Would you use your CCW to defend a stranger? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-29-2012, 14:23
I saw this story on another forum and wondered what some of the folks here would do in this situation


My wife and I were driving on a large six-lane road in a major city in the mid-west. A guy (late teens, early twenties) in a small pickup pulled in to traffic from a side road and kind of cut off another driver (also male, mid - late 30's) in an SUV. The SUV had to brake a little hard - but there was never any risk of an accident or anything. So the pickup changes to the middle or three lanes and the SUV changes behind him. Everyone comes to a stop at a red light. I'm in the left-most lane next to the SUV, the pickup is directly in front of the SUV - both in the center lane. There are about 6 - 7 cars in front of us, another 6 - 7 behind us (in each of the three lanes).

So the guy in the SUV, who easily has 6" and a 100lbs on the kid in the pickup, gets out of the SUV, walks up to the pickup's open window, and proceeds to beat the **** out of the kid. Both of his fists pulverizing this kid's face, bashing his head in to the steering wheel, blood everywhere. The kid can't go anywhere because there are cars on all sides of him and he can't even get his seat belt undone. People are out of their cars, screaming at this guy to stop but nobody wants to confront him - I would image because he's such a big guy. I thought about pulling my CCW but didn't because I didn't want to spend the next five years defending myself in court AND there was the risk of hitting another car if I missed.

So the light turned green, some cars pulled away, the guy got back in the SUV, cut hard in to the right lane (clipping the pickup) and took off. Cops showed up and so on, I gave a statement along with a bunch of other people, the kid was airlifted to the hospital (he was unconscious). A cop called about an hour ago - the kid is in critical condition - they arrested the guy in the SUV at his home without incident.

Note: I'm well versed in the laws of my state and can say with 100% certainty that I would not have been held criminally liable had I shot him.

What would you have done? Drawn your CCW? Used it? Gone for a rifle for a more accurate shot (if you keep one in your vehicle of course)? Intervened with pepper spray (again if you carry any)?

camelotkid
03-29-2012, 14:30
I'm a big guy I would have pulled him off the kid and sat on him...unless he was packing skittles then he would be shot on site.

NH Trucker
03-29-2012, 14:32
A tire iron (I have a breaker bar in my truck) across the back of the guy's knees would bring him down in a hurry, or pepper spray would be a good option. What's the saying? If all you have is a hammer then every task looks like a nail?


Yes, intervene. If I have another option other than my CCW, I'll use that first, and only use my CCW if I have no other option left.

mj9mm
03-29-2012, 14:32
someone has got to call 911, then he must be stopped, whether you have a gun or not, most of the time if one person jumps in others will follow and provide help:wavey:

chrisbritt15
03-29-2012, 14:32
Wow that would be a tough one for me, or for anyone, I mean if you did pull you CCW and stopped him, if the round would had over penatraded and hit someone else then you know they would have sued you. Tough call.

deathpriest
03-29-2012, 14:32
Hard to say. Have to be there. Stupid driving is no exuse for a beat down like that. I might've honk the horn to make him aware he is being watch. I might've peper spray the heck out of him and have my CCW on me. Really hard to say.

larry_minn
03-29-2012, 14:33
There really isn't a good answer to this one. What I would WANT to do, what I SHOULD do, and whats SAFE to do....
Ideally he should have had the window up, kept enough room infront of his pickup at stop to move around. (That heavy a traffic likely not to help)

If I am with family then I am calling 911/blowing horn max. By myself I might do more.

AK_Stick
03-29-2012, 14:37
I've got my rescue/aid bag in the back of the car, with several rescue tools that are perfectly suited for making someone cease attacking someone else.


But if I felt he was going to kill him, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot him.

dango
03-29-2012, 14:41
I'm Polish and not the sharpest tool in the shed . I would have got his plate No. and pulled the pistol , but I am stupid some times ?
I don't believe how big the guy was , a pistol is something to think about . I know , don't pull it unless you plan to use it .
I think this may have been the exception to the rule .
Now on the other hand , had the lug turned mid evil on me , bang and I use 230 .45 JHP so I'm not real worried about collateral damage.

