The necessity of taking first aid classes [Archive] - Glock Talk

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bdcochran
04-11-2012, 16:56
Today, it happened unexpectedly. Al, age 90, fell off the exercycle next to me at the YMCA. He had lost consciousness and I caught him as he fell.

A quick evaluation that he was breathing and I went into action, directing multiple people to call 911 and others to lay him down on the floor.

The 5-6 minutes it took for the paramedics to arrive seemed like a half hour.

I gave the paramedics a detailed description of what Al had been doing and what I observed. Apparently, he had done this before.

I knew what to do because I am periodically retaking first aid and CPR classes.

I knew the lady on the third exercycle. She commented that she froze up because she didn't know what to do. Don't be that kind of person! Take the classes. The person you save may be a family member.:wavey:

Ay Dios Mio
04-11-2012, 18:39
Also take a First Aid for gunshot/trauma wounds class. The life you save may be your own. :cool:

Bolster
04-11-2012, 19:41
Don't be that kind of person! Take the classes. The person you save may be a family member.:wavey:

Word! Good save, my man. God bless ya for that. A CPR class is on my 'to do' list.

BTW, hat's off to the 90 year old working out at the gym, too.

RedHaze
04-11-2012, 19:50
That's one good thing I got out of four years as one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children.

Lot of First Aid, both self-aid and buddy-aid. And Combat Lifesavers Courses.


Good on you for knowing what to do!

racerford
04-11-2012, 20:07
I have taken several basic first aid courses over the years, including one for children when we were having a baby. Not much had changed over te years. Apparently I need to take a refresher again because a lot of things seemed to have changed in the last 5 years. Have they changed the position of any important organs?

I now understand I need to throw out all my alcohol and hydrogen peroxide, and the towelette versions as well. I should be carrying premixed soap (what kind of soap specifically? Lava, Ivory, Irish Spring, Dawn, Lye soap, Palmolive????) in an irrigation bottle.

Maybe I should take EMT training.

I believe taking first aid training is important. So is having supplies on hand. I know a number of people that are medically trained (nurses, doctors, EMTs, paramedics, dentists, etc) and I have more supplies and regularly carry more than any of the formally medically trained (more than a few basic classes) people I know.

sdsnet
04-11-2012, 20:52
Today, it happened unexpectedly. Al, age 90, fell off the exercycle next to me at the YMCA. He had lost consciousness and I caught him as he fell.

A quick evaluation that he was breathing and I went into action, directing multiple people to call 911 and others to lay him down on the floor.

The 5-6 minutes it took for the paramedics to arrive seemed like a half hour.

I gave the paramedics a detailed description of what Al had been doing and what I observed. Apparently, he had done this before.

I knew what to do because I am periodically retaking first aid and CPR classes.

I knew the lady on the third exercycle. She commented that she froze up because she didn't know what to do. Don't be that kind of person! Take the classes. The person you save may be a family member.:wavey:

You are absolutely right. I got certified in Red Cross CPR last year and then early this year ended up using what I learned to help save my wife's life after she collapsed in our car with sudden cardiac death.

CPR/AED and the Red Cross First Aid course are all extremely valuable knowledge. It is not difficult to learn and there is plenty of repetition so you will remember it forever. All it takes is one Saturday for the CPR/AED course. I always thought it would be an honor to save a stranger's life. I never expected it would be a loved one. I am so glad I took the course.

Steve

Big Bird
04-11-2012, 21:07
Just goes to show you it doesn't pay to work out.... ;)

lawman800
04-11-2012, 22:06
Amen, brother!

I had a professor pass out on me while she was lecturing in front of 80 students. I rushed down there and had her laying properly while directing the rest of the class who got up to see what happened. She was resuscitated in short order but nobody knew what to do other than me who had the basic academy training on First Aid/CPR.

TangoFoxtrot
04-12-2012, 04:26
First aid skills are just as important as shooting skills.

Kieller
04-12-2012, 06:00
Nice work BD. I'm also a firm believer in training and medical is one that should be on the forefront.

I am recertifying next week for CPR and basic first aid though my companies emergency response team. It's nice when its on the company dime :supergrin:

W.E.G.
04-12-2012, 06:54
I'm a strong advocate that people should take training (CPR, etc.)

But, let's look at the present case.
Patient was unconscious, but breathing.
I trust that everybody knows you don't do CPR on a patient who is breathing on his own.

The episode could have been any one of a multitude of things, to which the persons present could have offered no assistance other than to place the patient in a supine position, and call 911.

