"survivalist" holed up against LE [Archive] - Glock Talk

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jdavionic
04-28-2012, 08:56
I'll preface by saying this thread is not intended to judge his innocence or guilt, nor is it meant to wish ill will on any of the people involved. There is another thread for that aspect of the discussion.

The purpose here is look at the situation from purely an S&P perspective. This guy has apparently built a bunker, stockpiled supplies, and prepared for TEOTWAWKI. He is now in a situation where he MAY be trapped by people who want to CAPTURE him (note, that's a key difference versus the extreme that he prepared for).

So you've got one group on the outside with rules to follow and him on the inside.

Any thoughts from an S&P perspective?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/27/swat-teams-surround-seattle-urvivalist-bunker/

Some observations -

is it a bunker with only one way in & out? something to think about if you're fortunate enough to have land and the ability to build your own.
it appears gas masks have served him well
water - if he had a gas mask, i'd assume he also has a good supply of water. Those that are hunting him are going to be unwilling to give up. without water, he'd have to poke out eventually. In a TEOTWAWKI, how long do you think a group would wait before either moving up or taking more dramatic & destructive steps?
if they "can see movement", is it really that good of a bunker?
air source - where is he getting it from and how well protected is it?
Anyway...these are just some initial thoughts along the lines that I was thinking would be of interest here.

What are yours?

Ronaldo
04-28-2012, 09:13
I'm less concerned about what he may or may not have done then the media relentlessly labeling suspects as 'survivalists.'

This term is being made into a pejorative description, and not at all representing what survivalism (or perparedness) is all about.

Just like the word 'gay', it has been transformed into something evil and unnatural.

I have no respect for the media and indeed, consider it to be nothing but a shill and ancillary prostitute to the government, only serving the purpose of disseminating lies and distortions to aid the powers-that-be. Just another inaccurate and untruthful supplier of liberal and statist propaganda.

Ronaldo

Aceman
04-28-2012, 09:22
They might "see" movement with all sorts of IR/UV/Sound goodies....

jdavionic
04-28-2012, 09:29
I'd be curious how they found the bunker. The photo doesn't look like something that was taken as part of the current situation. So did he post & boast about his bunker? This is often a topic discussed...telling neighbors & friends too much info, etc.

wrenrj1
04-28-2012, 09:34
I'd be curious how they found the bunker. The photo doesn't look like something that was taken as part of the current situation. So did he post & boast about his bunker? This is often a topic discussed...telling neighbors & friends too much info, etc.

He had pics of the bunker and info. on the location at home according to the article I read.

jdavionic
04-28-2012, 09:35
He had pics of the bunker and info. on the location at home according to the article I read.

Thanks.

UneasyRider
04-28-2012, 10:20
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.

Devans0
04-28-2012, 11:17
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.

A tunnel would be too expensive to me. I don't see much difference between a jail cell and being bunkered up long term. "Course that is conjecture. I haven't done either one.

kirgi08
04-28-2012, 12:22
I believe they found the body.'08.

BORNGEARHEAD
04-28-2012, 12:32
Innocent until proven guilty.

BORNGEARHEAD
04-28-2012, 13:01
Anybody get the feeling that the media is gonna start painting "survivalists"?

jdavionic
04-28-2012, 13:30
Anybody get the feeling that the media is gonna start painting "survivalists"?

That's been the trend for some time now...Doomsday Preppers is not about offering a show about preppers for preppers. It's all about portraying preppers as irrational radicals.

Aceman
04-28-2012, 13:45
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.

again - goes to my argument; wack job.

Prepper, perhaps.
Survivalist, maybe.
Nut job idiot - DEFINITELY.


His "bunker" looks like a very well dug hole in the ground, honestly. And this gets back to my whole Doomsday prpper issue - MOST people going to this level of effort are not well balanced / sensible. They are 200% on some issues, and 20% on others.

No escape hatch = fail.

And the whole POINT of this activity is to SURVIVE. Offing yourself is second to last on my list of acceptible prepper activities, right before Be eaten alive/crushed by asteroid/go down shooting, etc...by whatever it is you are surviving against.

On that note also, the Doomsday preppers are part of the "Extreme" series....so of course they put the wack jobs on. They make for the best TV.

No one wants to see a house with a .357 and and 870, 30 days of dried food that is stored, and a bag with basic survival gear packed.

I'd really like to see detailed maps/pics of his hidey-hole!

AK_Stick
04-28-2012, 16:38
The problem with a back door, is that you now have to conceal, defend, and build a second entrance, as well as worry about keeping it closed. And unless you've got a huge pile of money, there isn't a real lot of use for one, in this sort of instance, because the police cordon is typically big enough to encompass any realistic escape hatch distance.


If they were using thermal, which I'm sure they were from a helicopter or something, a wooden hatch would be fairly easy to spot, unless he was a solid pro at concealing his location, and knew what they would be using to ID the location.

UneasyRider
04-28-2012, 19:10
The problem with a back door, is that you now have to conceal, defend, and build a second entrance, as well as worry about keeping it closed. And unless you've got a huge pile of money, there isn't a real lot of use for one, in this sort of instance, because the police cordon is typically big enough to encompass any realistic escape hatch distance.


If they were using thermal, which I'm sure they were from a helicopter or something, a wooden hatch would be fairly easy to spot, unless he was a solid pro at concealing his location, and knew what they would be using to ID the location.

