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Aceman
04-15-2012, 15:38
Is Socialist? I hear this a lot "We are becoming socialist" and "Obama is a Socialist" and "Socialism is ruining us."

And this got me wondering, since I hear it a lot;

1. What is a "socialist" system REALLY look like? What is the definition of this thing
2. How much of our government is currently operating this way? And since when?

Anyone??? Someone??? Can you clarify this for me in a serious way besides the "socialism" sucks variety?

I have no idea honestly, but this how you learn, by asking...or at least my "common" understanding from a pathetic social studies course in high school may have been sorely lacking.

cyrsequipment
04-15-2012, 16:29
It is not a simple as 55% of our government is socialist.

Socialism is where the government takes over more and more of the private sector and gives people less and less choice.

Aceman
04-15-2012, 17:09
It is not a simple as 55% of our government is socialist.

Socialism is where the government takes over more and more of the private sector and gives people less and less choice.

By definition then, isn't any growth of government to do anything that a private contractor could do socialist?

Or even a conservative estimate like "gov budget $/FTE per capita"

Aceman
04-15-2012, 17:38
It is not a simple as 55% of our government is socialist.

Socialism is where the government takes over more and more of the private sector and gives people less and less choice.

By definition then, isn't any growth of government to do anything that a private contractor could do socialist?

Or even a conservative estimate like "gov budget $/FTE per capita"

cyrsequipment
04-15-2012, 18:21
By definition then, isn't any growth of government to do anything that a private contractor could do socialist?

Or even a conservative estimate like "gov budget $/FTE per capita"

Yes. Yes it does, you catch on fast.
Government runs things rather poorly ( think the VA or post office) so it is generally a BAD idea to have government do anything it doesn't HAVE to do...

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Dexters
04-15-2012, 18:42
Is Socialist? I hear this a lot "We are becoming socialist" and "Obama is a Socialist" and "Socialism is ruining us."

And this got me wondering, since I hear it a lot;

1. What is a "socialist" system REALLY look like? What is the definition of this thing
2. How much of our government is currently operating this way? And since when?

Anyone??? Someone??? Can you clarify this for me in a serious way besides the "socialism" sucks variety?

I have no idea honestly, but this how you learn, by asking...or at least my "common" understanding from a pathetic social studies course in high school may have been sorely lacking.

Look at Greece, England for what what the USA will look like.

Purely socialist, communist, capitalist countries have not existed in the modern age. They are terms used to divide people, just as conservative, liberal or religious right are.

DoctaGlockta
04-15-2012, 18:57
Here is a quick way to determine if a country is Socialist or not.

What percentage of the population is employed by or is supported by the government which includes the local, state, and federal levels?

If this is larger than the private sector figure then guess what?

Your country might be socialist.

BTW I grew up in a 'Socialist' country. When I immigrated here I was shocked that this 'Capitalist' country looked more socialist than where I came from. The lousy thing was that there were none of the socialist 'goodies' like health care here to show for it if you were a working stiff (unless you were on welfare, worked for the govt' or were in the armed forces).

jtull7
04-15-2012, 18:59
Nobody is a socialist. Don't be absurd. And don't believe everything you read on GT or the internet.

cyrsequipment
04-15-2012, 19:24
Nobody is a socialist. Don't be absurd. And don't believe everything you read on GT or the internet.

???
Um, I hope that was sarcasm
Either way, the question was about the government, not an individual.

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UneasyRider
04-15-2012, 20:33
Today a country can be socialist just by having a controlling tax code, EPA regualations, OSHA regulations, labor laws, health insurance requirements, etc.

It's all about who controls the lives of the people. 100 years ago it was the states and today it is the federal government. When the states were in charge there was at least a choice to vote with your feet which is no longer much of an option.

RatDrall
04-16-2012, 04:35
99% of the Democrats and 90% of the Republicans are Socialists.

Good luck...

TangoFoxtrot
04-16-2012, 04:41
Is Socialist? I hear this a lot "We are becoming socialist" and "Obama is a Socialist" and "Socialism is ruining us."

And this got me wondering, since I hear it a lot;

1. What is a "socialist" system REALLY look like? What is the definition of this thing
2. How much of our government is currently operating this way? And since when?

Anyone??? Someone??? Can you clarify this for me in a serious way besides the "socialism" sucks variety?

I have no idea honestly, but this how you learn, by asking...or at least my "common" understanding from a pathetic social studies course in high school may have been sorely lacking.

Socialism is like when George W. Bush came up with the plan to bail out the banks and auto industry with taxpayer dollars. That was the actual beginning of socialism in this country......

Wait!!!! What does this have to do with S/P forum?

Dexters
04-16-2012, 07:28
Wait!!!! What does this have to do with S/P forum?



