Cosmic Conflict-The Origin of Evil [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Kingarthurhk
04-21-2012, 12:57
Cosmic Conflict - The Origin of Evil (AmazingFacts ©) - YouTube

SDGlock23
04-23-2012, 19:00
Interesting thread, surprised it hasn't got more attention. I haven't watched your included video yet.

Kingarthurhk
04-23-2012, 19:31
Yes, I included it for the folks who are always wanting to try to ascribe evil to God. I thought it was important to understand the actual author and continual perpetrator of evil is not God but Lucifer.

packsaddle
04-23-2012, 20:00
God created Lucifer.

God knew evil would arise.

God knew we would fall.

God sent Jesus.

Jesus rescued us from evil.

All is well.

ksg0245
04-23-2012, 20:12
Yes, I included it for the folks who are always wanting to try to ascribe evil to God. I thought it was important to understand the actual author and continual perpetrator of evil is not God but Lucifer.

You've misunderstood the argument.

Animal Mother
04-23-2012, 21:34
Yes, I included it for the folks who are always wanting to try to ascribe evil to God. I thought it was important to understand the actual author and continual perpetrator of evil is not God but Lucifer.Is Lucifer more powerful than God?

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 21:38
Is Lucifer more powerful than God?

he wants to be:

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Animal Mother
04-23-2012, 23:09
he wants to be:
Is wanting to be the same as being?

G23Gen4TX
04-23-2012, 23:29
OMG. That video is Gold, Jerry. Gold.

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 05:14
Is wanting to be the same as being?

Well, let's examine that. Hypothetically, say you are a king, and I am your subject. I decide I want to usurp your authority, so I go around fomenting rebellion.

Then I do everything in my power to commit regicide. I don't succeed, because your power and soldiers are too much for me.

I think that demonstrates the wanting vs being concept.

There is an intent, malice, a conspiracy, and a plan of action. Just because it fails, doesn't make it any less heinous or destructive.

Animal Mother
04-24-2012, 06:26
Well, let's examine that. Hypothetically, say you are a king, and I am your subject. I decide I want to usurp your authority, so I go around fomenting rebellion.

Then I do everything in my power to commit regicide. I don't succeed, because your power and soldiers are too much for me.

I think that demonstrates the wanting vs being concept.

There is an intent, malice, a conspiracy, and a plan of action. Just because it fails, doesn't make it any less heinous or destructive.We're not discussing position or intent, we're talking about power. God is supposed to be omnipotent. Is Lucifer also omnipotent?

Geko45
04-24-2012, 07:35
god, lucifer, jesus, holy ghost, angels, demons, etc... it's all so complicated. good thing it's a monothiestic religion or we would be in real trouble.

Geko45
04-24-2012, 07:47
Yes, I included it for the folks who are always wanting to try to ascribe evil to God. I thought it was important to understand the actual author and continual perpetrator of evil is not God but Lucifer.

Being omnipotent, god created lucifer out of nothing with the exact attributes he intended.
Being omniscient, god knew exactly what lucifer would do once created (e.g. introduce evil into creation).
Being infallible, god has a plan for creation that can not be circumvented.

Therefore, got created lucifer out of nothing exactly as intended knowing full well that he would introduce evil into creation and that this evil is actually an intentional and integral part of god's plan (whatever that plan happens to be). Any other conclusion requires one of those three attributes of god to be false.

Ergo, god is the source of all evil (or god is not really a god at all).

cowboywannabe
04-24-2012, 08:01
Being omnipotent, god created lucifer out of nothing with the exact attributes he intended.
Being omniscient, god knew exactly what lucifer would do once created (e.g. introduce evil into creation).
Being infallible, god has a plan for creation that can not be circumvented.

Therefore, got created lucifer exactly as intended knowing full well that he would introduce evil into creation and that this evil is actually an intentional and integral part of god's plan for creation. Any other conclusion requires one of those three attributes of god to be false. Er go, god is the source of all evil.

well said.

and all this time i thought it was Ming the Merciless that was the cosmic evil.

Gunhaver
04-24-2012, 08:19
OMG. That video is Gold, Jerry. Gold.

I know right? Normally I wouldn't suggest one of KA's videos but you have to see the first 3 min. of this one. They have light sabers!

Gunhaver
04-24-2012, 08:23
Being omnipotent, god created lucifer out of nothing with the exact attributes he intended.
Being omniscient, god knew exactly what lucifer would do once created (e.g. introduce evil into creation).
Being infallible, god has a plan for creation that can not be circumvented.

Therefore, got created lucifer out of nothing exactly as intended knowing full well that he would introduce evil into creation and that this evil is actually an intentional and integral part of god's plan for creation (whatever that plan happens to be). Any other conclusion requires one of those three attributes of god to be false.

