Why is "faith" a good thing? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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IndianaMatt
04-19-2012, 12:19
Why do religious folks have a tendency to preach that having faith in god or gods is a virtue in itself, as if someone's unflinching "faith" is to be commended? "Ohhh, look, her faith is so strong!"

What is so admirable about accepting unquestionably the beliefs of your parents?

If you are going to commit your life to a set of beliefs (especially a doctrine that professes to have all the answers to everything), wouldn't a bit of fact-checking be in order?

Geko45
04-19-2012, 12:25
What is so admirable about accepting unquestionably the beliefs of your parents?

It's a crucial part of the system of social indoctriniation and intimidation that keeps most people entrapped in religion. It can't stand independent critical reasoning, so you must have a system in place that shames people who ask questions and praises those that follow with blind obedience.

Bren
04-19-2012, 13:22
Why do religious folks have a tendency to preach that having faith in god or gods is a virtue in itself, as if someone's unflinching "faith" is to be commended? "Ohhh, look, her faith is so strong!"

What is so admirable about accepting unquestionably the beliefs of your parents?

If you are going to commit your life to a set of beliefs (especially a doctrine that professes to have all the answers to everything), wouldn't a bit of fact-checking be in order?

I have asked the same many times. I've heard religious people claim, "you just need to have faith in something" but I've never heard them explain why. In fact, I've never heard them explain how that isn't contrary to their own religion, which claims you need to have faith in whatever that religion says is the "true" god. In the bit of Religulous I watched last weekend, Bill Maher asked that question to a group and it was the only thing he said, to that point in the movie, that made anybody visibly angry.

Bren
04-19-2012, 13:23
It's a crucial part of the system of social indoctriniation and intimidation that keeps most people entrapped in religion. It can't stand independent critical reasoning, so you must have a system in place that shames people who ask questions and praises those that follow with blind obedience.

That is the obvious answer to us, but it would be interesting if the religious members had an answer. I assume, when directly questioned on it, they will deny that christians say such a thing.

GreenDrake
04-19-2012, 13:39
Let "jesus take the wheel" and see how far faith gets ya. LOL I think faith is just a personal affirmation to make people feel like they are doing what the moral majority thinks is the right thing. The group dynamic of religion is another affirmation they indulge in, they get the "strength in numbers" warm and fuzzy and it gives them a sense of belonging and righteousness. Funny how their religions teach them to not judge yet they most definitely judge those who do not partake in the kool aid drinking and can think for themselves. they usually end up saying something corny like "I will pray for you".

JBnTX
04-19-2012, 13:41
You're not going to find the meaning of faith, or even understand it, on some atheist infested website forum.

Read the Bible.

If you have and still don't get it, well just remember not everyone is going to heaven.

Sorry!:sorry:

ArtificialGrape
04-19-2012, 13:44
"Faith" is nothing more than the license religious people give one another to keep believing when reasons fail. -Sam Harris

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason. -Benjamin Franklin

Paul7
04-19-2012, 13:44
What is so admirable about accepting unquestionably the beliefs of your parents?


Atheists are as likely to do that. Many Christians were not raised so but only believed after looking at the evidence.

IndianaMatt
04-19-2012, 13:58
Atheists are as likely to do that. Many Christians were not raised so but only believed after looking at the evidence.

What evidence? Noah's ark?

Bren
04-19-2012, 14:13
You're not going to find the meaning of faith, or even understand it, on some atheist infested website forum.

Read the Bible.

If you have and still don't get it, well just remember not everyone is going to heaven.

Sorry!:sorry:

So your answer is the christian equivilent of "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand.":rofl:

Paul7
04-19-2012, 17:08
What evidence? Noah's ark?

Here's a place you can start. I'm not going to repeat the book here.

