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FCoulter
05-10-2012, 19:54
this is getting hilarious.......you really believe that your little tiny group is the real remnant church and all others are apostate..:rofl::rofl:

I guess the real question here is, Why does it matter to you what Christ church is doing? Are you planning to repent?

rgregoryb
05-10-2012, 20:25
I guess the real question here is, Why does it matter to you what Christ church is doing? Are you planning to repent?

repent for what? hacking off an imaginary friend in the sky?

ImpeachObama
05-10-2012, 22:11
Other than the trinity, I can't think of any others.

FCoulter
05-11-2012, 04:42
Other than the trinity, I can't think of any others.

http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/id607.htm



In fact, in 1867 Ellen White foresaw the SDA church
becoming Catholic! (see Testimonies, vol 1, p 578). *And in the Adventist Review of March 5, 1981, on page 3, Neal Wilson states: "...there is another universal and truly catholic organization, the Seventh-day Adventist Church."

Kingarthurhk
05-11-2012, 05:14
http://www.lightministries.com/SDA/id607.htm



In fact, in 1867 Ellen White foresaw the SDA church
becoming Catholic! (see Testimonies, vol 1, p 578). *And in the Adventist Review of March 5, 1981, on page 3, Neal Wilson states: "...there is another universal and truly catholic organization, the Seventh-day Adventist Church."

http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/recovery/testimony/coulter2.htm


SOLA SCRIPTURA is an interesting thing, Fred, when you actually write your own bible.

ImpeachObama
05-11-2012, 06:27
Come on Fred, this seems a little out of character for you all of a sudden. You must have a lot of free time on your hands. Not good. Okay, your not casting stones, but large pebbles.

rgregoryb
05-11-2012, 07:05
Come on Fred, this seems a little out of character for you all of a sudden. You must have a lot of free time on your hands. Not good. Okay, your not casting stones, but large pebbles.

Fred sees a competitor for all that easy cash, bring them into the fold and then fleece them..........$$$$$

muscogee
05-11-2012, 07:07
this is getting hilarious.......you really believe that your little tiny group is the real remnant church and all others are apostate..:rofl::rofl:

If this is the same FCoulter, you ain't seen nothing yet. Of course, it may not be.

http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2012/03/fred-coulter-transhumans-to-rule-earth.html

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 07:46
Not one jot or tittle...

Who are you going to believe?

It's not spiritual. It's literal. It's as specific as it can get.
OK, then please respond to my post above:
So, you think that not one little thing in the law or the prophets can change? That's your infallible interpretation?

How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?

Vic Hays
05-11-2012, 08:51
Study your Bible for yourself, because you will be accountable for the Lord's will and no one can tell it straighter than God Himself.

God spoke His Ten Commandment covenant to Israel and wrote them on tables of stone.

The only thing else that was written by God was the handwriting of judgment of Babylon on the wall.

The Bible says to come out of that Babylonish confusion. Do you hear God's voice?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

Brasso
05-11-2012, 11:07
How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?

-Circumcision. Gone only in your mind.
-Divorce. Still allowed. Not looked favorably upon. Nothing has changed.
-Sacrificial System. Still alive and well, otherwise you have no savior. Levitical System is gone, but that was prophecied to disappear. Will there be sacrifice in the Kingdom? Yes
-The other laws are still in effect. It's your lack of historical knowledge that leads you to even bring it up. Tell me, will these things be allowed in the Kingdom? No

Brasso
05-11-2012, 11:12
The only thing else that was written by God was the handwriting of judgment of Babylon on the wall.


God doesn't have to write something Himself for it to be forever. Everthing He speaks is eternal. He has said so Himself many times. You're fixated on the wrong thing. The reason God wrote the 10 Commands is because only He can provide atonement. The is why the Tablets of the Testimony, go inside the Ark of the Testimony, which goes inside the Tabernacle of the Testimony. Which can only be approached with blood.

The same reason that the only way you can enter the Holy of Holies and approach God is because of Messiah's blood covering you. Messiah is the Testimony of the New Covenant, just as the Levitical Priesthood was the Testimony of the Mosaic Covenant.

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 11:30
-Circumcision. Gone only in your mind.
And in scripture. This is one of the things that makes the label of Judaiser correct.

-Divorce. Still allowed. Not looked favorably upon. Nothing has changed.
Seriously? You could argue that Jesus still allows it for adultry (although not exactly correct, but that's another discussion), but He most certainly removed the divorce provisions from Deuteronomy 24.

Jesus Himself (an authority that I respect more than Brasso's assumed authority :whistling:) said:
Mt 5:31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

... Thus He changed the law regarding divorce.

-Sacrificial System. Still alive and well, otherwise you have no savior. Levitical System is gone,
So, are you claiming that the levitical system wasn't part of the law? :dunno:

Or is this an admission that that part, at least, changed?

-The other laws are still in effect. It's your lack of historical knowledge that leads you to even bring it up.
Funny how you resort to insults when your beliefs are (successfully) challenged.

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 11:32
Study your Bible for yourself, because you will be accountable for the Lord's will and no one can tell it straighter than God Himself.
Oh, I certainly have and keep studying it. Probably more than you. And I keep finding, over and over, that your beliefs are wrong.

The Bible says to come out of that Babylonish confusion. Do you hear God's voice?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.
18:5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
That's why I follow the Authority that Jesus set up, rather than inventing a new man-made authority.

Brasso
05-11-2012, 13:27
So, are you claiming that the levitical system wasn't part of the law?

Good God! Have you finally figured that out?


Bert,


I could explain why you are wrong. I could tell you why the Scriptures don't say what you think they do. I can go back over everything you just posted above and prove you are full of it. Just as I've done hundreds of times before. But what's the point. Let's just leave at this. I follow the Bible. You follow the RCC. You're happy. I'm happy.

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 13:30
Bert,

I could explain why you are wrong.
Not convincingly, you couldn't.

