Does religion forbid belief in possibile life elsewhere in the universe? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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IndianaMatt
04-18-2012, 07:36
It would seem like the discovery of intelligent life far out in the universe would be inapposite to the creation schemes of most religions - like that would undermine the idea of man's greatness and singularity as the image of god.

After all, only a few hundred years ago, the geocentric model, univerally accepted by Christianity at the time, held that the earth was the center of the universe and all that existed. We now know that that is about as far from the truth as can possibly be.

So how can Judeo/Christian/Islamic doctrine accept the possibility of intelligent, sentient, life dwelling on distant planets?

Vic Hays
04-18-2012, 09:17
The universe is full of life. This is not in opposition to mans unique position as being created and recreated in the image of God.

The earth will become the headquarters of God because God became a man to save us.

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Celtic Pride
04-18-2012, 09:47
After all, only a few hundred years ago, the geocentric model, univerally accepted by Christianity at the time, held that the earth was the center of the universe and all that existed. We now know that that is about as far from the truth as can possibly be.


Does the Bible profess the earth to be the center of the universe, or was it decided by men of the time? I think that point is important to consider.

John Rambo
04-18-2012, 09:58
Does the Bible profess the earth to be the center of the universe, or was it decided by men of the time? I think that point is important to consider.

I don't think the bible addressed the universe beyond Earth at all, because when it was written by people, the people who wrote it had no grasp of outer space. Please correct me if I'm wrong, of course, as long as twisting words isn't the mechanism used to correct me.

IndianaMatt
04-18-2012, 10:34
Does the Bible profess the earth to be the center of the universe, or was it decided by men of the time? ....

What's the difference?

cowboywannabe
04-18-2012, 10:43
why would God wast his time making more people in his likeness on other planets if he already has us?

IndianaMatt
04-18-2012, 10:48
why would God wast his time making more people in his likeness on other planets if he already has us?

Lol, I guess that settles the question of life on other planets once and for all!

windplex
04-18-2012, 10:53
deleted

Roering
04-18-2012, 11:03
It would seem like the discovery of intelligent life far out in the universe would be inapposite to the creation schemes of most religions - like that would undermine the idea of man's greatness and singularity as the image of god.

After all, only a few hundred years ago, the geocentric model, univerally accepted by Christianity at the time, held that the earth was the center of the universe and all that existed. We now know that that is about as far from the truth as can possibly be.

So how can Judeo/Christian/Islamic doctrine accept the possibility of intelligent, sentient, life dwelling on distant planets?

I guess it depends on the religion. As for Christianity I see no conflict with it.

AlexHassin
04-18-2012, 13:05
From my understanding ( get a Muslim in hear to clear me up though)Islam would have a good explanation. If memoryserves correct there is a hadith(sp) the rules, for different critters, so whynot to extraterrestrials?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

More interestingly. If we did have contact would religion becausea reason to feel superior and as moral leader, akin to Vic’s reasoning. <o:p></o:p>

IndianaMatt
04-18-2012, 13:46
....

More interestingly. If we did have contact would religion becausea reason to feel superior and as moral leader, akin to Vicís reasoning. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


Christianity generally saw no problem with slavery, especially in the American South, so I don't see why it wouldn't characterize (in the eyes of some Christians, at least) alien races as similarly inferior.

Guss
04-18-2012, 15:43
Christianity generally saw no problem with slavery, especially in the American South, so I don't see why it wouldn't characterize (in the eyes of some Christians, at least) alien races as similarly inferior.
But what happens when the superior aliens land on our planet and command us to believe in THEIR gods and kill those who don't go along?

Guss
04-18-2012, 15:44
why would God wast his time making more people in his likeness on other planets if he already has us?
Maybe we were just a beta version. He was obviously unhappy with his work here.

muscogee
04-18-2012, 18:07
At the time the Bible was written, people had no idea there were other planets. They thought planets they could see from Earth were stars. Heaven was above us. Hell was below. Where else would other life be?

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 18:10
At the time the Bible was written, people had no idea there were other planets. They thought planets they could see from Earth were stars. Heaven was above us. Hell was below. Where else would other life be?