Amazon.com: The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict Fully Updated To Answer The Questions Challenging Christians Today (0020049106884): Josh McDowell: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UHL%2BhHWdL.@@AMEPARAM@@51UHL%2BhHWdL

Snapper2
04-19-2012, 17:29
So your answer is the christian equivilent of "it's a black thing, you wouldn't understand.":rofl:
Faith is a product of hope. No hope=no faith. Doubt is a product of fear. Faith is not made up, it is imparted and built up. If my goal is to keep all my shots in the 10 ring at 25yds I need to practice. If while practicing I can do a couple of things. I can see my lack of skill and doubt enters. I have a fear that I cant reach the next level...I suck. I lower my standards. Or I can still see I suck but I'm determined to break through and practice more,more,more.This is hope and determination. When I do reach my goal I then have faith and confidence and skill ,doubt is removed and I know it can be done. Believing in God is easy. Faith comes by hearing His word. Doubt is even easier. Hearing words contrary to His word(and believing them). Or simply by doubting.

Geko45
04-19-2012, 17:59
That is the obvious answer to us, but it would be interesting if the religious members had an answer. I assume, when directly questioned on it, they will deny that christians say such a thing.

But wouldn't it be a refreshing change if one just came right out and said, "Yep, that's it. You hit the nail on the head."

Tilley
04-19-2012, 19:31
It can't stand independent critical reasoning, so you must have a system in place that shames people who ask questions and praises those that follow with blind obedience.

It is utter arrogance and stupidity for you to think you can understand something so far beyond your comprehension. And then to say if it can't stand human critical thinking, then it must be false.

As if man were just the smartest thing in this universe...


Newsflash: we aren't.

IndianaMatt
04-19-2012, 20:09
It is utter arrogance and stupidity for you to think you can understand something so far beyond your comprehension. And then to say if it can't stand human critical thinking, then it must be false.

As if man were just the smartest thing in this universe...


Newsflash: we aren't.

So your faith is in something that neither you nor anyone else understands or comprehends? What exactly is it that you have your faith in? The faith is in what you do not know. Religion is intimate knowledge of that which is unknowable.

I'll pass! The material world is too fascinating to just sit there passively watching it in that kind of narcotic mysticism. I have a more fulfilling evening reading my books on science and physics.

Geko45
04-19-2012, 20:09
It is utter arrogance and stupidity for you to think you can understand something so far beyond your comprehension.

Trust me, I've seen behind the curtain. There's nothing there. The sad truth is that we are the pinnacle of intelligence in the universe (barring an alien race I guess).

IndianaMatt
04-19-2012, 20:16
The sad truth is that we are the pinnacle of intelligence in the universe (barring an alien race I guess).

How can you say that we are the pinnacle of intelligence when, by one recent study, 67% of Americans believe in angels!!??


Surely there must be a smarter race than our own somewhere out in that vast universe!!

Geko45
04-19-2012, 20:38
How can you say that we are the pinnacle of intelligence when, by one recent study, 67% of Americans believe in angels!!??

That's why it's a sad truth...

Danny Reid
04-19-2012, 20:49
Don't be so quick to judge. I believe in leprechauns. I play golf with one, in fact:supergrin:

Vic Hays
04-19-2012, 20:57
Why do religious folks have a tendency to preach that having faith in god or gods is a virtue in itself, as if someone's unflinching "faith" is to be commended? "Ohhh, look, her faith is so strong!"

What is so admirable about accepting unquestionably the beliefs of your parents?

If you are going to commit your life to a set of beliefs (especially a doctrine that professes to have all the answers to everything), wouldn't a bit of fact-checking be in order?

Faith is like having hands to hold on to God's promises and words. There is a chapter in the Bible that gives examples of men and women of faith. It is Hebrews chapter 11.