I could tell you why the Scriptures don't say what you think they do. Just as I've done hundreds of times before.
Oh, you mean erroneously, and using faulty assertions? Yes, I know you could do it THAT way.

Vic Hays
05-11-2012, 14:56
That's why I follow the Authority that Jesus set up, rather than inventing a new man-made authority.

You think the Bible is a man made authority? :shocked:

The sacredness of Sunday appears nowhere in the Bible.

Sunday sacredness has been held up as an example of tradition that proves that man can modify or change God's Law.

Jesus was not in favor of traditions that were taught in place of God's holy Ten Commandments.

Mark 7:7 However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
7:9 And he said to them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

The council of Trent determined that tradition was above scripture:

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/the-council-of-trent.aspx
"Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the following argument to the party who held for Scripture alone: "The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants' claim, that they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false.

PROOF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they do truly hold the Scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church. Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails; and the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges.""

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 15:57
You think the Bible is a man made authority? :shocked:
Nope.

The sacredness of Sunday appears nowhere in the Bible.
You've yet to prove that everything necessary for faith needs to be in the Bible. :popcorn:

Sunday sacredness has been held up as an example of tradition that proves that man can modify or change God's Law.
Not by me it hasn't.

Jesus was not in favor of traditions that were taught in place of God's holy Ten Commandments.
Jesus was not in favor of traditions that were taught in place of God's word.

Mark 7:7 However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
7:9 And he said to them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.

Yet scripture also tells us, actually commands us, to follow Apostolic traditions:

1Co 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2Th 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

The council of Trent determined that tradition was above scripture:

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/the-council-of-trent.aspx
"Finally, after a long and intensive mental strain, the Archbishop of Reggio came into the council with substantially the following argument to the party who held for Scripture alone: "The Protestants claim to stand upon the written word only. They profess to hold the Scripture alone as the standard of faith. They justify their revolt by the plea that the Church has apostatized from the written word and follows tradition. Now the Protestants' claim, that they stand upon the written word only, is not true. Their profession of holding the Scripture alone as the standard of faith, is false.
PROOF: The written word explicitly enjoins the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath. They do not observe the seventh day, but reject it. If they do truly hold the Scripture alone as their standard, they would be observing the seventh day as is enjoined in the Scripture throughout. Yet they not only reject the observance of the Sabbath enjoined in the written word, but they have adopted and do practice the observance of Sunday, for which they have only the tradition of the Church. Consequently the claim of 'Scripture alone as the standard,' fails; and the doctrine of 'Scripture and tradition' as essential, is fully established, the Protestants themselves being judges.""
This archbishop's polemic has to be understood correctly, something you are not wont to do.

Just as the teaching of Jesus and the charism of the Holy Spirit working in the magisterium of the Church in Acts15 could show that circumcision (and indeed the old law) is no longer mandated under the Law of Christ, so too could the teaching of the Apostles through the Church show that the 7th day sabbath is no longer binding.

rgregoryb
05-11-2012, 16:19
If this is the same FCoulter, you ain't seen nothing yet. Of course, it may not be.

http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2012/03/fred-coulter-transhumans-to-rule-earth.html

That indeed is the one and only....when you get removed from the WWCOG for being too squirrely , you are certainly in the deep end of the pool

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EI3qy9SO7IA/T1aOnVP3vhI/AAAAAAAAD2I/eZuMrCTZuUE/s200/laserbaby.jpg

rgregoryb
05-11-2012, 16:30
delete

FCoulter
05-11-2012, 16:36
That indeed is the one and only....when you get removed from the WWCOG for being too squirrely , you are certainly in the deep end of the pool

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EI3qy9SO7IA/T1aOnVP3vhI/AAAAAAAAD2I/eZuMrCTZuUE/s200/laserbaby.jpg

Not removed resigned due to wcog's sinful ways.

If you would like the truth here is the resignation sermon given 1979.

http://www.cbcg.org/resignation.htm

FCoulter
05-11-2012, 16:58
http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/recovery/testimony/coulter2.htm


SOLA SCRIPTURA is an interesting thing, Fred, when you actually write your own bible.

God is the author of the Bible, The Holy Bible in its Orginal Order, is merely a modern translation. I bet you choose to use a modern translation like NIV, Am I correct?

Kingarthurhk
05-11-2012, 17:02
God is the author of the Bible, The Holy Bible in its Orginal Order, is merely a modern translation. I bet you choose to use a modern translation like NIV, Am I correct?

I don't use the Fred version with its new interpretation and reording of books.

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 17:06
I don't use the Fred version with its new interpretation and reording of books.
That "original order" description is really funny. :rofl:
I could see if he claimed chronological order or some such. But the "original order" was a bunch of independent scrolls.

FCoulter
05-11-2012, 17:41
I don't use the Fred version with its new interpretation and reording of books.

That's not what I asked, no wonder Bert tears you up so bad you don't read well. I asked if you use a modern translation,prob. The NIV version I would bet.

FCoulter
05-11-2012, 17:46
That "original order" description is really funny. :rofl:
I could see if he claimed chronological order or some such. But the "original order" was a bunch of independent scrolls.


http://www.centuryone.com/bible.html

Schabesbert
05-11-2012, 18:06
http://www.centuryone.com/bible.html
Interesting set of assertions there.
I was looking for some actual evidence, and as expected didn't find any. Oh, yeah, it's "apparent." :rofl:
"this marvelous and revealing series of connected subjects is made apparent"

I particularly liked the statement: "The total number of books in the "Old" and "New" Testaments is properly 49 not 66."

How do you know which books belong in the canon?
How do you know Hebrews is inspired?
How do you know Revelation is inspired?
How do you know Mark is inspired?
How do you know Philemon is inspired?
(etc.)

Kingarthurhk
05-11-2012, 18:48
This archbishop's polemic has to be understood correctly, something you are not wont to do.

