And then someone on another forum has to bring up the 45 Super... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 06:26
which gets me to doing research on it. Seems like it's an even easier conversion since you can use your existing barrel. Mostly just a spring change with a couple other small parts like a flat bottom firing pin stop. Ballistics look really good. I'd need some Starline 45 Super brass and Unique would be out of the question, probably should use a Mag large Pistol primer as well.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20Super&Weight=All&type=Handgun

JAS104
04-24-2012, 06:35
which gets me to doing research on it. Seems like it's an even easier conversion since you can use your existing barrel. Mostly just a spring change with a couple other small parts like a flat bottom firing pin stop. Ballistics look really good. I'd need some Starline 45 Super brass and Unique would be out of the question, probably should use a Mag large Pistol primer as well.
http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45%20Super&Weight=All&type=Handgun

From What I saw in the first link, theres a big jump in Kinetic Energy from the ACP to the Super. My only concern would be if its your range piece as well as your primary carry-- it might become expensive to train/plink with

faawrenchbndr
04-24-2012, 06:40
.45 ACP has been putting bad guys in the dirt for 100+ years,.....why change now? :dunno:

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 06:44
From What I saw in the first link, theres a big jump in Kinetic Energy from the ACP to the Super. My only concern would be if its your range piece as well as your primary carry-- it might become expensive to train/plink with

Doesn't seem like it'd be much more expensive to load then the standard 45acp once you buy up some Starline 45 Super brass.
I just wonder what all I'd need for the conversion? I know a heavier recoil spring, some say a heavier main spring as well and many use a flat bottom firing pin stop to increase dwell time so the gun won't unlock prematurely.
This might be a good cartridge to use a Compensator with since you'll have plenty of gas volume to work the Comp AND in a Commander length gun the Comp would add some mass to the system which would be a good thing with this hotter cartridge.
I really need to look into this a bit more and get a parts list made up. Might be a better alternative then a 400 Corbon since I can use the same loading dies so I'd not need to buy a new set.

JAS104
04-24-2012, 07:08
Doesn't seem like it'd be much more expensive to load then the standard 45acp once you buy up some Starline 45 Super brass.
I just wonder what all I'd need for the conversion? I know a heavier recoil spring, some say a heavier main spring as well and many use a flat bottom firing pin stop to increase dwell time so the gun won't unlock prematurely.
This might be a good cartridge to use a Compensator with since you'll have plenty of gas volume to work the Comp AND in a Commander length gun the Comp would add some mass to the system which would be a good thing with this hotter cartridge.
I really need to look into this a bit more and get a parts list made up. Might be a better alternative then a 400 Corbon since I can use the same loading dies so I'd not need to buy a new set.

Yeah definitely recoil spring and a new flat bottom firing pin stop. I don't think you'll need a mainspring actually. Its awesome you can maintain the same barrel. Ask Mas or Hicock45 if they have any more info. My only concern is the increased gas pressure. Do you have any idea the grain of a standard .45 super? I'm not too familiar with this particular cartridge

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 07:17
The Standard 45acp runs at 21,000 psi, the Super is running at 28,500 psi, well under the pressure for the 10mm Auto.
One guy was saying that he used in his full size a 22# recoil spring a 25# main spring(since he said this had more effect on slide velociety then the recoil spring) and a flat bottom FPS and that he's ran quite a few Super loads out of his gun with no ill effect.
Since I have a Commander size gun I'd probably go with a 26# recoil spring, 25# main spring, add a FLGR to help control the extra powerful recoil spring and add the Flat Bottom FPS. That should be enough to make the gun ready then I'd just need 45 Super brass and some jacketed bullets. Don't think my home cast would run too well at such high velocities.LOL.

Yes, FAA, I KNOW the 45acp works great, I just like to play around with stuff and love working on handloads and odd ball cartridges and stuff. It gives me something to do with my time until I can find a job.
Still, it would be kind of neat to go hog hunting with my Commander size 45. I think the 45 Super would be more then up to the task.

Rinspeed
04-24-2012, 07:44
What good is it?

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 07:49
What good is it?

More power.:whistling:

SDGlock23
04-24-2012, 08:00
It's an interesting cartridge for sure, there's some about it over in the big dawgs club. I have some 45 Super brass but haven't really messed with any of it yet.

MD357
04-24-2012, 08:03
It's not popular because it doesn't offer much performance difference than regular .45 +P loads. Brass wasn't cheap last time I looked but it's been awhile since I've seen any.

If you want some real power and versatility then go 10mm.

