A believer ask a believer........ [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : A believer ask a believer........


Snapper2
04-17-2012, 20:45
According to the Bible,where does it say you must try to prove that God exists to another?I realize you are to prove all things(to yourself) according to the faith that is given. It seems that we accept by faith that which is supernatural then turn around and try to prove it by something that is natural. Isn't this contrary to faith? Or are we to prove everything to everyone? I guess what I'm getting at is if you prove by the natural(to someone) that there is the supernatural, is that still faith in action?

IndianaMatt
04-18-2012, 14:18
I think in the 2000+ years of Christianity, no one has "proven" anything "supernatural" via any empricial, reproducible scientific means. All that leaves for you is running on faith.

Snapper2
04-18-2012, 16:09
I think in the 2000+ years of Christianity, no one has "proven" anything "supernatural" via any empricial, reproducible scientific means. All that leaves for you is running on faith.

Ok so where would hope(if it does) figure into the equation?Are we only robots fed by facts that can only be seen in what we see (scientific tests)?No hope in a resurrection,etc. For instance if someone wanted to run a scientific test according to what the Bible says about healing, how many repetitions would it take to prove it true or false? No hope,no faith,just mechanical like repetitions. Nothing proven therefore nothing is hoped for. The proof that has served so well now becomes the master instead of a servant.Faith is the answer for what is hoped for.

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 16:13
Acts 16-32, "<sup>16</sup> While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. <sup id="en-NIV-27541" class="versenum">17</sup> So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. <sup id="en-NIV-27542" class="versenum">18</sup> A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. <sup id="en-NIV-27543" class="versenum">19</sup> Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? <sup id="en-NIV-27544" class="versenum">20</sup> You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” <sup id="en-NIV-27545" class="versenum">21</sup> (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)

<sup id="en-NIV-27546" class="versenum">22</sup> Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. <sup id="en-NIV-27547" class="versenum">23</sup> For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
<sup id="en-NIV-27548" class="versenum">24</sup> “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. <sup id="en-NIV-27549" class="versenum">25</sup> And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. <sup id="en-NIV-27550" class="versenum">26</sup> From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. <sup id="en-NIV-27551" class="versenum">27</sup> God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. <sup id="en-NIV-27552" class="versenum">28</sup> ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27552b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27552b)]</sup> As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27552c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27552c)]</sup>
<sup id="en-NIV-27553" class="versenum">29</sup> “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. <sup id="en-NIV-27554" class="versenum">30</sup> In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. <sup id="en-NIV-27555" class="versenum">31</sup> For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.” <sup id="en-NIV-27556" class="versenum">32</sup> When they heard about the resurrection of the dead, some of them sneered, but others said, “We want to hear you again on this subject.” <sup id="en-NIV-27557" class="versenum">33</sup> At that, Paul left the Council. <sup id="en-NIV-27558" class="versenum">34</sup> Some of the people became followers of Paul and believed. Among them was Dionysius, a member of the Areopagus, also a woman named Damaris, and a number of others."

There is Paul out there attempting to convince other people by discussing Jesus with people who don't believe in Jesus. We are told that some of the sneered at him.

So, there is Paul among the non-believing attempting to pursuade people to the truth.

As you can see he was treated by mocking or anger for his efforts by some.

2 Corinthians 11:23-28, "<sup>23</sup> Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more. I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. <sup id="en-NIV-29014" class="versenum">24</sup> Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. <sup id="en-NIV-29015" class="versenum">25</sup> Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, <sup id="en-NIV-29016" class="versenum">26</sup> I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. <sup id="en-NIV-29017" class="versenum">27</sup> I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. <sup id="en-NIV-29018" class="versenum">28</sup> Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches."

So, Paul, struggled as a disciple of Jesus. He went forward and tried to convince those that did not believe to believe in Jesus.

So, yes, there is an example of this, and there is also a precedent for this sort of thing.

So, as we sojurn on trying to reach the lost, consider yourself in good company.

The worst they can do is mock you. That is nothing compared to the last example.

Gunhaver
04-18-2012, 16:17
Believe what you want to believe. I don't care if you think your're Napoleon. The requirement for proof comes with the assumption that others should live the way your beliefs dictate or the assumption that your beliefs supersede scientific evidence.

Snapper2
04-18-2012, 16:32
Believe what you want to believe. I don't care if you think your're Napoleon. The requirement for proof comes with the assumption that others should live the way your beliefs dictate or the assumption that your beliefs supersede scientific evidence.
I think it has more to do about being right than showing proof. You've just exalted scientific evidence over the beliefs of others so it goes both ways. Youre right though,no one should be forced into anything.Proof or no proof.

Gunhaver
04-18-2012, 17:34
I think it has more to do about being right than showing proof. You've just exalted scientific evidence over the beliefs of others so it goes both ways. Youre right though,no one should be forced into anything.Proof or no proof.

Of course some should be forced with proof. If I present proof that toxic runoff from an industrial plant is poisoning my livestock then that plant can and should be forced to do something about it. One can think of numerous examples. When it comes to the religion vs. science debate the belief that they're on equal footing is ridiculous. That's why I exalt scientific evidence over religious belief. It's like comparing textbooks with fiction. One serves a much greater purpose and it's absurd to claim that both have equal value to society. One makes life actually better for people and one makes people feel better. When one prefers to sit around and read fiction and claims it's so much better than textbooks while enjoying all the modern benefits provided by the people who read the text books we have an absurd situation.

Considering that 'science' can be defined as every discovery made by observation in human history, how much has religion done to improve quality of life compared to science? How much does science really "go after" religion as opposed to vice versa?

muscogee
04-18-2012, 17:50
Matthew 4:7

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, You shall not test the Lord your God.

