Rubbing Alcohol [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Lampshade
04-09-2012, 12:01
70% vs 90%.... any practical difference between the two?

sebecman
04-09-2012, 12:29
The more alchohol in a solution, the quicker it will evaporate.

For wound care and hand sanitizing the 70% is better because the 90% will evaporate before it can completely do it's job.

Bolster
04-09-2012, 14:31
I don't know your intended use, but isopropyl is no longer recommended for cleaning of wounds. It kills cells and then those dead cells become part of the problem...or so it's been explained to me by EMT friends & physician.

Still great for sterilizing instruments, altho it's very hard on your hands (dries them out).

It's a shame we can't buy pure ethanol. It can do everything isoporpyl can do...and more!!

G22Dude
04-09-2012, 16:04
I don't know your intended use, but isopropyl is no longer recommended for cleaning of wounds. It kills cells and then those dead cells become part of the problem...or so it's been explained to me by EMT friends.

Still great for sterilizing instruments, altho it's very hard on your hands (dries them out).

It's a shame we can't buy pure ethanol. It can do everything isoporpyl can do...and more!!

I was a little skeptical of this opinion so I checked WEBMD, and sure enough that is the position. I had always heard this about hydrogen peroxide but not rubbing alcohol. There goes 30 + years of strongly held belief. I was literally in the grocery store and pharmacy this weekend pricing bottles of alcohol for this purpose.

kewa0501
04-09-2012, 16:11
70% vs 90%.... any practical difference between the two?

70% is better for cleansing areas prior to puncture (as in sutures, IV starts etc.) the water is required to make the alcohol work.

90% works great in little pop can stoves for emergencies (if you have seen those before)

thesurefire
04-09-2012, 17:03
I stock both. 90% for fuel and 70% for wound treatment. As already stated alcohol isnt ideal for treating wounds, but it sure beats nothing.

Anyone interested in pure ethanol should check out everclear, its only 95% pure, and pretty expensive at 35 dollars for 1.75 liters from most liquor stores. Its works super well in popcan stoves, and if needed it can get you drunk.

I don't know if this true or not but some friends told me with a normal precision still you can take vodka from 40% to 95+% with just a few runs.

Bolster
04-09-2012, 18:12
Anyone interested in pure ethanol should check out everclear, its only 95% pure, and pretty expensive at 35 dollars for 1.75 liters from most liquor stores.

Just add everclear to non-carb-compliant generators and berkey filters as one more thing unavailable in los angeles. Didn't realize it was that expensive tho!!

I'd like to know more about further distilling vodka...got a lead on that? What's a 'precision still'?

Devans0
04-09-2012, 20:14
I'm not a lab guy so I don't know about "precision" as quoted, but distillation with a careful control of condensate temperature to drop the vapors below H2O steam temps will condense out the water fractions, then condensing the ethanol vapors in a second fraction will give a purer condensate and a third fraction to remove the even lower temperature vapors. Repeated runs will give 25% water, then 20% of 25% (5%), then 15% 0f 20....(3%).. until you get a pure enough ethanol.

If instead of vodka, using corn mash and enzymes/acids to break the starches to sugars, you will have a mash that is better feed because of the yeast adding B complex nutrients and only lose starch, which cattle don't digest anyway. They just leave steaming piles of it in the field.... Or so I've read.:tequila: Everclear has so much tax, it isn't cost effective IMO.

Lampshade
04-09-2012, 20:39
I don't know your intended use, but isopropyl is no longer recommended for cleaning of wounds. It kills cells and then those dead cells become part of the problem...or so it's been explained to me by EMT friends.

So what is the currently recommended method of disinfecting wounds?

Carry16
04-09-2012, 20:54
I am not a medical professional, but my method is to clean with soap and water and then apply betadine.

So what is the currently recommended method of disinfecting wounds?

Bolster
04-10-2012, 00:10
I am not a medical professional, but my method is to clean with soap and water and then apply betadine.

^ This is what the EMTs are telling me.

