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WS6
04-21-2012, 13:53
From another thread:

That isn't terribly suprising considering the Council of Nicaea occurred circa 325AD. The last Apostle was long dead by then. Further Emperor Constantine had already brought Apostasy and Pagan elements into the Church. [ ... ]

To what "Apostasy and Pagan elements" do you refer?

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/how-the-sabbath-was-changed.aspx

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath-history/sabbath-through-the-centuries.aspx

Sunday was the primary day of worship for Christians for nearly three centuries before Constantine. An excerpt from this article (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday):

Sabbath or Sunday?

Some religious organizations (Seventh-Day Adventists, Seventh-Day Baptists, and certain others) claim that Christians must not worship on Sunday but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They claim that, at some unnamed time after the apostolic age, the Church "changed" the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

However, passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Acts&chapno=20&startverse=7&endverse=), 1 Corinthians 16:2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=1+Corinthians&chapno=16&startverse=2&endverse=), Colossians 2:16-17 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Colossians&chapno=2&startverse=16&endverse=17), and Revelation 1:10 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Revelation&chapno=1&startverse=10&endverse=) indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lord’s day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Galatians&chapno=5&startverse=1&endverse=6)), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. The following quotations show that the first Christians understood this principle and gathered for worship on Sunday.

The Didache:

"But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned" (Didache (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm) 14 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas:

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" (Letter of Barnabas (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm) 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Ignatius of Antioch:

"[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e. Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death" (Letter to the Magnesians (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm) 9 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr:

"[W]e too would observe the fleshly circumcision, and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know for what reason they were enjoined [on] you—namely, on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your heart. . . . [H]ow is it, Trypho, that we would not observe those rites which do not harm us—I speak of fleshly circumcision and Sabbaths and feasts? . . . God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said, on account of your unrighteousness and that of your fathers . . ." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01282.htm) 18, 21 [A.D. 155]).

"But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead" (First Apology (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm) 67 [A.D. 155]).

ArtificialGrape
04-21-2012, 13:55
:popcorn:

Kingarthurhk
04-21-2012, 15:50
Genesis 2:1-2, "<sup>1</sup> Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
<sup id="en-NIV-33" class="versenum">2</sup> By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. <sup id="en-NIV-34" class="versenum">3</sup> Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

The Sabbath was established at creation as the sign of God's creative power. He blessed it and made it holy.

Before God descended upon Sinai and wrote the 10 commandments with his own hand as we see in:

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

The examples of God counseling to remember His Holy Day can be seen as follows:


Exodus 5:4-5, “<sup>4 </sup>Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” <sup>5 </sup>And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup>Commandment observance.<o:p></o:p>

Exodus 16:4-5, “<sup>4</sup> Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. <sup>5</sup> On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “<sup>21</sup> Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. <sup>22</sup> On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1970b)<sup>]</sup> for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. <sup>23</sup> He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>24</sup> So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. <sup>25</sup>“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. <sup>26</sup> Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>27</sup> Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. <sup>28</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you<sup>[</sup><sup>c</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1976c)<sup>]</sup> refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? <sup>29</sup> Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” <sup>30</sup>So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment well beforeSinai.

Spoken by God Himself as he descended on mount Sinai, and written by His very finger we find the 4th Commandment:

Exodus 20:8-11,"
<sup>8</sup>“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. <sup>9</sup> Six days you shalllabor and do all your work, <sup>10</sup> but the seventh day is a sabbath tothe LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your sonor daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor anyforeigner residing in your towns. <sup>11</sup> For in six days the LORD madethe heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested onthe seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

It is the only one of the 10 that God clearly said to REMEMBER. Further, He refers back to Genesis 2, where he made the Seventh Day Holy after creation.

What did Jesus have to say about the Sabbath?

Mark 2:23-27, "<sup>23</sup> One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. <sup id="en-NIV-24285" class="versenum">24</sup> The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

<sup id="en-NIV-24286" class="versenum">25</sup> He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? <sup id="en-NIV-24287" class="versenum">26</sup> In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” <sup id="en-NIV-24288" class="versenum">27</sup> Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-24289" class="versenum">28</sup> So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here we have learned two important things. The Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. Another, that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Thus, it is the Lord's Day.

Morever, there were no Jews when God made the 7th Day Holy at creation.

Jesus taught us how to keep it Holy:

Matthew 12:1-13, "<sup>1</sup> At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. <sup id="en-NIV-23492" class="versenum">2</sup> When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

<sup id="en-NIV-23493" class="versenum">3</sup> He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? <sup id="en-NIV-23494" class="versenum">4</sup> He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. <sup id="en-NIV-23495" class="versenum">5</sup> Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? <sup id="en-NIV-23496" class="versenum">6</sup> I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. <sup id="en-NIV-23497" class="versenum">7</sup> If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23497a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23497a)]</sup> you would not have condemned the innocent. <sup id="en-NIV-23498" class="versenum">8</sup> For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
<sup id="en-NIV-23499" class="versenum">9</sup> Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, <sup id="en-NIV-23500" class="versenum">10</sup> and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
<sup id="en-NIV-23501" class="versenum">11</sup> He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? <sup id="en-NIV-23502" class="versenum">12</sup> How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” <sup id="en-NIV-23503" class="versenum">13</sup> Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. <sup id="en-NIV-23504" class="versenum">14</sup> But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus."

Luke 6:6-10, "<sup>6</sup> On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. <sup id="en-NIV-25154" class="versenum">7</sup> The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-25155" class="versenum">8</sup> But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

<sup id="en-NIV-25156" class="versenum">9</sup> Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” <sup id="en-NIV-25157" class="versenum">10</sup> He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. <sup id="en-NIV-25158" class="versenum">11</sup> But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus."

Jesus referred to the end of time and gave this warning regarding the Sabbath:

Matthew 24:20, "<sup>20</sup> Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-23979" class="versenum">21</sup> For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

Further, Jesus kept the Sabbath regularly:
Luke 4:16-17, "<sup>16</sup> He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, <sup id="en-NIV-25081" class="versenum">17</sup> and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written"

The Apostles kept the Sabbath:
Acts 17:2-4, " As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, <sup id="en-NIV-27527" class="versenum">3</sup> explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. <sup id="en-NIV-27528" class="versenum">4</sup> Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women."

Acts 13:42-48, "<sup>42</sup> As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-27406" class="versenum">43</sup> When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

<sup id="en-NIV-27407" class="versenum">44</sup> On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. <sup id="en-NIV-27408" class="versenum">45</sup> When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
<sup id="en-NIV-27409" class="versenum">46</sup> Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. <sup id="en-NIV-27410" class="versenum">47</sup> For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410f)]</sup> a light for the Gentiles,
that you<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410g)]</sup> may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410h)]</sup>” <sup id="en-NIV-27411" class="versenum">48</sup> When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Here we Gentile converts keeping the Sabbath.

The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11.

God tells us that when the earth is made new again, everyone will worship Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:22-23, "<sup>22</sup> “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. <sup id="en-NIV-18946" class="versenum">23</sup> From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. "<sup id="en-NIV-18947" class="versenum"></sup>

WS6
04-21-2012, 15:54
Genesis 2:1-2, "<sup>1</sup> Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
<sup id="en-NIV-33" class="versenum">2</sup> By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. <sup id="en-NIV-34" class="versenum">3</sup> Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

The Sabbath was established at creation as the sign of God's creative power. He blessed it and made it holy.

Before God descended upon Sinai and wrote the 10 commandments with his own hand as we see in:

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

The examples of God counseling to remember His Holy Day can be seen as follows:


Exodus 5:4-5, “<sup>4 </sup>Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” <sup>5 </sup>And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup>Commandment observance.<o:p></o:p>

Exodus 16:4-5, “<sup>4</sup> Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. <sup>5</sup> On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “<sup>21</sup> Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. <sup>22</sup> On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1970b)<sup>]</sup> for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. <sup>23</sup> He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>24</sup> So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. <sup>25</sup>“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. <sup>26</sup> Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>27</sup> Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. <sup>28</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you<sup>[</sup><sup>c</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1976c)<sup>]</sup> refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? <sup>29</sup> Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” <sup>30</sup>So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment well beforeSinai.

Spoken by God Himself as he descended on mount Sinai, and written by His very finger we find the 4th Commandment:

Exodus 20:8-11,"
<sup>8</sup>“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. <sup>9</sup> Six days you shalllabor and do all your work, <sup>10</sup> but the seventh day is a sabbath tothe LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your sonor daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor anyforeigner residing in your towns. <sup>11</sup> For in six days the LORD madethe heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested onthe seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

It is the only one of the 10 that God clearly said to REMEMBER. Further, He refers back to Genesis 2, where he made the Seventh Day Holy after creation.

What did Jesus have to say about the Sabbath?

Mark 2:23-27, "<sup>23</sup> One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. <sup id="en-NIV-24285" class="versenum">24</sup> The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

<sup id="en-NIV-24286" class="versenum">25</sup> He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? <sup id="en-NIV-24287" class="versenum">26</sup> In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” <sup id="en-NIV-24288" class="versenum">27</sup> Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-24289" class="versenum">28</sup> So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here we have learned two important things. The Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. Another, that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Thus, it is the Lord's Day.

Morever, there were no Jews when God made the 7th Day Holy at creation.

Jesus taught us how to keep it Holy:

Matthew 12:1-13, "<sup>1</sup> At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. <sup id="en-NIV-23492" class="versenum">2</sup> When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

<sup id="en-NIV-23493" class="versenum">3</sup> He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? <sup id="en-NIV-23494" class="versenum">4</sup> He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. <sup id="en-NIV-23495" class="versenum">5</sup> Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? <sup id="en-NIV-23496" class="versenum">6</sup> I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. <sup id="en-NIV-23497" class="versenum">7</sup> If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23497a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23497a)]</sup> you would not have condemned the innocent. <sup id="en-NIV-23498" class="versenum">8</sup> For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
<sup id="en-NIV-23499" class="versenum">9</sup> Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, <sup id="en-NIV-23500" class="versenum">10</sup> and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
<sup id="en-NIV-23501" class="versenum">11</sup> He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? <sup id="en-NIV-23502" class="versenum">12</sup> How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” <sup id="en-NIV-23503" class="versenum">13</sup> Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. <sup id="en-NIV-23504" class="versenum">14</sup> But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus."

Luke 6:6-10, "<sup>6</sup> On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. <sup id="en-NIV-25154" class="versenum">7</sup> The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-25155" class="versenum">8</sup> But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

<sup id="en-NIV-25156" class="versenum">9</sup> Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” <sup id="en-NIV-25157" class="versenum">10</sup> He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. <sup id="en-NIV-25158" class="versenum">11</sup> But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus."

Jesus referred to the end of time and gave this warning regarding the Sabbath:

Matthew 24:20, "<sup>20</sup> Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-23979" class="versenum">21</sup> For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

Further, Jesus kept the Sabbath regularly:
Luke 4:16-17, "<sup>16</sup> He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, <sup id="en-NIV-25081" class="versenum">17</sup> and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written"

The Apostles kept the Sabbath:
Acts 17:2-4, " As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, <sup id="en-NIV-27527" class="versenum">3</sup> explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. <sup id="en-NIV-27528" class="versenum">4</sup> Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women."

Acts 13:42-48, "<sup>42</sup> As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-27406" class="versenum">43</sup> When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

<sup id="en-NIV-27407" class="versenum">44</sup> On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. <sup id="en-NIV-27408" class="versenum">45</sup> When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
<sup id="en-NIV-27409" class="versenum">46</sup> Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. <sup id="en-NIV-27410" class="versenum">47</sup> For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410f)]</sup> a light for the Gentiles,
that you<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410g)]</sup> may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410h)]</sup>” <sup id="en-NIV-27411" class="versenum">48</sup> When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Here we Gentile converts keeping the Sabbath.

The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11.

God tells us that when the earth is made new again, everyone will worship Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:22-23, "<sup>22</sup> “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. <sup id="en-NIV-18946" class="versenum">23</sup> From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. "<sup id="en-NIV-18947" class="versenum"></sup>






Were the second century Christians observing the Sabbath?

Kingarthurhk
04-21-2012, 16:15
Were the second century Christians observing the Sabbath?

Here is some historical background on that topic:


It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.[As I demonstrated above, with Jesus declaring Himself Lord of the Sabbath]

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.

WS6
04-21-2012, 16:19
Here is some historical background on that topic:


It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

Early Christians
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

Early Christians
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.[As I demonstrated above, with Jesus declaring Himself Lord of the Sabbath]

2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.

Please link me to your sources.

Vic Hays
04-21-2012, 17:27
Were the second century Christians observing the Sabbath?

Yes, second century Christians were observing the Sabbath. It was not until the fourth century after the Roman Emperor had made it a law to observe the "Day of the Sun" nothing to do with Christianity. The Roman state church followed suit by making it an offense to observe the Sabbath several decades later.

Here is what John Paul II wrote about it, you do consider him to be authoritative don't you:

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html

"64. For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work. "

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 17:09
Yes, second century Christians were observing the Sabbath. It was not until the fourth century after the Roman Emperor had made it a law to observe the "Day of the Sun" nothing to do with Christianity. The Roman state church followed suit by making it an offense to observe the Sabbath several decades later.

Here is what John Paul II wrote about it, you do consider him to be authoritative don't you:

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html

"64. For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work. "

I dont consider the pope to be authoritative to me, but I do consider that he has some historical knowledge.

When he says fourth century for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday by a church council it squares with what I understand from history.

WS6
04-23-2012, 17:25
I dont consider the pope to be authoritative to me, but I do consider that he has some historical knowledge.

When he says fourth century for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday by a church council it squares with what I understand from history.

I haven't forgotten you, Vic. Maybe tomorrow.

Schabesbert
04-23-2012, 17:35
I dont consider the pope to be authoritative to me, but I do consider that he has some historical knowledge.

When he says fourth century for the change of the Sabbath to Sunday by a church council it squares with what I understand from history.
Wow, Vic, are you purposefully trying to distort this? In a way, I hope so.
64. For several centuries, Christians observed Sunday simply as a day of worship, without being able to give it the specific meaning of Sabbath rest. Only in the fourth century did the civil law of the Roman Empire recognize the weekly recurrence, determining that on "the day of the sun" the judges, the people of the cities and the various trade corporations would not work. (107) Christians rejoiced to see thus removed the obstacles which until then had sometimes made observance of the Lord's Day heroic. They could now devote themselves to prayer in common without hindrance. (108)



What JPII was saying is that, until the 4th century, Christians were able to worship on Sunday, but were required to work. Observance of the Lord's Day, up until that time, required heroic efforts.

Your attempt to take it out of context is duly noted.

ImpeachObama
04-23-2012, 17:35
John, who wrote the book of Revelation kept the Sabbath. He certainly wasn't a Sunday keeper. He was a similar age to Jesus, writing this book in the AD 90's era and being close to the 90 or so himself. The Lords Day in Rev 1:10 was and is the 7th day Sabbath. If you can kill off all of the Apostles and followers, you can extinguish truth. However a small flame of truth has existed and made it thru time.

Perhaps a bible study on Lucifer would be good so to understand counterfeit worship and the various methods of getting mankind off of truth.

Schabesbert
04-23-2012, 18:17
John, who wrote the book of Revelation kept the Sabbath. He certainly wasn't a Sunday keeper. He was a similar age to Jesus, writing this book in the AD 90's era and being close to the 90 or so himself. The Lords Day in Rev 1:10 was and is the 7th day Sabbath. If you can kill off all of the Apostles and followers, you can extinguish truth. However a small flame of truth has existed and made it thru time.
No; rather, what's old is new again. The Judaisers have returned in the last couple of centuries.

Here's a good response from LORD'S DAY by James Kiefer (http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/LORDS-DA.HTM):
John, in the Book of Revelation, begins his account of his visions by writing (1:10):

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day....

Comment

Here John speaks of the Lord's Day. What does he mean by this? Some say that the term denotes no particular day, that every day is the Lord's day. But in that event, John's statement means only that he was in the Spirit, with no indication of when. Surely he mentions the Lord's Day with the intent that we shall understand which day he means, and surely he does so because the day is significant, because it is a particularly appropriate day for him to be in the Spirit, a day especially set aside for prayer and praise and rejoicing in the Spirit. Some say that he refers to the Sabbath. But in that event, why does he not simply call it the Sabbath? This would be clear, and it would be standard Jewish custom. It has never been the Jewish custom, in John's day or before or since, to call the Sabbath the Lord's day. However, as we shall see, Christians have consistently used the term to denote the first day of the week. Indeed, I venture to say that, whenever the term is used, and it is clear which day is meant, it is clear that the first day of the week, commonly called Sunday, is meant. Now someone may object that I am here appealing, not to the Holy Scriptures, but to the practice of the post New Testament Church, and that this is not a legitimate authority. To this I reply, that when we wish to know the meaning of any Greek or Hebrew word found in Holy Scripture, we do not hesitate to admit as evidence the use of that word in other authors of that time or shortly before or after. Consider (to take the first example that comes to hand) the words byssos and byssinos, which occur a total of six times in the New Testament, and are translated "(fine) linen". As far as I can see, there is no way to determine, simply by examining the words in their Scriptural context, that they refer to linen rather than, say, to silk. Yet no translator hesitates, because the meaning of the words is well known to us from numerous references in ancient, or for that matter not so ancient, Greek writings. I fail to see why we should not apply the same principle to determine the meaning of the expression, "The Lord's Day," determining its meaning as used by John by noting how other writers of Greek in that age and that corner of the world, and moreover of that faith, used it.

Let us now examine some early references to Christian practice.

Document

Pliny the Younger, governor of Bithynia, reported AD 112 to the Emperor Trajan on the growing sect of Christians and his efforts to suppress them. He says:

They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang an anthem to Christ as God, and bound themselves by a solemn oath not to commit any wicked deed, but to abstain from all fraud, theft, and adultery, never to break their word, or deny a trust when called on to honor it; after which it was their custom to separate, and then meet again to partake of food, but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.

Comment

The last clause refers to the popular rumor that Christians held cannibal feasts. The letter does not name the day of meeting, but a pre-dawn hymn to Christ would be most appropriate on the day of His resurrection.

Document

When Ignatius of Antioch was being shipped in chains from Antioch to Rome to be put to death there in the arena, he wrote letters to various Christian churches along the route, six of which have been preserved. (A seventh is to an individual, Polycarp of Smyrna, a disciple of the apostle John.) The date is given in most reference works as about 110 AD. Since the emperor was Trajan, the date would have to be 98-117 AD. In chapter 9 of his letter to the Magnesians, he writes:

We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope, so that they have given up keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead the day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death.

Comment

Here Ignatius speaks of the Lord's Day, and clearly means a day different from the Sabbath, and expects his readers to have no doubt which day he means, and no doubt that this is the day on which Christians worship. Either, at least in Antioch and in Asia Minor, there has been a complete change from Saturday observance to Sunday observance, or else there has been by about 110 a complete change from Saturday observance to XXX day observance, followed within the next 40 years (as we shall see) by a complete change from XXX day to Sunday. Absent any evidence for the double change, it seems probable that around AD 110 the Christians of Syria and Asia Minor observed Sunday, and certain that they did not observe Saturday.

Justin the Martyr, at that time residing in Rome, in his Apology (Defense of the Christians) addressed to the Emperor Antoninus Pius (AD 148-155), appeals to the emperor for a repeal of those laws that prescribe the death penalty for being a Christian. He describes Christian worship, assuring the emperor that the rumors of evil orgies are false. In chapter 67 he writes:

The day of the Sun is the day on which we all gather in a common meeting, because it is the first day, the day on which God, changing darkness and matter, created the world; and it is the day on which Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Kronos, and on the day after that of Kronos, which is the Day of the Sun, He appeared to His Apostles and disciples, and taught them these things which we have also submitted to you for your consideration.

Note: Kronos is the Greek equivalent of the Latin Saturn. Hence the day of Kronos and the day of the Sun are Saturday and Sunday respectively. For the history of the names of the days of the week, the relevance thereof to Bible study, and other matters, send the message, "GET GENESIS PART1 to LISTSERV@UCF1VM".

Comment

Here there is no doubt that Justin is saying that Christians meet regularly on the first day of the week, the day called Sunday, the anniversary of the Resurrection.

Document

Dionysius, Bishop of Corinth, wrote a letter between 166 and 174 AD to Soter, Bishop of Rome, fragments of which are preserved by the fourth-century historian Eusebius, including the following:

Today we have observed the Lord's holy day, in which we have read your letter.

Comment

Dionysius does not explicitly tell us which day he means by the Lord's day, but he is in touch with the Roman church, which (as we see from Justin) was accustomed, at least a few years earlier, to observe Sunday. Assuming a similarity of tradition between the two we have probable cause to suppose that the Romans, who we know observed Sunday, called it the Lord's Day, and that the Corinthians, who observed a day they called the Lord's Day, did so on Sunday.

Thus we see many reasons to suppose that the change from Saturday to Sunday as the day of the week particularly devoted to the glory of God, a change that has certainly occurred, was one that took place already in New Testament times, backed by the approval and example of Paul the Apostle and John the Revelator. Moreover, if this change did not have the approval of the Apostles, if they taught the early Christians to keep the Saturday Sabbath, we must account somehow for the fact that the change occurred, that it was universal, and that there is no trace whatsoever of any protest made against the change, or of any individual or group that refused to go along with the change. We find from a very early time disagreement on how to calculate the time at which Easter should be celebrated, with different calendars in use from the second to the fourth centuries, renewed differences in Britain lasting until the late seventh century, and still more differences beginning with the adoption of the Gregorian calendar in 1582. But never before the sixteenth century do we hear of any Christian group that did not require Gentile Christians to be circumcised but did require them to observe a Saturday Sabbath.

Having seen that the Scriptures point to the fact of such a change, and to Apostolic approval of such a change, do they give any sign of the reason for such a change?

One reason why such a change might be reckoned fitting is the difference between Law and Grace. Under the Law, where men are rewarded for good deeds and punished for bad ones, we work for six days and then are rewarded for our efforts by a day of rest at the end of the week. Under Grace, where our well-being is not earned but is a free gift of God, we are given spiritual food and drink on the first day of the week, and are blessed and filled with the Spirit of God, and this makes us so joyful and energetic that we rush out and spontaneously devote the remaining six days of the week to good works.

Having observed that the change from the seventh day to the first is in accordance with the general spirit of each of the Two Covenants, let us consider some explicit Scriptural references to the matter.

Kingarthurhk
04-23-2012, 19:30
We aren't Judiaziers, we are followers of Christ, as I pointed out, Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, which make the Sabbath the Lord's Day.

No ammount of Papist Encyclopedia can negate that.

But, I can see why you are clearly very wroth with us, as we are afterall, "heretics". Further, through scripture and by example we endeavor to honor God by obeying the Fourth Commandment.

Next, I can see why you are wroth, because as the Catholic Church has claimed by its own power and authority to command God and change His laws, we stand in clear opposition to its claimed authority.

Historical Accounts
Some of you may be greatly surprised by the explanation I’ve just made, and I’m not going to ask you to believe it blindly. I have before me a multitude of authorities to verify what has been said. Here are historians, Catholics and Protestants, speaking in harmony about what actually took place in the fourth century. After Constantine made the initial pronouncement and legal decree about the change, the Catholic Church reinforced that act in one church council after another. For this reason, many, many official statements from Catholic sources are made, claiming that the church made the change from Saturday to Sunday. But before I read those statements I shall refer to one from the Encyclopedia Britannica under the article, Sunday. Notice: “It was Constantine who first made a law for the proper observance of Sunday and who appointed that it should be regularly celebrated throughout the Roman empire.” Now you can check these statements in your own encyclopedias or go to the library and look into other historical sources.

Here is a statement from Dr. Gilbert Murray, M.A., D.Litt., LLD, FBA, Professor of Greek at Oxford University, who certainly had no ax to grind concerning Christian thought on the Sabbath question. He wrote: “Now since Mithras was the sun, the Unconquered, and the sun was the Royal Star, the religion looked for a king whom it could serve as a representative of Mithras upon earth. The Roman Emperor seemed to be clearly indicated as the true king. In sharp contrast to Christianity, Mithraism recognized Caesar as the bearer of divine grace. It had so much acceptance that it was able to impose on the Christian world its own sun-day in place of the Sabbath; its sun’s birthday, the 25th of December, as the birthday of Jesus.” History of Christianity in the Light of Modern Knowledge.