Incorrect. There is no place in scripture that supports the concept that hell is beneath your feet and constantly ignited at this very moment.

That is why I took the effort to put that silly myth to bed with the following link just recently:

http://www.helltruth.com/free-resources/free-video-library/articletype/articleview/articleid/1576/what-and-where-is-hell-is-hellfire-real-does-it-burn-forever.aspx

muscogee
04-18-2012, 18:22
Incorrect. There is no place in scripture that supports the concept that hell is beneath your feet and constantly ignited at this very moment.

That is why I took the effort to put that silly myth to bed with the following link just recently:

http://www.helltruth.com/free-resources/free-video-library/articletype/articleview/articleid/1576/what-and-where-is-hell-is-hellfire-real-does-it-burn-forever.aspx

You're right. The Bible does not say where Heaven and Hell are. IIRC, the idea Heaven was above and Hell was below was Egyptian. However, the authors of the Bible didn't question it. That's why the myth survived.

Are you saying that the authors of the Bible knew the difference between planets, gas giants, and stars?

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 18:25
You're right. The Bible does not say where Heaven and Hell are. IIRC, the idea Heaven was above and Hell was below was Egyptian. However, the authors of the Bible didn't question it. That's why the myth survived.

Are you saying that the authors of the Bible knew the difference between planets, gas giants, and stars?

Actually, it has been explained in scripture. Which is why I posted the link in an OP, and placed it again here. I think part of the aversion toward God, is the misunderstanding of hell.

muscogee
04-18-2012, 18:43
Actually, it has been explained in scripture. Which is why I posted the link in an OP, and placed it again here. I think part of the aversion toward God, is the misunderstanding of hell.

Explain it. I don't have time for your videos.

Kingarthurhk
04-18-2012, 18:53
Explain it. I don't have time for your videos.

They're not mine. I don't own them, appear in them, or make them.

That being said, the reader's digest abreviated version is as follows:

Hell does not currently exist. There are not people being tormented in hell at this moment.

Further, hell was designed for the fallen angels that brought temptation and sin to man and who caused war in heaven. It was never intended for mankind.

Hell is a complete destruction by fire, it is not a place of eternal doom where sinners are tormented by Satan and demons forever. This a pagan medieval concept, never supported by scripture.

The destruction by God is called a "strange act" He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.

The reason that evil must be completely destroyed and blotted out, is so that when the earth is made new as it once was, and everything is put right again, that there won't be a place of strife, of evil, of cruelty, of disease, of murder, of death. Death itself is destroyed.

That is what hell is. God is not a sadist.

Norske
04-18-2012, 19:46
Does the Bible profess the earth to be the center of the universe, or was it decided by men of the time? I think that point is important to consider.

Well, Galileo got a sentence of "House Arrest for Life" by the Roman Catholic Church for raising the possibility that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

Simply because he had the gall to tell people that he saw, through his telescope, that moons were circling Jupiter and not the Earth.

:faint:

Heresy!

All of organized religion is just one case of organized idiocy, after another, after another, after another, now and forevermore, Amen.

muscogee
04-18-2012, 20:07
They're not mine. I don't own them, appear in them, or make them.

That being said, the reader's digest abreviated version is as follows:

Hell does not currently exist. There are not people being tormented in hell at this moment.

Further, hell was designed for the fallen angels that brought temptation and sin to man and who caused war in heaven. It was never intended for mankind.

Hell is a complete destruction by fire, it is not a place of eternal doom where sinners are tormented by Satan and demons forever. This a pagan medieval concept, never supported by scripture.

The destruction by God is called a "strange act" He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked.

The reason that evil must be completely destroyed and blotted out, is so that when the earth is made new as it once was, and everything is put right again, that there won't be a place of strife, of evil, of cruelty, of disease, of murder, of death. Death itself is destroyed.

That is what hell is. God is not a sadist.

Thanks. That's interesting. You realize most denominations would say you're a heretic?

Gunhaver
04-18-2012, 20:17
i admit to being a light weight in this area especially compared to many who frequent here. i do have a question, though:

in the story of creation wouldnt it have been mentioned if God created life elsewhere in the universe and beyond (i am assuming that an all knowing and all creating god would have done this and explained it to followers and followers would have documented).

and the follow on question: when life is found on other planets how will (some) religiion explain this over sight in their book?

