155gr Gold Dots over XTPs in popularity ? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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preventec47
04-02-2012, 09:21
It seems like the consensus preference is the Gold Dots
in that weight range based on recent posts and testing etc.
Is that deserved ? Or is it based on the mission ? What I have
concluded from all the info posted is that the XTPs are
the tougher bullet in 155gr and thusly should outperform
at very high velocities by holding together better and
at lower velocities the Gold Dots expand more.
Is that what most everyone else has concluded ?

I am not a pistol hunter and 155gr to me is the best
overall compromise for Self Defense.

Andrew Wiggin
04-02-2012, 10:45
I'm pretty new to the 10mm and I can't speak for anyone else. The XTP has a general reputation - across calibers and weights - of doing poorly through clothing and barriers. The GDHP is very well regarded for opening well through clothing and doing very well through barriers. It is one of the best regarded JHPs on the market. Some folks argue that it over expands at 10mm velocity but I think that the pictures below disprove that. It is a 155gr GDHP I fired through water at approximately 1,375fps. I think the XTP is a lot more useful in heavier weights for animal defense and hunting. In that application the barrier and clothing performance is irrelevant and its tough construction is even more important. I'll be carrying 200gr XTPs this summer in rim country.


http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/610/dsc03043hi.jpg


http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/763/dsc03044xe.jpg

gofastman
04-02-2012, 17:00
The XTP has a general reputation - across calibers and weights - of doing poorly through clothing and barriers.
I would agree with this when compairing modern self defence bullets like the Tac-XP, GD, HST, etc.

But I would guess that they are at least as good as something like a Hydra-shok or a Silver tip.

XTP's bullets appear to like velocity, despite the manner that Hornady manufactures their ammo.


What I have
concluded from all the info posted is that the XTPs are
the tougher bullet in 155gr and thusly should outperform
at very high velocities by holding together better and
at lower velocities the Gold Dots expand more.
Is that what most everyone else has concluded ?
yes
if you want the most nuclear load possible while still retaining weigh, the XTP is probably the better choice.
if you are preferential to what would be considered nuclear .40s&w velocity (1300fps?), the GD is probably better.
FWIW, Speer has a top speed of 1320 fps for the 155 in their manual. 1344 for the 165. When I spoke to a Speer tech, he indicated that the published max velocity was at the upper end of the velocity design window. That might be why the 155 is listed at a lower velocity than the 165.

preventec47
04-02-2012, 17:15
There is mention of "general reputation" of XTP poor performance
through clothing and barriers but I cant find anywhere on Glocktalk
where performance in water or wax or gel shows any poor performance.
That is why I am asking.
I was just trying to make sure we were not making decisions on heresay.
No question the GoldDots look great but at that highest
velocity where the petals are peeling off in wax and water,
how do the XTPs fare ? I know just about everything
has been covered in Glock Talk but I cant find it.
Scott in Atlanta

JPP
04-02-2012, 19:05
XTP are less expensive, always available and they shoot great

Taterhead
04-02-2012, 20:06
I would have no problems running either of them in a SD situation. Both have strengths and weaknesses.

Andrew Wiggin
04-03-2012, 11:21
A quick Google search yields a few tests where XTP did very poorly against denim, with little or no expansion and excessive penetration. It's not hearsay at all, it is fairly well established that XTPs are sub optimal performers against heavy clothing. They are also less effective against barriers than other modern JHPs. I agree that they are probably no WORSE than obsolete designs such as Hydrashok but I wouldn't intentionally choose them for defense against two legged critters.

As I mentioned, I think GDHP is plenty tough at 10mm velocity, despite Speer's recommendation. 21Carrier's tests as well as my own informal water jug "test" both indicate the bullets are plenty tough. Several of the other bullets he tested did well and if you are really concerned about the bullet holding together, use an all copper such as the TAC-XP.

For my purposes, I intend to carry either 155gr or 165gr GDHP (once I determine penetration depth) in town and 200gr XTP for defense against the smallish bear we have in AZ. The XTP is a fantastic bullet when barrier and clothing isn't a concern.