The Bible discourages you from trying to prove God exists because the authors knew you couldn't.

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 18:02
The Bible discourages you from trying to prove God exists because the authors knew you couldn't.

Context is everything.

Exodus 17:1-7, " The whole Israelite community set out from the Desert of Sin, traveling from place to place as the LORD commanded. They camped at Rephidim, but there was no water for the people to drink. <sup id="en-NIV-1986" class="versenum">2</sup> So they quarreled with Moses and said, “Give us water to drink.”

Moses replied, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you put the LORD to the test?”
<sup id="en-NIV-1987" class="versenum">3</sup> But the people were thirsty for water there, and they grumbled against Moses. They said, “Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children and livestock die of thirst?”
<sup id="en-NIV-1988" class="versenum">4</sup> Then Moses cried out to the LORD, “What am I to do with these people? They are almost ready to stone me.” <sup id="en-NIV-1989" class="versenum">5</sup> The LORD answered Moses, “Go out in front of the people. Take with you some of the elders of Israel and take in your hand the staff with which you struck the Nile, and go. <sup id="en-NIV-1990" class="versenum">6</sup> I will stand there before you by the rock at Horeb. Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink.” So Moses did this in the sight of the elders of Israel. <sup id="en-NIV-1991" class="versenum">7</sup> And he called the place Massah<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-1991a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1991a)]</sup> and Meribah<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-1991b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1991b)]</sup> because the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD saying, “Is the LORD among us or not?”

Deuteronomy 6:16-18, "<sup>16</sup> Do not put the LORD your God to the test as you did at Massah. <sup id="en-NIV-5104" class="versenum">17</sup> Be sure to keep the commands of the LORD your God and the stipulations and decrees he has given you. <sup id="en-NIV-5105" class="versenum">18</sup> Do what is right and good in the LORD’s sight, so that it may go well with you and you may go in and take over the good land the LORD promised on oath to your ancestors,"

So, when God had clearly delivered them from Egypt, when he had them cross the sea on dry ground, and drowned the Egyptian chariots, and went before them as a pillar of cloud durrng the day, and pillar of fire at night they had the audacity to say, "Is the Lord among us or not?"

They tested God's patience by grumbling against Him, and by ignoring what He had done for them, and not trusting in Him.

So, you are right to say, do not test God's patience. He is still long suffering and patient, but He is pointing out the sin of grumbling against God in the face of all He has given you.

Something to think about.

Snapper2
04-18-2012, 18:12
Considering that 'science' can be defined as every discovery made by observation in human history, how much has religion done to improve quality of life compared to science? How much does science really "go after" religion as opposed to vice versa?
The OP was not to degrade science or compare it in a bad way to anything. It was a question to ask ...if you believe in the supernatural why try to use the natural to prove it ? Science is a tool. Religion is also a tool. Each can be used or misused.Why even pit one against the other. Thats about all it adds up to. Arguing.IMO Jesus used the natural to compare it to the things of God but not to prove it.

muscogee
04-18-2012, 18:34
Context is everything.

the Israelites quarreled and because they tested the LORD saying, “Is the LORD among us or not?”



You're right. This is what you can't test.

IhRedrider
04-18-2012, 18:36
"A believer asks a believer a question". A sure way to attract the atheists. It's almost like they are believers deep down, they just don't want to follow and obey.

Were's norske, geko and AG?

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 18:42
You're right. This is what you can't test.

Especially, after He revealed Himself very obviously and specifically to them. That is point. To ignore everything that God had done for them, and then say, "Where is God?"

Do you have a roof over your head? Do you have food on your table? Do you have money in your bank account? Do you have clothes to wear? Were you given life and a good mind?

Praise God, they are good gifts from Him.

Not everyone in this world can say as much as that.

ponders
04-18-2012, 18:48
Were's norske, geko and AG?[/QUOTE]



beat me to it:whistling::wavey:

muscogee
04-18-2012, 18:57
Especially, after He revealed Himself very obviously and specifically to them. That is point. To ignore everything that God had done for them, and then say, "Where is God?"


God did not reveal himself to them. He allegedly revealed himself to Moses. How do you know Moses wasn't hallucinating?

muscogee
04-18-2012, 18:58
"A believer asks a believer a question". A sure way to attract the atheists. It's almost like they are believers deep down, they just don't want to follow and obey.

Were's norske, geko and AG?

Well, many of us know the Bible better than many of the believers.

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 19:17
God did not reveal himself to them. He allegedly revealed himself to Moses. How do you know Moses wasn't hallucinating?

It's been a long time since you have read Exodus I suspect.

Exodus 20:20-22, "<sup>20</sup> After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. <sup id="en-NIV-1889" class="versenum">21</sup> By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. <sup id="en-NIV-1890" class="versenum">22</sup> Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people."

Kind of hard to miss a thing like that.

Norske
04-18-2012, 19:30
"A believer asks a believer a question". A sure way to attract the atheists. It's almost like they are believers deep down, they just don't want to follow and obey.

Were's norske, geko and AG?

Well, since it was couched as "believer asks a believer", and I am not a believer, I did not think it was addressed to me.

So I did not see fit to provide any input.

ArtificialGrape
04-18-2012, 19:44
"A believer asks a believer a question". A sure way to attract the atheists. It's almost like they are believers deep down, they just don't want to follow and obey.

Were's norske, geko and AG?

I'm capable of sitting out until somebody either says something so ridiculous that it demands a response, or until I'm invited in -- like in The Lost Boys :cool:

-ArtificialGrape

muscogee
04-18-2012, 20:00
It's been a long time since you have read Exodus I suspect.

