Columbine High School Father 12 years later... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Sandman_NC
04-08-2012, 22:41
Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday,

Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful

They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert!

These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness.. The following is a portion of the transcript:

ďSince the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers.

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart.

"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA - because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder I would be their strongest opponent.

I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best:

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,

Your words are empty air.

You've stripped away our heritage,

You've outlawed simple prayer.

Now gunshots fill our classrooms,

And precious children die.

You seek for answers everywhere,

And ask the question "Why?"

You regulate restrictive laws,

Through legislative creed.

And yet you fail to understand,

That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc.

Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts.

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!

My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"

Darrell Scott

Do what the media did not - - let the nation hear this man's speech. Please send this out to everyone you can.

Animal Mother
04-08-2012, 22:51
This speech was given May 27, 1999, and was covered by the media, though not recently since it was almost 13 years ago. As for the claims he makes, prayer has never been banned from schools and hatred and violence aren't exactly something new as a result of the forbidding of school mandated or led prayers.

Guss
04-09-2012, 08:33
Any time you see the words "Please send this out to everyone you can.", the warning flags should go up.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/scott.asp

Sandman_NC
04-09-2012, 08:49
Nothing wrong with checking the facts! Still does not take away from the real message here.... let's focus on that shall we.

Brucev
04-09-2012, 14:06
Nothing wrong with checking the facts! Still does not take away from the real message here.... let's focus on that shall we.

The real message is the problem. It disturbs. So... we are suppose to focus attention elsewhere. Recon why?

Geko45
04-09-2012, 14:45
Nothing wrong with checking the facts! Still does not take away from the real message here.... let's focus on that shall we.

The real message is wrong. We don't need god. More often than not, this idea of a supreme god is at least partly responsible for acts such as these. Nothing more dangerous than trying to figure out what an imaginary diety wants you to do (e.g. the Fort Hood shooting).

Japle
04-09-2012, 14:48
As others have said, prayer is not and never has been outlawed in public schools.

But how about the effectiveness of prayer? It seems likely that many of the victims prayed to be saved in the moments before they were shot. Did any being with the power to answer those prayers hear them? If so, why were the prayers ignored and the victims left to suffer and die?

Prayer doesn’t seem to work with any more reliability than blind chance. That being the case, why the effort to promote organized prayer in schools?

Brucev
04-09-2012, 15:48
The real message is wrong. We don't need god. More often than not, this idea of a supreme god is at least partly responsible for acts such as these. Nothing more dangerous than trying to figure out what an imaginary diety wants you to do (e.g. the Fort Hood shooting).

The father in this article got it right... on all counts. If you don't like it, then you will have to dislike it.

Brucev
04-09-2012, 15:56
As others have said, prayer is not and never has been outlawed in public schools.

But how about the effectiveness of prayer? It seems likely that many of the victims prayed to be saved in the moments before they were shot. Did any being with the power to answer those prayers hear them? If so, why were the prayers ignored and the victims left to suffer and die?

Prayer doesnít seem to work with any more reliability than blind chance. That being the case, why the effort to promote organized prayer in schools?

Prayer is outlawed in public schools. It is outlawed by the actions of the sc that are used by the public school system to silence prayer. Don't believe it? Just try it in any public school... see how far you get. Let a student try it. Let a parent try it. They can get up and opine on homosexuality, abortion or any other extreme abnormality or outrage and be told it is their right under the first amendment to the COTUS. But let them try to exercise their religious rights and the school system will come down on them.

As to effectiveness... if the public schools systems effectiveness is to be any gauge, then let the students pray. The results will be a vast improvement than the squallor and failure that is the current norm.

As to why students died that day? No where in the Bible does it day that believers are immune to the evil that stalks even school hallways. Even Jesus died at the hands of evil unrestrained. If you want to be freed from a world where evil exist, you will have to invent one. Evil is the norm of the human experience. It is native to man.

Animal Mother
04-09-2012, 16:48
Prayer is outlawed in public schools. No, it isn't.
It is outlawed by the actions of the sc that are used by the public school system to silence prayer. Don't believe it? Just try it in any public school... see how far you get. Let a student try it. Let a parent try it. As far as they wish, often to the flagpole (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm).
They can get up and opine on homosexuality, abortion or any other extreme abnormality or outrage and be told it is their right under the first amendment to the COTUS. But let them try to exercise their religious rights and the school system will come down on them. No it won't, unless it disrupts the main purpose of the school, education.