Looking a bit further into historical statements, Dr. William Frederick says: “The Gentiles were an idolatrous people who worshipped the sun, and Sunday was their most sacred day. Now in order to reach the people in this new field, it seems but natural as well as necessary to make Sunday the rest day of the church. At this time it was necessary for the church to either adopt the Gentile’s day or else have the Gentiles change their day. To change the Gentiles day would have been an offense and stumbling block to them. The church could naturally reach them better by keeping their day.” There it is, friends, a clear explanation by Dr. Frederick as to how this change happened. Another statement very parallel to this one is found in the North British Review.

But let’s move on to a statement from the Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, p. 153. “The church after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath or seventh-day of the week to the first, made the third commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord’s day.”

Catholicism Takes Credit for the Change
Now a quote from the Catholic Press newspaper in Sidney, Australia. “Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. From the beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”

The Catholic Mirror of September 23, 1894, puts it this way: “The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

To point up the claims we’re talking about, I want to read from two Catechisms. First, from the Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine by Reverend Peter Giermann. “Question: Which is the Sabbath day? Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day. Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church in the Council of Laodicea transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Second, from Reverend Steven Keenan’s Doctrinal Catechism we read this: “Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept? Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day; a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.”

Then from Cardinal Gibbons’ book, The Question Box, p.179, “If the Bible is the only guide for the Christian, then the Seventh-day Adventist is right in observing Saturday with the Jew. Is it not strange that those who make the Bible their only teacher should inconsistently follow in this matter the tradition of the Catholic Church?”

One more statement taken from the book, The Faith of Millions, p. 473. “But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn’t it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not from the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistency but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed. They have continued the custom even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text from the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.”


Daniel prophecies about the AntiChrist power when he states:

Daniel 7:25, "<sup>25</sup> He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21959b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+7&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21959b)]</sup> "

I can't think of any intstitution that fits that more clearly.

ImpeachObama
04-23-2012, 20:15
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9739/671document.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85/671document.jpg/)

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 21:22
What JPII was saying is that, until the 4th century, Christians were able to worship on Sunday, but were required to work. Observance of the Lord's Day, up until that time, required heroic efforts.

Your attempt to take it out of context is duly noted.

To be a real Christian, yes, that required heroic efforts in the pagan Roman Empire.

To observe a day that the pagan Romans thought proper to worship the Sun and gave it that name did not require heroic efforts.

There have always been Sabbath keepers as John Paul II attests in his paper. The day among some Christians began to lose its significance and Sunday was substituted in its place. It was not by divine command that Sunday was substituted for the Sabbath
Does God accept substitutions? He wasn't too happy about Cains substitution was He?


http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html
"Therefore, if God "sanctifies" the seventh day with a special blessing and makes it "his day" par excellence, this must be understood within the deep dynamic of the dialogue of the Covenant, indeed the dialogue of "marriage". This is the dialogue of love which knows no interruption, yet is never monotonous. In fact, it employs the different registers of love, from the ordinary and indirect to those more intense, which the words of Scripture and the witness of so many mystics do not hesitate to describe in imagery drawn from the experience of married love."

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html
"23. It was this newness which the catechesis of the first centuries stressed as it sought to show the prominence of Sunday relative to the Jewish Sabbath. It was on the Sabbath that the Jewish people had to gather in the synagogue and to rest in the way prescribed by the Law. The Apostles, and in particular Saint Paul, continued initially to attend the synagogue so that there they might proclaim Jesus Christ, commenting upon "the words of the prophets which are read every Sabbath" (Acts 13:27). Some communities observed the Sabbath while also celebrating Sunday. "

http://www.cin.org/jp2/diesdomi.html
"The distinction of Sunday from the Jewish Sabbath grew ever stronger in the mind of the Church, even though there have been times in history when, because the obligation of Sunday rest was so emphasized, the Lord's Day tended to become more like the Sabbath. Moreover, there have always been groups within Christianity which observe both the Sabbath and Sunday as "two brother days".(23)

ArtificialGrape
04-23-2012, 21:34
To be a real Christian, yes, that required heroic efforts in the pagan Roman Empire.

To observe a day that the pagan Romans was proper to worship the Sun did not require heroic efforts.

There have always been Sabbath keepers as John Paul II attests in his paper. The day among some Christians began to lose its significance and Sunday was substituted in its place.
Does God accept substitutions? He wasn't too happy about Cains substitution was He?

So, what's the bottom line? Does the same fate await the Sunday crowd as awaits thieves and murderers?

-ArtificialGrape

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 21:45
So, what's the bottom line? Does the same fate await the Sunday crowd as awaits thieves and murderers?

-ArtificialGrape

One of the great things about God is that He judges the motives and intentions. He knows those that are His. There is no pretending or hiding from Him. He will forgive all sins except for rebellion against the Holy Spirit. He would forgive that except it would make the New Earth the same cesspool as the present world. The Holy Spirit will lead into all Truth.

II Timothy 2:19 Yet the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, [The] Lord knows those that are his; and, Let every one who names the name of [the] Lord withdraw from iniquity.

creaky
04-23-2012, 21:45
We aren't Judiaziers,

Yes, you are.

Daniel prophecies about the AntiChrist power when he states:

Daniel 7:25, "<sup>25</sup> He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21959b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+7&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21959b)]</sup> "

I can't think of any intstitution that fits that more clearly.

So Brasso-esque.

Vic Hays
04-23-2012, 21:51
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9739/671document.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85/671document.jpg/)

I always thought it strange that people could not tell the last day of the week from the first day of the week which is actually opposite what God asked for.

lucifer was probably created on the first day of creation week.
lucifer means light bearer. The first day God said, "Let there be light."

ArtificialGrape
04-23-2012, 22:02
One of the great things about God is that He judges the motives and intentions. He knows those that are His. There is no pretending or hiding from Him. He will forgive all sins except for rebellion against the Holy Spirit.
So big picture seems to be that it really doesn't matter -- pick a day and be excellent to each other.

As for me, I'm going to keep mowing my front yard on Saturday and the back yard on Sunday, just to be sure. :cool:

-ArtificialGrape

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 05:08
Yes, you are.



So Brasso-esque.

So, whose authority do you accept, the day that God made Holy at Creation, that was kept as a memorial to that prior of God descending on Mount Sinai, where He spoke this Law and wrote it with His own finger commanding us to remember the day He made Holy at Creation, the one Jesus declared He was Lord over and kept Holy, the one the Apostles have been demonstrated to keep Holy?

Or, that of a system of Apostasy and Paganism that declares that its priests have the same creative power as God Himself, by commanding Jesus come down bodily to be turned into bread and wine, that claim to have the same power as God to forgive men of all their sins, that changed sundown to sundown from midnight to midnight, and claims by its own authority to change the Law of God as it sees fit?

I know what my answer is. Calling me a Judiazer doesn't change my position.

He who claims to have more authority than Christ is an Antichrist.

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 09:07
So big picture seems to be that it really doesn't matter -- pick a day and be excellent to each other.

As for me, I'm going to keep mowing my front yard on Saturday and the back yard on Sunday, just to be sure. :cool:

-ArtificialGrape

Something you are not understanding here is that this issue involves two different faiths. While we may both be called Christian, the Protestant side took the Bible as the Word of God to be their source of authority and the Catholic side took the Church to be their source of authority as the Word of God.

I believe that the issue matters very much to God as the Sabbath is the sign of the covenant that God made with man.

And you are correct. Salvation is by grace alone through faith. If your faith is not in God you are just as lost even if you observe any day.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Roering
04-24-2012, 10:10
be excellent to each other.
-ArtificialGrape

Pretty Much. A Sabbath has different meanings. Most importantly it means rest. A Sabbath Day is a day of rest. For a faith community it makes sense to have it on the same day though for organizational purposes.

Oh and for good measure.....
http://cdn2.screenjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/billandted460.jpg

Roering
04-24-2012, 10:12
the Catholic side took the Church to be their source of authority as the Word of God.


Wrong.

Schabesbert
04-24-2012, 10:30
Something you are not understanding here is that this issue involves two different faiths. While we may both be called Christian, the Protestant side took the Bible as the Word of God to be their source of authority and the Catholic side took the Church to be their source of authority as the Word of God.
Vic continually misrepresents the beliefs of the Church. Since he has been corrected so often, and I believe him to be of sound mind, I can only conclude that he is distorting on purpose.

The Church has ONE "source of Authority" -- the Lord, Jesus Christ.

He, being the source, has endowed His Church with certain Authority. This is witnessed to by the scriptures, which are also authoritative in that they rightly convey what He has taught, either in person or through the Holy Spirit.

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 10:31
Wrong.

Please explain your source of authority rather than let me do it for you. The theoretical Protestant position is that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice although most Protestants today do not follow it.

What is that about the Magesterium?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium
"The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ, "the Logos made Flesh" (Gospel of John 1:14), is the source of divine revelation. The Roman Catholic Church bases all of its infallible teachings on sacred tradition and sacred scripture. The Magisterium consists of only all the infallible teachings of the Church, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium." (First Vatican Council, Dei Filius 8.) However, the criteria for the infallibility of these two functions of the sacred Magisterium are different. The sacred magisterium consist of both the Extraordinary solemn dogmatic decrees of the Pope and ecumenical councils, and the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium."

WS6
04-24-2012, 10:49
Please explain your source of authority rather than let me do it for you. The theoretical Protestant position is that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice although most Protestants today do not follow it.

What is that about the Magesterium?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium
"The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ, "the Logos made Flesh" (Gospel of John 1:14), is the source of divine revelation. The Roman Catholic Church bases all of its infallible teachings on sacred tradition and sacred scripture. The Magisterium consists of only all the infallible teachings of the Church, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium." (First Vatican Council, Dei Filius 8.) However, the criteria for the infallibility of these two functions of the sacred Magisterium are different. The sacred magisterium consist of both the Extraordinary solemn dogmatic decrees of the Pope and ecumenical councils, and the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium."

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a2.htm#III):

The Magisterium of the Church

85. The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86. Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith.

87. Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me", the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Roering
04-24-2012, 11:15
Please explain your source of authority rather than let me do it for you. The theoretical Protestant position is that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice although most Protestants today do not follow it.

What is that about the Magesterium?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium
"The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ, "the Logos made Flesh" (Gospel of John 1:14), is the source of divine revelation. The Roman Catholic Church bases all of its infallible teachings on sacred tradition and sacred scripture. The Magisterium consists of only all the infallible teachings of the Church, "Wherefore, by divine and Catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in Scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal Magisterium." (First Vatican Council, Dei Filius 8.) However, the criteria for the infallibility of these two functions of the sacred Magisterium are different. The sacred magisterium consist of both the Extraordinary solemn dogmatic decrees of the Pope and ecumenical councils, and the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium."

Try putting the first 2 sentences in bold. You may catch it then. Also, wikipedia is not considered Canon by the Church. As for a source, I believe WS6 has pointed it out to you.

Now do you think it possible to continue the discussion at hand without slandering the Church? I don't think I have any patience left for it.

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 15:31
Try putting the first 2 sentences in bold. You may catch it then. Also, wikipedia is not considered Canon by the Church. As for a source, I believe WS6 has pointed it out to you.

Now do you think it possible to continue the discussion at hand without slandering the Church? I don't think I have any patience left for it.

I see, it is the semantics. I didn't express the exact formula.

No matter how you put it the gist is that as a Catholic you must believe that what your sect teaches is infallibly true whether it is or not. There is no room for individual conscience in the matter. Of course you will argue that your sect is infallible because it claims to be. Very circular.

The discussion at hand is about the Sabbath or Sunday. I have shown from the Popes own writings that the change happened gradually. The day that the Bible sanctifies is the Seventh-day and that both days were kept by many groups for centuries. This is the reason that we have a traditional two day weekend.

Roering
04-24-2012, 16:47
I see, it is the semantics. I didn't express the exact formula.

It is slander Vic. Patently dishonest. Like I said, I have no patience left for it.

WS6
04-24-2012, 16:58
[ ... ] No matter how you put it the gist is that as a Catholic you must believe that what your sect teaches [ ... ]

Sect?! http://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif Anyway, in general you're right.

There is no room for individual conscience in the matter.

Of course there is. I volunteered several years ago for the yoke, and I voluntarily re-up every year.

Of course you will argue that your sect is infallible because it claims to be. Very circular.

You are mistaken. Here's an excerpt from an article titled Proving Inspiration (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/proving-inspiration), which explains the Catholic rationale in this regard:

The Bible as Historical Truth

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, focusing particularly on the New Testament, and more specifically the Gospels. We examine the account contained therein of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves and what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, together with what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural reason alone, know of divine nature), we conclude that either Jesus was just what he claimed to be—God—or he was crazy. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, since no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate the possibility of his being a madman not just from what he said but from what his followers did after his death. Many critics of the Gospel accounts of the resurrection claim that Christ did not truly rise, that his followers took his body from the tomb and then proclaimed him risen from the dead. According to these critics, the resurrection was nothing more than a hoax. Devising a hoax to glorify a friend and mentor is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they derive no benefit. Certainly if Christ had not risen his disciples would not have died horrible deaths affirming the reality and truth of the resurrection. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. Consequently, his claims concerning himself—including his claim to be God—have credibility. He meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

Further, Christ said he would found a Church. Both the Bible (still taken as merely a historical book, not yet as an inspired one) and other ancient works attest to the fact that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of what we see in the Catholic Church today—papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, and teaching authority.

We have thus taken the material and purely historically concluded that Jesus founded the Catholic Church. Because of his Resurrection we have reason to take seriously his claims concerning the Church, including its authority to teach in his name.

This Catholic Church tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church’s word for it precisely because the Church is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority—that is, one established by God to assure us of the truth concerning matters of faith—that the Bible is inspired can we reasonably begin to use it as an inspired book.

A Spiral Argument

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church’s infallibility and the Church’s infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument! What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible insofar as it is history. From that we conclude that an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. This is not a circular argument because the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired) is not simply a restatement of its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable), and its initial finding (the Bible is historically reliable) is in no way based on the final conclusion (the Bible is inspired). What we have demonstrated is that without the existence of the Church, we could never know whether the Bible is inspired. [ … ]

muscogee
04-24-2012, 17:20
One of the great things about God is that He judges the motives and intentions. He knows those that are His. There is no pretending or hiding from Him. He will forgive all sins except for rebellion against the Holy Spirit.

So if you have never encountered the Holy Spirit, you can be forgiven for not believing it exists?

Schabesbert
04-24-2012, 17:29
I see, it is the semantics. I didn't express the exact formula.
No, it is words. With definitions.
And words mean things.

Your attempts to tell us differently notwithstanding.

The discussion at hand is about the Sabbath or Sunday. I have shown from the Popes own writings that the change happened gradually.
You have done no such thing. This is an out-and-out lie since your complete distortion of JPII's writing was already refuted.

The day that the Bible sanctifies is the Seventh-day and that both days were kept by many groups for centuries. This is the reason that we have a traditional two day weekend.
It isn't because you worship Saturn? :dunno:

Schabesbert
04-24-2012, 17:37
So if you have never encountered the Holy Spirit, you can be forgiven for not believing it exists?
Maybe, maybe not. It depends on the level of Grace you have been given, and your posture for receiving and acting on that Grace.

Seriously, I think this comes closer to the nub of the matter than you realize. It may (only may, mind you) be one reason that God doesn't reveal Himself completely at present.

Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

Unfortunately, though, many are stubborn for reasons such as hedonism and are not, in fact, "invincibly ignorant." (http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9907chap.asp)

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 17:48
Pretty Much. A Sabbath has different meanings. Most importantly it means rest. A Sabbath Day is a day of rest. For a faith community it makes sense to have it on the same day though for organizational purposes.

Oh and for good measure.....


However, God was very specific. There are a lot the other 10 commandments we could violate for the sake of convenience as well, in order that we may be in communion with all peoples, all religions, and even Atheists. We could make idols and worship them to make sure we are one with the Buddists and Hindus. We could accept their gods and be one with the them also. We could take God's name in vain like the Atheists do, so we are one with them.

We could be like the world, and drain our elderly parents out their savings, then warehouse them in any old folks home when they become on no use to us.

We could join hands with the inner cities, and slaughter those that dare bare us offense.

We can be like the rest of the world, and if we see something we want, just take it.

We could cheat on our spouses, so we have something to brag about to our co-workers.

We could spread rumors about the neighbors, becaue we hate their yard gnomes.

We could sit around and ogle the neighbors wife, because her breasts are bigger than our wives, and she has had one less kid.

We could do all those things in the name of unity with the world.

Or we could do what God wants us to do, regardless of "fitting in".

That means, when He says, Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy, we do it. When He says He is the Lord of the Sabbath, we honor Him.

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 17:53
Vic continually misrepresents the beliefs of the Church. Since he has been corrected so often, and I believe him to be of sound mind, I can only conclude that he is distorting on purpose.

The Church has ONE "source of Authority" -- the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Good follow Jesus, not a man who claims to be Jesus on earth.

Brasso
04-24-2012, 18:48
The Church has ONE "source of Authority" -- the Lord, Jesus Christ.

That's funny. It's also quite handy that according to your church Christ said they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments, therefore making anything else He ever said irrellevant and putting all authority in the RCC any ways. Effectively, replacing the Bible with whatever the hell (pun intended) the RCC decides to come up with.

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 19:21
So if you have never encountered the Holy Spirit, you can be forgiven for not believing it exists?

It is not faith in the Holy Spirit that is required. It is faith that Jesus died for your sins and you are acceptable to God as a result if you will release your sins and let Jesus bear them.

In the Bible example Jesus was undeniably healing and instead of accepting the miracle as from God, they ascribed it to the power of satan.

Jesus called this the unpardonable sin.

Luke 12:8 And I say unto you, Every one who shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
12:9 but he that denieth me in the presence of men shall be denied in the presence of the angels of God.
12:10 And every one who shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.

muscogee
04-25-2012, 06:26
What if you do this for 40 years


Luke 12:8 And I say unto you, Every one who shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

and then do this?

12:9 but he that denieth me in the presence of men shall be denied in the presence of the angels of God.
12:10 And every one who shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.

Schabesbert
04-25-2012, 08:22
That's funny. It's also quite handy that according to your church Christ said they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments,
Please substantiate this false claim.

Where did the Church ever say "they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments"?

Do you think it adds to God's glory to bear false witness? Or are you absolutely opposed to God?

therefore making anything else He ever said irrellevant and putting all authority in the RCC any ways. Effectively, replacing the Bible with whatever the hell (pun intended) the RCC decides to come up with.
The Church, as stated in scripture, is guided by the Holy Spirit. Your malicious and vitriolic statements are simply a denial of the Holy Spirit.

Schabesbert
04-25-2012, 08:46
What if you do this for 40 years



and then do this?

This has been answered in scripture:

Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?
24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity and does the same abominable things that the wicked man does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds which he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, he shall die.

Vic Hays
04-25-2012, 09:27
What if you do this for 40 years



and then do this?

Do you feel like God cannot forgive you?

There are many who are afraid to even ask for something that they know they do not deserve.

It really is impossible for anyone to deserve being forgiven that is why forgiveness is a free gift.

Oops sinned again? Just acknowledge it and God will forgive.

It is only those who are hardened and rebellious in sin that are unforgivable.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
57:21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

This is why the Sabbath is such a great thing. God has promised to take care of us at least for the day. We do not need to fret and worry how we are going to make it. One day at a time.

Exodus 16:29 See, for Jehovah hath given you the sabbath; therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread for two days. Abide every man in his place: let no man go from his place on the seventh day.
16:30 And the people rested on the seventh day.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.
4:10 For he that is entered into his rest hath himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.
4:11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, that no man fall after the same example of disobedience.
4:12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Brasso
04-25-2012, 10:12
Please substantiate this false claim.

Where did the Church ever say "they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments"?

Do you think it adds to God's glory to bear false witness? Or are you absolutely opposed to God?



Seriously? Does the 4th Commandment mean anything to you? The Sabbath commandment?

The RCC changed that commandment for no biblical reason. I could list others, but that is indictment enough.

Schabesbert
04-25-2012, 10:42
Seriously? Does the 4th Commandment mean anything to you? The Sabbath commandment?

The RCC changed that commandment for no biblical reason. I could list others, but that is indictment enough.
So, you just lied about your claim "that according to your church Christ said they could they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments".

Not unexpected.

Roering
04-25-2012, 11:55
However, God was very specific. There are a lot the other 10 commandments we could violate for the sake of convenience as well, in order that we may be in communion with all peoples, all religions, and even Atheists. We could make idols and worship them to make sure we are one with the Buddists and Hindus. We could accept their gods and be one with the them also. We could take God's name in vain like the Atheists do, so we are one with them.

We could be like the world, and drain our elderly parents out their savings, then warehouse them in any old folks home when they become on no use to us.

We could join hands with the inner cities, and slaughter those that dare bare us offense.

We can be like the rest of the world, and if we see something we want, just take it.

We could cheat on our spouses, so we have something to brag about to our co-workers.

We could spread rumors about the neighbors, becaue we hate their yard gnomes.

We could sit around and ogle the neighbors wife, because her breasts are bigger than our wives, and she has had one less kid.

We could do all those things in the name of unity with the world.

Or we could do what God wants us to do, regardless of "fitting in".

That means, when He says, Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy, we do it. When He says He is the Lord of the Sabbath, we honor Him.

King, do you in all honesty think that this was what I meant by my post? Really?

Roering
04-25-2012, 11:57
Seriously? Does the 4th Commandment mean anything to you? The Sabbath commandment?

The RCC changed that commandment for no biblical reason. I could list others, but that is indictment enough.

I've always wondered, and since you bring up "biblical reasons" I have to ask, Does it say anywhere in scripture that the Sabbath is to be on "Saturday"?

I've run a search online through various translations and couldn't find the word Saturday anywhere.

Brasso
04-25-2012, 12:21
So, you just lied about your claim "that according to your church Christ said they could they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments".

Not unexpected.


You are perhaps the biggest liar I have ever seen when it comes to the RCC. The church changed the day from Saturday (7th Day) to Sunday because it says it had the authority to do so as passed down from Peter, as passed down from Christ. So yes, according to your church it has the authority to change the commandments. You know this. It's the basis of every argument you make in defense of the indefensible. You lie on purpose. Quit projecting on others.

Brasso
04-25-2012, 12:22
I've always wondered, and since you bring up "biblical reasons" I have to ask, Does it say anywhere in scripture that the Sabbath is to be on "Saturday"?

I've run a search online through various translations and couldn't find the word Saturday anywhere.


No need to wonder. Just read your own catechism on the Sabbath. It's in black and white. It's sad that you put more faith in this man made document than you do the Word of God, but if that's what it takes...

muscogee
04-25-2012, 12:33
Do you feel like God cannot forgive you?
No, I don't think there is a God to forgive me. I did my best to get to know God for the first 41 years of my life. God never gave any indication that he was listening. I realize some, who have never met me, will say I just didn't do right. I did it as right as I knew how. I went to church faithfuly. After several years of nothing, I changed denominations still looking for some indication there was a God willing to communicate with me. I didn't want much. Just some indication that God was real. I read the Bible. I prayed. I read about the Bible and the life and times of Jesus. In the opposite experience of C. S. Lewis, I was drug kicking and screaming to the inescapable conclusion that the Christian God didn't exist. There may be a God I don't know anything about, but the story of the Christian God is too screwed up to be believed. As far as the personal relationship goes, that's self hypnosis. I had those experiences a few times. They never lasted. Every year children went to Church Camp and got saved. Most of those never lasted either. The New Testament says you have to become as a child. That means you have to become gullible. How does one divorce oneself from reality and become gullible? Especially after having been gullible for so long? As I have written before, If God wants to talk, I'm not hiding. I'm not expecting anything either.