Hairlesswookiee
03-29-2012, 14:42
That's a tough call. Like others have said, try getting the ass' attention until there's no other option left. Obviously he beat the kid bad enough to get airlifted so there's a chance he could've killed him.

SGT278ACR
03-29-2012, 14:45
I saw this story on another forum and wondered what some of the folks here would do in this situation



What would you have done? Drawn your CCW? Used it? Gone for a rifle for a more accurate shot (if you keep one in your vehicle of course)? Intervened with pepper spray (again if you carry any)?

I would have drawn as a show of force and ordered him to cease the assault, get down on the ground and instruct another bystander to call 911. Have the caller explain the incident and that there is a licensed armed citizen detaining the subject. Shoot only if he doesn't stop the assault on the victim (only if the back drop permits in the situation) or if he assaults me. I'd rather have to face litigations for 5 years than to live with the fact that I could have done something to help the victim and didn't. That's just me.

dango
03-29-2012, 14:45
There really isn't a good answer to this one. What I would WANT to do, what I SHOULD do, and whats SAFE to do....
Ideally he should have had the window up, kept enough room infront of his pickup at stop to move around. (That heavy a traffic likely not to help)

If I am with family then I am calling 911/blowing horn max. By myself I might do more.

The kid didn't see it coming and didn't have a chance.
And just cause you're having a bad day , hands off period !

GRIMLET
03-29-2012, 14:48
A swift downward strike to the center rear on both shoulder blades, supra scapula, would drop him to his knees.

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-29-2012, 14:52
I don't think horn honking and getting his attention would make much difference, people were already out of their cars shouting at the guy and it didn't stop him.

VinnieD
03-29-2012, 14:54
Intervening would have been best. Probably pepper spray for this situation, but be ready to switch to your gun if that didn't work. Given the disparity of force, and it legitimately looked like the assailant was intent on beating this kid to death, I think you can call disparity of force if you did shoot. At least in my state it's perfectly legal to also use a gun to defend another person from having a felony committed against them, regardless of relation or location.

dango
03-29-2012, 14:58
A swift downward strike to the center rear on both shoulder blades, supra scapula, would drop him to his knees.

Some of us are getting old and worn out . In my 20's ok , now there is a saying don't mess with an old man , he'll kill you .

frank4570
03-29-2012, 15:04
A very tough call. I would much prefer to hit the guy with a big tool or pepper spray, or kick one of his knees sideways as hard as I could.
A very tough situation.

tsmo1066
03-29-2012, 15:04
Unless it is something that is very extreme and absolutely clear-cut, like an aggravated rape in progress or a person using a lethal weapon on a child, I would likely not use my firearm in defense of a third party. It would also depend on whether I was alone or with my family. If armed intervention would likely place my wife or children in danger, no dice. Their safety trumps that of a stranger and my priority would be keeping my loved ones out of harm's way.

GRIMLET
03-29-2012, 15:05
But after verbal commands, hand strikes make a good effort of not going straight to lethal force.

Rabbi
03-29-2012, 15:05
Back of pants stuff cuffs, Call in location to 911, leave phone on and pull that ass off the kid.

Wasatch
03-29-2012, 15:06
In a word: Yes. Yes, I would.

DIXIE DUCK
03-29-2012, 15:14
Yes I would intervene. Couldn't live with myself if I watched a kid get killed while I sat there with a gun on my hip doing nothing because I was afraid of legal bs.

wjv
03-29-2012, 15:30
And what if you have your wife & kids in the car with you.

If you intervene, you better do so in a way that doesn't jut redirect his anger onto you and your family.

brausso
03-29-2012, 15:36
Drawn a firearm, no. Go toe to toe with biggie smalls, yes

clancy
03-29-2012, 15:46
I once saw a very similar situation. It is surprising how fast a J-frame revolver can drop someone when he is slammed in the back of the head with it.

Blaster
03-29-2012, 15:48
What happens when you find out the guy you just shot, yeah the guy beating the driver was trying to recover his kidnapped daughter who is tied up in the back?

