LDS vs SDA Same Thing? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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seanmac45
04-29-2012, 17:05
Pardon my curiosity, I was raised Roman Catholic and in reading various threads and watching some portions of the series Big Love I see many similarities between the two faiths.

Both require their believers to go out on missions.

Both seem to be very closed off from outsiders, i.e. they don't seem to socialize outside of the faith.

Both seem to have an emphasis on prepping.

I am not trying to be insulting or a wise guy, I was just wondering if they are basically the same faith the way Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are.

Gombey
04-29-2012, 17:14
Missions are not a requirement in the SDA Church, also I have many friends that are not Adventists. As for prepping I have only met one that thinks its a good idea. For the most part it is kind of discouraged.

That, is in my experience. I'm sure others will be along to tell you of theirs. Feel free to PM me if you like.

seanmac45
04-29-2012, 17:17
OK so I am mistaken. No offense intended, I am merely trying to understand what I though was the relationship between the two.

But many SDA do go on missions, no?

Kingarthurhk
04-29-2012, 17:40
The LDS and Adventists are worlds apart. In reference to the show "Big Love" it is not a common practice with the LDS, and is strictly forbidden in Adventism.

Adventists believe in the entire bible, and do not believe that anything supercedes the bible. LDS believes that the Book of Mormon is the Bible for the Americas and the Bible that the rest of protestantism subscribes to as simply for the Middle Eastern part of the world.

Adventists do have missions and missionaries that go as the spirit leads them to do so. LDS requires those that come of age to be missionaries, which is why many of them are very good linguists, because they have to witness to wherever they are assigned in the native language of the people.

LDS believe that having lots of children are a good thing, because if they are faithful, the father becomes a god of his own universe with his family serving him.

Adventists believe only in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit as coequal unified Godhead.

LDS keep Sunday.

Adventists keep Saturday.

Adventists are looking forward to the soon return of Jesus Christ.

I hope that helps you with your confusion.:wavey:

Gombey
04-29-2012, 17:44
None taken! I was playing with my daughter while I was typing this so I was not paying too close attention.

Missions are encouraged in some churches more than others, but yes they are encouraged.

Sorry if my previous post came across wrong. I really have no problem answering questions. I spend a good deal of time doing it when people find out my denomination.

Gombey
04-29-2012, 17:45
What kind of show is Big Love? I thought that was someone's user name. I tend to stay out of this part of the forum…

seanmac45
04-29-2012, 17:47
Thanks for the input. It's obvious that I had some really wrong assumptions about the two being alike.

seanmac45
04-29-2012, 17:49
Big Love was a series about a polygamist Mormon family. It was interesting for the way it portrayed the structure of their faith, but I also assumed it had a lot of inaccuracies.

Gombey
04-29-2012, 17:50
Ok, got yah. Thanks.

Mister_Beefy
04-29-2012, 19:01
Serving a mission is not a requirement in the LDS faith. It is encouraged, but the choice is theirs and there is no punishment for choosing not to go.

Don't get your info on LDS from Big Love. If you assumed it contained a lot of inaccuracies, you assumed right. It contains nothing but inaccuracies.

The show is very high production value anti-Mormon propaganda.

produced by Tom Hanks, the guy that said Mormons were un-American.

Kingarthurhk is correct, LDS and SDA are worlds apart. But both are Christian denominations.

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 19:18
Pardon my curiosity, I was raised Roman Catholic and in reading various threads and watching some portions of the series Big Love I see many similarities between the two faiths.

Both require their believers to go out on missions.

Both seem to be very closed off from outsiders, i.e. they don't seem to socialize outside of the faith.

Both seem to have an emphasis on prepping.

I am not trying to be insulting or a wise guy, I was just wondering if they are basically the same faith the way Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are.

I am a Seventh-day Adventist and I can tell you that the LDS is closer to Catholicism than to Seventh-day Adventists.

1. The Seventh-day Adventists do not require their members to go out on missions.

2. As far as socializing no problem except it is not a good thing to do very worldly activities like drinking etc.

3. There is an emphasis on being ready for the last days, however, the LDS encourage their members to stockpile food etc. Seventh-day Adventists are warned not to stockpile food.

The major preparation for the Bible "Time of Trouble" is spiritual preparation to be found in faith.

