Alaska gun stores say ATF engaging in new illegal activity [Archive] - Glock Talk

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snerd
04-05-2012, 12:47
It will never end until this rogue agency is disbanded.

Form 4473 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_4473) is the official form that gun stores require customers to complete when they purchase a firearm. It is not intended to be a gun registration form but a sales record containing information on who bought the firearm, a photo I.D., and the official background check. The store owner then records this data in what is called 'the bound-book,' which is kept in perpetuity by the gun store and submitted to the ATF if the shop goes out of business.

The ATF has the authority to inspect or request a copy of the form if agents are conducting a criminal investigation.

But nowhere does the law or the rules and regulations of the ATF permit the agency to require gun stores to simply turn over these records en mass as a matter of course.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Alaska gun stores say ATF engaging in new illegal activity - National Conservative | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/alaska-gun-stores-say-atf-engaging-new-illegal-activity#ixzz1rC2LeTWP) http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/alaska-gun-stores-say-atf-engaging-new-illegal-activity#ixzz1rC2LeTWP

Javelin
04-05-2012, 14:43
Nice!

I hope the ATF gets their asses handed to them. I know in Texas and other states the ATF requires they be sent forms if a gun owner is purchasing more than 1 pistol at a time even if the person has a CHL.

Where is the law that gives them this power?

Javelin
04-05-2012, 14:44
BTW: If you buy more than 1 pistol at a time the ATF places you on a special little list.

Just FYI. Another special government list that we have come to take as the 'norm' here in the US. So sad.

CitizenOfDreams
04-05-2012, 15:09
Where is the law that gives them this power?

The same law that gave us many other atrocities. The Interstate Commerce Clause.

Angry Fist
04-05-2012, 15:12
BTW: If you buy more than 1 pistol at a time the ATF places you on a special little list.

Just FYI. Another special government list that we have come to take as the 'norm' here in the US. So sad.
The list is meaningless. Being on it won't stop you from doing anything.

Javelin
04-05-2012, 15:16
The list is meaningless. Being on it won't stop you from doing anything.

Agreed. It is meaningless so they should stop doing it.

Ruble Noon
04-05-2012, 15:18
Romney will fix this.

porschedog
04-05-2012, 15:26
Just One More Reason to Vote for Anybody but Opie in 2012

RCP
04-05-2012, 17:31
Romney will fix this.

:rofl:

Javelin
04-05-2012, 17:32
Romney will fix this.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Gundude
04-05-2012, 18:14
Just One More Reason to Vote for Anybody but Opie in 2012
How so? Will "Anybody but Opie" fix anything?

Kingarthurhk
04-05-2012, 18:33
How is this even new? That is they way it worked 23 years or more ago when my dad had an FFL. They reserve the right to inspect your records to make sure they are properly filled out. They reserve the right to come check your inventory. I don't see how any of this is a brand new revelation.

coastal4974
04-05-2012, 18:43
Probably won’t “fix” anything but not as likely to break more.

When given the choice of voting for a Bush liberal or a Karl Marx radical, I guess I have to go with the liberal.

It would appear that we are in too deep to surface quickly. Our capitalism and freedoms have been dissolving the deeper into Socialism we have gone. Our system needs to allow time for the socialism to come out slowly.

certifiedfunds
04-05-2012, 19:53
But, but, but, we just had a flurry of people over on the other thread insisting that the BATFE folks were good guys and just keeping the guns out of the hands of dangerous criminals.

How could this be?

stevelyn
04-05-2012, 21:40
Waffen BATFEces thugs just bein' waffen BATFEces thugs.

But nowhere does the law or the rules and regulations of the ATF permit the agency to require gun stores to simply turn over these records en mass as a matter of course.

They don't have to. They'll just do what they always do and make **** up as they go along. :steamed:

Big Mad Dawg
04-05-2012, 23:03
How so? Will "Anybody but Opie" fix anything?

This happened under the obama watch or are you going to claim it is Bush’s fault “again”.:yawn:

4TS&W
04-05-2012, 23:20
I guess maybe they were bored, since they aren't allowed to smuggle guns to Mexico for the time being.. until the heat dies down anyway..

Big Mad Dawg
04-05-2012, 23:40
I guess maybe they were bored, since they aren't allowed to suggle guns to Mexico for the time being.. until the heat dies down anyway..

Seems like a great idea send them to Alaska to cool down from US Mexican border area. Hope they don’t try and run short barrel pistols in to Canada.

fgutie35
04-05-2012, 23:51
This happened under the obama watch or are you going to claim it is Bush’s fault “again”.:yawn:

Not defending Obama nor Bush, but this is the way is always been done. At least since I used to sell guns at wa-mart. After filling out the form and customer left, we (the emplyee) would have to fill the customer info in the inventory book, that was later sent to ATF when full. In the years I worked there, not once the ATF went and snoop at the book or requested to take it incomplete, since when we received the guns from vendor, the first thing we would do was to write them down on the inventory book, so it would be idiotic for any agent to take the book when there is still some guns there that were not purchased yet.

