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Vic Hays
04-15-2012, 17:09
TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH VOLUME 9, PAGE 28 and 29

"An Impressive Scene

In the visions of the night a very impressive scene passed before me. I saw an immense ball of fire fall among some beautiful mansions, causing their instant destruction. I heard someone say: “We knew that the judgments of God were coming upon the earth, but we did not know that they would come so soon.” Others, with agonized voices, said: “You knew! Why then did you not tell us? We did not know.” On every side I heard similar words of reproach spoken.
In great distress I awoke. I went to sleep again, and I seemed to be in a large gathering. One of authority was addressing the company, before whom was spread out a map of the world. He said that the map pictured God’s vineyard, which must be cultivated. As light from heaven shone upon anyone, that one was to reflect the light to others. Lights were to be kindled in many places, and from these lights still other lights were to be kindled.
The words were repeated: “Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savor, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden underfoot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 5:13-16.
I saw jets of light shining from cities and villages, and from the high places and the low places of the earth. God’s word was obeyed, and as a result there
were memorials for Him in every city and village. His truth was proclaimed throughout the world.
Then this map was removed and another put in its place. On it light was shining from a few places only. The rest of the world was in darkness, with only a glimmer of light here and there. Our Instructor said: “This darkness is the result of men’s following their own course. They have cherished hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil. They have made questioning and faultfinding and accusing the chief business of their lives. Their hearts are not right with God. They have hidden their light under a bushel.”
If every soldier of Christ had done his duty, if every watchman on the walls of Zion had given the trumpet a certain sound, the world might ere this have heard the message of warning. But the work is years behind. While men have slept, Satan has stolen a march upon us."

Geko45
04-16-2012, 11:58
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 5:16.

"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." - Matthew 6:1

Seems like Matthew can't even stick to his own story.

Blast
04-16-2012, 12:58
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." - Matthew 6:1

Seems like Matthew can't even stick to his own story.
Major difference between acts for example and acts for glory.
Motive is everything. Helping others from the heart is example.
Helping others to promote and glorify self is a different matter.

Geko45
04-16-2012, 13:01
Major difference between acts for example and acts for glory.
Motive is everything. Helping others from the heart is example.
Helping others to promote and glorify self is a different matter.

While I agree that there is an important difference in intent, Matthew is talking about actual actions here. Should good works be done publicly so that others may see or not?

Kingarthurhk
04-16-2012, 14:37
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." - Matthew 6:1

Seems like Matthew can't even stick to his own story.

Context is everything.

Luke 21:1-4, "<sup>1</sup> As Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. <sup id="en-NIV-25829" class="versenum">2</sup> He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. <sup id="en-NIV-25830" class="versenum">3</sup> “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. <sup id="en-NIV-25831" class="versenum">4</sup> All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Who was greater in the eyes of God? Those that gave with pomp and ceremony for all to see a portion of their wealth, or the widow that gave all she had?

No one else paid attention, but God did.

Luke 18:9-14, "<sup>9</sup> To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: <sup id="en-NIV-25699" class="versenum">10</sup> “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. <sup id="en-NIV-25700" class="versenum">11</sup> The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. <sup id="en-NIV-25701" class="versenum">12</sup> I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

<sup id="en-NIV-25702" class="versenum">13</sup> “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ <sup id="en-NIV-25703" class="versenum">14</sup> “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

God sees the heart. It cannot be hidden from Him.

Matthew 24:14, "<sup>14</sup> And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

Mark 16:15, "<sup>15</sup> He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. <sup id="en-NIV-24890" class="versenum">16</sup> Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

Matthew 5:13-14, "<sup>13</sup> “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
<sup id="en-NIV-23249" class="versenum">14</sup> “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. <sup id="en-NIV-23250" class="versenum">15</sup> Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. <sup id="en-NIV-23251" class="versenum">16</sup> In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. "

The context of the "Great Comission" given by God to those that believe.

The same God says in Ezekiel 3:18, "When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood."