"
MARANATHA, PAGE 181

Food and Lands in the Last Days, June 22

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is evil thereof. Matthew 6:34.
The Lord has shown me in vision, repeatedly, that it is contrary to the Bible to make any provision for our temporal wants in the time of trouble. I saw that if the saints have food laid up by them, or in the fields, in the time of trouble when sword, famine, and pestilence are in the land, it will be taken from them by violent hands, and strangers would reap their fields. Then will be the time for us to trust wholly in God, and He will sustain us. I saw that our bread and water would be sure at that time, and we should not lack, or suffer hunger. The Lord has shown me that some of His children would fear when they see the price of food rising, and they would buy food and lay it by for the time of trouble. Then in a time of need, I saw them go to their food and look at it, and it had bred worms, and was full of living creatures, and not fit for use."

Mister_Beefy
04-29-2012, 19:23
1. The Seventh-day Adventists do not require their members to go out on missions.




:rofl: Neither do the Latter-Day Saints.

juggy4711
04-29-2012, 19:52
There are similarities in that both denominations arose in the 19th century and that both diverge greatly from other more main stream Christian philosophies. Both require the belief that a person in the 1800's some how figured out or was enlightened to the "true" version of Christianity.

While they both have their issues with prophets that were really just either crazy folks or skillfully aware of how they could manipulate others through scripture, I have found LDS to be way more out of line.

Vic Hays
04-29-2012, 23:23
There are similarities in that both denominations arose in the 19th century and that both diverge greatly from other more main stream Christian philosophies. Both require the belief that a person in the 1800's some how figured out or was enlightened to the "true" version of Christianity.

While they both have their issues with prophets that were really just either crazy folks or skillfully aware of how they could manipulate others through scripture, I have found LDS to be way more out of line.

Seventh -day Adventists use the Bible as the only rule of faith and practice.
LDS consider the Book of Mormon more relevant.

There are always counterfeits when the Lord is going forward with His plan. In this case it is the Spirit of prophecy that has been counterfeited.

Out of the 1800's came 3 counterfeits claiming direct inspiration. JW's, Christian Science, and Latter Day Saints. Only the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice.

Proverbs 29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keeps the law, happy is he.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

seanmac45
04-30-2012, 06:29
Thanks for all of the informative replies. It sounds like a topic (the 1800's offshoots of Christianity) that would make for a large book of reading.

I have one more clarifying question; Are all Mormons LDS, or is LDS a portion of the larger Mormon faith?

Also, I realize that Big Love was heavily dramatized and more than likely way out there, but it did seem interesting how in some ways it paralleled the Warren Jeffs case.

Thanks again for everyone who took the time to enlighten me.

rgregoryb
04-30-2012, 06:48
You can get all kind of info on both from the book "Kingdom of the Cults" Gee, they are both in a book about cults..........we call that a clue.

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 08:43
You can get all kind of info on both from the book "Kingdom of the Cults" Gee, they are both in a book about cults..........we call that a clue.

If you read the book yourself you would find that the book classified the Seventh-day Adventists as Christian not a cult.

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 08:53
Thanks for all of the informative replies. It sounds like a topic (the 1800's offshoots of Christianity) that would make for a large book of reading.

I have one more clarifying question; Are all Mormons LDS, or is LDS a portion of the larger Mormon faith?

Also, I realize that Big Love was heavily dramatized and more than likely way out there, but it did seem interesting how in some ways it paralleled the Warren Jeffs case.

Thanks again for everyone who took the time to enlighten me.

The Seventh-day Adventists see themselves as a continuation of the Reformation. Their strangeness is accounted for by their adherence to the Bible rather than tradition and the special way that God has led and grown the Church.

There are several LDS offshoots that do not follow the main body of LDS such as the Polygamists and others as there are for just about any faith. One thing that made the LDS strong was the persecution that they received from the mainline Protestant churches. They did not just wander for no reason out into the desert of Utah. They were forced to depend upon one another. It made them strong enough that they believe that they will soon rule the world. They own Utah so they have a start. Wow, there sure are a lot of folks who think their particular religion or sect is going to rule the world.

Mister_Beefy
04-30-2012, 11:27
Thanks for all of the informative replies. It sounds like a topic (the 1800's offshoots of Christianity) that would make for a large book of reading.

I have one more clarifying question; Are all Mormons LDS, or is LDS a portion of the larger Mormon faith?