Schabesbert
04-25-2012, 13:03
So, you just lied about your claim "that according to your church Christ said they could they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments".

Not unexpected. You are perhaps the biggest liar I have ever seen when it comes to the RCC. The church changed the day from Saturday (7th Day) to Sunday because it says it had the authority to do so as passed down from Peter, as passed down from Christ.
No, this does NOT mean "that according to your church Christ said they could they could change whatever they wanted about the commandments".

The Church claimed that IN THAT INSTANCE the Church had the Authority, because of Christ's resurrection, the teachings of Christ, the teachings of the Apostles, and the Holy Sprit's prompting, to change the main day of worship.

Your purposeful mischaracterization of that as "whatever they wanted" is duly noted as is your ease in making such a dishonest statement.

The Church also made a change in the Law in Acts 15. I suspect you're still upset about that, being one of the Judaisers that were decided against in that instance as well.

WS6
04-25-2012, 13:29
No need to wonder. Just read your own catechism on the Sabbath. It's in black and white. It's sad that you put more faith in this man made document than you do the Word of God, but if that's what it takes...

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm#II):

II. THE LORD'S DAY

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.[103]
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174. Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."[104] Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,[105] it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.[106]

Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

2175. Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:[107]

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.[108]

2176. The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."[109] Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

[103] Ps 118:24 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Psalms&chapno=118&startverse=24&endverse=).
[104] Cf. Mt 28:1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Matthew&chapno=28&startverse=1&endverse=); Mk 16:2 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Mark&chapno=16&startverse=2&endverse=); Lk 24:1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Luke&chapno=24&startverse=1&endverse=); Jn 20:1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=John&chapno=20&startverse=1&endverse=).
[105] Cf. Mk 16:1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Mark&chapno=16&startverse=1&endverse=); Mt 28:1 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Matthew&chapno=28&startverse=1&endverse=).
[106] St. Justin, I Apol. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm) 67.
[107] Cf. 1 Cor 10:11 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=1+Corinthians&chapno=10&startverse=11&endverse=).
[108] St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0105.htm) 9,1.
[109] St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,122,4. (http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3122.htm#article4)

Brasso
04-25-2012, 13:36
Well you got me on this one. It's not in the new catechism.

Which is the Sabbath day?
Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemity from Saturday to Sunday."
Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1946 ed.), p.50. Geiermann received the "apostolic blessing" of Pope Pius X on his labors, January 25, 1910.

"The Catholic Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.

In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant. The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4

"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213

Brasso
04-25-2012, 13:39
The Church claimed that IN THAT INSTANCE the Church had the Authority, because of Christ's resurrection, the teachings of Christ, the teachings of the Apostles, and the Holy Sprit's prompting, to change the main day of worship.


Wonderful sentence. Now where is the authority to do this? There's not an instance of the Apostles keeping Sunday. There's no prophecy speaking of a change in the Sabbath, unless of course you go the Book of Daniel and read about the Antichrist. So aside from the made up statement from the RCC, where does the authority come from?

WS6
04-25-2012, 13:59
Well you got me on this one. It's not in the new catechism.

Which is the Sabbath day?
Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemity from Saturday to Sunday."
Peter Geiermann, The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1946 ed.), p.50. Geiermann received the "apostolic blessing" of Pope Pius X on his labors, January 25, 1910.

"The Catholic Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her Founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant, claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday.

In this matter the Seventh Day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant. The Catholic Universe Bulletin, Aug. 14, 1942, p.4

"The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213

What's with all this stuff to which you can't link? I take my marching orders from Rome.

WS6
04-25-2012, 14:05
The Church claimed that IN THAT INSTANCE the Church had the Authority, because of Christ's resurrection, the teachings of Christ, the teachings of the Apostles, and the Holy Sprit's prompting, to change the main day of worship.

Wonderful sentence. Now where is the authority to do this? There's not an instance of the Apostles keeping Sunday. There's no prophecy speaking of a change in the Sabbath, unless of course you go the Book of Daniel and read about the Antichrist. So aside from the made up statement from the RCC, where does the authority come from?

May I have the source for your quote?

Schabesbert
04-25-2012, 14:08
Wonderful sentence.
I'm glad you agree. It's nice to see you admit to being dishonest at least this one time.

Now where is the authority to do this? There's not an instance of the Apostles keeping Sunday. There's no prophecy speaking of a change in the Sabbath, unless of course you go the Book of Daniel and read about the Antichrist. So aside from the made up statement from the RCC, where does the authority come from?
There was no authority to remove circumcision and the other Mosaic Laws either, until Acts 15 made this explicit.

WS6's first post on this thread, and his recent post from the Catechism shows how the early Church believed and practiced this. Read the footnotes.

Brasso
04-25-2012, 16:17
There was no authority to remove circumcision and the other Mosaic Laws either, until Acts 15 made this explicit.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as to what was written in Acts.

Brasso
04-25-2012, 16:18
May I have the source for your quote?

Sure. Read a few posts up. It's from Bert.

WS6
04-25-2012, 16:33
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as to what was written in Acts.

What is unclear?

But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.

So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoeni'cia and Sama'ria, reporting the conversion of the Gentiles, and they gave great joy to all the brethren. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.

But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them,

Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.

And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

After they finished speaking, James replied,

Brethren, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written,

After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will set it up,
that the rest of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.

Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood. For from early generations Moses has had in every city those who preach him, for he is read every sabbath in the synagogues.

Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsab'bas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, with the following letter:

The brethren, both the apostles and the elders, to the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cili'cia, greeting. Since we have heard that some persons from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.

So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. And when they read it, they rejoiced at the exhortation. [RSV, Acts 15:1-31]

Kingarthurhk
04-25-2012, 17:57
King, do you in all honesty think that this was what I meant by my post? Really?

It got your attention didn't it? You said we should all just choose a day for the sake of unity. That is not what God said. Further, I listed a way in which we could violate all the rest of the commandments in order to gain unity with everyone from all backgrounds in this world.

The thing is, when you purposely break one of God's laws, He views it as just as grevious as if you had broken all of them.

James 2:8-10, "<sup>8</sup> If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30302a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30302a)]</sup> you are doing right. <sup id="en-NIV-30303" class="versenum">9</sup> But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. <sup id="en-NIV-30304" class="versenum">10</sup> For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. <sup id="en-NIV-30305" class="versenum">11</sup> For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,”<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30305b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30305b)]</sup> also said, “You shall not murder.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30305c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30305c)]</sup> If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker."

Matthew 5:17-19, "<sup>17</sup> “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. <sup id="en-NIV-23253" class="versenum">18</sup> For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. <sup id="en-NIV-23254" class="versenum">19</sup> Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Kingarthurhk
04-25-2012, 17:59
Genesis 2:1-2, "<sup>1</sup> Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
<sup id="en-NIV-33" class="versenum">2</sup> By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. <sup id="en-NIV-34" class="versenum">3</sup> Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done."

The Sabbath was established at creation as the sign of God's creative power. He blessed it and made it holy.

Before God descended upon Sinai and wrote the 10 commandments with his own hand as we see in:

Exodus 31:18, "When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God."

The examples of God counseling to remember His Holy Day can be seen as follows:


Exodus 5:4-5, “<sup>4 </sup>Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” <sup>5 </sup>And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup>Commandment observance.<o:p></o:p>

Exodus 16:4-5, “<sup>4</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. <sup>5</sup> On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “<sup>21</sup>Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. <sup>22</sup> On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1970b)<sup>]</sup> for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. <sup>23</sup> He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>24</sup> So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. <sup>25</sup>“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. <sup>26</sup> Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>27</sup> Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. <sup>28</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you<sup>[</sup><sup>c</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1976c)<sup>]</sup> refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? <sup>29</sup> Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” <sup>30</sup>So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment well beforeSinai.

Spoken by God Himself as he descended on mount Sinai, and written by His very finger we find the 4th Commandment:

Exodus 20:8-11,"
<sup>8</sup>“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. <sup>9</sup> Six days you shalllabor and do all your work, <sup>10</sup> but the seventh day is a sabbath tothe LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your sonor daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor anyforeigner residing in your towns. <sup>11</sup> For in six days the LORD madethe heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested onthe seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

It is the only one of the 10 that God clearly said to REMEMBER. Further, He refers back to Genesis 2, where he made the Seventh Day Holy after creation.

What did Jesus have to say about the Sabbath?

Mark 2:23-27, "<sup>23</sup> One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. <sup id="en-NIV-24285" class="versenum">24</sup> The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

<sup id="en-NIV-24286" class="versenum">25</sup> He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need?<sup id="en-NIV-24287" class="versenum">26</sup> In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” <sup id="en-NIV-24288" class="versenum">27</sup> Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.<sup id="en-NIV-24289" class="versenum">28</sup> So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Here we have learned two important things. The Sabbath was made for man, not just Jews. Another, that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. Thus, it is the Lord's Day.

Morever, there were no Jews when God made the 7th Day Holy at creation.

Jesus taught us how to keep it Holy:

Matthew 12:1-13, "<sup>1</sup> At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. <sup id="en-NIV-23492" class="versenum">2</sup> When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”

<sup id="en-NIV-23493" class="versenum">3</sup> He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? <sup id="en-NIV-23494" class="versenum">4</sup> He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. <sup id="en-NIV-23495" class="versenum">5</sup> Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? <sup id="en-NIV-23496" class="versenum">6</sup> I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. <sup id="en-NIV-23497" class="versenum">7</sup> If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23497a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23497a)]</sup> you would not have condemned the innocent. <sup id="en-NIV-23498" class="versenum">8</sup> For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
<sup id="en-NIV-23499" class="versenum">9</sup> Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, <sup id="en-NIV-23500" class="versenum">10</sup> and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”
<sup id="en-NIV-23501" class="versenum">11</sup> He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?<sup id="en-NIV-23502" class="versenum">12</sup> How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” <sup id="en-NIV-23503" class="versenum">13</sup> Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. <sup id="en-NIV-23504" class="versenum">14</sup> But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus."

Luke 6:6-10, "<sup>6</sup> On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. <sup id="en-NIV-25154" class="versenum">7</sup> The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-25155" class="versenum">8</sup> But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.

<sup id="en-NIV-25156" class="versenum">9</sup> Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?” <sup id="en-NIV-25157" class="versenum">10</sup> He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. <sup id="en-NIV-25158" class="versenum">11</sup> But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus."

Jesus referred to the end of time and gave this warning regarding the Sabbath:

Matthew 24:20, "<sup>20</sup> Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-23979" class="versenum">21</sup> For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again."

Further, Jesus kept the Sabbath regularly:
Luke 4:16-17, "<sup>16</sup> He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, <sup id="en-NIV-25081" class="versenum">17</sup> and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written"

The Apostles kept the Sabbath:
Acts 17:2-4, " As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, <sup id="en-NIV-27527" class="versenum">3</sup> explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. <sup id="en-NIV-27528" class="versenum">4</sup> Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women."

Acts 13:42-48, "<sup>42</sup> As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. <sup id="en-NIV-27406" class="versenum">43</sup> When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

<sup id="en-NIV-27407" class="versenum">44</sup> On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. <sup id="en-NIV-27408" class="versenum">45</sup> When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.
<sup id="en-NIV-27409" class="versenum">46</sup> Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. <sup id="en-NIV-27410" class="versenum">47</sup> For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“‘I have made you<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410f)]</sup> a light for the Gentiles,
that you<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410g)]</sup> may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27410h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27410h)]</sup>” <sup id="en-NIV-27411" class="versenum">48</sup> When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Here we Gentile converts keeping the Sabbath.

The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. See Acts 13:14,44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4,11.

God tells us that when the earth is made new again, everyone will worship Him on the Sabbath.

Isaiah 66:22-23, "<sup>22</sup> “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the LORD, “so will your name and descendants endure. <sup id="en-NIV-18946" class="versenum">23</sup> From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the LORD. "<sup id="en-NIV-18947" class="versenum"></sup>

Schabesbert
04-25-2012, 18:09
The Sabbath was established at creation as the sign of God's creative power. He blessed it and made it holy.
Yes. The Sabbath is a commemoration of the Creation.
The 8th day, as stated in the Letter of Barnabas, celebrates the re-creation. The redemption, which was a much greater miracle than even Creation.

The Judaisers are stuck in the OT celebrating the Creation, rather than the Redemption. The old wine skins are unable to contain the new wine.

Kingarthurhk
04-25-2012, 18:29
Yes. The Sabbath is a commemoration of the Creation.
The 8th day, as stated in the Letter of Barnabas, celebrates the re-creation. The redemption, which was a much greater miracle than even Creation.

The Judaisers are stuck in the OT celebrating the Creation, rather than the Redemption. The old wine skins are unable to contain the new wine.

Ironic, considering God set up 7 days and not 8. Further, a large portion of the scriptures I provided are from the New Testament.

You might recall what God has said.

Malachai 3:6, "<sup>6</sup> “I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. <sup id="en-NIV-23128" class="versenum">7</sup> Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you,” says the LORD Almighty."

So, God doesn't change, but humankind does.

Do men save men?

1 Corinthians 15:15-28, "<sup>20</sup> But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. <sup id="en-NIV-28740" class="versenum">21</sup> For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. <sup id="en-NIV-28741" class="versenum">22</sup> For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. <sup id="en-NIV-28742" class="versenum">23</sup> But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. <sup id="en-NIV-28743" class="versenum">24</sup> Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. <sup id="en-NIV-28744" class="versenum">25</sup> For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. <sup id="en-NIV-28745" class="versenum">26</sup> The last enemy to be destroyed is death. <sup id="en-NIV-28746" class="versenum">27</sup> For he “has put everything under his feet.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28746c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28746c)]</sup> Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. <sup id="en-NIV-28747" class="versenum">28</sup> When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."

So, while you look towards man, I will look toward Christ, my savior, the Lord of the Sabbath.

Vic Hays
04-25-2012, 18:40
Yes. The Sabbath is a commemoration of the Creation.
The 8th day, as stated in the Letter of Barnabas, celebrates the re-creation. The redemption, which was a much greater miracle than even Creation.

The Judaisers are stuck in the OT celebrating the Creation, rather than the Redemption. The old wine skins are unable to contain the new wine.

The letter of Barnabas is not scripture and God did not create an 8th day. This is just confusion or you could say Babylon.

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

ImpeachObama
04-25-2012, 20:54
The Dogma, I mean the Gospel of Rome. The one that
has their people with Mary statues in the front yards,
rosary beads from paganism, believing in purgatory......

I fixed this one for Bert.

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/3739/678document.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/678document.jpg/)

WS6
04-26-2012, 04:14
The Dogma, I mean the Gospel of Rome. The one that
has their people with Mary statues in the front yards

Check.

rosary beads from paganism

Check.

believing in purgatory......

Check.

... uh ... okay, what's your point?

ImpeachObama
04-26-2012, 07:37
It's filled with false worship ideas, unbiblical traditions. Satan's counterfeit worship.

Rev 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Brasso
04-26-2012, 07:47
"...not one jot or tittle..."

Seriously. That statement just doesn't leave any wiggle roome does it?

Call God a liar if you want. Just don't stand too close to me.

Schabesbert
04-26-2012, 08:29
"...not one jot or tittle..."

Seriously. That statement just doesn't leave any wiggle roome does it?

Call God a liar if you want. Just don't stand too close to me.
Partial quotes, 5 words (in english) taken out of context. And that's the basis of your theology? :rofl:

Schabesbert
04-26-2012, 08:33
It's filled with false worship ideas, unbiblical traditions. Satan's counterfeit worship.
Nope, you're mistaken. We don't believe in such unbiblical (actual, anti-biblical) notions as sola scriptura and sola fide (sola fide as it's described by most protestants).

You're confusing us with protestants, who added their own beliefs in the 1500s, LOOONNG after the Apostles gave us the deposit of faith.

WS6
04-26-2012, 10:19
It's filled with false worship ideas, unbiblical traditions. Satan's counterfeit worship.

Rev 22:18-19
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Where does the Apocalypse show the totality of true worship ideas, Biblical traditions, and Christ's authentic worship?

Vic Hays
04-26-2012, 11:18
Nope, you're mistaken. We don't believe in such unbiblical (actual, anti-biblical) notions as sola scriptura and sola fide (sola fide as it's described by most protestants).

You're confusing us with protestants, who added their own beliefs in the 1500s, LOOONNG after the Apostles gave us the deposit of faith.

Is the letter of Barnabas part of that deposit? Which Apostle left that?

I think I will stick to the Bible than any of those fraudulent writings from who knows where.

II Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase to more ungodliness.
2:17 And their word will eat as does a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, The Lord knows them that are his. And, Let every one that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Schabesbert
04-26-2012, 12:55
Is the letter of Barnabas part of that deposit? Which Apostle left that?
Is the Gospel of Luke part of that deposit? Which Apostle left that? How do you know?

Is the letter to the Hebrews part of that deposit? Which Apostle left that? How do you know?

I think I will stick to the Bible than any of those fraudulent writings from who knows where.
From your point of view, ALL of the NT is from "who knows where." Unless you accept the Authority of the Church, that is.




II Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved to God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase to more ungodliness.

Yes, I know. I'm violating St. Paul's instruction to Timothy by replying to you. Sorry.

Kingarthurhk
04-26-2012, 13:38
What's with all this stuff to which you can't link? I take my marching orders from Rome.

That much is is obvious. In another thread you said that scripture was not needed. And now you say that Rome is your only allegiance. I can see that in your single-minded and harsh personality when it comes to the things you post.

Roering
04-26-2012, 13:40
It got your attention didn't it? You said we should all just choose a day for the sake of unity.

I most certainly did not. Please go back and re-read my post. Are you misrepresenting by accident or are you following in the footsteps of Vic here?

Roering
04-26-2012, 13:49
The thing is, when you purposely break one of God's laws, He views it as just as grevious as if you had broken all of them.


God's laws change King. I have demonstrated this in both the Old and New Testament numerous times.

Circumcision, divorce, eating habits, ritual sacrifice, ritual cleanliness just to name a few.

If you want to live like a Jew then by all means go for it. If you want to live under the old covenant of the law then by all means have at it. I don't judge you. I just so happen to prefer to live under the New along with the rest of the faithful saints belonging to Christ in the Church He established.

rgregoryb
04-26-2012, 13:52
So, what if at creation god was working a Tues- Sat shift? Assuming he began on monday is pure speculation. Were the days of the week even named at the time? So even the seventh day ascribed to saturday is also a man made tradition.

The sabbath in Jerusalem is not the sabbath in San Diego, so how can you claim YOU worship on THE SABBATH? did the OT characters even know about time zones and geographical differences?

This argument is as usual, who can drop the biggest pile of bs.

Kingarthurhk
04-26-2012, 15:22
I most certainly did not. Please go back and re-read my post. Are you misrepresenting by accident or are you following in the footsteps of Vic here?

For a faith community it makes sense to have it on the same day though for organizational purposes.

Unless you assume that the faith community is only inclusive to Catholcism your comment is eccumentical.

Schabesbert
04-26-2012, 16:20
In another thread you said that scripture was not needed.
Not needed ... for what?

Is the NT necessary for salvation? No. Is it necessary to learn abuot the faith? Again, no.

The Church pre-existed a complete Bible. Even when the complete Bible was decided on (by the Holy Spirit acting in the Catholic Church!), many, many people didn't have a Bible. In fact, it wasn't until the invention of the printing press (by a Catholic, BTW) that this became practical by any means.

What did people do in the year 40? Were none of them saved?


Poor St. Steven! Poor St. Barnabas! Poor Lydia, Appolos, Cornelius, Lois, Prisca and Aquila, St. Philip, even St. Luke!

Poor Epaenetus, Mary, Andronicus and Junias, Ampliatus, Urbanus, Stachys, Apelles, Aristobulus, Herodion, Narcissus, Tryphaena and Tryphosa, Persis, Rufus, Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas, Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, Olympas, Lucius and Jason and Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius, Erastus, Quartus, and even St. Timothy!!!

There was no NT at that time, probably not a single word! And yet, there was the Church! Praise God!!

Kingarthurhk
04-26-2012, 16:27
God's laws change King. I have demonstrated this in both the Old and New Testament numerous times.

Circumcision, divorce, eating habits, ritual sacrifice, ritual cleanliness just to name a few.

If you want to live like a Jew then by all means go for it. If you want to live under the old covenant of the law then by all means have at it. I don't judge you. I just so happen to prefer to live under the New along with the rest of the faithful saints belonging to Christ in the Church He established.

I do live under the New Covenant. I can show you where it is.

Jerimiah 31:31-34, "<sup>31 </sup>“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant <sup class="crossreference" value='(CN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19723CN))'></sup>
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
<sup class="versenum">32 </sup>It will not be like the covenant <sup class="crossreference" value='(CO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CO))'></sup>
I made with their ancestors <sup class="crossreference" value='(CP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CP))'></sup>
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, <sup class="crossreference" value='(CQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CQ))'></sup>
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband <sup class="crossreference" value='(CR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CR))'></sup> to<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724d)]</sup> them,<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724e)]</sup>”
declares the Lord.
<sup class="versenum">33 </sup>“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds <sup class="crossreference" value='(CS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CS))'></sup>
and write it on their hearts. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CT))'></sup>
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CU))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>No longer will they teach <sup class="crossreference" value='(CV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CV))'></sup> their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know <sup class="crossreference" value='(CW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CW))'></sup> me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive <sup class="crossreference" value='(CX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CX))'></sup> their wickedness
and will remember their sins <sup class="crossreference" value='(CY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CY))'></sup> no more.”

And there it is. The Law that God wrote on stone, he know writes in the hearts and minds of men.

As to the other things you mentioned this should help clarify the issue:

http://www.ceremoniallaw.com/

Kingarthurhk
04-26-2012, 16:35
Not needed ... for what?

Is the NT necessary for salvation? No. Is it necessary to learn abuot the faith? Again, no.

The Church pre-existed a complete Bible. Even when the complete Bible was decided on (by the Holy Spirit acting in the Catholic Church!), many, many people didn't have a Bible. In fact, it wasn't until the invention of the printing press (by a Catholic, BTW) that this became practical by any means.

And the protestant reformers are thanksful for that printing press. You are wrong that there was no scripture. The entire Old Testament was the teacher of all the Apostles, and Jesus declared it is written many times referring to scripture, and especially to thwart Satan himself.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, the rest were experts in the "Old Testament". Jesus especially, since He inspired it Himself.

Schabesbert
04-26-2012, 16:40
And the protestant reformers are thanksful for that printing press. You are wrong that there was no scripture.
You are wrong that I said that. I said that there was no NT.
You should really see someone about your reading comprehension problem.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, the rest were experts in the "Old Testament".
As is Satan. And some people to whom you listen.

I'm not arguing that scripture isn't a wonderful blessing; it is.
However, before the Church even declared what is and what is not to be considered scripture, there were saints.

ArtificialGrape
04-26-2012, 16:49
If you want to live like a Jew then by all means go for it.

More easily said than done, but at least you can get a pretty humorous book out of it.

Amazon.com: The Year of Living Biblically: One Man's Humble Quest to Follow the Bible as Literally as Possible (9780743291484): A. J. Jacobs: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IlsFPErjL.@@AMEPARAM@@41IlsFPErjL

Leviticus 15:20 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2015:20&version=NIV) makes it a challenge to find a place to sit, particularly when the wife decides to sit everywhere in the house when on her period just to spite you.

-ArtificialGrape

Kingarthurhk
04-26-2012, 18:48
You are wrong that I said that. I said that there was no NT.
You should really see someone about your reading comprehension problem.

You said there was no bible. The Old Testament is the foundation of the Bible. So, I am fairly confidennt is my reading acumen. Thank you.


As is Satan. And some people to whom you listen.

So, because I am a bible believing protestant, you extrapulate that because I don't accept priests, prelates, and popes in lieu of Christ that I must somehow be a Satanist? That's a stretch even for you. I have to say, I have known Catholics of all stripes and frankly you have shown a cruel, angry, and vindictive stripe.