Zechariah 3:1-2, " Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-22914a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Zechariah+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-22914a)]</sup> standing at his right side to accuse him. <sup id="en-NIV-22915" class="versenum">2</sup> The LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?”

So, by what authority do you accuse a man, who has only come to do what Jesus has comissioned him to do?

We are here doing our best to do the following:

1 Peter 3:15, "But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,"

We have debated with you as best we can to try and persuade you toward hope, peace, and salvation in Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:27-31, "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. <sup id="en-NIV-28392" class="versenum">28</sup> God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, <sup id="en-NIV-28393" class="versenum">29</sup> so that no one may boast before him. <sup id="en-NIV-28394" class="versenum">30</sup> It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. <sup id="en-NIV-28395" class="versenum">31</sup> Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28395d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28395d)]</sup>

So, there may not be many among us who hold PHD's in physics, or biology, or the like. We come to you with the simple truth of salvation through Jesus Christ.

In doing so, we try to do that as best we can in love, though, the written word on a board may not convey that in the best format.

However, it is another medium to try to bring the Gospel to the world, as we are commanded to do. So, here we are.

Vic Hays
04-16-2012, 14:43
"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven." - Matthew 6:1

Seems like Matthew can't even stick to his own story.

You seem to be able to identify hypocrisy especially in Christians. I think letting your light shine has to do with being a real Christian not grandstanding.

At any rate you will not be able to say that you have not been warned of impending judgments coming upon the earth.

Brasso
04-16-2012, 14:45
Excellent reply Kingarthurhk,

Now, about those works....

Kingarthurhk
04-16-2012, 14:55
Excellent reply Kingarthurhk,

Now, about those works....

As to works? They should come from our relationship with Jesus Christ. We should want to serve Him out of love. In oder to love someone, we need to devote time getting to know them.

Perhaps a rather poor analogy, but say you and I know each other as friends and perhaps coworkers. Do I do good deeds to you to earn something from you? Or, because you are my friend, I want to do good things for you?

I am by no means disregarding works, but rather putting things in the right order.

We cannot earn our way to heaven. We can't by our actions create a relationship with Jesus. He tells us to come as we are.

The relationship with Jesus is dynamic. We are either going forward or backward. When we go forward works are natural result of the relatioship, given to us by Jesus with the power to overcome, because we are powerless to overcome by our own might.

We are told are righteousness is as "filthy rags", or in a more literal context, rags that a woman would have her period on.

However, through the parable of the wedding feast, we are shown that Christ puts His robe of righteousness upon us so that when the accuser comes, Jesus stands in our stead rather than oursleves.

As James says faith without deeds is dead. He also shows that deeds alone are not sufficient without faith.

You know scripture as well as I do, so there is no need to track down all the scriptures for you.

But, that is the interplay of faith and works. We are told to seek first the kingdom of heaven, and all the other things will be added unto us.

Geko45
04-16-2012, 15:04
<sup id="en-NIV-25703" class="versenum">14</sup> “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Do you realize that you are only taught this to make you easier to control here on earth? To dupe you into spending your one and only life in service to an organized religion that feeds off its prey, err.. members like a parasite?

Kingarthurhk
04-16-2012, 15:27
Do you realize that you are only taught this to make you easier to control here on earth? To dupe you into spending your one and only life in service to an organized religion that feeds off its prey, err.. members like a parasite?

No. What I do is by choice. A church building isn't going to save me. A particular denomination is not going to save me. I am willing to give my one and only earthly life in service to Christ, which is a pittance compared to what He has given me. Moreover, I give in cheefully.

I am by no means Mother Terresa. But, who where would criticize the way she lived her one and only earthly life giving and carring for those that society rejected?

There is nothing parasitical going on. If anyone is a beggar it is me to my Savior, and not the other way around.

Moreover, I am given an assurance and a peace that passes all understanding.

How many people can say that they have that?

Further, I have hope in a future that is beyond my 75 or so years afforded to humanity in this current life.

My only disappointment is that I am not in the position to do more.