Brucev
04-09-2012, 17:41
[QUOTE=Animal Mother;18822670]

No, it isn't. You are misinformed or else you are simpy dishonest. The sc removed prayer from school. Prior to their ruling, there was complete freedom for anyone student or teacher to pray, lead in prayer, etc. Now courtesy of a left-wing liberal judicial system and educational process, prayer is suppressed. If you don't think so, then walk into any local public school and try to pray. Try it. See how far you get.

As far as they wish, often to the flagpole (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm). Let those same student try to have prayer that does not fit within the strict prohibitions of the school system and see what results. Again, as above, try it and see what results. Protest of what is legally allowed are just so much hot air.

No it won't, unless it disrupts the main purpose of the school, education. So... who is to decide if the exercise of a constitutional right disrupts the educational process? The very people who use their position and authority to restrict and suppress any religious express, except for what ever expression assist the advance of their own agenda. Again, just try it and see how far you get.

Geko45
04-09-2012, 17:50
The father in this article got it right... on all counts. If you don't like it, then you will have to dislike it.

What happens in this imaginary world of yours when I don't agree?

Animal Mother
04-09-2012, 18:20
No, it isn't. You are misinformed or else you are simpy dishonest. The sc removed prayer from school. No, it didn't. I'm afraid you're the one who is misinformed, or simply dishonest.
Prior to their ruling, there was complete freedom for anyone student or teacher to pray, lead in prayer, etc. Now courtesy of a left-wing liberal judicial system and educational process, prayer is suppressed. If you don't think so, then walk into any local public school and try to pray. Try it. See how far you get. I couldn't walk into any local public school for any purpose, they tend to frown on random people doing things like that.
Let those same student try to have prayer that does not fit within the strict prohibitions of the school system and see what results. Again, as above, try it and see what results. Schools have rules and standards of behavior, that's hardly surprising. The point is that it is not illegal for students to pray.
Protest of what is legally allowed are just so much hot air.Perhaps you should try actually reviewing the law before pontificating so incorrectly.
So... who is to decide if the exercise of a constitutional right disrupts the educational process? The administration of the school, and if necessary, the courts.
The very people who use their position and authority to restrict and suppress any religious express, except for what ever expression assist the advance of their own agenda. Again, just try it and see how far you get. Are you really arguing that anyone should be allowed to disrupt schools any time the mood strikes them?

ksg0245
04-09-2012, 18:21
[QUOTE=Animal Mother;18822670]

No, it isn't. You are misinformed or else you are simpy dishonest. The sc removed prayer from school. Prior to their ruling, there was complete freedom for anyone student or teacher to pray, lead in prayer, etc. Now courtesy of a left-wing liberal judicial system and educational process, prayer is suppressed. If you don't think so, then walk into any local public school and try to pray. Try it. See how far you get.

As far as they wish, often to the flagpole (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_syatp.htm). Let those same student try to have prayer that does not fit within the strict prohibitions of the school system and see what results. Again, as above, try it and see what results. Protest of what is legally allowed are just so much hot air.

No it won't, unless it disrupts the main purpose of the school, education. So... who is to decide if the exercise of a constitutional right disrupts the educational process? The very people who use their position and authority to restrict and suppress any religious express, except for what ever expression assist the advance of their own agenda. Again, just try it and see how far you get.

You're conflating the Constitutional prohibition of state-lead prayer with prayer being illegal in school; they aren't the same thing.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html
Section 9524 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ("ESEA") of 1965, as amended by the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, requires the Secretary to issue guidance on constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary and secondary schools. In addition, Section 9524 requires that, as a condition of receiving ESEA funds, a local educational agency ("LEA") must certify in writing to its State educational agency ("SEA") that it has no policy that prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer in public schools as set forth in this guidance.

The purpose of this guidance is to provide SEAs, LEAs, and the public with information on the current state of the law concerning constitutionally protected prayer in the public schools, and thus to clarify the extent to which prayer in public schools is legally protected.

http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/prayer-in-school.htm
Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. ...

Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups. Such groups must be given the same access to school facilities for assembling as is given to other non-curricular groups, without discrimination because of the religious content of their expression. ...

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. ...