Salvation is by grace because none of us deserve to be saved. That grace is appropriated by faith. Faith itself is a gift from God so that we still do not deserve anything even if we have great faith. God does not owe us anything for anything we have or do. It is only because of God's mercy and the sacrifice of Jesus that we can be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith has two components.
1. Believing God exists
2. Believing that God rewards those who diligently seek Him.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Danny Reid
04-19-2012, 21:10
It is utter arrogance and stupidity for you to think you can understand something so far beyond your comprehension. And then to say if it can't stand human critical thinking, then it must be false.

As if man were just the smartest thing in this universe...


Newsflash: we aren't.

Maybe not in the universe, but we are definitely the smartest thing on this particular rock. Do you seriously believe that a GOD as incalculably powerful as yours would have to be, in order to have created this vast universe and everything in it, would care that much about us? Not only are we not even a grain of sand on a beach, we aren't even a molecule of a grain of sand on a beach.

Paul7
04-19-2012, 21:10
How can you say that we are the pinnacle of intelligence when, by one recent study, 67% of Americans believe in angels!!??


Surely there must be a smarter race than our own somewhere out in that vast universe!!

Truly, "the Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing."

Tilley
04-19-2012, 21:33
Do you seriously believe that a GOD as incalculably powerful as yours would have to be, in order to have created this vast universe and everything in it, would care that much about us? Not only are we not even a grain of sand on a beach, we aren't even a molecule of a grain of sand on a beach.

I do. You sir, are a poet.
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee55/G19mm/TheDebtPaid.jpg

Syclone538
04-19-2012, 22:30
If I could change one thing about the discourse in this country, just one, it would be we would stop nodding approving people who say Im a person of faith. Because what are you nodding at, the guy who you know is a glib a****** for saying it in the first place, would even if he was a sincere ***h*** would be saying I hope you like the fact that Im willing to take an enormous amount of very important stuff completely on trust without any evidence of any kind. I say Im not going to admire that, I think that stinks. So, and Im afraid the Quakers are just as guilty for saying that faith is a good thing. Where in fact its the most overrated of the virtues if in fact it is a virtue at all.

Christopher Hitchens

yellowhand
04-19-2012, 22:43
G-d is real.
G-d is not real.
G-d might be real.
The three major choices, my POV, concerning faith in G-d.
I'm new to GT, read a lot, enjoy most of it, and post a little.
If someone believes in G-d, fine.
If someone does not believe in G-d,fine.
If someone is not sure about what they believe concerning G-d, fine as well.
I can't or won't try to make someone believe, people of my faith don't do that.
I've been reading threads like these where people without faith in G-d, I could be mistaken on that point, ask why those of us with faith why we have it, and I don't understand the interest.
If anyone could explain the motivation behind talking about people with faith by people without faith, I'm just somewhat curious about it all.
Where I worship, with my friends of faith, even those without faith, the discussion of people without faith has never been brought up.
It's a non issue.
Just curious.

Tommy Hanrahan
04-19-2012, 23:08
Newsflash: we aren't.

Not a newsflash: we are. Prove me wrong.

And

Faith is a product of fear and ignorance.

Syclone538
04-19-2012, 23:09
...
I've been reading threads like these where people without faith in G-d, I could be mistaken on that point, ask why those of us with faith why we have it, and I don't understand the interest.
If anyone could explain the motivation behind talking about people with faith by people without faith, I'm just somewhat curious about it all.
...

If the majority of the people on earth truly believed in Santa Claus, wouldn't you wonder why?

yellowhand
04-20-2012, 00:23
If the majority of the people on earth truly believed in Santa Claus, wouldn't you wonder why?