Lampshade
04-10-2012, 06:36
Good info.... to whoever referenced using the 90% as fuel in "pop can stoves...." are you referring to something like a Coleman stove that runs off Coleman Fuel and or Gasoline?

Bilbo Bagins
04-10-2012, 06:52
70% is better for cleansing areas prior to puncture (as in sutures, IV starts etc.) the water is required to make the alcohol work.

90% works great in little pop can stoves for emergencies (if you have seen those before)

I have, and NO do not use 90% alcohol in a alcohol stove, especially a home made can stove.

Lets just say I know from experience that 70% is fine and works about the same a HEET, or denatured alcohol.

90% will burn very bright and throw of some seriously high flames to the point of being "unstable" in some homemade stoves. :burn:


Lampshade, here is what an alcohol can stove is and how to make one. They are big with ultralight hikers, and some preppers/survivalist. If youare not handy and want to just buy one, check out REI.

http://www.peskybeaver.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/heineken-alcohol-stove-2.jpg

The Perfect Alcohol Stove, part 1 - YouTube

The Perfect Alcohol Stove, part 2 - YouTube

kewa0501
04-10-2012, 07:22
When I built one (just for fun) I had no problems running it off of the "HEAT" brand gas additive. Which, as far as I know, is just alcohol and some other petroleum distillates.

To each there own.

Bilbo Bagins
04-10-2012, 13:10
When I built one (just for fun) I had no problems running it off of the "HEAT" brand gas additive. Which, as far as I know, is just alcohol and some other petroleum distillates.

To each there own.

Yea I usually use HEET too, but I also use rubbing alcohol and denatured because its cheaper. The reason I use HEET is its a lot is its easier to find. You need a drug store or supermarket for rubbing Alcohol, but every podunk gas station has a bottle of Heet for sale.

Here is an article about various alcohol stove and all the fuel combos.
http://zenstoves.net/Stoves.htm

Ramjet38
04-10-2012, 17:48
I've used isopropyl on cuts for 61 years and I can't tell that my cells give a damn, and they look fine to me. More than likely it's pansyassed that can't take a little sting...more BS.

Bolster
04-10-2012, 19:15
I've used isopropyl on cuts for 61 years and I can't tell that my cells give a damn, and they look fine to me. More than likely it's pansyassed that can't take a little sting...more BS.

Yeah, what do those pansyassed EMTs or physicians know, and why would anyone want to heal faster anyway. Hell just rub dirt into it if you're a real man. What the hell's a cell anyway, never seen one. There's been no medical advances in the past fiddy years nohow...all BS.

Carry16
04-10-2012, 20:25
Those little annoying cuts you get while gardening surely benefit from the alcohol. If you get a REAL wound I have been instructed by schooled medical doctors to use soap, any soap and plenty of clean water to cleanse and irrigate the wound, then apply betadine. I'm 70 myself, and I've used lots of hydrogen peroxide over the years, but today they don't recommend it. I still use it as well as alcohol on a scratch, but I would not on a serious wound. YMMV :wavey:

I've used isopropyl on cuts for 61 years and I can't tell that my cells give a damn, and they look fine to me. More than likely it's pansyassed that can't take a little sting...more BS.

sebecman
04-11-2012, 08:19
Yeah, what do those pansyassed EMTs or physicians know, and why would anyone want to heal faster anyway. Hell just rub dirt into it if you're a real man. What the hell's a cell anyway, never seen one. There's been no medical advances in the past fiddy years nohow...all BS.

I use alcohol and peroxide for small cuts as my parents and their parents did and I will continue to use it on my children. It works and it's cheap.

Not sure what the big deal is?

Bolster
04-11-2012, 09:01
Not sure what the big deal is?

Since you are pressing the issue: The reasoning, or lack thereof.

I find it remarkable how some people reject new, even helpful information (in this case, faster healing rates) with extreme prejudice, and attributing (with no evidence) the new practice to a lack of balls...that people who don't use Isopropyl for injuries are pansies. The reasoning seems to be: "I've been doing it for fiddy years and that's proof my way's best." I don't even know what that logical fallacy is called. Perhaps Argumentum Ad Codgerum.