If a school has a "minute of silence" or other quiet periods during the school day, students are free to pray silently, or not to pray, during these periods of time. Teachers and other school employees may neither encourage nor discourage students from praying during such time periods.

http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp
Organized prayer in the public school setting, whether in the classroom or at a school-sponsored event, is unconstitutional. The only type of prayer that is constitutionally permissible is private, voluntary student prayer that does not interfere with the school's educational mission.

Brucev
04-09-2012, 18:29
What happens in this imaginary world of yours when I don't agree?

You? What you think is irrelevant. Can't see any reason to take what you think into account.

Brucev
04-09-2012, 18:32
[QUOTE=Animal Mother;18823115]No, it didn't. I'm afraid you're the one who is misinformed, or simply dishonest.
I couldn't walk into any local public school for any purpose, they tend to frown on random people doing things like that.
Schools have rules and standards of behavior, that's hardly surprising. The point is that it is not illegal for students to pray. Just let any student try to exercise their constitutional right to pray... at school. And watch the fire works... and watch them get hit with the full weight and power of the local authorities.
Perhaps you should try actually reviewing the law before pontificating so incorrectly.
The administration of the school, and if necessary, the courts.
Are you really arguing that anyone should be allowed to disrupt schools any time the mood strikes them? I'm saying that contrary to the Constitution the right of students and faculty to pray in school is restricted, suppressed by those who use the law as their weapon. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

Animal Mother
04-09-2012, 18:45
Just let any student try to exercise their constitutional right to pray... at school. And watch the fire works... and watch them get hit with the full weight and power of the local authorities. Unless it interfered with the instructional purpose of the school or disrupted the education of others, nothing would happen.
I'm saying that contrary to the Constitution the right of students and faculty to pray in school is restricted, suppressed by those who use the law as their weapon. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. Yes, it's restricted, in that such prayer can't either interfere with the education of students nor take the appearance of endorsing one religion or faith over others, but it isn't forbidden, which was your original contention.

ArtificialGrape
04-09-2012, 19:15
I'm saying that contrary to the Constitution the right of students and faculty to pray in school is restricted, suppressed by those who use the law as their weapon.
Your earlier claim was that, "Prayer is outlawed in public schools."

I'm not clear, have you backpeddaled from outlawed to restricted/suppressed, or are you sticking with outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape

Guss
04-09-2012, 20:21
Is there a person here who thinks the Supreme Court keeps God from hearing the silent prayer of his child?

dbcooper
04-10-2012, 09:54
If we allow teachers to lead the class in prayer does the teacher get to decide which prayer? To which God? Can a wiccan teacher have the class participate in a ceremony to honor the Goddess? Does the Muslim teacher get to have his class bow to Mecca a few times a day? Can the parents be required to supply a prayer rug?

Brucev
04-10-2012, 13:00
[quote=Brucev;18822903]

You're conflating the Constitutional prohibition of state-lead prayer with prayer being illegal in school; they aren't the same thing.

http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/prayer_guidance.html
Section 9524 of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act ("ESEA") of 1965, as amended by the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001, requires the Secretary to issue guidance on constitutionally protected prayer in public elementary and secondary schools. In addition, Section 9524 requires that, as a condition of receiving ESEA funds, a local educational agency ("LEA") must certify in writing to its State educational agency ("SEA") that it has no policy that prevents, or otherwise denies participation in, constitutionally protected prayer in public schools as set forth in this guidance.

The purpose of this guidance is to provide SEAs, LEAs, and the public with information on the current state of the law concerning constitutionally protected prayer in the public schools, and thus to clarify the extent to which prayer in public schools is legally protected.

http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/prayer-in-school.htm
Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. ...

Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups. Such groups must be given the same access to school facilities for assembling as is given to other non-curricular groups, without discrimination because of the religious content of their expression. ...

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. ...

If a school has a "minute of silence" or other quiet periods during the school day, students are free to pray silently, or not to pray, during these periods of time. Teachers and other school employees may neither encourage nor discourage students from praying during such time periods.

http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/prayer.asp
Organized prayer in the public school setting, whether in the classroom or at a school-sponsored event, is unconstitutional. The only type of prayer that is constitutionally permissible is private, voluntary student prayer that does not interfere with the school's educational mission.

I am so very not impressed with your cut and paste. Now on to real life. Get yourself to school. Go get yourself a job in a local school system. Or... have a child in the local school system. Let you or them seek to exercise their Constitutional right to pray unimpeded, unrestricted, unencumbered by, etc. the administration of the school and just see how far they get. To restrict their right in the name of someone elses sensibilities is just a ruse used to restrict, impede, prevent them from exercising their Constitutional right. Anything to the contrary is just so much hog wallow.