Also, I realize that Big Love was heavily dramatized and more than likely way out there, but it did seem interesting how in some ways it paralleled the Warren Jeffs case.

Thanks again for everyone who took the time to enlighten me.

The name of the Mormon church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Latter-Day Saints = LDS. It's just a nickname, as is Mormons, which comes from the Book of Mormon.

Jeffs is not, and never was a Mormon. Neither are those that practice polygamy. (although the only reason why it was outlawed is because Mormons were doing it.)

The "Mormons will take over everything!" line has been used for decade upon decade as the basis for lying, bigotry, and violence.

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 11:44
The "Mormons will take over everything!" line has been used for decade upon decade as the basis for lying, bigotry, and violence.

I just want everything to be presented honestly. Where did you get your information or is that the stock answer?

The Mormons according to the Mormons expect to rule the world. This Wikipedia article says thay have given up on the idea, but I have been told by Mormons that they will rule the earth and build the New Jerusalem.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Fifty
"The Council of Fifty (also known as the Living Constitution, the Kingdom of God, or its name by revelation, The Kingdom of God and His Laws with the Keys and Power thereof, and Judgment in the Hands of His Servants, Ahman Christ)[1] was a Latter Day Saint organization established by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1844 to symbolize and represent a future theocratic or theodemocratic "Kingdom of God" on the earth.[2] Smith and his successor Brigham Young hoped to create this Kingdom in preparation for the Millennium and the Second Coming of Jesus. The political Kingdom of God, organized around the Council of Fifty, was meant to be a force of peace and order in the midst of this chaos. According to Mormon teachings, while Jesus himself would be king of this new world government, its structure was in fact to be quasi-republican and multi-denominational; therefore, the early Council of Fifty included both Mormons and non-Mormons.[3] Although the Council played a significant role during the last few months of Joseph Smith's life, particularly in his campaign for President of the United States, the Council's role was mostly symbolic throughout the 19th century within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This was largely because the Council was primarily meant for a time when secular governments had ceased to function. Regular meetings of the Council ended in 1884, after the church publicly abandoned its theocratic aspirations. The organization was technically extinguished when its last member, Heber J. Grant, died in 1945."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem
"Latter Day Saint
See also: Zion (Latter Day Saints)
In the Latter Day Saint movement (Mormonism), the New Jerusalem is viewed as a physical kingdom that will be built in North America,[19] centered around Independence, Missouri.[20] The movement refers to the New Jerusalem as Zion. The movement's founder, Joseph Smith, Jr., attempted to establish this Zion in the early 1830s, and drafted a detailed plat of Zion based on his view of the biblical description of the New Jerusalem, including plans for a temple. However, due to political and military rivalry with other Missouri settlers, members of the religion were expelled from Missouri in 1838. Subsequently, several Latter Day Saint denominations have established residence there, believing that it will be the center of God's Millennial kingdom."

BTW The Mormons teach that the Ten Commandments must be kept, but they do not keep the Seventh-day Sabbath.

muscogee
04-30-2012, 12:25
Big Love was a series about a polygamist Mormon family. It was interesting for the way it portrayed the structure of their faith, but I also assumed it had a lot of inaccuracies.

I watched the first the episodes of Big Love. It was nothing but blatant Mormon bashing. If they had done something like that to the Catholics or Baptists heads would have rolled. I'm areligious, but I was offended by Big Love. It was just a cheap shot with no redeeming values.

Having written that, I can't believe your question. SDA and LDS both use the Catholic Bible and they both believe in the Trinity. There may be other similarities, but not many. The LDS use an additional book called, The Book Of Mormon. I'm sure they'll send you one or you can go to any hotel in Las Vegas and ask for one. That's how I go t mine.

Mister_Beefy
04-30-2012, 13:36
I just want everything to be presented honestly. Where did you get your information or is that the stock answer?

yeah, becuase I got my information from wikipedia, so there!

I am a lifelong member, that's where I got my information.