Of course Scientology has this covered.

God has a habit of leaving important information out of the bible. He needed lots of room to tell us repeatedly how awesome he is and how we shouldn't doubt him or look toward other gods.

Guss
04-18-2012, 21:46
...

Hell is a complete destruction by fire, it is not a place of eternal doom where sinners are tormented by Satan and demons forever. This a pagan medieval concept, never supported by scripture.

....
So we can't believe Luke?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25643">22</sup>And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25644">23</sup>And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25645">24</sup>And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Kingarthurhk
04-19-2012, 03:29
Thanks. That's interesting. You realize most denominations would say you're a heretic?

That is irrelevant to me. What the bible says is more important than what people have made up.

Kingarthurhk
04-19-2012, 03:41
So we can't believe Luke?
<sup id="en-KJV-25643" class="versenum">22</sup>And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; <sup id="en-KJV-25644" class="versenum">23</sup>And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
<sup id="en-KJV-25645" class="versenum">24</sup>And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

That is a parable. An extremely detailed explanation can be found here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

It is fairly consistent to my understanding of the parable. The Rich man has to do with the Spiritual blessings of Israel and their obligation to spread the message of the Messiah to the world. The beggar are the "Gentiles", the rest of the world.

This parable has nothing whatsoever to do with a litteral hell.

cowboywannabe
04-19-2012, 04:29
That is a parable. An extremely detailed explanation can be found here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm

It is fairly consistent to my understanding of the parable. The Rich man has to do with the Spiritual blessings of Israel and their obligation to spread the message of the Messiah to the world. The beggar are the "Gentiles", the rest of the world.

This parable has nothing whatsoever to do with a litteral hell.

what?! we need a book (bible) to tell us what god meant, now we need another book to tell us what the bible meant?

Kingarthurhk
04-19-2012, 05:15
what?! we need a book (bible) to tell us what god meant, now we need another book to tell us what the bible meant?

It is not another book. It is simply a more detailed explanation that I have the time to relate at the moment, and probably the posting page. Review it, and you will see it is replete with scripture. It is no different if I had a couple hours (which at the moment I do not), to explain the Parable in detail.

cowboywannabe
04-19-2012, 05:47
It is not another book. It is simply a more detailed explanation that I have the time to relate at the moment, and probably the posting page. Review it, and you will see it is replete with scripture. It is no different if I had a couple hours (which at the moment I do not), to explain the Parable in detail.

so youre saying the bible is not self evident? not to be taken literally?

eracer
04-19-2012, 07:12
What's the difference?Exactly what Agnostics like me try to point out all the time.

muscogee
04-19-2012, 07:12
That is irrelevant to me. What the bible says is more important than what people have made up.

First base.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfmvkO5x6Ng

The Catholic Bible you reference was made up.

Vic Hays
04-19-2012, 09:16
So we can't believe Luke?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25643">22</sup>And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25644">23</sup>And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-25645">24</sup>And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

A parable has a deeper meaning than the literal meaning. Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. For those who are teachable and following Jesus the parables are meant to be understood.


Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said to him, Why speak you to them in parables?
13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
13:12 For whoever has, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whoever has not, from him shall be taken away even that he has.
13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which said, By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive:

The punchline in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus gives away the purpose and meaning.

As King said the Jews were blessed immensely and then they because of unbelief rejected the One who had blessed them.

Luke 16:31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Gunhaver
04-19-2012, 09:49
Can't the word of god be written in a clear concise manner that doesn't leave room for interpretation? Of course it could if it were written by a god that were as all wise and all knowing as he's said to be. That wouldn't give any wiggle room for different folks to put their own spin on it and distort that all important message into dozens of different branches and people who can't understand basic principles of logic proclaiming to be ambassadors of god. Everywhere you look someone has a different opinion of what every verse means and a reason why you should listen to them.

Cue the next Christian to come along and explain the "right way" to interpret it. Even man has figured out how to put words down in no uncertain terms when the information at hand is important. Why couldn't god?