Brucev
04-10-2012, 13:01
Your earlier claim was that, "Prayer is outlawed in public schools."

I'm not clear, have you backpeddaled from outlawed to restricted/suppressed, or are you sticking with outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape

Why would I backpedal? To think such a thing is your error, not mine.

Brucev
04-10-2012, 13:09
If we allow teachers to lead the class in prayer does the teacher get to decide which prayer? Yes. And of course if they can't do the job right, the school board can remove them. The school board would answer to the parents for the quality of their own administration.

To which God? Can a wiccan teacher have the class participate in a ceremony to honor the Goddess? Personally I'd prayer to be Christian prayer. If that rubbed anyone else the wrong way, well they could go somewhere else... or organize a private school of their own. If the school board hired someone who turned out to be a pagan, etc., then they would need to fire them. Very cool.

Does the Muslim teacher get to have his class bow to Mecca a few times a day? Same process as last question.

Can the parents be required to supply a prayer rug? Christians don't normally need such things, so the answer is "No." If that did not suit those who saw things differently, fine. They can always establish their own private schools.

fox3091
04-10-2012, 13:30
Bruce, as a high school graduate of the class of 2009 and a Christian, I have to respectfully disagree. Not once during my school career did I ever feel repressed in my religious expression. People prayed at lunches, we had study groups and a Non Denominational worship group at school. The only time I saw these laws at work were when it came to teachers sharing their opinions without stating that it was their personal view first.

Now, the Wiccans and Muslims and other non Christians I knew did not seem to have that freedom.


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

ksg0245
04-10-2012, 13:30
I am so very not impressed with your cut and paste.

I apologize for presenting evidence against you.

Now on to real life.

Real life, or Christian life?

Get yourself to school.

Thanks, I've been.

Go get yourself a job in a local school system.

Have you done so? As it happens, I work in a community college system, although not actually on a campus.

Or... have a child in the local school system.

Easily done, my son is there this very moment.

Let you or them seek to exercise their Constitutional right to pray unimpeded, unrestricted, unencumbered by, etc. the administration of the school and just see how far they get.

Your claim in post 9: "Prayer is outlawed in public schools." (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18822477&postcount=9)

Your claim in post 11: "The sc removed prayer from school." (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18822903&postcount=11)

It looks like now you're saying "students can't pray whenever they want." Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding. Is it your opinion that some students should be allowed to interrupt the education of their fellow students any time they feel like?

Is it your opinion the students who are at school to get an education should have their rights superseded by those who want to interrupt school for prayer?

To restrict their right in the name of someone elses sensibilities is just a ruse used to restrict, impede, prevent them from exercising their Constitutional right.

Which is it: restrict or prevent? They aren't the same thing. Should nothing be restricted, or just the stuff you want? Are you equally outraged at, for example, the restriction on the rights of Muslims to pray in school?

Anything to the contrary is just so much hog wallow.

ksg0245
04-10-2012, 13:33
Why would I backpedal?

Because your earlier claim was shown to be in error.

To think such a thing is your error, not mine.

You first claimed ""Prayer is outlawed in public schools" and "The sc removed prayer from school." You then said "the right of students and faculty to pray in school is restricted."

It isn't an error to point out that "restricted" isn't equivalent to "outlawed" or "removed."

ksg0245
04-10-2012, 13:42
If we allow teachers to lead the class in prayer does the teacher get to decide which prayer? Yes. And of course if they can't do the job right, the school board can remove them. The school board would answer to the parents for the quality of their own administration.

To which God? Can a wiccan teacher have the class participate in a ceremony to honor the Goddess? Personally I'd prayer to be Christian prayer. If that rubbed anyone else the wrong way, well they could go somewhere else... or organize a private school of their own.

What prevents parents desiring a religious education for their children doing just that?

If the school board hired someone who turned out to be a pagan, etc., then they would need to fire them. Very cool.[/I]

It's "very cool" to violate the religious freedom of non-christians?

IDoes the Muslim teacher get to have his class bow to Mecca a few times a day? Same process as last question.

It looks like you're saying Muslims don't have the same religious rights Christians do, is that correct?