It's really not that hard (conceptually) to put a 3 foot diameter pipe in a deep trench for some distance, especially if you were to build into an existing crevice or cranny and cover it with earth. A backhoe would do a nice job of this. At the end one might try a T in the pipe going vertically say 4 feet up and four feet below. The downward hinged steel doors on the top pipe could be nicely covered with a wooden frame of the same diameter filled with sand so that when the doors drop open the sand falls into the trap and six inches of top soil and grass is all that keeps you from getting out the back door.

pugman
04-28-2012, 19:16
Innocent until proven guilty.

While I agree on this...hard to believe he wasn't guilty. Not that it really matters now since he shot himself.

Way to many questions which can't be answered without pointing to his guilt.

If he didn't kill them...why was he hiding in his bunker? It is a possibility he was running for his life from someone who did in fact kill them?

However, even if this is true when he was finally surrounded by the police - why not give himself up.

At the very least this guy was imbalanced and played some hand in it. If he wasn't the trigger man, something he said or did resulted in his beautiful wife and daughter being slain.

TangoFoxtrot
04-28-2012, 20:03
Another problem is the news source...FOXnews.

SFCSMITH(RET)
04-29-2012, 06:12
Anybody get the feeling that the media is gonna start painting "survivalists"?

You need to get out of the garage more often.. :wavey:

as far as the build itself..

If I was building a hiding place, just as a hiding place, not expecting or planning to use/need it against well equipped SWAT teams and such, but just as SHTF hole up, I may not bother with grenade sumps/convergent fields of fire/escape tunnels etc.

Or it could be he had not gotten to building them yet. Who here is "done"?

And while lots of ideas have been raised about how he could have done better/ best way to add tunnels etc.. doing it by hand, on the sly, in a rain forest, alone.. unless you have ever tried to do such a thing.. well...

Not saying I have, no rain forest here..:whistling:

kirgi08
04-29-2012, 12:41
You need to get out of the garage more often.. :wavey:

as far as the build itself..

If I was building a hiding place, just as a hiding place, not expecting or planning to use/need it against well equipped SWAT teams and such, but just as SHTF hole up, I may not bother with grenade sumps/convergent fields of fire/escape tunnels etc.

Or it could be he had not gotten to building them yet. Who here is "done"?

And while lots of ideas have been raised about how he could have done better/ best way to add tunnels etc.. doing it by hand, on the sly, in a rain forest, alone.. unless you have ever tried to do such a thing.. well...

Not saying I have, no rain forest here..:whistling:

:mememe:

jdavionic
04-29-2012, 14:22
And while lots of ideas have been raised about how he could have done better/ best way to add tunnels etc.. doing it by hand, on the sly, in a rain forest, alone.. unless you have ever tried to do such a thing.. well...

Not saying I have, no rain forest here..:whistling:

Well, as I said in the OP...just looking to learn.

For a bunker of that type, is that something you'd want to have an "escape" tunnel? What are the pros & cons? More people are looking at using buried shipping containers as a bunker (including a good friend of mine). Not sure it makes sense or not.

Gas masks...just another example of why one is good to have.

Seeing movement within his bunker...this one is interesting. I guess it depends on the intent of your bunker. Some people build them with the intent to be able to hide in a relatively secure place until things calm down. Others build to survive an attack. Some do both. Who knows what this guy's rationale was for the construction.

Air source...once the place is discovered, attacking the air source would be a key source of vulnerability if you didn't plan well.

AK_Stick
04-29-2012, 17:07
It's really not that hard (conceptually) to put a 3 foot diameter pipe in a deep trench for some distance, especially if you were to build into an existing crevice or cranny and cover it with earth. A backhoe would do a nice job of this. At the end one might try a T in the pipe going vertically say 4 feet up and four feet below. The downward hinged steel doors on the top pipe could be nicely covered with a wooden frame of the same diameter filled with sand so that when the doors drop open the sand falls into the trap and six inches of top soil and grass is all that keeps you from getting out the back door.


That would work, but moving any real length of 3 ft diameter pipe, assembling at the site, and getting the area dug, and re-covered without anyone noticing, while still concealing the job is the bear.


But I agree, it can be done.

Allfal
04-29-2012, 23:01
Nobody makes a bunker without a back end tunnel, do they? I mean I am just guessing as I have no practical experience but it would make sense to me.

PACE. Primary, alternative, contingent, exigent. His 2nd biggest mistake, other than the alleged homicide, was sharing the info. His 1st was PACE.

beatcop
04-30-2012, 06:29
Guy was just a criminal looking for a hole to hide in...nothing more.

-there will always be some fool the media will locate who will provide a "factual" quote about you...your co-workers aren't your friends.

DustyJacket
04-30-2012, 07:08
They first got the general location because they smelled the wood smoke from the bunker. Something to think about.

Looks like he had ventilation (from the photos) but he had a dirt floor and dirt walls covered by wood. There must have been a lot of humidity in there. Not good for supplies and metal objects.

It was a good start, though.

I have only lightly considered a back door to my thoughts (fantasy?) of a shelter, but it is a go0d idea, especially if debris from a tornado or a fire block the main door.


http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120429050127-bunker-o5-horizontal-gallery.jpg


His ammo was in plastic bags, though.
Didn't see any photos on CNN of food and water. That would have been interesting.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/dam/assets/120429043842-bunket-supply-horizontal-gallery.jpg

AK_Stick
04-30-2012, 07:24
Having a wood stove, would have helped with the humidity, because they'll actually pull water out of the air.