No not really. Why should I?
People are free in this country, at least today, to believe or not to believe whatever they wish to believe in.
It is why I spent 24 years on active duty.
I believe that "rap" music is crap.
I could care less about why so many people seem to enjoy rap music.
It's fine that they do, its fine that I believe its (rap) all crap.
People come in two flavors for me, decent and non decent.
Decent people mind their own buisness and leave others alone to do or not do, to believe or not believe, whatever they wish, so long as they harm no one or force their views upon others.
I don't believe in Santa.
I do enjoy Glocks.
With someone who does believe in Santa and Glocks, our common ground for discussion would be discussing Glocks, as in,
I just picked up my new Glock 32 ported this evening and the port cutouts are simply huge in the slide.
This goes back to decent people minding their own buisness, not being rude to others, and understanding its ok for others to believe as they wish in this country, at least today.
And no, I would never tell someone that the rap music they are listening too is crap. That would be rude.
I would just walk away from it and leave them to that which they like and care about.
If they wanted to go fishing with me and ride in my boat, I would ask that they not blast me with rap music, while in my boat. If they demanded their "right" to listen to their music, they can fish off the bank.
It's ok for people to believe in Santa, never heard that this action ever hurt anyone and kids/people in general seem to love it.
It's also ok for people like me not to believe in Santa, again, my non belief in the jolly old fellow harms no one.
Decent people, accept others and others beliefs, and for everyone else, well, its the reason most of us carry Glocks in the first place:supergrin:

Bren
04-20-2012, 05:08
If anyone could explain the motivation behind talking about people with faith by people without faith, I'm just somewhat curious about it all.
Where I worship, with my friends of faith, even those without faith, the discussion of people without faith has never been brought up.
It's a non issue.
Just curious.

So the religious response to the original post is to ignore it and yellowhand seems confiused by why people would discuss religious issues in the religion forum. This is going about how I expected.

Yellowhand, those who don't believe in religion are forced to live in a country that is dominated by it and their lives are somewhat governed by it, while the rest of the world is even more so. It's a natural topic to wonder about. If your religious friends never mention non-believers that seems pretty ususual - their bible certainly does.

Geko45
04-20-2012, 07:16
No not really. Why should I?
People are free in this country, at least today, to believe or not to believe whatever they wish to believe in.

That doesn't pass the smell test. If the majority of the people in this country genuinely believed in a little, fat, philanthropic, flying elf that dive bombs trinkets through chimneys once a year the world over then you wouldn't be looking around at your fellow humanity with a healthy dose of concern?

It is why I spent 24 years on active duty.

Thank you for your service. :patriot:

I believe that "rap" music is crap. I could care less about why so many people seem to enjoy rap music.

But I'm sure you are concerned with thug culture as a whole and what it is doing to our country. Am I wrong?

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 07:22
....
Yellowhand, those who don't believe in religion are forced to live in a country that is dominated by it and their lives are somewhat governed by it, while the rest of the world is even more so. It's a natural topic to wonder about. If your religious friends never mention non-believers that seems pretty ususual - their bible certainly does.


Very well said. I, for one, am tired of having religion crammed down my gullet in every public sphere.

Its a fortunate thing that, at least in western countries, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism is in decline.

The darkness and ignorance of religion is slowly dissipating, and I am optimistic about the future of mankind if this continues to be the case. Why continue under the yoke of a set of beliefs that have spawned so much murder, madness, and mayhem throughout history?

The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to survive.

Paul7
04-20-2012, 08:01
Very well said. I, for one, am tired of having religion crammed down my gullet in every public sphere.

Its a fortunate thing that, at least in western countries, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism is in decline.

The darkness and ignorance of religion is slowly dissipating, and I am optimistic about the future of mankind if this continues to be the case. Why continue under the yoke of a set of beliefs that have spawned so much murder, madness, and mayhem throughout history?

The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to survive.

Sorry to disappoint you, but there has never been a time in history when more people are coming to faith in Christ than today. China, for instance, is one of the largest Christian nations in the world, and Christianity is the majority religion in South Korea. The world is a lot bigger than the dying West.

How did that work out in the USSR when religion died?

CitizenOfDreams
04-20-2012, 08:12
How did that work out in the USSR when religion died?

How is it working for Russia now when churches pop up like mushrooms after the rain and priests are a part of the government?