4TS&W
04-05-2012, 23:57
Seems like a great idea send them to Alaska to cool down from US Mexican border area. Hope they don’t try and run short barrel pistols in to Canada.

Oh come on!!! You don't want them to have *ANY* fun, do ya??? :rofl:

Big Mad Dawg
04-06-2012, 00:35
Not defending Obama nor Bush, but this is the way is always been done. At least since I used to sell guns at wa-mart. After filling out the form and customer left, we (the emplyee) would have to fill the customer info in the inventory book, that was later sent to ATF when full. In the years I worked there, not once the ATF went and snoop at the book or requested to take it incomplete, since when we received the guns from vendor, the first thing we would do was to write them down on the inventory book, so it would be idiotic for any agent to take the book when there is still some guns there that were not purchased yet.

I am not commenting about the correct procedures in fact the thread is about ATF asking for copies of “all the 4473” as it was stated this is not correct procedures. I do understand the process I have bought a few guns by no means an expert but have a little exposure to the system.

expatman
04-06-2012, 05:34
How is this even new? That is they way it worked 23 years or more ago when my dad had an FFL. They reserve the right to inspect your records to make sure they are properly filled out. They reserve the right to come check your inventory. I don't see how any of this is a brand new revelation.

Yes they have the right to inspect your records. Yes they can come and check your inventory. In the article though, I believe they were requiring the shop to turn over the records found in the "bound book". That is not supposed to happen without some sort of requirement for an investigation. I think that is where the rub is.

I have been inspected by the BATFE. All he wanted to do was look at my bound book and reconcile it with a few of my 4473s on file. Never had to turn any over. I was only in operation for a short time though.

maxsnafu
04-06-2012, 07:05
Romney will fix this.

In the Reagan years the GOP toyed with the idea of doing away with or SERIOUSLY reining in the ATF. Needless to say, as always they caved.

certifiedfunds
04-06-2012, 07:11
edited

expatman
04-06-2012, 07:17
A simple error in my choice of words is all.

No I do not believe they have rights.

I should have stated that they have the "authority" to do so.

certifiedfunds
04-06-2012, 07:22
A simple error in my choice of words is all.

No I do not believe they have rights.

I should have stated that they have the "authority" to do so.

Bah. I realize. I'm splitting hairs.

Bren
04-06-2012, 07:41
The same law that gave us many other atrocities. The Interstate Commerce Clause.

Correct.

Notice that the National Firearms Act was a taxing law, because in 1934 it was believed that congress did not have the power to regulate intra-state commerce, except through taxes. That's why they couldn't ban machineguns, but they could require a tax and tax forms.

However, it went downhill from there, so that by 1968 the Supreme Court had decided that the federal government had almost unlimited power to control crime and commerce within states, because everything that happens "affects" interstate commerce.

The extreme is usually illustrated by the case of Wickard v. Filburn, 317 U.S. 111 (1942), in which the court found that the feds could regulate a farmer who was growing more food than they allow, on his own farm, for his own family and livestock, because if he didn't grow it, he'd have to buy it, so growing it affects interstate commerce. That was the biggest tip of the slippery slope after the civil war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn

Gundude
04-06-2012, 10:33
This happened under the obama watch or are you going to claim it is Bush’s fault “again”.:yawn:Making an assertion like that, I'm sure you'll be able to point to the last time I blamed Bush for something... Or have you resorted to simply cutting and pasting your arguments?

Saying this latest ATF overreach is another reason to vote out Obama is like saying "Oh no, my ice sculpture is melting in this 90 degree heat, I'd better move it 2 feet over to the right!"

Then you can watch it melt knowing at least it's melting in the spot you put it in. Does that make you feel more like you matter?

Syclone538
04-06-2012, 11:36
In the Reagan years the GOP toyed with the idea of doing away with or SERIOUSLY reining in the ATF. Needless to say, as always they caved.

They did get FOPA, and other then the :steamed: hugh's amendment, it was all good as far as I know.

RCP
04-06-2012, 11:56
"Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people." -Mitt Romney July 1, 2004

certifiedfunds
04-06-2012, 13:57
"Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people." -Mitt Romney July 1, 2004

As much as I don't like Romney and don't like his perspective on this, I fully support the people of Massachusettes deciding this for themselves.

Fools they may be.

Gundude
04-06-2012, 15:34
They did get FOPA, and other then the :steamed: hugh's amendment, it was all good as far as I know.That's like saying "other than contracting AIDS, the sex was great." :frown:

Gundude
04-06-2012, 15:42
As much as I don't like Romney and don't like his perspective on this, I fully support the people of Massachusettes deciding this for themselves.So it's OK to violate the Constitution (State and US) as long as the majority is for it?