Can the parents be required to supply a prayer rug? Christians don't normally need such things, so the answer is "No." If that did not suit those who saw things differently, fine. They can always establish their own private schools.

So can Christians.

ArtificialGrape
04-10-2012, 20:43
Why would I backpedal? To think such a thing is your error, not mine.
Your earlier claim was that prayer was outlawed. You have been demonstrated to be wrong, and now you shift your focus to prayer being restricted. You fail to present evidence to support your claim and instead argue about what you would expect in a hypothetical anecdotal scenario.

Any chance that you'd care to present evidence supporting your earlier claim that prayer is outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape

Brucev
04-11-2012, 06:28
[QUOTE=ksg0245;18826598]What prevents parents desiring a religious education for their children doing just that?

We who do not want our children polluted by your toxic paganism are in the right. If you want to pedal your poison, you can have the fun of paying for it yourself.

It's "very cool" to violate the religious freedom of non-christians? Religious freedom? Really. Your "religious?"



It looks like you're saying Muslims don't have the same religious rights Christians do, is that correct? Muslims? Haven't ever seen a muslim... except when they were crashing airplanes into buildings, cutting the heads off hostages and blowing the brains out of women in soccer fields.



So can Christians. Why should we? If you want to continue to destroy this nation, do it on your own dime.

Brucev
04-11-2012, 06:31
Your earlier claim was that prayer was outlawed. You have been demonstrated to be wrong, and now you shift your focus to prayer being restricted. You fail to present evidence to support your claim and instead argue about what you would expect in a hypothetical anecdotal scenario.

Any chance that you'd care to present evidence supporting your earlier claim that prayer is outlawed?

-ArtificialGrape

Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

ArtificialGrape
04-11-2012, 06:52
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

No worry, I wasn't actually expecting that you'd start supporting your false assertions with evidence at this point.

-ArtificialGrape

Brucev
04-11-2012, 07:45
No worry, I wasn't actually expecting that you'd start supporting your false assertions with evidence at this point.

-ArtificialGrape

You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.

Geko45
04-11-2012, 08:14
You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.

You need to grow up and learn that you aren't nearly as insightful as you think you are.

Animal Mother
04-11-2012, 08:44
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth. You must find living in a heterogeneous society a difficult thing. By the same token, why should anyone care about your thoughts or opinions? At least ArtificialGrape manages to support his position with actual facts rather than childish petulance.

ksg0245
04-11-2012, 08:47
We who do not want our children polluted by your toxic paganism

I'm sorry you think reality is "toxic paganism."

are in the right.

It's true you have the right to believe whatever you'd like. You don't have the right to impose those beliefs on others or require others to accomodate your beliefs, though. Too bad.

If you want to pedal your poison, you can have the fun of paying for it yourself.

You mean while your "poison" is payed for with my tax dollars? That seems fair.

Religious freedom? Really.

Yeah, you know, that thing mentioned in the Constitution. You seem to be unaware.

Your "religious?"

Unfortunately for you, it doesn't matter what I am, nor does it matter what anyone else is. EVERYBODY is protected, not just your favorite group.

Muslims? Haven't ever seen a muslim... except when they were crashing airplanes into buildings, cutting the heads off hostages and blowing the brains out of women in soccer fields.

Nice dodge. I was almost completely unaware that you failed to address the question.

I suspect you're lying about never having seen a Muslim, but that hardly matters, does it?

Why should we?

Because that darned Constitution says so.

If you want to continue to destroy this nation, do it on your own dime.

:upeyes:

ksg0245
04-11-2012, 08:50
Evidence? Surely you jest! You must be under the mistaken impression that I care what you think or value your opinion. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Careful, you'll get a bruise bumping into reality that hard.

Brucev
04-11-2012, 09:45
Careful, you'll get a bruise bumping into reality that hard.

You obviously have experience walking around in the dark. If I were to emulate you, I'd have cause to be concerned. But since I walk in the light, I have no problem recognizing reality... or changing it when it suits me.

ArtificialGrape
04-11-2012, 09:46
You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.
Not disappointed at all -- you have met my precise expectations for this conversation.

Sorry to distract you from evangelizing that gays should be despised and rejected. Carry on. :wavey:

-ArtificialGrape

Japle
04-11-2012, 10:05
Posted by Brucev:
But since I walk in the light, I have no problem recognizing reality... or changing it when it suits me.
Oh, good! He thinks he can change reality!