Unless you are a licensed paramedic, you are going to do little in a first aid situation other than:

call 911
perform CPR if the patient is not breathing, and has no pulse
apply direct pressure to bleeding
place patient in supine position
keep patient warm
cool patient if overheated
clear airway if obstructed


Fantastic scenarios of extreme measures in remote locations notwithstanding.

lawman800
04-12-2012, 07:23
First aid skills are just as important as shooting skills.

$20 says most people will use their first aid skills before they will use their shooting skills in real life.

Creatism
04-12-2012, 07:34
As a paramedic I can honestly say I wish more people were like the op! Take the class, go over scenarios just like you do with your dry fire practice.
In a CPR situation think about it like this. Basic BASIC CPR on a witnessed mi that is initiated with 1-2 min of the heart stoping has something like an 80% chance of walking out of the hospital. If you wait the 5-10 min for us to get there and figure out what's going on it can be 15+ min of no circulation. At that point the patents chances drop to 10% or worse.
What I'm saying is YOU can make a huge difference in someone's life by doing something simple like CPR.

I hope this makes sense I just got off work and am still waking up!


Typed from my iPhone.

quake
04-12-2012, 08:11
Good catch. :wavey:


...the lady on the third exercycle. She commented that she froze up because she didn't know what to do. Don't be that kind of person! Take the classes. The person you save may be a family member.:wavey:
On the 'froze up' thing, exactly right; no substitute for training/conditioning/practice. There's an old saying along the lines of, "In an emergency, a person doesn't rise the level of their ability, they default to the level of their training."

There's no good substitute for actually 'doing' it - whatever "it" is; even if it's just a simulated, "going thru the motions" version of doing it. First-aid, shooting, changing a diaper, whatever - you don't want your first hands-on experience to be when things are critical or out of control.

Paul53
04-12-2012, 12:14
You done good. 90 years old and on a bike? God bless him! As you pointed out, panic is a result of not knowing what to do. Thoroughly agree that CPR and first aid training should be high on everybody's list of things to do.

As a career ER/Trauma nurse, I can assure you that all bleeding stops...........eventually.


sdsnet, nice Bonanza!

bigleaf
04-12-2012, 12:30
When you're right, bdcochran, you're right. I haven't renewed in... could it be fifteen years already?? I'll sign up to take that class again. Thanks for reminding me.

SFCSMITH(RET)
04-12-2012, 14:21
$20 says most people will use their first aid skills before they will use their shooting skills in real life.

You can send me $20 anytime.. or for that matter about $120.

But over time, based on your $20 scenerio.. I am about even.

lawman800
04-12-2012, 21:10
You can send me $20 anytime.. or for that matter about $120.

But over time, based on your $20 scenerio.. I am about even.

Military and police aren't part of the sample population because they are in the profession that uses weapons but for civilian folk who live the sheeple life or whatnot, it would be true.

TangoFoxtrot
04-13-2012, 04:36
Nice work BD. I'm also a firm believer in training and medical is one that should be on the forefront.

I am recertifying next week for CPR and basic first aid though my companies emergency response team. It's nice when its on the company dime :supergrin:


Your right I'd rather practice on co-workers(especially the ones I don't like)then family members,and get paid to do it.:whistling:

Kieller
04-13-2012, 06:34
Your right I'd rather practice on co-workers(especially the ones I don't like)then family members,and get paid to do it.:whistling:

Bob's not breathing? shucks...

:supergrin:

Jake514
04-13-2012, 07:02
Your right I'd rather practice on co-workers(especially the ones I don't like)then family members,and get paid to do it.:whistling:

If you are union, it may depend on if they are ahead of you in senority!:rofl:

Dirk Pitt
04-17-2012, 16:29
Also take a First Aid for gunshot/trauma wounds class. The life you save may be your own. :cool:

Can you direct me to where I could find that class? I have taken all the usual first aid and CPR stuff and like the OP have used it all (not CPR). I have lots of First Aid Stuff for GSW and large trauma but not official training. Did have it in the Army but that was many many moons ago.

racerford
04-17-2012, 19:03
If you are not too old you could re-up to take the class. That may be a bit extreme......

Or just take a advanced first aid class and ask the question in class. Be careful how you ask. Saying "I hunt with others what do I need to do to treat an accidental gunshot wound?" as opposed to " I expect to be involved in running gun battles after society collapses. Can you describe how to treat a gun shot wound with expedient resources?".

The first way may get you a good answer.... the later, not so much.

TalkToTheGlock
04-17-2012, 19:14
I work Cardiac ICU, NeoNatal ICU, and med surg ICU. I think I'm good.