Carry on, use what you want. The speed at which you heal is your affair, not mine. (Unless we get socialized medicine, of course, in which case every single health decision you make, impacts my pocketbook, and is therefore my affair.)

sebecman
04-11-2012, 11:27
Since you are pressing the issue: The reasoning, or lack thereof.

I find it remarkable how some people reject new, even helpful information (in this case, faster healing rates) with extreme prejudice, and attributing (with no evidence) the new practice to a lack of balls...that people who don't use Isopropyl for injuries are pansies. The reasoning seems to be: "I've been doing it for fiddy years and that's proof my way's best." I don't even know what that logical fallacy is called. Perhaps Argumentum Ad Codgerum.

Carry on, use what you want. The speed at which you heal is your affair, not mine. (Unless we get socialized medicine, of course, in which case every single health decision you make, impacts my pocketbook, and is therefore my affair.)

I find your attitude and tone of late a bit out of character.

As for your claims, care to back them up with more than "some EMT friends of mine told me"?

Where I come from family tradition and time tested proven results mean more than some guy on the internet.

WayaX
04-11-2012, 11:56
Since you are pressing the issue: The reasoning, or lack thereof.

I find it remarkable how some people reject new, even helpful information (in this case, faster healing rates) with extreme prejudice, and attributing (with no evidence) the new practice to a lack of balls...that people who don't use Isopropyl for injuries are pansies. The reasoning seems to be: "I've been doing it for fiddy years and that's proof my way's best." I don't even know what that logical fallacy is called. Perhaps Argumentum Ad Codgerum.

Carry on, use what you want. The speed at which you heal is your affair, not mine. (Unless we get socialized medicine, of course, in which case every single health decision you make, impacts my pocketbook, and is therefore my affair.)

Part of it is simply that 70% IPA is widely available, and to a decent agree, it works.

70% IPA will kill most bacteria (certain spore formers will survive IPA) and a good deal of viruses. It will not kill fungi or yeast. In most immuno-competent people, fungi and yeast aren't a huge issue.

Soap and water is a good choice too...if available. These things aren't always readily available. The key to soap and water is that the water has to be decently clean (sterile isn't needed, most tap water works okay). In the event of certain natural disasters, water quality may be compromised. You could use stored water, but then you'd have less to drink. Ideally, the cut should be washed with soap and water, and then have antibiotic cream applied. soap and water then alcohol is a less ideal alternative, but it beats nothing.

Are there better things than IPA for wounds? Absolutely. Should you stock up on them? Probably. The downside to antibiotic based creams is they have a very limited shelf-life.

So IPA is always good to have on hand, as is triple cream.

I would mention one other thing, too. Having the materials on hand is not the same as knowing how to use them. If possible, I suggest taking a first responder class.

sebecman
04-11-2012, 12:01
I did a little poking around the interwebs and it seems the opinions vary widely and most debates boil down to "whatever you are comfortable with"

Most sources say just use hot soapy water and if you have to use them, use hydrogen peroxide to clean the wound and then a quick disinfect of the cut and the area around it, before applying a bandage.

Hot soapy water? Great if you got it.....advantages of alcohol and peroxide are when you don't. As an ex commercial fisherman, dock worker and timber harvester I can tell you that hot soapy water is a luxury in certain conditions/locales.

Regarding healing time: I have never noticed a decreased healing time and have used and not used everything mentioned. Can't tell the difference.

nursetim
04-11-2012, 12:03
Soap and running water for wound cleaning. Running water equally effective for wound cleaning as sterile water according to a study I read several years back and echoed since.

sebecman
04-11-2012, 12:04
Another product used widely in my area for wound care is Witch Hazel, not sure if it's that well known outside of New England though?

sebecman
04-11-2012, 12:09
Soap and running water for wound cleaning. Running water equally effective for wound cleaning as sterile water according to a study I read several years back and echoed since.