Jesus has His people in all faiths. For instance, there is a Catholic I work with, and he is one of the most quietest humblest men I know. He and I are actually good friends. Our doctrines are worlds apart, but our faith in Jesus is similar. He operates with the light he has. I even invited him over for fish dinner at my home for Good Friday, even though it is not a thing I celebrate. I know he does, and I knew his wife was out of town, so a home cooked meal is always something a married man can appreciate.

Why? It is what Christian men do for each other that are friends.

The spirit with which you attack people to tear them down personally does not do you nor your faith any service. Rather, it underscores what the corruption of following Catechisms rather than Christ can accomplish in a man. It shows why protestants are far better off under the banner of Sola Scriptura.

Meditate on this scripture, and when you have realized its meaning, come back for a debate rather than vitriolic sardonic diatribe.

1 Corinthians 13:, "If I speak in the tongues<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28667a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28667a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28667A))'></sup> of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>If I have the gift of prophecy <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668B))'></sup> and can fathom all mysteries <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668C))'></sup> and all knowledge, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668D))'></sup> and if I have a faith <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668E))'></sup> that can move mountains, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668F))'></sup> but do not have love, I am nothing. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>If I give all I possess to the poor <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28669G))'></sup> and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28669b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28669b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28669H))'></sup> but do not have love, I gain nothing.
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Love is patient, <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28670I))'></sup> love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28670J))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28671K))'></sup> it is not easily angered, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28671L))'></sup> it keeps no record of wrongs. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28671M))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Love does not delight in evil <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28672N))'></sup> but rejoices with the truth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28672O))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28673P))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28674Q))'></sup> they will cease; where there are tongues, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28674R))'></sup> they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For we know in part <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28675S))'></sup> and we prophesy in part, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>but when completeness comes, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28676T))'></sup> what is in part disappears. <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28677U))'></sup> behind me. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28678V))'></sup> then we shall see face to face. <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28678W))'></sup> Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28678X))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28679Y))'></sup> But the greatest of these is love."

Meditate on the mean of

Brasso
04-26-2012, 20:02
Partial quotes, 5 words (in english) taken out of context. And that's the basis of your theology?

You especially. I don't want you within 5 states of me.

Of course there is more. Not enough burning coal on your head yet?

Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.
Mat 5:19 “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

Mock the Word. Teach against it. Do what you want.

Dan 7:25 and it speaks words against the Most High, and it wears out the set-apart ones of the Most High, and it intends to change appointed times and law, and they are given into its hand for a time and times and half a time.

...he who has ears....

ImpeachObama
04-26-2012, 22:33
Nope, you're mistaken. We don't believe in such unbiblical (actual, anti-biblical) notions as sola scriptura and sola fide (sola fide as it's described by most protestants).

You're confusing us with protestants, who added their own beliefs in the 1500s, LOOONNG after the Apostles gave us the deposit of faith.

Could you be influenced by......SATAN? Oh look, a crucifix. Rome's symbol for the worse capital punishment. You might as well wear an electric chair on your necklace. Hail Mary, hail Mary, hail Mary.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8855/pbenedict.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/pbenedict.jpg/)

Vic Hays
04-26-2012, 22:49
God's laws change King. I have demonstrated this in both the Old and New Testament numerous times.

Circumcision, divorce, eating habits, ritual sacrifice, ritual cleanliness just to name a few.

If you want to live like a Jew then by all means go for it. If you want to live under the old covenant of the law then by all means have at it. I don't judge you. I just so happen to prefer to live under the New along with the rest of the faithful saints belonging to Christ in the Church He established.

God does not change. God is moral. The Ten Commandments are moral laws. They represent God's morality. The Ten Commandments are the Covenant both old and new. God said He would not change His Covenant or the words that came out of His lips.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Exodus 20:1 And God spoke all these words, saying,
20:2 I am the LORD thy God, who have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make to thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy to thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
20:8 Remember the sabbath-day to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath-day, and hallowed it.

rgregoryb
04-27-2012, 07:01
......and yet christians wonder why atheists think you're nuts...look at the crap on here. Tell the world Jesus loves them, but only if you worship your way, great message keep it up. Knuckleheads ,the lot of you

ImpeachObama
04-27-2012, 07:45
You have been part of it too Gregory in the past and present.

rgregoryb
04-27-2012, 07:48
You have been part of it too Gregory in the past and present.

why, yes I have and have realized the error of my ways...:supergrin:

Brasso
04-27-2012, 08:11
Tell the world Jesus loves them, but only if you worship your way, great message keep it up. Knuckleheads ,the lot of you

Messiah said to repent. Make straight the Way of God. This means to turn back to His Way. His instructions. His laws. His commandments. His judgements. His ordinances. His statutes.

Please quit posting your pagan nonsense here. Quit telling people how to worship a God you don't believe in.

Schabesbert
04-27-2012, 08:36
You said there was no bible. The Old Testament is the foundation of the Bible. So, I am fairly confidennt is my reading acumen. Thank you.
You can be as confidennt as you like; doesn't mean it's true. You can be confident that you're Queen Elizabeth if you'd like.

Here's what I said, precisely (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18895794#post18895794):
Originally Posted by Schabesbert
Not needed ... for what?

Is the NT necessary for salvation? No. Is it necessary to learn abuot the faith? Again, no.

The Church pre-existed a complete Bible. Even when the complete Bible was decided on (by the Holy Spirit acting in the Catholic Church!), many, many people didn't have a Bible. In fact, it wasn't until the invention of the printing press (by a Catholic, BTW) that this became practical by any means.


Please highlight the place where I said that there was no Bible.
:upeyes:

So, because I am a bible believing protestant,
No, you're a bible distorting protestant.

you extrapulate that because I don't accept priests, prelates, and popes in lieu of Christ that I must somehow be a Satanist?
No, but you distort the scriptures. Pretty much like Satan did when disputing with Christ.

Jesus has His people in all faiths. For instance, there is a Catholic I work with, and he is one of the most quietest humblest men I know. He and I are actually good friends. Our doctrines are worlds apart, but our faith in Jesus is similar. He operates with the light he has. I even invited him over for fish dinner at my home for Good Friday, even though it is not a thing I celebrate. I know he does, and I knew his wife was out of town, so a home cooked meal is always something a married man can appreciate.

Reminds me of bigots that say they can't be prejudiced because they have many black friends.

So, do you tell him that he "accept[s] priests, prelates, and popes in lieu of Christ"? What does he say when you lie about his beliefs?

No, I suspect you hide your true feelings. You keep your lies to yourself.

Why? It is what Christian men do for each other that are friends.
True. Which is why you shouldn't distort and lie about Catholic beliefs.

The spirit with which you attack people to tear them down personally does not do you nor your faith any service.
It sounds like the truth hurts. I know you don't like having your distortions exposed, but I really can't let them stand. You're attacking Christ when you attack His Church (see Acts 9:4, 22:7, and 26:14).

Rather, it underscores what the corruption of following Catechisms rather than Christ can accomplish in a man.
See? We don't follow "Catechisms rather than Christ" as you falsely claim. This is known as a false dichotomy.

It shows why protestants are far better off under the banner of Sola Scriptura.
So, you claim it's better to follow a false, unbiblical doctrine of men that negates the Word of God?

Meditate on this scripture, and when you have realized its meaning, come back for a debate rather than vitriolic sardonic diatribe.

1 Corinthians 13:, "If I speak in the tongues<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28667a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28667a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28667A))'></sup> of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>If I have the gift of prophecy <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668B))'></sup> and can fathom all mysteries <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668C))'></sup> and all knowledge, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668D))'></sup> and if I have a faith <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668E))'></sup> that can move mountains, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28668F))'></sup> but do not have love, I am nothing. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>If I give all I possess to the poor <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28669G))'></sup> and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28669b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28669b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28669H))'></sup> but do not have love, I gain nothing.
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Love is patient, <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28670I))'></sup> love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28670J))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28671K))'></sup> it is not easily angered, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28671L))'></sup> it keeps no record of wrongs. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28671M))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Love does not delight in evil <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28672N))'></sup> but rejoices with the truth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28672O))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28673P))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28674Q))'></sup> they will cease; where there are tongues, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28674R))'></sup> they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For we know in part <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28675S))'></sup> and we prophesy in part, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>but when completeness comes, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28676T))'></sup> what is in part disappears. <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28677U))'></sup> behind me. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28678V))'></sup> then we shall see face to face. <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28678W))'></sup> Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28678X))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28679Y))'></sup> But the greatest of these is love."

Meditate on the mean of
Just taught a class on it 2 weeks ago.
It's ironic, though, that you who are about the most vitrolic hater of Christ's Church would have the gall to refer to such a passage.

WS6
04-27-2012, 08:39
Could you be influenced by......SATAN? Oh look, a crucifix. Rome's symbol for the worse capital punishment. You might as well wear an electric chair on your necklace. Hail Mary, hail Mary, hail Mary.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8855/pbenedict.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/pbenedict.jpg/)

As Paul states:

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. [RSV, 1 Corinthians 1:17-25]

Schabesbert
04-27-2012, 08:40
Could you be influenced by......SATAN? Oh look, a crucifix. Rome's symbol for the worse capital punishment. You might as well wear an electric chair on your necklace. Hail Mary, hail Mary, hail Mary.

You're connection with reality is becoming ever more tenuous.

It's no wonder some protestants here are such haters. Christ predicted as much.

St. Paul called the cross a glory.
Ga 6:14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

St. Paul taught what the Catholic Church teaches. You apparently don't follow those teachings. Fine.

Schabesbert
04-27-2012, 08:41
......and yet christians wonder why atheists think you're nuts...look at the crap on here. Tell the world Jesus loves them, but only if you worship your way, great message keep it up. Knuckleheads ,the lot of you
Please don't confuse Kingarthurhk, Brasso, and ImpeachObama with christians.

Brasso
04-27-2012, 08:46
St. Paul taught what the Catholic Church teaches. You apparently don't follow those teachings. Fine.

I'm sure you actually believe this.

I'm sure you are dead wrong.

When Moses went up to the mountain, what did God tell him about the Sanctuary? He told him to be sure to make it exactly according to the pattern he saw in heaven. Why do you think that is?

There is a Temple in heaven. It follows the same pattern and laws as the Tabernacle Moses built. It's not some "spiritual" sanctuary. It's a real place where the Messiah of Israel intercedes as the Melchizadok Priest. The Laws haven't been done away with. They are alive and well. All of them.

You have drank the Kool-Aid. Despite black and white passages to the contrary, you continue to worship the RCC instead of God.

Schabesbert
04-27-2012, 09:14
I'm sure you actually believe this.
I'm sure you think you know what I believe. But, no, you don't posess omniscience. I seem to be the one that needs to continually break it to you that you are not God.

I'm sure you are dead wrong.
This statement is about as accurate as your belief that you can read my mind.


The Laws haven't been done away with. They are alive and well. All of them.
Seriously? All the Levitical Laws?
All the sacrificial laws?
The absolute requirement of circumcision?

And you wonder why I think you're a Judaiser. :upeyes:


You have drank the Kool-Aid.
No. But you can't hold the new wine in your old wineskin.

Brasso
04-27-2012, 09:29
You're just not capable of a biblically sound statement.

You can't get around the idea that Yeshua didn't come to start a new religion.

http://www.bethimmanuel.org/articles/new-wine-and-old-wineskins-parable-luke-536-39-re-examined

You seem to think that Paul went to the Synagogue every Sabbath to teach gentiles to disobey Torah. LOL

Vic Hays
04-27-2012, 09:32
As Paul states:

What concerns me is not the cross so much but the satanic hand signs. How can someone who is supposed to be Christ's Apostle dabble in satanic stuff. He is not the only pope or world leader to use these. Many of them do.

Here is an example of a religious leader using the same sign.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=178&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=vwie5EWgP4dayM:&imgrefurl=http://onenationpresentation.com/hiddentruths.html&docid=A7mInZoRJfw1yM&imgurl=http://onenationpresentation.com/resources/images/articles/robertson.jpg&w=320&h=240&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&dur=19&sig=106472017639514747260&page=9&tbnh=163&tbnw=235&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:178,i:205&tx=118&ty=111&vpx=150&vpy=364&hovh=192&hovw=256


Here is are examples of world leaders using the same sign:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tsJqC-BNRjs/T0HLjlsHs1I/AAAAAAAABPg/pHeuOvP364I/s1600/bushiran.jpg
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=178&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=EgNrR0Vk4Y3crM:&imgrefurl=http://www.philosophicalanthropology.net/2010/04/mudras-and-hand-signs.html&docid=AJqymq5HZPJ5tM&imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DS3Axl118Ng/S8VuvfUXqjI/AAAAAAAAHRw/6ZuthywDzWM/s400/obama-devil-hand.jpg&w=288&h=216&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=495&vpy=30&dur=10305&hovh=172&hovw=230&tx=118&ty=87&sig=106472017639514747260&page=9&tbnh=163&tbnw=226&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:178,i:231

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=178&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=WGy01zZLus9hPM:&imgrefurl=http://abouttheilluminati.com/&docid=DOBOcj08q7fVGM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qzUO62a2vH8/SZTu5RWx8SI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/HiAlKSx_tf8/s400/bush_sign.jpg&w=400&h=311&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=919&vpy=100&dur=586&hovh=164&hovw=229&tx=112&ty=85&sig=106472017639514747260&page=9&tbnh=164&tbnw=229&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:19,s:178,i:246

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=88&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=QVtr5rx6RyvQ7M:&imgrefurl=http://www.disclose.tv/forum/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-satanic-hand-signs-t63634.html&docid=GA1hnb62ZuagwM&imgurl=http://www.whale.to/b/sarcozy-presidentfrance-satanic.jpg&w=340&h=255&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=584&vpy=237&dur=2020&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=172&ty=113&sig=106472017639514747260&page=5&tbnh=159&tbnw=212&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:88,i:35

II Corinthians 6:15 What agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what portion has a believer with an unbeliever?
6:16 What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
6:17 Therefore, “’Come out from among them, And be separate,’ says the Lord, ‘Touch no unclean thing. I will receive you.
6:18 I will be to you a Father. You will be to me sons and daughters,’ says the Lord Almighty.”

Roering
04-27-2012, 11:13
I do live under the New Covenant. I can show you where it is.

Jerimiah 31:31-34, "<sup>31 </sup>“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant <sup class="crossreference" value='(CN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19723CN))'></sup>
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
<sup class="versenum">32 </sup>It will not be like the covenant <sup class="crossreference" value='(CO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CO))'></sup>
I made with their ancestors <sup class="crossreference" value='(CP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CP))'></sup>
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt, <sup class="crossreference" value='(CQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CQ))'></sup>
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband <sup class="crossreference" value='(CR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19724CR))'></sup> to<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724d)]</sup> them,<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-19724e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31&version=NIV#fen-NIV-19724e)]</sup>”
declares the Lord.
<sup class="versenum">33 </sup>“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds <sup class="crossreference" value='(CS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CS))'></sup>
and write it on their hearts. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CT))'></sup>
I will be their God,
and they will be my people. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19725CU))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>No longer will they teach <sup class="crossreference" value='(CV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CV))'></sup> their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know <sup class="crossreference" value='(CW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CW))'></sup> me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive <sup class="crossreference" value='(CX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CX))'></sup> their wickedness
and will remember their sins <sup class="crossreference" value='(CY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-19726CY))'></sup> no more.”

And there it is. The Law that God wrote on stone, he know writes in the hearts and minds of men.

As to the other things you mentioned this should help clarify the issue:

http://www.ceremoniallaw.com/

Your quote From Jerimiah says

"with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah."

I am what they would refer to as a "Gentile".
I am a part of all nations blessed through the line of Jacob as it is written in Genesis.

I had no idea you were Jewish.

muscogee
04-27-2012, 11:53
What concerns me is not the cross so much but the satanic hand signs. How can someone who is supposed to be Christ's Apostle dabble in satanic stuff. He is not the only pope or world leader to use these. Many of them do.

Here is an example of a religious leader using the same sign.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=178&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=vwie5EWgP4dayM:&imgrefurl=http://onenationpresentation.com/hiddentruths.html&docid=A7mInZoRJfw1yM&imgurl=http://onenationpresentation.com/resources/images/articles/robertson.jpg&w=320&h=240&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&dur=19&sig=106472017639514747260&page=9&tbnh=163&tbnw=235&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:178,i:205&tx=118&ty=111&vpx=150&vpy=364&hovh=192&hovw=256


Here is are examples of world leaders using the same sign:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tsJqC-BNRjs/T0HLjlsHs1I/AAAAAAAABPg/pHeuOvP364I/s1600/bushiran.jpg
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=178&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=EgNrR0Vk4Y3crM:&imgrefurl=http://www.philosophicalanthropology.net/2010/04/mudras-and-hand-signs.html&docid=AJqymq5HZPJ5tM&imgurl=http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DS3Axl118Ng/S8VuvfUXqjI/AAAAAAAAHRw/6ZuthywDzWM/s400/obama-devil-hand.jpg&w=288&h=216&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=495&vpy=30&dur=10305&hovh=172&hovw=230&tx=118&ty=87&sig=106472017639514747260&page=9&tbnh=163&tbnw=226&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:12,s:178,i:231

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=178&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=WGy01zZLus9hPM:&imgrefurl=http://abouttheilluminati.com/&docid=DOBOcj08q7fVGM&imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_qzUO62a2vH8/SZTu5RWx8SI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/HiAlKSx_tf8/s400/bush_sign.jpg&w=400&h=311&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=919&vpy=100&dur=586&hovh=164&hovw=229&tx=112&ty=85&sig=106472017639514747260&page=9&tbnh=164&tbnw=229&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:19,s:178,i:246

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hand+signs+meaning&start=88&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C2SKPL_enUS446&biw=1207&bih=739&addh=36&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=QVtr5rx6RyvQ7M:&imgrefurl=http://www.disclose.tv/forum/what-is-the-meaning-of-this-satanic-hand-signs-t63634.html&docid=GA1hnb62ZuagwM&imgurl=http://www.whale.to/b/sarcozy-presidentfrance-satanic.jpg&w=340&h=255&ei=jciaT-OqJJPYiAL80rmZDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=584&vpy=237&dur=2020&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=172&ty=113&sig=106472017639514747260&page=5&tbnh=159&tbnw=212&ndsp=23&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:88,i:35

Never been to an OU Texas football game have you Half the crowd gives that sign (Texas - hook em horns).The other halve gives it upside down (OU - cant write the meaning of that in polite company).

ArtificialGrape
04-27-2012, 12:38
Never been to an OU Texas football game have you Half the crowd gives that sign (Texas - hook em horns).The other halve gives it upside down (OU - cant write the meaning of that in polite company).

:rofl:

Boomer Sooner!

rgregoryb
04-27-2012, 14:50
Messiah said to repent. Make straight the Way of God. This means to turn back to His Way. His instructions. His laws. His commandments. His judgements. His ordinances. His statutes.

Please quit posting your pagan nonsense here. Quit telling people how to worship a God you don't believe in.

like the one you created in your imagination?

ArtificialGrape
04-27-2012, 16:01
Perhaps it's time that everybody relaxes a bit and honors the Sabbath...

Black Sabbath Paranoid - YouTube

Kingarthurhk
04-27-2012, 17:50
Your quote From Jerimiah says

"with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah."

I am what they would refer to as a "Gentile".
I am a part of all nations blessed through the line of Jacob as it is written in Genesis.

I had no idea you were Jewish.

If you are not part of Israel, then you have no portion with God. You may want to reconsider that perspective.

Romans 11:11-32, "
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28221Q))'></sup> Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28221R))'></sup> to make Israel envious. <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28221S))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28222T))'></sup> how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28223U))'></sup> I take pride in my ministry <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28224V))'></sup> and save <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28224W))'></sup> some of them. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>For if their rejection brought reconciliation <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28225X))'></sup> to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28225Y))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28226Z))'></sup> is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>If some of the branches have been broken off, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28227AA))'></sup> and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28227AB))'></sup> and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28228AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28230AD))'></sup> Do not be arrogant, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28230AE))'></sup> but tremble. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28230AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>Consider therefore the kindness <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28232AG))'></sup> and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28232AH))'></sup> in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28232AI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28233AJ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28234AK))'></sup> how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

All Israel Will Be Saved

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>I do not want you to be ignorant <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28235AL))'></sup> of this mystery, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28235AM))'></sup> brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28235AN))'></sup> Israel has experienced a hardening <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28235AO))'></sup> in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28235AP))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>and in this way<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28236e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28236e)]</sup> all Israel will be saved. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28236AQ))'></sup> As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>And this is<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28237f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28237f)]</sup> my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28237g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28237g)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28237AR))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28238AS))'></sup> for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28238AT))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">29 </sup>for God’s gifts and his call <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28239AU))'></sup> are irrevocable. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28239AV))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>Just as you who were at one time disobedient <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28240AW))'></sup> to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28241h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28241h)]</sup> receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>For God has bound everyone over to disobedience <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28242AX))'></sup> so that he may have mercy on them all."

So, we Gentiles are grafted in as spritual Israel. If you are not, you grow from another tree, that is not of God.

Galatians 6:12-16, "<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Those who want to impress people by means of the flesh <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29201T))'></sup> are trying to compel you to be circumcised. <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29201U))'></sup> The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29201V))'></sup> for the cross of Christ. <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29202W))'></sup> yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29202X))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29203Y))'></sup> through which<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29203a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29203a)]</sup> the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29203Z))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29204AA))'></sup> what counts is the new creation. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29204AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29205b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29205b)]</sup> the Israel of God."

So, if you are not of Spiritual Israel, or grafted into Spiritual Israel, you have some serious problems.

So, that is who the covenant applies us to we gentiles.

Kingarthurhk
04-27-2012, 17:58
You can be as confidennt as you like; doesn't mean it's true. You can be confident that you're Queen Elizabeth if you'd like.

Here's what I said, precisely (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18895794#post18895794):

Please highlight the place where I said that there was no Bible.
:upeyes:


No, you're a bible distorting protestant.


No, but you distort the scriptures. Pretty much like Satan did when disputing with Christ.



Reminds me of bigots that say they can't be prejudiced because they have many black friends.

So, do you tell him that he "accept[s] priests, prelates, and popes in lieu of Christ"? What does he say when you lie about his beliefs?

No, I suspect you hide your true feelings. You keep your lies to yourself.


True. Which is why you shouldn't distort and lie about Catholic beliefs.


It sounds like the truth hurts. I know you don't like having your distortions exposed, but I really can't let them stand. You're attacking Christ when you attack His Church (see Acts 9:4, 22:7, and 26:14).


See? We don't follow "Catechisms rather than Christ" as you falsely claim. This is known as a false dichotomy.


So, you claim it's better to follow a false, unbiblical doctrine of men that negates the Word of God?


Just taught a class on it 2 weeks ago.
It's ironic, though, that you who are about the most vitrolic hater of Christ's Church would have the gall to refer to such a passage.

To you and the spirit from which you come, I give you only this reply:

Jude 1:9-10, " <sup id="en-NIV1984-30666" class="versenum">9</sup> But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” <sup id="en-NIV1984-30667" class="versenum">10</sup> Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them."

Kingarthurhk
04-27-2012, 18:04
Perhaps it's time that everybody relaxes a bit and honors the Sabbath...

Black Sabbath Paranoid - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIhh9nFYv4)



Sarah Draget - "Remember" - YouTube

Kingarthurhk
04-27-2012, 18:47
Perhaps it's time that everybody relaxes a bit and honors the Sabbath...

Black Sabbath Paranoid - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aIhh9nFYv4)


How to tell which day is the Sabbath - YouTube

Kingarthurhk
04-27-2012, 19:28
60 Bible Facts on the Seventh-Day of the Week - YouTube

Kingarthurhk
04-27-2012, 19:41
The Forgotten Day - YouTube

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 15:08
There is not a single Bible text to show that Sunday is anything other than a normal working day.

Tilley
04-29-2012, 15:37
There is not a single Bible text to show that Sunday is anything other than a normal working day.