Exodus 20:20-22, "<sup>20</sup> After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. <sup id="en-NIV-1889" class="versenum">21</sup> By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. <sup id="en-NIV-1890" class="versenum">22</sup> Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people."

Kind of hard to miss a thing like that.

Kind of hard to believe.

Gunhaver
04-18-2012, 20:08
The OP was not to degrade science or compare it in a bad way to anything. It was a question to ask ...if you believe in the supernatural why try to use the natural to prove it ? Science is a tool. Religion is also a tool. Each can be used or misused.Why even pit one against the other. Thats about all it adds up to. Arguing.IMO Jesus used the natural to compare it to the things of God but not to prove it.

I'm aware that the OP was not to degrade science. I was responding to your comment that I quoted.

This attempt to put science and religion on equal footing just doesn't work. Science is clearly better. They can be misused but there's not a single thing that can't be misused so that's about all they have in common. Given the fact that plenty of atheists live happy productive lives without religion and science is basically out ability to make useful discoveries about the world (and beyond) around us, which would humans miss more? Which do they benefit from more?

Snapper2
04-18-2012, 20:23
I'm aware that the OP was not to degrade science. I was responding to your comment that I quoted.

This attempt to put science and religion on equal footing just doesn't work. Science is clearly better. They can be misused but there's not a single thing that can't be misused so that's about all they have in common. Given the fact that plenty of atheists live happy productive lives without religion and science is basically out ability to make useful discoveries about the world (and beyond) around us, which would humans miss more? Which do they benefit from more?
I dont look at it as either and or. Fact is we have both. Since you are promoting science I'll just say yes it would be a disaster to take our modern population back in time. But any attempt to remove/degrade either is an attack on rights. You have a God given right to be Atheist. God bless you.:whistling:

Gunhaver
04-18-2012, 21:19
I dont look at it as either and or. Fact is we have both. Since you are promoting science I'll just say yes it would be a disaster to take our modern population back in time. But any attempt to remove/degrade either is an attack on rights. You have a God given right to be Atheist. God bless you.:whistling:

It's looking like your argument against what I wasn't saying is falling apart and now I'm not saying that religion should be removed or degraded. Pointing out the absurdities of some religious individuals statements is not attacking their rights. Really? It's a human rights violation to disagree with someone now, even if in a condescending manner?

Snapper2
04-18-2012, 22:14
It's looking like your argument against what I wasn't saying is falling apart and now I'm not saying that religion should be removed or degraded. Pointing out the absurdities of some religious individuals statements is not attacking their rights. Really? It's a human rights violation to disagree with someone now, even if in a condescending manner?
:supergrin: no. I would not go that far. Sorry.

IhRedrider
04-19-2012, 20:29
Well, many of us know the Bible better than many of the believers.


How can you know the word of God and not believe that God exists? How can you understand what God has said, yet deny that he exists? Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the God that you know is calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to God, not come to some religious denomination. That is what drove you away from God to start with, isn't it?

IhRedrider
04-19-2012, 20:32
Well, since it was couched as "believer asks a believer", and I am not a believer, I did not think it was addressed to me.

So I did not see fit to provide any input.


Thank you. I retract my reference to you on this.

Maybe everyone will take heed of your example.

Syclone538
04-19-2012, 21:44
How can you know the word of God and not believe that God exists? How can you understand what God has said, yet deny that he exists?
...

:dunno:
Just another work of fiction like a lot of books.

edit
Did you study Greek mythology is school? How can you know the word of Zeus and not believe Zeus exists?
/edit

...
Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the God that you know is calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to God, not come to some religious denomination. That is what drove you away from God to start with, isn't it?

I think the extraordinary claims and lack of evidence is what caused a lot of us to lose faith.

Kingarthurhk
04-20-2012, 05:33
God did not reveal himself to them. He allegedly revealed himself to Moses. How do you know Moses wasn't hallucinating?

Moses and all the Israelites at once. Sorry, but it was witnessed by all of them.

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 07:28
Moses and all the Israelites at once. Sorry, but it was witnessed by all of them.

The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions of life and existence is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting everything dead wrong.

Bren
04-20-2012, 07:44
How can you know the word of God and not believe that God exists? How can you understand what God has said, yet deny that he exists? Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the God that you know is calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to God, not come to some religious denomination. That is what drove you away from God to start with, isn't it?

That doesn't even make sense. There are books with the words of Zeus and Odin and various Hindu and African and Voodoo gods and such - do you mean you believe they all exist?

Or are you suggesting that because your god's word is something you want to believe, that is a good enough reason to "believe" he exists.

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 07:48
How can you know the word of God and not believe that God exists? How can you understand what God has said, yet deny that he exists? Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the God that you know is calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to God, not come to some religious denomination. That is what drove you away from God to start with, isn't it?

It doesn't matter how passionately you believe something - that does not make it any more or less objectively true.

The argument you are using is basically akin to that where, just because someone yells their point louder than anyone else, means it must be true.

