1.1 million in North America an Growing... [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : 1.1 million in North America an Growing...


Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 11:32
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm#.T5QRNK1tB6F.facebook

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 13:10
"There's a sucker born every minute" is a phrase often credited to P. T. Barnum (1810–1891), an American showman. It is generally taken to mean that there will always be many gullible people in the world.

Vic Hays
04-22-2012, 14:10
"There's a sucker born every minute" is a phrase often credited to P. T. Barnum (1810–1891), an American showman. It is generally taken to mean that there will always be many gullible people in the world.

Maybe if you had been a Seventh-day Adventist instead of a Methodist you would have found a reason to believe.

A couple of years ago I was visiting in a mission field and the Methodist Church gave up 80 of its mission churches to us. They have forgotten the Gospel commission of Jesus to go into all the world and focused inward instead.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely you have received, freely give.

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 16:07
Maybe if you had been a Seventh-day Adventist instead of a Methodist you would have found a reason to believe.

A couple of years ago I was visiting in a mission field and the Methodist Church gave up 80 of its mission churches to us. They have forgotten the Gospel commission of Jesus to go into all the world and focused inward instead.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely you have received, freely give.

METHODIST?????..........I've never been a methodist

Why would a sane person be SDA with their track record of utter flops and misses in the "prophecy" field?

Beside that I like Scotch and beer too much, might as well be muslim as SDA

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 16:10
METHODIST?????..........I've never been a methodist

Why would a sane person be SDA with their track record of utter flops and misses in the "prophecy" field?

Please elaborate on your allegation.

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 16:29
Ellen G. White endorsed a false prophecy by William Miller that Christ would return, first in 1843 and then 1844. Miller repented when Christ didn't show up on his date but Ellen didn't want to be viewed as a false prophetess for endorsing him through her visions. The idea was concocted by one of her followers that the date was right, but the event was wrong. Ellen eagerly accepted this "out", and this explanation was offered to explain away the false prophecy:

Christ didn't come visibly to earth, but He, invisibly, in heaven, changed compartments from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844 and began the work of "investigative judgment" .

427
04-22-2012, 16:37
So, if I share particular adventist christian beliefs, and ignore all other christian teachings that you all don't agree with, will I somehow be saved in the time of trouble and able to fight spiritual enemies, is that right? Your version of christianity is right and all others are wrong, is that right?

G23Gen4TX
04-22-2012, 16:38
Lol at religious people fighting with each other.

200 years from now scientology is going to be the number one religion.

Jesus's going to freak out when he lands back on earth with his spaceship.

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 16:38
Investigative judgement
baptismal regeneration
soul sleep

Gunhaver
04-22-2012, 16:40
Family Guy - religious commentary.mp4 - YouTube

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 16:43
not religious anymore ...pointing out how taking an already "way out there" belief and adding even more "way out there" theology is counter productive, and the fact that an organization is growing is not a sign of "being right"

cause as a friend of mine always said " a circus will draw a crowd"

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 16:57
Ellen G. White endorsed a false prophecy by William Miller that Christ would return, first in 1843 and then 1844. Miller repented when Christ didn't show up on his date but Ellen didn't want to be viewed as a false prophetess for endorsing him through her visions. The idea was concocted by one of her followers that the date was right, but the event was wrong. Ellen eagerly accepted this "out", and this explanation was offered to explain away the false prophecy:

Christ didn't come visibly to earth, but He, invisibly, in heaven, changed compartments from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844 and began the work of "investigative judgment" .

The Millerite movement was a Baptist movement. Adventism was not part of the Millerites. Now, many groups developed after this event. These include Millerite Baptists, Seventh-Day Baptists, The World Wide Church of God, and later Seventh-Day Adventists.

So, for a a former detective, you may wish to investigate your claims a bit further, you have not made the case.

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 16:58
Family Guy - religious commentary.mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veCSPjSeBRw)

I love this video. In fact, I was the first person, I think to post it in this forum.

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 17:14
Investigative judgement
baptismal regeneration
soul sleep

The Investigative Judgment, what do you think it means? I suspect it isn't what you are assuming it to mean.

I have no clue what on earth you mean by baptismal regeneration.

And what you call "soul sleep" or death being called a "sleep" was discussed by Jesus Himself.

Luke 8:51-53, "<sup>51</sup> When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. <sup id="en-NIV-25298" class="versenum">52</sup> Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”
<sup id="en-NIV-25299" class="versenum">53</sup> They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. <sup id="en-NIV-25300" class="versenum">54</sup> But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” <sup id="en-NIV-25301" class="versenum">55</sup> Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. <sup id="en-NIV-25302" class="versenum">56</sup> Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened."

This is repeated in the Gospels of Luke and Mark.