So Easter Sunday is just another working day?

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 16:01
So Easter Sunday is just another working day?

Can you find it in the Bible? Easter Sunday is a date set centuries after the resurrection.

http://www.epiphanysf.com/easter_e.htm
" The current Gregorian ecclesiastical rules that determine the date of Easter trace back to 325 CE at the First Council of Nicaea convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine. At that time the Roman world used the Julian Calendar (put in place by Julius Caesar)."

WS6
04-29-2012, 16:09
There is not a single Bible text to show that Sunday is anything other than a normal working day.

You might have a point, if you could make the case for the 'Bible-alone' doctrine. But you won't find that doctrine anywhere in the Bible.

Brasso
04-29-2012, 16:24
You might have a point, if you could make the case for the 'Bible-alone' doctrine. But you won't find that doctrine anywhere in the Bible.


"Do not add.... neither take away..."

When will you believe?

WS6
04-29-2012, 17:03
"Do not add.... neither take away..."

When will you believe?

I will defer interpretation of Scripture to that Church, which defined the Christian canon in the first place. There is fundamentally no difference between folks like you and the LGBT crowd, who also have their particular spin on Scripture meaning.

Amazon.com: The Queer Bible Commentary (9780334040217): Deryn Guest, Robert E. Goss, Mona West, Thomas Bohache: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FE499AVML.@@AMEPARAM@@51FE499AVML

Brasso
04-29-2012, 17:44
I will defer interpretation of Scripture to that Church, which defined the Christian canon in the first place. T

You will defer to man.

What has any of that got to do with what the Bible actually says?

What are you going to say when you standing before Him trying to explain why the 200 times He said keep the Sabbath holy weren't enough to convince you? What are you going to say? "The Pope said so."

Step away from the Kool-Aid. It's a trap.

Are you still waiting for someone to claim to take the place of Christ? Are you still waiting for someone to change the appointed days? Sabbaths? Laws?

Really?

Kingarthurhk
04-29-2012, 17:57
You might have a point, if you could make the case for the 'Bible-alone' doctrine. But you won't find that doctrine anywhere in the Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16-17, "<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>All Scripture is God-breathed <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29870AD))'></sup> and is useful for teaching, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29870AE))'></sup> rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29870AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>so that the servant of God<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29871a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29871a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29871AG))'></sup> may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Matthew 4:4, "<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23214b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b)]</sup>”

Deuteronomy 8:3, "<sup> </sup>He humbled <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141E))'></sup> you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141F))'></sup> which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141G))'></sup> you that man does not live on bread <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141H))'></sup> alone but on every word that comes from the mouth <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141I))'></sup> of the Lord."

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26046A))'></sup> and the Word was with God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26046B))'></sup> and the Word was God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26046C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>He was with God in the beginning. <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26047D))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26048E))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>In him was life, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26049F))'></sup> and that life was the light <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26049G))'></sup> of all mankind. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>The light shines in the darkness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26050H))'></sup> and the darkness has not overcome<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26050a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26050a)]</sup> it."

Deuteronomy 4:2, "<sup> </sup>Do not add <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007D))'></sup> to what I command you and do not subtract <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007E))'></sup> from it, but keep <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007F))'></sup> the commands <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007G))'></sup> of the Lord your God that I give you."

Matthew 15:3, "<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"

Kingarthurhk
04-29-2012, 17:59
I will defer interpretation of Scripture to that Church, which defined the Christian canon in the first place. There is fundamentally no difference between folks like you and the LGBT crowd, who also have their particular spin on Scripture meaning.

Amazon.com: The Queer Bible Commentary (9780334040217): Deryn Guest, Robert E. Goss, Mona West, Thomas Bohache: Books (http://www.amazon.com/Queer-Bible-Commentary-Deryn-Guest/dp/0334040213)

Jude 1:9

WS6
04-29-2012, 18:01
You will defer to man.

Yup.

What has any of that got to do with what the Bible actually says?

Actually, the Bible does support papal primacy.

What are you going to say when you standing before Him trying to explain why the 200 times He said keep the Sabbath holy weren't enough to convince you? What are you going to say? "The Pope said so."

Yup, again.

Step away from the Kool-Aid. It's a trap.

Quit drinking brasso; it's a killer.

Are you still waiting for someone to claim to take the place of Christ? Are you still waiting for someone to change the appointed days? Sabbaths? Laws?

Really?

I'm not waiting for anything except my death or the Second Coming.

Brasso
04-29-2012, 18:17
Well. Alrighty then.

Good luck with that.

WS6
04-29-2012, 18:24
Well. Alrighty then.

Good luck with that.

You take care, Brasso.

WS6
04-29-2012, 18:28
2 Timothy 3:16-17, "<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>All Scripture is God-breathed <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29870AD))'></sup> and is useful for teaching, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29870AE))'></sup> rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29870AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>so that the servant of God<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29871a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29871a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29871AG))'></sup> may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Matthew 4:4, "<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23214b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b)]</sup>”

Deuteronomy 8:3, "<sup> </sup>He humbled <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141E))'></sup> you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141F))'></sup> which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141G))'></sup> you that man does not live on bread <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141H))'></sup> alone but on every word that comes from the mouth <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141I))'></sup> of the Lord."

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26046A))'></sup> and the Word was with God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26046B))'></sup> and the Word was God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26046C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>He was with God in the beginning. <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26047D))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26048E))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>In him was life, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26049F))'></sup> and that life was the light <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26049G))'></sup> of all mankind. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>The light shines in the darkness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26050H))'></sup> and the darkness has not overcome<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26050a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26050a)]</sup> it."

Deuteronomy 4:2, "<sup> </sup>Do not add <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007D))'></sup> to what I command you and do not subtract <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007E))'></sup> from it, but keep <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007F))'></sup> the commands <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5007G))'></sup> of the Lord your God that I give you."

Matthew 15:3, "<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"



You must first define the extent of the inspired canon. How do you know that your quotes are in fact inspired?

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 19:25
You might have a point, if you could make the case for the 'Bible-alone' doctrine. But you won't find that doctrine anywhere in the Bible.

John 17:7 Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee:
17:8 for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received [them], and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil [one].
17:16 They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.
17:17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.

Kingarthurhk
04-30-2012, 17:43
You must first define the extent of the inspired canon. How do you know that your quotes are in fact inspired?

If you don't believe those texts were inspired of God, then you might want of abandon the Christian faith.

Schabesbert
04-30-2012, 17:51
If you don't believe those texts were inspired of God, then you might want of abandon the Christian faith.
You didn't answer the question.

The only real answer is based on the witness of the Church. So, your answer should be extrapolated to add: if you can't rely on the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, you might want to abandon the Christian faith.

Kingarthurhk
04-30-2012, 17:58
You didn't answer the question.

The only real answer is based on the witness of the Church. So, your answer should be extrapolated to add: if you can't rely on the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, you might want to abandon the Christian faith.

No, I follow Christ, not priests, prelates, or popes, i.e. modern pharisees. Just as the original pharisees they have invented doctrines outside of scripture and opressed the people with them.

Brasso
04-30-2012, 18:39
The only real answer is based on the witness of the Church. So, your answer should be extrapolated to add: if you can't rely on the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit, you might want to abandon the Christian faith.

This argument might work on the closed minded, but I know better.

I know that the Word is the Torah and the N.T. just the commentary.

Schabesbert
04-30-2012, 18:55
This argument might work on the closed minded, but I know better.

I know that the Word is the Torah and the N.T. just the commentary.
You just know, eh?


How?

ImpeachObama
04-30-2012, 20:09
This is what it feels like to discuss Christianity with Bert.

Crazy Train (My Dog Dutch) Chases His Tail - YouTube

Round and round and round and round, etc.

ArtificialGrape
04-30-2012, 21:43
Quote-mining for fun and profit... don't believe those texts were inspired... abandon the Christian faith

I've seen enough examples by now that I think I'm getting the hang of it. :supergrin:

-ArtificialGrape

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 05:31
Quote-mining for fun and profit...

I've seen enough examples by now that I think I'm getting the hang of it. :supergrin:

-ArtificialGrape

My point, was to underscore that if you can't accept scripture as inspired, then there is no point of professing Christianity. It is the guide for Christians.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 06:19
This is what it feels like to discuss Christianity with Bert.

Round and round and round and round, etc.
The feeling you're having a hard time describing is cognitive dissonance.

I'm glad you understand the circularity of your arguments. Now, if you'd only follow a more logical path ...

Brasso
05-01-2012, 07:09
You just know, eh?


How

Because I believe my Bible. I don't pass that authority off on a man.

ImpeachObama
05-01-2012, 08:34
Bert, I don't agree with you because the below is just a sampling of your belief system. The same belief system that was forced upon Jan Hus, and attempted on Martin Luther, and many others thru time. Here is an email from your mentor, Jimmy Akin from the Secret Information Club regarding an interview with the previous Pope:

The Rosary is the most popular private devotion in the Catholic Church, particularly in the West.

In honor of the Marian month of May, this Secret Information Club communiqué we offer an "interview" with Blessed John Paul II on the Rosary to help us better understand it and its place in Catholic life.

Q?: Your Holiness, thank you for joining us today. If I may begin with a personal rather than a doctrinal question, what is your own attitude toward the Rosary?

A: The Rosary is my favorite prayer. A marvelous prayer! Marvelous in its simplicity and in its depth. In this prayer we repeat many times the words that the Virgin Mary heard from the Archangel, and from her kinswoman Elizabeth. The whole Church joins in these words.

In fact, against the background of the words "Ave Maria" there pass before the eyes of the soul the main episodes in the life of Jesus Christ.

They are composed altogether of the joyful, sorrowful and glorious mysteries, and they put us in living communion with Jesus through--we could say--his Mother's heart.



Q?: You proclaimed 2003, one of the years of your reign, as a "year of the Rosary." Why did you decide that this was this a timely move?

A: First, the urgent need to counter a certain crisis of the Rosary, which in the present historical and theological context can risk being wrongly devalued, and therefore no longer taught to the younger generation.

There are some who think that the centrality of the Liturgy, rightly stressed by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council, necessarily entails giving lesser importance to the Rosary.

Yet, as Pope Paul VI made clear, not only does this prayer not conflict with the Liturgy, it sustains it, since it serves as an excellent introduction and a faithful echo of the Liturgy, enabling people to participate fully and interiorly in it and to reap its fruits in their daily lives.



Q?: Because the Rosary is associated with Catholicism, some have thought that it might be a hindrance to ecumenical relations with other Christians. What is your view?

Perhaps too, there are some who fear that the Rosary is somehow unecumenical because of its distinctly Marian character.

Yet the Rosary clearly belongs to the kind of veneration of the Mother of God described by the [Second Vatican] Council: a devotion directed to the Christological center of the Christian faith, in such a way that "when the Mother is honored, the Son . . . is duly known, loved and glorified" (Lumen Gentium 66).

If properly revitalized, the Rosary is an aid and certainly not a hindrance to ecumenism!



Q?: Some in the Protestant community object that the Rosary involves "vain repetitions" rather than true contemplation of the mystery of Christ. What do you say?

The Rosary, precisely because it starts with Mary's own experience, is an exquisitely contemplative prayer. Without this contemplative dimension, it would lose its meaning, as Pope Paul VI clearly pointed out:

"Without contemplation, the Rosary is a body without a soul, and its recitation runs the risk of becoming a mechanical repetition of formulas, in violation of the admonition of Christ: 'In praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think they will be heard for their many words' (Mt 6:7). By its nature the recitation of the Rosary calls for a quiet rhythm and a lingering pace, helping the individual to meditate on the mysteries of the Lord's life as seen through the eyes of her who was closest to the Lord. In this way the unfathomable riches of these mysteries are disclosed."

It is worth pausing to consider this profound insight of Paul VI, in order to bring out certain aspects of the Rosary which show that it is really a form of Christocentric [Christ-centered] contemplation.



Q?: In prior years it was common for Catholic families to pray the Rosary together. Is this still valuable today?

The family, the primary cell of society, [is] increasingly menaced by forces of disintegration on both the ideological and practical planes, so as to make us fear for the future of this fundamental and indispensable institution and, with it, for the future of society as a whole.

The revival of the Rosary in Christian families, within the context of a broader pastoral ministry to the family, will be an effective aid to countering the devastating effects of this crisis typical of our age.

Parents are finding it ever more difficult to follow the lives of their children as they grow to maturity. In a society of advanced technology, of mass communications and globalization, everything has become hurried, and the cultural distance between generations is growing ever greater.

To pray the Rosary for children, and even more, with children, training them from their earliest years to experience this daily "pause for prayer" with the family, is admittedly not the solution to every problem, but it is a spiritual aid which should not be underestimated.

Why not try it? With God's help, a pastoral approach to youth that is positive, impassioned and creative--as shown by the World Youth Days!--is capable of achieving quite remarkable results.

If the Rosary is well presented, I am sure that young people will once more surprise adults by the way they make this prayer their own and recite it with the enthusiasm typical of their age group.



Q?: In a move that was controversial in some quarters, you proposed five additional mysteries for contemplation during the Rosary--the "luminous mysteries" in addition to the joyful, sorrowful, and glorious mysteries. Why did you do this?

Of the many mysteries of Christ's life, only a few are indicated by the Rosary in the form that has become generally established with the seal of the Church's approval.

I believe, however, that to bring out fully the Christological depth of the Rosary it would be suitable to make an addition to the traditional pattern which, while left to the freedom of individuals and communities, could broaden it to include the mysteries of Christ's public ministry between his Baptism and his Passion.

Consequently, for the Rosary to become more fully a "compendium of the Gospel", it is fitting to add, following reflection on the Incarnation and the hidden life of Christ (the joyful mysteries) and before focusing on the sufferings of his Passion (the sorrowful mysteries) and the triumph of his Resurrection (the glorious mysteries), a meditation on certain particularly significant moments in his public ministry (the luminous mysteries).

This addition of these new mysteries, without prejudice to any essential aspect of the prayer's traditional format, is meant to give it fresh life and to enkindle renewed interest in the Rosary's place within Christian spirituality as a true doorway to the depths of the Heart of Christ, ocean of joy and of light, of suffering and of glory.


Q?: You make the point that the luminous mysteries are optional--something left to the freedom of individuals and communities. Is there "one" right way to say the Rosary, or are there legitimate variations?

At present, in different parts of the Church, there are many ways to introduce the Rosary. In some places, it is customary to begin with the opening words of Psalm 70: "O God, come to my aid; O Lord, make haste to help me," as if to nourish in those who are praying a humble awareness of their own insufficiency.

In other places, the Rosary begins with the recitation of the Creed, as if to make the profession of faith the basis of the contemplative journey about to be undertaken.

These and similar customs, to the extent that they prepare the mind for contemplation, are all equally legitimate.

The Rosary is then ended with a prayer for the intentions of the Pope, as if to expand the vision of the one praying to embrace all the needs of the Church. It is precisely in order to encourage this ecclesial dimension of the Rosary that the Church has seen fit to grant indulgences to those who recite it with the required dispositions.

If prayed in this way, the Rosary truly becomes a spiritual itinerary in which Mary acts as Mother, Teacher and Guide, sustaining the faithful by her powerful intercession.

Is it any wonder, then, that the soul feels the need, after saying this prayer and experiencing so profoundly the motherhood of Mary, to burst forth in praise of the Blessed Virgin, either in that splendid prayer the Salve Regina or in the Litany of Loreto?

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 08:56
Because I believe my Bible. I don't pass that authority off on a man.
My question was WHY do you believe your Bible? You didn't answer that. IS there an answer?

St. Augustine had an answer:
"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."

In reality, all those who believe in the authority of the Gospel are doing so because of the Catholic Church.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 09:38
My question was WHY do you believe your Bible? You didn't answer that. IS there an answer?

St. Augustine had an answer:
"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."

In reality, all those who believe in the authority of the Gospel are doing so because of the Catholic Church.

I believe in creation because I exist. The Bible speaks of the Creator who meets the needs of my heart.

Creation does not need the authority of Rome to exist.

The Sabbath was set up at the end of creation week for a blessing of man. The Bible speaks of rebellion against the Creator.

I know this is true because of the rebellion and hatred against God and His Sabbath which is a sign of the covenant between God and His people. Those who rebel against the Sabbath are attesting to the hatred they have of God's covenant.

It is only a short time before Jesus will come again and the man of sin will be destroyed.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 09:46
I believe in creation because I exist.
Fine, but a non-sequitor.

Can you answer the question?

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 09:48
The Sabbath was set up at the end of creation week for a blessing of man.
Yes. And the Lord's Day was set up to celebrate the redemption of man, an even greater miracle.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 09:55
Yes. And the Lord's Day was set up to celebrate the redemption of man, an even greater miracle.

Which brings us back to morality. Morality did not change because Jesus was victorious. Morality does not change. God does not change neither does he alter His covenant of morality that He writes in the hearts of those who are willing to be saved.

What you are proposing is like the USA winning the war against the Nazis and then changing the Constitution except that is much more likely than God changing His covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 10:07
Which brings us back to morality. Morality did not change because Jesus was victorious. Morality does not change. God does not change neither does he alter His covenant of morality that He writes in the hearts of those who are willing to be saved.

What you are proposing is like the USA winning the war against the Nazis and then changing the Constitution except that is much more likely than God changing His covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Sabbath-keeping is part of the ceremonial, as opposed to the moral, Law. Setting aside at least a day for God is part of the moral Law.


Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
That's why St. Paul goes to great extents to compare the Law to marriage. A spouse is only bound to the marriage so long as they are alive. We, through baptism, are dead to the old Law.

Ro 7:1 Do you not know, brethren--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only during his life?
2 Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives; but if her husband dies she is discharged from the law concerning the husband.
3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.
5 While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Ga 2:19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God.


Or, do you believe that we are still bound by circumcision, which God calls the sign of His covenant "throughout your generations" (i.e., forever).

Ge 17:11 You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.
12 He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring,
13 both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
14 Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 10:21
Sabbath-keeping is part of the ceremonial, as opposed to the moral, Law. Setting aside at least a day for God is part of the moral Law.



How can you be so blatantly double minded?

Where is the dotted line that you can cut off part of the Ten Commandments written by God Himself?

The Ten Commandments are the Covenant both Old and New Covenant. The ceremonial laws and other laws wer meant for the nation of Israel to do when they went into the promised land. The Bible makes this distinction.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them on two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that you might do them in the land where you go over to possess it.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Bert, wouldn't you like to have God's laws in your mind and heart?

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
24:6 Therefore has the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 10:51
How can you be so blatantly double minded?
Not double-minded at all.

Where is the dotted line that you can cut off part of the Ten Commandments written by God Himself?
You can find out that Jesus never reiterated that the Saturday Sabbath was part of the NEW Covenant.

The Ten Commandments are the Covenant both Old and New Covenant. The ceremonial laws and other laws wer meant for the nation of Israel to do when they went into the promised land.
Sort of. In spirit.

Based on the teachings of Jesus, all of the other nine commandments are still in effect. However, the setting aside of the Saturday worship time is never specificially commanded by Christ. But setting aside time to worship, and to worship corporately, is commanded.

Bert, wouldn't you like to have God's laws in your mind and heart?
Oh, they are.

Now, why are you ignoring what I posted regarding Romans?

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 11:30
Not double-minded at all.


You can find out that Jesus never reiterated that the Saturday Sabbath was part of the NEW Covenant.


Sort of. In spirit.

Based on the teachings of Jesus, all of the other nine commandments are still in effect. However, the setting aside of the Saturday worship time is never specificially commanded by Christ. But setting aside time to worship, and to worship corporately, is commanded.


Oh, they are.

Now, why are you ignoring what I posted regarding Romans?

Are you actually that confused to say that the law has been done away with in one breath and the next to say that only 9 tenths of the law has been done away with?

Quote from Bert on Romans:

'4 Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God.'

Quote from Bert on Jesus teaching:

"Based on the teachings of Jesus, all of the other nine commandments are still in effect. However, the setting aside of the Saturday worship time is never specificially commanded by Christ. But setting aside time to worship, and to worship corporately, is commanded. "

You are confusing the ceremonial law and the Ten Commandments on purpose.

You know that Jesus taught about the Seventh-day Sabbath but are trying to confuse the issue.

Mark 3:4 And he said to them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he said to the man, Stretch forth your hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 12:04
Are you actually that confused to say that the law has been done away with in one breath and the next to say that only 9 tenths of the law has been done away with?
Let's suppose you are cited for speeding in Indiana, but your residence is in Montana. Are you breaking Indiana law or Montana law? You are no longer under the law of Montana.

The OLD Law has been abrogated. Period.
It hapens, though, that Jesus re-instituted all of the moral law (and in actuality strengthened them) in the sermon on the mount and other teachings.

You are confusing the ceremonial law and the Ten Commandments on purpose.
Not confusing them at all.

You know that Jesus taught about the Seventh-day Sabbath but are trying to confuse the issue.

Mark 3:4 And he said to them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace.
3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he said to the man, Stretch forth your hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
Here, Jesus was showing how it's permissible to break the sabbath laws in order to do good. It isn't reinstating them.

Brasso
05-01-2012, 14:05
Because the Torah is God's Word. His Word is eternal. If you don't believe that then whatever you believe is in vain. I could care less what the heretical RCC believes or teaches. If it goes against the Torah, it's garbage.

Just because the RCC was able to compile a list of letter written by the Apostles doesnt give them any authority over what those letters say. It's an absurd notion.

...and before you go making any other absurd declarations, I don't believe the NT is garbage. Only your interpretation of it.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 14:18
Let's suppose you are cited for speeding in Indiana, but your residence is in Montana. Are you breaking Indiana law or Montana law? You are no longer under the law of Montana.

The OLD Law has been abrogated. Period.
It hapens, though, that Jesus re-instituted all of the moral law (and in actuality strengthened them) in the sermon on the mount and other teachings.


Not confusing them at all.


Here, Jesus was showing how it's permissible to break the sabbath laws in order to do good. It isn't reinstating them.

So what you are saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with and since there is no Remember the Sabbath day commandment in the New Testament it is no longer in effect?

Fortunately for me the Sabbath was made in the Garden of Eden for man. I would sure hate to miss out on that blessing. Or are you saying the Sabbath is a curse not a blessing?

Mark 2:27 And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Brasso
05-01-2012, 14:25
The OLD Law has been abrogated. Period.
It hapens, though, that Jesus re-instituted all of the moral law (and in actuality strengthened them) in the sermon on the mount and other teachings.

So much for "...the Law and Prophets" and "...not one jot or tittle" eh?

RCC bunk.

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 19:14
Yes. And the Lord's Day was set up to celebrate the redemption of man, an even greater miracle.

We celebrate the Lord's Day every Sabbath.

Matthew 12;*, "<sup> </sup>For the Son of Man <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23498J))'></sup> is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Jesus declared the Sabbath to the Lord's Day. Yet you have the audacity to tell Jesus He is wrong?

ImpeachObama
05-01-2012, 20:30
And John the Revelator was a Jew who kept the Sabbath as well. That was his and THE Lord's Day.

We jump from thread to thread with the same old arguments.
As I stated in a earlier post, round and round and round and round, etc just like the dog on you tube.

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 20:35
Because I believe my Bible. I don't pass that authority off on a man.

Man wrote the Bible so yes in fact you do.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 20:57
Man wrote the Bible so yes in fact you do.

There were a couple of things written by God.

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The handwriting on the wall judging Babylon

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 21:27
There were a couple of things written by God.

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The handwriting on the wall judging Babylon

So you have done a handwriting analysis of those items or you just chose to believe that? I've got no problem with folks that believe what they believe, I chose to do the same myself. I've got a serious problem with folks that won't admit it. You chose to believe what you believe and if that helps you be a better person then God bless.

But to make absolute statements that God did this or that is looney tunes. And before you come back with some Bible passage that doesn't prove jack, take this into consideration. I don't know but I chose to believe and what I chose, I believe helps me be a better person. I can admit it. Can you?