Just as the teaching of Jesus and the charism of the Holy Spirit working in the magisterium of the Church in Acts15 could show that circumcision (and indeed the old law) is no longer mandated under the Law of Christ, so too could the teaching of the Apostles through the Church show that the 7th day sabbath is no longer binding.

You just said what the Archbishop said, only you said it differently. You just said that the Catholic Church has authority to change the moral law of God by its own tradition. How is that different than what he said? It isn't.

It is also an impossible thing to do. Which is why we qoute Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

The Catholic Church may think it can change the moral law of God, and change days from sundown to sundown from midnight to midnight. But, it can't set aside what God Himself has made.

Vic Hays
05-12-2012, 08:32
God doesn't have to write something Himself for it to be forever. Everthing He speaks is eternal. He has said so Himself many times. You're fixated on the wrong thing. The reason God wrote the 10 Commands is because only He can provide atonement. The is why the Tablets of the Testimony, go inside the Ark of the Testimony, which goes inside the Tabernacle of the Testimony. Which can only be approached with blood.

The same reason that the only way you can enter the Holy of Holies and approach God is because of Messiah's blood covering you. Messiah is the Testimony of the New Covenant, just as the Levitical Priesthood was the Testimony of the Mosaic Covenant.

There is no need of sacrifices now. Jesus fulfilled that.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah was to confirm the covenant for one week which is 7 years of literal time. Messiah was sacrificed after three and a half years directly in the middle of the prophetic week. Jesus disciples preached for another 3 1/3 years to the lost sheep of Israel and at the stoning of Steven the Gospel went to the Gentiles.

As far as heaven is concerned the sacrificial system ended at the cross.

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From now on expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
10:19 Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

It should be pretty obvious to any objective person that the ceremonial sacrificial system ended, but God's covenant of Ten Commandments has been elevated.

Those who say the Ten Commandments have been done away with don't like the idea of a Seventh-day Sabbath. They are still in rebellion against the Creator.

Brasso
05-12-2012, 17:34
It should be pretty obvious to any objective person that the ceremonial sacrificial system ended, but God's covenant of Ten Commandments has been elevated.

No, it isn't.

The patriarchs were making sacrifice long before Moses was born. The original covenant at Sinai (before the Levitical system was established due to sin) included sacrifice.

There will be sacrifice in the Millenial Kingdom (per Ezekiel).

There is more to sacrifice than sin offerings. There were 5 types of offerings. The sin offering was but one. You'll notice that in Ezekiels vision the one sacrifice that is missing is the Passover Lamb.

Kingarthurhk
05-12-2012, 17:48
No, it isn't.

The patriarchs were making sacrifice long before Moses was born. The original covenant at Sinai (before the Levitical system was established due to sin) included sacrifice.

There will be sacrifice in the Millenial Kingdom (per Ezekiel).

There is more to sacrifice than sin offerings. There were 5 types of offerings. The sin offering was but one. You'll notice that in Ezekiels vision the one sacrifice that is missing is the Passover Lamb.

Well, let's make this simple. How many times did Jesus die?

Vic Hays
05-12-2012, 23:00
No, it isn't.

The patriarchs were making sacrifice long before Moses was born. The original covenant at Sinai (before the Levitical system was established due to sin) included sacrifice.

There will be sacrifice in the Millenial Kingdom (per Ezekiel).

There is more to sacrifice than sin offerings. There were 5 types of offerings. The sin offering was but one. You'll notice that in Ezekiels vision the one sacrifice that is missing is the Passover Lamb.

Where is this offering according to Ezekiel?

Why would God require offerings under the New Covenant?

Hebrews 10:5 Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:
10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
10:7 Then said I, See, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do your will, O God.
10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither had pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
10:9 Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

FCoulter
05-13-2012, 03:24
Where is this offering according to Ezekiel?

Why would God require offerings under the New Covenant?

Hebrews 10:5 Why when he comes into the world, he said, Sacrifice and offering you would not, but a body have you prepared me:
10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you have had no pleasure.
10:7 Then said I, See, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do your will, O God.
10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin you would not, neither had pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
10:9 Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp191.htm

1911ES
05-13-2012, 03:53
Sabbath - Wikipedia, the free <WBR>encyclopedia (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAQUdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZnZoOHZsBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNF8yM jY-/SIG=11om2if41/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath)

Biblical... (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAQkdXNyoA/SIG=12daki4h2/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Biblical_tradition)|
Jewish tradition (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAQ0dXNyoA/SIG=12bchr8jc/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Jewish_tradition)|
Christian... (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAREdXNyoA/SIG=12ekmkb8l/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Christian_tradition)|
Other religious... (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsARUdXNyoA/SIG=12l3quut3/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Other_religious_traditions)

Sabbath or a sabbath is generally a weekly day of rest or time of worship observed in Abrahamic religions and other practices.

Vic Hays
05-13-2012, 08:00
Sabbath - Wikipedia, the free <WBR>encyclopedia (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAQUdXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZnZoOHZsBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1JDRjAzNF8yM jY-/SIG=11om2if41/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath)

Biblical... (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAQkdXNyoA/SIG=12daki4h2/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Biblical_tradition)|
Jewish tradition (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAQ0dXNyoA/SIG=12bchr8jc/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Jewish_tradition)|
Christian... (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsAREdXNyoA/SIG=12ekmkb8l/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Christian_tradition)|
Other religious... (http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPqg69PPlsARUdXNyoA/SIG=12l3quut3/EXP=1336931434/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath%23Other_religious_traditions)

Sabbath or a sabbath is generally a weekly day of rest or time of worship observed in Abrahamic religions and other practices.

From your Wiki source:

" Early church historians Sozomen and Socrates cite the seventh day as the Christian day of worship except for the Christians in Rome and Alexandria."