Ergo, god is the source of all evil (or god is not really a god at all).

What you're forgetting is all the calls in the bible to kiss god's butt. You're not supposed to notice things like that. Happy thoughts are for god, bad thoughts are for the devil.

WS6
04-24-2012, 09:06
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm

Gunhaver
04-24-2012, 09:42
I'll see your 40 min video and raise you 2 40 min videos.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/the-root-of-all-evil/

G26S239
04-24-2012, 09:51
Yes, I included it for the folks who are always wanting to try to ascribe evil to God. I thought it was important to understand the actual author and continual perpetrator of evil is not God but Lucifer.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Geko45
04-24-2012, 10:55
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

Alright then, so god agrees with my logic.

WS6
04-24-2012, 11:01
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

And Aquinas rebuts with:

Reply to Objection 1. These passages refer to the evil of penalty, and not to the evil of fault.[Summa Theologica, Part 1, Question 49, Article 2. (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm#article2)]

Geko45
04-24-2012, 11:11
And Aquinas rebuts with:

Oh, thank goodness we have someone that can tell us what god really meant.

WS6
04-24-2012, 11:19
Oh, thank goodness we have someone that can tell us what god really meant.

Well, I certainly can't go to you. http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/images/smilies/xxrotflmao.gif

G26S239
04-24-2012, 11:38
And Aquinas rebuts with:

Oh. More with the "interpretation". :thumbsup: 6 days creation really wasn't 6 days. Trinity really isn't in the bible but it can be inferred. Rapture/rupture is not in the bible but must be true and now I know that Isaiah was FOS. :rofl: Too bad your god can't keep his story straight from one book to the next.

Here is another expedient interpretation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0

G26S239
04-24-2012, 11:38
Server hangup.

G26S239
04-24-2012, 11:44
.....

G26S239
04-24-2012, 11:50
Oh, thank goodness we have someone that can tell us what god really meant.
Really. No wonder there are so many sects of every major religion. If their CEO cannot even publish an unambiguous mission statement it is no wonder the followers get confused.

Bren
04-24-2012, 11:56
I watched a little of the video.

Looked like a lesson in how to claim that gray things are either black or white and the black ones are "not my fault.":rofl:

WS6
04-24-2012, 12:05
Chew on this awhile:

http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/king-aquinas.shtml

SDGlock23
04-24-2012, 19:30
Let me ask, can God be omniscient and free will still exist? Seems like a common thought that God knew Lucifer would rebel, and I agree...but with the difference that God knew Lucifer could rebel, as I think he had free will as to whether or not he would worship Adam, created in God's image. Since he didn't choose to, and instead wanted to place himself above the throne of Yahweh, in effect wanting place himself above the very image of God, he was so prideful. We all know he was kicked out of Heaven with the angels that CHOSE to follow him.

People will say that if somebody does something, you name it, that God knew that they would do it. But does that mean we still have free will? I maintain that we have 100% free will. Undoubtedly someone will say that if that's the case then God isn't omniscient. But He is, he knows all things. How can you have both? I've always thought that you can.

Trying to keep it short, and I know it's not the best description but say you have 1,000 doors with a different path behind each one. Say I choose door 227. Did God know I would choose that one? If I say no then does that mean He isn't omniscient? No. He knew I could choose 227, or 514, etc. because I have the freedom to make my own choice. He knows the result no matter which door I choose so He still knows everything, and I still have free will.

Why did I bring up free will? I think Lucifer chose to disobey God, and God knew it because He could knew Lucifer's intentions beforehand, after all God is omniscient, but I don't believe God made him do it.

But because Lucifer did, he and all who followed him have to face the consequences. God passed judgement on him and the rebel angels, and it wasn't good. They were cut off completely and cast out of Heaven and some into (created) hell. Some even chose to leave Heaven to prove to God they wouldn't fail as badly as Adam did...they failed worse and were cast into chains of darkness forever...again free will. God created them, and judged them, and created their punishment...and ours too should you reject Yahshua. In their rebellion they were given over to evil and it's them that cause all the troubles here on Earth, so when anyone want's to blame God, don't. Blame the Devil.

ArtificialGrape
04-24-2012, 19:52
Let me ask, can God be omniscient and free will still exist? Seems like a common thought that God knew Lucifer would rebel, and I agree...but with the difference that God knew Lucifer could rebel, as I think he had free will as to whether or not he would worship Adam, created in God's image. Since he didn't choose to, and instead wanted to place himself above the throne of Yahweh, in effect wanting place himself above the very image of God, he was so prideful. We all know he was kicked out of Heaven with the angels that CHOSE to follow him.