ArtificialGrape
04-19-2012, 10:00
Can't the word of god be written in a clear concise manner that doesn't leave room for interpretation? Of course it could if it were written by a god that were as all wise and all knowing as he's said to be. That wouldn't give any wiggle room for different folks to put their own spin on it and distort that all important message into dozens of different branches and people who can't understand basic principles of logic proclaiming to be ambassadors of god. Everywhere you look someone has a different opinion of what every verse means and a reason why you should listen to them.

I've made the same point, for Jesus to be the Word, He sure left a lot of room for (mis)interpretation, and being omniscient knew this would happen.

What God should gift mankind with is a literate editor to combine the Old and New Testaments, clearly call out parables, allegories and true stories, and redact all the parts that Christians are no longer bound by.

-ArtificialGrape

windplex
04-19-2012, 10:20
God has a habit of leaving important information out of the bible. He needed lots of room to tell us repeatedly how awesome he is and how we shouldn't doubt him or look toward other gods.

Thank you for your response!

cowboywannabe
04-19-2012, 11:09
if God did tell man to write the bible in riddles or other nondirect manners, he must have known that man would question what is left unanswered. how can God fault man now for asking questions about so much that he himself chose to leave out?

Arc Angel
04-19-2012, 11:59
It would seem like the discovery of intelligent life far out in the universe would be inapposite to the creation schemes of most religions - like that would undermine the idea of man's greatness and singularity as the image of god.

After all, only a few hundred years ago, the geocentric model, univerally accepted by Christianity at the time, held that the earth was the center of the universe and all that existed. We now know that that is about as far from the truth as can possibly be.

So how can Judeo/Christian/Islamic doctrine accept the possibility of intelligent, sentient, life dwelling on distant planets?

Anyone who would understand God must first understand His creation. We are, all, 'images of God'. Every living breathing sentient being on the face of this earth is an expression of, 'The Mind Of God'. Every living breathing sentient being on the face of this earth also represents, at least, one distinct facet of God's complex and myriad intellect.

There is, obviously, other intelligent life, 'far out there in the universe'. It just ain't us; and, at the present time, it's none of our particular business, either. 'Man's greatness', you say? As long as mankind continues to be sinful and follows it's most base instincts, men are never going to be great. That is NOT going to happen.

You shouldn't apply the, 'mentality' of the medieval Roman Catholic Church to all of Judeo-Christianity. THAT is a mistake. The Holy Bible does, indeed, mention the heavens, different degrees and presentations of heaven, as well as the constellations and stars of the heavens; e.g.:

'O Lord, our Lord, how excellent is Thy Name in all the earth! Who hast set Thy Glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast Thou ordained strength because of Thine enemies, that Thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. When I consider Thy heavens, the work of Thy Fingers, the moon and the stars, which Thou hast ordained; What is man, that Thou art mindful of him; and the Son of Man, that Thou visitest Him? (Psalm 8:1-4)

'Lift up your eyes on high, and behold Who hath created these things, (the stars of the heavens) that bringeth out their host by number: He (God, Almighty) calleth them all by names, by the greatness of His Might, for that He is strong in power; not one (of these stars) faileth.' (Isaiah 40:26)

I've got a question for you, Indiana. 'Why does God give personal names to material objects like the stars?'

Arc Angel
04-19-2012, 12:05
if God did tell man to write the bible in riddles or other nondirect manners, he must have known that man would question what is left unanswered. how can God fault man now for asking questions about so much that he himself chose to leave out?

An interesting remark! Quite revealing, too. How is it that you have so completely failed to grasp Sacred Scripture's most fundamental didactic method?

Fun Reading: http://www.horizonenergycorp.com/hpo/constellations/bible.htm

muscogee
04-19-2012, 12:28
A parable has a deeper meaning than the literal meaning. Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. For those who are teachable and following Jesus the parables are meant to be understood.


How do you know the entire Bible isn't a series of parables with no literal meaning?

cowboywannabe
04-19-2012, 12:32
An interesting remark! Quite revealing, too. How is it that you have so completely failed to grasp Sacred Scripture's most fundamental didactic method?