That's right.

S&P has become one of the more sane forums here.

Close or move this thread to another forum.

Bren
04-16-2012, 08:23
By definition then, isn't any growth of government to do anything that a private contractor could do socialist?


Yes. Think of it as a sliding scale. At one end is no government at all - no money, no law, just anarchy and, as far as the economic exchange part, you barter for what you want. Then comes a government that turns your gold into coins and enforces basic rules - that's a little socialism, in exchange for more order, safety and convenience.

Now that scale slides, with increasing government involvement in the market/economy, until you get to the far end, which would be prue communism. The governnment, calling itself a government of the people, owns everything and has complete control of the legal marketplace - the citizens work where and when they are told and, regardless of their work, they share equally in what the economy produces. Obviously, this requires a very strict government to force people to live in mutual slavery to their fellow citizens.

So, as the economy becomees more socialist, the government becomes stricter and freedom is lost. While the form government and the economy are not exactly the same thing, those 2 factors have to slide along the scale together.

There are, as far as I know, no purely communist governments on earth (N. Korea may be close) and no perfectly free markets on earth, although some tribes in jungles may be very close.

I'd call the USA about 30% socialist (just making up numbers), but 100 years ago it was probably only 5-10% socialist. Maybe less.

Bren
04-16-2012, 08:27
Socialism is like when George W. Bush came up with the plan to bail out the banks and auto industry with taxpayer dollars. That was the actual beginning of socialism in this country......

Wait!!!! What does this have to do with S/P forum?

Your answer doesn't make much more sense than jtull7's (but I think he was being sarcastic). The "start" of socialism in the country was the establishment of a government, law and currency. After that, you can decide how socialist (how much government control of the economy) makes it "a socialist country" if you want, but it's more like the sldiing scale I described above.

Every country on earth is "socialist" to some degree and most people are "socialists" in that they support that, to some degree. The question is how to keep it at a level where the benefits of socialism outweight the harm and loss of freedom.

B.Reid
04-16-2012, 08:42
By definition then, isn't any growth of government to do anything that a private contractor could do socialist?

Or even a conservative estimate like "gov budget $/FTE per capita"

Yes!!

Bilbo Bagins
04-16-2012, 09:07
Socialism is like when George W. Bush came up with the plan to bail out the banks and auto industry with taxpayer dollars. That was the actual beginning of socialism in this country......

Wait!!!! What does this have to do with S/P forum?

Just like Reagan did in the 80's with Chrysler, and Bush Sr. did with the S&L bailout.

As someone who family lived under Soviet rule, I can tell you now that Bailouts have nothing to do with socialism.

I think for S&P purposes a country like the US becoming socialist or communist is in the realm of possibility. Ironically people pump there fist and say, "yea those damn liberals and Obama, they are socialist.", but where did you hear that from? Are you being controlled? Hearded to either graze in the field or be milked in the barn, either way you are all fenced in.

Its not about Right or Left, Obama or Bush, Limbaugh or Bill Mahr, its about very rich and powerful people controling the masses.

Hey if they can control and make a profit off of me while I'm free to do what I want and I can live a long happy life, and have the opportunity to prosper, then I really don't care.

Its when it becomes difficult for the gods of the geo/poltical/economy world to do what they do with gentle nudges on the masses that you have to worry. When the goverments and the power brokers feel it need to restrict, ration and control the masses, then its time to worry.

For every Right Winger wants certain freedoms yet demand certain restrictions. The left wingers demand the polar opposite freedoms and restictions. We Americans are too stupid to realize that they are being pushed out of the logical gray zone and into a straight black or white zones. At the end of the day, they have divided and conquered, and the noose tightens on both the left side and the right side.

So to simplify it, yes every country in the world is trying to be more like China. Its the new fad, a pseudo Capitist Socialist Hybrid. America is trying a few things that would be considered socialist, however be wary of the Millionaire finger pointers who scream "Socialist" and that need you to THINK a certain way. They all work for the same people.

Bolster
04-16-2012, 09:22
...when George W. Bush...That was the actual beginning of socialism in this country......

Oh good grief. This must be said in jest? Let's hope people are not so ignorant of history as to think socialism is a recent phenomenon in the US.

Elements of socialism drifting around since time eternal (humans are social animals), but the Bolshevik revolution (1917) gave both socialism and communism a major boost worldwide, including here in the US. The first US 'red scare' started 1919.

Socialism's major beach-head in the United States came with FDR, elected 1932. The New Deal, Social Security, Russia as an ally in WWII and later as a tolerated "friend" who stole nuclear secrets wholesale. FDR was very chummy with the USSR and the murdering dictator he fondly called "Uncle Joe." The second 'red scare' started 1947. McCarthy was not the nut that our now socialist media portrays him to be...there really were communists all over Washington. Proof of that was the USSR's first successful nuclear test.