People will say that if somebody does something, you name it, that God knew that they would do it. But does that mean we still have free will? I maintain that we have 100% free will. Undoubtedly someone will say that if that's the case then God isn't omniscient. But He is, he knows all things. How can you have both? I've always thought that you can.

Trying to keep it short, and I know it's not the best description but say you have 1,000 doors with a different path behind each one. Say I choose door 227. Did God know I would choose that one? If I say no then does that mean He isn't omniscient? No. He knew I could choose 227, or 514, etc. because I have the freedom to make my own choice. He knows the result no matter which door I choose so He still knows everything, and I still have free will.

Why did I bring up free will? I think Lucifer chose to disobey God, and God knew it because He could knew Lucifer's intentions beforehand, after all God is omniscient, but I don't believe God made him do it.

But because Lucifer did, he and all who followed him have to face the consequences. God passed judgement on him and the rebel angels, and it wasn't good. They were cut off completely and cast out of Heaven and some into (created) hell. Some even chose to leave Heaven to prove to God they wouldn't fail as badly as Adam did...they failed worse and were cast into chains of darkness forever...again free will. God created them, and judged them, and created their punishment...and ours too should you reject Yahshua. In their rebellion they were given over to evil and it's them that cause all the troubles here on Earth, so when anyone want's to blame God, don't. Blame the Devil.
Perhaps you have to throw omniambivalent into the mix.

Omniscience mixed with prayer is like some time travel conundrum. Is it arrogant/conceited/naive to think that prayer will change the outcome of an event? Are you really changing God's mind? Not really given that He would have known if you were going to pray before you even thought about praying -- God already knew the outcome before you decided to pray.

Of course I am working under a huge assumption here.

-ArtificialGrape

427
04-24-2012, 20:42
I can do something that god can't/won't - I can forgive someone who has "sinned".

juggy4711
04-24-2012, 22:17
Yes, I included it for the folks who are always wanting to try to ascribe evil to God. I thought it was important to understand the actual author and continual perpetrator of evil is not God but Lucifer.

The reason Lucifer, Satan or whatever name you want to attribute exists is because God created it to tempt man to evil all according to God's design. So yeah God is the reason for evil. Or am I to believe that God was powerless to prevent Satan from being the "author and continual perpetrator of evil"?

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 23:00
I can do something that god can't/won't - I can forgive someone who has "sinned".

We are all sinners.

I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

user
04-29-2012, 17:25
What nonsense! "Hear, oh Israel, the Lord thy God, the Lord is One."

This crap originates in Pharisaic Judaism as a result of exposure to Zoroastrianism (a dualistic religion) during the Babylonian Captivity. But there is no "evil god". Take a look at Job: Satan is a member of the High Court of Heaven, and God's prosecutor with a job to do: "going to and fro throughout the Earth, testing the hearts of men." Satan is God's quality control manager.

A religious system that isolates "good" and "evil" has nothing to do with God. What it is, is "eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", or "acting on the basis of what I like and what I dislike". We call that which we like, "good", and we call that which we do not like, "evil". But God is One, and only God is the definition of "good" (Luke 18:18-19). Disasters, disease, and death are all "good"; it's my self-absorbed way of thinking about them that's "evil".

Anyone who tries to dodge his own personal tests in life by calling what happens to him, "evil", doesn't understand the nature of this life. This is an individualized curriculum for our education and improvement. The tests are designed to identify our deficiencies and help us recognize and eliminate them. The tests are good, not evil. If Satan can push your buttons, that's how you know the buttons are there. It's your opportunity to get your head straight, or allow the quality control manager to pull another defective unit off the assembly line.

By the way, about the "tests": the test is open-book, it's pass-fail, and if you flunk the first time, you can take it again, and again, and again...

Anyone who thinks Satan is "evil" and in opposition to God, really just doesn't want to have to survive the testing procedure. They don't like Satan for the same reason criminals don't like the local prosecutor. Buncha big babies, whining about what they don't like. Trying to live in a "magic kingdom" of their own making. Phooey.

kenpoprofessor
04-29-2012, 17:34
Being omnipotent, god created lucifer out of nothing with the exact attributes he intended.
Being omniscient, god knew exactly what lucifer would do once created (e.g. introduce evil into creation).
Being infallible, god has a plan for creation that can not be circumvented.

Therefore, got created lucifer out of nothing exactly as intended knowing full well that he would introduce evil into creation and that this evil is actually an intentional and integral part of god's plan (whatever that plan happens to be). Any other conclusion requires one of those three attributes of god to be false.

Ergo, god is the source of all evil (or god is not really a god at all).

Ah, the paradox of true logic.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

user
04-29-2012, 17:36
I can do something that god can't/won't - I can forgive someone who has "sinned".