What you are saying is nonsense and it is so chock full of logical fallacy, you are tying yourself in rhetorical knots so tight you don't even know it.

fgutie35
04-20-2012, 08:04
Without going into a pi**ing contest, I will respond the OP's original question about " Are we suppose to be pushy about making non-believers to believe?
My personal opinion, is this: Althought there is writings on the bible that talk about spreading the gospel, and being responsible to make the sinner aware of his/her sins and repent (the watch tower passage), I think is not very productive to force some one into your beliefs, or try to proove your beliefs to any one who demands proof. Human Physcology will prove time and time again that it will not work that way. For some stubborn, people like me, or my brethen atheists on this forum, it will take God Himself, to call us back to his flock (He has his ways), and not a human being with his/her own interpretation of the WORD. For others, may be easier to persuade, by simply talking to them about the gospel or reading the bible. One thing is for sure, God knows how much will it take for EVERYONE of us to believe!

muscogee
04-20-2012, 08:39
How can you know the word of God and not believe that God exists? How can you understand what God has said, yet deny that he exists?
Because it doesn't make sense.

Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the God that you know is calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to God, not come to some religious denomination. That is what drove you away from God to start with, isn't it?
Been there, done that. God didn't return my calls. God's not interested in communicating with me or he does not exist. Either way what you suggest is a waste of time. If God want's to talk to me, I'm not hiding.

Celtic Pride
04-20-2012, 09:44
The Bible discourages you from trying to prove God exists because the authors knew you couldn't.

The Bible also says:

Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

- Proverbs 23:9

Celtic Pride
04-20-2012, 10:04
The OP was not to degrade science or compare it in a bad way to anything. It was a question to ask ...if you believe in the supernatural why try to use the natural to prove it ? Science is a tool. Religion is also a tool. Each can be used or misused.Why even pit one against the other. Thats about all it adds up to. Arguing.IMO Jesus used the natural to compare it to the things of God but not to prove it.

The athiests will not accept what can not be scientifically proven, so in their minds you have no valid position because faith by its very definition can not be proven. In my opinion (not fact athiests), some, not all of them on a deep level understand the seriousness of their position. Its not like they are betting a steak dinner here. Eternity is a loooooong time.

If we are wrong in the end, so what. We rot with the athiests, but if they are wrong.... its not that simple.

I believe some of them come to reassure themselves and each other of their position. They lean on constantly changing science, while we lean on faith. That is the constant theme of this board. Some times I think we all have too much time on our hands :cool:

Now sit back and watch the athiest attack. :supergrin:

IhRedrider
04-20-2012, 10:04
For some stubborn, people like me, or my brethen atheists on this forum, it will take God Himself, to call us back to his flock (He has his ways), and not a human being with his/her own interpretation of the WORD.


I agree with all of this. As I have said before, it is God's place to prove God, not man's place.



Because it doesn't make sense.


Just because someone doesn't understand something does not make it untrue. If a person misses one or more of the building blocks of understanding on the path to knowledge, they will never understand the truth and it will be a foreign language to them until they go back and get the basics. But with anything you have to want to know the truth, and be willing to release your own ideas and opinions. That is the hardest part. We all think far to much of ourselves then is warranted.


Either way what you suggest is a waste of time.


If you think searching for the truth is a waste of time, we have absolutely nothing in common.

IhRedrider
04-20-2012, 10:16
One thing is for sure, God knows how much will it take for EVERYONE of us to believe!

There are 2 groups of people, those who know God exists, and those who WILL know God exists.

Syclone538
04-20-2012, 10:56
The athiests will not accept what can not be scientifically proven, so in their minds you have no valid position because faith by its very definition can not be proven. In my opinion (not fact athiests), some, not all of them on a deep level understand the seriousness of their position. Its not like they are betting a steak dinner here. Eternity is a loooooong time.

If we are wrong in the end, so what. We rot with the athiests, but if they are wrong.... its not that simple.

I believe some of them come to reassure themselves and each other of their position. They lean on constantly changing science, while we lean on faith. That is the constant theme of this board. Some times I think we all have too much time on our hands :cool:

Now sit back and watch the athiest attack. :supergrin:

Pascal's wager has problems.

How many religions have there been? I'd hate to even guess, but it's a lot. If there is a correct religion, the odds of yours being it are slim. If there is a god and that god is jealous like God, you are in a worse position then an atheist.

muscogee
04-20-2012, 11:04
The Bible also says:

Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

- Proverbs 23:9

Well that proves it.

Geko45
04-20-2012, 11:04
Were's norske, geko and AG?

I was content to sit this one out, but since I have been mentioned...

Here is my question. How many believers here studied other religions before accepting their current faith as true? It seems to be a common theme for believers to be totally convinced that their faith is the correct one (somewhat understandably. afterall, why else would you believe it?)

But how do you know for sure? Did you perform a comparitive analysis of your current faith with others first to assess its validity? Did you study the bible, koran, torah, and the vedas each in turn? Did you attend services at a mosque, synagogue, hindu temple and catholic church to evaluate the general message of each? Did you study each in due diligence or did you just accept the first one you were taught?

The point being, if you did not evaluate each of the major religions before accepting your current faith as true then you really don't know for sure if it is correct. I'm sure many of you have studied other religions, but only from the context of accepting your current belief as true and the others as false. Quite likely, the study was geared to show you why they are false (which is really just a biased analysis).

Certainly, if your current faith was the true and correct one then it would have stood out amongst the others as irrefutable? But instead, we see everyone desperately clinging to the one they were first exposed to (and often raised in). Yes, some convert from non-faith to faith (and some from faith to non-faith, like me), but very few ever convert from their first faith to another.

muscogee
04-20-2012, 11:06
The athiests will not accept what can not be scientifically proven, so in their minds you have no valid position because faith by its very definition can not be proven. In my opinion (not fact athiests), some, not all of them on a deep level understand the seriousness of their position. Its not like they are betting a steak dinner here. Eternity is a loooooong time.

If we are wrong in the end, so what. We rot with the athiests, but if they are wrong.... its not that simple.