(in before the "you're brainwashed!" bit starts)



The Mormons according to the Mormons expect to rule the world. This Wikipedia article says thay have given up on the idea, but I have been told by Mormons that they will rule the earth and build the New Jerusalem.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Fifty
"The Council of Fifty (also known as the Living Constitution, the Kingdom of God, or its name by revelation, The Kingdom of God and His Laws with the Keys and Power thereof, and Judgment in the Hands of His Servants, Ahman Christ)[1] was a Latter Day Saint organization established by Joseph Smith, Jr. in 1844 to symbolize and represent a future theocratic or theodemocratic "Kingdom of God" on the earth.[2] Smith and his successor Brigham Young hoped to create this Kingdom in preparation for the Millennium and the Second Coming of Jesus. The political Kingdom of God, organized around the Council of Fifty, was meant to be a force of peace and order in the midst of this chaos. According to Mormon teachings, while Jesus himself would be king of this new world government, its structure was in fact to be quasi-republican and multi-denominational; therefore, the early Council of Fifty included both Mormons and non-Mormons.[3] Although the Council played a significant role during the last few months of Joseph Smith's life, particularly in his campaign for President of the United States, the Council's role was mostly symbolic throughout the 19th century within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This was largely because the Council was primarily meant for a time when secular governments had ceased to function. Regular meetings of the Council ended in 1884, after the church publicly abandoned its theocratic aspirations. The organization was technically extinguished when its last member, Heber J. Grant, died in 1945."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jerusalem
"Latter Day Saint
See also: Zion (Latter Day Saints)
In the Latter Day Saint movement (Mormonism), the New Jerusalem is viewed as a physical kingdom that will be built in North America,[19] centered around Independence, Missouri.[20] The movement refers to the New Jerusalem as Zion. The movement's founder, Joseph Smith, Jr., attempted to establish this Zion in the early 1830s, and drafted a detailed plat of Zion based on his view of the biblical description of the New Jerusalem, including plans for a temple. However, due to political and military rivalry with other Missouri settlers, members of the religion were expelled from Missouri in 1838. Subsequently, several Latter Day Saint denominations have established residence there, believing that it will be the center of God's Millennial kingdom."

the bold portions ask the question "and your point is...?"

yeah, those multibillionare Mormons are just biding their time to take over the world.

Like most, you're confusing doctrine and politics.




BTW The Mormons teach that the Ten Commandments must be kept, but they do not keep the Seventh-day Sabbath.


you don't believe as I do, so you're WRONG!

:rofl: you sound like an atheist.

Roering
04-30-2012, 14:24
LDS and SDA?

Both are US - centric
Both have their own "prophet(ess)"
Both have end times beliefs specific to themselves
Both have specific dietary restrictions
Both were founded near the same time
Both are protestant

There are quite a few similarities. These just to name a few.

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 17:13
LDS and SDA?

Both are US - centric
Both have their own "prophet(ess)"
Both have end times beliefs specific to themselves
Both have specific dietary restrictions
Both were founded near the same time
Both are protestant

There are quite a few similarities. These just to name a few.

LDS and Catholic. There are quite a few similarities. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

Both believe in a human priesthood separate from the laity
Both believe that the keys give them Apostolic authority
Both believe they confer this authority onward
Both have their own prophetic office
Both have end time beliefs specific to themselves
Both have dietary restrictions
Both keep the Ten Commandments in a modified form
Both have doctrines based on writings other than the Bible

BTW Jesus kept the Seventh-day Sabbath and looked forward to his second advent so He was a Seventh-day Adventist.

You can do the same with about anyone's faith.

Mister_Beefy
04-30-2012, 18:16
BTW Jesus kept the Seventh-day Sabbath and looked forward to his second advent so He was a Seventh-day Adventist.



:rofl::rofl: alrighty then.


You can do the same with about anyone's faith.

yup, which is why only one has the Book of Mormon.

rgregoryb
04-30-2012, 18:31
yup, salamanders angels and golden spectacles always make for a good story

rgregoryb
04-30-2012, 18:32
deleted

muscogee
04-30-2012, 19:53
LDS and Catholic. There are quite a few similarities. This is by no means an exhaustive list.

Both believe in a human priesthood separate from the laity
Both believe that the keys give them Apostolic authority
Both believe they confer this authority onward
Both have their own prophetic office
Both have end time beliefs specific to themselves
Both have dietary restrictions
Both keep the Ten Commandments in a modified form
Both have doctrines based on writings other than the Bible

BTW Jesus kept the Seventh-day Sabbath and looked forward to his second advent so He was a Seventh-day Adventist.

You can do the same with about anyone's faith.