You are harvesting timber on the side of a mountain in northern Maine and you just cut your leg when you tripped and fell, landing on your limbing saw...it's 90 degrees and you have mud/dirt/sweat and all manner of crap in the wound....tell me where you are going to get soap and running water?

garyo
04-11-2012, 12:45
I side with with Ramjet38, been using it for many years and never a problem. A few months ago I was in Wal-Mart and I did see 50% rubbing alcohol. Maybe newly released due to the above findings. I have no intention to stop using my 70%.

Bolster
04-11-2012, 13:47
I find your attitude and tone of late a bit out of character.

Likewise! I was taken aback by the challenging reaction, and had no idea this list had such staunch defenders of Isopropyl and Hydro Peroxide (the latter of which also has a very short shelf life). Why this unswerving allegiance? I'd take less crap for cursing your deity. Why is new information "BS" given by "pansyasses"? Did you read this post?

I've used isopropyl on cuts for 61 years and I can't tell that my cells give a damn, and they look fine to me. More than likely it's pansyassed that can't take a little sting...more BS.

No, I'm not responding to reference challenges. My EMT friends and physician and my own independent research are not merely "some guy on the internet." The information regards efficacy of various antiseptics is widely available to all, do your own research, I've done mine and am content. If medical professionals are telling me to use better antiseptics than Iso and HP, and there are healing advantages for doing so, I listen. I don't just go 1950s reactionary on them. I don't consider new medical research "BS" for "pansies." I haven't done controlled studies, neither have you. The medical profession has.

I was a little skeptical of this opinion so I checked WEBMD, and sure enough that is the position. I had always heard this about hydrogen peroxide but not rubbing alcohol. There goes 30 + years of strongly held belief.

But some people cling to 30 years of strongly held belief like it's a religion, I guess.

I backed off this argument when I said, "Carry on. Use what you want." I meant it. It's not my job to change your minds or pick your meds. Sure, Iso is better than nothing. Nobody's arguing that. Long shelf life, and useful as a prep. Nobody's arguing that either. I stock it, but not for chainsaw wounds.

Didn't I back off enough? What are you looking for, a retraction? A complete capitulation? Did I diss a personal friend of yours? If I say "I was wrong, Isopropyl is the best antiseptic ever, and always will be, I am just a pansy, it stings" would y'all be content?

In the future, I'll try harder to only voice the consensus opinion of 61 years ago. Heaven forbid anybody should learn anything new on a forum.

http://flowerforweddings1.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Pansy-Flower-Pictures1.jpg

Ramjet38
04-11-2012, 17:54
Geez...trying to inject a little humor and yes experience. No need to over complicate a minor flesh wound into "all my EMT friends do it this way". Yes, I do use antiseptic gel and a bandaid at times too. bottom line there's more than on way to skin a cat, and my flesh isn't goin' to fall off if I use a little alcohol on the inards and outards both.

sebecman
04-12-2012, 05:24
:supergrin:

Bolster, I think you are confusing posts/posters. I never challenged you, other than to ask for more clarity than "my EMT friends said so"

Go back and re-read what I wrote if you care to.

:wavey:

sebecman
04-12-2012, 05:37
double tap

Deputydave
04-12-2012, 06:41
As a clarification, the pop can stoves can be run off of 70% isoprophic alcohol as well as 90% and denatured?

And as a side note, thank you to the poster on the first page for putting the youtube vids in the post. Very educational. I'd like to try that out. Sounds like a good father-son project.

Bushflyr
04-12-2012, 11:56
That stove is awesome. I'd seen other designs, but this one is the first that actually inspired me to build it.

nursetim
04-13-2012, 11:02
You are harvesting timber on the side of a mountain in northern Maine and you just cut your leg when you tripped and fell, landing on your limbing saw...it's 90 degrees and you have mud/dirt/sweat and all manner of crap in the wound....tell me where you are going to get soap and running water?

Fine, pee on it as urine is sterile. Pour your water on it. Running something except feces.