Fun Reading: http://www.horizonenergycorp.com/hpo/constellations/bible.htm

i like to read a book that says what the author means. no room for misinterpretation. that method was lost on the bible.

if the bible was written to leave open ends then why do many who believe in God fault those who come to different conclusions?

God, knew man would be a skeptic, yet he still told other men to write in a way that was indecisive. did God give man the ability to use logic and reason? or is that something man created on his own? as in evolved to do so?

windplex
04-19-2012, 12:36
duplicate

Geko45
04-19-2012, 13:10
if God did tell man to write the bible in riddles or other nondirect manners, he must have known that man would question what is left unanswered. how can God fault man now for asking questions about so much that he himself chose to leave out?

god needs to take a persuasive writing class.

Paul7
04-19-2012, 21:19
if God did tell man to write the bible in riddles or other nondirect manners, he must have known that man would question what is left unanswered. how can God fault man now for asking questions about so much that he himself chose to leave out?

The Bible contains all things necessary for salvation, it does not answer every question you can dream up.

Animal Mother
04-20-2012, 04:05
'Lift up your eyes on high, and behold Who hath created these things, (the stars of the heavens) that bringeth out their host by number: He (God, Almighty) calleth them all by names, by the greatness of His Might, for that He is strong in power; not one (of these stars) faileth.' (Isaiah 40:26)

I've got a question for you, Indiana. 'Why does God give personal names to material objects like the stars?'I think a better question would be what should we conclude about this passage in light of the fact that stars fail all the time?

cowboywannabe
04-20-2012, 05:13
The Bible contains all things necessary for salvation, it does not answer every question you can dream up.

in this day and age of immediate media contact with the other side of the world, even in third world countries, it is ashame to believe all those good deed doers will burn in hell because they are not christian and do not subscribe to the bible.

Kingarthurhk
04-20-2012, 05:25
in this day and age of immediate media contact with the other side of the world, even in third world countries, it is ashame to believe all those good deed doers will burn in hell because they are not christian and do not subscribe to the bible.

It is a shame to see people reject Jesus. We are not saved by our deeds, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of that sacrifice and asking Him into our lives.

It really is a simple thing.

cowboywannabe
04-20-2012, 06:19
It is a shame to see people reject Jesus. We are not saved by our deeds, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of that sacrifice and asking Him into our lives.

It really is a simple thing.

yeah, and none of the budist, hindus, american indians, jews (ironic that jesus was a jew) et cetera will go to heaven because they do not follow the christian script.

really, only about 1/32 of the population in the world today can go to heaven unless they forsake their religion and change over to christianty.

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 07:44
The Bible contains all things necessary for salvation, it does not answer every question you can dream up.

Isn't there more to life and knowing the world than just worrying about going to heaven?

Too much focus on the afterlife is exactly why we live in an age of waste, overconsumption, environmental calamity, racial intolerance, mass murder, suicide bombings, September 11ths, cruelty to animals, genocide, war without purpose, and lack of respect for animal and human life in general.

Who cares what I do on this earth in the here and now - what matters is that I get to hang out wit da lawd and Ronald Reagan when I go to teh clouds!!

muscogee
04-20-2012, 08:06
It is a shame to see people reject Jesus. We are not saved by our deeds, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of that sacrifice and asking Him into our lives.

It really is a simple thing.

By divorcing salvation from behavior, you allow people to accept Christ and then live any way they want to. I know you want add caveats and say it's more sophisticated than that, but it's really not. Divorcing deeds from salvation is the only way many of the Christians I have know could harbor the fantasy of going to Heaven.

Kingarthurhk
04-20-2012, 15:16
By divorcing salvation from behavior, you allow people to accept Christ and then live any way they want to. I know you want add caveats and say it's more sophisticated than that, but it's really not. Divorcing deeds from salvation is the only way many of the Christians I have know could harbor the fantasy of going to Heaven.

No. I am simply saying that you cannot work your way into heaven. You can't earn it. There is nothing you can do to make yourself worthy enough for it. There is not a single soul who ever walked this earth except Jesus Christ who never sinned. When He died, paying the penalty for our sin, He made a way of escape for us. It is by accepting Him and believing in Him by which we are saved. And as we grow in a relationship with Him, we will want to do things to please Him. By His power and by a relationship with Him will we want to do deeds.