Schabesbert
05-02-2012, 07:58
So what you are saying is that the Ten Commandments have been done away with and since there is no Remember the Sabbath day commandment in the New Testament it is no longer in effect?

Fortunately for me the Sabbath was made in the Garden of Eden for man. I would sure hate to miss out on that blessing. Or are you saying the Sabbath is a curse not a blessing?

Mark 2:27 And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Indeed, the Sabbath is a blessing. And, in Christ, we have our sabbath rest.

We no longer have just one day for that rest.

Sunday is the fulfillment of the sabbath command (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm):
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

All NT fulfillments are greater than their OT foreshadows. The redemption is greater even then the creation.

Was the Law bad? No. But the NT fulfillment is even greater.

Vic Hays
05-02-2012, 09:20
Indeed, the Sabbath is a blessing. And, in Christ, we have our sabbath rest.

We no longer have just one day for that rest.

Sunday is the fulfillment of the sabbath command (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm):
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

All NT fulfillments are greater than their OT foreshadows. The redemption is greater even then the creation.

Was the Law bad? No. But the NT fulfillment is even greater.

You have figured out a way to philosophize the Sabbath set up by God Himself and made it of no value so that you can honor Him some other way than He asked.

I John 3:4 Whoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
3:5 And you know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
3:6 Whoever stays in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
3:8 He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Schabesbert
05-02-2012, 09:33
You have figured out a way to philosophize the Sabbath set up by God Himself and made it of no value so that you can honor Him some other way than He asked.
Not at all. What I'm doing is following the teachings of the Apostles, St. Paul, and the Church who have been entrusted by Jesus to teach.

Vic, you've got to learn to not be an old wineskin. You are unable to accept the new wine of Christ.

Brasso
05-02-2012, 15:10
Not at all. What I'm doing is following the teachings of the Apostles, St. Paul, and the Church who have been entrusted by Jesus to teach.

Let's see,

There is no Biblical record of a Sunday Sabbath.
There is no historical record of a Sunday Sabbath. (at least not till later on)
There is no biblical statements giving the Apostles the right to change the commandments. In fact, quite the opposite.
Except for Rome, there aren't any churches of that early period keeping a Sunday Sabbath.

So, you are in fact, Full of It.

Schabesbert
05-02-2012, 16:05
Let's see,

There is no Biblical record of a Sunday Sabbath.
That's untrue, but I'll grant that it isn't explicit.

There is no historical record of a Sunday Sabbath. (at least not till later on)
That is absolutely untrue. In fact, there are historical records that are contemporaneous with the writing of the NT itself (i.e. the Didache, and Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Magnesians).

You keep denying history and facts.

There is no biblical statements giving the Apostles the right to change the commandments. In fact, quite the opposite.
Not "change" exactly; just follow the spirit of them.
For instance, baptism replaced circumcision. Circumcision was also a sign of the OLD covenant.

Except for Rome, there aren't any churches of that early period keeping a Sunday Sabbath.
You can deny the truth all you'd care to, but it's still there. Facts are that you're quite wrong. See the Didache and Ignatius, above, for some of the earliest mentions.

So, you are in fact, Full of It.
What a Christian!

randrew379
05-02-2012, 16:59
Indeed, the Sabbath is a blessing. And, in Christ, we have our sabbath rest.

We no longer have just one day for that rest.

Sunday is the fulfillment of the sabbath command (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm):
2176 The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public, and regular worship "as a sign of his universal beneficence to all."109 Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people.

All NT fulfillments are greater than their OT foreshadows. The redemption is greater even then the creation.

Was the Law bad? No. But the NT fulfillment is even greater.

From another post I learned that we have Christianity to thank for modern science. Now I discover it created the two day weekend.

I'm learning alot today.

Kingarthurhk
05-02-2012, 17:01
Not at all. What I'm doing is following the teachings of the Apostles, St. Paul, and the Church who have been entrusted by Jesus to teach.

Vic, you've got to learn to not be an old wineskin. You are unable to accept the new wine of Christ.

No Apostle ever taught that. A relgion that embrassed paganism and became apostate in the 4th century; however, did.

Roering
05-02-2012, 17:44
There were a couple of things written by God.

1. The Ten Commandments

2. The handwriting on the wall judging Babylon

If you believe that all scripture is "God breathed" then couldn't you associate with scripture being written by God?

I always thought it to be the case.

Brasso
05-02-2012, 19:17
Not "change" exactly; just follow the spirit of them.
For instance, baptism replaced circumcision. Circumcision was also a sign of the OLD covenant.

Uh huh. That's why it was given to Abraham, because it's a sign of the Mosaic Covenant?

So tiring.

Everything you post is wrong. Everything. Who has the energy to argue with everything?

aujrb
05-02-2012, 20:45
I thought I would give it a shot as to explaining my understanding of the Sabbath with respect to the New Covenant.

I was having a hard time harmonizing the eternal commandment of the Sabbath with Paul's writings in Colossians 2 that we not to be held to a Sabbath (or festival or new moon, for that matter) because they are all shadows of Christ.

That was until I did a Precept study of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 4 explains everything. (Don't worry, I'm not going to post the whole chapter, just try and explain as concisely as possible.)

Heb 4:3 Those who believe (who are saved, who have repented of their sin & trust in Christ for their salvation) enter into the Sabbath rest of God.

vs 4 God rested on the seventh day of creation.

vs 10 Those who enter God's rest, also rest from their works, as God did from His.

I encourage those who are interested to read Hebrews 3 & 4 to get the full context and see how this ties in with the Isrealites who died wondering the desert.

I'm sorry this post is long, but I really hope this clears things up a bit. (or may have made things worse) The bottom line is:

Those who are saved through repentance and faith, enter the rest of God, therefore they perpetually & eternally keep the Sabbath.

:wavey:

juggy4711
05-02-2012, 21:10
My guess is that all the confusion over the Sabbath has something to do with daylight savings time.

rgregoryb
05-02-2012, 21:16
My guess is that all the confusion over the Sabbath has something to do with daylight savings time.

so, if you live in Arizona you're safe?

Daylight SAVING Time.....no "S" on the end.............:tongueout:

juggy4711
05-02-2012, 22:00
so, if you live in Arizona you're safe?

Daylight SAVING Time.....no "S" on the end.............:tongueout:

My point defeated by a grammatical error. NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! :supergrin:

rgregoryb
05-02-2012, 22:06
My point defeated by a grammatical error. NOOOOOOO!!!!!!! :supergrin:

.........ah, ha...your hopes and dreams dashed upon the rocks of reality.........:supergrin:

juggy4711
05-02-2012, 22:35
.........ah, ha...your hopes and dreams dashed upon the rocks of reality.........:supergrin:

Every point I make from this point forward will be tainted and considered false because of your superior use of the English language. DAMN YOU!!!!! :whistling:

Kingarthurhk
05-03-2012, 05:39
I thought I would give it a shot as to explaining my understanding of the Sabbath with respect to the New Covenant.

I was having a hard time harmonizing the eternal commandment of the Sabbath with Paul's writings in Colossians 2 that we not to be held to a Sabbath (or festival or new moon, for that matter) because they are all shadows of Christ.

That was until I did a Precept study of the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 4 explains everything. (Don't worry, I'm not going to post the whole chapter, just try and explain as concisely as possible.)

Heb 4:3 Those who believe (who are saved, who have repented of their sin & trust in Christ for their salvation) enter into the Sabbath rest of God.

vs 4 God rested on the seventh day of creation.

vs 10 Those who enter God's rest, also rest from their works, as God did from His.

I encourage those who are interested to read Hebrews 3 & 4 to get the full context and see how this ties in with the Isrealites who died wondering the desert.

I'm sorry this post is long, but I really hope this clears things up a bit. (or may have made things worse) The bottom line is:

Those who are saved through repentance and faith, enter the rest of God, therefore they perpetually & eternally keep the Sabbath.

:wavey:

Yes, Hebrews 4 tells us of obtaining spritual rest in Christ, and physical rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath. It in no way sets aside the Sabbath, but, rather confirms it.

Brasso
05-03-2012, 06:41
Hebrews is about the Levitical Priesthood. The rest spoken of here is the rest of assurance of salvation thru grace and obedience, as opposed to the way they grieved Him by not having faith. Walking in His Way is called the Way of Liberty by David. Where do you get this stuff?

People seem to forget that the Apostles and Messiah Himself spent the better part of their lives teaching the New Covenant with no help from the N.T. at all. None.

Everything they taught came from the Tanach. So as inspired and great a teaching tool the N.T. may be, it's not necessary to preach the Gospel. You keep forgetting this. And everything they taught is backed up in the Tenach. Paul even commended the Bereans for making sure that everything he taught them could be supported in the Tenach.

Now, you go find me a Sunday Sabbath in there please. Or any change to the Sabbath at all.

Double Dog Dare Ya.

If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

rgregoryb
05-03-2012, 10:29
If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

cause they didn't have the internet.........

Roering
05-03-2012, 17:42
so, if you live in Arizona you're safe?

From what I've been reading, not if you live below the 8. Them's been turned back into injun country.

Vic Hays
05-04-2012, 14:46
If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

They "think" they can. This is another fulfillment of prophecy.

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

aujrb
05-04-2012, 20:06
Yes, Hebrews 4 tells us of obtaining spritual rest in Christ,

I agree.

and physical rest on the Seventh Day Sabbath.

Respectfully disagree. Please quote the verse in Hebrews 4 that says this and explain the verse in its context.


It in no way sets aside the Sabbath, but, rather confirms it.

If you mean a Sabbath as resting from your works as God did from His, then I agree. If you mean observing the Sabbath on a particular day of the week, then no. That was kind of the whole point of my post.

aujrb
05-04-2012, 20:54
Hebrews is about the Levitical Priesthood.

Hebrews is not just about the Levitical Priesthood. A large part of it is how the Levical Priesthood is no longer necessary because we have Jesus as our high priest, and not a mortal man.


The rest spoken of here is the rest of assurance of salvation thru grace and obedience, as opposed to the way they grieved Him by not having faith. Walking in His Way is called the Way of Liberty by David.


What verse is that?


Where do you get this stuff?



Just reading and studying my Bible


People seem to forget that the Apostles and Messiah Himself spent the better part of their lives teaching the New Covenant with no help from the N.T. at all. None.


IF by N.T. you mean New Testament, then I don't understand your statement. Testament and Covenant have the exact same meaning. They are both used by English translators of the Koine Greek word diatheke.

It's like your saying they taught the New Covenant with no help from the New Covenant or New Testament with no help from the New Testament.


Everything they taught came from the Tanach. So as inspired and great a teaching tool the N.T. may be, it's not necessary to preach the Gospel.


Really? Huh.... Not sure if I agree with that statement.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider the NT and OT equally inspired? Do you consider the New Testament Scripture?


You keep forgetting this.


I do? Have we talked about this before?


And everything they taught is backed up in the Tenach. Paul even commended the Bereans for making sure that everything he taught them could be supported in the Tenach.


You may want to read Acts 17 a little bit closer. Paul wasn't quoted commending the Bereans. It was the author of the book describing the Bereans as being noble minded for examining Scripture.


Now, you go find me a Sunday Sabbath in there please. Or any change to the Sabbath at all.

Double Dog Dare Ya.


There is no Sunday Sabbath. There's no Saturday Sabbath either.

The Sabbath of the New Testament (or New Covenant if you wish) is different than the Sabbath of the Old Testament (Covenant).

It is the same in that there is a rest from works. (4:9) It's how you rest from your works. It's the application. OT, rest one day of the week. NT, rest with saving faith.

That was the whole point of the post.


If the Apostles didn't have chutzpa to change God's Laws, what makes you think you can?

Where in my post does it convey the idea that I think I have any authority to change God's Laws? I was just explaining to everybody what the text says.

I mean it's right there. It's hard to miss.

I don't think the 4th commandment in itself has changed, but the observation of the commandment has.

Who changed the observation? The author of Hebrews or more accurately, the Holy Spirit. Not me.

Kingarthurhk
05-04-2012, 21:25
I agree.



Respectfully disagree. Please quote the verse in Hebrews 4 that says this and explain the verse in its context.



If you mean a Sabbath as resting from your works as God did from His, then I agree. If you mean observing the Sabbath on a particular day of the week, then no. That was kind of the whole point of my post.

Hebrews 4:8-11, "<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>For if Joshua had given them rest, <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30023H))'></sup> God would not have spoken <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30023I))'></sup> later about another day. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30025e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30025e)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30025J))'></sup> just as God did from his. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30025K))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."

The Sabbath is still in effect for God's people. As you, say, it's right there, and it's hard to miss.

Vic Hays
05-04-2012, 21:30
There is no Sunday Sabbath. There's no Saturday Sabbath either.

The Sabbath of the New Testament (or New Covenant if you wish) is different than the Sabbath of the Old Testament (Covenant).

It is the same in that there is a rest from works. (4:9) It's how you rest from your works. It's the application. OT, rest one day of the week. NT, rest with saving faith.

That was the whole point of the post.



Where in my post does it convey the idea that I think I have any authority to change God's Laws? I was just explaining to everybody what the text says.

I mean it's right there. It's hard to miss.

I don't think the 4th commandment in itself has changed, but the observation of the commandment has.

Who changed the observation? The author of Hebrews or more accurately, the Holy Spirit. Not me.

aujrb

You would have a good point except for the fact that God made the Seventh day holy before there were any covenants at all. The Seventh day was made holy before sin came into the world. The Sabbath was made for man and it was the first whole day that Adam experienced.
The Sabbath will be holy in the New Earth also.

When did the Sabbath lose its holiness and why will it be holy in the New Earth?

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

Foxterriermom
05-04-2012, 21:45
The apostles never preached that anything from the Old Testament was done away with - imagine the the field day the Pharisees and Sadducees would have had with that!! They would certainly have been up in arms if that were the case. Instead, the biggest complaint that they had with them was they preached that Yeshua was the Messiah. You can be certain if the apostles claimed that the Sabbath had been changed, the religious authorities would have been crying a huge foul over that alone and using that as a proving point why Yeshua could not be the Son of God.

No man has the anthority to change a commandment that YHWH Himself established for all generations as an everlasting covenant. The 7th day Sabbath is a sign of His set-apart people.

Brasso
05-05-2012, 08:32
Walking in His Way is called the Way of Liberty by David.
What verse is that?

Psa_119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

It's like your saying they taught the New Covenant with no help from the New Covenant or New Testament with no help from the New Testament.

It's not contradictory at all. The entire Tenach is about Messiah.

Psa_40:7 Then I said, “See, I have come; In the scroll of the Book it is prescribed for me.

It may seem strange to a person who has thrown the Law out the window, but it is true. Unless you don't believe the N.T. either.

Act 17:11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonike, who received the word with great eagerness, and searched the Scriptures daily, if these words were so.

Just out of curiosity, do you consider the NT and OT equally inspired? Do you consider the New Testament Scripture?

Yes I do. Do you? Because your words don't seem to support the idea. God does not change. Yet, you seem to think He does.

You may want to read Acts 17 a little bit closer. Paul wasn't quoted commending the Bereans. It was the author of the book describing the Bereans as being noble minded for examining Scripture.

OK. Same point.

There is no Sunday Sabbath. There's no Saturday Sabbath either.

The Sabbath of the New Testament (or New Covenant if you wish) is different than the Sabbath of the Old Testament (Covenant).

It is the same in that there is a rest from works. (4:9) It's how you rest from your works. It's the application. OT, rest one day of the week. NT, rest with saving faith.

That was the whole point of the post.

That would make sense if the Torah and the covenant were the same thing. But they aren't.

"To the Torah AND the Testimony....." Two things. Even Adam and Eve had a testimony.

Gen 3:21 And יהוה Elohim made coats of skin for the man and his wife and dressed them.

Heb_9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Who changed the observation? The author of Hebrews or more accurately, the Holy Spirit. Not me.

Once again you are mistaken. Hebrews is not about the Sabbath. It's not even about the Torah. It's about the priesthood.

And once again, you seem to think that God changes His mind when He has already said He doesn't.

You may want to think about this. God says He never changes. You say He does. One of you is wrong.

Kingarthurhk
05-05-2012, 16:53
BREAKING NEWS!! SUNDAY LAW HAS BEGUN! - YouTube

Kingarthurhk
05-05-2012, 17:17
C.D. Brooks on the Seventh-day Sabbath - YouTube

Kingarthurhk
05-05-2012, 17:29
CD Brooks - The New Testament Sabbath (1978) - YouTube

rgregoryb
05-06-2012, 07:12
this is almost approaching idolatry on this sabbath stuff

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 08:29
this is almost approaching idolatry on this sabbath stuff

Well, 99 percent of Christian Churches are against that, except one.

Schabesbert
05-06-2012, 09:54
this is almost approaching idolatry on this sabbath stuff
Yes. :agree:

Well, 99 percent of Christian Churches are against that, except one.
You must mean the SDA, right?

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 10:26
Yes. :agree:


You must mean the SDA, right?

No, I don't.

http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2011/07/06/Attendance-soars-at-Virgin-Mary-shrine-in-Wis-QF757JM-x-large.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wEiXRKSU1AE/Rm3fYo0w0PI/AAAAAAAAAA8/UV_pYmBptwM/s400/StPeterOfTheToe.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/artbook1611/mary.jpg

This is what God said, and wrote with His own finger:

Exodus 20:4-6, "You shall not make for yourself an image <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2056I))'></sup> in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>You shall not bow down to them or worship <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057J))'></sup> them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057K))'></sup> punishing the children for the sin of the parents <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057L))'></sup> to the third and fourth generation <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057M))'></sup> of those who hate me, <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>but showing love to a thousand <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2058N))'></sup> generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

WS6
05-06-2012, 11:27
http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2011/07/06/Attendance-soars-at-Virgin-Mary-shrine-in-Wis-QF757JM-x-large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/artbook1611/mary.jpg

Nice pictures of some folks, who are certainly with the program (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Luke&chapno=1&startverse=48&endverse=).

aujrb
05-06-2012, 12:14
The Sabbath is still in effect for God's people. As you, say, it's right there, and it's hard to miss.


Since you placed verse 11 in bold, then I assume that's your scriptural evidence to support you assertion. I used that text,too. So we must have differences about it's context. Let's explore the text.

The text says "enter that rest". Is that the same meaning and context as "enter my rest" & "enter God's rest" used in other verses of chapter 4?

If so, what does "enter that rest" mean?

These are honest questions, I'm just trying to understand what you believe.

muscogee
05-06-2012, 12:51
No, I don't.

http://i.usatoday.net/news/_photos/2011/07/06/Attendance-soars-at-Virgin-Mary-shrine-in-Wis-QF757JM-x-large.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wEiXRKSU1AE/Rm3fYo0w0PI/AAAAAAAAAA8/UV_pYmBptwM/s400/StPeterOfTheToe.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/artbook1611/mary.jpg

This is what God said, and wrote with His own finger:

Exodus 20:4-6, "You shall not make for yourself an image <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2056I))'></sup> in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>You shall not bow down to them or worship <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057J))'></sup> them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057K))'></sup> punishing the children for the sin of the parents <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057L))'></sup> to the third and fourth generation <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2057M))'></sup> of those who hate me, <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>but showing love to a thousand <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-2058N))'></sup> generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

God reversed himself a short time later when the Hebrews ran into a snake plague. He told the Hebrews to make an effigy of a snake and hold it up to keep the snakes away. God can't seem to make up his mind.

aujrb
05-06-2012, 13:51
aujrb

You would have a good point except for the fact that God made the Seventh day holy before there were any covenants at all. The Seventh day was made holy before sin came into the world. The Sabbath was made for man and it was the first whole day that Adam experienced.
The Sabbath will be holy in the New Earth also.

When did the Sabbath lose its holiness and why will it be holy in the New Earth?

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, said the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, said the LORD.

Hi Vic,

I believe the questions you pose are good and honest questions that I will try and answer. I hope you will answer my questions.

When did the Sabbath lose it holiness? The Sabbath-day lost it's holiness the day Jesus died.

His death upon the cross ushered in the new covenant, Heb 9.
The "Sabbath", or "rest" in Hebrew, is entered into upon salvation, Heb 4.

Why will the Sabbath be holy in the New Earth?

Where does it say in Isaiah 66:23 that the Sabbath is holy?
The Sabbath here used as a time marker, just like the new moon is. Isaiah is essentially saying, "there will be one day, that month to month, week to week, every living thing will worship me, says the Lord."

(That's a rough paraphrase, I'm no Hebrew translator.:supergrin:)

If you don't mind I have a couple of questions, too.

If the seventh day of the week was holy since creation, why does God wait until Israel is wondering in the wilderness to call for it's observance? I find no where in Scripture that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob was commanded to observe the holy day. Nor was Israel required to observe the Sabbath the entire time they were in Egypt.

If the Scriptural evidence is there, would you please point me to it.

Also, if the Sabbath-day (Saturday) observance is holy, why did the Apostle Paul not require it's observance in Colossians 2? He says no one is to sit in judgement of Christians concerning Laws of the Old Covenant (festivals, new moons, foods, or sabbaths). I know you harmonize this verse with your beliefs, I just don't know how.

Thanks! :wavey:

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 14:12
God reversed himself a short time later when the Hebrews ran into a snake plague. He told the Hebrews to make an effigy of a snake and hold it up to keep the snakes away. God can't seem to make up his mind.

Numbers 21:4-9, "
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>They traveled from Mount Hor <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4345H))'></sup> along the route to the Red Sea,<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-4345c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-4345c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4345I))'></sup> to go around Edom. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4345J))'></sup> But the people grew impatient on the way; <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4345K))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>they spoke against God <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4346L))'></sup> and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4346M))'></sup> to die in the wilderness? <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4346N))'></sup> There is no bread! There is no water! <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4346O))'></sup> And we detest this miserable food!” <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4346P))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Then the Lord sent venomous snakes <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4347Q))'></sup> among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4347R))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The people came to Moses <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4348S))'></sup> and said, “We sinned <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4348T))'></sup> when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4348U))'></sup> will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4348V))'></sup> for the people.

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4349W))'></sup> anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>So Moses made a bronze snake <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-4350X))'></sup> and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived."

John 3:10-14, "<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>“You are Israel’s teacher,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26131L))'></sup> said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26132M))'></sup> and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26132N))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>No one has ever gone into heaven <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26134O))'></sup> except the one who came from heaven <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26134P))'></sup> —the Son of Man.<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26134e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26134e)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26134Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26135R))'></sup> so the Son of Man must be lifted up,<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26135f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26135f)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26135S))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>that everyone who believes <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26136T))'></sup> may have eternal life in him.”<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26136g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26136g)]</sup>

Notice there is no worshiping going on of a graven image. Further notice that Jeus explains it represents Himself and his redemption by taking the sin of the people and being lifted up, as He would be on the cross.

Galatains 3:13-14, "<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29116V))'></sup> by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29116h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29116h)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29116W))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29117X))'></sup> so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit."

This references Deuteronomy 21:23-23, "If someone guilty of a capital offense <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5470AA))'></sup> is put to death and their body is exposed on a pole, <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5471AB))'></sup> Be sure to bury <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5471AC))'></sup> it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5471AD))'></sup> You must not desecrate <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5471AE))'></sup> the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance."

So, Christ was liften up on a pole, as predicted and took for us the curse of sin.

What better analogy for sin, and its destructive power than this?

Genesis 3:1-5, "Now the serpent <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-57A))'></sup> was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’? <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-57B))'></sup> ”
<sup class="versenum">2 </sup>The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-58C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’” <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-59D))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-60E))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-61F))'></sup> knowing good and evil.”

So, we see Satan in the guise of a serpent lying to the first people of the world telling them that their act of rebellion would not result in death. Sin does result in death.

So, what better analogy then the Israelites turning away from their faith in God, being bitten by snakes as was foretold in the beginning:

Genesis 3:15, "And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-71a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-71a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-71W))'></sup> and hers; <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-71X))'></sup>
he will crush<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-71b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-71b)]</sup> your head, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-71Y))'></sup>
and you will strike his heel.”