I find you lack of deference disturbing.:supergrin:

sebecman
04-13-2012, 11:59
Fine, pee on it as urine is sterile. Pour your water on it. Running something except feces.

I find you lack of deference disturbing.:supergrin:

This particular gash was on the right side of my right calf...I would have had to ask one of my co workers to pee on it for me. If you saw these guys you probably wouldn't want to do that either....:supergrin:

racerford
04-13-2012, 12:21
Fine, pee on it as urine is sterile. Pour your water on it. Running something except feces.

I find you lack of deference disturbing.:supergrin:

Generally speaking urine is sterile. What if the helping party had a bladder infection? Also there are bacteria in the urethra and some level of ammonia. To be safer the cleansing should start midstream.

Wouldn't it be safer just to clean it with drinking water?

If the gash is bad enought, stopping bleeding is more important that cleaning. They will die of blood loss before infection, most likely.

Babynine
04-13-2012, 16:57
You are harvesting timber on the side of a mountain in northern Maine and you just cut your leg when you tripped and fell, landing on your limbing saw...it's 90 degrees and you have mud/dirt/sweat and all manner of crap in the wound....tell me where you are going to get soap and running water?

The Old-Timer Mors Kochanski, in his book titled "Bushcraft" describes a similer situation and recommends against washing a wound when water is available, as it is likely that more bacteria will be forced into the wound. He also recommends lots of oxygen and sunlight on the wound.

In the situation where no bandages are available, Mors Kochanski recommends covering the wound with a "clean cloth well smeared with the resin found in the bark blisters of balsam fir or porsild's white spruce"

I also like your earlier comment about trying it all and having not noticed a difference in healing times.

I am an avid organic gardener, and have noticed that untreated cuts on my hands exposed to my bacterially active compost, and even bacterially active areated compost tea, all seem to heal at least as fast as a washed out wound treated with antimicrobials. I almost believe these untreaded wounds, exposed to soil microbes, seem to heal the fastest, and the most pain free.

Not recommending anyone to try it though, as I have zero first aid training.

racerford
04-13-2012, 22:27
....
I am an avid organic gardener, and have noticed that untreated cuts on my hands exposed to my bacterially active compost, and even bacterially active areated compost tea, all seem to heal at least as fast as a washed out wound treated with antimicrobials. I almost believe these untreaded wounds, exposed to soil microbes, seem to heal the fastest, and the most pain free.

Not recommending anyone to try it though, as I have zero first aid training.

Things are not what they used to be. Pseudomonas which is commonly found in soils has developed a number of varieties, some of which promote plant growth and others which infect open wounds. The latter also seems to be developing strains with resistance to certain antibiotics. So if a wound starts oozing green and it has a kind of sweet smell to it.... you probably have a Pseudomonas infection. We know this through familial experience. It is not as much fun as it sounds:crying:

YMMV

Babynine
04-14-2012, 08:09
Things are not what they used to be. Pseudomonas which is commonly found in soils has developed a number of varieties, some of which promote plant growth and others which infect open wounds. The latter also seems to be developing strains with resistance to certain antibiotics. So if a wound starts oozing green and it has a kind of sweet smell to it.... you probably have a Pseudomonas infection. We know this through familial experience. It is not as much fun as it sounds:crying:

YMMV
Now seems like a far beter time than ever to find out what my immune system can handle, and possibly boost it up a bit by keeping it active.

I'm not out stuffing open gaping wounds with dirt, but smaller cuts on my hands I just leave them how they are with no bandage as I go digging through my compost and garden soil.

As far as Pseudomanas go, I know nothing 'bout them, and what I dont know cant hurt me right?

nursetim
04-14-2012, 09:03
This particular gash was on the right side of my right calf...I would have had to ask one of my co workers to pee on it for me. If you saw these guys you probably wouldn't want to do that either....:supergrin:

I'm terribly sorry about your "SHORT" comings.:rofl::rofl::rofl::wavey:

Yes, drinking water would be preferred.