Faith without deeds is dead, likewise deeds without faith is also dead.

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 15:57
Can't the word of god be written in a clear concise manner that doesn't leave room for interpretation? Of course it could if it were written by a god that were as all wise and all knowing as he's said to be. That wouldn't give any wiggle room for different folks to put their own spin on it and distort that all important message into dozens of different branches and people who can't understand basic principles of logic proclaiming to be ambassadors of god. Everywhere you look someone has a different opinion of what every verse means and a reason why you should listen to them.

Cue the next Christian to come along and explain the "right way" to interpret it. Even man has figured out how to put words down in no uncertain terms when the information at hand is important. Why couldn't god?

The basic truths of the Bible are easy enough for a child to understand. Are you able to understand the following Example?

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Now do you understand? It is the heart of man that wants to turn every direction but to the light with all sorts of weird interpretations.

Gunhaver
04-20-2012, 16:02
I think a better question would be what should we conclude about this passage in light of the fact that stars fail all the time?

Good point.

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 16:23
Good point.

Did you miss my answer?


The basic truths of the Bible are easy enough for a child to understand. Are you able to understand the following Example?

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Now do you understand? It is the heart of man that wants to turn every direction but to the light with all sorts of weird interpretations.

Geko45
04-20-2012, 17:03
The basic truths of the Bible are easy enough for a child to understand. Are you able to understand the following Example?

That's really part of the problem Vic. It's childlike. Are we really supposed to believe that the cosmos was created in all it's intricate complexity for such a childish purpose? For those of us driven by the quest to learn, it seems so two dimensional and unsatisfying. Is there really nothing more than worshipping a deity so I can float around in eternal paradise? God really doesn't have any greater purpose for us? The afterlife as described in the bible doesn't even seem that interesting.

I would find the quest to set out on my own in search of other life out there to be infinitely more fascinating than to live in a very nice cage with all my needs provided for me. The adventure of striking out on my own (including the risk of failure) is so much more stimulating.

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 18:24
That's really part of the problem Vic. It's childlike. Are we really supposed to believe that the cosmos was created in all it's intricate complexity for such a childish purpose? For those of us driven by the quest to learn, it seems so two dimensional and unsatisfying. Is there really nothing more than worshipping a deity so I can float around in eternal paradise? God really doesn't have any greater purpose for us? The afterlife as described in the bible doesn't even seem that interesting.

I would find the quest to set out on my own in search of other life out there to be infinitely more fascinating than to live in a very nice cage with all my needs provided for me. The adventure of striking out on my own (including the risk of failure) is so much more stimulating.

Who said the kingdom of heaven is a cage?
You will be able to travel anywhere in the universe. You will be able to learn anything about anything. You will not even need to sleep and there will be no night. You will have no fatigue. The only thing missing is warfare and trouble.

Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpentís meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait on the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

steveksux
04-20-2012, 18:34
god needs to take a persuasive writing class.HE already knows this, as he is omniscient.

Randy

steveksux
04-20-2012, 18:38
It is a shame to see people reject Jesus. We are not saved by our deeds, but through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and the acceptance of that sacrifice and asking Him into our lives.And in case anyone doubts this:

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTkwNjgyNTk1Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTI0ODEzMQ@@._V1._SY317_CR4,0,214,317_.jpg

:supergrin:

Randy

steveksux
04-20-2012, 18:41
So does the Bible have a parable that explains why God is so beset by psychological problems that he feels the need to create beings just so they can worship him? That's just a little narcissistic, don't you think?

Randy

Animal Mother
04-20-2012, 21:24
The basic truths of the Bible are easy enough for a child to understand. Are you able to understand the following Example? What does this have to do with my question? The passage quoted by ArcAngel explicitly says, "not one (of these stars) faileth" but stars fail all the time. V1974 Cygni is an example.

Animal Mother
04-20-2012, 21:25
So does the Bible have a parable that explains why God is so beset by psychological problems that he feels the need to create beings just so they can worship him? That's just a little narcissistic, don't you think?