I get that there's probably nothing that can prevent it, but does that make it OK?

certifiedfunds
04-06-2012, 15:43
So it's OK to violate the Constitution (State and US) as long as the majority is for it?

I get that there's probably nothing that can prevent it, but does that make it OK?

States rights

Let the people of Mass govern themselves as they see fit. Not my business.

Gundude
04-06-2012, 15:46
States rights

Let the people of Mass govern themselves as they see fit. Not my business.Losing wars makes a difference, and we lost that war.

cowboy1964
04-06-2012, 19:45
BTW: If you buy more than 1 pistol at a time the ATF places you on a special little list.


How would they know? The dealer does not include any information about your specific purchase when they call in to get the background check done.

certifiedfunds
04-06-2012, 19:48
Losing wars makes a difference, and we lost that war.

Not in my mind. My principles stay the same.

CitizenOfDreams
04-06-2012, 22:31
Hope they don’t try and run short barrel pistols in to Canada.

Russia is much closer to Alaska. You can see it from your backyard there.

Big Mad Dawg
04-07-2012, 00:01
Russia is much closer to Alaska. You can see it from your backyard there.

Maybe holder is looking for a Russian supplier probably be a higher profit for the obama.

Syclone538
04-07-2012, 01:11
How would they know? The dealer does not include any information about your specific purchase when they call in to get the background check done.

Q: As a licensed dealer, must I advise ATF if I sell more than one handgun to an individual?

If you sell or dispose of more than one handgun to any non-licensee during a period of 5 consecutive business days, the sale must be reported on ATF Form 3310.4, Report of Multiple Sale or Other Disposition of Pistols and Revolvers, not later than the close of the business day on which you sold or disposed of the second handgun. The licensee must forward a copy of the ATF Form 3310.4 to the ATF office specified thereon, and another copy must be forwarded to the State police or local law enforcement agency where the sale occurred. A copy of the Form 3310.4 also must be attached to the firearms transaction record, ATF Form 4473, documenting the sale or disposition of the second handgun.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensees-conduct-of-business.html#multiple-handgun-sales

Bren
04-07-2012, 05:00
How would they know? The dealer does not include any information about your specific purchase when they call in to get the background check done.

The dealer submits a report of multiple sales to ATF (don't recall the exact name, but they gave me a whole stack with my FFL).

stevelyn
04-07-2012, 15:43
States rights

Let the people of Mass govern themselves as they see fit. Not my business.

Yeah maybe they can bring back slavery one of these days if they see fit. :upeyes:

certifiedfunds
04-07-2012, 17:35
Yeah maybe they can bring back slavery one of these days if they see fit. :upeyes:

Interesting response considering your sigline

A Free And Independent Alaska Republic Now!
http://www.akip.org (http://www.akip.org/)

stevelyn
04-08-2012, 01:07
Interesting response considering your sigline

Not interesting or in conflict at all. An AWB is unconstitutional and I can't see how it is conducive to freedom.

If Assachusetts wants to leave the union and inact draconian gun laws than so be it. Until then there are lines they can't cross.

certifiedfunds
04-08-2012, 05:12
Not interesting or in conflict at all. An AWB is unconstitutional and I can't see how it is conducive to freedom.

If Assachusetts wants to leave the union and inact draconian gun laws than so be it. Until then there are lines they can't cross.

I think where we differ is how we view 'the union'. And as you know, Lincoln made the union a suicide pact. With regard to the Constitutionality of an AWB, "Congress shall make no law".

To be honest, in some respects the further out on that plank we walk the foggier it gets to me. I've been bested by a couple folks here on this very subject. Things have been so corrupted that I tend to fall on the side of states rights by default. Let Mass impose all the tyranny it wants and let her citizens vote with their feet.

stevelyn
04-08-2012, 13:30
Let Mass impose all the tyranny it wants and let her citizens vote with their feet.

I think that's what's happening now. I hear all the stories of M*******s making a mass exudus to places like ME and NH and then trying to turn them into the ****hole they just left.

Texas357
04-11-2012, 00:37
Isn't the ATF prohibited by law from entering those records into electronic database?

If so, Please let ATF be caught breaking that law.....


or is ATF just doing FFLs a favor by storing all those records for them, no warehousing fee?

Javelin
04-11-2012, 01:20
"Deadly assault weapons have no place in Massachusetts. These guns are not made for recreation or self-defense. They are instruments of destruction with the sole purpose of hunting down and killing people." -Mitt Romney July 1, 2004

HOLY WTF.

Are you kidding me? He is such a damn self admitted Progressive.

Screw Mitt Romney & the horse he rode in on. I will not EVER cast a vote for that guy. Ever.

:steamed: