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Jonesee
04-16-2012, 19:15
I ride a motorcycle... a lot. Will hit a bunch of rallies every year. Daytona, Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Sturgis, and rallies most of you have never heard of. I have Iron Butt Association # 48383. (google it)

I live in Florida and I am a gun owner. Here is my question that I have posted on motorcycle forums.

For bike week, as an example, there are always questions about concealed carry in Florida, and for the most part the answers are spot on.

Zimmerman's situation has brought to light a point I've made on those forums.

If you are in a bar drinking, and right, wrong , or otherwise you get into a bar fight. Maybe your fault, maybe not. And you proceed to get a good ol fashioned *** kicking. When, if ever do you have the right to draw your gun and pull the trigger? When he hits you and you get your nose broken? When he knocks you down and starts kicking you in the ribs? When he lets you up just to hit you again?

Anyone who has been in a bar fight or two knows what I am talking about.

There are a lot of Junior Billy Bad *** posers showing up at bike rallies and sometimes ending up in bars they probably shouldn't be in. (not so many of those bars in Daytona but elsewhere there are)

The question is:

Given what is happening with Zimmerman, when is it appropriate to draw your weapon during a gold ol fashioned bar fight and *** kicking?

What I consider a severe butt kicking, others might consider life threatening (or at least they are getting scared to death)

aircarver
04-16-2012, 19:22
I think you need some other form of recreation .... :alex:

.

opto_isolator
04-16-2012, 19:29
Well, first you'd be breaking the law, regardless. You aren't allowed to carry in a bar in FL.

Jonesee
04-16-2012, 19:32
Great point. Outside the bar on the sidewalk.

Norske
04-16-2012, 19:39
Are you carrying a gun to defend yourself "from the threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent" (essentially the definition of "justifiable homicide" that justifies our CCWs).

Or are you carrying a gun to be a "bad ***"?

In my estimation, if you are carrying a gun to be a "bad ***", and like to get into drunken bar fights just for fun, and think you could possibly justify using lethal force to get outr of a stupid, drunken altercaton you should never have gotten into in the first place, you are too dam immature to be carrying a gun at all.

And by "immature" I don't care if you are 18 or 80.

If you are carrying a gun for the wrong reasons you should not be carrying a gun at all.

Carry a gun..

Drunken bar brawls.

Choose one or the other.

No one is entitled to both.

Jonesee
04-16-2012, 19:39
I think you need some other form of recreation .... :alex:

.


I have a high stress job. Riding the bike is one of the few ways I take my mind off business.

Jonesee
04-16-2012, 19:44
Are you carrying a gun to defend yourself "from the threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent" (essentially the definition of "justifiable homicide" that justifies our CCWs).

Or are you carrying a gun to be a "bad ***"?

In my estimation, if you are carrying a gun to be a "bad ***", and like to get into drunken bar fights just for fun, and think you could possibly justify using lethal force to get outr of a stupid, drunken altercaton you should never have gotten into in the first place, you are too dam immature to be carrying a gun at all.

And by "immature" I don't care if you are 18 or 80.

If you are carrying a gun for the wrong reasons you should not be carrying a gun at all.

Carry a gun..

Drunken bar brawls.

Choose one or the other.

No one is entitled to both.

I don't carry on a bike. But there are plenty that do. My point is even if it is unintentional, you are sober and/or it does not go your way, when does a fight reach the point you can draw a weapon?

wrenrj1
04-16-2012, 19:48
I ride as well, but my position is that I don't put myself in the situation. No alcohol when I drive or ride. That also means I don't go to places that it would be an issue that I'm concerned.

Gunnut 45/454
04-16-2012, 19:48
Jonesee
Your problem is you admitted that getting into druken bar fights while carrying a firearm! Having a "High stress job " is no excuse. Time to grow up! As been stated above make a choice - be a responsible gun owner/carrier or be a drunken brawler. And even being on the sidewalk out side a bar waiting for a fight to get into doesn't cut it. You put yourself into a situation where you knew it could happen so no you couldn't claim selfdefense.:faint:

Reading your post#7

You have no SA do you. Hell when I walked into a bar when I used to go to them - I could tell you within 5 minutes if there was going to be trouble and who was going to start it!

Jonesee
04-16-2012, 19:51
Jonesee
Your problem is you admitted that getting into druken bar fights while carrying a firearm! Having a "High stress job " is no excuse. Time to grow up! As been stated above make a choice - be a responsible gun owner/carrier or be a drunken brawler. And even being on the sidewalk out side a bar waiting for a fight to get into doesn't cut it. You put yourself into a situation where you knew it could happen so no you couldn't claim selfdefense.:faint:


No I didn't!! Re read the post. I laid out a situation that is not uncommon. Maybe it is a domestic disturbance, a fight over a wayward woman, you insert the reason.