MtBaldy
03-29-2012, 15:56
What happens when you find out the guy you just shot, yeah the guy beating the driver was trying to recover his kidnapped daughter who is tied up in the back?

Yep. I've thought about this and our CCW instructor even brought it up. There are people languishing in prison because they used deadly force and completely misread the situation. I would have intervened but my gun would have stayed in it's holster until there was a direct threat to me or mine. I think whipping out your phone and start videoing him while saying, "Hey *******! A copy of this is going to the cops on the way!", might deter him unless he's completely around the bend.

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-29-2012, 16:48
A swift downward strike to the center rear on both shoulder blades, supra scapula, would drop him to his knees.

I'm surprised by the number of people saying they'd attempt to engage an aggressive 6'6" 250+lb man hand to hand.

Are you really that confident in your ability to quickly and effectively take out someone like that? What if he laughs off your swift downward strike, turns around and knocks your a** out? Then you're the one taking the beating with no way to defend yourself. What if theres a struggle and he goes for your gun? What if the guy in the SUV had a buddy in his vehicle you didn't see?

I'm reminded of an interview I saw a while back with Frank Mir, a 260+lb professional MMA fighter, two time UFC Heavyweight Champion and current top 10 ranked heavyweight. He said that even though he knows that he could beat the **** out of 99.999% of people on this planet, he still carries a gun, knife and pepper stray and said that if he ever had to deal with an aggressor the first thing he'd do is reach for one of those first. You never know what can happen in a street fight, or how well armed or well trained your opponent is, or if he has a friend nearby who might step in and help him.

GRIMLET
03-29-2012, 16:50
I once saw a very similar situation. It is surprising how fast a J-frame revolver can drop someone when he is slammed in the back of the head with it.

EPIC FAIL!!!!!
Deadly force with a deadly weapon

GRIMLET
03-29-2012, 16:55
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they'd attempt to engage an aggressive 6'6" 250+lb man hand to hand.

Are you really that confident in your ability to quickly and effectively take out someone like that? What if he laughs off your swift downward strike, turns around and knocks your a** out? T.

I'm 6' 5" and weigh 279
The strike is very effective and is delivered from the rear.
Back up plan, rake my shoe/boot down the calf and break his stance. Shove into vehicle and grab either arm in a control hold as he falls.

Rabbi
03-29-2012, 16:57
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they'd attempt to engage an aggressive 6'6" 250+lb man hand to hand.

Are you really that confident in your ability to quickly and effectively take out someone like that? What if he laughs off your swift downward strike, turns around and knocks your a** out? Then you're the one taking the beating with no way to defend yourself. What if theres a struggle and he goes for your gun? What if the guy in the SUV had a buddy in his vehicle you didn't see?

I'm reminded of an interview I saw a while back with Frank Mir, a 260+lb professional MMA fighter, two time UFC Heavyweight Champion and current top 10 ranked heavyweight. He said that even though he knows that he could beat the **** out of 99.999% of people on this planet, he still carries a gun, knife and pepper stray and said that if he ever had to deal with an aggressor the first thing he'd do is reach for one of those first. You never know what can happen in a street fight, or how well armed or well trained your opponent is, or if he has a friend nearby who might step in and help him.

Your post doesnt say anything about the guy being 6'6" 250lbs. It just says he has 6" and 100 pounds ont he kid.

So which is it?

Second, getting into the fray is a part of the job for some poeple.

AK_Stick
03-29-2012, 17:02
This isn't hollywierd.


Guys do not just "laugh off" a well placed hit, unless they're high on something.

Rooster Rugburn
03-29-2012, 17:04
What would you have done? Drawn your CCW? Used it? Gone for a rifle for a more accurate shot (if you keep one in your vehicle of course)? Intervened with pepper spray (again if you carry any)?

Pepper spray. This and the Martin\Zimmerman situation are very good proof of the need to carry pepper spray in addition to your sidearm.

If you draw your weapon, you should be prepared to use it. If this guy had turned on you, what would you do? Shoot him? Take him into custody? Citizens arrest? Then you are going to be like Zimmerman. Shooting an unarmed man.