Also. Big tip for anyone worrying about cleaning wounds, because i am asked a lot. River water is just as good as sterile saline. Cleaning out debris, slough, pus, and any other junk is the most important when cleaning a wound.

Also, if you hunt practice suturing cuts on dead deer or pigs.

One last thing which many never think of is proper dressing. If you have a clean wound, with no infection that is dry, A wet packing with a dry covering is the best to promote wound healing. If you have a moist wound with a lot of drainage and infection l, dry packing with dry covering.

Any type of alginate, silver or calcium is great for infected wounds and circular tunnled wounds as they will help the wound grow equally without having further tunneling that will cause a fissure to form under the new skin growth. Plus, silver alginate has antimicrobial properties.

Gun shot wounds should be treated like any other tunneled wound, a good packing after irrigation. You don't want those GSW to become septic and cause infections which you will not be able to treat without PICC line antibiotics and will kill you.

Hope I gave a little info for some.





iPhone 4

Ay Dios Mio
04-17-2012, 23:59
This is the class I took last year. I highly recommend it. The last first aid class I took in the 70's came in handy when a friend got attacked by a hornet's nest and she went into anaphyactic shock. Things have changed in basic first aid...CPR doesn't include breathing and tourniquets are back.

http://www.firearmsacademy.com/other-topics/23-emergency-treatment-of-shotgun-wounds-and-related-trauma

Haldor
04-18-2012, 19:28
Best $200 investment is to take the Red Cross Emergency Response (First Responder) class. 48 hours of classroom instruction over 2 months on what to do in any kind of medical emergency. Emphasis is on keeping people alive until the EMTs get there and not getting yourself into trouble doing it.

Here is an example syllabus to what you get trained in.

http://home.windstream.net/jtrector/forms/First_Responder_Syllabus.pdf

If you want more indepth training then take the Wilderness First Responders course. It covers how to treat patients for extended periods of time (due to being in a remote location without access to medical care). This course covers more advanced procedures like reducing a dislocated joint, wound closure, when to call off resuscitation efforts etc. The Wilderness First Responders course is usually taught in one very intense week of 12 hour days.

I carry a medic kit in my car that covers everything I have been trained to do. The only thing I don't have is an O2 bottle or an AED (too pricey for me). You really have to avoid the temptation to be heroic about procedures you are not trained to do. I also don't carry any gear that I am not trained to use (no decompression needle or Cricothyrotomy kit). That way I won't be tempted to do something that is out of my scope.

racerford
04-18-2012, 22:58
...........I carry a medic kit in my car that covers everything I have been trained to do. The only thing I don't have is an O2 bottle or an AED (too pricey for me). You really have to avoid the temptation to be heroic about procedures you are not trained to do. I also don't carry any gear that I am not trained to use (no decompression needle or Cricothyrotomy kit). That way I won't be tempted to do something that is out of my scope.

Your training suggestions are excellent.

The fact that one has to have a prescription to get an oxygen bottle kit has always baffled me. Oxygen the most basic substance you need to survive is regulated as a "drug". Beyond absurd.

People often talk about not buying and carrying/having medical equipment you are not trained to use. I respect your personal decision not to do so. I just want to share a personal experience about why I don't agree with that position.

We were driving on I10 through Florida when a 80 mph rollover accident occurred 2 cars in front of us. We immediately pulled over and my wife jump out and ran to the car. Of the 6-8 people that went to the vehicle, there was one nurse and one doctor. We were the only ones with a substantial first kit (more than a booboo kit). The doctor and nurse had nothing. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries of the two people in the car (scrapes and bruises). It took 20 minutes for an ambulance to come, even with 911 calls describing the accident as a high speed rollover with likely injuries and someone pinned in the car. It was rural Florida and closest fire department was over 10 miles away and it was a small volunteer department.

My view is while I agree you shouldn't attempt potentially damaging first aid that you are not trained for. I think having equipment you are not trained for may save a life. Apparently many trained medical personnel do not carry much, if any substantial first aid supplies.

jdavionic
04-19-2012, 18:23
Yep...I'm very fortunate in that my company pays for my training. CPR and First Aid training and certification for a certain number of employees that were interested. Since only a limited number were interested, the company pays for my training and certification renewal. Not sure why people don't take advantage of it at my company.

Anyway, good job to the OP! I hope I never have to use mine, but it's good to know I've gone through it so many times now.