John 11:1-43, "<sup>1</sup> Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. <sup id="en-NIV-26526" class="versenum">2</sup> (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) <sup id="en-NIV-26527" class="versenum">3</sup> So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”

<sup id="en-NIV-26528" class="versenum">4</sup> When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” <sup id="en-NIV-26529" class="versenum">5</sup> Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. <sup id="en-NIV-26530" class="versenum">6</sup> So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, <sup id="en-NIV-26531" class="versenum">7</sup> and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26532" class="versenum">8</sup> “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”
<sup id="en-NIV-26533" class="versenum">9</sup> Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. <sup id="en-NIV-26534" class="versenum">10</sup> It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26535" class="versenum">11</sup> After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26536" class="versenum">12</sup> His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” <sup id="en-NIV-26537" class="versenum">13</sup> Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
<sup id="en-NIV-26538" class="versenum">14</sup> So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, <sup id="en-NIV-26539" class="versenum">15</sup> and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26540" class="versenum">16</sup> Then Thomas (also known as Didymus<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26540a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26540a)]</sup>) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.” Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

<sup id="en-NIV-26541" class="versenum">17</sup> On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. <sup id="en-NIV-26542" class="versenum">18</sup> Now Bethany was less than two miles<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26542b)]</sup> from Jerusalem, <sup id="en-NIV-26543" class="versenum">19</sup> and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. <sup id="en-NIV-26544" class="versenum">20</sup> When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

<sup id="en-NIV-26545" class="versenum">21</sup> “Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “[B]if you had been here, my brother would not have died. <sup id="en-NIV-26546" class="versenum">22</sup> But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26547" class="versenum">23</sup> Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26548" class="versenum">24</sup> Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26549" class="versenum">25</sup> Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; <sup id="en-NIV-26550" class="versenum">26</sup> and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
<sup id="en-NIV-26551" class="versenum">27</sup> “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26552" class="versenum">28</sup> After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” <sup id="en-NIV-26553" class="versenum">29</sup> When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. <sup id="en-NIV-26554" class="versenum">30</sup> Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. <sup id="en-NIV-26555" class="versenum">31</sup> When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
<sup id="en-NIV-26556" class="versenum">32</sup> When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26557" class="versenum">33</sup> When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. <sup id="en-NIV-26558" class="versenum">34</sup> “Where have you laid him?” he asked.
“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.
<sup id="en-NIV-26559" class="versenum">35</sup> Jesus wept.
<sup id="en-NIV-26560" class="versenum">36</sup> Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
<sup id="en-NIV-26561" class="versenum">37</sup> But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?” Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

<sup id="en-NIV-26562" class="versenum">38</sup> Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. <sup id="en-NIV-26563" class="versenum">39</sup> “Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26564" class="versenum">40</sup> Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
<sup id="en-NIV-26565" class="versenum">41</sup> So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. <sup id="en-NIV-26566" class="versenum">42</sup> I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
<sup id="en-NIV-26567" class="versenum">43</sup> When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” <sup id="en-NIV-26568" class="versenum">44</sup> The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

So, scripture makes this point very clear.

Romans 3:3-4, "<sup>3</sup> What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? <sup id="en-NIV-27996" class="versenum">4</sup> Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-27996a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27996a)]</sup>

ArtificialGrape
04-22-2012, 17:27
Just curious... what is the basis for vegetarianism, and how mandatory vs. recommended is it?

I seem to recall that you, or perhaps Vic, has mentioned consuming meat on occasion.

Thanks,
-ArtificialGrape

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 17:52
Just curious... what is the basis for vegetarianism, and how mandatory vs. recommended is it?

I seem to recall that you, or perhaps Vic, has mentioned consuming meat on occasion.

Thanks,
-ArtificialGrape

It was me. It is by no means manditory. However, vegetarianism is a healthier lifestyle. I am by no means a carnivore, but to give you an idea, I just had salmon for dinner, and a turkey sandwhich yeterday.

I was raised with some meat, just not a lot of it. Modern science has caught up and demonstrated the potential carcenogenic link to meat consumption.

I try to keep a balance.

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 18:41
The Millerite movement was a Baptist movement. Adventism was not part of the Millerites. Now, many groups developed after this event. These include Millerite Baptists, Seventh-Day Baptists, The World Wide Church of God, and later Seventh-Day Adventists.

So, for a a former detective, you may wish to investigate your claims a bit further, you have not made the case.

so, E G White has nothing to do with current SDA?

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 18:45
Christ didn't come visibly to earth, but He, invisibly, in heaven, changed compartments from the Holy to the Most Holy in 1844 and began the work of "investigative judgment" .

according to E G "White

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 18:55
so, E G White has nothing to do with current SDA?

The current SDA, yes. She was not William Miller, not predicted the things that William Miller said. It is a bit like me accusing you of being Artificial Grape.

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 18:59
according to E G "White

Now, you are answering yourself? That's just confusing.

rgregoryb
04-22-2012, 19:14
Now, you are answering yourself? That's just confusing.

she endorsed Miller's predictions, then when the second coming did not occur she came out with Jesus' movement in heaven to begin "investigative judgement"

She is considered a SDA prophet, correct?

ArtificialGrape
04-22-2012, 19:26
It was me. It is by no means manditory. However, vegetarianism is a healthier lifestyle. I am by no means a carnivore, but to give you an idea, I just had salmon for dinner, and a turkey sandwhich yeterday.

I was raised with some meat, just not a lot of it. Modern science has caught up and demonstrated the potential carcenogenic link to meat consumption.

I try to keep a balance.
Thanks, sounds more like the value is taught, but that it is not dogma -- perhaps like (my understanding of) the LDS and prepping.

I follow an animal-free diet myself -- tonight was a vegan pesto, whole wheat rotini, salad and cantaloupe.

-ArtificialGrape

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 19:36
Thanks, sounds more like the value is taught, but that it is not dogma -- perhaps like (my understanding of) the LDS and prepping.

I follow an animal-free diet myself -- tonight was a vegan pesto, whole wheat rotini, salad and cantaloupe.

-ArtificialGrape

I suspect you will be better off for your choice. The original diet meant for humans was vegan.