Say, where'd you get that notion? What do you think the whole point of Jesus' mission was, except to tell us that Daddy isn't keeping track of our deficiencies? It isn't about sin, it's about love. I think you're confusing God with Santa Claus: he's the one who's "making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice", and the one who "sees you when you're sleeping; he knows when you're awake; he knows if you've been bad or good..."; see it's Santa that's doing domestic surveillance in order to determine who's been "good" and who's been "bad". Paul said that the crucifixion basically obliterated the book of our misdeeds, the journal of sin.

The need to forgive originates in the feeling of offense. And offense is a dignitary injury to the sense of self. One who is doing love doesn't need to protect a sense of self; one who can die to self daily, take up his cross, and follow Jesus, has no "self" to protect, hence no offense. In doing so, we learn to be like God, who doesn't take offense, because we can't offend him. Everything he does in based in his love for us, not a tally of our deficiencies.

I really wonder where that idea comes from.

kenpoprofessor
04-29-2012, 17:47
Say, where'd you get that notion? What do you think the whole point of Jesus' mission was, except to tell us that Daddy isn't keeping track of our deficiencies? It isn't about sin, it's about love. I think you're confusing God with Santa Claus: he's the one who's "making a list, checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty and nice", and the one who "sees you when you're sleeping; he knows when you're awake; he knows if you've been bad or good..."; see it's Santa that's doing domestic surveillance in order to determine who's been "good" and who's been "bad". Paul said that the crucifixion basically obliterated the book of our misdeeds, the journal of sin.

The need to forgive originates in the feeling of offense. And offense is a dignitary injury to the sense of self. One who is doing love doesn't need to protect a sense of self; one who can die to self daily, take up his cross, and follow Jesus, has no "self" to protect, hence no offense. In doing so, we learn to be like God, who doesn't take offense, because we can't offend him. Everything he does in based in his love for us, not a tally of our deficiencies.

I really wonder where that idea comes from.



If god so loved the world he would give his only beggotten son, then why did he create evil to watch him die?

You guys are killing me with the non logic.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

G26S239
04-29-2012, 18:26
Perhaps you have to throw omniambivalent into the mix.

Omniscience mixed with prayer is like some time travel conundrum. Is it arrogant/conceited/naive to think that prayer will change the outcome of an event? Are you really changing God's mind? Not really given that He would have known if you were going to pray before you even thought about praying -- God already knew the outcome before you decided to pray.

Of course I am working under a huge assumption here.

-ArtificialGrape
Great points AG. :thumbsup:

user
04-30-2012, 13:55
If god so loved the world he would give his only beggotten son, then why did he create evil to watch him die?

You guys are killing me with the non logic.

Have a great gun carryin' Kenpo day

Clyde

I get it ... you're talking about the "orthodox theology" of the cult of Rome. The Mithras/Hercules thing. The God from the fifth dimension comes "down" to Earth, has sex with a human girl, the result is a demigod superhero type who goes around righting wrongs and fighting injustice, but is caught by the "authorities" and allowed to be killed. But instead of staying dead, he gets up and goes off to join his God-father in the fifth dimension. Renamed "Christianity" when Theodosius made it a crime to be anything other than a "Christian". I don't think that mythopoeic structure really has anything to do with the "good vs. evil" thing.

The crucifixion wasn't about evil or sin; it was about love.

user
04-30-2012, 14:00
Perhaps you have to throw omniambivalent into the mix.

Omniscience mixed with prayer is like some time travel conundrum. Is it arrogant/conceited/naive to think that prayer will change the outcome of an event? Are you really changing God's mind? Not really given that He would have known if you were going to pray before you even thought about praying -- God already knew the outcome before you decided to pray.

Of course I am working under a huge assumption here.

-ArtificialGrape

I think so. And I think that the assumption is based on the perception of things within the scope of dimensionality. The whole time/space thing is a construct; the "Kingdom of Heaven" is transdimensional. Even saying things like, "God is one" doesn't make much sense where numeration means nothing. This is sort of like the shift in perception from the geocentric to heliocentric paradigm of planetary motion. That's all it is, though, a shift in perceptual framework. When your spiritual awareness transcends time and space, chronology and sequence mean nothing.

Firebob2917
04-30-2012, 17:20
Does evil have to created or is it the lack of good. God give us free will to do what we please. Man is an evil creature by nature, some choose to act it out but others choose not too. Again free will.

I hate to hear people say I'm spiritual, what does that mean? No church, Pastor, Deacon, etc can ensure your salvation. There is only one way and that Jesus Christ,accepting him as you savior and taking the FREE gift he came and died for!

I'm not perfect as a Christan but I am forgiven. And hey if all of this is wrong and I die and nothing happens, I have lived a good life but if you choose (free will) and you are wrong well enought said.