The Roman Church was very vigorous at bringing other groups under their control and destroying the records. However, from ancient times the Seventh-day Sabbath that the Creator calls His holy day was kept.

1911ES
05-13-2012, 10:17
Christian tradition

In Christianity, both those who observe the seventh day as Sabbath and those who observe the first day as Sabbath consider themselves "Sabbatarian" and regard Sabbath as "Lord's Day" (Greek: κυριακός), each group believing its position to be taught by the Bible; similarly for others who hold to strong Sabbath principles. For instance, "Kuriakos" (Revelation 1:10) is taken either as (first-day) weekday on which John was raptured in spirit, or as (seventh-day) millennial Sabbath unto which he was raptured. Similarly, the word "Sunday" is variously both disapproved, as recalling pagan sun worship on that day (Ezekiel 8:16-18), and approved, as an adopted token for Christ as "sun of righteousness" (Malachi 4:2). Many Christians affirm commonly that communal worship is not limited to Sabbath (Acts 2:45), and that "Sabbath was made for man", meaning all mankind (Mark 2:27).

"Good enough for me".... :supergrin:

Kingarthurhk
05-13-2012, 11:19
Christian tradition

In Christianity, both those who observe the seventh day as Sabbath and those who observe the first day as Sabbath consider themselves "Sabbatarian" and regard Sabbath as "Lord's Day" (Greek: κυριακός), each group believing its position to be taught by the Bible; similarly for others who hold to strong Sabbath principles. For instance, "Kuriakos" (Revelation 1:10) is taken either as (first-day) weekday on which John was raptured in spirit, or as (seventh-day) millennial Sabbath unto which he was raptured. Similarly, the word "Sunday" is variously both disapproved, as recalling pagan sun worship on that day (Ezekiel 8:16-18), and approved, as an adopted token for Christ as "sun of righteousness" (Malachi 4:2). Many Christians affirm commonly that communal worship is not limited to Sabbath (Acts 2:45), and that "Sabbath was made for man", meaning all mankind (Mark 2:27).

"Good enough for me".... :supergrin:


So, you keep the the Sabbath?

FCoulter
05-13-2012, 12:02
So, you keep the the Sabbath?

I don't think so. I believe they are saying everyday is could be the Sabbath and they think the Bible supports it....We know that is a false teaching.

Kingarthurhk
05-13-2012, 12:14
I don't think so. I believe they are saying everyday is could be the Sabbath and they think the Bible supports it....We know that is a false teaching.

Well, whatever he was saying was not very clear at all. However, the Bible from begining to end supports the seventh day as the Sabbath.

Vic Hays
05-13-2012, 15:58
Well, whatever he was saying was not very clear at all. However, the Bible from begining to end supports the seventh day as the Sabbath.

People say that such and such a day is their Sabbath. God says the Seventh day is His holy Sabbath day.

If their religion lets them tell God what to do I suppose they could be sincere calling any other day their sabbath. My God is much bigger than that.

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

rgregoryb
05-13-2012, 16:14
I don't think so. I believe they are saying everyday is could be the Sabbath and they think the Bible supports it....We know that is a false teaching.

Wouldn't it also depend on the exact "name" of the church you attend?
If you worshiped on Sunday at a "Church of God", you are not nearly as close to God as a person who worships on Saturday at a "Church of God" and by the way, with time zones and such is it really the sabbath here, when it is the sabbath in say Jerusalem? Also wouldn't the time differential over the past million of years throw the day count off?

FCoulter
05-13-2012, 18:02
Wouldn't it also depend on the exact "name" of the church you attend?
If you worshiped on Sunday at a "Church of God", you are not nearly as close to God as a person who worships on Saturday at a "Church of God" and by the way, with time zones and such is it really the sabbath here, when it is the sabbath in say Jerusalem? Also wouldn't the time differential over the past million of years throw the day count off?

Wow ever wonder why God was smart enough to begin a day at sunset and end a day a sunset. Man built the clock.

A sunworshipper ie. sunday keeper doesn't worship the God whom set the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them.

rgregoryb
05-13-2012, 18:24
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Re-Horakhty.svg/220px-Re-Horakhty.svg.png

Vic Hays
05-14-2012, 08:09
Yes Greg,

There has been sunworship since right after Noah's flood with Nimrod and the tower of Babel. The Egyptians as you found had a prominent sungod. he has the sun orb over his head.

The sun orb can be seen in the form of the halo over the head because this sun worship has been incorporated in to some forms of Christianity. This is called syncretism, a merging of religions. The sun was worshipped in ancient Rome and Sunday was an established holiday before Christianity arrived. Constantine made it a state holiday when he was in charge of the calendar.

The state church of the Roman Empire followed in the same path when they declared Sunday to be the substitute for the Seventh=day Sabbath a few decades later at one of their church councils.

http://biblelight.net/sunday.htm
"Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, "Let there be a firmament"; on the third, "Let the earth bring forth verdure"; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the "Lord's day," because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7

Note particularly, he says that "the same pope [Sylvester I] decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday]."8 According to this statement, he was the first bishop to introduce the idea that the divinely appointed rest of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the first day of the week. This is significant, especially in view of the fact that it was during Sylvester's pontificate that the emperor of Rome [Constantine] issued the first civil laws compelling men to rest from secular labor on Sunday, and that Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea, was the first theologian on record to present arguments, allegedly from the Scriptures, that Christ did transfer the rest of the Sabbath day to Sunday."

Schabesbert
05-14-2012, 17:05
Yes Greg,

There has been sunworship since right after Noah's flood with Nimrod and the tower of Babel. The Egyptians as you found had a prominent sungod. he has the sun orb over his head.

The sun orb can be seen in the form of the halo over the head because this sun worship has been incorporated in to some forms of Christianity. This is called syncretism, a merging of religions.
This is called BS, a form of dishonesty.

The sun was worshipped in ancient Rome and Sunday was an established holiday before Christianity arrived.
I'll note that you didn't provide any ... evidence ... for your assertion, Vic.

