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ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 09:55
Given that there's no shortage of passionate Sabbath threads, what is one more...

It seems that even Vic has stopped short of answering "yes", so I would like to know who believes that those who would otherwise be destined for heaven, but are mistakenly worshipping on the wrong day of the week (or perhaps the single mom that works weekends at Wal-Mart) are destined for hell.

-ArtificialGrape

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 10:06
Given that there's no shortage of passionate Sabbath threads, what is one more...

It seems that even Vic has stopped short of answering "yes", so I would like to know who believes that those who would otherwise be destined for heaven, but are mistakenly worshipping on the wrong day of the week (or perhaps the single mom that works weekends at Wal-Mart) are destined for hell.

-ArtificialGrape

We are all destined for hell unless there is repentance.

Sincerity is not an excuse for faith.

God is able to overlook our "mistakes". It is willful disobedience that He will not overlook.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent:
17:31 Because he has appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he has ordained; whereof he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 10:15
We are all destined for hell unless there is repentance.

Sincerity is not an excuse for faith.

God is able to overlook our "mistakes". It is willful disobedience that He will not overlook.
So for anybody that has now read your argument on keeping/honoring the seventh day Sabbath, if they do not change and repent, are they now in the realm of willful disobedience?

-ArtificialGrape

Brasso
04-29-2012, 12:53
Willful disobedience. If they don't believe the 7th Day is the Sabbath then I hope their ignorance will be over looked. Just like all the commandments. But a day is coming.

Act 17:30 “Truly, then, having overlooked these times of ignorance, Elohim now commands all men everywhere to repent,
Act 17:31 because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed, having given proof of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Jer 16:19 O יהוה, my strength and my stronghold and my refuge, in the day of distress the gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers have inherited only falsehood, futility, and there is no value in them.”

Mal 4:4 “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and judgements.
Mal 4:5 “See, I am sending you Ěliyah the prophet before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.
Mal 4:6 “And he shall turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with utter destruction.”

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 15:01
So for anybody that has now read your argument on keeping/honoring the seventh day Sabbath, if they do not change and repent, are they now in the realm of willful disobedience?

-ArtificialGrape

Why are you asking me to make that judgment?

We must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

II Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

ancient_serpent
04-29-2012, 15:21
Many of my beliefs are the same as the SDA church. I go to church on Saturday, but I'm not goign to judge someone for going on another day. My belief is that God speaks to us all differently. I think there are far too many things we all have in common as Christians to maintain a focu on our differences.
I wonder if Christ would want us to sit back and judge each other, or try to go out and do good? That wasn't meant towards anyone in a negative way. I just think that if for every argument or debate about the subtle nuances between religions, the participants went out and volunteered at a homeless shelter, or visited the sick or old, we'd all be better off.

packsaddle
04-29-2012, 15:22
what do you care, atheist?

Tilley
04-29-2012, 15:34
Christ performed miracles and healed others on the Sabbath...and King David and his band of merry men broke into a temple and ate up all the bread on a Sabbath. Hmmmm...

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 16:07
Christ performed miracles and healed others on the Sabbath...and King David and his band of merry men broke into a temple and ate up all the bread on a Sabbath. Hmmmm...

Why do people have such a poor opinion about the Sabbath?
Jesus taught that it was made for man and that it was a day to do good for others.

Isaiah 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

Luke 14:3 And Jesus answering spoke unto the doctors of the law and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath?
14:4 But they were silent. And taking him he healed him and let him go.
14:5 And answering he said to them, Of which of you shall an ass or ox fall into a well, that he does not straightway pull him up on the sabbath day?
14:6 And they were not able to answer him to these things.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 16:33
what do you care, atheist?
Fair enough, I'm just curious as to why it is such a passionate topic when nobody (so far) has argued that it will destine somebody for hell. From what everybody is saying, in the big picture it really doesn't matter.

-ArtificialGrape

Tilley
04-29-2012, 19:39
Fair enough, I'm just curious as to why it is such a passionate topic when nobody (so far) has argued that it will destine somebody for hell. From what everybody is saying, in the big picture it really doesn't matter.

-ArtificialGrape

I think you are starting to feel "sour grapes" about your road to perdition and you're looking to see what partners you may have on your way to the sulfur mines...:devildance: :devildance: :devildance:

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 19:42
Fair enough, I'm just curious as to why it is such a passionate topic when nobody (so far) has argued that it will destine somebody for hell. From what everybody is saying, in the big picture it really doesn't matter.

-ArtificialGrape

There is a problem with your question. You cannot honor God while you are honoring the Beast.

Would your doctor feel honored if you showed up a day late for an appointment?

The topic is passionate because there is a conflict between satan and Christ.

The fourth commandment is the only commandment that points exclusively to the Creator.

The question is honoring and trusting God or honoring and trusting man.

satan claims control of the kingdoms of this world both religious and political.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

The world by and large has taken satan up on it:

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 20:05
I think you are starting to feel "sour grapes" about your road to perdition and you're looking to see what partners you may have on your way to the sulfur mines...:devildance: :devildance: :devildance:
See you at the after-party, you Sunday Worshipper. :cool:

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 20:11
There is a problem with your question. You cannot honor God while you are honoring the Beast.

The topic is passionate because there is a conflict between satan and Christ.
So why won't you just come out and draw the conclusion that seems obvious from your posts... Yes, Sunday worshippers are destined for hell.

-ArtificialGrape

juggy4711
04-29-2012, 20:11
Not enough choices for me to vote. I need one that states: I'm not religious, God does not need or require worship and there is no such thing as heaven or hell.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 20:16
Not enough choices for me to vote. I need one that states: I'm not religious, God does not need or require worship and there is no such thing as heaven or hell.
The 4th option, rejecting the premise of hell, seems to apply.

juggy4711
04-29-2012, 20:27
The 4th option, rejecting the premise of hell, seems to apply.

Sure but what kind of hell are you referencing there?

Gunhaver
04-29-2012, 20:34
Sure but what kind of hell are you referencing there?

I would imagine that would be the really bad kind. You know, the kind you don't want to end up in.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 20:37
Sure but what kind of hell are you referencing there?

I would imagine that would be the really bad kind. You know, the kind you don't want to end up in.

Your choice, but like Gunhaver, I'm thinking unpleasant.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 20:47
In the end, I don't think that I have the right or ability to judge anyone's actions on the Sabbath.
I guess it's a good thing that you weren't an Israelite since the instructions were to put to death anybody that works on the Sabbath (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2031:12-15&version=NIV).

-ArtificialGrape

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 23:10
I guess it's a good thing that you weren't an Israelite since the instructions were to put to death anybody that works on the Sabbath (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2031:12-15&version=NIV).

-ArtificialGrape

Not exactly anybody but there was one man that God judged:

Numbers 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

ArtificialGrape
04-29-2012, 23:28
Not exactly anybody...

"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death" seems reasonably clear to me.

-ArtificialGrape

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 23:37
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death" seems reasonably clear to me.

-ArtificialGrape

The fact is that there is record of many persons violating the Sabbath who were not put to death. God made that judgment for one person. None of us humans are innocent.

Jeremiah 17:21 Thus said the LORD; Take heed to yourselves, and bear no burden on the sabbath day, nor bring it in by the gates of Jerusalem;
17:22 Neither carry forth a burden out of your houses on the sabbath day, neither do you any work, but hallow you the sabbath day, as I commanded your fathers.
17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
17:24 And it shall come to pass, if you diligently listen to me, said the LORD, to bring in no burden through the gates of this city on the sabbath day, but hallow the sabbath day, to do no work therein;
17:25 Then shall there enter into the gates of this city kings and princes sitting on the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, they, and their princes, the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: and this city shall remain for ever.

ArtificialGrape
04-30-2012, 00:09
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death" seems reasonably clear to me.

The fact is that there is record of many persons violating the Sabbath who were not put to death. God made that judgment for one person. None of us humans are innocent.
So God's instructions were not followed, that does not change the fact that those instructions were clear.

-ArtificialGrape

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 00:57
So God's instructions were not followed, that does not change the fact that those instructions were clear.

-ArtificialGrape

Clear for one man. There is no blanket commandment to put to death those who do not keep the Sabbath.
You are trying to add to the Bible.

There will be a commandment to kill those who reject the Mark of the Beast though.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

This is parallel to the OT:
Daniel 3:6 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
3:7 Therefore at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and all kinds of musick, all the people, the nations, and the languages, fell down and worshipped the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king had set up.
3:8 Wherefore at that time certain Chaldeans came near, and accused the Jews.
3:9 They spake and said to the king Nebuchadnezzar, O king, live for ever.
3:10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, shall fall down and worship the golden image:

3:11 And whoso falleth not down and worshippeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
3:12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
3:13 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.
3:14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
3:15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made; well: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who is that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?

ArtificialGrape
04-30-2012, 07:50
Clear for one man. There is no blanket commandment to put to death those who do not keep the Sabbath.
You are trying to add to the Bible.
Looking at the verses in question, Exodus 31:12-15:
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

“‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death.
Is there some other meaning of "anyone" that I'm not understanding?

What exactly am I trying to add to the Bible?

-ArtificialGrape

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 08:38
Looking at the verses in question, Exodus 31:12-15:
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

“‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death.
Is there some other meaning of "anyone" that I'm not understanding?

What exactly am I trying to add to the Bible?

-ArtificialGrape

I was mistaken. You are correct. Apparently God is serious about the Sabbath.

Israel was a theocracy at the beginning. God provided direct judgment. National Israel is no longer that theocracy, however, The moral laws cannot be changed. What was written on stone is to be written on the heart of the born again Christian. God will do all the phases of judging both investigatively and executively.

It is not up to believers to execute judgment other than keeping the Church straight as defined by Jesus in Matthew 18.

Now, what are you going to do with the Sabbath? Will you accept it as a blessing from God or will you acccept the mark of the beast? Remember the mark of the beast can be taken without faith. The Sabbath can only be a blessing through faith.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

ArtificialGrape
04-30-2012, 09:08
I was mistaken. You are correct. Apparently God is serious about the Sabbath.
...
It is not up to believers to execute judgment other than keeping the Church straight as defined by Jesus in Matthew 18.

Now, what are you going to do with the Sabbath?
Saturday is usually my long run, followed by chores around the house, and often taking the family out for dinner with nary an homage to God.

Will you accept it as a blessing from God or will you acccept the mark of the beast?

Based on my response above, it sounds like I'm dancing with the Beast.

-ArtificialGrape

And to save Tilley some time, yes, I'm quite lovely in yellow.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000864821/polls_Beauty_and_the_Beast_beauty_and_the_beast_6524870_500_638_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

Roering
04-30-2012, 10:52
Saturday is usually my long run, followed by chores around the house, and often taking the family out for dinner with nary an homage to God.



Based on my response above, it sounds like I'm dancing with the Beast.

-ArtificialGrape

And to save Tilley some time, yes, I'm quite lovely in yellow.

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000864821/polls_Beauty_and_the_Beast_beauty_and_the_beast_6524870_500_638_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

What you need to know is that there are different degrees of Sabbath worship. SDA's are probably the most extreme. Their "prophetess" EG White had taught that anyone who worships on Sunday takes the mark of the beast (I would presume they believe that anyone who does not worship at all would do so as well). Then there are some Christians who quite simply prefer to worship on Saturday.

SDA's use it as a way to separate themselves from others.

Now whether Saturday is really the seventh day is also not absolutely certain. our calendar is different from the Jewish one and has gone through some revisions over the last few thousand years. So in the strictest sense SDA's are possibly not worshiping on the seventh day. However they stick to Saturday rather than the true Sabbath day.

Given that, they are actually worshiping the Roman god Saturn.

MadMonkey
04-30-2012, 11:09
Taliban doesn't take Sunday off. Sooooo I guess just about every person over here is going to hell, since we gotta work that day...

Brasso
04-30-2012, 11:25
Now whether Saturday is really the seventh day is also not absolutely certain.

Uh, yeah. It is pretty certain. The days of the week havn'et changed in recorded history.

Bren
04-30-2012, 11:30
So nobody thinks you go to hell if you break the 4th commandment throughout your life and never repent for doing so?

What's the point of commandments if there are no consequences for breaking them?

Is there a biblical basis for the 4th commandment being OK to break?

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 11:30
What you need to know is that there are different degrees of Sabbath worship. SDA's are probably the most extreme. Their "prophetess" EG White had taught that anyone who worships on Sunday takes the mark of the beast (I would presume they believe that anyone who does not worship at all would do so as well). Then there are some Christians who quite simply prefer to worship on Saturday.