I haven't had the courage to go to that extreme yet. Though, I suspect I would be better off for it as well.

Kingarthurhk
04-22-2012, 19:40
she endorsed Miller's predictions, then when the second coming did not occur she came out with Jesus' movement in heaven to begin "investigative judgement"

She is considered a SDA prophet, correct?

No, she did not publish anything stating that she had a relevation from God stating that Miller was right. Never happened, I challenge you to find any of her source material that states such a thing.

Now, again, what does investigative judgment mean to you? I have heard all sorts of wild claims from people. So, in order to answer that aspect of your claim, I have to understand what it means to you, before we can deal with that issue.

Just as I have no idea what on earth you are talking about when it comes to baptismal regeneration. You'll have to explain what you mean by that as well, because I have never heard that phase until you wrote it this evening.

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 09:29
Thanks, sounds more like the value is taught, but that it is not dogma -- perhaps like (my understanding of) the LDS and prepping.

I follow an animal-free diet myself -- tonight was a vegan pesto, whole wheat rotini, salad and cantaloupe.

-ArtificialGrape

We take the Bible to be authoritative as the Word of God. Our beliefs do not just arise from thin air.

According to the Bible the original diet of man was vegan. Since God set this up we believe that God knew what the best diet for man was. After the fall of man vegetables were added because the ground no longer gave its strength to be able to live well on nuts, fruits and grains.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

and after the fall but before the flood vegetables were added for strength.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

WS6
04-24-2012, 10:39
We take the Bible to be authoritative as the Word of God. Our beliefs do not just arise from thin air. [ ... ]

How do you know that the Bible is authoritative as the Word of God?

Schabesbert
04-24-2012, 11:20
We take the Bible to be authoritative as the Word of God. Our beliefs do not just arise from thin air.
No, but your rather novel and incorrect interpretations of scripture DO arise from thin air.

According to the Bible the original diet of man was vegan. Since God set this up we believe that God knew what the best diet for man was. After the fall of man vegetables were added because the ground no longer gave its strength to be able to live well on nuts, fruits and grains.
Jesus wasn't a vegan. He made no command requiring, requesting, or even encouraging us to return to a vegan diet.

creaky
04-24-2012, 12:05
According to the Bible the original diet of man was vegan. Since God set this up we believe that God knew what the best diet for man was. After the fall of man vegetables were added because the ground no longer gave its strength to be able to live well on nuts, fruits and grains

So you would disregard St. Peters vision while in Joppa, recorded in the Acts of the Apostles?

You Judaizers would be much happier without the New Testament, pesky thing that it is.

Tell me, were even the Jews in the Old Testament required to be vegans?

Where do you get this silly stuff?

Edit to add: Read 1 Timothy 4

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 15:58
So you would disregard St. Peters vision while in Joppa, recorded in the Acts of the Apostles?

You Judaizers would be much happier without the New Testament, pesky thing that it is.

Tell me, were even the Jews in the Old Testament required to be vegans?

Where do you get this silly stuff?

Edit to add: Read 1 Timothy 4

Adventists are not required to be vegan. Very few are purely vegan. Most use some dairy and eggs. A large amount of Adventists are not even vegetarian. The scientific studies that have been done show that the people who take care of the Temple of God (their body) have a better quality of life and live longer to boot.

Did you read Acts 10 thoroughly before you came to a half baked conclusion?

Peter is explicit about the meaning of the vision. The sheet offered 3 times, 3 Gentiles come to the door and ask for Peter and when Peter goes with them he tells them what God showed him regarding the Gentiles vs the Jews.


Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.


Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Schabesbert
04-24-2012, 16:15
Did you read Acts 10 thoroughly before you came to a half baked conclusion?
His conclusion is in line with the text.

Peter is explicit about the meaning of the vision. The sheet offered 3 times, 3 Gentiles come to the door and ask for Peter and when Peter goes with them he tells them what God showed him regarding the Gentiles vs the Jews.
That is ONE meaning of the text. The text has (at least) two meanings: the literal, which you discount based upon -- what? I suspect it's simply your own predispositions. And the allegorical, which St. Peter explicitely exegetes for us.

You guys are so biased in your thinking. Here, we have an instance of a literal text being exegeted. You deny the literal and ony believe the allegorical.

Yet, in Mark 7:19, you claim that the explainatory text "(Thus he declared all foods clean.)" is not the point, and that only the literal event is of any importance.

Typical either/or mentality, when only both/and will do justice to the text and the context (as well as harmonizing with the rest of scripture).

Gunhaver
04-24-2012, 16:50
I love this video. In fact, I was the first person, I think to post it in this forum.

Oh, don't think I'm sticking up for you. I just like how it illustrates how one person can think another is completely off their rocker for believing almost exactly the same thing as them. Seems it's usually more about being right than getting it right.

I try to imagine how this would work among scientists. Guess what? It really doesn't.

Richard Dawkins;
" I do remember one formative influence in my undergraduate life. There was an elderly professor in my department who had been passionately keen on a particular theory for, oh, a number of years, and one day an American visiting researcher came and he completely and utterly disproved our old man's hypothesis. The old man strode to the front, shook his hand and said, "My dear fellow, I wish to thank you, I have been wrong these fifteen years". And we all clapped our hands raw. That was the scientific ideal, of somebody who had a lot invested, a lifetime almost invested in a theory, and he was rejoicing that he had been shown wrong and that scientific truth had been advanced."