(Get the net!!)

ksg0245
04-11-2012, 11:10
You obviously have experience walking around in the dark.

Of course I do; darkness is part of reality. It gets dark in caves and at night, for example. I don't stop walking around just because it's dark.

If I were to emulate you, I'd have cause to be concerned.

Well, I hope you never have to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or anything.

But since I walk in the light, I have no problem recognizing reality...

Since you have no problem recognizing reality, have you noticed that Christians aren't the only people in the USA?

or changing it when it suits me.

I'm curious what would precipitate you changing, given your disdain for evidence and rejection of points of view other than your own.

Gunhaver
04-11-2012, 12:16
Bruce, let me put this into the only language you understand,

Matthew 6:6
"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Your problem seems to be that students can't drop everything in the middle of a class and git to prayin' where everyone else can see how holy they are and feel compelled to join in.

You must grow up and learn to live with disappointment.

This is a common theme for you. Something to the effect of "if you don't like it, too bad, so sad" caps off so many of your statements but if you pay attention to the trend in this country without delusion in your head (:rofl:) you'll see that it's you that's got some disappointment to live with and more coming every day.

RC-RAMIE
04-11-2012, 12:27
To which God? Can a wiccan teacher have the class participate in a ceremony to honor the Goddess? Personally I'd prayer to be Christian prayer. If that rubbed anyone else the wrong way, well they could go somewhere else... or organize a private school of their own. If the school board hired someone who turned out to be a pagan, etc., then they would need to fire them. Very cool.

[/I]

Fired for being pagan what happened to the freedom of religion you been railing about. Or is freedom of religion for Christians?

Brucev
04-11-2012, 14:04
[QUOTE=Gunhaver;18830784]Bruce, let me put this into the only language you understand,

Matthew 6:6
"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Your problem seems to be that students can't drop everything in the middle of a class and git to prayin' where everyone else can see how holy they are and feel compelled to join in.

This is a common theme for you. Something to the effect of "if you don't like it, too bad, so sad" caps off so many of your statements but if you pay attention to the trend in this country without delusion in your head (:rofl:) you'll see that it's you that's got some disappointment to live with and more coming every day.

I consider that it is outrageous for a student or teacher to be told that their Constitutional right is to be infringed, restricted, hindered... whatever, simply because someone else gets bent over it. If extra-Constitutional rights are to be afforded to allow the killing of unborn children to suit the convenience whoever and then everyone is supposed to "accept" it, then there is no reason at all that a genuine right specifically written in the COTUS should be in any way fenced in by the concerns of anyone period.

As to disappointment, it comes to everyone. So what?

Brucev
04-11-2012, 14:07
Fired for being pagan what happened to the freedom of religion you been railing about. Or is freedom of religion for Christians?

Fired for being pagan? Yep. That just about nails it on the head. All for it. As to freedom of religion, I can't see that it pertains to anyone except Christians. This nation is rooted in the Christian faith. The rest are welcome to go somewhere else and start their own nation.

Gunhaver
04-11-2012, 14:44
As to disappointment, it comes to everyone. So what?

Then I say to you that if you don't like the prayer in school situation in this country then you're free to go start a new Christian nation. You and your kind obviously didn't do a good enough job of keeping this one all Christiany so maybe you should start over.

Oh, and if you don't like it, TS. :tongueout:

Japle
04-11-2012, 14:53
Posted by Brucev:
Fired for being pagan? Yep. That just about nails it on the head. All for it. As to freedom of religion, I can't see that it pertains to anyone except Christians. This nation is rooted in the Christian faith. The rest are welcome to go somewhere else and start their own nation.
Wow. I canít recall coming across an example of religious bigotry that blatant on this forum before. The vast majority of people who hold views that extreme have the good sense to keep their opinions to themselves.

Itís good to have it out in the open. Now we know exactly what weíre dealing with.

RC-RAMIE
04-11-2012, 15:42
Fired for being pagan? Yep. That just about nails it on the head. All for it. As to freedom of religion, I can't see that it pertains to anyone except Christians. This nation is rooted in the Christian faith. The rest are welcome to go somewhere else and start their own nation.

Wow..

ksg0245
04-11-2012, 17:19
Fired for being pagan? Yep. That just about nails it on the head. All for it. As to freedom of religion, I can't see that it pertains to anyone except Christians. This nation is rooted in the Christian faith. The rest are welcome to go somewhere else and start their own nation.

