10mm gel tests [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Andrew Wiggin
04-09-2012, 17:00
Not that I'm not grateful for 21Carrier's hard work, but I'd really like to see some gel tests of 155gr or 165gr Gold Dot. For that matter, I'd like to see ANY 10mm load tested in calibrated ballistic gelatin, besides that one test on Brassfetcher. One of the advantages of this cartridge is its versatility but without data, I have no idea what to "shoot" for with my handloads for good defense ammo. Are there tests out there that I've missed?

TDC20
04-09-2012, 20:41
McNett posted DoubleTap ballistic gelatin results (I think these were back when DoubleTap ammo actually made the advertised velocities) over on The 10 Ring:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336612

That should give you some data on a few bullets and velocities.

Andrew Wiggin
04-10-2012, 11:07
Awesome, thanks.

The numbers seem roughly consistent with 21Carrier's wax tests but I am somewhat suspicious because of DT's trouble with velocity claims. Working my way through that thread now. Thanks again.

windplex
04-10-2012, 11:25
sorry wrong thread

WeeWilly
04-10-2012, 11:36
Pretty surprised how well the 230gr .45ACP held up, albeit 1000+ fps is pretty hot for that big a 45 slug.

Andrew Wiggin
04-10-2012, 13:00
Okay, finished reading and it looks like McNett was lying again. His claim of 1,400 fps for a 165 gr projo was hard to swallow in the first place, but the M4C results on .40 S&W seem to discredit these gel test numbers. Add that on top of the fact that DT has been caught lying about velocity in the past and I have a hard time believing ANY numbers that come from a representative of that company. They seem more interested in a few quick sales due to BS advertising than sustained sales due to a solid reputation.

WeeWilly
04-10-2012, 14:33
Okay, finished reading and it looks like McNett was lying again. His claim of 1,400 fps for a 165 gr projo was hard to swallow in the first place, but the M4C results on .40 S&W seem to discredit these gel test numbers. Add that on top of the fact that DT has been caught lying about velocity in the past and I have a hard time believing ANY numbers that come from a representative of that company. They seem more interested in a few quick sales due to BS advertising than sustained sales due to a solid reputation.

So are you saying you think he never did the test and just published false data?

I can see how someone might publish velocity results that are wrong, a bad chrony is all it takes for that to happen. But rulers are pretty fail safe.

Andrew Wiggin
04-10-2012, 15:02
Not really. He might have done the tests but fudged the numbers. Some of the data is in line with what other people have seen and some is entirely inconsistent. I'd just like to see more data. Even properly performed tests from a credible source can include errors so without at least two independent tests, results are hardly conclusive. Maybe the penetration figures are correct but the velocity figures are their BS claim. The expanded measurement is consistent with what I've seen from a 155gr Gold Dot in water.

What do you think, especially in regards to the 155 and 165 grain tests? Do you think he was actually getting those velocities from 4.6" barrels? Do you believe the projos went to the depths claimed, and if so, at what actual impact velocity?

ETA: Just so's people don't have to keep going back and forth over to the other thread:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"


Claimed: 10%, 4 layers denim, 2 layers cotton T shirt, Stock G20.

WeeWilly
04-10-2012, 18:00
I am not familiar enough with 10mm to make any conclusions, even on the velocity claims. I was surprised when I saw 230gr .45 ACP velocity as 1000+ fps for that round is really motoring. I have loaded .45 Super level loads that barely get to that number, but I have not shot them from a long barrel, 5" being the longest.

As far as the penetration test results, again my experience is more with .45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm, and the penetration of the 230gr 45 seemed really deep, but again I have never gotten one to go that fast. Velocity does funny things to penetration, a 100fps with a heavy slug can make a pretty big difference in penetration.

I guess what I am puzzled about is what the motivation for "fudging" might be. I mean, it is not like any of his competitors publish such penetration test results, so why would you just start adding inches, dunno.

Andrew Wiggin
04-10-2012, 18:08
I dunno, either. It just seems suspect. As you mention, some of the numbers don't seem right and he's been known to lie about other stuff.

http://www.vinotrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/x-files-believe.jpg

Ethereal Killer
04-10-2012, 20:02
Andrew,
one of the mani sources of inconsistencies with measuring projectile expansion is the improper method of measurement. Most laymen believe that it is just a single measurement at the widest point of expansion, but in reality it is an average of at least two measurements... one at the widest and one at the narrowest points of expansion.

this alone causes a lot of confusion so when people particularly laymen report x" of expansion I take it with a grain of salt or that it was just at the widest point.

i believe that this may have been what mcnett may have done. I actually dont have any reason to doubt most of his velocity numbers he posted here as the "double tap does not meet claimed velocity" thing is relatively recent (last 2-3 years)

TDC20
04-10-2012, 20:19
I haven't been a member of GT all that long, but I did do a lot of archive reading when I started here, including most if not all of the stickies in both The 10 Ring and here in the 10mm Reloading Forum. It was well known that at one time, DoubleTap ammo had a great reputation for actually making the velocities that are still advertised on their boxes. But somewhere along the line in the past couple of years, DT has reduced their velocity well below what it once was. I'm not sure if there were liability claims or what, but it's well known that they no longer measure up to their claims. Even within the past year, there have been posts of people running much older DT ammo over a chrono and getting advertised velocity...and some Glock smiles, too.