I suppose that scientist could have gone off and started his own sect of whatever his branch of study was, but he was more interested in knowing the truth than discovering it himself.

muscogee
04-24-2012, 17:06
Lol at religious people fighting with each other.

200 years from now scientology is going to be the number one religion.

Jesus's going to freak out when he lands back on earth with his spaceship.

This validates my belief system. They're all right in that they're all wrong.

427
04-24-2012, 17:22
We take the Bible to be authoritative as the Word of God. Our beliefs do not just arise from thin air.

According to the Bible the original diet of man was vegan. Since God set this up we believe that God knew what the best diet for man was. After the fall of man vegetables were added because the ground no longer gave its strength to be able to live well on nuts, fruits and grains.

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

and after the fall but before the flood vegetables were added for strength.

Didn't Jesus hand out fish? Didn't Jesus also eat broiled fish and honeycomb? If he did, he's not promoting veganism. Weren't some of the apostles fisherman? Either you or new testament is wrong.

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 17:56
Didn't Jesus hand out fish? Didn't Jesus also eat broiled fish and honeycomb? If he did, he's not promoting veganism. Weren't some of the apostles fisherman? Either you or new testament is wrong.

No one said it wasn't permisable.

427
04-24-2012, 18:13
No one said it wasn't permisable.

That's not the point.

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 18:27
His conclusion is in line with the text.


That is ONE meaning of the text. The text has (at least) two meanings: the literal, which you discount based upon -- what? I suspect it's simply your own predispositions. And the allegorical, which St. Peter explicitely exegetes for us.

You guys are so biased in your thinking. Here, we have an instance of a literal text being exegeted. You deny the literal and ony believe the allegorical.

Yet, in Mark 7:19, you claim that the explainatory text "(Thus he declared all foods clean.)" is not the point, and that only the literal event is of any importance.

Typical either/or mentality, when only both/and will do justice to the text and the context (as well as harmonizing with the rest of scripture).

I guess if you really want to take Acts 10 out of context, I guess you could assume canibalism is acceptable:

Acts 10:27-28, "<sup>27</sup> While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. <sup id="en-NIV-27288" class="versenum">28</sup> He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean."

So, if I ever get invited to dinner at your house I should wonder whether or not I am the main course?

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 18:27
How do you know that the Bible is authoritative as the Word of God?

Well, if you have abandoned the Bible as the word of God, it explains the spirit in which you come.

Brasso
04-24-2012, 18:43
You Judaizers would be much happier without the New Testament, pesky thing that it is.

I should say the same about you, since none of your beliefs can be found there.

Kingarthurhk
04-24-2012, 18:47
So you would disregard St. Peters vision while in Joppa, recorded in the Acts of the Apostles?

You Judaizers would be much happier without the New Testament, pesky thing that it is.

Tell me, were even the Jews in the Old Testament required to be vegans?

Where do you get this silly stuff?

Edit to add: Read 1 Timothy 4

Ironic, considering your beliefs are not congruent with scripture, and neither is the spirit in which you come.

Gunhaver
04-24-2012, 19:19
I suspect you will be better off for your choice. The original diet meant for humans was vegan.

I haven't had the courage to go to that extreme yet. Though, I suspect I would be better off for it as well.

I'm the type that goes to the grocery store and heads straight to the produce section, not because I think it's healthier or less cruel to animals but because I just really like that stuff.

But are we to ignore that the eyes forward, canine toothed short digestive tract with meat digesting enzyme makeup of the human body is very similar to other predators?

Chimps, who are not our ancestors but out distant cousins, have their jaw muscles attached to a crest at the tops of their heads just like the fossil skulls of our true ancestors. When chewing for 6 hours a day those muscles get very large and restrict the growth of the skull and brain. With a transfer over to more meat based diets and especially when cooking was discovered the intake of fat and protein increased. The energy requirements for digesting raw vegetation went down significantly and more fat, which brain tissue is mostly made of, was available for brain development. The use of those big stalk chewing muscles decreased making small jaw muscles attached at the sides of the head an advantage (remember, typical gradient advantage just like the development of wings) when it made way for bigger brain growth.

There's nothing like a detailed explanation backed up by observation.

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 19:46
Didn't Jesus hand out fish? Didn't Jesus also eat broiled fish and honeycomb? If he did, he's not promoting veganism. Weren't some of the apostles fisherman? Either you or new testament is wrong.

Did you read that it is not a requirement to be vegetarian? Some people choose it because it is a healthier choice. Is it difficult to think that there could be individual choice and preference associated with religion?

Do you think that fish is as healthy as it was in Jesus day? As sin has increased the food supply has become much less healthful. That fish today has much more mercury from mining, pcb's , bisphenol a, teflon chemicals, insecticides, and other chemicals from industry, radioactive cesium, radioactive strontium and other radioactive isotopes from the nuclear industry. The farmed fish are much worse than the wild ones, but the farmed ones are getting to be the most available.

Even secular people like Artificial Grape prefer better food than that.

ArtificialGrape
04-24-2012, 20:20
Did you read that it is not a requirement to be vegetarian? Some people choose it because it is a healthier choice. Is it difficult to think that there could be individual choice and preference associated with religion?