I believe some of them come to reassure themselves and each other of their position. They lean on constantly changing science, while we lean on faith. That is the constant theme of this board. Some times I think we all have too much time on our hands :cool:

Now sit back and watch the athiest attack. :supergrin:

The 99th rendition of Pascal's wager. It comes up here all the time.

Geko45
04-20-2012, 11:10
The 99th rendition of Pascal's wager. It comes up here all the time.

Seriously, I think the odometer rolled over on that one.

Geko45
04-20-2012, 11:12
In my opinion (not fact athiests), some, not all of them on a deep level understand the seriousness of their position. Its not like they are betting a steak dinner here. Eternity is a loooooong time.

Giving credit where credit is due, thank you for acknowledging this. It seems like most believers here think that athiests haven't even thoughtfully considered thier position.

muscogee
04-20-2012, 11:15
Just because someone doesn't understand something does not make it untrue. If a person misses one or more of the building blocks of understanding on the path to knowledge, they will never understand the truth and it will be a foreign language to them until they go back and get the basics. But with anything you have to want to know the truth, and be willing to release your own ideas and opinions. That is the hardest part. We all think far to much of ourselves then is warranted. Right, don't think. One more time, been there, done that.

If you think searching for the truth is a waste of time, we have absolutely nothing in common. Strawman. Educate yourself.

muscogee
04-20-2012, 11:17
There are 2 groups of people, those who know God exists, and those who WILL know God exists.

One more time. No evidence.

Snapper2
04-20-2012, 12:46
I was content to sit this one out, but since I have been mentioned...

Here is my question. How many believers here studied other religions before accepting their current faith as true? It seems to be a common theme for believers to be totally convinced that their faith is the correct one (somewhat understandably. afterall, why else would you believe it?)

But how do you know for sure? Did you perform a comparitive analysis of your current faith with others first to assess its validity? Did you study the bible, koran, torah, and the vedas each in turn? Did you attend services at a mosque, synagogue, hindu temple and catholic church to evaluate the general message of each? Did you study each in due diligence or did you just accept the first one you were taught?

The point being, if you did not evaluate each of the major religions before accepting your current faith as true then you really don't know for sure if it is correct. I'm sure many of you have studied other religions, but only from the context of accepting your current belief as true and the others as false. Quite likely, the study was geared to show you why they are false (which is really just a biased analysis).

Certainly, if your current faith was the true and correct one then it would have stood out amongst the others as irrefutable? But instead, we see everyone desperately clinging to the one they were first exposed to (and often raised in). Yes, some convert from non-faith to faith (and some from faith to non-faith, like me), but very few ever convert from their first faith to another.

Yes this post does make you think(over-think?). Every group has something to offer whether good or bad but have one thing in common. The need to separate from the pack. Christianity stands on grace but we feel we must add all kinds of goodies(change with the times).Science is always changing to keep up with the times and we all change with it. I guess the OP was originally to ask believers why they change what they believed in(trying to prove the supernatural by what is natural).But it seems IMO we all do it. Even doubters and unbelievers are always changing also. That was my main question to the believers/self. Why do we change with the times when we should only be changed by who we believe in according to His Word?

Woofie
04-20-2012, 13:34
"A believer asks a believer a question". A sure way to attract the atheists. It's almost like they are believers deep down, they just don't want to follow and obey.

Were's norske, geko and AG?

The very first reply to the "Atheist asks atheists a question" thread is from a believer.

By your reasoning: deep down he knows that christianity is false. Deep down you know it, too.

IhRedrider
04-20-2012, 20:00
Were's norske, geko and AG?


I guess you either can't recognize sarcasm, or you just can't wait to involve yourselves with Believers. Just make it easy on yourself and submit to the truth and become a believer. You will enjoy your life better if you do.

Geko45
04-20-2012, 20:38
Just make it easy on yourself and submit to the truth and become a believer. You will enjoy your life better if you do.

Arrogance.

:upeyes:

I enjoy my life much more now that I've thrown off your archaic superstitions.

Paul7
04-21-2012, 07:12
Arrogance.

:upeyes:

I enjoy my life much more now that I've thrown off your archaic superstitions.

And one day your life will be over. What then?

I have an opposite experience, my life keeps getting better the more I do God's will. Christianity is a life-long process of surrendering territory to God.

Paul7
04-21-2012, 07:14
Been there, done that. God didn't return my calls. God's not interested in communicating with me or he does not exist. Either way what you suggest is a waste of time. If God want's to talk to me, I'm not hiding.

Did you try genuine repentance first? If you have willful sin in your life such as pride it will be difficult communicating with God.

IhRedrider
04-21-2012, 19:25
The very first reply to the "Atheist asks atheists a question" thread is from a believer.

Not by me. Talk to him about what he posted. I'm talking to you about your posts. Nice try though.

Geko45
04-21-2012, 19:30
Did you try genuine repentance first? If you have willful sin in your life such as pride it will be difficult communicating with God.

No, I'm sure he spent years in the faith without ever trying the very first thing they teach you in Sunday school.

scccdoc
04-21-2012, 20:01
Well, many of us know the Bible better than many of the believers.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And many just say they do,or conveniently forget or take quotes out of context..........................................

Geko45
04-21-2012, 20:27
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And many just say they do,or conveniently forget or take quotes out of context..........................................

Alright, so you can officially stop using the lame defense that only others keep bringing this up and you keep trying to let it go?

:upeyes:

scccdoc
04-21-2012, 20:30
[QUOTE=Geko45;18876473]Alright, so you can officially stop using the lame defense that only others keep bringing this up and you keep trying to let it go?

:upeyes:[/QUOTE
No sense of humor?