God desribes His relationship with His people as Him in the male and they in the female. This can be seen repeatedly throughout scripture from the analogy to his relationship with Israel, to Him being a bridegroom of his church.

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 14:16
Nice pictures of some folks, who are certainly with the program (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=citation&book=Luke&chapno=1&startverse=48&endverse=).

Since when does idolatry and worship of idols in clear violation of the Second Commandment have anything to do with what you linked?

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 14:49
Hi Vic,

I believe the questions you pose are good and honest questions that I will try and answer. I hope you will answer my questions.

When did the Sabbath lose it holiness? The Sabbath-day lost it's holiness the day Jesus died.

Please point on in scripture where this occurred? There is no scripture. Rather, there is scripture pointing out that Jesus kept the Sabbath even in death.

Mark 15:42-46, "<sup> </sup>It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24869AL))'></sup> So as evening approached, <sup class="versenum">43 </sup>Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24870AM))'></sup> who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24870AN))'></sup> went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. <sup class="versenum">44 </sup>Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. <sup class="versenum">45 </sup>When he learned from the centurion <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24872AO))'></sup> that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. <sup class="versenum">46 </sup>So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24873AP))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">47 </sup>Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24874AQ))'></sup> saw where he was laid."

The Gospels were written well after Jesus had ascended and went to heaven. So, clearly, they are documenting the Sabbath as still being observed. Otherwise, they would have documented a new day after the resurrection, wouldn't they? They did not.

Matthew 28:1, "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24197B))'></sup> and the other Mary <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24197C))'></sup> went to look at the tomb."

Mark 16:1-8, "When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24875B))'></sup> so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24877C))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24879D))'></sup> sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24880E))'></sup> who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24881F))'></sup> just as he told you.’” <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24881G))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.<sup>"</sup>
<sup></sup>
<sup>Clearly, if He had a new Commandment then He could have declared it then. He did not. Further, the writers of the Gospels, again, many years after Christ's ascention did not doucment such a change either.</sup>




His death upon the cross ushered in the new covenant, Heb 9.
The "Sabbath", or "rest" in Hebrew, is entered into upon salvation, Heb 4.

Again, Hebrews 4 does not support that ascertion, and neither does the Gospel account.


Why will the Sabbath be holy in the New Earth?

Where does it say in Isaiah 66:23 that the Sabbath is holy?
The Sabbath here used as a time marker, just like the new moon is. Isaiah is essentially saying, "there will be one day, that month to month, week to week, every living thing will worship me, says the Lord."

(That's a rough paraphrase, I'm no Hebrew translator.:supergrin:)


It not only marks times, but demonstrates the future worship of God on the Sabbath as it was done at creation in the earth made new.



If you don't mind I have a couple of questions, too.

If the seventh day of the week was holy since creation, why does God wait until Israel is wondering in the wilderness to call for it's observance? I find no where in Scripture that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob was commanded to observe the holy day. Nor was Israel required to observe the Sabbath the entire time they were in Egypt.

If the Scriptural evidence is there, would you please point me to it.

I would be happyt to, in fact let me show you other examples of God's law mentioned before Sinai, and before God came down and spoke the 10 Commandments and wrote it with his own finger on tablets of stone:


Genesis 9:6, “<sup>6</sup> “Whoeversheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.”

Here we see the 6<sup>th</sup> Commandment long before Sinai.

Job 1:8, “<sup>8</sup> Then the LORDsaid to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earthlike him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Job 24:13-17, “<sup>13</sup> “Thereare those who rebel against the light,
who do not know its ways
or stay in its paths.
<sup>14</sup> When daylight is gone, themurderer rises up,
kills the poor and needy,
and in the night steals forth like a thief.
<sup>15</sup> The eye of the adultererwatches for dusk;
he thinks, ‘No eye will see me,’
and he keeps his face concealed.
<sup>16</sup> In the dark, thieves breakinto houses,
but by day they shut themselves in;
they want nothing to do with the light.
<sup>17</sup> For all of them, midnight is their morning;
they make friends with the terrors of darkness.”

Here we see the 6<sup>th</sup> Commandment, the 7<sup>th</sup> Commandment,and the 8<sup>th</sup> Commandment long before Sinai.

Genesis 20:1-6, “<sup>1</sup> Now Abraham moved onfrom there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. Fora while he stayed in Gerar, <sup>2</sup> and there Abraham said of his wifeSarah, “She is my sister.” Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and tookher. <o:p></o:p>

<sup>3</sup> But Godcame to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, “You are as good as deadbecause of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>4</sup> NowAbimelek had not gone near her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocentnation? <sup>5</sup> Did he not say to me, ‘She is my sister,’ and didn’t shealso say, ‘He is my brother’? I have done this with a clear conscience andclean hands.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>6</sup> Then Godsaid to him in the dream, “Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience,and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let youtouch her. <sup>7</sup> Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and hewill pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may besure that you and all who belong to you will die.”<o:p></o:p>

Long before Sinai, God was very serious about the 7<sup>th</sup>Commandment.<o:p></o:p>

Genesis 35:2-5, “<sup>2</sup>So Jacob said to his household and to all who were with him, “Get ridof the foreign gods you have with you, and purify yourselves and change yourclothes. <sup>3</sup> Then come, let us go up to Bethel, where I will build analtar to God, who answered me in the day of my distress and who has been withme wherever I have gone.” <sup>4</sup> So they gave Jacob all the foreign godsthey had and the rings in their ears, and Jacob buried them under the oak atShechem. <sup>5</sup> Then they set out, and the terror of God fell on thetowns all around them so that no one pursued them.”

Herewe see Jacob telling those among his household to observe the 1<sup>st</sup>and 2cnd Commandments long before Sinai.

Genesis 2:1-3, “<sup>1</sup> Thus theheavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. <o:p></o:p>

<sup>2</sup> By the seventh day Godhad finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested fromall his work. <sup>3</sup> Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy,because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.”

Here we see the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment at the foundation of creationlong before Sinai, and even before sin entered the world.

Exodus 5:4-5, “<sup>4 </sup>Then the king of Egypt said to them, “Mosesand Aaron, why do you take the people from their work? Get back to yourlabor.” <sup>5 </sup>And Pharaoh said, “Look, the people of the land aremany now, and you make them restfrom their labor!”<o:p></o:p>

The term “rest” used by Pharaoh in theoriginal language is built on the word Sabbath. This was well before Sinai, and evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup>Commandment observance.<o:p></o:p>

Exodus 16:4-5, “<sup>4</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “I will raindown bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gatherenough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they willfollow my instructions. <sup>5</sup> On the sixth day they are to prepare whatthey bring in, and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-30, “<sup>21</sup>Eachmorning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, itmelted away. <sup>22</sup> On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—twoomers<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1970b)<sup>]</sup> for each person—and theleaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. <sup>23</sup> He saidto them, “This is what the LORD commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbathrest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil whatyou want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>24</sup> So they saved it untilmorning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. <sup>25</sup>“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the LORD. You willnot find any of it on the ground today. <sup>26</sup> Six days you are togather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.” <o:p></o:p>

<sup>27</sup> Nevertheless, some ofthe people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. <sup>28</sup>Then the LORD said to Moses, “How long will you<sup>[</sup><sup>c</sup> (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2016&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1976c)<sup>]</sup> refuse to keep my commands andmy instructions? <sup>29</sup> Bear in mind that the LORD has given you theSabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyoneis to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” <sup>30</sup>So the people rested on the seventh day.”

Here we have more evidence of the 4<sup>th</sup> Commandment well beforeSinai.


Also, if the Sabbath-day (Saturday) observance is holy, why did the Apostle Paul not require it's observance in Colossians 2? He says no one is to sit in judgement of Christians concerning Laws of the Old Covenant (festivals, new moons, foods, or sabbaths). I know you harmonize this verse with your beliefs, I just don't know how.

Thanks! :wavey:

He said sabbaths, not The Sabbath.

On the Left God's 7th Day Sabbath on the Right ceremonial sabbaths

<table border="1" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="2" width="590"><tbody><tr class="trbottom"><td>Spoken by God personally - (Exodus 20:1, 8-11)</td><td>Spoken by Moses - (Exodus 24:3)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>Written in stone by God Himself - (Exodus 31:18)</td><td>Written by Moses hand on paper - (Exodus 24:4)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>Placed inside the Ark of the covenant - (Deu 10:5)</td><td>Stored on the outside of the Ark - (Deu 31:26)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>Breaking the Sabbath is sin - (1 John 3:4)</td><td>These were kept because of sin - (See Leviticus)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>It is a law of love - (Mat 22:35-40, Isaiah 58:13-14)</td><td>They were not love - (Colossians 2:14, Gal 4:9-10)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>It is a law of liberty (freedom) - (James 1:25, 2:10-12)</td><td>They were bondage - (Galatians 4:9-10, Col 2:14)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>Was established before sin - (Genesis 2:1-3)</td><td>Were established after sin - (Exodus 20:24)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>Was made at creation - (Genesis 2:1-3)</td><td>Were made after Sinai - (Exodus 20:24)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>The Sabbath is for everyone - (Mark 2:27)</td><td>Only for the children of Israel & Jews - (Read Bible)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>God calls it MY Sabbath - (Exodus 31:13, Eze 20:20)</td><td>God calls it HER sabbaths - (Hosea 2:11, Lam 1:7)</td></tr><tr class="trbottom"><td>The Sabbath is eternal - (Psa 111:7-8, Isa 66:22-23)</td><td>Were nailed to the cross - (Col 2:14, Eph 2:15)</td></tr></tbody></table>

Unfortunately, the parser won't let me continue on due to character length, so I will direct you to a link:

http://www.ceremoniallaw.com/

Schabesbert
05-06-2012, 15:33
God reversed himself a short time later when the Hebrews ran into a snake plague. He told the Hebrews to make an effigy of a snake and hold it up to keep the snakes away. God can't seem to make up his mind.
Not really. That is, if you look at what God had intended from the start. He intended that the Israelites be forbidden from worshipping idols.

Scriptural eisegesis is critical, and people like Kingarthurhk can certainly cause much confusion due to their lack of scriptural knowledge. Well, actually, that's not quite true. To paraphrase Pres. Reagan: Well, the trouble with our friends Kingarthurhk is not that he's ignorant; it's just that he knows so much that isn't so.

WS6
05-06-2012, 15:41
Since when does idolatry and worship of idols in clear violation of the Second Commandment have anything to do with what you linked?

Why is it that you can only define your mean-spirited religiosity in terms of how it is not Catholic?

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 17:00
Why is it that you can only define your mean-spirited religiosity in terms of how it is not Catholic?

Ironic, considering yourself and Bert are two of the most mean spirited particpants in this particular part of the forum. You come with invective and anger and insult, but very little scripture.

Bert accused us of idolatry by aserting that God's commandments still exist. I merely pointed out what idolatry is and how it is currently practiced in Christianity and how it violates the Second Commandment from scripture.

Why do you find scripture so offensive?

Brasso
05-06-2012, 17:11
Why is it that you can only define your mean-spirited religiosity in terms of how it is not Catholic?

Because the catholic church is a wolf in sheeps clothing. It is the object of Daniels vision. If you guys would just stop putting out heretical theology (i.e. posting catholic doctrine), we wouldn't have to keep posting Scripture that refutes it.

I can only post the various hundreds of passages where God states His Torah is forever. Eternal. To be kept throughout our generations. A perpetual covenant. Till heaven and earth pass away...

...so many times before there just isn't any point to it anymore. It's obvious you just don't care.

Schabesbert
05-07-2012, 07:02
Because the catholic church is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Interesting way to describe the Church that Jesus built.

It is the object of Daniels vision.
False conclusion based on rampant misinterpretation.

If you guys would just stop putting out heretical theology (i.e. posting catholic doctrine), we wouldn't have to keep posting Scripture that refutes it.
This hasn't happened yet, although you TRY to refute it.

I can only post the various hundreds of passages where God states His Torah is forever. Eternal. To be kept throughout our generations. A perpetual covenant. Till heaven and earth pass away...
Which is why it took St. Paul so long to harmonize his new revelation of the New Covenant with what he as Saul was fighting against.

You are still trying to understand Saul's theology. Sorry, but he has moved on as St. Paul.

You are certainly an old wineskin.
Don't be a sad sack.

Vic Hays
05-07-2012, 11:13
Hi Vic,

If you don't mind I have a couple of questions, too.

If the seventh day of the week was holy since creation, why does God wait until Israel is wondering in the wilderness to call for it's observance? I find no where in Scripture that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob was commanded to observe the holy day. Nor was Israel required to observe the Sabbath the entire time they were in Egypt.

If the Scriptural evidence is there, would you please point me to it.

Also, if the Sabbath-day (Saturday) observance is holy, why did the Apostle Paul not require it's observance in Colossians 2? He says no one is to sit in judgement of Christians concerning Laws of the Old Covenant (festivals, new moons, foods, or sabbaths). I know you harmonize this verse with your beliefs, I just don't know how.

Thanks! :wavey:

First of all God made the 7th day holy. There is no mention of it being unholy and the book of Hebrews says that it remains. The word translated rest is keeping of a Sabbath. I do agree that the symbolism is of resting in the care of God, however, the Tree of Life is also symbolic of Jesus. Does that mean there is no literal Tree of Life? Hebrews says "there remaineth". That doesn't mean that the 7th day Sabbath has been abolished.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Lets Get some definitions straight:

As far as what was done away with, the Old Covenant was done away with and replaced with the New Covenant. The Bible is more explicit about what was done away with elsewhere. It says that the handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross. These ceremonial sabbaths were done away with. The Book of the Law was not the Covenant.

Colossians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

We can see that the language of Colossians is taken from the OT.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

The Old Covenant was not against anybody.

What is the Covenant and what are the ordinances? The Ten Commandments are the Covenant. The Book of the Law was statutes and judgments for the nation of Israel to follow in the new land.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? The laws have not changed. They are to be written on the heart not stone.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Roering
05-07-2012, 11:29
Why is it that you can only define your mean-spirited religiosity in terms of how it is not Catholic?

This is why. Read The Great Controversy.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_OBqGz6czloI/TT5QfH7c9mI/AAAAAAAAAIo/lYQH3qdMW1c/s1600/ellen_white.jpg

Brasso
05-07-2012, 11:58
Colossians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

This means our sins. Chirographon Trois Dogmasin. Our "Rap Sheet". What we are charged with breaking.

Yes. Our sins were against us. This is not speaking of the Law. Nomos, the word for Law, isn't written in the entire Book of Collosians.

Toran AND the Testimony. How many times? Tell me, what is the Testimony of the Mosaic Covenant?

Messiah is the Testimony of the Renewed Covenant. What was the Testimony of the Mosaic Covenant? What is Isaiah referring to? What was put into place in the Mosaic Covenant to take the place of Messiah till He came? What was added to the Abrahamic Covenant 430 years later? What is the Book of Hebrews talking about?

I'll give you a hint. The answer to all the above questions is the same.

Kingarthurhk
05-07-2012, 15:49
This is why. Read The Great Controversy.


Have you? If not, I can hep thw that.

http://www.greatcontroversy.net/

Vic Hays
05-07-2012, 16:37
This means our sins. Chirographon Trois Dogmasin. Our "Rap Sheet". What we are charged with breaking.

Yes. Our sins were against us. This is not speaking of the Law. Nomos, the word for Law, isn't written in the entire Book of Collosians.




What does the word ordinances mean? Hardly a list of sins.

Colossians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Why were these ordinances added? "Because of transgressions." You can't transgress something that does not exist. These were the ordinances given to Moses who is the mediator spoken of in this verse:

Galatians 3:19 Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

aujrb
05-07-2012, 20:30
Wow, King....that was a doozy of a post. But unfortunately, time and my attention span doesn't allow me the ability to go through and respond to every single point you have in your post.

I like to keep things in manageable portions. Since you were answering the questions I asked Vic, let's start with the one I asked you, please. Here's my question so you don't have to go looking for it.

Thanks!:wavey:


Since you placed verse 11 in bold, then I assume that's your scriptural evidence to support you assertion. I used that text,too. So we must have differences about it's context. Let's explore the text.

The text says "enter that rest". Is that the same meaning and context as "enter my rest" & "enter God's rest" used in other verses of chapter 4?

If so, what does "enter that rest" mean?

These are honest questions, I'm just trying to understand what you believe.

aujrb
05-07-2012, 20:57
First of all God made the 7th day holy. There is no mention of it being unholy and the book of Hebrews says that it remains. The word translated rest is keeping of a Sabbath. I do agree that the symbolism is of resting in the care of God, however, the Tree of Life is also symbolic of Jesus. Does that mean there is no literal Tree of Life? Hebrews says "there remaineth". That doesn't mean that the 7th day Sabbath has been abolished.

Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Lets Get some definitions straight:

As far as what was done away with, the Old Covenant was done away with and replaced with the New Covenant. The Bible is more explicit about what was done away with elsewhere. It says that the handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross. These ceremonial sabbaths were done away with. The Book of the Law was not the Covenant.

Colossians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

We can see that the language of Colossians is taken from the OT.

Deuteronomy 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.

The Old Covenant was not against anybody.

What is the Covenant and what are the ordinances? The Ten Commandments are the Covenant. The Book of the Law was statutes and judgments for the nation of Israel to follow in the new land.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

What is the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? The laws have not changed. They are to be written on the heart not stone.

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.


Did I understand you correctly? The Old Covenant was completely different than the Book of the Law?

With the Book of the Law being about foods, laws, sacrifice system, the tabernacle, etc?

The Old Covenant only being the 10 Commandments written in stone?

The New Covenant only being the 10 Commandments written on the heart?

Do I understand correctly?

Vic Hays
05-07-2012, 22:51
Did I understand you correctly? The Old Covenant was completely different than the Book of the Law?

With the Book of the Law being about foods, laws, sacrifice system, the tabernacle, etc?

The Old Covenant only being the 10 Commandments written in stone?

The New Covenant only being the 10 Commandments written on the heart?

Do I understand correctly?

That is what the Bible says. The only difference is that the Old Covenant was written on stone by the finger of God. The New Covenant is to be written in the heart by the finger of God. Morality has not changed or been done away with.

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Deuteronomy 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

II Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not on tables of stone, but on fleshly tables of the heart.

Revelation 11:19 And there was opened the temple of God that is in heaven; and there was seen in his temple the ark of his covenant; and there followed lightnings, and voices, and thunders, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The Ten Commandments are called the Law of Liberty in the New Testament. God spoke them and wrote them Himself. James seems to think that they are still in effect.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery; said also, Do not kill. Now if thou committest no adultery, yet if thou killest, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Brasso
05-08-2012, 06:16
Colossians 2:14 having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

The words are "chirographon trois dogmasin". This is a written list of laws. It was the same thing nailed to the top of Yeshua's execution stake. "King of the Jews". It is a list of charges. Broken laws.

It is not the Torah.

Galatians 3:19 Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


Why do you automatically assume that the law here is the Torah? The Torah wasn't added because of transgression. The Levitical Priesthood was added because of transgression. Read Genesis.

So confused.

All the people already agreed to the whole Torah (not just 10 commandments) which included a sacrificial system, before they ever transgressed causing Moses to break the tablets. It was the Levitial Priesthood that was then instituted and the second trip up the mountain, to recieve another identical set of tablets as the first. The only difference being the Levitical Priesthood. It's this priesthood that was also called a Law. What did the sacrifices point to? Messiah the Lamb of God. What priesthood did He replace? The Levitical with the Melchizadok. You are too obsessed with your religion as well. You won't see what is actually written.

Vic Hays
05-08-2012, 07:49
The words are "chirographon trois dogmasin". This is a written list of laws. It was the same thing nailed to the top of Yeshua's execution stake. "King of the Jews". It is a list of charges. Broken laws.

You won't see what is actually written.

You seem to be having trouble seeing what is actually written. A list of laws is not a list of accusations.

Could you use your own advice or is there something that you have such a vested interest in that is keeping you from seeing that the Book of the Law is what was nailed to the cross and was a schoolmaster until the Messiah came and that was abolished by the sacrifice of Jesus so that the Gentiles could be grafted into Israel?

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Brasso
05-08-2012, 07:58
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
__________________


Vic!

This is saying the exact opposite of you're trying to make it into. The Middle Wall of Partition was a very real wall in the Temple Courtyard. It marked the boundry of how far a non Jew could go into the Temple complex. In other words, non Jews could not make sacrifices. These ordinances that separated the Jews and non Jews is what was abolished. Not the Torah. It was the ordinances that did not allow Jews to eat with non Jews, etc. It's these very things that were discussed at the Jerusalem Council. We are all one new man, having the Torah written on our hearts (Jer 31). Just as Paul spoke down Peter for acting inapproprietly. Just as Peter saw in his vision that gentiles who beleived were no longer to be considered unclean.

It has nothing to do with the Torah or this Book of the Law you are so obsessed about. The passage in the O.T. and the N.T. are NOT related.

Here's an entire series about Ephesians 2:
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson66.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson67.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson68.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson69.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson70.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson71.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/lessons/lesson72.html

FCoulter
05-08-2012, 08:09
You seem to be having trouble seeing what is actually written. A list of laws is not a list of accusations.

Could you use your own advice or is there something that you have such a vested interest in that is keeping you from seeing that the Book of the Law is what was nailed to the cross and was a schoolmaster until the Messiah came and that was abolished by the sacrifice of Jesus so that the Gentiles could be grafted into Israel?

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_nailedtocross.pdf

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 08:09
The words are "chirographon trois dogmasin". This is a written list of laws. It was the same thing nailed to the top of Yeshua's execution stake. "King of the Jews". It is a list of charges. Broken laws.
OK, from where, pray tell, do you get that?

FCoulter
05-08-2012, 08:17
OK, from where, pray tell, do you get that?

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_nailedtocross.pdf

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 09:15
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_nailedtocross.pdf
I didn't ask where I could find a long, rambling, inaccurate propoganda piece on the web; I asked a specific question.

Where did Brasso come up with the idea that the wording on the cross was a "chirographon trois dogmasin"?

I guess you don't have an answer to that, either. You just want to promote your errors.

Brasso
05-08-2012, 09:25
Because the chirographon is a written document of ordinances/laws that a person is accused of breaking. Messiah was accused of blasphemy by claiming to be King of the Jews. That was His "crime". It's an analogy.


You have to remember that the Gospel according to Bert is whatever the RCC says it is, regardless of what the Bible says.

FCoulter
05-08-2012, 09:27
I didn't ask where I could find a long, rambling, inaccurate propoganda piece on the web; I asked a specific question.

Where did Brasso come up with the idea that the wording on the cross was a "chirographon trois dogmasin"?

I guess you don't have an answer to that, either. You just want to promote your errors.

It has the answer you asked for. Are you to lazy to read? Also please show the so called errors you claim are written in the article?

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 09:49
It has the answer you asked for. Are you to lazy to read? Also please show the so called errors you claim are written in the article?
I read the whole thing. All it did was assert what it claims, with no evidence.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 09:50
Because the chirographon is a written document of ordinances/laws that a person is accused of breaking. Messiah was accused of blasphemy by claiming to be King of the Jews. That was His "crime". It's an analogy.
Ahhh, I see. It's an analogy that was made up out of whole cloth. I understand.



You have to remember that the Gospel according to Bert is whatever the RCC says it is, regardless of what the Bible says.
Your false accusations are expected and appreciated.

Brasso
05-08-2012, 11:17
Your false accusations are expected and appreciated.


I read the whole thing. All it did was assert what it claims, with no evidence.


Far be it for the RCC to expect the Bible to harmonize. "Not one jot or tittle..." Bert. It's literal. Really.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 12:05
Far be it for the RCC to expect the Bible to harmonize. "Not one jot or tittle..." Bert. It's literal. Really.
It's 4 words out of context. Really.

Vic Hays
05-09-2012, 06:55
It's 4 words out of context. Really.

Lets look at the context. Apparently Jesus expected that men should do and teach these commandments. He Himself offers a reward for those who do and teach them.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Now lets look at the context preceding the "one jot or tittle".

