Owe the IRS? You're Not Going Anywhere [Archive] - Glock Talk

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snerd
04-09-2012, 10:54
We're back to a debtor prison nation.

A new bill making its way through Congress could allow the federal government to prevent Americans who owe back taxes from leaving the country.

The provision is part of Senate Bill 1813 (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1813es/pdf/BILLS-112s1813es.pdf), which was introduced by Senator Barbara Boxer (D-CA) in November and passed by the Senate on March 14 “to reauthorize Federal-aid highway and highway safety construction programs, and for other purposes.”

Those “other purposes” have come to include a little-known amendment recently introduced by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid that would allow the State Department to revoke, deny or limit passports for anyone the Internal Revenue Service certifies as having “a seriously delinquent tax debt in an amount in excess of $50,000.”

Read more: http://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/2012/04/05/owe-irs-youre-not-going-anywhere/#ixzz1rYy8lLel

certifiedfunds
04-09-2012, 11:08
I wonder how this applies to government appointees?

aircarver
04-09-2012, 11:13
I wonder how this applies to government appointees?

Them, we don't let back in- the country .....:supergrin:

.

snerd
04-09-2012, 11:14
I wonder how this applies to government appointees?
I'm sure they'll claim diplomatic immunity.

Big Mad Dawg
04-09-2012, 12:55
They make the rules but are not concerned with following them that is only for those of us paying the bills.

Angry Fist
04-09-2012, 12:58
Them, we don't let back in- the country .....:supergrin:

.
:thumbsup:

Brucev
04-09-2012, 15:26
If someone owes taxes due and is delinquent in payment of that tax, they cannot expect to not face consequences. If that means they can't leave the country for a little vacation trip, to bad. Let them clear up their bill. Then if they want to leave the country, let them leave. If they don't come back, no loss. But they should not be allowed to leave the country for whatever reason and leave behind them a debt owed.

G19G20
04-09-2012, 15:44
If someone owes taxes due and is delinquent in payment of that tax, they cannot expect to not face consequences. If that means they can't leave the country for a little vacation trip, to bad. Let them clear up their bill. Then if they want to leave the country, let them leave. If they don't come back, no loss. But they should not be allowed to leave the country for whatever reason and leave behind them a debt owed.

May your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.

Only a matter of time before the national debt itself is tied directly to your name along with a bill.

Angry Fist
04-09-2012, 17:32
May your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.

Only a matter of time before the national debt itself is tied directly to your name along with a bill.
Yeah, and where does this **** end? Next up, is ANYTHING that can possibly be classified as any sort of "tax evasion" will be a federal crime. Like not reporting certain kinds of illicit income. Millions of Al Capones out there, ya know.

http://money.msn.com/taxes/bribes-thefts-and-other-taxable-gains.aspx

callihan_44
04-09-2012, 17:36
how about obamacare? ohh you dont have healthcare and owe the irs a penalty...sorry your denied.....give em an inch and they take miles

Brucev
04-09-2012, 17:48
May your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.

Only a matter of time before the national debt itself is tied directly to your name along with a bill.

Chains? I don't waste time wallowing around feeling sorry for myself. Be a man. Pay your bills... all of them. No one gets to live like they are the only person in the world. No one gets to only have things exactly like they want them. If you don't like everything that taxes support, so what? There are folks who feel just as strongly about paying taxes to support things you think are worthwhile. That's just the way the world works. Be man enough to pay up. If you make the money, pay the tax and don't run around crying and whining because you don't get to make all the decisions about where the money comes from and how it is spent. You don't like it? Come November, cast your ballot. And live with the consequences.