Geko45
04-16-2012, 15:41
I am willing to give my one and only earthly life in service to Christ, which is a pittance compared to what He has given me. Moreover, I give in cheefully.

But what he has "given" you can not be seen or measured in this life and if it is not true then you will never know it as you will simply cease to exist.

I am by no means Mother Terresa. But, who where would criticize the way she lived her one and only earthly life giving and carring for those that society rejected?

I would commend her and those like her as she went directly to those in need and helped them. I've never claimed religion is universally bad. Afterall, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But for each Mother Teresa religion produces, how many shysters and charlatans are cranked out too?

Further, I have hope in a future that is beyond my 75 or so years afforded to humanity in this current life.

But what if you've been lied to all this time?

My only disappointment is that I am not in the position to do more.

That is a noble ideal and I genuinely commend you for it. Even if I think you are misguided at times.

Brasso
04-16-2012, 16:10
You know scripture as well as I do, so there is no need to track down all the scriptures for you.

Of course.

"If you love Me, keep the commandments."

Works are as filthy rags, when we don't keep them for Him, but for man. When done for Him, they are our sanctification.

I was speaking about which works, however, rather than how we do them.

See my sig line. He does not change.

Vic Hays
04-16-2012, 17:15
Of course.

"If you love Me, keep the commandments."

Works are as filthy rags, when we don't keep them for Him, but for man. When done for Him, they are our sanctification.

I was speaking about which works, however, rather than how we do them.

See my sig line. He does not change.

If you are actually born again there is no need to stress works.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Kingarthurhk
04-16-2012, 17:16
But what he has "given" you can not be seen or measured in this life and if it is not true then you will never know it as you will simply cease to exist.

If you are right, then I will have at least lived a worthwhile life. If you are wrong, I have gained much more. Do you buy insurance? I am sure you probably do. Why do that, if you are not anticipating the potential of something happening? I have confidence that there is a life to come. Trust in Jesus is my asurance and insurance.


I would commend her and those like her as she went directly to those in need and helped them. I've never claimed religion is universally bad. Afterall, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But for each Mother Teresa religion produces, how many shysters and charlatans are cranked out too?

There are plenty of those on both accounts. But, we we warned in advance about the latter group.

Acts 20:27-31, "<sup>27</sup> For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. <sup id="en-NIV-27655" class="versenum">28</sup> Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27655a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+20&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27655a)]</sup> which he bought with his own blood.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27655b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+20&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27655b)]</sup> <sup id="en-NIV-27656" class="versenum">29</sup> I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. <sup id="en-NIV-27657" class="versenum">30</sup> Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. <sup id="en-NIV-27658" class="versenum">31</sup> So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears."



But what if you've been lied to all this time?

I haven't. I grow more daily in the truth. The more I learn the more I want to share.



That is a noble ideal and I genuinely commend you for it. Even if I think you are misguided at times.

I am here for the same reason Jesus came here, though, I am by no means a comparison or worthy.

John 3:16-21, " For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. <sup id="en-NIV-26138" class="versenum">17</sup> For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <sup id="en-NIV-26139" class="versenum">18</sup> Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. <sup id="en-NIV-26140" class="versenum">19</sup> This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. <sup id="en-NIV-26141" class="versenum">20</sup> Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. <sup id="en-NIV-26142" class="versenum">21</sup> But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

There it is, asurance, and insurance.

Brasso
04-16-2012, 17:20
If you are actually born again there is no need to stress works.


Unless of course you are teaching people to disregard some commandments, making yourself least in the kingdom. Just trying to help.

The reason you think I'm stressing them is because you are teaching against them.

Kingarthurhk
04-16-2012, 17:45
Unless of course you are teaching people to disregard some commandments, making yourself least in the kingdom. Just trying to help.

The reason you think I'm stressing them is because you are teaching against them.

He has never, ever taught that the 10 commandments given in Exodus 20, and actually spoken of in Genesis long before they were codified by the finger of God have been aborogated.