SDA's use it as a way to separate themselves from others.

Now whether Saturday is really the seventh day is also not absolutely certain. our calendar is different from the Jewish one and has gone through some revisions over the last few thousand years. So in the strictest sense SDA's are possibly not worshiping on the seventh day. However they stick to Saturday rather than the true Sabbath day.

Given that, they are actually worshiping the Roman god Saturn.

What an amazing piece of fiction! :wow:

I also think it is strange that you can find the first day of the week, but are not sure about the seventh day.

When did the Jews all stop keeping the Sabbath that Jesus keeps?

Luke 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

What Ellen White said is that no one has taken the mark of the beast until it is universally enforced.


FROM HERE TO FOREVER, PAGE 278

"The Roman Church has not relinquished her claim to supremacy. When the world and the Protestant churches accept a sabbath of her creating, while they reject the Bible Sabbath, they virtually admit this assumption. In so doing they ignore the principle which separates them from Rome—that “the Bible, and the Bible only, is the religion of Protestants.” As the movement for Sunday enforcement gains favor, it will eventually bring the whole Protestant world under the banner of Rome.
Romanists declare that “the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.”7Mgr. Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today, p. 213. Enforcing a religious duty by secular power would form an image to the beast; hence the enforcement of Sundaykeeping in the United States would be an enforcement of the worship of the beast and his image.
Christians of past generations observed Sunday supposing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath, and there are now true Christians in every church who honestly believe that Sunday is of divine appointment. God accepts their sincerity and integrity. But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law and the world shall be enlightened concerning the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God to obey a precept of Rome will thereby honor popery above God. He is paying homage to Rome. He is worshiping the beast and his image. Men will thereby accept the sign of allegiance to Rome—“the mark of the beast.” It is not until the issue is thus plainly set before the people and they are brought to choose between the commandments of God and the commandments of men, that those who continue in transgression will receive “the mark of the beast.”"

Bren
04-30-2012, 11:36
Uh, yeah. It is pretty certain. The days of the week havn'et changed in recorded history.

Sure they have - days by number, names of the days, number of days in a week, which one christians call the sabbath, all have changed in recorded history. Why do you think it's "certain" they haven't changed if you don't even have the information you could find in a junior high school history book?

Bren
04-30-2012, 11:43
But when Sunday observance shall be enforced by law and the world shall be enlightened concerning the true Sabbath, then whoever shall transgress the command of God to obey a precept of Rome will thereby honor popery above God. He is paying homage to Rome. He is worshiping the beast and his image.

I agree with you that Jesus, if there was one, would have had his sabbath on saturday. But Sunday is enforced by law as a sabbath in many places, such as here in Kentucky, where certain businesses are required to close, alcohol can't be sold, etc., on Sunday and there is no exception allowed for a businessman who observes the sabbath on Saturday (so he has to close 2 days a week). Of course, Christian churches are the chief defenders of the Sunday "blue laws," but the christians/preachers, who are the only ones publicly opposed to changing them, always tell the press that it has nothing to do with religion.

Geko45
04-30-2012, 11:46
Does honoring God on the wrong day or working weekends destine one for hell

Only if you also buy beer on that day.

Brasso
04-30-2012, 11:54
Isa 56:1 So says Yahweh: Keep
justice and do righteousness, for my
Y’shua* is coming soon, and My
righteousness will be revealed.
Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who
does this, and the son of man who lays
hold on it; keeping the Sabbath, from
defiling it; and keeping his hand from
doing every evil.
Isa 56:3 And do not let the son of
the foreigner speak, he who joins
himself to Yahweh, saying, surely,
Yahweh separates me from His people;
and not do let the eunuch say, Behold,
I am a dried tree.
Isa 56:4 For so says Yahweh to the
eunuchs who keep (Aleph/Tav) My
Sabbaths and choose things I am
pleased with, and take hold of My
covenant:
Isa 56:5 I, even I will give to them
in My house and in My walls a hand
and a name better than sons and than
daughters; I will give them an
everlasting name which shall not be
cut off.
Isa 56:6 And the sons of the
foreigner, who join themselves to
Yahweh to serve Him, and to love the
name of Yahweh, to be His servants,
everyone who keeps from defiling the
Sabbath, and takes hold of My
covenant:
Isa 56:7 even them I will bring to
My holy mount and make them joyful
in My house of prayer. Their burnt
offerings and their sacrifices shall be
accepted on My altar, for My house
shall be called a house of prayer for all
the peoples,

Roering
04-30-2012, 12:16
What Ellen White said is that no one has taken the mark of the beast until it is universally enforced.



In 1898 Mrs. White wrote:

"John was called to behold a people distinct from those who worship the Beast and his image by keeping the first day of the week. The observance of this day is the mark of the Beast."

Ellen G. White, A Word to the Little Flock, p. 19 (1847)

Roering
04-30-2012, 12:24
Uh, yeah. It is pretty certain. The days of the week havn'et changed in recorded history.

You don't say? Tell me where the word "Saturday" appears in your scripture then?

I await your citation. I'll accept OT or NT.

:popcorn:

Brasso
04-30-2012, 15:15
You don't say? Tell me where the word "Saturday" appears in your scripture then?

I await your citation. I'll accept OT or NT.

You're an idiot. Are you so carnal? So opposed to anything God has said that you resort to this level of stupidity?

The 7th day is the Sabbath. You may know it as Saturday. In many cultures Saturday is known buy some form of the word Sabbath. Just because the name of the days change doesn't mean the order of the days have changed. Saturday has always been the 7th day of the week, whatever name it was called.

void *
04-30-2012, 16:30
The fact is that there is record of many persons violating the Sabbath who were not put to death. God made that judgment for one person. None of us humans are innocent.

Is there Bible verse where God explicitly judges someone who did not follow the sabbath to not be killed, and what are they? (Seriously curious here).

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 16:53
Is there Bible verse where God explicitly judges someone who did not follow the sabbath to not be killed, and what are they? (Seriously curious here).


Matthew 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungered, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, Behold, your disciples do that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath day.
12:3 But he said to them, Have you not read what David did, when he was an hungered, and they that were with him;
12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the show bread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
12:5 Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
12:6 But I say to you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
12:7 But if you had known what this means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, you would not have condemned the guiltless.
12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

void *
04-30-2012, 17:53
So where in the law did the priests on the sabbath day profane the sabbath and remain blameless? Is that a reference to some other Bible verse?

Or is this a "because the priests work on the sabbath doing the sabbath stuff in the temple, they could be viewed as profaning the sabbath, but they're actually blameless because it's what they're supposed to be doing" thing?

Schabesbert
04-30-2012, 18:00
So where in the law did the priests on the sabbath day profane the sabbath and remain blameless? Is that a reference to some other Bible verse?

Or is this a "because the priests work on the sabbath doing the sabbath stuff in the temple, they could be viewed as profaning the sabbath, but they're actually blameless because it's what they're supposed to be doing" thing?


Yep.
Sabbath sacrifices, circumcisions, etc.

Kingarthurhk
04-30-2012, 18:17
So where in the law did the priests on the sabbath day profane the sabbath and remain blameless? Is that a reference to some other Bible verse?

Or is this a "because the priests work on the sabbath doing the sabbath stuff in the temple, they could be viewed as profaning the sabbath, but they're actually blameless because it's what they're supposed to be doing" thing?

That's pretty much it. The priests when they ministered before God on the Sabbath they were considered blameless for doing so.

Kingarthurhk
04-30-2012, 18:18
Yep.
Sabbath sacrifices, circumcisions, etc.

The sacrificial system is not part of Exodus 20. Also, what's with the weiner obsession?

Brasso
04-30-2012, 18:35
The sacrificial system is not part of Exodus 20. Also, what's with the weiner obsession?

Yes it was. What wasn't part of it was the Levitical Priesthood.

Exo 20:24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
Exo 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.
Exo 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.

I keep trying to tell you guys (SDA's)...

Schabesbert
04-30-2012, 18:42
The sacrificial system is not part of Exodus 20. Also, what's with the weiner obsession?
I guess for some it's a bigger deal than for others ...

Gunhaver
04-30-2012, 21:17
And to save Tilley some time, yes, I'm quite lovely in yellow.



Artificial Lemon?

Gunhaver
04-30-2012, 21:19
Also, what's with the weiner obsession?

Asks the most homoerotic avatar on the forum...

WASR10
04-30-2012, 21:43
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape
Does honoring God on the wrong day or working weekends destine one for hell








My answer: the scriptures encourage believers to honor God at all times, in everything they do. Working weekends is not a sin.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

But, because believers can honor God at any time does not mean there is not a specific day set aside for worship. And because working on weekends is not a hell worthy transgression does not relieve a follower from the responsibility to worship.<o:p></o:p>

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 05:39
Asks the most homoerotic avatar on the forum...

Far from. Truth be told it is an image of Jesus holding up a man. With the problems I have head with my health, I invision the only reason I exist is because Jeus is proping me up.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 10:31
My answer: the scriptures encourage believers to honor God at all times, in everything they do. Working weekends is not a sin.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

But, because believers can honor God at any time does not mean there is not a specific day set aside for worship. And because working on weekends is not a hell worthy transgression does not relieve a follower from the responsibility to worship.<o:p></o:p>

I have always thought of the Sabbath as a privilege and blessing not necessarily a responsibility.

I always had to work hard. The one day that I can point to in the Bible is the one that God gave me off and promised to take care of me at least for that day, His Sabbath. It sure was nice of Him to invite me to enjoy His Sabbath with Him.

If I kept Sunday as a sabbath, I could not point it out in the Bible because there is not one text that says it is holy or I should not work on that day.

Brasso
05-01-2012, 14:08
There is no text anywhere in the Bible that speaks of a change in the Sabbath day. Ask a Christian why they keep Sunday and they will give you many reasons, allbeit, all devoid of Scriptural reasoning.

Yet, they will continue to keep it because they worship the created over the creator. They have not left Babylon.

Come out of her.

Roering
05-01-2012, 14:34
Asks the most homoerotic avatar on the forum...

You find King's avatar erotic?

/Aside from my gaydar going off, I think I just found your problem with Christianity Gunhaver.

WASR10
05-03-2012, 01:43
The New Testament makes it clear that we who are Christians are subjects of Christ. He is head over all things in the church. He gave us a new covenant that is superior in every way to the old covenant of Moses. The new law came into effect on Pentecost Day, the same day the church was established. From that point forward in the scriptures, Christians met to worship on the first day of the week.

Christians are not bound to observe the restrictions of the Law. If we wish to keep part of the Law, such as the Sabbath day, we are obligated to keep the entire law, and regress to the state which hindered Israel. If we keep the Law of Moses we are severed from Christ.

“And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?” – Galatians 5:3-7

Many important events happened for Christians on the first day. Christ arose from the dead on the first day of the week. The church began on the day of Pentecost, which always came on the first day of the week. On the day the church began the gospel was preached. Men heard, believed, repented, and were baptized for the remission of their sins. They were added by the Lord to His church. This happened on the first day of the week. The Holy Spirit came upon the apostles on that same day of Pentecost, on the first day. The church gathered to remember Jesus Christ by partaking of the Lord’s Supper on the first day. The church gave of their means on the first day of the week.


Jesus told His disciples to teach others “to observe all things that I have commanded you”. We can see from the practices of the church that the apostles taught them to observe the first day.

Christians meet for worship on the first day of the week instead of the seventh day of the week. The Law of Moses, which included the commandment to keep the Sabbath, was given to the nation of Israel only. This Old Covenant ended when Christ died on the cross. The New Covenant, which began at Pentecost, is for all mankind today.

Brasso
05-03-2012, 06:58
You do realize that God already had a day set aside to celebrate the ascension don't you? It's called First Fruits (Bikkurim). It has nothing to do with the Sabbath. Pentacost (Shavuot) itself is one of the Biblical Feasts.


Everything you just posted is irellevent and wrong.

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 10:36
Christians are not bound to observe the restrictions of the Law. If we wish to keep part of the Law, such as the Sabbath day, we are obligated to keep the entire law, and regress to the state which hindered Israel. If we keep the Law of Moses we are severed from Christ.

“And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?” – Galatians 5:3-7



It is sad how many Christians think that if they are honest and refrain from murder then they need to get circumcised and are severed from Christ.