JPP
04-03-2012, 20:57
A quick Google search yields a few tests where XTP did very poorly against denim, with little or no expansion and excessive penetration. It's not hearsay at all, it is fairly well established that XTPs are sub optimal performers against heavy clothing. They are also less effective against barriers than other modern JHPs. I agree that they are probably no WORSE than obsolete designs such as Hydrashok but I wouldn't intentionally choose them for defense against two legged critters.

As I mentioned, I think GDHP is plenty tough at 10mm velocity, despite Speer's recommendation. 21Carrier's tests as well as my own informal water jug "test" both indicate the bullets are plenty tough. Several of the other bullets he tested did well and if you are really concerned about the bullet holding together, use an all copper such as the TAC-XP.

For my purposes, I intend to carry either 155gr or 165gr GDHP (once I determine penetration depth) in town and 200gr XTP for defense against the smallish bear we have in AZ. The XTP is a fantastic bullet when barrier and clothing isn't a concern.

so you are saying you would trust XTP against bears.....but not trust XTP to penetrate jeans?

ryangt
04-03-2012, 23:43
As long as the bears don't wear jeans!

On a serious note, I always looked at the xtp as more of a bonded hunting round than a street load.

Andrew Wiggin
04-04-2012, 09:56
Yes, actually. First off, penetration is tantamount when discussing bear defense. And as ryangt mentioned, bears aren't in the habit of wearing jeans. Except for Smoky, but he's a nice guy.

The XTP is a great bullet that works really well in bare gel. As I've said, it's not good through barriers or thick clothing. It's also on a very short list of JHPs in that weight range.

gofastman
04-04-2012, 21:17
I have a feeling the faster you push an XTP the better it will perform against clothing. Perhaps because you increase the chance to build up hydraulic pressure in the cavity, maybe thats why Hornady's SLOW loadings of their XTP's do so poorly in testing.
Im just thinking out-loud though and have no real data to back this up

preventec47
04-04-2012, 22:15
I am considering filling the nose hollow point up with
silicone caulk in all my hollow point bullets. It would
be similar to all the other plastic tip bullets but without
the point. It probably would not add more than a grain
or two but would certainly keep the hole from filling
up with other stuff. The slight possibility I guess might
be that being filled up with silicone would be worse
than with clothing. Nah not really, too much trouble.
Neat idea though I think. I am surprised we have not
seen any mfg do it already

Ethereal Killer
04-05-2012, 08:09
so you are saying you would trust XTP against bears.....but not trust XTP to penetrate jeans?

that is an oversimplification of what he said. he said that XTP do not EXPAND thru some barriers at the velocities tested. they tended to clog up and thus just act like and FMJ.

For SD use at normal velocities the Gold Dots are top notch, but at 10mm velocities they tend to overexpand and then overpenetrate and thus perform better at lower velocities than higher velocities

Ethereal Killer
04-05-2012, 08:13
I concur with andrew wiggin. he's correctly described what's goiing on with the two bullets to my knowledge.

take a look at hornady's velocity range reccomendations for the XTP bullets here... http://www.hornady.com/assets/files/catalog/2009/19-22_bullets_handgun.pdf

if these are true then the 180gr looks to be ideal for use in a 10mm at higher velocities.

cowboy1964
04-05-2012, 11:03
I am considering filling the nose hollow point up with
silicone caulk in all my hollow point bullets. It would
be similar to all the other plastic tip bullets but without
the point. It probably would not add more than a grain
or two but would certainly keep the hole from filling
up with other stuff. The slight possibility I guess might
be that being filled up with silicone would be worse
than with clothing. Nah not really, too much trouble.
Neat idea though I think. I am surprised we have not
seen any mfg do it already

I'm sure they've tried many different things. They go with what works.

Andrew Wiggin
04-05-2012, 11:06
gofastman and preventec47: Good ideas. Why not test them through some old jeans into water?

Ethereal Killer: I think you mean that the GDs would under penetrate when over expanded. My own water test showed less penetration than I expected from 21Carrier's wax test. I wish there were more data available.

I'm concerned about over penetration with 180gr bullets.