That being said, when these gel tests were done, I'm pretty confident that the velocities recorded in these tests were accurate representations. Yes, you can reach 1400fps with a 165 gr bullet in a standard G20, though doing so requires the right tools, proper knowledge, the proper approach, and assumes some risks that could be disastrous for the shooter, his gun, and bystanders. But it can be done. McNett reported at least once that he had some of his loads pressure tested and they were below the SAAMI max 37,500 psi. If you look hard enough, you will find this info.

I have no affiliation with DT, have never met or even exchanged an e-mail or PM with Mike McNett. I don't approve of advertising bogus velocity numbers, but at one time, he did produce ammo that was very close to those claims.

However much he seems to be despised on this forum these days, Mike did a lot of valuable work with 10mm load development and testing, and shared it on this forum. I have used his data on several occasions to develop my own 10mm handloads, with chronographed results that back up his load data and velocity claims. Regardless of what has transpired at DoubleTap ammo company over the years, I am grateful for Mike's contributions and for sharing his data with the 10mm handloading community.

WeeWilly
04-10-2012, 22:25
I haven't been a member of GT all that long, but I did do a lot of archive reading when I started here, including most if not all of the stickies in both The 10 Ring and here in the 10mm Reloading Forum. It was well known that at one time, DoubleTap ammo had a great reputation for actually making the velocities that are still advertised on their boxes. But somewhere along the line in the past couple of years, DT has reduced their velocity well below what it once was. I'm not sure if there were liability claims or what, but it's well known that they no longer measure up to their claims. Even within the past year, there have been posts of people running much older DT ammo over a chrono and getting advertised velocity...and some Glock smiles, too.

That being said, when these gel tests were done, I'm pretty confident that the velocities recorded in these tests were accurate representations. Yes, you can reach 1400fps with a 165 gr bullet in a standard G20, though doing so requires the right tools, proper knowledge, the proper approach, and assumes some risks that could be disastrous for the shooter, his gun, and bystanders. But it can be done. McNett reported at least once that he had some of his loads pressure tested and they were below the SAAMI max 37,500 psi. If you look hard enough, you will find this info.

I have no affiliation with DT, have never met or even exchanged an e-mail or PM with Mike McNett. I don't approve of advertising bogus velocity numbers, but at one time, he did produce ammo that was very close to those claims.

However much he seems to be despised on this forum these days, Mike did a lot of valuable work with 10mm load development and testing, and shared it on this forum. I have used his data on several occasions to develop my own 10mm handloads, with chronographed results that back up his load data and velocity claims. Regardless of what has transpired at DoubleTap ammo company over the years, I am grateful for Mike's contributions and for sharing his data with the 10mm handloading community.

Thanks for the perspective. Makes sense.

Andrew Wiggin
04-10-2012, 22:39
That makes me feel a bit better. I've read a lot on this and other forums before posting, too but I missed that the old loads were as advertised until recently. As always, your sigline applies. Rifle > pistol, even 10mm.

Jitterbug
04-11-2012, 07:59
Mike McNett and Glock played an important part in resurrecting a dying cartridge, I'll always be grateful for that.

I'm sure velocities were reduced for liability reasons, they're are just to many varibles involved.

I've got some older D.T. 155 grain Gold Dot's the box say's 1475 fps from a 4.6" barrel. I get 1362 fps from a 4.25" barrel, but they're low flash and accurate.

I only have about 50 rounds left and will burn through them, but I think I can duplicate the 1350 fps and call it a good carry load, with either a Gold Dot or XTP.

As far as the original OP is concerned, one consideration is to take .40 bullet testing data since there is more of it and I'm pretty sure ALL .400" bullets are designed for the .40, the 10mm at 10-30 % more velocity is going to yeild similar if not a bit better performance as long as the extra velocity doesn't outrun bullet design, personally I think pushing the 10mm to the very last fps is futile since the bullet is designed for the lower .40 S&W speeds.

4949shooter
04-11-2012, 08:13
Mike McNett and Glock played an important part in resurrecting a dying cartridge that few had any interest in, I'll always be grateful for that.



Something to think about.

Ak.Hiker
04-17-2012, 22:09
I have shot quite a variety of DT loads over the years. I have always been happy with his ammo. His 200 grain FMJ loads run great in my Glock 29. The older loads were loaded with the Hornady bullet and the newer loads are loaded with the Montana Gold. I like them both. The 200 grain Montana Gold FMJ has a very thick jacket and is a good load if you are looking for deep penetration as is the Hornady FMJ. I do think the older 10mm loads were a little hotter though. They load a really good 158 grain Gold Dot 357 Magnum load. Runs great in my Colt Python. They have several heavy Ruger 45 Colt loads that I like. The 255 grain cast Keith load is a good one and they now load the 300 grain Speer Unicore that runs great in My Blackhawk. I like to test out ammo from the smaller ammo makers. CorBon and Buffalo Bore make some good stuff as well.

Andrew Wiggin
04-18-2012, 13:15
American Eagle 180 gr ball "runs" just fine. That doesn't make it a good performer. It does, however, meet roughly the velocity printed on the box, however tame that might be.