At every point in his attack, there was no knowledge of the outcome. You go up and shoot the unarmed guy, they can pin a charge on you. If you do it before any point of serious bodily injury, you acted improperly. If you do not kill the guy, he is going to say he was just slapping him around a little and wouldn't take it to that extreme. If you stopped the attack, there wouldn't have been serious bodily injury. So you shot a guy for breaking a nose and busting a lip.

The only saving grace in this for using a firearm is all the witnesses, and you were acting in defense of another.

Unless you know the guy being beaten was at a point of serious bodily injury, you are not justified in shooting. You may feel justified in hindsight because you know the outcome, but as soon as you shoot the guy, the victim will turn out to be only slightly injured.

It's a no win situation. The HCP has no authority behind it. All you can really do, aside from pepper spray, is be a good witness and regret seeing the situation.

Your first and most important responsibility is to protect yourself and your family. That means staying out of prison.


I know a nationally recognized trainer who wouldn't intervene in an abduction or rape. He says it is their responsibility to protect themselves.

It's a permit to carry for defense, not a LE badge.

I never road rage anyone because I know if they do something stupid to me, sooner or later they will do it to the wrong person. I've never seen a stretch of pavement that was worth killing or dying for.

Rabbi
03-29-2012, 17:04
This isn't hollywierd.


Guys do not just "laugh off" a well placed hit, unless they're high on something.

Some drunks can also absorb an impressive amount of damage.

Rooster Rugburn
03-29-2012, 17:05
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they'd attempt to engage an aggressive 6'6" 250+lb man hand to hand.


It's the internet, you can do that. You never have to back it up.

AK_Stick
03-29-2012, 17:07
Some drunks can also absorb an impressive amount of damage.



Also true.

dango
03-29-2012, 17:10
And what if you have your wife & kids in the car with you.

If you intervene, you better do so in a way that doesn't jut redirect his anger onto you and your family.

I think after a shot from a 45 , the fight is over.If my family
were with me ,even more so would I want my son to see the right thing to do.

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-29-2012, 17:20
Your post doesnt say anything about the guy being 6'6" 250lbs. It just says he has 6" and 100 pounds ont he kid.

So which is it?

Second, getting into the fray is a part of the job for some poeple.

My apologies, those numbers came from the OP later on in the discussion, my first post was just the OP's original statement on the incident :wavey:

Getting into the fray is certainly part of the job for some people, LEOs being the most obvious example, I'm simply trying to play devil's advocate by pointing out the inherent risks you undertake when you engage someone hand to hand. In my experience guys often overestimate their own skills when it comes to fighting. Thats one thing I've learned training in MMA over the last few years; there are guys I've trained with who to look at I never would've thought stood much chance against me, who I outweigh by 50lbs or more, but they could easily either knock me out or choke me out.

zoyter2
03-29-2012, 17:26
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they'd attempt to engage an aggressive 6'6" 250+lb man hand to hand.

..........................

It's GNG and you're surprised?!?! LMAO. What could you expect when every third person is or has been a stone cold highly trained professional killer, and the two oddballs that are wealthy enough to employ the other. :rofl::rofl:

Wasatch
03-29-2012, 17:28
Pepper spray. This and the Martin\Zimmerman situation are very good proof of the need to carry pepper spray in addition to your sidearm.


While pepper spray is a good option in some cases, I don't see how a spray could have benefited Zimmerman, who was reportedly on his back with Martin on top, beating him. Given the reports I've heard and read, it sounds like Zimmerman wasn't in a good position to use spray.

dango
03-29-2012, 17:30
It's GNG and you're surprised?!?! LMAO. What could you expect when every third person is or has been a stone cold highly trained professional killer, and the two oddballs that are not are wealthy enough to employ the other. :rofl::rofl:

One thing that got me to the ripe age that I am , I don't underestimate anybody . I'm sure there are many here more that capable and willing to do the right thing.

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-29-2012, 17:31
This isn't hollywierd.


Guys do not just "laugh off" a well placed hit, unless they're high on something.