We were reasonably successful resisting communism & socialism as long as our nation could see in large letters what the end result was: the USSR. As soon as it drifted away (under Bush 1 & Clinton) the irresistible urge to legally steal from neighbors in the name of "security" came roaring back, and we essentially became the enemy we'd resisted for so long. Yes, both D and R administrations guilty, but they were responding to the demands of the population...the voters. The voters were lead by the "talking classes," the media/academic/government elites. Elites like socialism, because there's no faster way to control a population than with socialism. So elites will always be pushing socialism. Socialism is control.

Socialism is a great lifestyle if you are one of the controlling elite, and aren't subject to its dictates. It's like being at the top of a pyramid scheme. All those suckers support you. For the middle classes? It (eventually) sucks hard. For the lower classes? Also sucks, but satisfies the desire for revenge and equity, so it feels good.

One way to determine how socialist a country is, is to look at how many people pay no taxes at all. They are virtually guaranteed socialists since they're making money off of socialism. (You are aware that a large proportion of the US population gets PAID at tax time?) Last I looked that number in the USA was hovering just under 50% -- the tipping point. After that, there are more voters who can vote themselves money, than there are voters who can resist.

So today's (whatever nation we are) is roughly half-way between the old USA and the USSR. China is hardly our polar opposite...they are a socialist/capitalist mix as are we. They seem to be moving toward more capitalism (good for them) and we are going the opposite direction. We are not what we used to be, and are much the worse for it. Look no farther than our crushing debt. Yet people seem incapable of learning what western-style socialism does to a culture. See it in Russia, in Greece, in Portugal, in France, in South America...but naaaah, it'll never happen here.

Then comes Obama, the "second coming" of FDR...and, well, possibly "game over." It's exceedingly difficult to fight socialism, when it controls all the propaganda organs: the media, the entertainment industry, academia, & unions. It appears the socialist takeover of Wikipedia is nearly complete, and you could say the socialists mostly own the internet, too. (They have the time to do so, since someone else is doing the work that keeps them fed and online.)

Whip up enough resentment against a republican president that people will vote for anything democrat...even a woefully inexperienced ideologue...and you get B.O.

Love to chat more, but I have work to do...!

kirgi08
04-16-2012, 09:43
Folks,there is no clean "side" of any party.This nation has been on a downward spiral for decades.FDR just set inta motion.The .gov got greedy with the money they had.And conspired ta get more.Then the "entitlement" folk stopped by.'08. :sad:

B.Reid
04-16-2012, 09:53
Folks,there is no clean "side" of any party.This nation has been on a downward spiral for decades.FDR just set inta motion.The .gov got greedy with the money they had.And conspired ta get more.Then the "entitlement" folk stopped by.'08. :sad:

Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson were the true beginning here in the USA.

kirgi08
04-16-2012, 11:14
Maybe..'08.

Dexters
04-16-2012, 11:39
Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson were the true beginning here in the USA.

+1

It is a done deal where the USA is going.

Prepare and move on.

Bolster
04-16-2012, 11:41
Finding the absolute beginning of socialism in the US would depend entirely on definitions. You could make the case that the fight between the federalists (big gov't + elite) and the democratic-republicans (small gov't + common-man) was the beginning...Adams vs Jefferson. That's pretty darned early.

Humans are a mix of individual and social impulses by nature. For some reason (I think it's socialism's ability to concentrate power among the elite) the social aspect grows like a cancer in modern western governments.

I should add: socialism is also made wildly attractive by its willingness to spend the money of future generations by borrowing from them now. That's what FDR started. Pay for grandma's retirement today, and put the cost to future generations. One generation gets a free ride. It's a ponzi scheme for the rest of us. At the end, we're just hoping for a seat in the lifeboat.

Now BO is starting a new ponzi scheme with Obamacare. But the question is, are there enough suckers to build the pyramid? All successful schemes need loads of suckers who "hope" and "believe" in "change" (change defined as a reversion to old-school socialism).

The game's not over 'till the game's over.

B.Reid
04-16-2012, 14:20
+1

It is a done deal where the USA is going.

Prepare and move on.

Move on to where?

Dexters
04-16-2012, 16:54
Move on to where?

Dancing With the Stars

Donn57
04-16-2012, 18:21
Nobody is a socialist. Don't be absurd. And don't believe everything you read on GT or the internet.

I don't know. There is at least one avowed Socialist in the Senate - Bernie Sanders of Vermont. What does that say about the people of Vermont that they elected a Socialist to the U.S. Senate and prior to that elected him to the U.S. House.

Akita
04-16-2012, 18:47
That's right.

S&P has become one of the more sane forums here.