Brucev
04-09-2012, 17:51
Yeah, and where does this **** end? Next up, is ANYTHING that can possibly be classified as any sort of "tax evasion" will be a federal crime. Like not reporting certain kinds of illicit income. Millions of Al Capones out there, ya know.

http://money.msn.com/taxes/bribes-thefts-and-other-taxable-gains.aspx

Simple answer is to eliminate all deductions beyond perhaps interest on a initial home, charitable contributions and school loans. Given that so many like to pay online for this, that and the other thing, tracking what someone makes should not be so difficult. And... if someone is seeking to hide income either in the U.S. or overseas, they should be prosecuted. They are criminals.

Of course the nice result of all of the above would be that enough folks would actually get concerned to the point that congress would be forced to actually address the problems with the tax system. Get enough folks upset... then the change will come. The "war on drugs" has served to so criminalize marijuana with such extreme penalties that serious movement is being made to decriminalize its possession and use. The only real opponents are those whose financial interest are vested in continued criminalization. Let the same be done with taxes. Let enough regular people be impacted and change will come. Until then, as long as only a few people are affected, as long as the broad majority are left alone, nothing will happen.

Angry Fist
04-09-2012, 17:51
how about obamacare? ohh you dont have healthcare and owe the irs a penalty...sorry your denied.....give em an micron and they take parsecs.
Fify.

certifiedfunds
04-09-2012, 18:14
Yeah, and where does this **** end? Next up, is ANYTHING that can possibly be classified as any sort of "tax evasion" will be a federal crime. Like not reporting certain kinds of illicit income. Millions of Al Capones out there, ya know.

http://money.msn.com/taxes/bribes-thefts-and-other-taxable-gains.aspx

That is the idea.

Tax code has nothing to do with funding government. It is solely structured for control and power accumulation.

That's why views like BruceV's are so insidious. Essentially he's saying if you don't give into the government coercion you should gladly accept the consequences.

certifiedfunds
04-09-2012, 18:19
Simple answer is to eliminate all deductions beyond perhaps interest on a initial home, charitable contributions and school loans. Given that so many like to pay online for this, that and the other thing, tracking what someone makes should not be so difficult. And... if someone is seeking to hide income either in the U.S. or overseas, they should be prosecuted. They are criminals.

Of course the nice result of all of the above would be that enough folks would actually get concerned to the point that congress would be forced to actually address the problems with the tax system. Get enough folks upset... then the change will come. The "war on drugs" has served to so criminalize marijuana with such extreme penalties that serious movement is being made to decriminalize its possession and use. The only real opponents are those whose financial interest are vested in continued criminalization. Let the same be done with taxes. Let enough regular people be impacted and change will come. Until then, as long as only a few people are affected, as long as the broad majority are left alone, nothing will happen.

There aren't enough folks paying taxes.

HarlDane
04-09-2012, 19:29
The simple facts are:
1. The government has the lawful authority to collect taxes.
2. Prohibiting those who owe large amounts in back taxes from leaving the country is a reasonable action.

Who pays taxes, how much they pay, what the money gets spent on and whether or not the method of collection is moral or economically beneficial are wholly separate issues.

HarlDane
04-09-2012, 19:31
Yeah, and where does this **** end? Next up, is ANYTHING that can possibly be classified as any sort of "tax evasion" will be a federal crime. Like not reporting certain kinds of illicit income. Millions of Al Capones out there, ya know.

http://money.msn.com/taxes/bribes-thefts-and-other-taxable-gains.aspxNext up? This isn't new. Illegal income has always been taxable.

rhikdavis
04-09-2012, 19:37
I wish I made enough to have a 50,000 tax bill.

I hate how they hide tons of unrelated **** in one bill. There oughtta be a law against THAT!

Sons of *****es!

podwich
04-09-2012, 22:58
Chains? I don't waste time wallowing around feeling sorry for myself. Be a man. Pay your bills... all of them. No one gets to live like they are the only person in the world. No one gets to only have things exactly like they want them. If you don't like everything that taxes support, so what? There are folks who feel just as strongly about paying taxes to support things you think are worthwhile. That's just the way the world works. Be man enough to pay up. If you make the money, pay the tax and don't run around crying and whining because you don't get to make all the decisions about where the money comes from and how it is spent. You don't like it? Come November, cast your ballot. And live with the consequences.