For the most part no they don't, but some can, especially if theres alcohol or drugs involved, which in a sudden violent attack like this could be a possibility. Then of course theres the matter of landing that well placed hit, maybe he moves at the last second and you don't quite hit him cleanly, maybe you don't get all your power into your strike. Again I'm just playing devil's advocate here, pointing out that nothing is certain when you engage someone hand to hand

clancy
03-29-2012, 17:35
EPIC FAIL!!!!!
Deadly force with a deadly weapon

I think you may have misunderstood me. The guy wasn't shot, he was hit in the back of the head with the pistol. Ever see Goodfellas? Not at all unlike the scene where Ray Liotta smashes the guy's face with his S&W.

The one I saw dropped the guy cold.

RenegadeGlocker
03-29-2012, 17:35
What would you have done? Drawn your CCW? Used it? Gone for a rifle for a more accurate shot (if you keep one in your vehicle of course)? Intervened with pepper spray (again if you carry any)?

How do you know the kid did not pull a gun on the SUV driver and the SUV Driver is the victim?

How do you know the SUV Driver is NOT a cop?

How do you know the kid did not just kill his family?

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-29-2012, 17:40
Pepper spray.


I think pepper spray would be my first choice in this situation too

GRIMLET
03-29-2012, 17:49
I think you may have misunderstood me. The guy wasn't shot, he was hit in the back of the head with the pistol. Ever see Goodfellas? Not at all unlike the scene where Ray Liotta smashes the guy's face with his S&W.

The one I saw dropped the guy cold.

Oh, yes sir, I did understand you. Hitting someone over the head with a metal object is deadly force. The metal object is a deadly weapon. Even a pipe to the head is deadly force with a deadly weapon when used in that fashion.
Plus it is realllllyyyy ugly in court, pistol whipping.

Rooster Rugburn
03-29-2012, 17:52
While pepper spray is a good option in some cases, I don't see how a spray could have benefited Zimmerman, who was reportedly on his back with Martin on top, beating him. Given the reports I've heard and read, it sounds like Zimmerman wasn't in a good position to use spray.

You don't wait until you are on your back to use the spray. When Martin came over to attack Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have known he had a problem, and he should have had the pepper spray in his hand when he saw Martin approaching. If he had it in his hand, which he should have when this unknown suspicious thug he had been reporting to 911 approached him, he could have sprayed him before the first punch was thrown. Once Martin came within a few feet of Zimmerman, talking tough, Zimmerman could have sprayed him.

The beauty of pepper spray is that you have mulligans. The kid is not dead from the first blast. It's not like a gun in that if you have it out, you appear to be the aggressor. Hence the beauty of the non lethal option.

Rooster Rugburn
03-29-2012, 17:57
I think after a shot from a 45 , the fight is over.If my family were with me ,even more so would I want my son to see the right thing to do.

You shoot an unarmed man for going fisticuffs, your fight is just beginning.

When out with your family, you should leave your internet bravado at home.

But at least your son can bring you cartons of cigarettes to prison on visitation days.

Wasatch
03-29-2012, 18:14
You don't wait until you are on your back to use the spray. When Martin came over to attack Zimmerman, Zimmerman should have known he had a problem, and he should have had the pepper spray in his hand when he saw Martin approaching. If he had it in his hand, which he should have when this unknown suspicious thug he had been reporting to 911 approached him, he could have sprayed him before the first punch was thrown. Once Martin came within a few feet of Zimmerman, talking tough, Zimmerman could have sprayed him.

The beauty of pepper spray is that you have mulligans. The kid is not dead from the first blast. It's not like a gun in that if you have it out, you appear to be the aggressor. Hence the beauty of the non lethal option.

You make a very good point. Thanks.

lonewolf01
03-29-2012, 18:38
Tough situation...shoot/don't shoot. One of my biggest fears is being in that type of situation. Judgement is a big thing. If you misjudge, you're in prison and if you don't act someone's dead and you could have stopped it.

blackknight77
03-29-2012, 18:39
If this guy is focused on pummeling that kid in the car and not reacting to anyone's please to stop, a kick to the side of the knee would either dislocate or break but he would be on the ground. If he wants to try and get up then pull your piece (if pepper spray is not an option) finger out off the and advise him to sit still.