FireForged
04-20-2012, 08:59
I enjoyed a wilderness first aid class a few years back. I just want to know why they keep changing CPR instructions?

jdavionic
04-20-2012, 12:00
I enjoyed a wilderness first aid class a few years back. I just want to know why they keep changing CPR instructions?

I'm not in the medical field, but I asked the same question during one of my training classes. The answer was basically 'we know more now, then we knew before.' They incorporate lessons learned, new knowledge, and refine the techniques accordingly.

lawman800
04-20-2012, 13:44
The changes sometimes are pretty arbitrary. Different ratios for breaths and compressions and maybe a change in the pacing. We do annual CPR/first aid training so I see the changes more often compared to the civilian 2 year certifications.

Sometimes it just seems like it's being done for the sake of doing something. Change for the sake of change, if you will. How else can you justify constant annual updates and the training that comes with learning the new stuff.

Haldor
04-20-2012, 21:21
I enjoyed a wilderness first aid class a few years back. I just want to know why they keep changing CPR instructions?

American Heart Association finally pulled their heads out of their butts.

They have known for years that rescue breathing in CPR is not right, but they tried different combinations of rescue breathing verses compressions in an attempt to find some combination that would let them hang onto rescue breathing. Perhaps they were getting kick-backs on all those mouth barriers.

There was a large scale study in Tucson where continuous compression only CPR was given a widespread trial. The outcomes clearly showed that continuous compression had more saves and higher quality saves (less brain damage) than traditional CPR.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/116/25/e566.full

Reasons why rescue breathing is no longer recommended during CPR:

It is unnecessary. A heart attack victim was breathing just fine (probably breathing pretty hard in fact) right up until the heart attack. His blood is already highly oxygenated when you start CPR. And the act of compressing the chest gets some air into the lungs anyways.

It is really hard to get the blood moving with chest compressions and once you get it going you are much better off trying to keep it going than to stop for rescue breathing.

People are more reluctant to do CPR on a stranger if doing so requires that they do rescue breathing.

Rescue breathing if not done correctly can result in the patient vomiting. A CPR patient who aspirates vomit has a very poor prognosis.

TalkToTheGlock
04-20-2012, 21:50
Your training suggestions are excellent.

The fact that one has to have a prescription to get an oxygen bottle kit has always baffled me. Oxygen the most basic substance you need to survive is regulated as a "drug". Beyond absurd.

People often talk about not buying and carrying/having medical equipment you are not trained to use. I respect your personal decision not to do so. I just want to share a personal experience about why I don't agree with that position.

We were driving on I10 through Florida when a 80 mph rollover accident occurred 2 cars in front of us. We immediately pulled over and my wife jump out and ran to the car. Of the 6-8 people that went to the vehicle, there was one nurse and one doctor. We were the only ones with a substantial first kit (more than a booboo kit). The doctor and nurse had nothing. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries of the two people in the car (scrapes and bruises). It took 20 minutes for an ambulance to come, even with 911 calls describing the accident as a high speed rollover with likely injuries and someone pinned in the car. It was rural Florida and closest fire department was over 10 miles away and it was a small volunteer department.

My view is while I agree you shouldn't attempt potentially damaging first aid that you are not trained for. I think having equipment you are not trained for may save a life. Apparently many trained medical personnel do not carry much, if any substantial first aid supplies.

The reasoning behind the Oxygen is that if someone has COPD or other respiratory aliment, giving too mich oxygen can damage the alveoli in the lungs and basically blow them up (in simple terms) causing your lungs to be damaged. If you know for sure that someone has COPD, never give more than 4 liters of O2, unless specifically ordered.


I would also throw in that Benadryl is a must have while in a survival kit. You never know when an allergy or anaphalaxis can occur if introduced to a new allergy.

Happypuppy
04-20-2012, 22:07
I am well trained practiced for years and licensed , but retired. I carry basic Meds and trauma care items. I have a special bag in the car or on my motorcycle always. Training can be expensive bit many volunteer groups from the Red Cross to Medical Reserve Corps provide free traing for the basics. The basic military field guides are pretty good references.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

AK_Stick
04-20-2012, 23:32
Best $200 investment is to take the Red Cross Emergency Response (First Responder) class. 48 hours of classroom instruction over 2 months on what to do in any kind of medical emergency. Emphasis is on keeping people alive until the EMTs get there and not getting yourself into trouble doing it.

Here is an example syllabus to what you get trained in.

http://home.windstream.net/jtrector/forms/First_Responder_Syllabus.pdf

If you want more indepth training then take the Wilderness First Responders course. It covers how to treat patients for extended periods of time (due to being in a remote location without access to medical care). This course covers more advanced procedures like reducing a dislocated joint, wound closure, when to call off resuscitation efforts etc. The Wilderness First Responders course is usually taught in one very intense week of 12 hour days.