What a strong delusion it is that does away with morality along with the ceremonial law. What is so terrible about the day that God Himself made holy? Why do people want to make their own holy day?

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Jesus taught about the tendency of men to circumvent the Commandments of God.

Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

Geko45
05-03-2012, 10:48
Y'all do realize that due to leap year calibrations to keep the annual calendar in sync with the Earth's orbit around the Sun that the seventh day of the week only comes into sync with the actual sabbath once every seventh leap year cycle (or for four years out of every 28), right?

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 10:51
Y'all do realize that due to leap year calibrations to keep the annual calendar in sync with the Earth's orbit around the Sun that the seventh day of the week only comes into sync with the actual sabbath once every seventh leap year cycle (or for four years out of every 28), right?

The seventh day has nothing to do with leap year.

Schabesbert
05-03-2012, 11:13
You do realize that God already had a day set aside to celebrate the ascension don't you? It's called First Fruits (Bikkurim).
Sorry, no. As I've shown you before, this feast is not connected with the ascension. The feast is on Nisan 16, and the ascension happened 40 days later.

I'm really quite surprised, though, that you'd advocate a feast that clearly has associations with paganism. :cool:

Of course I'm kidding, but it does have as much to do with pagan feasts as do Easter and Christmas.


Everything you just posted is irellevent and wrong.
By your say-so?
:tongueout:

Schabesbert
05-03-2012, 11:17
It is sad how many Christians think that if they are honest and refrain from murder then they need to get circumcised and are severed from Christ.
Uhhh, sorry, but nobody seems to be saying that.


What a strong delusion it is that does away with morality along with the ceremonial law.
Uhhh, sorry, but nobody seems to be saying that.

Are you getting confused, Vic?

Geko45
05-03-2012, 12:29
The seventh day has nothing to do with leap year.

Yeah, I guess I was smoking something on that one. Leap year wouldn't affect day of the week.

Carry on!

:embarassed:

Brasso
05-03-2012, 12:50
Sorry, no. As I've shown you before, this feast is not connected with the ascension. The feast is on Nisan 16, and the ascension happened 40 days later.

I'm really quite surprised, though, that you'd advocate a feast that clearly has associations with paganism.

Of course I'm kidding, but it does have as much to do with pagan feasts as do Easter and Christmas.


Uh. Messiah was the wave sheath. The first fruits of those that sleep. If you want to believe He remained unclean and didn't ascend for 40 days that's your business. I will continue to believe the Bible.

Saying that First Fruits, a day that YHWH Himself instituted, is pagan, is quite blasphemous, but not surprising. Might as well call Passover pagan too. Passover, Unvleavened Bread, and First Fruits all make up the Passover holiday. First Fruits also begins the Omer Count to Pentacost.


The idea that the church started at Pentacose is also laughable and ignorant.

1 Corinthians 10
King James Version (KJV)

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Schabesbert
05-03-2012, 13:53
Uh. Messiah was the wave sheath. The first fruits of those that sleep. If you want to believe He remained unclean and didn't ascend for 40 days that's your business. I will continue to believe the Bible.
You must not be able to understand the Bible, since IT says that He ascended after 40 days:

Ac 1:1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach,
2 until the day when he was taken up [NOTE: THE day, singular, meaning that He was taken up ONE TIME], after he had given commandment through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen.
3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.
4 And while staying with them he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me,
5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"
7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.
8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the end of the earth."
9 And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight.

Roering
05-03-2012, 17:30
Deleted....Pic wouldn't post.

Brasso
05-03-2012, 18:03
Yeah Bert. That makes so much sense. He wouldn't let Mary touch Him, but He walked around for 40 days interacting, eating, with everyone else?

God Himself couldn't convince you the Pope is wrong, but everyone else....

juggy4711
05-03-2012, 21:45
Yeah, I guess I was smoking something on that one. Leap year wouldn't affect day of the week.

Carry on!

:embarassed:

No worries Geko. I had to think about that for a minute also.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 06:52
Yeah Bert. That makes so much sense. He wouldn't let Mary touch Him, but He walked around for 40 days interacting, eating, with everyone else?
Your extrapolation of your poor misinterpretation of one cryptic phrase is eisegesis that contradicts what Luke says plainly in the book of Acts.

It's no wonder you have such a poor understanding of scriptures.

God Himself couldn't convince you the Pope is wrong, but everyone else....
It's God that protects His Church from teaching wrongly (under certain conditions). Why do you insist that God contradict Himself?

Brasso
05-04-2012, 08:54
It's God that protects His Church from teaching wrongly (under certain conditions). Why do you insist that God contradict Himself?


It's just not possible that He ascended on First Fruits and appeared to the Apostles over a 40 day period; then ascending for a final time is it?

Not if the Church doesn't say so. Doesn't matter that in other places it says He did ascend. Doesn't matter that the entire Feast is about Him. Doesn't matter that He is referred to as the First Fruits. None of this matters because the RCC hasn't said it.

You make me laugh. You make me cry. You make me wonder if some of us didn't really come from monkeys.

ViennaGambit
05-04-2012, 09:11
I'm Jewish and reject the premise of Hell.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 09:17
It's just not possible that He ascended on First Fruits and appeared to the Apostles over a 40 day period; then ascending for a final time is it?
So, if it's possible, then it must've happened, is that your argument?

So, then we're waiting for His THIRD coming? Not His second?

Not if the Church doesn't say so. Doesn't matter that in other places it says He did ascend.
What other places?

Doesn't matter that the entire Feast is about Him. Doesn't matter that He is referred to as the First Fruits. None of this matters because the RCC hasn't said it.
He's the First Fruits because He was RESURRECTED. You know, the thing that the Bible DOES SAY, rather than something you just imagine happened because it's "possible?"


1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

I know that you have little respect for St. Paul's writings, since he rails against you Judaisers. But it IS scripture.

You make me laugh. You make me cry.
I know, I know. You suffer greatly from your cognitive dissonance, having been shown over and over and over how your theology is mistaken.

You make me wonder if some of us didn't really come from monkeys.
Or, rather, if monkeys don't have a Glock Talk account. :tongueout:

Woofie
05-04-2012, 10:32
Your choice, but like Gunhaver, I'm thinking unpleasant.

I'm thinking hell is sitting in the Disney Land parking lot without the money to pay for admission.

Or being condemned to watch Puss n Boots for eternity-- the low budget William Shatner version.

Brasso
05-04-2012, 14:20
John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 14:36
John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
... which He did. And Acts 1:3-9 tells us WHEN He did so.
You see, you have to believe ALL of scripture. Not just extrapolate from a little piece of it.

Vic Hays
05-04-2012, 14:54
... which He did. And Acts 1:3-9 tells us WHEN He did so.
You see, you have to believe ALL of scripture. Not just extrapolate from a little piece of it.

Thomas touched Jesus after He was resurrected. Jesus must have ascended and returned.

John 20:27 Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 15:01
John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
This part from post 72 above:
He's the First Fruits because He was RESURRECTED. You know, the thing that the Bible DOES SAY, rather than something you just imagine happened because it's "possible?"


1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

I know that you have little respect for St. Paul's writings, since he rails against you Judaisers. But it IS scripture.
... is of course being ignored by Brasso since it shows him to be wrong in yet another matter. He'll ignore it until some time passes, and then present his argment as if it had never been refuted. He does this at least a couple of times per thread it seems.

He did something like this in the other thread, where he makes the outright false claim that there was no historical evidence of Sunday worship in the early Church:
Let's see,

There is no Biblical record of a Sunday Sabbath.
There is no historical record of a Sunday Sabbath. (at least not till later on)

That is absolutely untrue. In fact, there are historical records that are contemporaneous with the writing of the NT itself (i.e. the Didache, and Ignatius of Antioch's Letter to the Magnesians).

You keep denying history and facts.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 15:08
Thomas touched Jesus after He was resurrected. Jesus must have ascended and returned.

John 20:27 Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
That's one of the reasons that your dogged reliance on the KJV does you such a disservice.

The word used for John 20:17 is best translated "hold on to" or "cling to" rather than "touch":
haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee
properly, to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):--touch.

That is the reason that most MODERN translations, and most ancient commentators, translated it differently:

Joh 20:17 (RSV) Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Joh 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Joh 20:17 (NIV) Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (NASB) Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (MNT) "Do not cling to me," said Jesus, "for I am not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, "`I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and [to] My God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (TCNT) "Do not hold me," Jesus said; "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my Brothers, and tell them that I am ascending to him who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God."
Joh 20:17 (WNT) "Do not cling to me," said Jesus, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But take this message to my brethren: `I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (NAS95) Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (NRSV) Jesus said to her, "Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Brasso
05-04-2012, 15:36
... is of course being ignored by Brasso since it shows him to be wrong in yet another matter. He'll ignore it until some time passes, and then present his argment as if it had never been refuted. He does this at least a couple of times per thread it seems.

Because you haven't proved anything. I ignore you.

There is no biblical record of a Sunday Sabbath. The sun worshippers were keeping a Sunday Sabbath. The same one Constantine enforced and eventually made law in the Roman Church because people were still keeping the 7th Day Sabbath.

I don't know why I am even arguing this with you. No one with any history at all believes this. You remind me of Baghdad Bob. "There are no U.S. troops in Baghdad", as an M1 Abrams rolls by behind him.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 16:26
Because you haven't proved anything. I ignore you.
You ignore many, many facts that prove you wrong.

Then you repeat the same blabber in a different way, like you do here.

I don't know why I am even arguing this with you.
Me neither. I'm starting to suppose you're a masochist.

No one with any history at all believes this.
What does this even mean?

You remind me of Baghdad Bob. "There are no U.S. troops in Baghdad", as an M1 Abrams rolls by behind him.
You remind me of politicians who accuse others of doing exactly what they do in order to deflect from their own shortcomings (like O complaining about rampant spending).

You always resort to simple insults in lieu of facts.

Now tell me again how Jesus' Ascension is celebrated on the feast of first fruits, when St. Paul says that Jesus, because of His RESURRECTION, is the first fruits.

Tell me how the Church was able to go back in the past and add quotes to St. Ignatius of Antioch and the Didache.

Kingarthurhk
05-04-2012, 17:06
You ignore many, many facts that prove you wrong.

Then you repeat the same blabber in a different way, like you do here.


Me neither. I'm starting to suppose you're a masochist.


What does this even mean?


You remind me of politicians who accuse others of doing exactly what they do in order to deflect from their own shortcomings (like O complaining about rampant spending).

You always resort to simple insults in lieu of facts.

Now tell me again how Jesus' Ascension is celebrated on the feast of first fruits, when St. Paul says that Jesus, because of His RESURRECTION, is the first fruits.

Tell me how the Church was able to go back in the past and add quotes to St. Ignatius of Antioch and the Didache.

Your spirit is showing again. I don't think you have cause to call him on the bolded issue:

Luke 6:41-42, "<sup class="versenum">41 </sup>“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? <sup class="versenum">42 </sup>How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Jesus is the First Fruits from the dead to incorruptable immortality:

1 Corinthians 15:20-28, "<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28739AI))'></sup> the firstfruits <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28739AJ))'></sup> of those who have fallen asleep. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28739AK))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>For since death came through a man, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28740AL))'></sup> the resurrection of the dead <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28740AM))'></sup> comes also through a man. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28741AN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28742AO))'></sup> then, when he comes, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28742AP))'></sup> those who belong to him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28742AQ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28743AR))'></sup> to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28743AS))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>For he must reign <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28744AT))'></sup> until he has put all his enemies under his feet. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28744AU))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>The last enemy to be destroyed is death. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28745AV))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>For he “has put everything under his feet.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28746c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+15&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28746c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28746AW))'></sup> Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28746AX))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28747AY))'></sup> so that God may be all in all."

Even those who were resurrected in both the Old and New Testament have long since died, except one, Jesus Christ. He is the First Fruit of immortal life.

This was the point of the ceremonial Feast of the First Fruits found in Leviticus 23: 2-14, "<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>The Lord said to Moses, <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When you enter the land I am going to give you <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3413N))'></sup> and you reap its harvest, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3413O))'></sup> bring to the priest a sheaf <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3413P))'></sup> of the first grain you harvest. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3413Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>He is to wave the sheaf before the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3414R))'></sup> so it will be accepted <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3414S))'></sup> on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the Lord a lamb a year old <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3415T))'></sup> without defect, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3415U))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>together with its grain offering <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3416V))'></sup> of two-tenths of an ephah<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-3416a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-3416a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3416W))'></sup> of the finest flour mixed with olive oil—a food offering presented to the Lord, a pleasing aroma—and its drink offering <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3416X))'></sup> of a quarter of a hin<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-3416b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-3416b)]</sup> of wine. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3416Y))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3417Z))'></sup> until the very day you bring this offering to your God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3417AA))'></sup> This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3417AB))'></sup> wherever you live."