Geko45
04-21-2012, 20:33
No sense of humor?

Hey, I'm just asking as that was your assertion in the last post I read from you on this. Guess you weren't being completely honest about that, eh?

scccdoc
04-21-2012, 20:35
Hey, I'm just asking as that was your assertion in the last post I read from you on this. Guess you weren't being completely honest about that, eh?
Possibly you haven't read all the posts.You guys can dish it out, but you can't take it !!!!!!!!!!

Geko45
04-21-2012, 20:39
Possibly you haven't read all the posts.You guys can dish it out, but you can't take it !!!!!!!!!!

No, we just call BS when we read it. Muscogee's mistake was at least an honest one. You're just a damn liar.


You guys keep bringing it up,I say "Let it go".

scccdoc
04-21-2012, 20:45
No, we just call BS when we read it. Muscogee's mistake was at least an honest one. You're just a damn liar.
Why so nasty? This is just a board............... Question : If musky just made a "mistake",why didn't he say so? And if he made a mistake , how am I lying about what he posted???????????

scccdoc
04-21-2012, 20:50
No, we just call BS when we read it. Muscogee's mistake was at least an honest one. You're just a damn liar.
Thank you , proof that I gave you guys the opportunity to "let it go". But you wouldn't,read your buddies post afterwards , really?

Geko45
04-21-2012, 20:56
Thank you , proof that I gave you guys the opportunity to "let it go". But you wouldn't,read your buddies post afterwards , really?

What? The one on April 10th? That was 11 freakin days ago!? Why are you bringing it up again!?!?

scccdoc
04-21-2012, 21:09
What? The one on April 10th? That was 11 freakin days ago!? Why are you bringing it up again!?!?
Well, to answer your question , he was boasting about an atheist's knowledge of the Bible.....he's said that so many times , so I'm reminding him of his "mistake".

But you didn't answer mine , a tactic you guys use (very effectively),but I'm learning.......

"Why so nasty? This is just a board............... Question : If musky just made a "mistake",why didn't he say so? And if he made a mistake , how am I lying about what he posted???????????"

I'll read your reply tomorrow , going to bed , church tomorrow , you know? Good night , no hard feelings , it ain't worth it....... DOC

Geko45
04-21-2012, 21:18
And if he made a mistake , how am I lying about what he posted???????????"

You aren't lying about what he posted, you are lying about what you posted. That you wanted to let it go, but we kept bringing it up. And here you are, 11 days later pulling it back off the heap for another round. Which leads me to conclude you were lying when you said you wanted to let it go.

Really, you knew full well what I meant, so I can only conclude that you are lying again by playing dumb right here, right now.

Have a good time in church tomorrow.

:upeyes:

muscogee
04-21-2012, 21:47
And one day your life will be over. What then?

If you've been bad you go to a garage apartment in Lufkin, Texas (right next to the paper mill). Its always the middle of summer and the air conditioning is broke so you have to leave the windows open. The only thing on TV is Martha Stewart re-runs.

If you've been good, you have a front row seat to every game of the sports team of your choice. The sport runs 365 days per year and all drinks and food are free and they're served by nubile naked women.

You can't prove it doesn't happen.

muscogee
04-21-2012, 21:52
Did you try genuine repentance first? If you have willful sin in your life such as pride it will be difficult communicating with God.

That's always the answer your kind give. "You didn't do it right, like I did." You know this because you have God in your pocket. Rather sanctimonious and prideful don't you think?

muscogee
04-21-2012, 22:03
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And many just say they do,or conveniently forget or take quotes out of context..........................................

OK, so call people out when they do that and put the quotes back in context. If you honestly look at this forum you will see believers cutting and stitching the Bible all the time to make it say what they want it so say. I love it when different denominations get in a cutting and stitching contest. It validates my belief that God doesn't exist.

Where do you think I learned to quote scripture? It wasn't at the pool hall. I sang my first church solo in 1952. I was quoting scripture and testifying long before I could read. I learned to cut and stitch with the best of them. Then, one day, I realized that was dishonest and stopped. Without cutting and stitching and making things up and ignoring things that don't make sense, the whole thing falls apart.

muscogee
04-21-2012, 22:05
Why so nasty? This is just a board............... Question : If musky just made a "mistake",why didn't he say so? And if he made a mistake , how am I lying about what he posted???????????

Not this again. Everyone stop feeding the troll. It's a waste of time and bandwidth.

Geko45
04-21-2012, 22:10
Not this again. Everyone stop feeding the troll. It's a waste of time and bandwidth.

I respectfully disagree. He needs to be called out on this nonsense so eveyone is completely aware that he has no credibility.

Snapper2
04-21-2012, 23:06
If you've been bad you go to a garage apartment in Lufkin, Texas (right next to the paper mill). Its always the middle of summer and the air conditioning is broke so you have to leave the windows open. The only thing on TV is Martha Stewart re-runs.
You can't prove it doesn't happen.
I was across town in the foundry. It was as dirty as hell.maybe it was just purgatory.:whistling: Those tall pines that surround that town really keep the heat in:steamed:.....maybe......naah it couldnt be.:dunno:

muscogee
04-22-2012, 10:34
I respectfully disagree. He needs to be called out on this nonsense so eveyone is completely aware that he has no credibility.

OK, your call.

muscogee
04-22-2012, 10:37
I was across town in the foundry. It was as dirty as hell.maybe it was just purgatory.:whistling: Those tall pines that surround that town really keep the heat in:steamed:.....maybe......naah it couldnt be.:dunno:

Close enough.