I carry a medic kit in my car that covers everything I have been trained to do. The only thing I don't have is an O2 bottle or an AED (too pricey for me). You really have to avoid the temptation to be heroic about procedures you are not trained to do. I also don't carry any gear that I am not trained to use (no decompression needle or Cricothyrotomy kit). That way I won't be tempted to do something that is out of my scope.

While I agree about the Cric kit, a decompression needle is one of the things that you really do need, and if the situation calls for, you can't really "screw up".

The .mil has found that we could save something like 90% of the saveable battlefield casualties who were dying, by the front line use of tq's and teaching how to stop a tension pneumothorax.

Much like a tq, its also one of the most basic things you really NEED to know, because if a person needs one, its entirely likely they're going to die before EMT's reach them if you can't do it.

harleyfx69
04-21-2012, 22:55
Just goes to show you it doesn't pay to work out.... ;)

he did make it to 90..

Haldor
04-22-2012, 07:25
While I agree about the Cric kit, a decompression needle is one of the things that you really do need, and if the situation calls for, you can't really "screw up".

The .mil has found that we could save something like 90% of the saveable battlefield casualties who were dying, by the front line use of tq's and teaching how to stop a tension pneumothorax.

Much like a tq, its also one of the most basic things you really NEED to know, because if a person needs one, its entirely likely they're going to die before EMT's reach them if you can't do it.

How does one get training on how to use a decompression needle? Is this covered in EMT Basic or is this considered an advanced treatment? If I used a decompression needle without proper training then I would not be protected from a law suit by the Good Samaritan shield law.

EMTs operate under a physicians control and authority. If I used a decompression needle without being under the control and authority of a physician then I would be practicing medicine without a license which is illegal in the US.

Assuming one is able to get around the training and legal issues, decompression needles are controlled items for civilians (on-line vendors won't sell them without proper agency certs). Where does an average citizen purchase these? Mexico?

I agree with using a tq (and am trained on how to do so), but unless we are already in the PAW (post apocalyptic world) I don't see myself carrying or using a decompression needle. This is one of those "heroic" temptations I was referring to resisting. Much as I want to help, I am not willing to risk losing everything I own and a criminal conviction to do so.

AK_Stick
04-22-2012, 13:52
my training and most of my trauma gear has all come from the .mil side, so I couldn't tell you.


However, in the big scheme of things, being sued over using a needle to keep someone alive for the EMT's to show up is so low a concern to me, I severely doubt that I'll ever see it.


I just don't see the "heroic temptation" part. If you need a NCD, you need it BAD. as in, you're dying, and quickly/horribly. And its pretty tough to screw up/do harm with it, unless you puncture the wrong side.

gunman_23
04-23-2012, 18:38
Amen on this thread!

If you dont know the importance of medical/first aid training...you're cooked. Sooner or later.

Haldor
04-25-2012, 19:35
my training and most of my trauma gear has all come from the .mil side, so I couldn't tell you.


However, in the big scheme of things, being sued over using a needle to keep someone alive for the EMT's to show up is so low a concern to me, I severely doubt that I'll ever see it.


I just don't see the "heroic temptation" part. If you need a NCD, you need it BAD. as in, you're dying, and quickly/horribly. And its pretty tough to screw up/do harm with it, unless you puncture the wrong side.

The problem with "heroic measures" is what happens when they die despite your best efforts. As long as you stay within your scope of practice then you are covered by the good Samaritan shield laws and they have to prove negligence before they can sue you.

If you do something you are not trained and authorized to do and the person dies then all these legal protections are void. Even if the death is not your fault, their estate is going to sue you and is almost certain to win in court. The term reckless is likely to be brought up which means they will probably end up owning your house or any other assets you might happen to have.

A medic in the military is a totally different situation than civilian life. I am much better trained and equipped to deal with medical emergencies than the average person and what I can cover is good enough for me.

AK_Stick
04-25-2012, 23:32
If you do something you are not trained and authorized to do and the person dies then all these legal protections are void. Even if the death is not your fault, their estate is going to sue you and is almost certain to win in court. The term reckless is likely to be brought up which means they will probably end up owning your house or any other assets you might happen to have.


Depends entirely upon the situation.


In the case of a needle chest decompression, I would say it would be almost impossible for them to win. Because it really is that hard to screw up. And even if you did, it wouldn't be a contributing factor to a death by tension pneumothorax.