So we see clearly symbols of the crucifiction, the rest in the tomb on the Sabbath, and rising back to work on the first day of the week to continue work.

Therefore, Jesus Christ is the First Fruit of resurrection to immortal and incoruptable. If we choose to follow Him, this is also our reward.

Jesus rose after spending the Sabbath in the tomb, He even kept it in His death.

Schabesbert
05-04-2012, 17:17
Your spirit is showing again. I don't think you have cause to call him on the bolded issue:

Luke 6:41-42, "<sup class="versenum">41 </sup>“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? <sup class="versenum">42 </sup>How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
I really enjoy irony. Maybe THAT is the reason you have a hard time with reading comprehension? Can't see around the plank?


Jesus is the First Fruits from the dead to incorruptable immortality:
Thanks. That's the same text that I've posted (twice?) here on this very thread. I guess you didn't see that, either, because of the plank.

Even those who were resurrected in both the Old and New Testament have long since died, except one, Jesus Christ. He is the First Fruit of immortal life.
Yes.
So, other than not understanding that this agrees with what I've written, do you have a point?

Therefore, Jesus Christ is the First Fruit of resurrection
Yep. Just as I've been saying all along.

Careful, now, Brasso's head is going to explode.

Kingarthurhk
05-04-2012, 17:35
I really enjoy irony. Maybe THAT is the reason you have a hard time with reading comprehension? Can't see around the plank?



Thanks. That's the same text that I've posted (twice?) here on this very thread. I guess you didn't see that, either, because of the plank.


Yes.
So, other than not understanding that this agrees with what I've written, do you have a point?


Yep. Just as I've been saying all along.

Careful, now, Brasso's head is going to explode.

Ephesians 4:29-32, "<sup class="versenum">29 </sup>Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29302BJ))'></sup> but only what is helpful for building others up <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29302BK))'></sup> according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29303BL))'></sup> with whom you were sealed <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29303BM))'></sup> for the day of redemption. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29303BN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>Get rid of <sup class="crossreference" value='(BO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29304BO))'></sup> all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29304BP))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>Be kind and compassionate to one another, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29305BQ))'></sup> forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."

Vic Hays
05-04-2012, 18:21
That's one of the reasons that your dogged reliance on the KJV does you such a disservice.

The word used for John 20:17 is best translated "hold on to" or "cling to" rather than "touch":
haptomai, hap'-tom-ahee
properly, to attach oneself to, i.e. to touch (in many implied relations):--touch.

That is the reason that most MODERN translations, and most ancient commentators, translated it differently:

Joh 20:17 (RSV) Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, ]I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Joh 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Joh 20:17 (NIV) Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Joh 20:17 (NASB) Jesus *said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"

I fixed some of the scripture quotes for you to show that the context is that Jesus was ascending. He would not have had to tell her to tell the others if He was sticking around for 40 days.
Those really are good quotes.

Brasso
05-04-2012, 18:32
Yep. Just as I've been saying all along.

Careful, now, Brasso's head is going to explode.

It would help if you knew what the Feast was all about. They take the "NEW" grain and wave it as an offering to YHWH. It's the resurrection and the "offering" that makes the Bikkurim or First Fruit. The First Fruit always belongs to YHWH.

But hey, don't let the spirit of the holiday interfere with your religion. It's time to stop suckling at the Pope's teet and start eating meat.

The First Fruits and the First Born ALL belong to God. This is why firstborn sons had to be brought to the priests to be "deferred" from the priesthood, since Aaron and Levi took over those duties. Messiah is not only the First Fruits of the dead, He is the First Born of the Father too. Additionally, He is the New Covenant and Melchizadekkian High Priest. There is no one to bring Him to. He must ascend to the Father as the Wave Sheath offering in order to be our High Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary. If He didn't, then you have no High Priest, no covenant, and no redemption. Just be glad there wasn't a sun worshipping Pope around to tell Him He needs to hang around here instead of go to heaven.

Schabesbert
05-06-2012, 09:42
Ephesians 4:29-32, "<sup class="versenum">29 </sup>Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29302BJ))'></sup> but only what is helpful for building others up <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29302BK))'></sup> according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29303BL))'></sup> with whom you were sealed <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29303BM))'></sup> for the day of redemption. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29303BN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>Get rid of <sup class="crossreference" value='(BO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29304BO))'></sup> all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29304BP))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>Be kind and compassionate to one another, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29305BQ))'></sup> forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you."
IF ONLY you could get Kingarthurhk to follow this advice!!

Schabesbert
05-06-2012, 09:43
I fixed some of the scripture quotes for you to show that the context is that Jesus was ascending. He would not have had to tell her to tell the others if He was sticking around for 40 days.
Those really are good quotes.
None say that He's doing so immediately.
Or presently.

Schabesbert
05-06-2012, 09:46
It would help if you knew what the Feast was all about. They take the "NEW" grain and wave it as an offering to YHWH. It's the resurrection and the "offering" that makes the Bikkurim or First Fruit. The First Fruit always belongs to YHWH.
So?

Is this where you offer irrelevant facts to deflect from the fact that your theology is totally, and dangerously, wrong?

But hey, don't let the spirit of the holiday interfere with your religion. It's time to stop suckling at the Pope's teet and start eating meat.
Oh, and your cognitive dissonance seems to cause you to be dishonest and hateful as well.

So, to recap: include irrelevant facts, and gratuitously insult.
Hmmmm .... apparently truth and love aren't in your repertoire.

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 10:27
So?

Is this where you offer irrelevant facts to deflect from the fact that your theology is totally, and dangerously, wrong?


Oh, and your cognitive dissonance seems to cause you to be dishonest and hateful as well.

So, to recap: include irrelevant facts, and gratuitously insult.
Hmmmm .... apparently truth and love aren't in your repertoire.

Your hypocrisy knows no bounds...

Schabesbert
05-06-2012, 15:26
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds...
This, from the guy who posts an occasional message on love but who far more often posts vile, hate-filled and false messages. :rofl:

Thanks. I love irony.

Kingarthurhk
05-06-2012, 17:02
This, from the guy who posts an occasional message on love but who far more often posts vile, hate-filled and false messages. :rofl:

Thanks. I love irony.

You consider scripture to be hateful messages?

Brasso
05-06-2012, 17:07
So, to recap: include irrelevant facts, and gratuitously insult.
Hmmmm .... apparently truth and love aren't in your repertoire.

Like I said. Don't let the facts get in the way of your religion Bert.

Schabesbert
05-07-2012, 06:57
You consider scripture to be hateful messages?
Nope. But your postings are generally accompanied by hateful messages. Or are you denying that obvious fact now, also?

Vic Hays
05-07-2012, 11:25
None say that He's doing so immediately.
Or presently.

You really seem to be rather intelligent. You are, however, bound to disagree with anything that is not held as truth by your sect even if it is plainly taught by the Bible.

I understand that you believe the church is the standard of truth.
Some of us believe the Bible is the standard of truth. Therefore, there can be no agreement because we are using different standards.

This whole disagreement on the Sabbath question is an example. The letter written by JP II reflects the changes of the Sabbath from Roman Catholic perspective. When I quoted from JP II's writings you had to claim I was distorting it. The fact is that Sunday sacredness is the result of tradition not any decree by Paul or any of the other Apostles.

scccdoc
05-07-2012, 11:36
Given that there's no shortage of passionate Sabbath threads, what is one more...

It seems that even Vic has stopped short of answering "yes", so I would like to know who believes that those who would otherwise be destined for heaven, but are mistakenly worshipping on the wrong day of the week (or perhaps the single mom that works weekends at Wal-Mart) are destined for hell.

-ArtificialGrape

I try to worship daily, problem solved

Schabesbert
05-07-2012, 11:47
You really seem to be rather intelligent. You are, however, bound to disagree with anything that is not held as truth by your sect even if it is plainly taught by the Bible.

I understand that you believe the church is the standard of truth.
Some of us believe the Bible is the standard of truth. Therefore, there can be no agreement because we are using different standards.
However, we should be able to agree that your position is logically contradictory. The Bible says that the Church is the "Pillar and Bulwark of the truth." So, seeing as how you claim to believe the Bible, you should also believe what it says.

This whole disagreement on the Sabbath question is an example. The letter written by JP II reflects the changes of the Sabbath from Roman Catholic perspective. When I quoted from JP II's writings you had to claim I was distorting it.
No, it wasn't the quotes that I had issue with, but rather your misinterpretation of them. As I explained. :upeyes:

Brasso
05-07-2012, 11:50
Nope. But your postings are generally accompanied by hateful messages. Or are you denying that obvious fact now, also?


Yes. My apologies. I will try to rise above your snide remarks from now on.

Kingarthurhk
05-07-2012, 15:54
Nope. But your postings are generally accompanied by hateful messages. Or are you denying that obvious fact now, also?

I do not. I simply provide the truth.

Though, I am instructed to rejoice because of you:

Matthew 5:11-12, "<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>“Blessed are you when people insult you, <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23246M))'></sup> persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23246N))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Rejoice and be glad, <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23247O))'></sup> because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

Kingarthurhk
05-07-2012, 15:58
However, we should be able to agree that your position is logically contradictory. The Bible says that the Church is the "Pillar and Bulwark of the truth." So, seeing as how you claim to believe the Bible, you should also believe what it says.

We do. John 14:6-7, "<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Jesus answered, “I am <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675H))'></sup> the way <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675I))'></sup> and the truth <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675J))'></sup> and the life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675K))'></sup> No one comes to the Father except through me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675L))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>If you really know me, you will know<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26676b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b)]</sup> my Father as well. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26676M))'></sup> From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Jesus said HE was the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE. He didn't say, some specific church or tradition was the way the truth and the life.

Vic Hays
05-07-2012, 16:24
However, we should be able to agree that your position is logically contradictory. The Bible says that the Church is the "Pillar and Bulwark of the truth." So, seeing as how you claim to believe the Bible, you should also believe what it says.


My position would be contradictory if the Bible text you quoted said something like "the church is the standard of truth" or some such. It obviously doesn't say that.

The Word of God is Truth according to Jesus. Since your sect has erred many times it cannot be trusted. I know you have a doctrine that says the RCC cannot err, but a false claim is just that, a bogus claim.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Schabesbert
05-07-2012, 16:28
We do. John 14:6-7, "<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Jesus answered, “I am <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675H))'></sup> the way <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675I))'></sup> and the truth <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675J))'></sup> and the life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675K))'></sup> No one comes to the Father except through me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26675L))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>If you really know me, you will know<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26676b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b)]</sup> my Father as well. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26676M))'></sup> From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

Jesus said HE was the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE.
Exactly. That's why the Church is NOT the source of Truth; merely the institutiton that upholds and protects the Truth.


He didn't say, some specific church or tradition was the way the truth and the life.
Nope. But SCRIPTURE says that the Church (again, singular in the Greek) is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth.

So, you're left with the choice of believing scripture and thus following the Church, or not following the Church and thus being in opposition to scripture as well. You CAN'T logically hold to scripture while opposing the Church.

Kingarthurhk
05-07-2012, 16:50
Exactly. That's why the Church is NOT the source of Truth; merely the institutiton that upholds and protects the Truth.



Nope. But SCRIPTURE says that the Church (again, singular in the Greek) is the pillar and bulwark of the Truth.

So, you're left with the choice of believing scripture and thus following the Church, or not following the Church and thus being in opposition to scripture as well. You CAN'T logically hold to scripture while opposing the Church.

What scripture? I keep providing scripture after scripture, but I don't see any evidence backing up your statements except from Cathecisms and Catholic Encyclopedias.

Brasso
05-07-2012, 17:02
I simply reject the notion that the RCC is the Church. I see no proof of that whatsoever.

Kingarthurhk
05-07-2012, 17:11
I simply reject the notion that the RCC is the Church. I see no proof of that whatsoever.

I also reject it as THE Church. It is certainly a church.

Brasso
05-08-2012, 06:18
I wouldn't even say that.