In fact, last month, I myself have presented a copy of my presentation at Sabbath School on this very matter. So, neither, Vic, nor I have ever spoken against the 10 Commandments.

Vic Hays
04-16-2012, 18:37
Unless of course you are teaching people to disregard some commandments, making yourself least in the kingdom. Just trying to help.

The reason you think I'm stressing them is because you are teaching against them.

I don't know why you are in such denial as to which commandments lead to life. Jesus could differentiate between ceremony and morality. Do you love ceremony so much? Do you like to wear your tsis tsis or whatever they are so much?

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We have gone over and over that the Bible says the Ten Commandments are the covenant.

rgregoryb
04-16-2012, 18:41
Isn't the OP a work by E G White?

Brasso
04-16-2012, 20:34
We have gone over and over that the Bible says the Ten Commandments are the covenant.

And you're still wrong.

The covenant Israel agree to was the entire Torah. It's the entire Torah that Messiah said would not pass away. It's the entire Torah that God says was forever.

Show me one single place where the Bible says the covenant is what you call the 10 commandments?

Vic Hays
04-17-2012, 08:31
And you're still wrong.

The covenant Israel agree to was the entire Torah. It's the entire Torah that Messiah said would not pass away. It's the entire Torah that God says was forever.

Show me one single place where the Bible says the covenant is what you call the 10 commandments?

I have provided Bible texts that call the Ten Commandments the Covenant. You have yet to supply the same for the book of the Law.

Should I go with your version and deny the Bible?

Vic Hays
04-17-2012, 08:37
Isn't the OP a work by E G White?

Yes. In every age God has provided prophets to lead His people. They never have been popular have they? It would not be very just of God to surprise people without first giving them a warning would it?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets.

Brasso
04-17-2012, 11:53
I have provided Bible texts that call the Ten Commandments the Covenant. You have yet to supply the same for the book of the Law.

That's not what I asked.

I asked where do I find a passage that says the 10 Commandments are - Have no other God before me 2 Remember the Sabbath 3 etc, etc. Where is this list? I know where a list of 10 commandments are that deal with the Tabernacle, but this other list I can't find.

Kingarthurhk
04-17-2012, 12:26
That's not what I asked.

I asked where do I find a passage that says the 10 Commandments are - Have no other God before me 2 Remember the Sabbath 3 etc, etc. Where is this list? I know where a list of 10 commandments are that deal with the Tabernacle, but this other list I can't find.

Exodus 20 is where God speaks them in person on mount Sinai and comes down with a trumpet and smoke and fire, and burns the mountain with his presence.

The same 10 that He inscribe with His own finger on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

Vic Hays
04-17-2012, 16:19
That's not what I asked.

I asked where do I find a passage that says the 10 Commandments are - Have no other God before me 2 Remember the Sabbath 3 etc, etc. Where is this list? I know where a list of 10 commandments are that deal with the Tabernacle, but this other list I can't find.

This is exactly what you are asking for as recorded in the Bible:

Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

The Bible calls these Ten Commandments the Covenant

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he ate no bread, and drank no water. And he wrote on the tables the words of the covenant, the ten words.

rgregoryb
04-17-2012, 18:06
Yes. In every age God has provided prophets to lead His people. They never have been popular have they? It would not be very just of God to surprise people without first giving them a warning would it?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he reveals his secret to his servants the prophets.

if a prophet is wrong, how can they be a prophet?

Brasso
04-17-2012, 18:27
Exodus 20 is where God speaks them in person on mount Sinai and comes down with a trumpet and smoke and fire, and burns the mountain with his presence.

The same 10 that He inscribe with His own finger on two tablets of stone.

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

Still doesn't answer the question. The only 10 things discussed on the mountain were the 10 parts of the Tabernacle. I know He gave Moses the Tablets of the Testimony. But where does it say what was written on them? The traditional version of the 10 commandments isn't specified anywhere. They are also Torah. So it's redundant. There were 10 things described in Exodus 31 immediately before God gave Moses the tablets and they all had to do with the Tabernacle.