Ethereal Killer
04-05-2012, 18:37
Ethereal Killer: I think you mean that the GDs would under penetrate when over expanded. My own water test showed less penetration than I expected from 21Carrier's wax test. I wish there were more data available.


depends on impact velocity and energy.

if it holds together the petals wrap back against the body of the bullet and it thus has less surface area but still retains the energy, thus it tends to over penetrate.

If it fragments completely then it should under penetrate.

As to silicon noses, Hornady has that on their current generation of premium self defense bullets called the Critical defense. Others have tried it in the past with limited success. I think it's a worthwhile thing to try myself, but one would have to look at the velocities that teh bullet was designed for.

for instance, we might see the 200gr XTP respond really well to a silicon nose plug, where the 180gr didnt.

If we are to believe that Hornady's suggested velocities listed in the link i provided above, are good, AND that the faster you drive it within it's operational range the more it expands, THEN the 180gr XTP is about the perfect 10mm bullet, as the extra speed the 10mm provides can be used towards both expansion AND penetration, giving us ideal woods gun and a dern decent bullet for peoples too.

IF we were to run those jean tests with a 180XTP at say 1250 and it didnt clog then we'd basically have our answer. If it did clog then maybe the silicon might work (assuming it didnt act like a pre-clogged projectile). If neither of those worked then we are stuck with just a decent penetrating woods load.

gofastman
04-05-2012, 20:19
I'm guessing the "plug" in the Critical Defence ammo is a very low durometer (like 20A low) urethane, not silicone
but hey, it never hurts to try! be safe doing it though.





sorry to be pedantic, but SiliCON is a crystalline element found in nature,
SiliCONE is usually rubbery goop that is made from polymers containing silicon
OK I'm done venting now :soap: :supergrin:

gofastman
04-05-2012, 20:25
double post

blastfact
04-05-2012, 23:24
90% of my loaded up ammo is XPT's. They do have to be driven on the warm side to be effective. And I have never seen any barrier or clothing issues with my testing and shooting.

And I shoot a lot of XTP's. I can afford to plink, drill, target shoot with the round I'm going to use on a bad guy if it ever happens. Reloading allows me this shooting luxury as I see.

The bullets have a fantastic bearing surface. And loaded up right are very accurate. My new M&P9 took this harddrive out at 10 yards on it's very first mag NIB-Cleaned with 124gn XTP's over 4.3gn of TightGroup. A load setup for my PF-9. The first five rounds took out the Western Digital Bull off hand. The other 12 all hit the HD. First Mag with a new pistol.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/mp9t.jpg

I like XTP's! :)

Edit: OOO ,,,, and there great 10mm bullets, , , snicker. :)

robert91922
04-06-2012, 02:11
And hard disk is low level formatted now for sure, nobody can steal data from it :rofl:

I like XTP's too, 200 grainers are my woods carry ammo :thumbsup:

Andrew Wiggin
04-06-2012, 13:48
depends on impact velocity and energy.

if it holds together the petals wrap back against the body of the bullet and it thus has less surface area but still retains the energy, thus it tends to over penetrate.

If it fragments completely then it should under penetrate.



Ok, gotcha. Thought it was a typo.

Andrew Wiggin
04-06-2012, 13:52
90% of my loaded up ammo is XPT's. They do have to be driven on the warm side to be effective. And I have never seen any barrier or clothing issues with my testing and shooting.

And I shoot a lot of XTP's. I can afford to plink, drill, target shoot with the round I'm going to use on a bad guy if it ever happens. Reloading allows me this shooting luxury as I see.

The bullets have a fantastic bearing surface. And loaded up right are very accurate. My new M&P9 took this harddrive out at 10 yards on it's very first mag NIB-Cleaned with 124gn XTP's over 4.3gn of TightGroup. A load setup for my PF-9. The first five rounds took out the Western Digital Bull off hand. The other 12 all hit the HD. First Mag with a new pistol.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/mp9t.jpg

I like XTP's! :)

Edit: OOO ,,,, and there great 10mm bullets, , , snicker. :)


Not trying to be a jerk but HDDs are not ballistic gel and the bullets pictured aren't expanded so much as smooshed. I've seen several independent tests of XTPs into gel or water after passing through denim, drywall, sheet metal, etc. The results were less than impressive. I'd like to work up a woods load with 200gr XTP and 800X so maybe I'll do my own test. Can you fill us in on the details of the denim tests you've done?