Randy To be fair, if you're omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent it would be hard not to be narcissistic. Everything is literally you.

Arc Angel
04-20-2012, 21:25
i like to read a book that says what the author means. no room for misinterpretation. that method was lost on the bible.

if the bible was written to leave open ends then why do many who believe in God fault those who come to different conclusions?

God, knew man would be a skeptic, yet he still told other men to write in a way that was indecisive. did God give man the ability to use logic and reason? or is that something man created on his own? as in evolved to do so?

You may be correct! No Sacred Scripture that I know of is written for idiots. (I'm not being personal; and I don't, necessarily, mean you - OK!) If you're having trouble comprehending biblical texts there's always great Hollywood movies like, 'The Ten Commandments' or, 'King Of Kings'. Perhaps you'll get farther with these?

I think a better question would be what should we conclude about this passage in light of the fact that stars fail all the time?

Are you saying that you know all there is to know about: stars, star births, star deaths, and, 'black holes'? You remind me of a Pharisee asking for a mircle. Even if I knew the answer to your question I would be loath to tell you because I'm positive you wouldn't believe me, anyway. Some people are born to just, 'doubt themselves to death'. I've long thought that you are one of them.

Animal Mother
04-20-2012, 22:35
Are you saying that you know all there is to know about: stars, star births, star deaths, and, 'black holes'? No, I don't know all there is to know, but then I don't need to. I do know that stars fail, that's all that is needed to refute the claim in the passage you quote.
You remind me of a Pharisee asking for a mircle. Even if I knew the answer to your question I would be loath to tell you because I'm positive you wouldn't believe me, anyway. Some people are born to just, 'doubt themselves to death'. I've long thought that you are one of them. That seems oddly convenient. Are you admitting you don't have an answer or claiming you do have an answer but don't want to share it because you're opposed to enlightening others?

muscogee
04-21-2012, 19:40
The basic truths of the Bible are easy enough for a child to understand. Are you able to understand the following Example?

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Now do you understand? It is the heart of man that wants to turn every direction but to the light with all sorts of weird interpretations.

Do you understand the meaning of "example"? While you might like these verses, they aren't an example of anything. What point are you trying to make?

This may be an answer to something but it does not answer the question. Why can't God write a clear consistent explanation of what he expects. What does "believing in his name" mean? If that's all you need to do why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and give it to the poor if he wanted to get to Heaven? Do you also need to repent for your sins? Do you have to accept the all encompassing New Testament definition of sin? Do 14 year old boys have to do penance every time they lust in their hearts? Why does the Bible say"lust in your heart"? Shouldn't God know that lust is in the brain and all the heart does is pump blood?

I could go on like this for a long time but the point is, logically and rationally your God falls short in so many areas and you haven't even began to offer an explanation for that. I realize you're supposed to become as a child. That means don't think like an adult. That is not an answer.

TangoFoxtrot
04-22-2012, 08:00
We in society who are believers or non believers who think the earth is the "only" planet in the vastness of the galaxies that has intelligent life are arrogent to believe so.

Vic Hays
04-22-2012, 09:33
Do you understand the meaning of "example"? While you might like these verses, they aren't an example of anything. What point are you trying to make?

This may be an answer to something but it does not answer the question. Why can't God write a clear consistent explanation of what he expects. What does "believing in his name" mean? If that's all you need to do why did Jesus tell the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and give it to the poor if he wanted to get to Heaven? Do you also need to repent for your sins? Do you have to accept the all encompassing New Testament definition of sin? Do 14 year old boys have to do penance every time they lust in their hearts? Why does the Bible say"lust in your heart"? Shouldn't God know that lust is in the brain and all the heart does is pump blood?

I could go on like this for a long time but the point is, logically and rationally your God falls short in so many areas and you haven't even began to offer an explanation for that. I realize you're supposed to become as a child. That means don't think like an adult. That is not an answer.

Yes, you could go on like that. Doesn't prove you are authoritative enough to judge God.

muscogee
04-22-2012, 10:17
Yes, you could go on like that. Doesn't prove you are authoritative enough to judge God.

So do you have an answer to, Why can't God write a clear consistent explanation of what he expects.