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 11:59
According to the Bible,where does it say you must try to prove that God exists to another?I realize you are to prove all things(to yourself) according to the faith that is given. It seems that we accept by faith that which is supernatural then turn around and try to prove it by something that is natural. Isn't this contrary to faith? Or are we to prove everything to everyone? I guess what I'm getting at is if you prove by the natural(to someone) that there is the supernatural, is that still faith in action?

Here's why. I posted this in another thread. Thought it might help.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18859471&postcount=85

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 12:09
It's been a long time since you have read Exodus I suspect.

Exodus 20:20-22, "<sup>20</sup> After leaving Sukkoth they camped at Etham on the edge of the desert. <sup id="en-NIV-1889" class="versenum">21</sup> By day the LORD went ahead of them in a pillar of cloud to guide them on their way and by night in a pillar of fire to give them light, so that they could travel by day or night. <sup id="en-NIV-1890" class="versenum">22</sup> Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people."

Kind of hard to miss a thing like that.

How does this square with Exodus 33:20 where God says that no man can see god and yet live? How does this square with John 1:18 where it says no one has ever seen god? There are scriptures in the Bible, and I don't feel like listing them all here, but some say God has revealed himself to man and some say that he hasn't. So, has he or hasn't he revealed himself to mankind?

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 12:17
How can you know the word of Zeus and not believe that Zeus exists? How can you understand what Zeus has said, yet deny that he exists? Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the Zeus that you know is calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to Zeus, not come to the Titans. That is what drove you away from Zeus to start with, isn't it?

How can you know the words of the three little pigs and not believe that the three little pigs exists? How can you understand what the three little pigs have said, yet deny that they exists? Just let go of your unbelief and come to the the three little pigs that you know are calling you. I would like to point out that I said, come to the three little pigs, not come to the big bad wolf. That is what drove you away from the three little pigs to start with, isn't it?

Here are just a couple different way I can fix it for ya. :rofl:

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 12:33
How does this square with Exodus 33:20 where God says that no man can see god and yet live? How does this square with John 1:18 where it says no one has ever seen god? There are scriptures in the Bible, and I don't feel like listing them all here, but some say God has revealed himself to man and some say that he hasn't. So, has he or hasn't he revealed himself to mankind?

It squares that He concealed His glory in the cloud durring the day, and fire at night.

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 12:42
So did they see him or not? Did he reveal himself or not. Seems that they saw smoke and fire probably some mirrors too. You said that everyone saw him but god says no one can see him and Jesus says that no one has seen him. Which is it? Do we believe god and Jesus or moses?

Bren
04-22-2012, 12:57
How does this square with Exodus 33:20 where God says that no man can see god and yet live? How does this square with John 1:18 where it says no one has ever seen god? There are scriptures in the Bible, and I don't feel like listing them all here, but some say God has revealed himself to man and some say that he hasn't. So, has he or hasn't he revealed himself to mankind?

If you just watched the TV series "Supernatural" on CW, you'd know the answers to all of these questions, as well as how to kill both demons and angels. And they have an awesome car.

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 13:06
If you just watched the TV series "Supernatural" on CW, you'd know the answers to all of these questions, as well as how to kill both demons and angels. And they have an awesome car.

I like the car. The theology is all messed up. But, what can you expect from Hollywood?

Snapper2
04-22-2012, 13:48
Here's why. I posted this in another thread. Thought it might help.

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18859471&postcount=85
You know what? It might not mean much but I actually commend what you and a few other Atheist say on this forum. I know that when people get insulted in one way or another it becomes personal and take on a whatever you believe in I'm against type of mentality.But if you cant get over an insult in a day or two or a month:supergrin: we should just lock overselves in the house(oh wait,we already do):embarassed:. As for the word religion, it does bring an unavoidable train wreck where no one wins IMO. If you look at the teachings of Jesus,the only ones He doesn't see much hope for is the religious. I think we're all religious in on way or the other. The bible teaches that is if you want to be religious prove it by your actions of being a servant and not as your words as a teacher.... taking care of orphans and widows in their time of need and no jumping through hoops.

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 14:07
If you just watched the TV series "Supernatural" on CW, you'd know the answers to all of these questions, as well as how to kill both demons and angels. And they have an awesome car.

But, alas, I did not watch it am still in the dark about these answers.

Vic Hays
04-22-2012, 21:14
So did they see him or not? Did he reveal himself or not. Seems that they saw smoke and fire probably some mirrors too. You said that everyone saw him but god says no one can see him and Jesus says that no one has seen him. Which is it? Do we believe god and Jesus or moses?

Moses saw God's back and his face shone so much that he had to put a veil over it. Moses did not see God's face.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and you shall stand on a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 21:42
Moses saw God's back and his face shone so much that he had to put a veil over it. Moses did not see God's face.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, You can not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and you shall stand on a rock:
33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passes by, that I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and will cover you with my hand while I pass by:
33:23 And I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Oh, yes, I do remember that part now. Moses couldn't see his face. But his did see his "back parts". Little bit anti-climatic if you ask me but, hey, I didn't write it.

This does cause another problem though. This means that we can't trust the author that penned the first chapter of John then can we. He wrote at John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]."

Or, if we are to trust the first chapter of John, then Moses would have to be God's son.

Vic Hays
04-22-2012, 22:10
Oh, yes, I do remember that part now. Moses couldn't see his face. But his did see his "back parts". Little bit anti-climatic if you ask me but, hey, I didn't write it.

This does cause another problem though. This means that we can't trust the author that penned the first chapter of John then can we. He wrote at John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]."

Or, if we are to trust the first chapter of John, then Moses would have to be God's son.