Could you point please out where in the Constitution freedom of religion is restricted to Christians?

ksg0245
04-11-2012, 17:22
I consider that it is outrageous for a student or teacher to be told that their Constitutional right is to be infringed, restricted, hindered... whatever, simply because someone else gets bent over it.

No you don't; you're outraged because Christians aren't being given the deference you think they deserve.

If extra-Constitutional rights are to be afforded to allow the killing of unborn children to suit the convenience whoever and then everyone is supposed to "accept" it, then there is no reason at all that a genuine right specifically written in the COTUS should be in any way fenced in by the concerns of anyone period.

Sorry, what?

As to disappointment, it comes to everyone. So what?

ArtificialGrape
04-11-2012, 17:25
Fired for being pagan? Yep. That just about nails it on the head. All for it. As to freedom of religion, I can't see that it pertains to anyone except Christians. This nation is rooted in the Christian faith. The rest are welcome to go somewhere else and start their own nation.

Could you point please out where in the Constitution freedom of religion is restricted to Christians?
When you're enlightened you transcend evidence.
Evidence? Surely you jest!

Brucev
04-11-2012, 18:08
When you're enlightened you transcend evidence.

What you have to understand is that I don't take you seriously. I consider your arguments background noise.

ArtificialGrape
04-11-2012, 18:47
What you have to understand is that I don't take you seriously. I consider your arguments background noise.

What you have to understand is that I don't take you seriously. If I make a claim I'm able to support it with evidence, and if challenged (and often without being challenged) I provide the evidence. You on the other hand make assertions, and when they're pointed out as blatantly false, you merely dismiss the challenger. I can see how this would be helpful (necessary actually) given your inability to support your claims and lack of maturity to admit when you're wrong.

Regards,
-ArtificialGrape

Sarge1400
04-11-2012, 18:55
What you have to understand is that I don't take you seriously. I consider your arguments background noise.

Yet you respond to his posts, which makes you either a liar or a troll. I'm guessing both, in ample quantities.

Gunhaver
04-11-2012, 20:00
Wow. I canít recall coming across an example of religious bigotry that blatant on this forum before. The vast majority of people who hold views that extreme have the good sense to keep their opinions to themselves.

Itís good to have it out in the open. Now we know exactly what weíre dealing with.

The funny thing is that he think's that we're all the screwed up ones for not thinking the same way.

Brucev
04-12-2012, 09:12
Yet you respond to his posts, which makes you either a liar or a troll. I'm guessing both, in ample quantities.

It's like driving down the interstate. You notice people, but you don't necessarily pay them any attention.

Brucev
04-12-2012, 09:12
The funny thing is that he think's that we're all the screwed up ones for not thinking the same way.

You see things your way. I'll see them mine. Deal with it.

Geko45
04-12-2012, 09:40
You see things your way. I'll see them mine. Deal with it.

You seem to be the one that leads to learn how to "deal". Freedom of Religion is only for your religion? You don't get to decide that. Deal with it.

Brucev
04-12-2012, 17:51
You seem to be the one that leads to learn how to "deal". Freedom of Religion is only for your religion? You don't get to decide that. Deal with it.

I will do exactly as I please. If that bends your nose, to bad.

Geko45
04-12-2012, 18:06
I will do exactly as I please. If that bends your nose, to bad.

And if you don't like me telling you to piss off then you can just take a Xanax and cope.

:tongueout:

ksg0245
04-12-2012, 18:45
It's like driving down the interstate. You notice people, but you don't necessarily pay them any attention.

Good idea; you'll never crash into them that way.

juggy4711
04-12-2012, 22:38
I prayed everyday in school. I prayed I would get out early and with no homework.

dbcooper
04-12-2012, 23:19
It's nice to on occasion see a reminder of why I turned my back on the church decades ago.

Animal Mother
04-13-2012, 01:41
I will do exactly as I please. If that bends your nose, to bad.Matthew 7:12, perhaps you should take some time out from being a Christian to actually read and understand the Bible.

Brucev
04-13-2012, 09:35
Matthew 7:12, perhaps you should take some time out from being a Christian to actually read and understand the Bible.

Don't expect to use what you do not believe in as a weapon.