There may be members of the Church in the RCC. Paul defined the Church as being in the desert under Moses as well. Messiah came to rebuld the Tabernacle of David. Not start a new religion to lord over the world.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 08:12
What scripture? I keep providing scripture after scripture,
Yeah, your ability to cut and past irrelevant portions is truly legendary.

but I don't see any evidence backing up your statements except from Cathecisms and Catholic Encyclopedias.
You don't see it because you actively avoid looking at the Truth.

OK, here is the scripture to which I was referring. I would have thought that you'd have the ability to look it up, even if you hadn't remembered it:

1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 08:16
I also reject it as THE Church. It is certainly a church.
Think about it.

There was one unified Church built by Christ ("... I will build MY Church and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." - Jesus [Matt 16:18])

This Church is the "pillar and bulwark" (teacher and defender) of the Truth.

The day after St. Paul wrote that to Timothy, which Church was the pillar and bulwark? The week after? The month after? The year after? The decade after? The century after? The millenium after?

When do you claim Christ's promise was broken?

Vic Hays
05-08-2012, 14:01
Think about it.

There was one unified Church built by Christ ("... I will build MY Church and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." - Jesus [Matt 16:18])

This Church is the "pillar and bulwark" (teacher and defender) of the Truth.

The day after St. Paul wrote that to Timothy, which Church was the pillar and bulwark? The week after? The month after? The year after? The decade after? The century after? The millenium after?

When do you claim Christ's promise was broken?

Christ's promises are never broken. When Jesus made that promise he said the word "prevail". This word means there will be a struggle. The Church of Jesus will come out victorious.

Jesus did not say that there would be a large powerful Roman sect that would prevail, however, the prophets attest to the fact that such a large powerful sect would hold sway for quite some time.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it to the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The fourth kingdom is Rome. The ten kings are the kings of the divisions of the Roman Empire.

The saints were under the control of the little horn which represents an arrogant religious power that thinks it can change the laws of God and the times such as the Seventh-day Sabbath.

The judgment took away its great power and will consume it to the end according to Daniel.

Yes, the gates of hell will not prevail against God's Church.

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 14:52
Yeah, your ability to cut and past irrelevant portions is truly legendary.


You don't see it because you actively avoid looking at the Truth.

OK, here is the scripture to which I was referring. I would have thought that you'd have the ability to look it up, even if you hadn't remembered it:

1Ti 3:14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that,
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.


Revelation 1:1-8, "The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30699A))'></sup> him to show his servants what must soon take place. <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30699B))'></sup> He made it known by sending his angel <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30699C))'></sup> to his servant John, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30699D))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30700E))'></sup> and the testimony of Jesus Christ. <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30700F))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30701G))'></sup> because the time is near. <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30701H))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>John,

To the seven churches <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30702I))'></sup> in the province of Asia:
Grace and peace to you <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30702J))'></sup> from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30702K))'></sup> and from the seven spirits<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30702a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30702a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30702L))'></sup> before his throne, <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30703M))'></sup> the firstborn from the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30703N))'></sup> and the ruler of the kings of the earth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30703O))'></sup>
To him who loves us <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30703P))'></sup> and has freed us from our sins by his blood, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30703Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>and has made us to be a kingdom and priests <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30704R))'></sup> to serve his God and Father <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30704S))'></sup> —to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30704T))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30705b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30705U))'></sup>
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30705V))'></sup>
and all peoples on earth “will mourn <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30705W))'></sup> because of him.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30705c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30705c)]</sup>
So shall it be! Amen.


<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30706X))'></sup>says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30706Y))'></sup> the Almighty.”

So, which of the seven churches do you purport to be?

Revelation 1:9-11, "I, John, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30707AA))'></sup> your brother and companion in the suffering <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30707AB))'></sup> and kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30707AC))'></sup> and patient endurance <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30707AD))'></sup> that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30707AE))'></sup> and the testimony of Jesus. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30707AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>On the Lord’s Day <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30708AG))'></sup> I was in the Spirit, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30708AH))'></sup> and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30708AI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>which said: “Write on a scroll what you see <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AJ))'></sup> and send it to the seven churches: <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AK))'></sup> to Ephesus, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AL))'></sup> Smyrna, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AM))'></sup> Pergamum, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AN))'></sup> Thyatira, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AO))'></sup> Sardis, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AP))'></sup> Philadelphia <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30709AQ))'></sup> and Laodicea.”

Again, which of these churches is yours?

Revelation 1:12-19, " I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30710AS))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>and among the lampstands <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30711AT))'></sup> was someone like a son of man,<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30711d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30711d)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30711AU))'></sup> dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30711AV))'></sup> and with a golden sash around his chest. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30711AW))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30712AX))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30713AY))'></sup> and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30713AZ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>In his right hand he held seven stars, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30714BA))'></sup> and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30714BB))'></sup> His face was like the sun <sup class="crossreference" value='(BC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30714BC))'></sup> shining in all its brilliance.
<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>[B]When I saw him, I fell at his feet <sup class="crossreference" value='(BD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30715BD))'></sup> as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me <sup class="crossreference" value='(BE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30715BE))'></sup> and said: “Do not be afraid. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30715BF))'></sup> I am the First and the Last. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30715BG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>I am the Living One; I was dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30716BH))'></sup> and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! <sup class="crossreference" value='(BI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30716BI))'></sup> And I hold the keys of death and Hades. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30716BJ))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>“Write, therefore, what you have seen, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30717BK))'></sup> what is now and what will take place later. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30718BL))'></sup> and of the seven golden lampstands <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30718BM))'></sup> is this: The seven stars are the angels<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30718e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30718e)]</sup> of the seven churches, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30718BN))'></sup> and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. "

Notice who is holding the keys. It's Jesus, not Peter. Also, again, which of these seven churches is yours?

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 15:02
Christ's promises are never broken. When Jesus made that promise he said the word "prevail". This word means there will be a struggle. The Church of Jesus will come out victorious.
Fine, but that's not the point.
Jesus built His Church. He said He would.
This Church would, by the time of St. Paul, be called the "pillar and bulwark of the Truth."


The saints were under the control of the little horn which represents an arrogant religious power that thinks it can change the laws of God and the times such as the Seventh-day Sabbath.
You've got to seriously quit trying to abbreviate history. Even IF your interpretation was correct (it is not -- the SDA has not had a good record with its interpretation of apocalyptic predictions), you're left with an inexplicable conundrum:

For CENTURIES the Church was persecuted by Rome.

During those very same centuries, the Church espoused and taught things that are clearly Catholic. And clearly non-SDA.

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 15:16
Fine, but that's not the point.
Jesus built His Church. He said He would.
This Church would, by the time of St. Paul, be called the "pillar and bulwark of the Truth."

Which of the seven would that be?


You've got to seriously quit trying to abbreviate history. Even IF your interpretation was correct (it is not -- the SDA has not had a good record with its interpretation of apocalyptic predictions), you're left with an inexplicable conundrum:

Please provide something other than ad hominem to substantiate that statement.


For CENTURIES the Church was persecuted by Rome.

During those very same centuries, the Church espoused and taught things that are clearly Catholic. And clearly non-SDA.

Please substantiate your comment. Now, provided there were no SDA's then. Also, you are forgetting our good friends the very martyred Albagensians. Also, please help me understand why a church persecuted by Rome would call itself the Roman Catholic Church, and then in turn persecute so many various groups that believe in Christ?

Could it be:

Daniel 7:15-28, "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21949AK))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.
“So he told me and gave me the interpretation <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21950AL))'></sup> of these things: <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>But the holy people <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21952AM))'></sup> of the Most High will receive the kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21952AN))'></sup> and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’ <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21952AO))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>“Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>I also wanted to know about the ten horns <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21954AP))'></sup> on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21954AQ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21955AR))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21956AS))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">23 </sup>“He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21957AT))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>The ten horns <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21958AU))'></sup> are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>He will speak against the Most High <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21959AV))'></sup> and oppress his holy people <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21959AW))'></sup> and try to change the set times <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21959AX))'></sup> and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21959b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel+7&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21959b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21959AY))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">26 </sup>“‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21960AZ))'></sup> forever. <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21961BA))'></sup> under heaven will be handed over to the holy people <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21961BB))'></sup> of the Most High. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21961BC))'></sup> His kingdom will be an everlasting <sup class="crossreference" value='(BD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21961BD))'></sup> kingdom, and all rulers will worship <sup class="crossreference" value='(BE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21961BE))'></sup> and obey him.’

<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>“This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21962BF))'></sup> by my thoughts, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21962BG))'></sup> and my face turned pale, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21962BH))'></sup> but I kept the matter to myself.”

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 15:16
Notice who is holding the keys. It's Jesus, not Peter.
Oh, great. Someone else who's ignorant of how authority is delegated. :upeyes:

You'd have Jesus lying when He promised to give St. Peter the keys. I have a problem with that.

If you were to actually understand the Bible, perhaps you'd be able to tell me: during the reign of king Hezekiah, who had the keys to the house of David?

They were taken from Shebna and given to Eliakim.

Hmmm ... didn't Hezekiah have the keys?

Of course he did. He was the king.

But it says that Shebna was "over the household" in Isaiah 22:15. Does that mean, in your ever-so confused mind, that Shebna out-ranked Hezekiah?

Of course not. Nor does it mean that St. Peter out-ranks Jesus. However, Jesus GAVE St. Peter the keys. At least WE believe that He did; scripture says so.

Instead, you & those like you want to pit one verse of scripture against another.




Also, again, which of these seven churches is yours?
ALL of 'em. Those were seven component churches under the umbrella of the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Just like today the Church claims that it is ONE. And yet, in my diocese alone there are about 68 "churches."

It really is frustrating to have to explain something that is obvious to most 7-year olds.

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 15:30
Oh, great. Someone else who's ignorant of how authority is delegated. :upeyes:

You'd have Jesus lying when He promised to give St. Peter the keys. I have a problem with that.


If you were to actually understand the Bible, perhaps you'd be able to tell me: during the reign of king Hezekiah, who had the keys to the house of David?

They were taken from Shebna and given to Eliakim.

Hmmm ... didn't Hezekiah have the keys?

Of course he did. He was the king.

But it says that Shebna was "over the household" in Isaiah 22:15. Does that mean, in your ever-so confused mind, that Shebna out-ranked Hezekiah?

Of course not. Nor does it mean that St. Peter out-ranks Jesus. However, Jesus GAVE St. Peter the keys. At least WE believe that He did; scripture says so.

Instead, you & those like you want to pit one verse of scripture against another.

ALL of 'em. Those were seven component churches under the umbrella of the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH.

Just like today the Church claims that it is ONE. And yet, in my diocese alone there are about 68 "churches."

It really is frustrating to have to explain something that is obvious to most 7-year olds.

Well, let's deal with Matthew 16, shall we?


In these verses, Christ stated, “And I say unto you, that you are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

In order to understand the meaning here, we must start reading from Matt. 16:13 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)). Christ asked the disciples, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?”
Peter answered, “ You [Jesus] are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (vs. 16 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))). Then Christ responded, “You are Peter [petros, which means little rock], and upon this rock [petra, means very great rock, referring to Christ Himself] I [pointing to Himself] will build My church” (vs. 18 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))). Most people assume here that Christ is building His Church on Peter. But this is not the case. Christ is the great “Rock” upon whom the Church is built (Deut. 32:3-4 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)), 15 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)), 18 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)); I Cor. 10:4 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)); Eph. 2:20 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)); I Pet. 2:6 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))), not Peter (Eph. 1:22 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)); 5:23 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)); Col. 1:18 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))).
Christ was telling Peter that He (Christ) was about to establish the New Testament Church, lead it (Eph. 5:23 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))), be with it always (Matt. 28:20 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))), and that the gates of hell [Hades—the grave] would never prevail against it. God’s Church was to continue to exist, doing His Work through the ages as a “little flock” (Luke 12:32 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))), until the end of the age, when it would circle the whole world with the good news of the kingdom of God (Matt. 24:14 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))). This Church would be persecuted (John 15:20 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)); 16:33 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))), but would never die out, remaining until Christ’s Return.
In Matthew 16:19 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)), Christ continues, “And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…” The “keys” He is referring to here is symbolic language meaning that He gives His ministers the knowledge of how to enter the kingdom. This knowledge shows the way of life a Christian must follow in order to achieve salvation. Luke 11:52 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0)) shows Christ reproving certain lawyers for hiding or suppressing this knowledge, thus preventing themselves and others from entering the kingdom.
Continuing, “…and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven…” Some will say that this verse gives men the power or authority to change what God has said in the Bible. This is absolutely not the case! No man can change what God has said! The true ministers of God have been given the authority to bind only that which is in agreement with God’s laws. That, then, would be backed up—bound—by God. When God’s ministers make a decision, it is based on Scripture—based on God’s will. But this in no way is giving ministers the power to forgive sin. Only God can and does that (Mark 2:7 (http://javascript<b></b>:void(0))). God does give ministers the ability to discern when a person has repented of certain sins, thus concluding that God has forgiven them.