Do you think that fish is as healthy as it was in Jesus day? As sin has increased the food supply has become much less healthful. That fish today has much more mercury from mining, pcb's , bisphenol a, teflon chemicals, insecticides, and other chemicals from industry, radioactive cesium, radioactive strontium and other radioactive isotopes from the nuclear industry. The farmed fish are much worse than the wild ones, but the farmed ones are getting to be the most available.
An Intelligent Designer could have created humans and animals so that these heavy toxins just passed through them rather than accumulating in the food supply, but I guess that's just another price that we pay for sin and free will.

Even secular people like Artificial Grape prefer better food than that.

I'm not sure what to make of "even", so I'll just use one of these :wavey:

-ArtificialGrape

427
04-24-2012, 20:38
Did you read that it is not a requirement to be vegetarian? Some people choose it because it is a healthier choice. Is it difficult to think that there could be individual choice and preference associated with religion? Some religions don't seem to like pork. Being a Jew I wonder what jesus would think of his followers eating pork?

Do you think that fish is as healthy as it was in Jesus day? As sin has increased the food supply has become much less healthful. That fish today has much more mercury from mining, pcb's , bisphenol a, teflon chemicals, insecticides, and other chemicals from industry, radioactive cesium, radioactive strontium and other radioactive isotopes from the nuclear industry. The farmed fish are much worse than the wild ones, but the farmed ones are getting to be the most available. Sin?! Really?

Even secular people like Artificial Grape prefer better food than that.
I don't understand what you're implying. please explain.

While I have your attention, Vic, Perhaps you'll answer my question I've asking from three or four threads:

So, if I share particular your adventist christian beliefs that and ignore all other christian teachings that you all don't agree with, will I somehow be saved in the time of trouble and able to fight spiritual enemies, is that right? Your version of christianity is right and all others are wrong, is that right?

Thanks.

juggy4711
04-24-2012, 20:59
We take the Bible to be authoritative as the Word of God. Our beliefs do not just arise from thin air...

No, but your rather novel and incorrect interpretations of scripture DO arise from thin air...

...You Judaizers would be much happier without the New Testament, pesky thing that it is...

I prefer to go to the source to understand context. The Jews, you know the original creators of the God of Abraham and those best in position to understand the OT, believe THEIR texts to mean that the era of prophets ended with Malachi IIRC. How the heck Christians have the audacity to think they really understand it better is beyond me. The NT and the OT in no shape form or fashion jive together. Talk about thin air.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2011-03-18-Adventists_17_ST_N.htm#.T5QRNK1tB6F.facebook

There are around a thousand times more Muslims in the world than SDAs in the US and a hundred times more Muslims in the world than SDAs in the world. There are around 2-3 times as many Muslims in the US than SDAs. So does that prove something?

Vic Hays
04-24-2012, 22:27
Some religions don't seem to like pork. Being a Jew I wonder what jesus would think of his followers eating pork?

Sin?! Really?


I don't understand what you're implying. please explain.

While I have your attention, Vic, Perhaps you'll answer my question I've asking from three or four threads:

So, if I share particular your adventist christian beliefs that and ignore all other christian teachings that you all don't agree with, will I somehow be saved in the time of trouble and able to fight spiritual enemies, is that right? Your version of christianity is right and all others are wrong, is that right?

Thanks.

Jesus didn't teach His followers to eat pork. Perhaps there is a reason why it is bad for you. Oh yeah, this is the scientific age. Science says pork carries parasites, viral diseases, MS and mad cow.

I was saying that people such as Artificial Grape are able to see the health benefits without scripture.

I don't ignore other religious teachings, I have just learned to compare them with the standard of faith which is the Bible. Paul tells us to do this and Jesus did this as an example to us.

I Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

creaky
04-24-2012, 22:27
Adventists are not required to be vegan.Well, that's a relief.

Did you read Acts 10 thoroughly before you came to a half baked conclusion?

As a matter of fact, I did. I just try not to discount the literal meaning of the scripture at hand. The kosher laws were abolished. You can keep them if you want, if your faith is weak, (Romans 14) but I'm not supposed to hold you in contempt for that and you're not supposed to judge me if I want a ham and cheese sammich. Which I do right now. What is worthy of contempt is your continuing dishonesty and cult-like chopping up of the New Testament to fit your Judaizing agenda. Christianity mixed Gentiles with Jews. Gentiles do not or have ever had to become Jews or follow Jewish custom. Read the scriptures, man! Good Lord, you guys are thick.

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Yep, that is one meaning of the vision.

creaky
04-24-2012, 22:35
I should say the same about you, since none of your beliefs can be found there.

Your not even a Christian, Brasso. How would you even have a clue what any of it means?

I press the disregard button when you come calling with your weird blather.

Go preach it somewhere else.

creaky
04-24-2012, 22:50
Ironic, considering your beliefs are not congruent with scripture, and neither is the spirit in which you come.

Tell me, in your fevered mind, what does the 14th chapter of St. Paul's Letter to the Romans say to you?

How about 1 Timothy 4? You ever read that one?

If you want to do the things you do, I wont judge, but stop holding everyone else in contempt for eating this or that or demanding that one day is more important than another. It's the heresy of the Judaizers and it's sin.

Is that the spirit you come in, brother?

juggy4711
04-24-2012, 23:18
Your not even a Christian, Brasso. How would you even have a clue what any of it means

You are not a Jew. How would you even have a clue what any of the OT means?

creaky
04-24-2012, 23:45
You are not a Jew. How would you even have a clue what any of the OT means?