Just my thought process anyway....I'm 6'3" and always on guard about my knees so if someone the same size or larger is distracted in this type of situation knees are the first place I would use to drop him.

GRIMLET
03-29-2012, 18:51
Great scenario here. I encourage everyone to look around tomorrow and think about what if's. Then think about how you would, could, should react as a ccw.
If one is insecure/ unsure how to react, I suggest spending time with a local lawyer. They should discuss the use of force and its many liabilities. Maybe take a class on hand to hand.

Rodman24
03-29-2012, 19:16
C'mon this is 2012! I would record the incident on my iPhone and be the first to post it on Facebook and YouTube. Then I would tweet about all the people who tried to either choke the Hoss out or make the headshot. :D

concretefuzzynuts
03-30-2012, 08:14
I would not pull on an unarmed man assaulting another person. Here in Va. the law is clear about equal force for force. I don't want to end up in a cell tossing Dashaun's salad. I would however, get close enough to let him know I was calling the police and if i could persuade another bystander to help me, try to stop him. I'm 6'2" 235 lbs but going up against someone angry and pumped up with adrenaline is an uncertain outcome. No sense in me going to the hospital too.

gjk5
03-30-2012, 08:57
rear naked choke the guy and administer first aid to the kid with my nifty TapouT First Aid Kit.

Dan_ntx
03-30-2012, 09:38
While pepper spray is a good option in some cases, I don't see how a spray could have benefited Zimmerman, who was reportedly on his back with Martin on top, beating him. Given the reports I've heard and read, it sounds like Zimmerman wasn't in a good position to use spray.

I think the point is that he didn't just end up in that bad position...he had a lot of opportunities in different positions where different actions may have altered the position he found himself in ultimately.

I'm not trying to armchair quarterback Zimmerman... I am trying to encourage everyone to have a plan and act on it before you become part of someone else's plan if possible.

BleedNOrange
03-30-2012, 10:24
EPIC FAIL!!!!!
Deadly force with a deadly weapon
BINGO !! You beat me to it. Its not actually the metal object that makes it deadly force though. Its the object itself(gun).

larry_minn
03-30-2012, 10:58
I guess I still have to stick with. If with family do little other then 911, horn,lic stuff. I would feel bad about youth.

IF alone I still might check other options. A 9mm to head is NOT even close to list. Crowding him with my truck (if situation allows) is. IF his SUV is infront of me I might just go 4wd and move it. (and drive off, I assume with him following me) I will use force to get OUT of a dangerous situation. Fenders, bumpers are repairable.

Creatism
03-30-2012, 11:04
I would have not used my ccw, fear of collateral damage, tire iron to the back of the knees, call 911 and let him go if he wants, get all information to be a good witness!


Typed from my iPhone.

BleedNOrange
03-30-2012, 11:11
I would approach the guy and tell him verbally to stop. (if he was trying to rescue his kidnapped kid as others say I'm sure he would say so). If he continued to beat the kid and it was obvious the kid was unconcious then I would indeed shoot. Assuming of course I had a clear line of fire (backdrop etc) At the end of the day I'd ask myself "what if that was my son getting beat". With that in mind doing nothing but calling 911 isnt an option. Quick side note...as others have said....If I could get a good kick, punch etc in while he was distracted I would do so.

GRIMLET
03-30-2012, 11:34
BINGO !! You beat me to it. Its not actually the metal object that makes it deadly force though. Its the object itself(gun).

Its a deadly weapon being a firearm.
Beating someone about the head with an instrument which is likely to cause death makes that item a deadly weapon.

Its twice a deadly weapon.

bear62
03-30-2012, 11:35
What if the stranger was wearing an "Obama Yes We Can" T-shirt? What to do, what to do..........:dunno::dunno:

frank4570
03-30-2012, 11:43
I think after a shot from a 45 , the fight is over.

Sure, if it goes through the spine. If it punches a hole in muscle, maybe not.
There is a video around someplace of a big guy who shoots himself through the bicep with a glock 40 just to do it. He laughs it off, and he updates a week later with the wound healing up. Never even went to a doctor.