Constantine made it a state holiday when he was in charge of the calendar.
As opposed to having your feast on Saturn's Day?

The state church of the Roman Empire followed in the same path when they declared Sunday to be the substitute for the Seventh=day Sabbath a few decades later at one of their church councils.

http://biblelight.net/sunday.htm
"Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, "Let there be a firmament"; on the third, "Let the earth bring forth verdure"; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the "Lord's day," because on it the Lord rose [from the dead],
So, this pope wanted to remove the paganism from the names of the days. You object because ... ?


Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7
This, of course, ignores history and all the writings we have that show that Christians ALWAYS set aside the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, as that was the day that Jesus was resurrected.

Note particularly, he says that "the same pope [Sylvester I] decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday]."8
Yes, and note particularly that the "he" who said this was NOT some primary source, but:
Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity, by Robert L. Odom, © 1977 by the Review and Herald Publishing Association (An Adventist publishing house),

Wow, an Adventist that believes that the Sabbath was transferred in the 4th century, as opposed to what all of history teaches. Imagine that!

According to this statement, he was the first bishop to introduce the idea that the divinely appointed rest of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the first day of the week. This is significant, especially in view of the fact that it was during Sylvester's pontificate that the emperor of Rome [Constantine] issued the first civil laws compelling men to rest from secular labor on Sunday, and that Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea, was the first theologian on record to present arguments, allegedly from the Scriptures, that Christ did transfer the rest of the Sabbath day to Sunday."
:rofl:
Eusebius ... was the first. That's hilarious, Vic.
Nobody's buying this, except people who have already been drinking the kool-aid.

Vic Hays
05-14-2012, 17:40
This is called BS, a form of dishonesty.


I'll note that you didn't provide any ... evidence ... for your assertion, Vic.


As opposed to having your feast on Saturn's Day?


So, this pope wanted to remove the paganism from the names of the days. You object because ... ?



This, of course, ignores history and all the writings we have that show that Christians ALWAYS set aside the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, as that was the day that Jesus was resurrected.


Yes, and note particularly that the "he" who said this was NOT some primary source, but:
Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity, by Robert L. Odom, © 1977 by the Review and Herald Publishing Association (An Adventist publishing house),

Wow, an Adventist that believes that the Sabbath was transferred in the 4th century, as opposed to what all of history teaches. Imagine that!


:rofl:
Eusebius ... was the first. That's hilarious, Vic.
Nobody's buying this, except people who have already been drinking the kool-aid.

The only source you cited was in error. The "He who said this" was;

"Rabanus Maurus (776-856), abbot of Fulda and later archbishop of Mainz, Germany, was rated one of the greatest theologians of his age and probably the most cultured man of his time, and exceptionally learned in patristics. Besides, he was a zealous defender of the papacy and its teachings. In one of his works, he says,"

Come see me when you have something besides sarcasm and insults. :upeyes:

Schabesbert
05-14-2012, 18:02
The only source you cited was in error. The "He who said this" was;

"Rabanus Maurus (776-856), abbot of Fulda and later archbishop of Mainz, Germany, was rated one of the greatest theologians of his age and probably the most cultured man of his time, and exceptionally learned in patristics. Besides, he was a zealous defender of the papacy and its teachings. In one of his works, he says,"

Come see me when you have something besides sarcasm and insults. :upeyes:
That's funny, I noted that you didn't have a source for the things you said. Apparently you still don't.

Schabesbert
05-14-2012, 18:10
The sun orb can be seen in the form of the halo over the head because this sun worship has been incorporated in to some forms of Christianity.
Source?

The sun was worshipped in ancient Rome and Sunday was an established holiday before Christianity arrived.
Source?

Especially considering that, at the time Christianity arrived, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week)Rome didn't have a seven-day week at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar#Nundinal_cycle)!

Schabesbert
05-14-2012, 18:13
I don't think so. I believe they are saying everyday is could be the Sabbath and they think the Bible supports it....We know that is a false teaching.

http://www.centuryone.com/bible.html
Interesting set of assertions there.
I was looking for some actual evidence, and as expected didn't find any. Oh, yeah, it's "apparent." :rofl:
"this marvelous and revealing series of connected subjects is made apparent"

I particularly liked the statement: "The total number of books in the "Old" and "New" Testaments is properly 49 not 66."

How do you know which books belong in the canon?
How do you know Hebrews is inspired?
How do you know Revelation is inspired?
How do you know Mark is inspired?
How do you know Philemon is inspired?
(etc.)

Kingarthurhk
05-14-2012, 19:10
Source?


Source?

Especially considering that, at the time Christianity arrived, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Week)Rome didn't have a seven-day week at all (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_calendar#Nundinal_cycle)!

Actually, there are a great deal of pagan symbols used in Catholcism.

Roman Catholic Church Pagan Pt 1 - YouTube

Schabesbert
05-15-2012, 07:08
Actually, there are a great deal of pagan symbols used in Catholcism.

Yeah, it must be true if it's on Youtube. :rofl:
:faint:

List 3 and we'll discuss.
:upeyes:

FCoulter
05-15-2012, 08:01
Interesting set of assertions there.
I was looking for some actual evidence, and as expected didn't find any. Oh, yeah, it's "apparent." :rofl:


I particularly liked the statement: "The total number of books in the "Old" and "New" Testaments is properly 49 not 66."

How do you know which books belong in the canon?
How do you know Hebrews is inspired?
How do you know Revelation is inspired?
How do you know Mark is inspired?
How do you know Philemon is inspired?
(etc.)

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.03%20Canonization%20of%20OT%20Chapter%203.pdf

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.08%20Background%20to%20Canonization%20of%20NT%20Chapter%208.pdf

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.09%20When%20and%20By%20Whom%20Was%20the%20NT%20Canonized%20Chapter%209.pdf

Vic Hays
05-15-2012, 08:26
Most people probably do not understand the differeence between the Old and New Covenants.