Ethereal Killer
04-06-2012, 21:05
I'm guessing the "plug" in the Critical Defence ammo is a very low durometer (like 20A low) urethane, not silicone
but hey, it never hurts to try! be safe doing it though.





sorry to be pedantic, but SiliCON is a crystalline element found in nature,
SiliCONE is usually rubbery goop that is made from polymers containing silicon
OK I'm done venting now :soap: :supergrin:

I never put that together before. thank you for edjumacating me!!

I use silicone all the time actually but have been spelling it wrong. oops!:whistling:

preventec47
04-07-2012, 02:13
BTW, did you guys see the youtube video where the 10mm
guy was testing a variety of 10mm loads from Glock to
see which penetrated sheet metal best ? Surprisingly
only the very fast 135 and 150/155 gr loads penetrated
the sheet metal. The larger slower FMJ types ( 180/200)
etc all flattened and made big dimples in the metal.

My money would have been on the large FMJs but I would
have lost my money.

Andrew Wiggin
04-07-2012, 10:17
I did not but that is consistent with my experience with rifle ammo. Velocity seems to be the biggest factor in metal penetration.

ETA: assuming other factors are roughly equal, of course. Sectional density is also a big factor, but doesn't seem to be as important as velocity.

blastfact
04-07-2012, 11:30
Not trying to be a jerk but HDDs are not ballistic gel and the bullets pictured aren't expanded so much as smooshed. I've seen several independent tests of XTPs into gel or water after passing through denim, drywall, sheet metal, etc. The results were less than impressive. I'd like to work up a woods load with 200gr XTP and 800X so maybe I'll do my own test. Can you fill us in on the details of the denim tests you've done?

The HD wasn't a test. It was the target for firing the first 17 rounds of my new 9mm. The ammo just happened to be what I carry and shoot in my PF-9.

And your far from being a jerk. :)

I again have never had any issues with XTP's concerning any media I've shot them into. I gave up on informal testing years ago. It became clear I could never duplicate what would happen to a bullet in a gun fight.

I do have access to other info that's not available to the average joe on the street or even in the know when it comes to the aftermath of a shooting. I once worked at a metro downtown hospital in my area. And still have a very close relationship with this hospital and staff. From administration to house keeping, doc's, nurse's and techs. Seeing that this is a teaching hospital they have a medical library that is always growing. And a collection of bullet's and surrounding tissue and organs that's very impressive. And have seen the damage first hand that projectiles do to the human structure. From the ER, Surgical efforts to the morgue.

Bottom line: You can't predict what a bullet is going to do in or around the human body. You can get a lab coat out, wear a pocket protector and have a farm of the most advance computers and software the world has ever seen and enough gel to render a nuke useless. And all you will get is a SPEC result.

A few examples:

A man I've known since the 5th grade. We grew up together. Learned to shoot, reload and hunted together. He did everything at a very high level. If it wasn't perfect. It was not right. He decided to kill himself one day. Should be a easy task for him. Out comes a K-Frame Smith loaded with +P .38 Gold Dots, 158gn. That round should do it. Didn't, Blew a hole the size of a silver dollar in his forehead and only scramble one square inch of his frontal lobe. One would have thought the load would have turned his brain into pink slime. First thought was it was a squib or light load. Setting right next to him was a fresh box of 50 of his reloads, plus the other 5 rounds in the pistol. The investigation showed he had a very thick forehead bone structure and that his rounds where in good shape.

Another case involves a employee of the hospital I worked at. By day he was a lead man on house keeping staff. By night he was a leader of a local Crip Click. On a Sunday evening he had been detained by the local PD. Was in cuffs standing next to the detaining officer when a Blood ran up on the pair and shot Rodney in the chest with a sawed off pistol gripped .22 mag bolt action rifle. That round blew a hole completely through his chest big enough to put your fist through him, without touching him. I saw his remains with my own eyes and read the police info in the file Monday when I came to work. Explain that with gel and common knowledge.