Also, I was seven some 33 years ago.:supergrin:

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 15:34
Please provide something other than ad hominem to substantiate that statement.

Early Church Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html)

Read nearly anything on these.
If you need to be spoon-fed, then get this book:

Amazon.com: Four Witnesses: The Early Church in Her Own Words (9780898708479): Rod Bennett: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BtnnK8QFL.@@AMEPARAM@@51BtnnK8QFL

Here are a couple of sources dripping with quotes from the ante-Nicene Fathers
Apostolic Succession (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/apostolic-succession)
The Real Presence (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence)
Bishop, Priest, and Deacon (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/bishop-priest-and-deacon)
The Intercession of the Saints (http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints)

Please substantiate your comment.
See above.

Now, provided there were no SDA's then.
Yes. The SDA came into being after the great dissapointment of 1844. The Council of Nicea occurred in 325. Since 1844 is later than 325, there were no SDAs then.


Also, you are forgetting our good friends the very martyred Albagensians.
We could talk about that, but since it's just your attempt to change the subject, I'd request that you start a different thread.

Telescoping history is only good if you want to obfuscate. I believe that is your goal.

Also, please help me understand why a church persecuted by Rome would call itself the Roman Catholic Church
It doesn't call itself the Roman Catholic Church, as I've explained time and time again in the recent past. I'm sorry if you haven't been able to keep up.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 15:46
Well, let's deal with Matthew 16, shall we?
I've explained this on this site frequently in the past. Your arguments are unrelated to the discussion at hand.

I can understand that you want to obfuscate the issue so as to not have to deal with the historical realities. Please start a new thread if you want to be embarrased on the completely unrelated issue of Peter the Rock.

... unless you're going to try to argue that Jesus promised to give the keys to St. Peter's faith, and not St. Peter himself.

Well, I guess I shouldn't put it past you.
In Matthew 16:19, Christ continues, “And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven…” The “keys” He is referring to here is symbolic language meaning that He gives His ministers the knowledge of how to enter the kingdom. This knowledge shows the way of life a Christian must follow in order to achieve salvation.
Why would you go and distort the plain language of the Bible with your own man-made traditions? Traditions which negate the very Word of God?

Let scripture interpret scripture. Read Isaiah 22. Do you suppose that Jesus was ignorant of Isaiah?

Isa 22:22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Jesus uses very similar words:
Mt 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

From Wikipedia on binding and loosing:
"Binding and loosing is an originally Jewish phrase which appears in the New Testament, as well as in the Targum. In usage to bind and to loose mean simply to forbid by an indisputable authority, and to permit by an indisputable authority."


Also, I was seven some 33 years ago.:supergrin:
Physically, perhaps.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 15:49
In these verses, Christ stated, “And I say unto you, that you are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

BTW, you shouldn't plagiarize from other sources (http://rcg.org/questions/p184.a.html)without at least giving attribution. It could get you in trouble.

Are you embarassed to be quoting from such a biased, inaccurate source?

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 15:58
BTW, you shouldn't plagiarize from other sources (http://rcg.org/questions/p184.a.html)without at least giving attribution. It could get you in trouble.

Are you embarassed to be quoting from such a biased, inaccurate source?

Thanks for providing the link. I should have included it. Their argument is better than yours, whoever they are. It puts me in mind of Luke 9:4-50, "Master,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25351BB))'></sup>said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
<sup class="versenum">50 </sup>“Do not stop him,” Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

Now that we have dispatched with all of that, would you care to deal with the argument at hand?

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 16:21
Thanks for providing the link. I should have included it. Their argument is better than yours, whoever they are.
My argument is Biblical; theirs is suppositional.

I guess that shows where your beliefs lie.
Now that we have dispatched with all of that, would you care to deal with the argument at hand?
I have.

"The keys" in the Bible, as was customary in the ancient near East, connoted authority in the kings absence.
Isa 22:22, Rev 3:7

Jews of the time would have understood the meaning behind this phrase.

Trying to twist it to mean "knowledge" is just making stuff up to fit your agenda. The only place where you could even stretch this is in Luke 11:52, and here it has to specifically call it the key of knowledge.

Just like "key to my car" doesn't imply that you can get into my house, so the key of knowledge doesn't = keys of the kingdom of heaven.

Schabesbert
05-08-2012, 16:22
Now that we have dispatched with all of that, would you care to deal with the argument at hand?
OK, have you responded to post 114 yet?

Brasso
05-08-2012, 18:47
What a book cover. 4 Mithras worshippers. Complete with sun disks around their heads, toting a stick with a sun symbol at the top. Lovely.

I know what Daniel felt like though. Very sickening feeling in your stomach to see God's Word turned upside down and applauded.

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 19:07
OK, have you responded to post 114 yet?

You didn't bring anything to the table, biblical or otherwise in 114. So, you are dodging me again. Why?

creaky
05-08-2012, 19:11
Oh, great. Someone else who's ignorant of how authority is delegated. :upeyes:

This has gone beyond ignorance and is smelling like something much worse....

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 19:38
This has gone beyond ignorance and is smelling like something much worse....

So, you have nothing either?

Vic Hays
05-08-2012, 22:34
Fine, but that's not the point.
Jesus built His Church. He said He would.
This Church would, by the time of St. Paul, be called the "pillar and bulwark of the Truth."



Yes, and Paul said that soon grievous wolves would come into the Church. They did, so it is necessary to follow Paul's advice and prove all things.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Which is why the Holy Scriptures are the standard of Truth.

juggy4711
05-08-2012, 23:18
Anyone else find it hilarious this has degenerated so?

Kingarthurhk
05-08-2012, 23:27
Anyone else find it hilarious this has degenerated so?

Actually, I find it to be a standard issue. Once the Sabbath is brought up the usual folks come in with the usual arguments against it, and it ends up being a debate.

Vic Hays
05-09-2012, 06:41
Anyone else find it hilarious this has degenerated so?

Has this really degenerated?

The subject is the Sabbath.

The crux of the matter is who you are following.

You can not follow God and man at the same time. If you go back and read between the lines you can see that following the Bible is in direct conflict with the doctrines and traditions of men.

Why are men so rebellious when it comes to the direct Word of God? Why do they choose to refuse?

God spoke the Ten Commandments Himself at Sinai. Doesn't His voice create a response within you?

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28 And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’ hand.
10:30 I and my Father are one.
10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

So men choose anything rather than follow God. Even a false Sabbath will do.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 07:27
You didn't bring anything to the table, biblical or otherwise in 114. So, you are dodging me again. Why?
What an odd statement.
You asked me to substantiate my claim:
For CENTURIES the Church was persecuted by Rome.

During those very same centuries, the Church espoused and taught things that are clearly Catholic. And clearly non-SDA.

And then you complain that my claim about HISTORY in the early POST-APOSTOLIC age is based on HISTORY and WITNESSES rather than scripture.

Don't you understand that the Church has declared that the age of new scriptural revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle? It's somthing which you seem to believe, even though you don't realize that this belief comes from the Church and the Church's Authority. (This belief does NOT come from scripture.)

But anyway, your projection in claiming that I am dodging you, as well as your intellectual dishonesty is noted, yet again.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 07:30
Actually, I find it to be a standard issue. Once the Sabbath is brought up the usual folks come in with the usual arguments against it, and it ends up being a debate.
The usual Judaisers come out, you mean.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 07:35
Yes, and Paul said that soon grievous wolves would come into the Church. They did, so it is necessary to follow Paul's advice and prove all things.
And how were we to distinguish the wolves from the shephards?

The shephards taught in accordance with Church teaching!

I Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Which is why the Holy Scriptures are the standard of Truth.
Epic fail.

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from where you have read it.

Whoops! No, that isn't what he said. Here's what it really says:

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

In other words, the paradosis of the Apostles, who had taught Timothy.

2Ti 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

Kingarthurhk
05-09-2012, 08:14
What an odd statement.
You asked me to substantiate my claim:
For CENTURIES the Church was persecuted by Rome.

During those very same centuries, the Church espoused and taught things that are clearly Catholic. And clearly non-SDA.
And then you complain that my claim about HISTORY in the early POST-APOSTOLIC age is based on HISTORY and WITNESSES rather than scripture.

Don't you understand that the Church has declared that the age of new scriptural revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle? It's somthing which you seem to believe, even though you don't realize that this belief comes from the Church and the Church's Authority. (This belief does NOT come from scripture.)

But anyway, your projection in claiming that I am dodging you, as well as your intellectual dishonesty is noted, yet again.

Noted? I hadn't realized that you were part of a new Inquisition.

I have shown you that Peter never had they keys, and Jesus does.

That is why I meant by dodging me. Revelation is very clear who has those keys, and I suspect for a reason.

I understand what scripture has to say and that is solid ground. The Roman Catholic Church teaches many things that are counter to scripture, the Sabbath being just one of them.

The last apostle was John, who wrote the last book in the bible as was revealed to him by none other than Jesus Christ Himself.

The Roman Cahtolic Church has no more authority over the things of God than any other church. Jesus is the authority not Peter, a flawed human being.

Matthew 15:22-23, "Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”
<sup class="versenum">23 </sup>Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23696AC))'></sup> You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Luke 22:31-34, "“Simon, Simon, Satan has asked <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25896AF))'></sup> to sift all of you as wheat. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25896AG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>But I have prayed for you, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25897AH))'></sup> Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25897AI))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">33 </sup>But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25898AJ))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

Mark 14:27-31, "“You will all fall away,” Jesus told them, “for it is written:
“‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.’<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-24782d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24782d)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24782Y))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>But after I have risen, I will go ahead of you into Galilee.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24783Z))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">29 </sup>Peter declared, “Even if all fall away, I will not.”

<sup class="versenum">30 </sup>“Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “today—yes, tonight—before the rooster crows twice<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-24785e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24785e)]</sup> you yourself will disown me three times.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24785AA))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">31 </sup>But Peter insisted emphatically, “Even if I have to die with you, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24786AB))'></sup> I will never disown you.” And all the others said the same."

So here we see who the true shepherd is, Jesus, not Peter.

In an above post, which you have not responded to, it is also shown that Peter was not the Rock either. It was also Jesus.

Mark 14:66-72, "While Peter was below in the courtyard, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24821BF))'></sup> one of the servant girls of the high priest came by. <sup class="versenum">67 </sup>When she saw Peter warming himself, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24822BG))'></sup> she looked closely at him.
“You also were with that Nazarene, Jesus,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24822BH))'></sup>she said.

<sup class="versenum">68 </sup>But he denied it. “I don’t know or understand what you’re talking about,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24823BI))'></sup>he said, and went out into the entryway.<sup class="footnote" value='[g (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-24823g)]'>[g (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24823g)]</sup>

<sup class="versenum">69 </sup>When the servant girl saw him there, she said again to those standing around, “This fellow is one of them.” <sup class="versenum">70 </sup>Again he denied it. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24825BJ))'></sup>
After a little while, those standing near said to Peter, “Surely you are one of them, for you are a Galilean.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24825BK))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">71 </sup>He began to call down curses, and he swore to them, “I don’t know this man you’re talking about.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24826BL))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">72 </sup>Immediately the rooster crowed the second time.<sup class="footnote" value='[h (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-24827h)]'>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24827h)]</sup> Then Peter remembered the word Jesus had spoken to him: “Before the rooster crows twice<sup class="footnote" value='[i (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-24827i)]'>[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24827i)]</sup> you will disown me three times.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-24827BM))'></sup> And he broke down and wept.