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 08:43
G-d is real.
G-d is not real.
G-d might be real.
The three major choices, my POV, concerning faith in G-d.
I'm new to GT, read a lot, enjoy most of it, and post a little.
If someone believes in G-d, fine.
If someone does not believe in G-d,fine.
If someone is not sure about what they believe concerning G-d, fine as well.
I can't or won't try to make someone believe, people of my faith don't do that.
I've been reading threads like these where people without faith in G-d, I could be mistaken on that point, ask why those of us with faith why we have it, and I don't understand the interest.
If anyone could explain the motivation behind talking about people with faith by people without faith, I'm just somewhat curious about it all.
Where I worship, with my friends of faith, even those without faith, the discussion of people without faith has never been brought up.
It's a non issue.
Just curious.

My take on why people without faith wish to discuss faith is three fold.

1. There are people who sincerely wish to know if God really exists and has an interest in them.

2. There are people that realize that logically if God exists then they are accountable.

3. Some people are afraid that God might exist so they are seeking to discredit or silence those of faith to ease their own fears and relegate God to mythology.

My faith gives me purpose and a reason to live.

My faith gives order and purpose to all of creation.

My Savior says I am supposed to share with others the good things He has given to me.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 09:47
My ...
My Savior says I am supposed to share with others the good things He has given to me.
...

My reason tells me I am supposed to question that which others accept unquestionably. This is not something my parents told me I must do (like a child instructed to rote prayer, when he has no clue what is going on). This intuition is something I arrived at only after careful and difficult examination of the world. But, like all things in life, the valuable does not come easy.

It has been said that faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It is nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are our intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.

Paul7
04-20-2012, 09:51
How is it working for Russia now when churches pop up like mushrooms after the rain and priests are a part of the government?

Are the labor camps of the Gulag still operating?

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 09:54
Are the labor camps of the Gulag still operating?

Are the "faithful" still flying airplanes into buildings?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TOjDQoZCy6I/AAAAAAAAG-U/k3-k6rSVNsg/s1600/9-11%2Be.jpg

Paul7
04-20-2012, 09:57
My reason tells me I am supposed to question that which others accept unquestionably. This is not something my parents told me I must do (like a child instructed to rote prayer, when he has no clue what is going on).

Is that why you're an atheist, because someone told you to?

This intuition is something I arrived at only after careful and difficult examination of the world. But, like all things in life, the valuable does not come easy.

Exactly why many of us became Christians. You really need to stop the simplistic condescension.

It has been said that faith means making a virtue out of not thinking.

That is a really dumb definition of faith.

It is nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are our intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.

If I am responsible for the lunacy and destruction you mention, then you are responsible for the 100,000,000 victims of atheistic communism. My lunacy and destruction were done contrary to the teachings of Jesus, who harmed nobody. You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse.

Paul7
04-20-2012, 10:00
Are the "faithful" still flying airplanes into buildings?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TOjDQoZCy6I/AAAAAAAAG-U/k3-k6rSVNsg/s1600/9-11%2Be.jpg

Like you, I believe Islam to be a false religion. How is it I am answerable for it?

blk69stang
04-20-2012, 10:10
Faith is important because it helps people keep from becoming self-important a-holes. If you realize there is something out there greater than yourself, it is humbling. The opposite is also true, and Obama is living proof of how much of an arrogant a-hole you become when you think you are the greatest living being in existence.

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 10:22
Like you, I believe Islam to be a false religion. How is it I am answerable for it?

I'm agnostic; in my eyes, all religions are equally nonsensical.

What all religions have in common is that they all profess to know the unknowable.

I am not professing I know anything; on the contray: I do not know and neither do you.