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 08:41
I'd say it offers a huge bump in power over the 45acp +P.
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm
185gr JHP @ 1387fps for 790 ft/lbs of energy, never seen a 45acp +P do that. We're talking a pretty serious hunting cartridge for deer size game out to 50 or even 75 yards in an accurate pistol.

RWBlue
04-24-2012, 08:53
The thing people don't understand is you can load the 45Super at 45ACP, 45ACP+P, 45ACP++P, 45Rowland, and beyond. The brass will hold in my barrel because it is well supported. The problem is, you can kill your gun in short order with hot loads.

So you have to decide how hot you want to go. If you are just looking for ++P I "think" you can get away with a heavy spring and guide rod. If you want to push very hard, get a compensator or suppressor.

BTW, I went G21 because I knew I could push it harder.

BTW2, I decided that I could not get enough power out of my 45Super to be happy hunting with it. IMHO, the problem is bullet construction.

RWBlue
04-24-2012, 09:00
I'd say it offers a huge bump in power over the 45acp +P.
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm
185gr JHP @ 1387fps for 790 ft/lbs of energy, never seen a 45acp +P do that. We're talking a pretty serious hunting cartridge for deer size game out to 50 or even 75 yards in an accurate pistol.

While I am thinking about it, I seem to remember one of the loads in realguns was seriously WRONG, but I don't have my load data with me.

RWBlue
04-24-2012, 09:05
It's not popular because it doesn't offer much performance difference than regular .45 +P loads. Brass wasn't cheap last time I looked but it's been awhile since I've seen any.

If you want some real power and versatility then go 10mm.

Right now you can buy semi-custom 10mm that is very powerful. It will run in a factory gun.

The 45Super needs a custom gun and custom loads to get everything out of it.

dnuggett
04-24-2012, 09:53
.45 ACP has been putting bad guys in the dirt for 100+ years,.....why change now? :dunno:

Because man likes to tinker with ****. That's what we do.
I am in the camp that my carry 1911 in .45 ACP is good enough for me. I do like tinkering though... just wouldn't carry it.

NeverMore1701
04-24-2012, 09:57
I've always been interested in the .45 Super and .460 Rowland, just don't know much at all about them.

JAS104
04-24-2012, 10:20
I'd say it offers a huge bump in power over the 45acp +P.
http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm
185gr JHP @ 1387fps for 790 ft/lbs of energy, never seen a 45acp +P do that. We're talking a pretty serious hunting cartridge for deer size game out to 50 or even 75 yards in an accurate pistol.

Especially if you had a good quality decent length barreled 1911. Only thing is I feel if you were to go for a buck with a 10mm you'd lose some meat for harvest. Freakin exit wound from one of those badboys would be scary.

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 11:55
It really strikes me as odd how some of ya'll will defend your purchase of a $3K-$4K 1911 by saying "Need doesn't enter into it, you simply wanted it." but me wanting something like a 400 Corbon or 45 Super starts drawing all kinds of comments about "why would you need that?" or "What good is it?". Seems almost like the pot calling the kettle black IMHO. "Need" doesn't enter into it, as a handloader I simply think it'd be fun to play with a round that's not mainstream like the 45acp is. :upeyes:

MD357
04-24-2012, 12:17
It really strikes me as odd how some of ya'll will defend your purchase of a $3K-$4K 1911 by saying "Need doesn't enter into it, you simply wanted it." but me wanting something like a 400 Corbon or 45 Super starts drawing all kinds of comments about "why would you need that?" or "What good is it?". Seems almost like the pot calling the kettle black IMHO. "Need" doesn't enter into it, as a handloader I simply think it'd be fun to play with a round that's not mainstream like the 45acp is. :upeyes:

and there we have the patented hissy fit towards custom 1911 owners...... :rofl:

FWIW Frank I think a lot of people just replied on your practicality inquiries. Seems many people have been there done that and figured out that there are better alternatives for them. However, since you like to tinker..... by all means..... convert away and post how everything works out.

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 16:00
and there we have the patented hissy fit towards custom 1911 owners


No "Hissy Fit" to it. I just think if "Want" is good enough for them then "Want" is good enough for me. :whistling:

mleroux21
04-24-2012, 19:44
I see nothing wrong with wanting to get anything for yourself. You just need to figure out if the minimal increases are worth the cost of changing over. Personally, I would go with a 10mm over a 460 or 400 corbon. If I didnt go wtih one of those I would just go with a 45 +p. But everyone is different. Hell, I got a 50 GI a 10mm and a few 45's. Diversity keeps life exciting.