Paul7
04-13-2012, 10:17
This speech was given May 27, 1999, and was covered by the media, though not recently since it was almost 13 years ago. As for the claims he makes, prayer has never been banned from schools and hatred and violence aren't exactly something new as a result of the forbidding of school mandated or led prayers.

School-led prayers were banned, you know, like what Congress does.

Paul7
04-13-2012, 10:18
Fired for being pagan? Yep. That just about nails it on the head. All for it. As to freedom of religion, I can't see that it pertains to anyone except Christians. This nation is rooted in the Christian faith. The rest are welcome to go somewhere else and start their own nation.

Didn't they do that in Cuba, among other places?

Brucev
04-13-2012, 10:30
Didn't they do that in Cuba, among other places?

Never been to that little place in the sun. Have no idea what life is like in the workers paradise.

Woofie
04-13-2012, 10:45
Don't expect to use what you do not believe in as a weapon.

Are you arguing that your faith doesn't apply when dealing with a non believer?

RC-RAMIE
04-13-2012, 11:16
School-led prayers were banned, you know, like what Congress does.

And should be, but Prayer was not banned, a child in school can bow his or hers head whenever they want and whisper a prayer off as long as it does not interfere with other students learning.

Brucev
04-13-2012, 11:20
Are you arguing that your faith doesn't apply when dealing with a non believer?

Are you expecting someone to turn the other cheek?

Woofie
04-13-2012, 12:38
Are you expecting someone to turn the other cheek?

How is that an answer to the question?

Brucev
04-13-2012, 12:41
How is that an answer to the question?

It is sufficient given the one to whom it is addressed.

Woofie
04-13-2012, 13:23
It is sufficient given the one to whom it is addressed.

Good enough for me. It is your position that it is ok for you to abandon your faith when dealing with someone who doesn't share it.

Brucev
04-13-2012, 13:48
Good enough for me. It is your position that it is ok for you to abandon your faith when dealing with someone who doesn't share it.

Abandon? Perish the thought. Simply suit the tool to the wood.

Animal Mother
04-13-2012, 15:37
Don't expect to use what you do not believe in as a weapon. Not using it as a weapon, just expecting you to adhere to the beliefs you claim to hold. Perhaps it is those claims that are false.

Animal Mother
04-13-2012, 15:51
School-led prayers were banned, you know, like what Congress does. Congress requires its members to participate in prayers?

Kingarthurhk
04-13-2012, 19:00
Let me tell you about a story from my youth. Well, over half my age ago, when I was in High School. I went to a High School is small desert town of may 30k people at most. The town had an interesting dynamic being part of the Bible belt, it was ranked one of the top towns in the national for churches per capita. Every denomination you could fathom, even a hermitage of Eastern Orthodox folks a pace from town as I recall.

At any rate, the local nondenominational Church of Christ was the religio-political mover and shaker in town. If you were somebody, you went there. I wasn't anybody, and I didn't.

Well, one afternoon, we were informed out of the blue, we were all called into a "mandatory assembly" in the gym. As soon as all head's were accounted for, the teachers, shut the doors, and any exit was barred.

Would you believe who came to have a presentation for our assembly that day? You guessed it, your not-so-friendly friends of the Church of Christ.

The same folks who had the school administration suspend anyone caught with Dungeons and Dragons on school campus. I was a rebel, I didn't like that a church deciding what was acceptable in a public school, so I would get together with a couple of guys in an abandoned room on campus and roll dice while having lunch.

So, here we are, locked down and the Church of Christ is there openly prostelyzing. I was sitting next to my Bhuddist friend who was pretty put out by being forced to participate in assembly attempting to proselytize him to the Church of Christ where he was not permitted to leave.

Once the presentation was over, the doors were opened, and we were permitted to leave.

I went to the principals office and complained. I have always been an advocate of religious freedom. Which is a bulk of the reason I rolled dice at lunch.

I told them that they were violating the First Amendment and recounted the way they locked us in and the experience of my Bhudist friend.

The response? "Why does it bother you, aren't you a Christian?"

I answered, "Yes, I am. And that is exactly why this bothers me."

juggy4711
04-13-2012, 20:49
...The response? "Why does it bother you, aren't you a Christian?"

I answered, "Yes, I am. And that is exactly why this bothers me."

Nothing wrong with playing some DnD or any other dice based table top RPG for that matter. Spent most of my childhood doing so. We may disagree on religious specifics but I have to respect someone that will stand up for others' rights to believe differently than they do personally. Cheers.