Additionally, no where in the Bible does God or anyone else break the commandments down in to moral, civil, and ceremonial. That's purely a christian invention.

I told myself I was done with this stupidity. You want to believe God lies? Go ahead. I'm done.

Vic Hays
04-17-2012, 21:42
Still doesn't answer the question. The only 10 things discussed on the mountain were the 10 parts of the Tabernacle. I know He gave Moses the Tablets of the Testimony. But where does it say what was written on them? The traditional version of the 10 commandments isn't specified anywhere. They are also Torah. So it's redundant. There were 10 things described in Exodus 31 immediately before God gave Moses the tablets and they all had to do with the Tabernacle.

Additionally, no where in the Bible does God or anyone else break the commandments down in to moral, civil, and ceremonial. That's purely a christian invention.

I told myself I was done with this stupidity. You want to believe God lies? Go ahead. I'm done.

I guess it is just unfortunate that you can't figure out what was written on the tables of stone for sure. I am pretty confident that It was only the Ten Commandments because the Book of the law was put in a compartment on the outside of the Ark.

I don't know of any Jews that subscribe to the opinion that all of the Torah was written on the tables of stone either.

You are the only one that I know of with such a doctrine.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Vic Hays
04-19-2012, 09:29
THE GREAT CONTROVERSY 1888, PAGE 594

"Before his crucifixion, the Saviour explained to his disciples that he was to be put to death, and to rise again from the tomb; and angels were present to impress his words on minds and hearts. But the disciples were looking for temporal deliverance from the Roman yoke, and they could not tolerate the thought that He in whom all their hopes centered should suffer an ignominious death. The words which they needed to remember were banished from their minds; and when the time of trial came, it found them unprepared. The death of Jesus as fully destroyed their hopes as if he had not forewarned them. So in the prophecies the future is opened before us as plainly as it was opened to the disciples by the words of Christ. The events connected with the close of probation and the work of preparation for the time of trouble, are clearly presented. But multitudes have no more understanding of these important truths than if they had never been revealed. Satan watches to catch away every impression that would make them wise unto salvation, and the time of trouble will find them unready."

Brasso
04-19-2012, 12:52
Let's assume you're right. God put the 10 Commandments both inside the Ark and outside the Ark, but only wants us to do these 10 things.

So we do these 10 things. That's it? That's the covenant? And what if we don't do these 10 things perfectly. Let's assume we sin. Then what?

Do you not see that the covenant cannot be just these 10 things? There must be a way of reconciliation or the covenant fails.

You are so wrong.

Kingarthurhk
04-19-2012, 16:09
Let's assume you're right. God put the 10 Commandments both inside the Ark and outside the Ark, but only wants us to do these 10 things.

So we do these 10 things. That's it? That's the covenant? And what if we don't do these 10 things perfectly. Let's assume we sin. Then what?

Do you not see that the covenant cannot be just these 10 things? There must be a way of reconciliation or the covenant fails.

You are so wrong.

Has no one ever taught you of faith, grace, and the sacrfice of of Jesus Christ? That you must build a relationship with Him to being to have works by faith? When you love Him, you want to keep His commandments. And only by His power can you possibly have the power to overcome sin.

Jesus Christ is the reconciliation for us.

Vic Hays
04-19-2012, 16:39
Let's assume you're right. God put the 10 Commandments both inside the Ark and outside the Ark, but only wants us to do these 10 things.

So we do these 10 things. That's it? That's the covenant? And what if we don't do these 10 things perfectly. Let's assume we sin. Then what?

Do you not see that the covenant cannot be just these 10 things? There must be a way of reconciliation or the covenant fails.

You are so wrong.

The doing is what God asked for in the first covenant. The second or New Covenant is about being moral by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This is what Born again means.

Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live to God.
2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Jesus sacrifice was sufficient for our salvation. Our sins can and will be forgiven. Being a Christian is about growing which is what is called sanctification. First the blade then the ear and then the full corn. Trust that the Holy Spirit will do this work in you. Jesus put it this way:

Mark 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
4:27 And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
4:28 For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.
4:29 But when the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come.