Dei Verbum, Chapters 3, 4 and 5, specifically, should get you started.

juggy4711
04-25-2012, 00:02
Dei Verbum, Chapters 3, 4 and 5, specifically, should get you started.

How silly of me. The word of God in Latin chapters 3,4 and 5. Yeah That explains how the Christian interpretation of the OT is more legit than the Jews that actually wrote it. I think Geko started a thread on this kind of nonsense.

Vic Hays
04-25-2012, 09:57
Yep, that is one meaning of the vision.

I suppose you can add other meanings if you choose so, but the one that Peter points out in the same chapter of the Bible is much more likely to be true.

The reason for the health laws in the OT was for the Jews to be healthy and avoid disease. Second guessing God as to what is good for you is going to cause you problems.

I remember a few years ago. I was invited to lunch by a millionaire. He scoffed at my vegetarian diet and said, "I like meat". His millions did not save him from the colon cancer that took his life shortly after.

Exodus 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

eracer
04-25-2012, 10:23
I suspect you will be better off for your choice. The original diet meant for humans was vegan.

So my genetic memories of consuming cooked mastodon around a blazing fire aren't the reason I like to barbecue steaks on my grill?

WS6
04-25-2012, 11:13
You are not a Jew. How would you even have a clue what any of the OT means?

Dei Verbum, Chapters 3, 4 and 5, specifically, should get you started.

How silly of me. The word of God in Latin chapters 3,4 and 5. Yeah That explains how the Christian interpretation of the OT is more legit than the Jews that actually wrote it. I think Geko started a thread on this kind of nonsense.

Dei Verbum (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html)

Vic Hays
04-25-2012, 13:51
Health is not the major thrust of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but God wants us to be healthy and not defile His temple which we are if the Spirit of God dwells within us as born again believers.

There is a lot of propaganda out there about the safety of our food supplies. Big money.

There have been some studies done that show some interesting facts. BTW the Mad Cowboy is an Adventist who was sued by the beef industry. They lost.

http://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/or-is-it-not-alzheimers-but-mad-cow-disease/

"Studies cited by Kirchheimer indicate it is likely that “tens or even hundreds of thousands of people are dying right now of undiagnosed or misdiagnosed CJD.” Government figures estimate approximately 200 to 300 cases of CJD have been diagnosed in the U.S. Before you take comfort in that modest figure, bear in mind the findings of John Stauber and Sheldon Rampton. The authors of Mad Cow USA learned that while some four million Americans (at the time) had been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s disease, autopsies revealed roughly 25% of alleged Alzheimer’s deaths were caused instead by other forms of dementia. One percent of these misdiagnosed deaths have been ultimately attributed to CJD. If this trend is extrapolated and one percent of the now five million Americans with Alzheimer’s actually have CJD (or nvCJD), the nationwide estimate rises dramatically from 200 to 50,000 cases."

"On the subject of Alzheimers/MCD I would like to share a conversation I had with Mr. Howard Lyman who gained notoriety as “the mad cowboy” after an
appearance on the Oprah Winfrey program which led to a lawsuit against
both Mr. Lyman and Ms. Winfrey. (A lawsuit in which the defendants were
found NOT guilty) Mr. Lyman had stated that the virus which leads to Mad Cow Disease WAS present in the American herds.
Mr. Lyman and I spoke in the winter of 2003, the same week that a cow
in line at a slaughterhouse in Mabton Washington was discovered with a full
blown case of Mad Cow Disease.
I asked Mr. Lyman the following: “If the authorities found ONE cow today
in a lot in Washington State……how many infected cows got through and
entered the food supply?”
Mr. Lyman was quick and clear in his response. “Most likely about 200.”
So 200 infected cows are entering the food supply every day.

Mr. Lyman also let me know that in a single quarter pound patty of beef
sold to a fast food restaurant there may be the flesh of up to ONE THOUSAND different cows.

Those are not re-assuring numbers.

Please ask your family and friends to stop eating beef. If they will not
or cannot stop eating beef AT THE VERY LEAST ask then to stop eating
fast food burgers. Once a person is infected with the virus that produces
Mad Cow Disease or its human variant Jakob-Kruetzfeld syndrome IT IS
A DEATH SENTENCE. There is no cure, no treatment.

A concerned citizen/chef

Mr. David Stowell
Chicago Illinois"

Kingarthurhk
04-25-2012, 18:19
Tell me, in your fevered mind, what does the 14th chapter of St. Paul's Letter to the Romans say to you?

How about 1 Timothy 4? You ever read that one?

If you want to do the things you do, I wont judge, but stop holding everyone else in contempt for eating this or that or demanding that one day is more important than another. It's the heresy of the Judaizers and it's sin.

Is that the spirit you come in, brother?

All I have seen from you since you have been here is bitterness and hate toward anything remotely different than you.

In what spirit do you think that comes from?

If you want to convince us that your position is right, why do you constantly attack us and come to us with vitriol and malice?

You might have missed the compliment I have Celtic Pride.

He comes here with respect and humility.

You come here with pomp and high handedness. In your view of the world if it does not pay homage to Rome it must be crushed. It is palpable and odious.

So, we can agree to disagree, but leave the templar sword within the confines of your jaws please.