Marc

glock2740
04-24-2012, 19:59
I see nothing wrong with wanting to get anything for yourself. You just need to figure out if the minimal increases are worth the cost of changing over. Personally, I would go with a 10mm over a 460 or 400 corbon. If I didnt go wtih one of those I would just go with a 45 +p. But everyone is different. Hell, I got a 50 GI a 10mm and a few 45's. Diversity keeps life exciting.

Marc
:goodpost: I agree 100%.

TN.Frank
04-24-2012, 21:37
UMMM, 50G.I.:perfect10:
I think the most cost effective way to get a ton of power out of the 1911 is probably the 45 Super. I mean we're talking a couple springs, a flat bottom FPS and some 45 Super brass. It just doesn't get cheaper or more simple then that.
10mm Auto would require an entire top end, new mags, new loading dies along with 10mm Auto brass, not nearly as cost effective.
I've still got a few things I want to get worked out with the gun first like installing a new barrel link and pin and fitting a new barrel bushing before I start to move into the world of high power but I'm sure it'll happen sooner rather then later.

glock2740
04-24-2012, 22:41
The .460 Rowland is a bad mofo too. :cool:

mleroux21
04-24-2012, 23:14
Frank you might want to check to see if your ATI can handle a 45 Super. I know a few of the Phillipino 1911's were not recommended for use with the 460 Rowland. I dont know if it is the same with the super.

Camu Mahubah
04-25-2012, 03:13
Frank you might want to check to see if your ATI can handle a 45 Super. I know a few of the Phillipino 1911's were not recommended for use with the 460 Rowland. I dont know if it is the same with the super.

That's kinda what I was thinking...but I don't know anythang yet...and I own a Metro.

SigFTW
04-25-2012, 07:19
It's not popular because it doesn't offer much performance difference than regular .45 +P loads. Brass wasn't cheap last time I looked but it's been awhile since I've seen any.

If you want some real power and versatility then go 10mm.
:agree: Just buy a 10mm, that's all you need if you want more power.

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 08:02
Frank you might want to check to see if your ATI can handle a 45 Super. I know a few of the Phillipino 1911's were not recommended for use with the 460 Rowland. I dont know if it is the same with the super.

The 460 Rowland was developed to try and get 44 Mag specs out of a 1911, it's actually 1/10" longer then the standard 45acp case and you have to do a barrel change in order to use it.
The 45 Super was more in the vein of a 45acp +p++ load. It works at 28,000 psi, the standard 45acp is at 21,000 and the +P is 23,000 psi. Both the 10mm Auto and 38 super work at much higher chamber pressures(32,000 to 35,000 psi IIRC) so a standard 45acp that's in good shape with the proper mods should hold up fine. I'd probably stick with the Tatical loadings of the 45 Super which aren't as hot as the full power loadings but still get you into 45acp +p+ territory.
Like I've said, first thing is to get the gun set up with a new link and pin, barrel bushing, Flat Bottom FPS, ext so it's running as good as it can with standard 45acp. Then I can see about heavier springs and 45 Super brass and I can start working on loads for it.

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 08:03
:agree: Just buy a 10mm, that's all you need if you want more power.

Easy to say when you've not been unemployed for 2 and a half years.:upeyes:

pezzulli
04-25-2012, 09:56
Ace Custom Gunsmithing have done a lot of research and testing of the 45 Super and offer a number of conversion packages.

http://www.acecustom45s.com/45super.htm

MD357
04-25-2012, 10:34
Easy to say when you've not been unemployed for 2 and a half years.:upeyes:

If that's the case, then personally I wouldn't be wanting to play around with expensive niche calibers. You're not going to notice any difference at the range. YMMV.

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 12:19
If that's the case, then personally I wouldn't be wanting to play around with expensive niche calibers.

Not any more expensive to handload then the 45acp that I'm loading now but then I take it that you wouldn't know anything about that since you're rich and all and only shoot factory stuff.:tongueout:

MD357
04-25-2012, 12:28
Not any more expensive to handload then the 45acp that I'm loading now but then I take it that you wouldn't know anything about that since you're rich and all and only shoot factory stuff.:tongueout:

Frank, you're about as bad as Obama when it comes to bringing up class warfare. Especially, when it has no bearing on the conversation. Last I checked Starline brass was more expensive for .45 super and like I said..... it's retarded to me to play with niche calibers on a limited income but hey.... by all means if it makes you feel tougher at the range. :cool:

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 12:47
IIRC Midway has the Starline 45 Super cases for around $23/100. Figure 100 would be about all I'd need to start with AND the 45 Super would make a heck of a good short range hog gun to use in a 1911 platform. My cousin has a lot of wild hogs on his property and I'd love to hunt one with a handgun.

