Government to mandate “black boxes” on passenger vehicles? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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glockman66
04-19-2012, 23:04
The democrats in the Senate proposing another "Mandate" to grab more control and power over the American People. They want to put a Black Box or a Event Data Recorder on all new cars that are sold after a certain date. More lib "big brother" legislation to run our lives.


http://hotair.com/archives/2012/04/19/government-to-mandate-black-boxes-on-passenger-vehicles/
Government to mandate “black boxes” on passenger vehicles?
posted at 11:06 am on April 19, 2012 by Ed Morrissey

Guss
04-19-2012, 23:39
It's rumored that some cars already have it. Manufacturers are said to put it in to help protect themselves from liability claims.

flyandscuba
04-19-2012, 23:42
Most new cars already have these - and have had them since about 2004...


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Restless28
04-20-2012, 05:51
Most new cars already have these - and have had them since about 2004...


Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Yep. Nothing to see here.

John Rambo
04-20-2012, 06:16
Yeah, already in place. Cars can't help but have black boxes. How else is the computer suppossed to tune your engine for you?

There's an alternative. Convert your car to carbeurated. Then you can go out a few times a year with a screwdriver and tune your carb for the weather. Also, you can kiss your fuel economy goodbye. But you wouldn't have any computers logging your actions! :wavey:

CitizenOfDreams
04-20-2012, 08:32
Yeah, already in place. Cars can't help but have black boxes. How else is the computer suppossed to tune your engine for you?

There is a difference between tuning ("pedal position 123 at 3456rpm should open the injectors for 78us for maximum performance") and logging ("at 12:34AM January 2nd 2012 the throttle pedal was at position 123, the speed was 93mph, the radio was tuned to 93.1Mhz").

lancesorbenson
04-20-2012, 08:49
Don't be surprised when these event data recorders start transmitting speeding violations to government computers that will automatically debit your bank account the fine. Big government types, especially liberals, have an animus toward private vehicles and long for the day our roads look like North Korea's. Driving is a privilege, or so we've been told, which means it can be restricted willy nilly if .gov sees fit.

eracer
04-20-2012, 09:01
I have one in my GMC truck. I couldn't care less. Unless I get in an accident and the data is used to validate my description of the incident.

TactiCool
04-20-2012, 14:00
These black boxes that people are talking about are connected to the supplemental restraint system (SRS). They log certain data perimeters during the events following an airbag deployment. They do not have the capability to transmit speed data and location. Now OnStar, on the other hand, could be used in this capacity becasue of its GPS capabilities.

fgutie35
04-20-2012, 14:16
People are getting a little paranoid here. The media is to blame, because they know as much as electronics as I know about Aramaic. The ECU in moder vehicles (OBDII) platform, collects data from various sensors. This data is processed and adjustments are made and converted into electrical signals to solenoids and servo motors to actuate valves to open or close different systems, like fuel, intake and exhaust flow. The data can be then stored or disposed of. In current setup, only the logs for out of parameter readings (error codes) are stored for later viewing. The bill will make auto makers, store ALL of the data for later viewing. The only thing, they can see, is variations on voltages and signals (only the data the sensors are able to send). Of course a PC can interpret this data to calculate for rate of speed and direction of vehicle seconds before an impact. I'm surpirse No one got their panties in a wad when GM came out with OnStar systems? Now that is something to worry about! (GM belongs to the Gov. and the system works tru satellite; get it!). Do you think they are going to let you know if the begin to do some spying on you?:shocked:

jtull7
04-20-2012, 18:15
Absurd. Don't believe everything you see on the Internet.

QNman
04-20-2012, 18:42
ALL new cars already have these - and have had them since about 2004... Many have had them sine the 1990's (American cars - Chevy - was first)

Fixed it for you...

All the fed.gov is doing is putting out standards for what data to record. I don't agree with the fed.gov interferring, but it isn't as nefarious as the article would have you believe..

QNman
04-20-2012, 18:44
Yeah, already in place. Cars can't help but have black boxes. How else is the computer suppossed to tune your engine for you?

There's an alternative. Convert your car to carbeurated. Then you can go out a few times a year with a screwdriver and tune your carb for the weather. Also, you can kiss your fuel economy goodbye. But you wouldn't have any computers logging your actions! :wavey:

No...

The event data recorder is the predictive logic for your airbags. Without them, you can't have airbags. The engine control module (ECM) does the functions you are describing, but most ECMs don't have an y storage ability - or at least don't store information that would be useful to the fed.

QNman
04-20-2012, 18:49
These black boxes that people are talking about are connected to the supplemental restraint system (SRS). They log certain data perimeters during the events following an airbag deployment. They do not have the capability to transmit speed data and location. Now OnStar, on the other hand, could be used in this capacity becasue of its GPS capabilities.

Close, but not exactly.... EDRs record data from BEFORE the accident. Not after. Again, it is a predictive device, not intended for much else.

Early models saved the data first for research, then for the fear from automakers that there would be claims (there were) that their airbags deployed in non-crash events, causing a crash.

JK-linux
04-20-2012, 18:59
.....

QNman
04-20-2012, 19:06
What a crock. If the want to record the dat, so be it. As long as I can legally disable it at no cost without presumed guilt and penalty (like declining a breathalyzer) in an accident, I don't care.

Then you better buy a car pre-airbag. Or buy an early 2000's Japanese (they denied their modules had this function until about 2006).