James 3:5-12, " Likewise, the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. <sup id="en-NIV-30326" class="versenum">6</sup> The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one’s life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

<sup id="en-NIV-30327" class="versenum">7</sup> All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and sea creatures are being tamed and have been tamed by mankind, <sup id="en-NIV-30328" class="versenum">8</sup> but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. <sup id="en-NIV-30329" class="versenum">9</sup> With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. <sup id="en-NIV-30330" class="versenum">10</sup> Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. <sup id="en-NIV-30331" class="versenum">11</sup> Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? <sup id="en-NIV-30332" class="versenum">12</sup> My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water."

Kingarthurhk
04-25-2012, 18:21
So my genetic memories of consuming cooked mastodon around a blazing fire aren't the reason I like to barbecue steaks on my grill?

Interesting. I am assuming your are being facetious; but if you aren't, I would like to know what else you are experiencing for a life that you have never lived.

juggy4711
04-25-2012, 21:24
Dei Verbum (http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html)

Nothing but Christian nonsense about a Pope really understanding what Jews wrote better than they do. Would you argue with Jefferson over what the Declaration actually meant, Einstein about relativity, Tolkien about what LotR was really about, the Beatles about the White album, Hawking about blackhole radiation, the Wachowski brothers about the themes of the Matrix trilogy so on and so forth?

Vic Hays
04-26-2012, 11:47
I was christened as an infant into the Presbyterian Church and I attended many a Sunday school there. I had some really dedicated teachers because they managed to get a few Bible concepts and texts into my mind. Praise God for those dedicated people.

By the time I was a teenager I began to notice that the people in church seemed to be saying the right words in church but seemed no different from the people of the world once they were outside the door of the church.

When I was really in need someone went way out of his way to help me out without asking for anything in return. I found out this person was a Seventh-day Adventist and went to church on Saturday.

I called the pastor at a Baptist church I had attended a couple of times and asked him what day was the Seventh day. (Those dedicated Presbyterians had taught me the Ten Commandments. I had assumed that Sunday was the Seventh day.) I was just about floored when the pastor said Saturday was the Seventh day. He gave me some philosophy to support changing to Sunday, but I could read between the lines. There was no Biblical support for changing something as important as the Ten Commandments.

It took a few years before I got over the desire to be a big rich success as in the American dream. I realized (actually a voice said to me that I needed to make a decision soon) I decided to follow Jesus my Lord the best way that I could. I joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church. If there was a Church that adhered to the Bible better I would join that one, but I have not found another better.

My desire to know the Lord better has been fulfilled. I keep getting closer and closer to Him. I see more and more how unworthy I am and how much more the Lord loves me and made a great sacrifice for my salvation. I have nothing to pay Him back but He has freely given.

WS6
04-26-2012, 12:31
Nothing but Christian nonsense

On what authority do you state this?

about a Pope really understanding what Jews wrote better than they do.

Within the Christian context he does.

Would you argue with Jefferson over what the Declaration actually meant, Einstein about relativity, Tolkien about what LotR was really about, the Beatles about the White album, Hawking about blackhole radiation, the Wachowski brothers about the themes of the Matrix trilogy so on and so forth?

Nope, so why do you argue with the Catholic magisterial authority regarding their understanding of their own doctrine?

Schabesbert
04-26-2012, 12:51
Nope, so why do you argue with the Catholic magisterial authority regarding their understanding of their own doctrine?
... which includes the New Testament writings themselves.

juggy4711
04-26-2012, 21:40
On what authority do you state this?



Within the Christian context he does.



Nope, so why do you argue with the Catholic magisterial authority regarding their understanding of their own doctrine?

My own

Of course he does.

Because Catholic and all Christian doctrine is based on a false understanding of the Jewish doctrine of what the OT actually means as their ancestors wrote it. No matter what Christians of any kind want to believe, their interpretations of the OT are not correct and go against those with the best position to know better. It is all built on a false pretense.

Just because quantum mechanics expands on classical physics doesn't mean I'm going to argue Newton didn't really understand what he meant. That is analog to what one has to believe to think the Jews don't understand their own history/religious texts.

If Christians had any hope of validation in their beliefs of the NT in context of the OT, they would have to interpret the OT exactly the same as Jews do. Christianity would have to be inclusive of the OT as Jews understand it. Not tell them "well you see you got this part wrong and we know better".

Jesus violates the first commandment. No other Gods. Period. No sons, no holy ghosts. No trinity. One God.

Vic Hays
04-26-2012, 22:28
Because Catholic and all Christian doctrine is based on a false understanding of the Jewish doctrine of what the OT actually means as their ancestors wrote it. No matter what Christians of any kind want to believe, their interpretations of the OT are not correct and go against those with the best position to know better. It is all built on a false pretense.

.

Do you believe that the Jews have always had a correct understanding of the OT scripture?

Think about this:

The Jews are waiting for the Messiah. The Old Testament says that the Messiah would come to the second temple which was built and then destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
Jesus was in that temple and they did not accept Him.

What if Jesus was the Messiah and they missed it? If the Messiah didn't come then why not? Who would that Messiah be? How was the glory of the second temple greater than the temple built by Solomon?

Haggai 2:3 Who is left among you that saw this house in her first glory? and how do you see it now? is it not in your eyes in comparison of it as nothing?
2:4 Yet now be strong, O Zerubbabel, said the LORD; and be strong, O Joshua, son of Josedech, the high priest; and be strong, all you people of the land, said the LORD, and work: for I am with you, said the LORD of hosts:
2:5 According to the word that I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt, so my spirit remains among you: fear you not.
2:6 For thus said the LORD of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land;
2:7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, said the LORD of hosts.
2:8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, said the LORD of hosts.
2:9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, said the LORD of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, said the LORD of hosts.

juggy4711
04-26-2012, 22:54
Do you believe that the Jews have always had a correct understanding of the OT scripture?