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

To figure out what Jesus meant here to "fulfil" one must understand the life and work of Jesus.

Jesus life was a sacrifice that God provided for atonement of our sins. Jesus died for our sins so any of the ceremonies that pointed forward to that sacrifice have been fulfilled.

Jesus blood did not erase morality which is what the Ten Commandments are about. Nor did they erase the Seventh-day Sabbath which is in the heart of the Ten Commandments and is a sign of God's love for us.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 07:37
Lets look at the context. Apparently Jesus expected that men should do and teach these commandments. He Himself offers a reward for those who do and teach them.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Now lets look at the context preceding the "one jot or tittle".

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

To figure out what Jesus meant here to "fulfil" one must understand the life and work of Jesus.

Jesus life was a sacrifice that God provided for atonement of our sins. Jesus died for our sins so any of the ceremonies that pointed forward to that sacrifice have been fulfilled.

Jesus blood did not erase morality which is what the Ten Commandments are about. Nor did they erase the Seventh-day Sabbath which is in the heart of the Ten Commandments and is a sign of God's love for us.
No, but He came to fulfil the Law. That He did. And so, His conditional in 5:18 has been met. Therefore, in context, the meaning is not what Brasso keeps asserting.

Kingarthurhk
05-09-2012, 08:29
No, but He came to fulfil the Law. That He did. And so, His conditional in 5:18 has been met. Therefore, in context, the meaning is not what Brasso keeps asserting.

I had no idea that the earth beneath had passed away and there was nothing to walk on and all the heavenly bodies had disappeared.

If those two conditions have not happened, then God's law is still very much in tact.

Vic Hays
05-09-2012, 09:13
No, but He came to fulfil the Law. That He did. And so, His conditional in 5:18 has been met. Therefore, in context, the meaning is not what Brasso keeps asserting.


Jesus has not yet brought the Kingdom of God to this earth nor has He abolished morality. It is immoral to treat the Holy Seventh-day Sabbath as if it was just another day.

Luke 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 09:36
I had no idea that the earth beneath had passed away and there was nothing to walk on and all the heavenly bodies had disappeared.

If those two conditions have not happened, then God's law is still very much in tact.
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. If that has not happened, then Jesus was untruthful or incapable.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He did it.

Brasso
05-09-2012, 11:28
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. If that has not happened, then Jesus was untruthful or incapable.



Sure helps to read the Bible. Fulfill here is to be taken for it's actual meaning, which is "to fill up". Not the RCC's definition which apparently means to end. The opposite of whet Messiah said in the first half of that sentence.

This is exactly what He did in the following sermon. He expounded on the Law. He didn't do away with it, or change it, or come up with new commandments. He brought out the fullness of what already was.

But, don't let the Bible get in the way of your religion.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 12:08
Sure helps to read the Bible. Fulfill here is to be taken for it's actual meaning, which is "to fill up". Not the RCC's definition which apparently means to end. The opposite of whet Messiah said in the first half of that sentence.
Ahhh, I see. You claim to infallibly know which of a range of meanings each particular word means in scripture.

I didn't know you had arrogated that particular authority to yourself.

I also wasn't aware that you were such an authority on Greek that you could correct all the translators who have made it their life's work to painstakenly determine what english word would best be used here.

Yes, the Greek word pleroo is sometimes used to mean fill up, as in Mt 13:48, but far, far more often it is used in the sense of fulfilment of prophesy or the like.

As it is here.

Mr 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."

Of course, your interpretation necessarily means that much of the NT is rendered non-sensical, but hey, you don't seem to be worried about context in the slightest.


St. Paul, for instance, keeps saying that we are not under the Law (Romans 3, 6, & 7, 1Cor 9 & 14, Galatians 3, 4, & 5 for example). You keep saying we are.

I choose to believe St. Paul. You are upset because he calls out you Judaisers as being against the Gospel. I agree again with St. Paul.

But, don't let the Bible get in the way of your religion.
The NT was produced by my religion.

Your religion merely distorts what we wrote.

Kingarthurhk
05-09-2012, 12:39
Ahhh, I see. You claim to infallibly know which of a range of meanings each particular word means in scripture.

I didn't know you had arrogated that particular authority to yourself.

I also wasn't aware that you were such an authority on Greek that you could correct all the translators who have made it their life's work to painstakenly determine what english word would best be used here.

Yes, the Greek word pleroo is sometimes used to mean fill up, as in Mt 13:48, but far, far more often it is used in the sense of fulfilment of prophesy or the like.

As it is here.

Mr 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel."

Of course, your interpretation necessarily means that much of the NT is rendered non-sensical, but hey, you don't seem to be worried about context in the slightest.


St. Paul, for instance, keeps saying that we are not under the Law (Romans 3, 6, & 7, 1Cor 9 & 14, Galatians 3, 4, & 5 for example). You keep saying we are.

I choose to believe St. Paul. You are upset because he calls out you Judaisers as being against the Gospel. I agree again with St. Paul.


The NT was produced by my religion.

Your religion merely distorts what we wrote.

Wrong. The New Testament was written by men under the influence of the Holy Spirit and by men educated in the Old Testament. It was written by men who had a first hand experience with Jesus Christ.

He called people like, Peter, the man you base your whole religion on based on a misapplication of a few verses in Matthew 18. The reason he called Peter that, is because Peter was advocating circumcision and feast days as the basis of salvation rather than faith and trust in Jesus Christ. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the 10 Commandments which your religion decided to try to change by claiming authority that rightfully belongs to God alone.

God's eternal 10 Commandments were never done away with. They still exist. They don't save us. Jesus saves us. And this same Jesus says IF we love Him we should keep those commands because of love.

Also, you accuse us a a works based salvation, which we have never advocated.

But, tell me, as a Non-Catholic, who is by your definition a heretic, under your religion is there salvation for me? I cannot and will not perform the rites of the Catholic Church, therefore am I lost in your estimation?

I will never be buried on "hallowed" ground, receive last rights by a Catholic Priest, attend masse, recite the rosary, accept a communion where I am told the bread and juice are the actual flesh and blood of Christ, or receive absolution from a Catholic Priest. Based upon these "Works" and not keeping them, according to your religion will I be condemned to hell?

If I am, in your estimation condemned to hell for not performing these "works" then whose religion is really based on works rather than faith?

Brasso
05-09-2012, 13:56
St. Paul, for instance, keeps saying that we are not under the Law (Romans 3, 6, & 7, 1Cor 9 & 14, Galatians 3, 4, & 5 for example). You keep saying we are.


No. It's your ignorance of Scripture that keeps making false statements about what I say. I've never said such a thing. When it comes to the Word, you are unlearned. Even in the examples you gave above to supposedly disprove the definition of words, you disprove yourself.

I tire of correcting you and even more tired of your childish, ignorant responses. It's obvious you have no grasp of Scripture. Please quit embarrasing yourself.

If you want to say, "The Catholic Church says......", fine. But don't blaspheme yourself by attempting to tell us what the Bible says. Cause you have no clue what it says.

Vic Hays
05-09-2012, 13:56
Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law. If that has not happened, then Jesus was untruthful or incapable.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He did it.

Jesus used the reasoning of fulfilling to mean establishing in some ways. That is why He said :

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why would Jesus teach that there was a blessing in doing and teaching the Commandments if they were no longer in force?

Jesus did not lie so by your reasoning it is ok for you to lie? Jesus kept the Seventh-day Sabbath. Does this mean that it is ok to desecrate that holy day?

What Jesus did was fulfill the prophecies concerning Him and one of those was to make the Law honorable.

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 14:04
No. It's your ignorance of Scripture that keeps making false statements about what I say. I've never said such a thing. When it comes to the Word, you are unlearned. Even in the examples you gave above to supposedly disprove the definition of words, you disprove yourself.

I tire of correcting you and even more tired of your childish, ignorant responses. It's obvious you have no grasp of Scripture. Please quit embarrasing yourself.

If you want to say, "The Catholic Church says......", fine. But don't blaspheme yourself by attempting to tell us what the Bible says. Cause you have no clue what it says.
:rofl:
Your bluster is so very amusing. Thanks for the laugh!!:wavey:

You're starting to sound like a cross between Vizzini from Princess bride and an enraged Barney Frank -- only less articulate.

I think your cognitive dissonance is about to make your head explode! I hope nobody's standing near you!
:rofl:

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 14:12
Jesus used the reasoning of fulfilling to mean establishing in some ways. That is why He said :

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Why would Jesus teach that there was a blessing in doing and teaching the Commandments if they were no longer in force?
He said THESE commandments. Those that He gave at the sermon on the mount.

Jesus did not lie so by your reasoning it is ok for you to lie?
Of course not. That's why I don't do so.

Jesus kept the Seventh-day Sabbath. Does this mean that it is ok to desecrate that holy day?
Jesus was born "under the Law".

Ga 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Get that? Those of us who don't insist on Judaising are redeemed from under the law, and are instead sons.

Why do you insist on being under the law, insist on being a slave, rather than being an adopted son of God?

Ga 4:7 So through God you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son then an heir.

What Jesus did was fulfill the prophecies concerning Him and one of those was to make the Law honorable.

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness’ sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable.
He magnified the law by transforming it at the sermon on the mount (among other teachings). He also magnified the sabbath from one day per week to every day, and most particularly from celebrating the creation to celebrating the redemption (an act far greater even than the creation).

Vic Hays
05-09-2012, 19:38
He said THESE commandments. Those that He gave at the sermon on the mount.



It is obvious that you are trying to distort the Bible verse for your own purposes. This is why men cannot be blindly trusted to interpret scripture.

This is the context of the Commandments that Jesus was talking about the Law and the prophets:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Schabesbert
05-10-2012, 08:14
It is obvious that you are trying to distort the Bible verse for your own purposes. This is why men cannot be blindly trusted to interpret scripture.

This is the context of the Commandments that Jesus was talking about the Law and the prophets:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
So, you think that not one little thing in the law or the prophets can change? That's your infallible interpretation?

How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?

FCoulter
05-10-2012, 08:43
So, you think that not one little thing in the law or the prophets can change? That's your infallible interpretation?

How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?

http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_fullfilllaw.pdf

Vic Hays
05-10-2012, 08:52
So, you think that not one little thing in the law or the prophets can change? That's your infallible interpretation?

How about circumcision, which is a huge deal in the law?
How about the granting of a divorce, which was allowed in the law?
How about the sacrificial system?
How about the mandate to kill adulterers, or people who disrespect their parents? Is that mandate still in effect?

All of the examples you mentioned are from the Book of the Law written by Moses. They are distinct from the Ten Commandments which was spoken and written by God Himself. That is why the Seventh-Day Sabbath is so important. The Seventh-Day Sabbath is the only commandment that points to the Creator as being the author of the moral law.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Psalm 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

God's Covenant does not change. It is man that broke it, but that did not change it.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Schabesbert
05-10-2012, 12:33
http://www.cbcg.org/franklin/SA/SA_fullfilllaw.pdf

Interesting how you correctly give the range of meanings of the Greek word, and then just "arbitrarily" pick, without any backup, the one meaning that happens to correspond with your pre-conceived notions. Hmmm ...

Of course, much of the rest of the article has misconceptions as its premesis.

But yet there's a grain of truth in it. The physical DOES preceed the spiritual. The SPIRITUAL meaning of the sabbath is fulfilled in Christ and in the celebration of the resurrection (redemption), rather than the celebration of the creation.

Schabesbert
05-10-2012, 12:38
All of the examples you mentioned are from the Book of the Law written by Moses. They are distinct from the Ten Commandments which was spoken and written by God Himself. That is why the Seventh-Day Sabbath is so important. The Seventh-Day Sabbath is the only commandment that points to the Creator as being the author of the moral law.
Are you moving the goalposts, or are you just honestly losing track of the argument?

YOUR argument was that by "not one jot or tittle" will change means that NOTHING in the law will change for all time.

I didn't ask whether the 10 commandments were distinct; that's a different argument. I think that the examples I gave show that many jots and tittles have changed, and so your interpretation of what Jesus meant is incorrect. I hope you're not arguing, nor trying to make it seem like I'm arguing, that Jesus was incorrect. No, I'm arguing that YOUR INTERPRETATION of what Jesus meant is incorrect.

Vic Hays
05-10-2012, 14:03
Are you moving the goalposts, or are you just honestly losing track of the argument?

YOUR argument was that by "not one jot or tittle" will change means that NOTHING in the law will change for all time.


No I never said nothing would change for all time. That was Brasso. What Jesus said was that until they were fulfilled they would not change.

From the Bible:

Matthew
5:18 For truly I say to you, Till heaven and earth pass, one stroke or one pronunciation mark shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That Sabbath rest has not yet been ushered in, therefore, the keeping of the Seventh-day Sabbath is still in effect and will continue even in the New Earth.

From the Bible:

Hebrews 4:9 There remains therefore a rest (keeping of a Sabbath) to the people of God.
4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also has ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

How do I know the Seventh-day is holy? God calls the Seveth day His holy day.
From the Bible:

Isaiah 58:13 If you turn away your foot from the sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honorable; and shall honor him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words:
58:14 Then shall you delight yourself in the LORD; and I will cause you to ride on the high places of the earth, and feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father: for the mouth of the LORD has spoken it.

Isaiah

Kingarthurhk
05-10-2012, 14:07
Are you moving the goalposts, or are you just honestly losing track of the argument?

YOUR argument was that by "not one jot or tittle" will change means that NOTHING in the law will change for all time.

I didn't ask whether the 10 commandments were distinct; that's a different argument. I think that the examples I gave show that many jots and tittles have changed, and so your interpretation of what Jesus meant is incorrect. I hope you're not arguing, nor trying to make it seem like I'm arguing, that Jesus was incorrect. No, I'm arguing that YOUR INTERPRETATION of what Jesus meant is incorrect.

It seems pretty plain to me:

Matthew 5:17-20, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23252W))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23253X))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23254Y))'></sup> and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law by keeping it perfectly, and then becomming the sacrifice for our salvation.

As far as the prophets are concerned:

Jesus fulfilled Old Testament Prophecies.avi - YouTube

You still haven't answered my question that I have posed to you. Because, I don't participate in the works of Catholicism: Being given last rites, being buried in "hallowed ground", not attending masse, not participating in a ceremony that states that bread and wine are made by a priest into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus, or seeking absolution from a priest-do you say I will go to hell? If so, is this not a works based salvation?

We have stated that the Law of God is eternal, but we have never asserted that it is the means of salvation, that is only through our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:16-21, "For God so loved <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137V))'></sup> the world that he gave <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137W))'></sup> his one and only Son, <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137X))'></sup> that whoever believes <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137Y))'></sup> in him shall not perish but have eternal life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137Z))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For God did not send his Son into the world <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26138AA))'></sup> to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26138AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26139AC))'></sup> but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26139AD))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>This is the verdict: Light <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26140AE))'></sup> has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26140AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26141AG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God."

However, we want to keep the law because of our love for Jesus.

John 14:15-21, "<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>“If you love me, keep my commands. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26684V))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26685W))'></sup> to help you and be with you forever— <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>the Spirit of truth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26686X))'></sup> The world cannot accept him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26686Y))'></sup> because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26686c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26686c)]</sup> in you. <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>I will not leave you as orphans; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26687Z))'></sup> I will come to you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26687AA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26688AB))'></sup> Because I live, you also will live. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26688AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>On that day <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26689AD))'></sup> you will realize that I am in my Father, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26689AE))'></sup> and you are in me, and I am in you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26689AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26690AG))'></sup> The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26690AH))'></sup> and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

John 14:23-25, "<sup> </sup>Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26692AK))'></sup> My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26692AL))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26693AM))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>“All this I have spoken while still with you. <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>But the Advocate, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AN))'></sup> the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AO))'></sup> will teach you all things <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AP))'></sup> and will remind you of everything I have said to you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AQ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26696AR))'></sup> I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26696AS))'></sup> and do not be afraid."

Why are you angry with us? We are only professing what God has given us.

Revelation 12:17, "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30909AM))'></sup> against the rest of her offspring <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30909AN))'></sup> —those who keep God’s commands <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30909AO))'></sup> and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

Why? Out of a need for a loving relationship with Jesus.

Don't you love Jesus too? If so, won't you want to please Him and keep His Commandments?

Schabesbert
05-10-2012, 14:47
It seems pretty plain to me:

Matthew 5:17-20, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23252W))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23253X))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23254Y))'></sup> and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."


Christ fulfilled the requirements of the law by keeping it perfectly, and then becomming the sacrifice for our salvation.
Fine. So, the Mosaic Law is fulfilled, and we are no longer under that law, but the Law of Christ.



You still haven't answered my question that I have posed to you. Because, I don't participate in the works of Catholicism: Being given last rites, being buried in "hallowed ground", not attending masse, not participating in a ceremony that states that bread and wine are made by a priest into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus, or seeking absolution from a priest-do you say I will go to hell? If so, is this not a works based salvation?
We don't say whether any particular person will go to hell or not. I'm not the judge.

We have stated that the Law of God is eternal, but we have never asserted that it is the means of salvation, that is only through our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 3:16-21, "For God so loved <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137V))'></sup> the world that he gave <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137W))'></sup> his one and only Son, <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137X))'></sup> that whoever believes <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137Y))'></sup> in him shall not perish but have eternal life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26137Z))'></sup> [SIZE=2][COLOR=darkred]<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For God did not send his Son into the world <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26138AA))'></sup> to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26138AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26139AC))'></sup> but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26139AD))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>
Yes. But as I have explained to you, look up the meaning of the word "believe" in the Greek. It means more than just plain "believe"; it also means to trust, to follow, to obey.

However, we want to keep the law because of our love for Jesus.
But some things, such as circumcision for the sake of salvation, will only work against the Law of Christ:

Ga 5:2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

If you're uncircumcised, stay that way. If you're circumcised, stay that way:
1Co 7:18 Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.

Therefore, it's not the OLD law that we are to keep, at least not the ceremonial and sacrificial portion.


Why are you angry with us? We are only professing what God has given us.
I'm not angry. I'm somewhat amused, albeit sometimes frustrated because the things you're professing are not FROM God.

Don't you love Jesus too? If so, won't you want to please Him and keep His Commandments?
Of course I love Jesus. That's why I feel the need to correct your errors about Him, His teaching, and His bride.

Kingarthurhk
05-10-2012, 14:58
Fine. So, the Mosaic Law is fulfilled, and we are no longer under that law, but the Law of Christ.

I am not referring to the ceremonial law that pointed toward Jesus, I am not referring to the civil law that governed Israel, we are talking about the moral eternal law of God.




We don't say whether any particular person will go to hell or not. I'm not the judge.

This is something we share in common.



Yes. But as I have explained to you, look up the meaning of the word "believe" in the Greek. It means more than just plain "believe"; it also means to trust, to follow, to obey.

Because we love Jesus we want to obey Him. We are told that if we have seen Him, we have also seen the father. Therefore, they are in concert in all things. Jesus never spoke against the 10 Commandments. Rather, He took us from the letter to the very spirit of the law.


But some things, such as circumcision for the sake of salvation, will only work against the Law of Christ:

Ga 5:2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

If you're uncircumcised, stay that way. If you're circumcised, stay that way:
1Co 7:18 Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.

Don't worry, no one is is suggesting you be circumcised, or anyone for that matter. For my part, I have been because I was born on a military base, and they did that to all the male children. I had that done to my son because I did not know how to instruct him how to clean his foreskin, considering I never had one.

Circumcision does not gain any meritorious reward from God toward salvation. On this we can also agree.

Therefore, it's not the OLD law that we are to keep, at least not the ceremonial and sacrificial portion.

You are correct, only the moral 10 Commandments remain.


I'm not angry. I'm somewhat amused, albeit sometimes frustrated because the things you're professing are not FROM God.

Again, something we share in common.


Of course I love Jesus. That's why I feel the need to correct your errors about Him, His teaching, and His bride.

Again, on this point we also agree. I suspect this is the most agreeable post we've ever shared.:supergrin:

FCoulter
05-10-2012, 15:59
I am not referring to the ceremonial law that pointed toward Jesus, I am not referring to the civil law that governed Israel, we are talking about the moral eternal law of God.





This is something we share in common.




Because we love Jesus we want to obey Him. We are told that if we have seen Him, we have also seen the father. Therefore, they are in concert in all things. Jesus never spoke against the 10 Commandments. Rather, He took us from the letter to the very spirit of the law.



Don't worry, no one is is suggesting you be circumcised, or anyone for that matter. For my part, I have been because I was born on a military base, and they did that to all the male children. I had that done to my son because I did not know how to instruct him how to clean his foreskin, considering I never had one.

Circumcision does not gain any meritorious reward from God toward salvation. On this we can also agree.



You are correct, only the moral 10 Commandments remain.



Again, something we share in common.



Again, on this point we also agree. I suspect this is the most agreeable post we've ever shared.:supergrin:
This is why the SDAs like other protestants are just daughter churches of the catholic church. You are closer than you think king.

Kingarthurhk
05-10-2012, 16:27
This is why the SDAs like other protestants are just daughter churches of the catholic church. You are closer than you think king.

Sorry, we are part of the continuing reformation, and in no wise a daughter of Catholcism.

Schabesbert
05-10-2012, 16:31
Sorry, we are part of the continuing reformation, and in no wise a daughter of Catholcism.
More fruit of the doctrine of sola scriptura which you both claim to follow.

The resultant spirit of confusion is not of the Holy Spirit.

Kingarthurhk
05-10-2012, 16:37
More fruit of the doctrine of sola scriptura which you both claim to follow.

The resultant spirit of confusion is not of the Holy Spirit.

I have seen no scripture from him to substantiate that claim, so the error is not that of Sola Scriptura.

Brasso
05-10-2012, 17:48
Not one jot or tittle...

Who are you going to believe?

It's not spiritual. It's literal. It's as specific as it can get. Not one single yod. The very idea that it could pass away comes from your carnal minds, not the Bible. It comes from you twisting the Word to your own destruction.

FCoulter
05-10-2012, 18:56
More fruit of the doctrine of sola scriptura which you both claim to follow.

The resultant spirit of confusion is not of the Holy Spirit.

There is more to being a Sola Scrip. Than just obeying some of Gods commands. A SDA does have alot more in common with the catholic church than they do a S.S. Let's look at both. S.S believe ALL scrpiture is God breathed,they obey ALL commands given by God not just the big 10. SDA dont keept Gods annual Sabbaths, neither does the CC. SDA are trinitarian same as the CC. Sola scrpt is NOT. The list goes on and on,SDA are a spin off of the RCC, keeping of easter,Christmas,And other pagan days the CC brought into christianity proves this

ImpeachObama
05-10-2012, 19:17
Fred, Methodist and Baptist were the original influence and faith of the original founders of SDA. Just because they don't keep the ceremonial laws, feasts and annual Sabbath days does not make them the consideration of a daughter church. Especially since many have done the dirty work of calling Romans out. Many will be awakened to truth and more truth when the right time comes. Many will also hold onto their traditions of old. Keeping Xmas and Easter? That's more of an individual's choice than the choice of the denomination I would say. Easy on the stone throwing.

rgregoryb
05-10-2012, 19:27
This is why the SDAs like other protestants are just daughter churches of the catholic church. You are closer than you think king.

this is getting hilarious.......you really believe that your little tiny group is the real remnant church and all others are apostate..:rofl::rofl:

FCoulter
05-10-2012, 19:32
Fred, Methodist and Baptist were the original influence and faith of the original founders of SDA. Just because they don't keep the ceremonial laws, feasts and annual Sabbath days does not make them the consideration of a daughter church. Especially since many have done the dirty work of calling Romans out. Many will be awakened to truth and more truth when the right time comes. Many will also hold onto their traditions of old. Keeping Xmas and Easter? That's more of an individual's choice than the choice of the denomination I would say. Easy on the stone throwing.

I am sorry, I was not trying to cast stones. I was pointing out that the SDA church has more beliefs in common with the RCC than they do with a Sola Script church.As for keeping xmas,easter, or any other pagan celebration with Christ name on it, directly came to Christianity through the RCC