Found it. Warning, a bit graphic. http ://www.liveleak.com/view?i=591_1250131811

I put a space after the http so that it would not automatically become a video that everybody would see.

glockaviator
03-31-2012, 10:04
Best answer I've heard is to video tape it.

Warp
03-31-2012, 10:59
I saw this story on another forum and wondered what some of the folks here would do in this situation



What would you have done? Drawn your CCW? Used it? Gone for a rifle for a more accurate shot (if you keep one in your vehicle of course)? Intervened with pepper spray (again if you carry any)?

That as a likely first response.

Angry Fist
03-31-2012, 11:06
Shoot the ****er.

Warp
03-31-2012, 11:13
Shoot the ****er.

Assuming the shooter takes the necessary care regarding his backstop, etc, I would probably be thankful somebody did so

Angry Fist
03-31-2012, 11:14
Sounds like one of those deals where you can actually get close enough for a safe shoot.

ballr4lyf
03-31-2012, 13:06
Sounds like a good question for Mas at the GATE forums.

Jake Starr
03-31-2012, 13:49
Note: I'm well versed in the laws of my state and can say with 100% certainty that I would not have been held criminally liable had I shot him.

uh, huh. :rofl:

D3S3RT_P3NGU1N
03-31-2012, 14:50
Sounds like a good question for Mas at the GATE forums.

Good idea, I just posted it there :wavey:

huggytree
04-01-2012, 13:57
i dont think you can legally do anything until the kids life is in danger......thats a hard one to determine

i was taught that if someone is beating me up that there's almost no point at which i can fire my gun.....if the guy climbed inside the kids car the kid may have been able to legally kill him(castle law), but i dont think you as a bystander can enforce the kids castle law

i would have called 911 and done nothing.....it wasnt me or my family....getting involved could put you in jail or lose everything you own (sued).....you would risk your family being without a Father or living under a bridge to help a stranger...

lets say you Kill the guy....the killing is border line legal...you end up losing your house and your savings trying to defend yourself in court....you sleep good at night knowing you did the right thing huh?.....while your family has nothing and has to start over...you work until you die (no retirement)......wow it was worth it?

CTM_357
04-01-2012, 14:12
I'm surprised by the number of people saying they'd attempt to engage an aggressive 6'6" 250+lb man hand to hand.

Are you really that confident in your ability to quickly and effectively take out someone like that? What if he laughs off your swift downward strike, turns around and knocks your a** out? Then you're the one taking the beating with no way to defend yourself. What if theres a struggle and he goes for your gun? What if the guy in the SUV had a buddy in his vehicle you didn't see?

I'm reminded of an interview I saw a while back with Frank Mir, a 260+lb professional MMA fighter, two time UFC Heavyweight Champion and current top 10 ranked heavyweight. He said that even though he knows that he could beat the **** out of 99.999% of people on this planet, he still carries a gun, knife and pepper stray and said that if he ever had to deal with an aggressor the first thing he'd do is reach for one of those first. You never know what can happen in a street fight, or how well armed or well trained your opponent is, or if he has a friend nearby who might step in and help him.


The outcome of going toe to toe with this guy may not be nice, but the destraction of fighting with someone else may have gave the kid a chance to actually get out of his car and defend himself.

Warp
04-01-2012, 14:17
i dont think you can legally do anything until the kids life is in danger......thats a hard one to determine

Depends on the state.

In my states "serious bodily harm", or a similar phrase, comes into play...and based on the OP it definitely sounds like serious bodily harm. Or "forcible felony"

steveksux
04-01-2012, 14:20
Depends on the state.

In my states "serious bodily harm", or a similar phrase, comes into play...and based on the OP it definitely sounds like serious bodily harm. Or "forcible felony"

Same in Michigan. You can "step into the shoes" of the victim and defend them. At least in my CCW class, they said when defending yourself, reasonable man standard applies. But when defending others, you damn well better be RIGHT, not just reasonable. Not sure if that's the legal requirement here or just prudent advice...

I pray for clarity if God forbid I ever end up in a potential situation like that.