Think about this:

The Jews are waiting for the Messiah. The Old Testament says that the Messiah would come to the second temple which was built and then destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.
Jesus was in that temple and they did not accept Him.
...

Yeah they wrote it, they are in the best position to have a correct understanding and know what it meant as it was written.

That is what you believe the OT says because it fits your beliefs. As for the specific passage. I'll consult a Jew before I take any Christians interpretation as Gospel, pun intended. I have made inquiries and will get back to you shortly.

Vic Hays
04-27-2012, 09:41
Yeah they wrote it, they are in the best position to have a correct understanding and know what it meant as it was written.

That is what you believe the OT says because it fits your beliefs. As for the specific passage. I'll consult a Jew before I take any Christians interpretation as Gospel, pun intended. I have made inquiries and will get back to you shortly.

You have to ask someone else what is written in the Bible?

juggy4711
04-27-2012, 19:42
You have to ask someone else what is written in the Bible?

Yep. See none of it was written in a language that I speak or read, and I'm guessing neither do you. Rather than trust the various translations over thousands of years I prefer to go to those I trust to relate to me the original intent as accurately as possible in a language I do comprehend. Crazy I know.

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 10:01
Yep. See none of it was written in a language that I speak or read, and I'm guessing neither do you. Rather than trust the various translations over thousands of years I prefer to go to those I trust to relate to me the original intent as accurately as possible in a language I do comprehend. Crazy I know.


Do you believe that God exists and has an interest in man including you? If so doesn't it make sense that He would be able to communicate with you more directly.

Here is what Jesus said about it.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 16:13 However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you.
16:15 All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it to you.

muscogee
04-29-2012, 11:17
Here is what Jesus said about it.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed; 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

People take that out of contest and usually misinterpret it. What was the truth Jesus spoke of? The truth according to Jesus was that the world was coming to an end within the lifetime of many of them listening to him speak. If you knew the truth (i.e., believed him) then you would be free from temporal needs like money and what it could buy. As Kris Kristofferson wrote, Freedom's just another word for noting left to loose". That's what Jesus meant by freedom.

Of course, Jesus was wrong about coming back and no one knows what happened to those who sold everything they had and gave it to the poor. I suspect they died in poverty still not realizing they had been following a false God.

Gunhaver
04-29-2012, 11:36
People take that out of contest and usually misinterpret it. What was the truth Jesus spoke of? The truth according to Jesus was that the world was coming to an end within the lifetime of many of them listening to him speak. If you knew the truth (i.e., believed him) then you would be free from temporal needs like money and what it could buy. As Kris Kristofferson wrote, Freedom's just another word for noting left to loose". That's what Jesus meant by freedom.

Of course, Jesus was wrong about coming back and no one knows what happened to those who sold everything they had and gave it to the poor. I suspect they died in poverty still not realizing they had been following a false God.

And considering the rampant materialism of many Christians I'd say that message gets more and more lost on them every day. Ironic that the political party that most Christians are aligned with today is the one that very much favors not giving their belongings to the poor.

Not that there's anything wrong with getting your piece of the pie, just don't be a hypocrite by simultaneously proclaiming to worship the hippy socialist "savior".

http://theamericanjesus.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/colbert-quote.jpg

Kingarthurhk
04-29-2012, 12:06
And considering the rampant materialism of many Christians I'd say that message gets more and more lost on them every day. Ironic that the political party that most Christians are aligned with today is the one that very much favors not giving their belongings to the poor.

Not that there's anything wrong with getting your piece of the pie, just don't be a hypocrite by simultaneously proclaiming to worship the hippy socialist "savior".

http://theamericanjesus.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/colbert-quote.jpg

I think you would be incorrect to apply such a broad brush. I am personally disgusted by both major political parties. Unchecked they want to cast personal liberty aside and their only dispute between them is how each of them can run our lives for us. I seen more gross iniquity from both sides than I have witnessed in my entire adult life.

I find it fascinating that despire the ammount of incompetency, self-serving, and iniquitous behavior by our elected officials the United States hasn't descended into what Nicaragua is like today.

There must be a God, otherwise this countries own stiff-necked, purposeful incompitence would have destroyed this country decades ago.

muscogee
04-29-2012, 15:01
And considering the rampant materialism of many Christians I'd say that message gets more and more lost on them every day. Ironic that the political party that most Christians are aligned with today is the one that very much favors not giving their belongings to the poor.

Not that there's anything wrong with getting your piece of the pie, just don't be a hypocrite by simultaneously proclaiming to worship the hippy socialist "savior".

http://theamericanjesus.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/colbert-quote.jpg

Great link.

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 15:11
I think you would be incorrect to apply such a broad brush. I am personally disgusted by both major political parties. Unchecked they want to cast personal liberty aside and their only dispute between them is how each of them can run our lives for us. I seen more gross iniquity from both sides than I have witnessed in my entire adult life.

I find it fascinating that despire the ammount of incompetency, self-serving, and iniquitous behavior by our elected officials the United States hasn't descended into what Nicaragua is like today.

There must be a God, otherwise this countries own stiff-necked, purposeful incompitence would have destroyed this country decades ago.

The four angels are holding back the winds of strife. When they let go, lookout.

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.