I admit to getting into fights when I was younger and healed faster. I don't do that anymore. I'm old now. Probably old enough to be the father of most members here on the forum. I break instead of bounce now...

I personally don't carry except to throw a gun in the car when traveling with the family.

My question is, as driven home by the Zimmerman situation. At what point in a fight, do the forum members believe it reaches a point to allow a stand your ground situation?

cowboywannabe
04-16-2012, 20:27
Rule 1. Bike week (panama city) is for old hags showing their floppy boobs that look like Q balls in a tube sock, and drunks cheering them on.

Rule 2. Dont go to bars were those same people are.

deathpriest
04-16-2012, 20:49
Pepper spray!
My opinion... if it is a fight, both parties are participating in the violence exchange. You can not respond with a gun when the fight is not going your way.
If you are being assaulted, meaning you tried to avoid the confrontation, that would be a different story.

jay-bird
04-16-2012, 20:59
Alcohol removes your right to carry. Fighting removes your right to self defense.

The Fist Of Goodness
04-16-2012, 21:07
Alcohol will impair your ability to make a reasonable judgement about the threat against you, and your impairment will be the central theme in your subsequent interrogation and (probably) criminal and civil trials.

G29Reload
04-16-2012, 23:03
Well, first you'd be breaking the law, regardless. You aren't allowed to carry in a bar in FL.


Yes you are.

You just cannot be seated at the area primarily licensed to sell alcohol. (The actual bar itself).

You can drink your beer at a table or highboy. The dining room. Out on the patio. In the establishment.

G29Reload
04-16-2012, 23:05
Alcohol removes your right to carry.

No it doesn't. Not in every instance. Sometimes. Varies by state and condition.

ScubaSven
04-16-2012, 23:31
I ride a motorcycle... a lot. Will hit a bunch of rallies every year. Daytona, Bike Week, Biketoberfest, Sturgis, and rallies most of you have never heard of. I have Iron Butt Association # 48383. (google it)

I live in Florida and I am a gun owner. Here is my question that I have posted on motorcycle forums.

For bike week, as an example, there are always questions about concealed carry in Florida, and for the most part the answers are spot on.

Zimmerman's situation has brought to light a point I've made on those forums.

If you are in a bar drinking, and right, wrong , or otherwise you get into a bar fight. Maybe your fault, maybe not. And you proceed to get a good ol fashioned *** kicking. When, if ever do you have the right to draw your gun and pull the trigger? When he hits you and you get your nose broken? When he knocks you down and starts kicking you in the ribs? When he lets you up just to hit you again?

Anyone who has been in a bar fight or two knows what I am talking about.

There are a lot of Junior Billy Bad *** posers showing up at bike rallies and sometimes ending up in bars they probably shouldn't be in. (not so many of those bars in Daytona but elsewhere there are)

The question is:

Given what is happening with Zimmerman, when is it appropriate to draw your weapon during a gold ol fashioned bar fight and *** kicking?

What I consider a severe butt kicking, others might consider life threatening (or at least they are getting scared to death)

Your post perfectly illustrates the difficulty in drafting and judging these laws. Not sure if you did that on purpose, but drawing the line as to when an aggressor became a deadly threat, thereby justifying a killing, is impossible.

There is no way to give a bright-line rule (or the guidance you seek) in these situations. It must be on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, the Zimmerman case also shows how difficult it is to know what really happened in the heat of battle.

Guss
04-17-2012, 00:20
A fight by mutual consent is going to be a petty offense in most states and is not going to look good if you even accidentally kill the other person. If two people enter into an illegal activity and one is harmed as a result, you're sure not going to get a free pass on any self-defense claim, and you're going to have a really tough time convincing a jury.

Guss
04-17-2012, 00:28
By the way... Now that you have expressed these thoughts on a public forum, if you are ever in such an incident in the future, it's going to look like you plotted it.

Hyksos
04-17-2012, 04:37
In Florida, it is illegal to carry a firearm and drink at the same time.

BUT, if you were to be carrying while drinking, and you use the firearm, and the shoot is deemed lawful self defense, then there is an exception to being drunk.

So, basically, you can't carry when you're drinking, but if you are carrying drunk, and use the gun lawfully, you don't get charged.

John Rambo
04-17-2012, 08:02
Well, first you'd be breaking the law, regardless. You aren't allowed to carry in a bar in FL.

Not quite. Close, but not quite.

You can't carry in any part of the bar which is primarily devoted to serving alcohol. For example, if the bar has a pool hall area, you can carry there. Technically, you could carry in the crapper. You could carry in a booth or at a table provided they serve food, such as in the case of a sports bar. You could carry on a dancefloor in some situations.