Wil Ufgood
04-25-2012, 13:08
http://www.breitbart.com/bigjournalism/files/2011/09/leave-barry-alone.jpg

faawrenchbndr
04-25-2012, 13:58
Easy to say when you've not been unemployed for 2 and a half years.:upeyes:

Not any more expensive to handload then the 45acp that I'm loading now but then I take it that you wouldn't know anything about that since you're rich and all and only shoot factory stuff.:tongueout:



I'm not rich, but I am far from poor. I've worked since I was
11 years old delivering news papers. I was out of work for 18 months
a few years back. However, we moved and I got a job. I work
12 hour shifts as a Weldor since the aircraft industry sux with
the economy. Casting bullets while unemployed?! Get off your
*** and find a job. They are there, ya just gotta look!

So drop the sob story! Get off your *** & fix the problem!

Mayhem like Me
04-25-2012, 14:03
I don't like 45S in 1911's however they can be done , I had a USP expert that I shot 1000 rounds of 45 super through that I had given to me. The expert shot them with ease, but I would not make a steady diet of them in a 1911 unless it was built for them.

After shooting the 45 super and running 230 grain target loads it was like when I had my Python and woudl shoot wadcutters after full power magnum loads.

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 14:16
Get off your
*** and find a job. They are there, ya just gotta look!


I've applied for 3 jobs in the last week and a half, so duhh, :dunno:
Small town, not a lot of work around here and NO I'm not moving to a Big City, been there, done that, got the frickin' T-Shirt. :upeyes:

RWBlue
04-25-2012, 17:20
Get off your
*** and find a job. They are there, ya just gotta look!


I am trying to figure out a way of saying this nicely. Maybe there isn't a nice way of saying this.

I use to be one of those that could never imagine being unemployed and not being able to find anything I was qualified for to apply to. The world is not that way any more.

I am currently employees and living in hell. There are people with ties to a locality. If I was one of those people ....

Did I make my point nicely, or do I need to be more blunt?

faawrenchbndr
04-25-2012, 18:39
Don't complain about being unemployed for TWO & A HALF YEARS
if you are not willing to get out of a small town with no jobs!

I'm not going to apologize, there is no reason to, either don't
complain or get out & make a change, make your future happen!

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 18:53
Don't complain about being unemployed for TWO & A HALF YEARS
if you are not willing to get out of a small town with no jobs!

I'm not going to apologize, there is no reason to, either don't
complain or get out & make a change, make your future happen!

I'm not moving any where. I'm 51, my wife is 57, she has a great job 30 miles away in Cookeville. The State will be buying the house to expand the road in a couple years, at that time we'll move to the outskirts of Cookeville but that's it. I'm getting too old to put up with all the jerks and traffic in a Big City anymore.
Besides, I'm not complaining about anything, I was just stating a fact. The Economy sucks right now, lots of folks are out of work and can't find a job, especially us older folks.
I was helping my buddy install carpet a year ago but his diabetes started bothering him to the point were he couldn't work anymore, he's going on disability so that took care of that. Not like I've been sitting on my thumb for the last 2 and a half years. I've applied for quite a number of jobs, done odd jobs to help make ends meet.
I think you should maybe step back and just see the big picture here. It's not all as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Of course it's easy to talk about something when you're not in the same boat. If Obama gets in for another 4 years they'll be a lot more folks out of work.

faawrenchbndr
04-25-2012, 18:58
"Older folks"? I'm NOT that far behind you 'Frank!......I know
people that drive up to 75 miles to work. Sure sounded like complaining
to me, but what ever. Guess I'm a bit blunt, but I have no patience
for those who do not help themselves!

TN.Frank
04-25-2012, 19:06
I have no patience
for those who do not help themselves!

Neither do I, that's why it strikes me as funny when folks won't work on their own cars/truck/guns and always have to send them out for a "Professional" go fix or work on them.
I've always had to do things for myself be it automotive work, firearms work , loading ammunition or even stuff around the house like plumbing and electrical. I really can't tolerate helpless people.

Wil Ufgood
04-25-2012, 21:43
I'll tell you after reading some of these posts I have to say I'm in awe of Frank. Hell my wife gives me grief for buying a new holster. Holy sheet, I can only dream of sending my wife off to work while I tinker with my toys.

ithaca_deerslayer
04-25-2012, 22:25
TN.Frank, I'm definitely on your side with this one.