For me I can buy XTP's anywhere. Load them how I want and can afford to practice, plink and drill with a bullet I can use if I ever need to. I can't do that with Gold Dot's. 95% of my past, current and future loaded up ammo is SD, HD and offensively ready for action.

It's all a crap shoot!

Ethereal Killer
04-07-2012, 22:52
BTW, did you guys see the youtube video where the 10mm
guy was testing a variety of 10mm loads from Glock to
see which penetrated sheet metal best ? Surprisingly
only the very fast 135 and 150/155 gr loads penetrated
the sheet metal. The larger slower FMJ types ( 180/200)
etc all flattened and made big dimples in the metal.

My money would have been on the large FMJs but I would
have lost my money.


speed is almost always the key to getting thru steel.

the other way is to make a projectile that is harder than the steel you are trying to penetrate, but even then speed is still vital.

for everything else the ability to retain momentum is the key factor. (ie. weight)

Andrew Wiggin
04-09-2012, 10:43
The funny thing about people like this is that they actually think people believe their BS, rather than simply write off everything else they say in the future as utter bat guano.

countrygun
04-09-2012, 11:43
You can tailor a test medium to prove almost any theory you want. Just like the "caliber wars" in general. If you crystal ball works well enough to tell you what the "Perfect gun/caliber/load" would be, the crystal ball should tell you to stay out of the situation in the first place. Everyone makes their choice based on their perceived need and what concerns them the most. Those who are unfortunate enough to "see the Elephant" generally end up making their choice work for something other than what they had in mind.

Andrew Wiggin
04-09-2012, 14:10
The point of test media, gel in particular, is objective, repeatable data. "Tailoring" the media produces NO useful information.

stevewonderful
04-09-2013, 11:04
I am considering filling the nose hollow point up with
silicone caulk in all my hollow point bullets. It would
be similar to all the other plastic tip bullets but without
the point. It probably would not add more than a grain
or two but would certainly keep the hole from filling
up with other stuff. The slight possibility I guess might
be that being filled up with silicone would be worse
than with clothing. Nah not really, too much trouble.
Neat idea though I think. I am surprised we have not
seen any mfg do it already

The following is from a thread about that very subject. (no mention of XTP's though)

"I beg your pardon but in my own experience, this method does work. UMC 45 JHP are nearly incapable of expanding under any circumstances, I've witnessed them fall out of a walking talking GSW victim. The umc jhp 45 literally fell out of the hole in his portly side, completely pristine and undeformed.
Recently bought a box because they were cheap at walmart, value pack. Also picked up a tube of RTV Silicone. I painstakingly filled and wiped all the rounds tips flush. After theyd cured into semi flexible polymer tips, I went to the range and began shooting into wet phonebooks, mud and water jugs, all expanded to the size of deer slugs. The couple I didnt modify failed to expand at all. test gun was a glock 21 gen 4.
I went to work on my T series ammo after that, using a small syringe to fill the tiny 9mm cavity. Ranger T ammo would be perfect if not for its Denim nemmisis. Well, after making the upgrade, I placed a folded pair of old wranglers over a 5gal bucket of mud and fired into it with a Glock 26. the perfectly expanded razor sharp petaled flower was in the dirt just behind the bucket.
So I repeated the silicone filling procedure until I had done all my gold dots, t series, berrys hp and every other hp round I could find, All have behaved like Critical Defense rounds but their specialty jacket design still performed as designed, sort of the icing on the cake. Its onl a matter of time before every major defensive load comes standard with a silicone denim guard plug in it, much like how the polymer tip took over in the rifle ammo market. your mileage will not vary, but don't take my word for it, go make some for yourself, one $4 tube of RTV SILICONE will fill over 1000 rounds. but itll take awhile."

"I use Permatex red RTV (rated to 650 degrees) in Golden Sabre Bonded and it's works very well. I cannot say that this ammo does not work well without the RTV. I beleive they do work very well but the RTV provides a little extra assurance
in winter when heavy clothing is common."

http://www.handgunforum.net/home-defense-target-ammunition/30203-silicone-plugging-hollow-points.html

Andrew Wiggin
04-09-2013, 12:15
I don't know where that guy got the idea that Ranger-Ts or Gold Dots have difficulty with denim.