You do not know because you do not possess powers of knowledge, perception, or intuition which I don't. We're equally ignorant of the grand scheme of life and death, its just that an agnostic is humble enough to admit it, while a religious person will persist that they "know," when clearly they do not.

yellowhand
04-20-2012, 10:25
Church and state should be separate and for the most part it is.
Those that believe are not to be forced to "hide" their faith and those that don't believe are not be forced to be around it concerning govt functioning.
Faith or non faith is a private matter, or should be in most cases.
The courts rule on that often.
People often ask me, if the Christian cross causes me any problems because it seems to be everywhere I look.
Short answer is no.
Why should it bother me?
It is the symbol of the Christians.
Religious freedom means true freedom, for both those that believe and those that don't.
Both have to be protected.
The system we have in place is far from perfect, but living in a world where there is no faith allowed/protected or a world where those that don't believe are forced to live under a faith based system is not one where I'd care to live.
People can find fault with anything and everyone if they look for it hard enough.
Santa, the jolly old fat guy, who flies thru the sky on December 24 and drops off goodies for many people in the world, left me a Glock 22 last year all wrapped up in pretty red paper.
I suspect, but one never knows for sure:)LOL that he was working in conjucntion with my Christian wife.
I could have found all kinds of fault with that happening, what with being a Jew, and caused all kinds of problems or,,,,::::
It sure is a nice 40 SW Glock 40.:cool:

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 10:30
Is that why you're an atheist, because someone told you to?

Exactly why many of us became Christians. You really need to stop the simplistic condescension.

That is a really dumb definition of faith.

If I am responsible for the lunacy and destruction you mention, then you are responsible for the 100,000,000 victims of atheistic communism. My lunacy and destruction were done contrary to the teachings of Jesus, who harmed nobody. You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse.

I am not an atheist; I am agnostic, thank you. There is a very big difference. You calling me atheist is like me calling you a Hindu.

I am not saying you are responsible for any lunacy or destruction. I am saying though, that some of the most insane acts ever committed in human history were done in the name of religion.

You keep pointing to Soviet communism as somehow supporting the fact that atheism must necessarily equal the brutality of the gulag.

The Soviet system was politically corrupt and rotten to its core. The Soviet government of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was more a band of organized criminals, than political operators. Its brutality had more to do with political repression than athistic enablement of killing.

IndianaMatt
04-20-2012, 10:30
duplicate deleted

CitizenOfDreams
04-20-2012, 15:10
Are the labor camps of the Gulag still operating?
Russian prison is still a very unpleasant place, but that has very little to do with religion or lack thereof.

And here is some funny statistics for you. The number of incarcerated Americans today (2.3 million) is not much different from the number of Soviet prisoners in the GULAG system in its worst year (1950, 2.6 million).

fgutie35
04-20-2012, 15:23
How can you say that we are the pinnacle of intelligence when, by one recent study, 67% of Americans believe in angels!!??


Surely there must be a smarter race than our own somewhere out in that vast universe!!

Are you implying you don't believe in Aliens? or is this a double standard thing of the likes of liberals?:cool:

Vic Hays
04-20-2012, 16:20
My reason tells me I am supposed to question that which others accept unquestionably. This is not something my parents told me I must do (like a child instructed to rote prayer, when he has no clue what is going on). This intuition is something I arrived at only after careful and difficult examination of the world. But, like all things in life, the valuable does not come easy.

It has been said that faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It is nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith and enable and elevate it are our intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction.

You have faith in that philosophy? I do not ascribe to "not thinking". If you choose not thinking and fantasy you are welcome to it.

Paul7
04-21-2012, 06:59
Russian prison is still a very unpleasant place, but that has very little to do with religion or lack thereof.

And here is some funny statistics for you. The number of incarcerated Americans today (2.3 million) is not much different from the number of Soviet prisoners in the GULAG system in its worst year (1950, 2.6 million).

Are those imprisoned Americans there due to having the 'wrong' political or religious views? Nobody is threatening to jail me for what I've said about Obama, thank goodness.

Paul7
04-21-2012, 07:03
I am not an atheist; I am agnostic, thank you.