In Galatians 2 we find the little rock in trouble yet again:

Galatians 2:11-21, "When Cephas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29093AB))'></sup> came to Antioch, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29093AC))'></sup> I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For before certain men came from James, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29094AD))'></sup> he used to eat with the Gentiles. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29094AE))'></sup> But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29094AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29095AG))'></sup> was led astray.
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AH))'></sup> I said to Cephas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AI))'></sup> in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AJ))'></sup> How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AK))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>“We who are Jews by birth <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29097AL))'></sup> and not sinful Gentiles <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29097AM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29098AN))'></sup> but by faith in Jesus Christ. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29098AO))'></sup> So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29098d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29098d)]</sup> Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29098AP))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29099AQ))'></sup> doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29099AR))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>“For through the law I died to the law <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29101AS))'></sup> so that I might live for God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29101AT))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>I have been crucified with Christ <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AU))'></sup> and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AV))'></sup> The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AW))'></sup> who loved me <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AX))'></sup> and gave himself for me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AY))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29103AZ))'></sup> Christ died for nothing!”
<sup></sup>
<sup></sup>
<sup>So, here we se Peter in trouble yet again, by teaching salvation by works rather than faith and love.</sup>
<sup></sup>
<sup>So, why do you base your church on Peter and not Christ?</sup>

Kingarthurhk
05-09-2012, 08:26
The usual Judaisers come out, you mean.

Ironic, considering you follow Peter.

Galatians 2:11-21, "When Cephas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29093AB))'></sup> came to Antioch, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29093AC))'></sup> I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>For before certain men came from James, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29094AD))'></sup> he used to eat with the Gentiles. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29094AE))'></sup> But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29094AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29095AG))'></sup> was led astray.
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AH))'></sup> I said to Cephas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AI))'></sup> in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AJ))'></sup> How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29096AK))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>“We who are Jews by birth <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29097AL))'></sup> and not sinful Gentiles <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29097AM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29098AN))'></sup> but by faith in Jesus Christ. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29098AO))'></sup> So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29098d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29098d)]</sup> Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29098AP))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>“But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29099AQ))'></sup> doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29099AR))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>“For through the law I died to the law <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29101AS))'></sup> so that I might live for God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29101AT))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>I have been crucified with Christ <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AU))'></sup> and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AV))'></sup> The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AW))'></sup> who loved me <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AX))'></sup> and gave himself for me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29102AY))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29103AZ))'></sup> Christ died for nothing!”<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29103e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%202&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29103e)]</sup>

And as far as that is concerned another apostle had a problem with that as well:

1 Corinthians 1:11-17, "My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28375W))'></sup> have informed me that there are quarrels among you. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376X))'></sup>another, “I follow Apollos”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376Y))'></sup>another, “I follow Cephas<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28376b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28376b)]</sup>”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376Z))'></sup>still another, “I follow Christ.”
<sup class="versenum">13</sup>Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28377AA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28378AB))'></sup> and Gaius, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28378AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>(Yes, I also baptized the household <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28380AD))'></sup> of Stephanas; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28380AE))'></sup> beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For Christ did not send me to baptize, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28381AF))'></sup> but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28381AG))'></sup> and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

So, Christ is what matters, not Peter.

Christ is the solid rock on which we stand, not the pebble.


Psalms118:22-24, “<sup>22</sup> The stone thebuilders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
<sup>23</sup> the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.
<sup>24</sup> The LORD has done it this very day;
let us rejoice today and be glad.”

Matthew 21:42-44, “<sup>42</sup> Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

“‘The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’<sup>[h (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23869h)]</sup>? <o:p></o:p>

<sup>43</sup>“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you andgiven to a people who will produce its fruit. <sup>44</sup> Anyone who falls onthis stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed.”<sup>[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23871i)]</sup>

Daniel 2:34-35, “<sup>34</sup> Whileyou were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck thestatue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. <sup>35</sup> Then theiron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to piecesand became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept themaway without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a hugemountain and filled the whole earth.”

Daniel 2:44-45, “<sup>44</sup> “Inthe time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that willnever be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush allthose kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. <sup>45</sup>This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not byhuman hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver andthe gold to pieces.”

Morever, the 10 Commandments were written in stone by the Hand of God, not on the pebble.

Jesus is the solid Rock.


4Him - The Solid Rock - YouTube

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 08:39
I have shown you that Peter never had they keys, and Jesus does.
And I disputed your depiction of Jesus as a liar. He promised in Matthew 16 to give to Peter the Keys to the Kingdom.

Also, YOU didn't attempt to show anything; you just cut and pasted from a misleading website. Apparently you're unable to think on your own.

That is why I meant by dodging me. Revelation is very clear who has those keys, and I suspect for a reason.
And this is one example of what I mean by your intellectual dishonesty.

I very patiently explained to you how you're interpretation is wrong in post 112. Since you seem so intent on ignoring this, I'll re-post it.
Oh, great. Someone else who's ignorant of how authority is delegated. :upeyes:

You'd have Jesus lying when He promised to give St. Peter the keys. I have a problem with that.

If you were to actually understand the Bible, perhaps you'd be able to tell me: during the reign of king Hezekiah, who had the keys to the house of David?

They were taken from Shebna and given to Eliakim.

Hmmm ... didn't Hezekiah have the keys?

Of course he did. He was the king.

But it says that Shebna was "over the household" in Isaiah 22:15. Does that mean, in your ever-so confused mind, that Shebna out-ranked Hezekiah?

Of course not. Nor does it mean that St. Peter out-ranks Jesus. However, Jesus GAVE St. Peter the keys. At least WE believe that He did; scripture says so.

Instead, you & those like you want to pit one verse of scripture against another.

I understand what scripture has to say and that is solid ground.
I'm hoping this isn't true. If it IS true, then you're purposefully misrepresenting and distorting scripture, a far more serious matter than the mere ignorance you seem to be displaying.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches many things that are counter to scripture, the Sabbath being just one of them.
You keep asserting this, but yet you've never been able to make such charges stick.

The last apostle was John, who wrote the last book in the bible as was revealed to him by none other than Jesus Christ Himself.
Well, that's the teaching of the Catholic Church. But how do YOU know this to be factual?

The Roman Cahtolic Church has no more authority over the things of God than any other church. Jesus is the authority not Peter, a flawed human being.
Jesus IS the authority, and so WE believe that He has the authority to pass on authority even to flawed men. What we disagree with is your assertion that anyone can just arrogate that authrity to themselves. Just like you couldn't start a new congress and say that its authority is equal to the US congress.


Yes. Peter was a sinner. Nobody claimed otherwise.

So?

So here we see who the true shepherd is, Jesus, not Peter.
Jesus is the true shepherd, and yet He appointed St. Peter to "feed My lambs ... tend my sheep ... feed my sheep."

Joh 21:15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."
16 A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.

One of your problems is your either/or approach to revealed Truth. It's a false dichotomy. Yes, Jesus is the true shepherd, and yet Jesus HIMSELF appoints St. Peter to shepherd His sheep. You deny part of scripture in favor of another part. Catholic teaching is to accept ALL of scripture.

You're left with a series of half-truths, while Catholicism teaches the fullness of Truth.

In an above post, which you have not responded to, it is also shown that Peter was not the Rock either. It was also Jesus.
I know you have trouble with reading, but denial of things written must reflect either outright dishonesty or, if you just don't read the whole thing, laziness.

In post #116 I wrote:
I've explained this on this site frequently in the past. Your arguments are unrelated to the discussion at hand.

I can understand that you want to obfuscate the issue so as to not have to deal with the historical realities. Please start a new thread if you want to be embarrased on the completely unrelated issue of Peter the Rock.

... unless you're going to try to argue that Jesus promised to give the keys to St. Peter's faith, and not St. Peter himself.

Well, I guess I shouldn't put it past you.



So, here we se Peter in trouble yet again, by teaching salvation by works rather than faith and love.
:rofl:
Yes, Galatians 2:11-21 he was falling into the trap of the Judaisers, such as yourself!!!

St. Paul is admonishing St. Peter because he was going against his very own magisterial proclamation that gentiles no longer need to follow the Mosaic Law! St. Peter was withdrawing from eating with the gentiles, who didn't follow the kosher practices you champion, and St. Paul was criticizing him because of it!!

:wavey:
Thanks for pointing that out!

So, why do you base your church on Peter and not Christ?
Again, we follow St. Peter BECAUSE CHRIST TELLS US SO.

You still have to conquer your either/or half-truth mentality.

Vic Hays
05-09-2012, 09:00
And how were we to distinguish the wolves from the shephards?

The shephards taught in accordance with Church teaching!


Epic fail.

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from where you have read it.

Whoops! No, that isn't what he said. Here's what it really says:

2Ti 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it

In other words, the paradosis of the Apostles, who had taught Timothy.

2Ti 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

The True teachers teach that same stuff that Paul taught and is recorded in the Bible.

There is no end to philosophy and deceit without that standard. The Church is not automatically protected from encountering philosophy.

This is why the Biblical Sabbath Truth is so important. This Bible Truth distinguishes the Truth from philosophy. satan would like nothing so much as to destroy confidence in the Holy Bible.

II Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The Bible is the standard of faith and practice.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 09:38
The Bible is the standard of faith and practice.
And yet, the Bible nowhere makes that assertion.
Therefore, by your very own test, since if this were to be true it would need to be stated in the Bible, this is untrue.

Now, since we don't need your man-made test, we Catholics can assert that the Bible is A standard of faith and practice.

Kingarthurhk
05-09-2012, 12:27
And yet, the Bible nowhere makes that assertion.
Therefore, by your very own test, since if this were to be true it would need to be stated in the Bible, this is untrue.

Now, since we don't need your man-made test, we Catholics can assert that the Bible is A standard of faith and practice.

And that is why it failed and adopted practices that are clearly against the character and word of God and Christ. That is why it developed the Inquisition. That is why it put so many people to death. That is why it claimed authority that only belongs to God. That is why it claimed to be the replacement of God on earth.

Because onece you abandon the Bible as THE standard of faith and practice anything is possible.

Psalm 119:9-16, "How can a young person stay on the path of purity? <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15908Q))'></sup>
By living according to your word. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15908R))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>I seek you with all my heart; <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15909S))'></sup>
do not let me stray from your commands. <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15909T))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>I have hidden your word in my heart <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15910U))'></sup>
that I might not sin <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15910V))'></sup> against you.
<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Praise be <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15911W))'></sup> to you, Lord;
teach me <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15911X))'></sup> your decrees. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15911Y))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>With my lips I recount
all the laws that come from your mouth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15912Z))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>I rejoice in following your statutes <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15913AA))'></sup>
as one rejoices in great riches.
<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>I meditate on your precepts <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15914AB))'></sup>
and consider your ways.
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>I delight <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15915AC))'></sup> in your decrees;
I will not neglect your word."

Matthew 4:4, "Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-23214b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b)]</sup>”

Deuteronomy 8:3, "He humbled <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141E))'></sup> you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141F))'></sup> which neither you nor your ancestors had known, to teach <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141G))'></sup> you that man does not live on bread <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141H))'></sup> alone but on every word that comes from the mouth <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5141I))'></sup> of the Lord."

Psalm 119:89-96, " Your word, Lord, is eternal; <sup class="crossreference" value='(EW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15988EW))'></sup>
it stands firm in the heavens.
<sup class="versenum">90 </sup>Your faithfulness <sup class="crossreference" value='(EX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15989EX))'></sup> continues through all generations; <sup class="crossreference" value='(EY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15989EY))'></sup>
you established the earth, and it endures. <sup class="crossreference" value='(EZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15989EZ))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">91 </sup>Your laws endure <sup class="crossreference" value='(FA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15990FA))'></sup> to this day,
for all things serve you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(FB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15990FB))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">92 </sup>If your law had not been my delight, <sup class="crossreference" value='(FC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15991FC))'></sup>
I would have perished in my affliction. <sup class="crossreference" value='(FD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15991FD))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">93 </sup>I will never forget <sup class="crossreference" value='(FE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15992FE))'></sup> your precepts,
for by them you have preserved my life. <sup class="crossreference" value='(FF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15992FF))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">94 </sup>Save me, <sup class="crossreference" value='(FG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15993FG))'></sup> for I am yours;
I have sought out your precepts. <sup class="crossreference" value='(FH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15993FH))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">95 </sup>The wicked are waiting to destroy me, <sup class="crossreference" value='(FI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15994FI))'></sup>
but I will ponder your statutes. <sup class="crossreference" value='(FJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15994FJ))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">96 </sup>To all perfection I see a limit,
but your commands are boundless."