Be a man? Really? The national debt is $15.6 trillion (and growing rapidly). US unfunded liabilities are $118 trillion. Our deficit

"Be man enough to pay up. If you make the money, pay the tax and don't run around crying and whining because you don't get to make all the decisions about where the money comes from and how it is spent."

Really? Get a life. Debt this insane is a chain. Not cool.

Brucev
04-10-2012, 06:31
Be a man? Really? The national debt is $15.6 trillion (and growing rapidly). US unfunded liabilities are $118 trillion. Our deficit

"Be man enough to pay up. If you make the money, pay the tax and don't run around crying and whining because you don't get to make all the decisions about where the money comes from and how it is spent."

Really? Get a life. Debt this insane is a chain. Not cool.

I am not unaware that U.S. debt has reached the level of the extreme. It got that way because everyone was willing to party down and let the next generation pay the price. Now the time to party is winding down. And the time to pay up is drawing close. The price that must now be paid is a nightmare. But lets be honest. It is a nightmare that everyone of us without exception created. There is no one who has not been the beneficiary of this mess. From the social welfare programs so many despise to the military industrial welfare that has been ruinous to this nation, all have been responsible, without exception.

Who's going to do the paying? We are. And everyone else. The was to do the job is to spread the pain out. Cut unessential social services. Cut the military to defense and not a international police force/rent a cop/nation building force. Raise marginal rates to the levels that were the norm of the post WWII 1950's era. That will be a start. It will not be done overnight. But it will get done.

Brucev
04-10-2012, 06:32
There aren't enough folks paying taxes.

Agreed. To many of the upper income earners are able to shelter their income, use loop-holes, etc., to avoid paying their obligations. That is no surprise. They are the ones who have bought and paid for the legislators who write the tax laws.

aircarver
04-10-2012, 06:34
Agreed. To many of the upper income earners are able to shelter their income, use loop-holes, etc., to avoid paying their obligations. That is no surprise. They are the ones who have bought and paid for the legislators who write the tax laws.
So howcum they're still paying for 70% of the gubbermint ?

.

certifiedfunds
04-10-2012, 06:40
Agreed. To many of the upper income earners are able to shelter their income, use loop-holes, etc., to avoid paying their obligations. That is no surprise. They are the ones who have bought and paid for the legislators who write the tax laws.

Please show me some of these shelters or loopholes. Please. I'm begging you.

certifiedfunds
04-10-2012, 06:42
Be a man? Really? The national debt is $15.6 trillion (and growing rapidly). US unfunded liabilities are $118 trillion. Our deficit

"Be man enough to pay up. If you make the money, pay the tax and don't run around crying and whining because you don't get to make all the decisions about where the money comes from and how it is spent."

Really? Get a life. Debt this insane is a chain. Not cool.

Be a man. Grab your ankles.

DustyJacket
04-10-2012, 06:59
...allow the State Department to revoke, deny or limit passports for anyone the Internal Revenue Service certifies as having “a seriously delinquent tax debt in an amount in excess of $50,000....

I wonder if this has anything to do with Obama's recently announce "Buffet tax" plan for increasing the taxes paid by the wealthy, whomever they are?

Hit the rich with a new tax, and prevent them from leaving the country......

I wish I had such troubles, though. $50,000 in taxes requires quite an annual income. (Or years of not paying taxes at my salary level. Many years.)

certifiedfunds
04-10-2012, 07:13
Does anyone really think that a person is going to flee the U.S. to escape a $50,000 tax bill? $100,000?

Suppose for a moment that one's employment is contingent upon international travel.

Then suppose that someone is in a situation where the IRS claims they owe $50,000 but their tax advisors disagree.

Now, suppose what would happen if the government imposed a retroactive tax.

This is horrible, despicable behavior by the government. Nothing new though. Your freedom is being restricted without being found guilty by a court of law.