I think that you are being too literal. Usually you must take the first occurance in the Bible and compare others with it. God said that no man could see His face and live. God's back is not His face. Some men will see His face though.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Psalm 11:7 For Jehovah is righteous; he loveth righteousness: The upright shall behold his face.

lomfs24
04-22-2012, 23:38
I think that you are being too literal. This is the part that most people who are not religious have a problem with. Some parts of the Bible are to be taken literally, others are not. And there are no clear cut answers as to who gets to make the call as to what parts are taken literally and which aren't. And each sect takes different parts of the Bible literally or allegorically.

Usually you must take the first occurance in the Bible and compare others with it.
Unless it doesn't fit with the point that you are trying to make.

God said that no man could see His face and live. OK. Now the Bible doesn't literally say that Adam and Eve saw God. But they were pretty close to him. Came and visited them in the garden. The Bible doesn't say this was the first time in Chapter 3 that God came around visiting about tea time. (Gen 3:8) But neither Adam or Eve were surprised by the visit from God. What they were surprised about is that they hadn't made it over to WalMart yet to pick up a toga.

Now it doesn't say God showed himself to them but they did get quite chatty. And you just told me that I shouldn't take the Bible too literally. So did Adam and Eve see God? I am sure your answer will be that literally the Bible didn't say they saw him so they didn't.
God's back is not His face. Ok, so we can see his back side but not his face?
Some men will see His face though.
What? Wait a gosh durned minute here. You just got done telling me we couldn't see his face. And I believed you because that's what God said earliest in the Bible. I took your advice and took the first occurrence in the Bible. And there is says you can't see his face.

Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
So is Rev 22 to be taken literally? Or is it a vision? A prophecy of something else? Something greater? Because if it's to be taken literally there is a river coming out of a chair. And there is a tree with 12 different kinds of fruit that bears fruit all year. And what's even better is the leaves of that tree are like a pharmacy for everyone on earth! Seems more like it's a symbol of something else. And if that's the case men won't see God's face. Perhaps men who are now angels will see his face. Angels that are to rule with God in heaven as a later verse brings out.

Psalm 11:7 For Jehovah is righteous; he loveth righteousness: The upright shall behold his face.
But we should take this scripture literally, though. Right? The upright shall behold his face. OK. That means that we should also take the scripture in context and see how it's placed. Hmmm, let's start with vs. 6.
Upon the wicked He will rain coals; Fire and brimstone and a burning wind [Shall be] the portion of their cup.

Now wait just another gosh durned minute. In a different thread about The Truth About Hell (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18875637&postcount=56) you told me that the Bible doesn't teach us about a fiery hell. That Jesus followers only got that idea from Greek mythology. But now I see where they really got it from.

Again, Vic, this is the problem with the Bible, there are too many holes in it. Too many loopholes. Too many, well you're taking that part too literally, or you are to take that part literally but not the part next to it.

And I am still just as confused as to whether people can see God or not. Since we haven't actually ever seen him I would guess that we can't and these other scriptures are hogwash. Or if these other scriptures are not hogwash and we can see him, but we haven't, he must not exist.

scccdoc
04-23-2012, 06:25
You aren't lying about what he posted, you are lying about what you posted. That you wanted to let it go, but we kept bringing it up. And here you are, 11 days later pulling it back off the heap for another round. Which leads me to conclude you were lying when you said you wanted to let it go.

Really, you knew full well what I meant, so I can only conclude that you are lying again by playing dumb right here, right now.

Have a good time in church tomorrow.

:upeyes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just making an observation of his continuous claims which are getting old.As far as dropping this,when I asked, you guys could have said "OK",instead,I was attacked(hence,"the gang") I assume your pride prevented "letting it go".Musky even challenged me after that,being a hypocrite,displaying my "righteousness". Do we play only under your rules?I was willing to let it go,musky continued.Eleven days? yeah,I got bored with the conversation and left it alone until he started boasting.

Thank you for admitting musky made a "mistake", not how I would define it,but it's a start....................

scccdoc
04-23-2012, 06:29
Oh,Geko, thanks for saying that I wasn't lying about what muskie posted.................

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 08:47
This is the part that most people who are not religious have a problem with. Some parts of the Bible are to be taken literally, others are not. And there are no clear cut answers as to who gets to make the call as to what parts are taken literally and which aren't. And each sect takes different parts of the Bible literally or allegorically.

And I am still just as confused as to whether people can see God or not. Since we haven't actually ever seen him I would guess that we can't and these other scriptures are hogwash. Or if these other scriptures are not hogwash and we can see him, but we haven't, he must not exist.

Seeing God depends upon your status as far as sin.

Jesus can see the Father because He is sinless. Those who have sin in their lives cannot see God and live.

Put that together with the various texts about seeing God's face or walking with God. Look at the forest instead of getting confused by the trees.

Isaiah 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Woofie
04-23-2012, 08:59
Not by me. Talk to him about what he posted. I'm talking to you about your posts. Nice try though.

That didn't stop you from calling out all athiests when it is clear that not all of them had posted. I'm just using your standard here.

lomfs24
04-23-2012, 09:33
Seeing God depends upon your status as far as sin.

Jesus can see the Father because He is sinless. Those who have sin in their lives cannot see God and live.



This bring us back full circle. Jesus can see God because he was not sinful. OK. But people who are sinners cannot. Everyone sins. Even Moses. Yet he saw God, or at least his back side. Then the other scriptures you posted about the righteous seeing God's face can't be true. They may be righteous, but are still sinners. As sin was handed down from Adam and Eve. There is no way around it, it doesn't match up.