Its a really touchy bit of red tape.

John Rambo
04-17-2012, 08:03
In Florida, it is illegal to carry a firearm and drink at the same time.

BUT, if you were to be carrying while drinking, and you use the firearm, and the shoot is deemed lawful self defense, then there is an exception to being drunk.

So, basically, you can't carry when you're drinking, but if you are carrying drunk, and use the gun lawfully, you don't get charged.

Also close but incorrect. You can carry the weapon. You can't handle it. So technically taking it off and putting it on, if drunk, are illegal. But carrying it on you is not.

There are levels of drunkeness, .1 is the magic number, and yes there is a big ol' exemption for if you use it in lawful self defense even while drunk.

HoldHard
04-17-2012, 11:27
These happen to be my rules. You can do whatever you want and deal with the consequences.

I ride.
I carry when I ride.
When I ride I don't drink.
When I carry I don't drink.

It'll be up to the prosecutor, judge, jury and how much you spend for your lawyer to determine the outcome.

There are levels of drunkeness, .1 is the magic number.

In Michigan, the "magic" number for BAC when carrying is anything over .02 Link (http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10961--,00.html)

Get caught and it will cost you your weapon, $100 and your carry license.

HH

Hyksos
04-17-2012, 14:46
Also close but incorrect. You can carry the weapon. You can't handle it. So technically taking it off and putting it on, if drunk, are illegal. But carrying it on you is not.

There are levels of drunkeness, .1 is the magic number, and yes there is a big ol' exemption for if you use it in lawful self defense even while drunk.

Well done sir. I hadn't looked up the statute in a while.

790.151 Using firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages, chemical substances, or controlled substances; penalties.—
(1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to “use a firearm” means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge.
(2) For the purposes of this section, “readily accessible for immediate discharge” means loaded and in a person’s hand.
(3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state.
(4) Any person who violates subsection (3) commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
(5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property.

It would essentially seem here that carrying while drinking is lawful. But, you can't carry into the portion of an establishment designated for the sole purpose of the consumption of alcohol. So, if I'm reading this right (not sure), it says to me that you can carry and drink, but, not in a place that doesnt serve food. EDIT: Excuse me, "primarily devoted"

It is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in . . . (12) Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

If you're at a Chili's drinking at the bar, it's ok because they serve food there also?

If you're drinking at a club, which has no food, then you're committing a crime by virtue of even being there, rather than drinking.

Thoughts?

EDIT:

It's also only a misdemeanor. Ha!

John Rambo
04-17-2012, 15:05
Well done sir. I hadn't looked up the statute in a while.



It would essentially seem here that carrying while drinking is lawful. But, you can't carry into the portion of an establishment designated for the sole purpose of the consumption of alcohol. So, if I'm reading this right (not sure), it says to me that you can carry and drink, but, not in a place that doesnt serve food. EDIT: Excuse me, "primarily devoted"



If you're at a Chili's drinking at the bar, it's ok because they serve food there also - it's not for the SOLE purpose of consumption.

If you're drinking at a club, which has no food, then you're committing a crime by virtue of even being there, rather than drinking.

Thoughts?

EDIT:

It's also only a misdemeanor. Ha!


I personally take it to mean the 'portions' of the establishment. For example, I can't sit at the bar at Chilis because they're primarily devoted to serving alcohol at the bar, so I get a table or booth. But theres also a bar up the road from me with an entire side of it devoted to pool tables and semi-cordoned off from the bar, I carry into there as its primary purpose is pool, not booze.

Don't really know who's right on that one. For my part, I chance it. If I had to advise anybody else, I'd probably say, "Play it safe."

4Rules
04-18-2012, 08:26
I have a high stress job. Riding the bike is one of the few ways I take my mind off business.
When he said "I think you need some other form of recreation" he was referring to drinking alcohol in public bars, not riding a motorcycle.

Gundude
04-18-2012, 08:59
No it doesn't. Not in every instance. Sometimes. Varies by state and condition.
Here in Nevada, you can be too drunk to legally drive, and still be legal to CCW. The streets flow day and night with the blood of drunken bar brawlers shooting each other. :whistling:. And I literally mean all day and night, because many bars are open 24/7.

Jonesee
04-18-2012, 18:45
When he said "I think you need some other form of recreation" he was referring to drinking alcohol in public bars, not riding a motorcycle.


Oh... I grew up decades ago. I honestly can't remember the last hangover I had.

A scotch before or a wine with dinner is all I drink anymore. My greatest vice for years has been cigars.

GLOCK17DB9
04-18-2012, 18:53
Just my opinion but alcohol and guns are not a good idea!:dunno:

wrenrj1
04-18-2012, 19:15
Just don't drink. Problem solved.