Bren
04-10-2012, 07:20
Agreed. To many of the upper income earners are able to shelter their income, use loop-holes, etc., to avoid paying their obligations. That is no surprise. They are the ones who have bought and paid for the legislators who write the tax laws.

The tax laws are all right out there in black and white. When someone follows them, that somehow translates to the left as "shelters" and "loopholes." A "loophole" is no more than a law that works for somebody you don't like, whether it's tax or gun buying.

By your logic, the "good people" are the ones paying more tax than the law says they owe, because they don't know how to correctly manage their money and figure out their tax liability. How can that make sense?

We have some pretty strict tax laws - as others have said, I'd be interested in your theory about these tax loopholes and shelters. You mean terrible things like giving money to charity? - you still have to give away more money than it costs to pay the taxes.

My first guess is that you are repeating left-wing talking points, without rerally knowing the basis for them, just like those who talk about "gun-show loopholes" and "loopholes" in self defense law.

certifiedfunds
04-10-2012, 07:41
The tax laws are all right out there in black and white. When someone follows them, that somehow translates to the left as "shelters" and "loopholes." A "loophole" is no more than a law that works for somebody you don't like, whether it's tax or gun buying.

By your logic, the "good people" are the ones paying more tax than the law says they owe, because they don't know how to correctly manage their money and figure out their tax liability. How can that make sense?

We have some pretty strict tax laws - as others have said, I'd be interested in your theory about these tax loopholes and shelters. You mean terrible things like giving money to charity? - you still have to give away more money than it costs to pay the taxes.

My first guess is that you are repeating left-wing talking points, without rerally knowing the basis for them, just like those who talk about "gun-show loopholes" and "loopholes" in self defense law.

Not only that but lets really take a look at who benefits the most from the tax code........

A guy making $50,000/yr with 2 kids, a mortgage, reasonable retirement contributions -- that guy pays a range of $0 - $3,000/yr in federal income tax, or 6% at the most.

A guy making $250,000 is gonna settle out around 20-25% or $62,500 in federal income tax.

Now, if you want to talk the turbo-rich, their money is mostly held in the form of unrealized capital gains. Like Romney they'll pay tax on dividends and long-term capital gains and see their fed tax drop to between 15-20%. So lets say you have $100MM and generate $2MM/yr in income, taxed at 17%. You pay $340,000 in taxes.

Q: So who does the tax code benefit?
A: The guy making $50,000

Brucev - FAIL

snerd
04-10-2012, 10:43
I am not unaware that U.S. debt has reached the level of the extreme. It got that way because everyone was willing to party down and let the next generation pay the price......
I think it got that way because we went along to get along. Of course, it's not too hard to employ that strategy with a gun at your head.

snerd
04-10-2012, 10:44
Does anyone really think that a person is going to flee the U.S. to escape a $50,000 tax bill? $100,000?

Suppose for a moment that one's employment is contingent upon international travel.

Then suppose that someone is in a situation where the IRS claims they owe $50,000 but their tax advisors disagree.

Now, suppose what would happen if the government imposed a retroactive tax.

This is horrible, despicable behavior by the government. Nothing new though. Your freedom is being restricted without being found guilty by a court of law.
The new liberal strategy........ guilty until proven innocent. For so long, they've claimed to hate big brother, now they are one.

Brucev
04-10-2012, 12:39
I think it got that way because we went along to get along. Of course, it's not too hard to employ that strategy with a gun at your head.

"because we went along to get along." Agree completely.

Brucev
04-10-2012, 12:44
Not only that but lets really take a look at who benefits the most from the tax code........

A guy making $50,000/yr with 2 kids, a mortgage, reasonable retirement contributions -- that guy pays a range of $0 - $3,000/yr in federal income tax, or 6% at the most.

A guy making $250,000 is gonna settle out around 20-25% or $62,500 in federal income tax.