I don't even reload, and do buy all those shiny new factory rounds. But here you come up with a reloading idea on a gun forum and discuss the idea and the implications.

And pretty soon the topic drifts, with plenty of help from you, to the nature of unemployment.

Some day I might buy a 10mm. I think they are a really good idea for a bear stopping, rhino dropping, woods stomp gun.

In the meantime I've wondered how effective my .45 ACP is. And here you are with ideas on improving it.

Frank, keep tinkering. Keep coming up with ideas. No reason to stop thinking and creating just because you are unemployed.

And I tell you what, personally from my point of view, I'll trust you to make your own decisions about your own employment situation and wherever you choose to live, and whatever hobbies you want to dabble in :)

I don't even expect you to approve of my own buying decisions in return :rofl:

RWBlue
04-25-2012, 22:42
T
Some day I might buy a 10mm. I think they are a really good idea for a bear stopping, rhino dropping, woods stomp gun.

In the meantime I've wondered how effective my .45 ACP is. And here you are with ideas on improving it.


Back on topic.

I think the 10mm and 45Super have the same issue..bullet construction. If you are casting your own you have an advantage I didn't have when testing.

I was able to turn a JHP inside out with the 45Super. With the lighter weight bullets they expanded so quickly and then tier dropped. Penetration was not a problem, but I am not sure if they would kill a deer or just put a hole in one.

WinterWizard
04-25-2012, 22:43
.45 super only offers 150 fps more over .45 acp +p. If your gun can handle the conversion and extra power, I say go for the .460 Rowland. Bye bye, little piggies.

SigFTW
04-26-2012, 07:04
Easy to say when you've not been unemployed for 2 and a half years.:upeyes:

As much as you like tinkering you should go be a gunsmith.:whistling:

Camu Mahubah
04-26-2012, 09:58
Back on topic.

I think the 10mm and 45Super have the same issue..bullet construction. If you are casting your own you have an advantage I didn't have when testing.

I was able to turn a JHP inside out with the 45Super. With the lighter weight bullets they expanded so quickly and then tier dropped. Penetration was not a problem, but I am not sure if they would kill a deer or just put a hole in one.

I wonder if the XTP would turn inside out. The design has a reputation for being highly accurate but not expanding as much as other defense HP's. I bet that would be the ticket. I bet it would be accurate and hold up to the .45 Super power levels.

Mayhem like Me
04-26-2012, 11:29
.45 super only offers 150 fps more over .45 acp +p. If your gun can handle the conversion and extra power, I say go for the .460 Rowland. Bye bye, little piggies.

I have seen 45 super 185s clock at over 1485 from my expert that is plenty wrm for a hog.

I have 230 grainers at 1250....

faawrenchbndr
04-26-2012, 12:42
As much as you like tinkering you should go be a gunsmith.:whistling:


That's a darn good idea,.....'Frank, have you about doing minor
Gunsmithing jobs? Could easily be done from the home, very
little space needed. You could also do some reloading.

TN.Frank
04-26-2012, 12:49
That's a darn good idea,.....'Frank, have you about doing minor
Gunsmithing jobs? Could easily be done from the home, very
little space needed. You could also do some reloading.

I did look into reloading but you need to get a permit to reload and sell. Also there's the liability to think about. Same deal with working as a gun smith without a license. Liability.
I did want to go to Gun Smithing school when I was younger but got no encouragement from my folks, they wanted me to be an Engineer(no, not on a train, the kind that designs stuff). Ended up going to DeVry and got an Electronics Tech. Cert. in '83. Then in '05 I went back to school and got a CAD/Detailed Drafting Degree. Lot of good that does, no Drafting jobs here but I did get voted Student of the Quarter and graduated with a 3.8 GPA. Wish I'd have studied that hard when I was a youngster.
I've done lot of reloading and gun smithing work for friends and relatives but nothing commercial mostly because of the liability involved.

RWBlue
04-26-2012, 14:26
.45 super only offers 150 fps more over .45 acp +p. If your gun can handle the conversion and extra power, I say go for the .460 Rowland. Bye bye, little piggies.

You don't need the extra cartridge length. The 45Super brass will do 460 Rowland loads.

I wonder if the XTP would turn inside out. The design has a reputation for being highly accurate but not expanding as much as other defense HP's. I bet that would be the ticket. I bet it would be accurate and hold up to the .45 Super power levels.

I liked the XTP in 44mag, so they were one of my first choices.

At the power I was shooting them, it turned the inside out.