The New Covenant, the Ten Commandments written on the heart, is based on better promises on God's part and better motives on our part.

The better promise is that God will write it on our hearts. The better motive is not obedience as in the Old Covenant.

Jesus spoke of the better motive for us to Covenant with Him and perform the Ten Commandments.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

FCoulter
05-15-2012, 09:03
Most people probably do not understand the differeence between the Old and New Covenants.

The New Covenant, the Ten Commandments written on the heart, is based on better promises on God's part and better motives on our part.

The better promise is that God will write it on our hearts. The better motive is not obedience as in the Old Covenant.

Jesus spoke of the better motive for us to Covenant with Him and perform the Ten Commandments.

John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Most dont understand that Jesus as the Word was the one Whom gave ALL the commandments new and old cov. For the Father.

Brasso
05-15-2012, 09:10
Most people probably do not understand the differeence between the Old and New Covenants.

The New Covenant, the Ten Commandments written on the heart, is based on better promises on God's part and better motives on our part.

The better promise is that God will write it on our hearts. The better motive is not obedience as in the Old Covenant.


Except that according to Jeremiah, the New Covenant is the TORAH written on our hearts. This includes a lot more than 10 commandments.

Schabesbert
05-15-2012, 10:37
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.03%20Canonization%20of%20OT%20Chapter%203.pdf

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.08%20Background%20to%20Canonization%20of%20NT%20Chapter%208.pdf

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.09%20When%20and%20By%20Whom%20Was%20the%20NT%20Canonized%20Chapter%209.pdf

Where the Bible Came From (http://www.mark-shea.com/bible.html)

According to Scripture (http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/according-to-scripture)

The Canon of Scripture and Salvation (http://www.catholicevangelism.org/h-canon1.shtml)

The Catholic Church Determined the Canon of Scripture (http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html#tradition-III)

Questions Protestants Can't Answer #8 - Who wrote the Gospel of Mark? How do you know?

Where We Got the Bible - Historical & Geographical Background (http://catholicaudio.blogspot.com/search?q=where+we+got+the+bible)

FCoulter
05-15-2012, 12:14
Except that according to Jeremiah, the New Covenant is the TORAH written on our hearts. This includes a lot more than 10 commandments.

I agree

FCoulter
05-15-2012, 12:20
Who wrote the gospel of Mark?

1-Peter 5:12: “By Silvanus... [He was the one who was to deliver this.] ...a faithful brother to you, as I reckon, I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand. The Church in Babylon, chosen together with you, greets you, as does Mark, my son” (vs 12-13). Mark was Peter’s secretary, and Mark was the cousin of Barnabas. Barnabas was a Levite, so Mark was a Levite. Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark, probably at the direction of Peter.


http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/Transcripts/How-Would-You-Preach-Christ-from-the-OT_01_01-14-12.pdf

Schabesbert
05-15-2012, 15:15
Who wrote the gospel of Mark?

1-Peter 5:12: “By Silvanus... [He was the one who was to deliver this.] ...a faithful brother to you, as I reckon, I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God in which you stand. The Church in Babylon, chosen together with you, greets you, as does Mark, my son” (vs 12-13). Mark was Peter’s secretary, and Mark was the cousin of Barnabas. Barnabas was a Levite, so Mark was a Levite. Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark, probably at the direction of Peter.

And you know this how, exactly?
:wavey:

Let me be more explicit for the slower readers:
How do you know that Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark?

Schabesbert
05-15-2012, 16:03
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.03%20Canonization%20of%20OT%20Chapter%203.pdf

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.08%20Background%20to%20Canonization%20of%20NT%20Chapter%208.pdf

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/InfoPack6/02.09%20When%20and%20By%20Whom%20Was%20the%20NT%20Canonized%20Chapter%209.pdf

"The task of writing and canonizing the prophetic New Testament Scriptures was so profound and extensive that Jesus Christ used only His selected apostles to write it—and of those, only Paul, Peter and John, His special eyewitnesses, were used to canonize those writings"

:rofl:

This author is exceptionally clueless.

"Only the apostles of Jesus Christ, whom God had specifically chosen for this task, wrote and canonized the New Testament."

So I guess Mark didn't write Mark. And Luke didn't write Luke.
Or did I miss their names in the list of the Apostles? :rofl:

Kingarthurhk
05-15-2012, 16:16
Yeah, it must be true if it's on Youtube. :rofl:
:faint:

List 3 and we'll discuss.
:upeyes:

Pick three from the video and let's look at them.

FCoulter
05-15-2012, 16:52
"The task of writing and canonizing the prophetic New Testament Scriptures was so profound and extensive that Jesus Christ used only His selected apostles to write it—and of those, only Paul, Peter and John, His special eyewitnesses, were used to canonize those writings"

:rofl:

This author is exceptionally clueless.

"Only the apostles of Jesus Christ, whom God had specifically chosen for this task, wrote and canonized the New Testament."

So I guess Mark didn't write Mark. And Luke didn't write Luke.
Or did I miss their names in the list of the Apostles? :rofl:


Mark was Peter’s secretary, and Mark was the cousin of Barnabas. Barnabas was a Levite, so Mark was a Levite. Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark, probably at the direction of Peter.

Bert think about what you quoted then read what you posted.

What you posted said Jesus used only paul,peter,and john to cannonize it. This is correct. It didnt say only those three wrote the new test.

Man typical catholic reasoning, messed up with half truths

rgregoryb
05-15-2012, 18:10
Then who was Q ?

Brasso
05-16-2012, 08:02
He was the omnipotent representative of the Continuum.

muscogee
05-16-2012, 09:49
Then who was Q ?