Both will be toast on Judgement Day, unfortunately.

I am not saying you are responsible for any lunacy or destruction. I am saying though, that some of the most insane acts ever committed in human history were done in the name of religion.

Not true, atheistic Communism in it's short sick history has all religions beat numerically.

You keep pointing to Soviet communism as somehow supporting the fact that atheism must necessarily equal the brutality of the gulag.

You mean like you infer that 'insane acts' equal Christianity? Funny how you overlook the tremendous charitable good works of Christianity. I haven't seen any secular humanist orphanages lately.

The Soviet system was politically corrupt and rotten to its core. The Soviet government of the 50s, 60s, and 70s was more a band of organized criminals, than political operators. Its brutality had more to do with political repression than athistic enablement of killing.

That tends to happen when you have no transcendent moral standards.

Paul7
04-21-2012, 07:07
I'm agnostic; in my eyes, all religions are equally nonsensical.

Yes, I actually have a much more liberal view of other religions than you, you think what most men now and always have held most important is a delusion. I believe there is truth in other religions, but where they and Christianity differ, they are wrong.

What all religions have in common is that they all profess to know the unknowable.

I am not professing I know anything; on the contray: I do not know and neither do you.

OK, being agnostic you are at least honest enough to admit God may exist.

You do not know because you do not possess powers of knowledge, perception, or intuition which I don't. We're equally ignorant of the grand scheme of life and death, its just that an agnostic is humble enough to admit it, while a religious person will persist that they "know," when clearly they do not.

I believe God exists and is not silent, but has spoken to us through His Word, the Bible.

ksg0245
04-21-2012, 07:16
Here's a place you can start. I'm not going to repeat the book here.

Amazon.com: The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict Fully Updated To Answer The Questions Challenging Christians Today (0020049106884): Josh McDowell: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Demands-Questions-Challenging-Christians/dp/0785243631)

How about identifying the very best example in that book of evidence supporting the existence of the Christian deity?

Geko45
04-21-2012, 07:45
Here's a place you can start. I'm not going to repeat the book here.

Have you even read this book yourself?

steveksux
04-21-2012, 08:11
Why do religious folks have a tendency to preach that having faith in god or gods is a virtue in itself, as if someone's unflinching "faith" is to be commended? "Ohhh, look, her faith is so strong!"Simple. Because religion is so weak on the facts and evidence. Its the only way to turn that negative into a positive.

If whoever your particular magic man in the sky would smite a few people here and there, even just burn a few bushes to show people there are consequences to worshiping the competing magic men in the sky, they wouldn't have to rely on faith.

Randy

steveksux
04-21-2012, 08:20
It is utter arrogance and stupidity for you to think you can understand something so far beyond your comprehension. And then to say if it can't stand human critical thinking, then it must be false. So obviously the answer is to follow first century goat herders, cause they really understood that which is so far beyond our comprehension today.

Riiiiight! :rofl:

Randy

steveksux
04-21-2012, 08:23
Are the "faithful" still flying airplanes into buildings?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TOjDQoZCy6I/AAAAAAAAG-U/k3-k6rSVNsg/s1600/9-11%2Be.jpg
Prime example of faith without reason.

No need to be concerned...

Randy

Geko45
04-21-2012, 08:29
It is utter arrogance and stupidity for you to think you can understand something so far beyond your comprehension. And then to say if it can't stand human critical thinking, then it must be false.

So you admit that you don't understand it either?

Tilley, this is an old con and I'll explain to you how it works. The general goal is to convince the mark (you) that the issues being described are so complex that they are beyond thier comprehension. This is done to balance the fact that the dogma is, in actuality, completely nonsensical.

This is just an attempt to convince the mark that it is their intellect at fault and not the doctrine. This also opens them up for all sorts of other scams like tithing and high priced indoctrination materials and lessons to supposedly explain what the first book never made clear.

You are being used, by men, for their own purposes. Nothing more.