Vic Hays
04-22-2012, 20:58
So do you have an answer to,

He has provided it in His Word. How is your reading comprehension?

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.

ArtificialGrape
04-22-2012, 21:05
He has provided it in His Word. How is your reading comprehension?
Then why are there hundreds of denominations of Christiamity? Do all the others lack the reading comprehension of the Seventh Day Adventists?

-ArtificialGrape

muscogee
04-23-2012, 03:35
He has provided it in His Word. How is your reading comprehension?

Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.

My reading comprehension is excellent and I have the credentials to prove it. Your ability to answer a question is less than excellent. You appear to just throw out any scripture that's on you mind at the moment and say that's the answer. But it never is. Your answers are frequently non sequiturs. Those answers only when preaching to the choir.

Would you like to quit dodging the issue and hiding behind indecipherable scriptures? Why is so much of the Bible gibberish? Does one have to be a Gnostic to understand it?

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 12:56
Then why are there hundreds of denominations of Christiamity? Do all the others lack the reading comprehension of the Seventh Day Adventists?

-ArtificialGrape

Men see what they want to see.

Spiritual eye salve is necessary for those who think they are rich (wise in their own eyes).

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 12:59
My reading comprehension is excellent and I have the credentials to prove it. Your ability to answer a question is less than excellent. You appear to just throw out any scripture that's on you mind at the moment and say that's the answer. But it never is. Your answers are frequently non sequiturs. Those answers only when preaching to the choir.

Would you like to quit dodging the issue and hiding behind indecipherable scriptures? Why is so much of the Bible gibberish? Does one have to be a Gnostic to understand it?

It was only a few words. Are they gibberish to you? You asked what God required of you. Did God ask something difficult for you?

Micah Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Gunhaver
04-23-2012, 13:16
Did you miss my answer?


The basic truths of the Bible are easy enough for a child to understand. Are you able to understand the following Example?

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Now do you understand? It is the heart of man that wants to turn every direction but to the light with all sorts of weird interpretations.

Miss it? No, I dismissed it as irrelevant ramblings full of bible verses as I do so many of your "answers".

The hearts of men turn away from the light with weird interpretations? Yeah. Finding out that the stars are actually suns like our own instead of a blanket with holes poked in it is such a weird interpretation.

muscogee
04-23-2012, 14:43
It was only a few words. Are they gibberish to you? You asked what God required of you. Did God ask something difficult for you?

Micah Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

God didn't communicate with me in any way.

ArtificialGrape
04-23-2012, 17:50
Men see what they want to see.

Spiritual eye salve is necessary for those who think they are rich (wise in their own eyes).

So you're able (willing) to see the truth, but those that see things differently from you are: seeing what they want to see; wrongfully think that they are wise; and, are in need of "spiritual eye salve"?

-ArtificialGrape

427
04-24-2012, 12:09
Men see what they want to see.

Spiritual eye salve is necessary for those who think they are rich (wise in their own eyes).

Revelation 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Vic let me ask you this again: So, if I share particular adventist christian beliefs, and ignore all other christian teachings that you all don't agree with, will I somehow be saved in the time of trouble and able to fight spiritual enemies, is that right? Your version of christianity is right and all others are wrong, is that right?

void *
04-29-2012, 11:13
why would God wast his time making more people in his likeness on other planets if he already has us?

This made me giggle a little. The idea that a mortal could know what motivation a deity had, the metaphorical assumption that such a deity would be bound by time, that a mortal could even think of all reasons and exclude them, etc.

I suppose mortals could think of a couple, though. I mean, I suppose it's possible, if this deity actually exists, that there are multiple beings created "in His image", and it's all some sort of grand experiment, with different species being told different things (which may or may not be true).

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 23:30
Vic let me ask you this again: So, if I share particular adventist christian beliefs, and ignore all other christian teachings that you all don't agree with, will I somehow be saved in the time of trouble and able to fight spiritual enemies, is that right? Your version of christianity is right and all others are wrong, is that right?

Are you planning on following Jesus the Word or are you going to experiment with sin and see how little you can do or believe to be saved? The fence belongs to satan as well.