John de Lancie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_%28Star_Trek%29)

Schabesbert
05-16-2012, 10:12
Mark was Peter’s secretary, and Mark was the cousin of Barnabas. Barnabas was a Levite, so Mark was a Levite. Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark, probably at the direction of Peter.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?
Hint: It isn't contained in the scriptures. It must be from a source OUTSIDE of the scriptures, thus destroying the notion of sola scriptura. What might that source be?

Bert think about what you quoted then read what you posted.

What you posted said Jesus used only paul,peter,and john to cannonize it. This is correct. It didnt say only those three wrote the new test.
I thought about what the actual words said, not your incorrect paraphrase of it.

That's why I provided an actual quote, not a paraphrase like you did above. You do know the difference between an actual quote and a paraphrase, correct?

Man typical catholic reasoning, messed up with half truths
Silly me, looking at the actual words. I should just listen to the voices in your head, I guess.

Schabesbert
05-16-2012, 10:13
John de Lancie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_%28Star_Trek%29)

:rofl:

Ya beat me to it!! That came to mind for me, too!

rgregoryb
05-16-2012, 12:56
John de Lancie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_%28Star_Trek%29)

thanks! that clears up many questions I had................:dunno:

Vic Hays
05-17-2012, 08:23
[B]

Silly me, looking at the actual words. I should just listen to the voices in your head, I guess.

This is what you keep asking people to do in regards to the Sabbath and other Bible doctrines.

There is no apparent source for the change of Sabbath to a sacred Sunday except for philosophy and the voices in someone's head.

If the Bible is inspired it should surely tell us about this supposed change by Jesus or the Apostles.

All the Bible says is that God's Commandments do not change.

Schabesbert
05-17-2012, 08:42
This is what you keep asking people to do in regards to the Sabbath and other Bible doctrines.

There is no apparent source for the change of Sabbath to a sacred Sunday except for philosophy and the voices in someone's head.
You keep using the hidden premise that ALL instruction regarding faith HAS to be in scripture, even though this is a self-refuting, anti-biblical proposition. See post 268.

If the Bible is inspired it should surely tell us about this supposed change by Jesus or the Apostles.
Why? Can you prove this statement from the bible? If not, what does it say about your hidden premise?

All the Bible says is that God's Commandments do not change.
Then why didn't you address my post in this regard?
So, you think that not one little thing in the law or the prophets can change? That's your infallible interpretation?

How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?

Vic Hays
05-17-2012, 14:22
You keep using the hidden premise that ALL instruction regarding faith HAS to be in scripture, even though this is a self-refuting, anti-biblical proposition. See post 268.


Why? Can you prove this statement from the bible? If not, what does it say about your hidden premise?


Then why didn't you address my post in this regard?

Originally Posted by Schabesbert
So, you think that not one little thing in the law or the prophets can change? That's your infallible interpretation?

How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?



What is self refuting is that you use the Bible as an infallible guide to show that the Bible is not an infallible guide.

Those things were pointing toward a fulfillment which has come. The Bible points this out in several places.

None of those things are the Ten Commandment covenant that God both spoke and wrote Himself. He said it was His Sabbath.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shall you labor, and do all your work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD your God: in it you shall not do any work, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger that is within your gates:
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: why the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Schabesbert
05-17-2012, 15:14
What is self refuting is that you use the Bible as an infallible guide to show that the Bible is not an infallible guide.
First, we Catholics believe that the Bible IS infallible (well, almost -- the correct term is inerrant. A written text can't be infallible as it is not alive.).

So, how is that self-refuting?

Second, your belief IS self-refuting, and you still haven't addressed that!

Those things were pointing toward a fulfillment which has come. The Bible points this out in several places.
Fine. I agree.

But that puts the lie to your previous statement that "God's Commandments do not change."

You seem to be saying that the 10 commandments don't change, but the others can. But that's not what the Bible says, according to you. It doesn't stipulate a difference; YOU infer one.

Unless you meant that they don't change, but can be fulfilled, which again is the Catholic position.



None of those things are the Ten Commandment covenant that God both spoke and wrote Himself. He said it was His Sabbath.
Yes, and the Sabbath commandment has been fulfilled in Christ.
Now we are to celebrate the REDEMPTION, rather than celebrating the CREATION as the Israelites were commanded to do under the OT foreshadowing.


2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments, but he also showed the power of the Spirit at work in their letter. He preached a "righteousness [which] exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees"5 as well as that of the Gentiles.6 He unfolded all the demands of the Commandments. "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill.' . . . But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment."7
We are still bound to keep the 10 commandments, but in their fulfillment: murdering has been expanded to harboring and fomenting hate, coveting your neighbor's wife has been expanded to fomenting lust in your heart, and celebration of the REDEMPTION (the resurrection) has replaced the celebration of the creation.

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107
Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

Brasso
05-17-2012, 19:04
None of the above speculations, assertions, and conclusions can be found in the Bible. In fact, they contradict the Bible.

For those who care.

Colubrid
05-17-2012, 19:23
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this point was made yet.

The early church met on the first day of the week..which is sunday.

We should take the blueprints laid out for us in scripture on how to have church.

Kingarthurhk
05-17-2012, 19:55
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this point was made yet.

The early church met on the first day of the week..which is sunday.

We should take the blueprints laid out for us in scripture on how to have church.

Well, then you should be Roman Catholic. They claim to have the blue prints.

If you care about what God says, then you may want to look at the 10 Commandments, not just 9 of them, forgetting the only one that you are instructed to remember.

Vic Hays
05-17-2012, 20:28
I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know if this point was made yet.

The early church met on the first day of the week..which is sunday.

We should take the blueprints laid out for us in scripture on how to have church.

Have you read those blueprints lately for yourself? I believe that you are an honest person from your posts. Can you look at these texts objectively?

The first day of the week is mentioned 8 times in the New Testament. Not one of those times was it mentioned as replacing the Seventh-day Sabbath or being holy or as a day for the Church members to meet on.

Hiding behind closed doors does not make the first day holy.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the middle, and said to them, Peace be to you.