Close or move this thread to another forum.

Yes, please.

TangoFoxtrot
04-17-2012, 04:23
Yes. Think of it as a sliding scale. At one end is no government at all - no money, no law, just anarchy and, as far as the economic exchange part, you barter for what you want. Then comes a government that turns your gold into coins and enforces basic rules - that's a little socialism, in exchange for more order, safety and convenience.

Now that scale slides, with increasing government involvement in the market/economy, until you get to the far end, which would be prue communism. The governnment, calling itself a government of the people, owns everything and has complete control of the legal marketplace - the citizens work where and when they are told and, regardless of their work, they share equally in what the economy produces. Obviously, this requires a very strict government to force people to live in mutual slavery to their fellow citizens.

So, as the economy becomees more socialist, the government becomes stricter and freedom is lost. While the form government and the economy are not exactly the same thing, those 2 factors have to slide along the scale together.

There are, as far as I know, no purely communist governments on earth (N. Korea may be close) and no perfectly free markets on earth, although some tribes in jungles may be very close.

I'd call the USA about 30% socialist (just making up numbers), but 100 years ago it was probably only 5-10% socialist. Maybe less.

Oh good grief. This must be said in jest? Let's hope people are not so ignorant of history as to think socialism is a recent phenomenon in the US.

Elements of socialism drifting around since time eternal (humans are social animals), but the Bolshevik revolution (1917) gave both socialism and communism a major boost worldwide, including here in the US. The first US 'red scare' started 1919.

Socialism's major beach-head in the United States came with FDR, elected 1932. The New Deal, Social Security, Russia as an ally in WWII and later as a tolerated "friend" who stole nuclear secrets wholesale. FDR was very chummy with the USSR and the murdering dictator he fondly called "Uncle Joe." The second 'red scare' started 1947. McCarthy was not the nut that our now socialist media portrays him to be...there really were communists all over Washington. Proof of that was the USSR's first successful nuclear test.

We were reasonably successful resisting communism & socialism as long as our nation could see in large letters what the end result was: the USSR. As soon as it drifted away (under Bush 1 & Clinton) the irresistible urge to legally steal from neighbors in the name of "security" came roaring back, and we essentially became the enemy we'd resisted for so long. Yes, both D and R administrations guilty, but they were responding to the demands of the population...the voters. The voters were lead by the "talking classes," the media/academic/government elites. Elites like socialism, because there's no faster way to control a population than with socialism. So elites will always be pushing socialism. Socialism is control.

Socialism is a great lifestyle if you are one of the controlling elite, and aren't subject to its dictates. It's like being at the top of a pyramid scheme. All those suckers support you. For the middle classes? It (eventually) sucks hard. For the lower classes? Also sucks, but satisfies the desire for revenge and equity, so it feels good.

One way to determine how socialist a country is, is to look at how many people pay no taxes at all. They are virtually guaranteed socialists since they're making money off of socialism. (You are aware that a large proportion of the US population gets PAID at tax time?) Last I looked that number in the USA was hovering just under 50% -- the tipping point. After that, there are more voters who can vote themselves money, than there are voters who can resist.

So today's (whatever nation we are) is roughly half-way between the old USA and the USSR. China is hardly our polar opposite...they are a socialist/capitalist mix as are we. They seem to be moving toward more capitalism (good for them) and we are going the opposite direction. We are not what we used to be, and are much the worse for it. Look no farther than our crushing debt. Yet people seem incapable of learning what western-style socialism does to a culture. See it in Russia, in Greece, in Portugal, in France, in South America...but naaaah, it'll never happen here.

Then comes Obama, the "second coming" of FDR...and, well, possibly "game over." It's exceedingly difficult to fight socialism, when it controls all the propaganda organs: the media, the entertainment industry, academia, & unions. It appears the socialist takeover of Wikipedia is nearly complete, and you could say the socialists mostly own the internet, too. (They have the time to do so, since someone else is doing the work that keeps them fed and online.)

Whip up enough resentment against a republican president that people will vote for anything democrat...even a woefully inexperienced ideologue...and you get B.O.

Love to chat more, but I have work to do...!

That's right.

S&P has become one of the more sane forums here.

Close or move this thread to another forum.

Your answer doesn't make much more sense than jtull7's (but I think he was being sarcastic). The "start" of socialism in the country was the establishment of a government, law and currency. After that, you can decide how socialist (how much government control of the economy) makes it "a socialist country" if you want, but it's more like the sldiing scale I described above.

Every country on earth is "socialist" to some degree and most people are "socialists" in that they support that, to some degree. The question is how to keep it at a level where the benefits of socialism outweight the harm and loss of freedom.

WOW! I truely know what button to push. :crying:

This post really should be moved to the political forum.