Now, if you want to talk the turbo-rich, their money is mostly held in the form of unrealized capital gains. Like Romney they'll pay tax on dividends and long-term capital gains and see their fed tax drop to between 15-20%. So lets say you have $100MM and generate $2MM/yr in income, taxed at 17%. You pay $340,000 in taxes.

Q: So who does the tax code benefit?
A: The guy making $50,000

Brucev - FAIL[/QUOTE]

The beneficiaries of the tax code are those who get to pay 17% on income that anyone else would have to pay much higher rates on... except of course that the tax laws are written by the wealthy for the benefit of the wealthy. Call it whatever you want to... income is income. To play silly games saying it isn't really the same because it is a dividend, capital gains, etc., is just a way of giving those folks a tax break at the expense of everyone else. Treat all income as income plain and simple. And tax it exactly the same way without regard to how it was made... whether a day laborer made it with a shovel in a ditch or a banker made it with a pen stealing someone else's retirement, etc.

hamster
04-10-2012, 12:48
If someone takes 100% of the fruits of my labor from me at gunpoint I'm a slave. What am I when someone takes 35-50% of the fruits of my labor at gunpoint?

Angry Fist
04-10-2012, 12:59
Next up? This isn't new. Illegal income has always been taxable.
Yes sir, but what I meant was a 1984-esque situation where the locals can bust you for selling a little bit of dope, and you get a few months in the can. Then the feds lock your ass up for years for tax evasion for not reporting the 5 bucks you made. Something like that.

certifiedfunds
04-10-2012, 13:08
Not only that but lets really take a look at who benefits the most from the tax code........

A guy making $50,000/yr with 2 kids, a mortgage, reasonable retirement contributions -- that guy pays a range of $0 - $3,000/yr in federal income tax, or 6% at the most.

A guy making $250,000 is gonna settle out around 20-25% or $62,500 in federal income tax.

Now, if you want to talk the turbo-rich, their money is mostly held in the form of unrealized capital gains. Like Romney they'll pay tax on dividends and long-term capital gains and see their fed tax drop to between 15-20%. So lets say you have $100MM and generate $2MM/yr in income, taxed at 17%. You pay $340,000 in taxes.

Q: So who does the tax code benefit?
A: The guy making $50,000

Brucev - FAIL

.[/QUOTE]

The beneficiaries of the tax code are those who get to pay 17% on income that anyone else would have to pay much higher rates on. Hogwash. They're paying more taxes than anyone else in the example.

.. except of course that the tax laws are written by the wealthy for the benefit of the wealthy. Then why do they impose virtually the nation's entire tax burden on themselves?

Call it whatever you want to... income is income. To play silly games saying it isn't really the same because it is a dividend, capital gains, etc., is just a way of giving those folks a tax break at the expense of everyone else. More hogwash. Wanna play havoc with the capital markets? Increase the tax on dividends and capital gains to 35%. See how many lower and middle class workers end up on the unemployment lines.

And for what?

Not only will it not increase revenues to the treasury -- the wealthy will restructure their money to avoid it -- but increasing revenues to the fed is pointless and counterproductive.

Treat all income as income plain and simple. So you'd support a flat tax reducing everyone's rate to the level of LTCG and dividends?

And tax it exactly the same way without regard to how it was made... whether a day laborer made it with a shovel in a ditch or a banker made it with a pen stealing someone else's retirement, etc First of all, the day laborer isn't paying federal income taxes.

Secondly, so long as you're willing to impose the same tax rate on everyone -- day laborer included -- you have an intellectual argument. However, I think you'll find much objection among the lower and middle classes when you start snatching 15% of their income when they're paying 5% or less now.

Just Progressive nonsense, and, from a guy that runs a non-profit that doesn't pay any taxes -- am I right? If so, not only do you run a business that isn't paying taxes you benefit from the tax code as its written now where folks in the higher brackets get to deduct donations made to your little enterprise.