This next text is used to say that there is a church meeting and an offering being taken at that meeting. Read it carefully and you will find that there is no meeting on the First day of the week at all so it means that they did not consider Sunday to be sacred or holy or even a good day to meet on.

I Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of the week, let each one of you save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come.
16:3 When I arrive, I will send whoever you approve with letters to carry your gracious gift to Jerusalem.

ImpeachObama
05-20-2012, 04:57
The problem these days is the different translations of the bible. Most have been perverted by Satan's influence of the scholars.

Tynsdale's version (1530's) of the above scripture:
John 20:19
The same day at night, which was the morrow after the saboth day, when the doors were shut (where the disciples were assembled to gedder for fear of the jewes,) came Iesus and stood in the midst, and said to them: peace be with you.

1 Corinthians 16:2:
In some saboth day let every one of you put aside at home, and lay up whatsoever he thinketh meet, that there be no gatherings when I come.

My favorite example - Acts 20:7:
On a saboth day the disciples came to gedger for to break bread, and Paul preached unto them (ready to depart on the morrow) and continued the preaching unto midnight.

KJV uses the word "upon"(the first day) which is taken as approaching. But later translations just calls the time of the event "on" (the first day) which greatly changes meaning and scripture itself.

http://www.prca.org/books/portraits/tyndale.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

Brasso
05-20-2012, 06:23
Then of course, there is the entire rest of the Bible that tells us which day the Sabbath is and in which there is no commandment, prophecy, or hint of it's changing. There is the historical record that tells us the RCC changed it by whim. There are other writings that tell us the early kept the 7th Day. There are other passages that tell the Sabbath will be kept during the Millenium.


The only reason not to keep the 7th Day is this:

Rom 8:7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself to the Torah of Elohim, neither indeed is it able,

ImpeachObama
05-20-2012, 21:32
Brasso, you could also say that the reason for not wanting to keep the 7th day Sabbath would be like it has been said on Saturday night live long ago.....
..........Could it be Satan? (church lady skit back in the 90's?)

Tilley
05-23-2012, 22:36
Pastor Chuck Smith said today on his radio show "Pastor's Prospective" that Jews observe the sabbath while Christians observe Sunday.

Okay...I can live with that.

Vic Hays
05-23-2012, 23:02
Pastor Chuck Smith said today on his radio show "Pastor's Prospective" that Jews observe the sabbath while Christians observe Sunday.

Okay...I can live with that.

The Church is composed of Jews and Gentiles. They cannot be one unless they meet on the same day.

If your church is not composed of Jews and believing Gentiles it is not the same church as in the Bible.

Ephesians 2:11 Why remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
2:12 That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ.

2:14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of two one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Kingarthurhk
05-24-2012, 04:31
Pastor Chuck Smith said today on his radio show "Pastor's Prospective" that Jews observe the sabbath while Christians observe Sunday.

Okay...I can live with that.

Romans 11:17-24, "
<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>If some of the branches have been broken off, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28227AA))'></sup> and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28227AB))'></sup> and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28228AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28230AD))'></sup> Do not be arrogant, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28230AE))'></sup> but tremble. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28230AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>Consider therefore the kindness <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28232AG))'></sup> and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28232AH))'></sup> in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28232AI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28233AJ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28234AK))'></sup> how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

If you are not grafted in to the original then you have no place. If you have no place, that is a scary place to be.

Also, the Sabbath existed 2300 years before there was a Jew. Note Genesis 2:1-3 below. Also, note that this was observed long before the Lord wrote it with His own finger at Sinai.


Genesis 2:1-3, “<sup>1</sup> Thus theheavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<sup>2</sup> By the seventh day Godhad finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested fromall his work. <sup>3</sup> Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy,because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.”

Here we see the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment at the foundation of creationlong before Sinai, and even before sin entered the world.

Exodus 5:4-5, “<sup>4 </sup>Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” <sup>5 </sup>And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!”<o:p></o:p>

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup>Commandment observance.<o:p></o:p>

Exodus 16:4-5, “<sup>4</sup> Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. <sup>5</sup> On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “<sup>21</sup> Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. <sup>22</sup> On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1970b)<sup>]</sup> for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. <sup>23</sup> He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>24</sup> So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. <sup>25</sup>“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. <sup>26</sup> Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>27</sup> Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. <sup>28</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you<sup>[</sup><sup>c</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1976c)<sup>]</sup> refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? <sup>29</sup> Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” <sup>30</sup>So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment well beforeSinai.

rgregoryb
05-24-2012, 07:34
The Church is composed of Jews and Gentiles. They cannot be one unless they meet on the same day.

If your church is not composed of Jews and believing Gentiles it is not the same church as in the Bible.



are you serious?

Colossians 3:11

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,1 free; but Christ is all, and in all.

Vic Hays
05-24-2012, 07:54
are you serious?

Colossians 3:11

Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave,1 free; but Christ is all, and in all.


That is an excellent text to show that Circumcised Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles are one in Christ.

It does say "Christ is all and in all" does it not? This is the True Church. The True Church makes Jews and Gentiles brothers in Christ. We have always had Jewish members, but now we also have Jewish congregations with mostly Jews.

Monday Manna 028 - The Only Reason I'm an Adventist - Clifford Goldstein - YouTube
Jewish Adventist Community - YouTube

rgregoryb
05-24-2012, 08:13
If they are "in Christ" they are no longer Jewish or Gentile, and we talk about immigrants not wanting to assimilate....................

Vic Hays
05-24-2012, 11:13
If they are "in Christ" they are no longer Jewish or Gentile, and we talk about immigrants not wanting to assimilate....................

According to the Bible we are to remain in the state we are called. So I guess that would mean that all become spiritual Jews, however, as far as circumcision that is not the case and the circumcised Jew is still under the vow to perform those things from the Law of Moses.

I Corinthians 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.