Randy

kikr
04-01-2012, 14:35
Yeah, If my kids are with me it's a 911 call and moving on down the road. If i'm by myself i'd have front sighting the guy...

iiibbb
04-01-2012, 14:48
I am disinclined to use my CCW. I have it to protect myself and my family. If I intervene and misread the situation --- I stand to lose it.

This particular situation sounds like a very good way to loose your CCW. Deadly force because someone is giving another guy a beating through a truck window. I'm amazed the teen sustained as much damage as he did--- but at the end of the day--- the teen isn't dead, and it would have put my CCW at risk in a fickle system

SCmasterblaster
04-01-2012, 15:03
If I saw an obviously innocent woman being beaten half to death, I'd shoot the attacker to death for sure. But it would have to be convincingly obvious before I'd get out my G17.

TankerMax
04-01-2012, 15:40
While you do NOT have a "duty to act" in this instance, seeing the way things played out gives you a sense of the context of the assault. The kid came into traffic ahead of the vehicle driven by the offender. You, the original poster, had presumably been behind the offender's vehicle in traffic long enough to presume the offender wasn't defending himself or a kidnapped family member. Also the fact that the offender may be a police officer isn't relevant except that he may be concealing an off duty weapon. If he is a police officer he is committing an assault, not acting in a way which would be considered legal and officious.

I have a weapon and a CHL to defend myself, my loved ones and innocent victims of crime in my presence. I refer to my state's code.

RCW 9A.16.050Homicide — By other person — When justifiable. Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:
(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
In addition, case law in Washington has stated:
It is lawful for a person who is in a place where that person has a right to be and who has reasonable grounds for believing that he is being attacked to stand his ground and defend against such attack by use of lawful force. The law does not impose a duty to retreat.

Also just because you pull a weapon doesn't mean you must fire it. The mere presence of a firearm may be enough to stop the assault. However if that isn't the case then I am prepared to use it.

I would be very careful were I to find myself in this situation. Unlike Zimmerman who was an active participant in the encounter, this is unfolding in front of you. You will be judged by the actions you take. It behooves you to be judicious in the choices you make.

wuvmyglock
04-01-2012, 15:51
Hard to say for sure without being actually being there... Being there were so many people around a center mass shot may have been unsafe.. However... Kneecaps make nice targets :)

rallenal
04-01-2012, 15:57
I am not a police officer. I carry a weapon to protect me and mine.
To protect others, I have a cell phone. One of the hardest things about intervening in another's fight whether with deadly force or lesser force is figuring out what is actually going on. This is why police officers train on shoot-don't shoot simulators. Try a few scenarios on one of those and see if you are still so confident about intervening in a situation.

NEOH212
04-01-2012, 17:41
I would have done nothing. My firearm is for protecting me. The police aren't obligated to protect people so why should I?

Each persons personal protection is on them. In the case of defending a child, that's up to the parent(s).

Maybe if we didn't live in such a litigious society where no good deed goes unpunished, and where some jerk county prosecutor wasn't trying to make a name for himself by hanging the good guy I would feel differently. Until then my answer is no.

Tiro Fijo
04-01-2012, 17:53
So, if you saw Hillary Clinton, Rosie O'Donnell, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein & Barbara Boxer going at it with Bowie knives in a "Pentagon of Death" would you intervene? :whistling:


:rofl:

Angry Fist
04-01-2012, 17:56
So, if you saw Hillary Clinton, Rosie O'Donnell, Nancy Pelosi, Diane Feinstein & Barbara Boxer going at it with Bowie knives in a "Pentagon of Death" would you intervene? :whistling:


:rofl:
With a Molotov, in a heartbeat. :patriot:

svtpwnz
04-01-2012, 18:14
I think after a shot from a 45 , the fight is over.If my family
were with me ,even more so would I want my son to see the right thing to do.

A local 17 year old here took 8 shots of .45 from the police officer he pointed his Highpoint at and survived. This is a very tough call but I would pepper spray the road rage guy first to try and stop him from assulting the other driver. However, you then have to worry about RR guy redirecting his anger to you. At that time I would have to draw my weapon and hope he realizes he stands a chance of getting killed.