Brasso
04-19-2012, 20:32
Has no one ever taught you of faith, grace, and the sacrfice of of Jesus Christ?

We're not talking about the New Covenant, which btw is the TORAH written on our hearts. Which apparently leaves you out by choice.

"To the Torah AND the Testimony..." Jeez how many times does this have to be repeated before it jogs Ellen White out of your head?

But this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about the Mosaic Covenant. If the 10 Commandments were the covenant, then what about sin?

Vic Hays
04-19-2012, 21:13
We're not talking about the New Covenant, which btw is the TORAH written on our hearts. Which apparently leaves you out by choice.

"To the Torah AND the Testimony..." Jeez how many times does this have to be repeated before it jogs Ellen White out of your head?

But this is not what we're talking about. We're talking about the Mosaic Covenant. If the 10 Commandments were the covenant, then what about sin?

Breaking any of the Ten Commandments is sin.

James says it is the standard to be used in the judgment. It is called the Law of Liberty.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

The Law of Liberty is a mirror we can see the dirt on us.

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like to a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
1:24 For he beholds himself, and goes his way, and straightway forgets what manner of man he was.
1:25 But whoever looks into the perfect law of liberty, and continues therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Brasso
04-20-2012, 12:59
It amazes me that you just go back and forth between the Law and the "10 Commandments" like that, as if they are the same thing.

The Law of Liberty is not a mirror. The entire Torah is the Law of Liberty because when we trust in God we have no worries. We walk free of condemnation.

And you're still dodging the question and the time period.

James says it is the standard to be used in the judgment. It is called the Law of Liberty.


That's a nice try, but James does not say the "10 Commandments" are the standard of righteousness. He calls the Torah the standard. The Law of Liberty is the Torah.

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 13:10
It amazes me that you just go back and forth between the Law and the "10 Commandments" like that, as if they are the same thing.

The Law of Liberty is not a mirror. The entire Torah is the Law of Liberty because when we trust in God we have not worries.

If the entire Torah is the Law of Liberty then why didn't James use some examples from somewhere else besides the Ten Commandments?

Brasso, your faith must surely consist of more than your own personal opinion? Where are your scriptures to back up what you are saying?

Brasso
04-20-2012, 14:25
Brasso, your faith must surely consist of more than your own personal opinion? Where are your scriptures to back up what you are saying?

What's this?

And he did say Law. Not commandments. The only Law he or anyone else knew about was The Law.

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

If the entire Torah is the Law of Liberty then why didn't James use some examples from somewhere else besides the Ten Commandments?

He used some pretty major examples (what they would have called the weightier matters) and was by no means all inclusive. Besides, what you call the "10 Commandments" are like the chapter headings of the Torah.

Brasso
04-20-2012, 14:34
When Yeshua went around telling people to repent, just what do you think He meant to repent to? Just the "10 Commandments"?

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah: the right-ruling and the compassion and the belief. These need to have been done, without neglecting the others.

It's the same Law that Messiah said not one jot or tittle would pass away from and that anyone teaching against even the smallest commandment would be least in the Kingdom.

You are teaching against every commandment but 10.

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 16:32
When Yeshua went around telling people to repent, just what do you think He meant to repent to? Just the "10 Commandments"?

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah: the right-ruling and the compassion and the belief. These need to have been done, without neglecting the others.

It's the same Law that Messiah said not one jot or tittle would pass away from and that anyone teaching against even the smallest commandment would be least in the Kingdom.

You are teaching against every commandment but 10.

The Jews that Jesus was talking to had taken a vow to keep the whole law. The Gentiles were told not to do that. However, the weightier matters that Jesus was talking about are the spirit of the Law that Paul spoke of.

Acts 21:24 Them take, and purify yourself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning you, are nothing; but that you yourself also walk orderly, and keep the law.
21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.