Isaiah 40:6-8, "A voice says, “Cry out.”
And I said, “What shall I cry?”
“All people are like grass, <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18427P))'></sup>
and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field.
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>The grass withers <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18428Q))'></sup> and the flowers fall,
because the breath <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18428R))'></sup> of the Lord blows <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18428S))'></sup> on them.
Surely the people are grass.
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The grass withers and the flowers <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18429T))'></sup> fall,
but the word <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18429U))'></sup> of our God endures <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-18429V))'></sup> forever.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(FK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-15995FK))'></sup>

1 Peter 1:24-25, "<sup> </sup>For,
“All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
<sup class="versenum">25 </sup> but the word of the Lord endures forever.”<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30400c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30400c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(BT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30400BT))'></sup>

And this is the word that was preached to you."

Malachi 3:6-7, "“I the Lord do not change. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23127X))'></sup> So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23127Y))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Ever since the time of your ancestors you have turned away <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23128Z))'></sup> from my decrees and have not kept them. Return <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23128AA))'></sup> to me, and I will return to you,” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-23128AB))'></sup>says the Lord Almighty."

Psalms 18:7-9, "The law of the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176O))'></sup> is perfect, <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176P))'></sup>
refreshing the soul. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176Q))'></sup>
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176R))'></sup>
making wise the simple. <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176S))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The precepts of the Lord are right, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14177T))'></sup>
giving joy <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14177U))'></sup> to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14177V))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>The fear of the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14178W))'></sup> is pure,
enduring forever.
The decrees of the Lord are firm,
and all of them are righteous."<sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14178X))'></sup>

Revelation 22:18-19 says, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." <sup class="versenum"></sup>

Brasso
05-09-2012, 14:01
And yet, the Bible nowhere makes that assertion.


Quit Lying !

Yes it does.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

These are just 2 direct examples. It is because you believe God to be a liar and the Pope to be all powerful that you make so many errors.

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 15:25
Quit Lying !
Never have!

Yes it does.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

These are just 2 direct examples. :yawn:
They may be 2 direct examples, but not examples of what you assert.

For those of you with actual operating brains, this can't possibly mean what Brasso asserts, or else any writing after the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible) would be violating these commands. I knew Brasso displayed Pharisaic tendencies, but now he's upped the ante to tending toward the beliefs of the Sadducees.

Now, if anyone can provide a statement from the Bible that says that it is THE standard of faith and practice, please do.

Here's a very brief outline of the case against sola scriptura (http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num6.htm)

It is because you believe God to be a liar and the Pope to be all powerful that you make so many errors.
Is that all you've got? Telling lies about what I believe? :yawn:
The Lord was lied about, too, and He predicted that we'd be treated in a like manner. So, thanks!

Schabesbert
05-09-2012, 15:37
And that is why it failed
Failed? :wow:
Sorry, hasn't happened yet.

Men have tried for 2,000 years to make it fail. Both outside and inside the Church. But the Church is still there. The Bride of Christ will always be there, as Jesus promised. Even the gates of Hell, very closely aligned with Kingarthurhk's beliefs, cannot prevail against it.

and adopted practices that are clearly against the character and word of God and Christ. That is why it developed the Inquisition. That is why it put so many people to death.
Despite the fact that protestants have lied and grossly inflated any case against the Church by enormous amounts, it is true that the Church contains sinful men. Jesus predicted that, and said that would be the case until His return.

So, my answer is: so what?

It's still the Church that He built.

That is why it claimed authority that only belongs to God. That is why it claimed to be the replacement of God on earth.
See what I mean about protestants lying?

Because onece you abandon the Bible as THE standard of faith and practice anything is possible.
It's unfortunate that your belief is illogical and self-contradictory. But that's only part of what's wrong with it.

"Your Word" in the Psalm is NOT limited to scripture alone, is it?

For example, Jesus spent 40 days teaching the Apostles after His resurrection:
Ac 1:3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

None of this is written down, but yet these teachings are every bit as much God's Word as the scriptures are.

All the other quotes show that the scriptures are wonderfully good things. Yes, Catholics believe and teach this.

Kingarthurhk
05-09-2012, 16:18
Failed? :wow:
Sorry, hasn't happened yet.

Interesting.

Daniel 7:17, "
<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

<sup class="versenum">23 </sup>Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

<sup class="versenum">26 </sup>But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him."

No other church has attempted to change the times and laws, or thought that it had the authority to do so. What church made midnight to midnight instead of sundown to sundown? Which church decided by its own authority to change God's laws to do away with two of the commandments? The Second not to make any graven images, and the Fourth to remember the Seventh-Day Sabbath?

Revelation 13:2-9, "The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30911G))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30912H))'></sup> The whole world was filled with wonder <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30912I))'></sup> and followed the beast. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30913J))'></sup> the beast? Who can wage war against it?”
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30914K))'></sup> and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30914L))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30915M))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>It was given power to wage war <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30916N))'></sup> against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30916O))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>All inhabitants of the earth <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30917P))'></sup> will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30917Q))'></sup> the Lamb <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30917R))'></sup> who was slain from the creation of the world.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30917b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2013&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30917b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30917S))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Whoever has ears, let them hear. "

Here Jesus references that church yet again.

This same church was given a deadly wound by Napoleon who took the Pope into custody. But, now she is back in power again.


Men have tried for 2,000 years to make it fail. Both outside and inside the Church. But the Church is still there. The Bride of Christ will always be there, as Jesus promised. Even the gates of Hell, very closely aligned with Kingarthurhk's beliefs, cannot prevail against it.

Actually, Daniel 7 says God Himself will destroy this church power and set up his own dominion forever. There are two churches, one belonging to Christ, the other not. Let us see which one matches best?

Revelation 17:3-10, "Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30979G))'></sup> into a wilderness. <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30979H))'></sup> There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30979I))'></sup> beast that was covered with blasphemous names <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30979J))'></sup> and had seven heads and ten horns. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30979K))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30980L))'></sup> She held a golden cup <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30980M))'></sup> in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30980N))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>The name written on her forehead was a mystery: <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30981O))'></sup>
babylon the great <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30981P))'></sup>
the mother of prostitutes <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30981Q))'></sup>
and of the abominations of the earth.


<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30982R))'></sup> the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30983S))'></sup> of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30983T))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30984U))'></sup> and go to its destruction. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30984V))'></sup> The inhabitants of the earth <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30984W))'></sup> whose names have not been written in the book of life <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30984X))'></sup> from the creation of the world will be astonished <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30984Y))'></sup> when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“This calls for a mind with wisdom. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30985Z))'></sup> The seven heads <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30985AA))'></sup> are seven hills on which the woman sits. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while."

Rome is called the city of the seven hills. Whose clergy dress in pruple and scarlet? Whose churches are decorated in gold in precious stones? Which church shed the blood of the saints?

Now, let us see what the bridge of Christ really looks like.

Revelation 12:
" A great sign <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30893A))'></sup> appeared in heaven: <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30893B))'></sup> a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30893C))'></sup> on her head. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>She was pregnant and cried out in pain <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30894D))'></sup> as she was about to give birth. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Then another sign appeared in heaven: <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30895E))'></sup> an enormous red dragon <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30895F))'></sup> with seven heads <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30895G))'></sup> and ten horns <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30895H))'></sup> and seven crowns <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30895I))'></sup> on its heads. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Its tail swept a third <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30896J))'></sup> of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30896K))'></sup> The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30896L))'></sup> the moment he was born. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30897a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30897a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30897M))'></sup> And her child was snatched up <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30897N))'></sup> to God and to his throne. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30898O))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Then war broke out in heaven. Michael <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30899P))'></sup> and his angels fought against the dragon, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30899Q))'></sup> and the dragon and his angels <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30899R))'></sup> fought back. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30901S))'></sup> called the devil, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30901T))'></sup> or Satan, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30901U))'></sup> who leads the whole world astray. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30901V))'></sup> He was hurled to the earth, <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30901W))'></sup> and his angels with him.

<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Then I heard a loud voice in heaven <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30902X))'></sup> say:
“Now have come the salvation <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30902Y))'></sup> and the power
and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Messiah.
For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30902Z))'></sup>
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>They triumphed over <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30903AA))'></sup> him
by the blood of the Lamb <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30903AB))'></sup>
and by the word of their testimony; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30903AC))'></sup>
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30903AD))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Therefore rejoice, you heavens <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AE))'></sup>
and you who dwell in them!
But woe <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AF))'></sup> to the earth and the sea, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30904AG))'></sup>
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”


<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>When the dragon <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30905AH))'></sup> saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30905AI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30906AJ))'></sup> so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30906AK))'></sup> out of the serpent’s reach. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Then from his mouth the serpent <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30907AL))'></sup> spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30909AM))'></sup> against the rest of her offspring <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30909AN))'></sup> —those who keep God’s commands <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30909AO))'></sup> and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

There is a clear and distinct difference.


Despite the fact that protestants have lied and grossly inflated any case against the Church by enormous amounts, it is true that the Church contains sinful men. Jesus predicted that, and said that would be the case until His return.

History refutes your statement. The only place where there is an appologetics for this action is found in the Catholic Encylopedia, hardly a history book. Yes, Jesus did predict this will happen until His return, as shown in the above passages. But when the true Rock returns, it will all be put right.


Daniel 2:34-35, “<sup>34</sup> Whileyou were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck thestatue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. <sup>35</sup> Then theiron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to piecesand became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept themaway without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a hugemountain and filled the whole earth.”

Daniel 2:44-45, “<sup>44</sup> “Inthe time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that willnever be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush allthose kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. <sup>45</sup>This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not byhuman hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver andthe gold to pieces.”


So, my answer is: so what?

I have noticed that.


It's still the Church that He built.

No, sadly, it is not.


See what I mean about protestants lying?

We offer you scripture, you tell us scripture has no meaning and is not releveant. Clearly, if you feel that way, anything is possible. All this based upon setting up a church based on a misinterpratation of Matthew 18.


It's unfortunate that your belief is illogical and self-contradictory. But that's only part of what's wrong with it.

Our position is based upon scripture, what is yours based upon?


"Your Word" in the Psalm is NOT limited to scripture alone, is it?

For example, Jesus spent 40 days teaching the Apostles after His resurrection:
Ac 1:3 To them he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days, and speaking of the kingdom of God.

None of this is written down, but yet these teachings are every bit as much God's Word as the scriptures are.

All the other quotes show that the scriptures are wonderfully good things. Yes, Catholics believe and teach this.

Good, I am glad the Catholic Church is comming back to scripture. That is the only safe place to be. Now, that we have dispensed with all of this, understand we are frustrated with your system, and not with all Catholics for the sake of their Catholicism. Can you say the same for us?

Brasso
05-10-2012, 06:28
For those of you with actual operating brains, this can't possibly mean what Brasso asserts, or else any writing after the Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible) would be violating these commands. I knew Brasso displayed Pharisaic tendencies, but now he's upped the ante to tending toward the beliefs of the Sadducees.

It is you who can't believe the Bible because you put your faith in the RCC. There is nothing written in the Bible that violates the Torah. Nothing. Old or New Testament. It's your beliefs that violate the Torah. It's your RCC that violates Torah.

God does NOT change.

Quit calling Him a liar. For your own soul.

Vic Hays
05-10-2012, 09:29
And that is why it failed and adopted practices that are clearly against the character and word of God and Christ. That is why it developed the Inquisition. That is why it put so many people to death. That is why it claimed authority that only belongs to God. That is why it claimed to be the replacement of God on earth.

Because onece you abandon the Bible as THE standard of faith and practice anything is possible.

Psalms 18:7-9, "The law of the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176O))'></sup> is perfect, <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176P))'></sup>
refreshing the soul. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176Q))'></sup>
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176R))'></sup>
making wise the simple. <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14176S))'></sup>
[SIZE=2]<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>The precepts of the Lord are right, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14177T))'></sup>
giving joy <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14177U))'></sup> to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14177V))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>The fear of the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14178W))'></sup> is pure,
enduring forever.
The decrees of the Lord are firm,
and all of them are righteous."

Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
119:12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.


The real problem is a satanic philosophy that says several things.

1. Morality changes ( the Moral Law of the Ten Commandments can change)

2. The Book of the Law and the Ten Commandments have been fulfilled. (half truth, the Book of the Law was fulfilled in Christ)

3. The Book of the Law and the Ten Commandments were only for the Jews. (half truth, the Ten Commandments are the covenant and enduring the Book of the Law was for the nation of Israel while it was under a theocracy)

4. We are all sinners so there is no sense in trying to be moral. ( by faith we establish the law )

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

Romans 7:12 Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yes, we establish the law.