ETA: you CAN disable it (remove it), but you will no longer have airbags.

TactiCool
04-20-2012, 19:30
Close, but not exactly.... EDRs record data from BEFORE the accident. Not after. Again, it is a predictive device, not intended for much else.

Early models saved the data first for research, then for the fear from automakers that there would be claims (there were) that their airbags deployed in non-crash events, causing a crash.

Please note, I did not say after, but rather during the crash. But tell me, how does the device know to start recording before the crash has happened? The memory in those devices is very limited, and the only data that is logged is from a time frame of a few seconds.

F350
04-20-2012, 19:36
Ya know; you guys are all arguing about TODAY.....Especially of Obummer gets another term, what about TOMORROW!!!

.gov is real good at getting the camel's nose under the tent.

QNman
04-20-2012, 21:20
Please note, I did not say after, but rather during the crash. But tell me, how does the device know to start recording before the crash has happened? The memory in those devices is very limited, and the only data that is logged is from a time frame of a few seconds.

It is always recording in a loop. During an event, the last five seconds (typically) is written - "freezing" the predictive logic of the airbrbag deployment event.

An EDR is simply a flash of the previous five seconds or so of data. The predictive nature simply records the g-forces of deceleration of the vehicle. At a specific point, the system "wakes up", and once the critical point is reached, the airbag is deployed. Recording usually begins at the "wake up" event.

QNman
04-20-2012, 21:22
Ya know; you guys are all arguing about TODAY.....Especially of Obummer gets another term, what about TOMORROW!!!

.gov is real good at getting the camel's nose under the tent.

I'm one of the most "paranoid" members here. The data is in your car only until someone downloads it. I used to be one of the guys doing the downloading, and have been formally trained to do so. Though I never did this for the government.

CitizenOfDreams
04-20-2012, 21:54
The event data recorder is the predictive logic for your airbags. Without them, you can't have airbags.
To the best of my knowledge, at least in some cars airbags were activated by simple collision sensors, not by "predictive logic".

janice6
04-20-2012, 22:13
Wont be long before you car insurance rate is determined by your "Black Box".

Your "road tax" will be determined by your "Black Box".

Your "Fair Gas Tax rate" is determined by your "Black Box".

"Traffic Automated Control" will soon be sending you tickets for violations determined from your "Black Box", (with info from GPS) without the need for an officer observations (running lights, speeding, turn on red when prohibited, parking violations)

I'm not paranoid, just that these will now be easy to measure and tailor costs To the individuals behavior.

QNman
04-20-2012, 23:02
To the best of my knowledge, at least in some cars airbags were activated by simple collision sensors, not by "predictive logic".

This is a common misconception. By the time sensors detect the need to deploy, it is too late to be effective.

The sensors are part of the EDC.

QNman
04-20-2012, 23:03
Wont be long before you car insurance rate is determined by your "Black Box".

Your "road tax" will be determined by your "Black Box".

Your "Fair Gas Tax rate" is determined by your "Black Box".

"Traffic Automated Control" will soon be sending you tickets for violations determined from your "Black Box", (with info from GPS) without the need for an officer observations (running lights, speeding, turn on red when prohibited, parking violations)

I'm not paranoid, just that these will now be easy to measure and tailor costs To the individuals behavior.

I'm with you... But we're not there yet. The "black box" doesn't transmit yet.

Javelin
04-20-2012, 23:08
Wont be long before you car insurance rate is determined by your "Black Box".

Your "road tax" will be determined by your "Black Box".

Your "Fair Gas Tax rate" is determined by your "Black Box".

"Traffic Automated Control" will soon be sending you tickets for violations determined from your "Black Box", (with info from GPS) without the need for an officer observations (running lights, speeding, turn on red when prohibited, parking violations)

I'm not paranoid, just that these will now be easy to measure and tailor costs To the individuals behavior.

Exactly. These .gov folks need to get the hell out of my business and start minding their own business that they are failing so badly at.

:steamed:

janice6
04-20-2012, 23:10
I'm with you... But we're not there yet. The "black box" doesn't transmit yet.



Just have to add the requirement to have your car data updated in the next license fee period. Manually

CitizenOfDreams
04-21-2012, 00:43
This is a common misconception. By the time sensors detect the need to deploy, it is too late to be effective.

How do airbags get deployed during crash tests when the car slams into the barrier at full speed with no warning signs? Do the testers cheat by triggering the airbags remotely? If so, then how well do airbags perform in real life crashes when the driver does not make any attempts to avoid the obstacle?

QNman
04-21-2012, 08:08
How do airbags get deployed during crash tests when the car slams into the barrier at full speed with no warning signs? Do the testers cheat by triggering the airbags remotely? If so, then how well do airbags perform in real life crashes when the driver does not make any attempts to avoid the obstacle?

G-forces measured within the EDR. The "black box" is the sensor.

The moment the car comes into contact with the wall, the car begins to rapidly decelerate, causing the cabin to experience g-forces as they are all decelerated. This all happens in hundredths of a second. When a certain threshold is reached , the system records data for the last five seconds. If a second trigger, usually a greater g-force in deceleration, the airbag is deployed. With two stage bags, additional logic comes into play, such as weight of occupant and/or seat proximity to the airbags.

ETA: try this site. They are better at describing this than I could ever.

http://www.accidentreconstruction.com/research/edr/index.asp