But Jesus made and drank wine, so he wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist. What would happen if he walked in to your church on the Sabbath with enough wine and bread for everyone and said, lets talk? He wouldn't be crucified because we don't do that any more, but he would be arrested. Seems like you've come full circle.

rgregoryb
04-30-2012, 19:56
But Jesus made and drank wine, so he wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist. What would happen if he walked in to your church on the Sabbath with enough wine and bread for everyone and said, lets talk? He wouldn't be crucified because we don't do that any more, but he would be arrested. Seems like you've come full circle.

he'd eat some lamb at the passover also...not very SDA like

Vic Hays
04-30-2012, 21:46
But Jesus made and drank wine, so he wasn't a Seventh-day Adventist. What would happen if he walked in to your church on the Sabbath with enough wine and bread for everyone and said, lets talk? He wouldn't be crucified because we don't do that any more, but he would be arrested. Seems like you've come full circle.

I drink grape juice. No problem there.

juggy4711
04-30-2012, 22:15
Seventh -day Adventists use the Bible as the only rule of faith and practice.
LDS consider the Book of Mormon more relevant.

There are always counterfeits when the Lord is going forward with His plan. In this case it is the Spirit of prophecy that has been counterfeited.

Out of the 1800's came 3 counterfeits claiming direct inspiration. JW's, Christian Science, and Latter Day Saints. Only the Seventh-day Adventist Church believes that the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice...

I'm aware that SDA's "use the Bible as the only rule of faith and practice" and that the LDS "consider the book of Mormon more relevant". Which is why I described the LDS as more out of line with other mainstream Christian denominations.

However the Bible consists of the OT an the NT. The OT does not jive with the NT according to the descendants of those that wrote the OT. The era of prophets ended with Malachi IIRC and there was no special exception for some lady in the 1800s.

The best you can offer is that your Christian denomination somehow better understands the Jewish texts, likely originally written in a language you are unable to read or speak, better than they do. Not buying it. And unless you read/speak Aramaic your understanding of the NT is dependent on multiple translations. You can't even be certain what you are reading is accurate in translation or context.

There are at least 4 counterfeits from the 1800's, SDA included. And for future reference, quoting the Bible to in your eyes prove what the Bible states and/or what you think it means is just plain stupid.

NMPOPS
04-30-2012, 22:53
Why is Saturday the Seventh (Sabath) day? Wasn't the current calender made by the Romans? Most people generally think of Monday as the first day of the week.

Sent from my Ally

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 05:36
Why is Saturday the Seventh (Sabath) day? Wasn't the current calender made by the Romans? Most people generally think of Monday as the first day of the week.

Sent from my Ally

The calendar has not been changed so as to confuse the days of the week. We can be positive that our seventh day is the same day Jesus observed when He was here. Pope Gregory XIII did make a calendar change in 1582, but it did not interfere with the weekly cycle. Our present Gregorian calendar was named after him when he made that small change in 1582.

What did Pope Gregory do to the calendar? Before 1582 the Julian calendar had been in effect, instituted by Julius Ceasar about 46 B.C. and named after him. But the Julian calendar had calculated the length of the year as 365 1/4 days, and the year is actually eleven minutes less than 365 1/4 days. Those eleven minutes accumulated, and by 1582 the numbering of the calendar was ten days out of harmony with the solar system. Gregory simply dropped those ten days out of the numbering of the calendar. It was Thursday, October 4, 1582, and the next day, Friday, should have been October 5. But Gregory made it October 15 instead, dropping exactly ten days to bring the calendar back into harmony with the heavenly bodies.

Were the days of the week confused? No. Friday still followed Thursday, and Saturday still followed Friday. The same seventh day remained, and the weekly cycle was not disturbed in the least. When we keep the seventh day on Saturday, we are observing the same day Jesus kept, and He did it every week according to Luke 4:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Luke%204.16).

muscogee
05-01-2012, 07:59
I drink grape juice. No problem there.

Are you trying to say Jesus drank grape juice instead of wine? Careful now. You're getting into one of those situations where you will have to stop responding because you don't have an answer.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 09:48
Are you trying to say Jesus drank grape juice instead of wine? Careful now. You're getting into one of those situations where you will have to stop responding because you don't have an answer.

There were those in the Bible that were very close to God who did not drink any wine.

John the Baptist is a good one.

John was a messenger a reformer and forerunner of the coming of Christ. Adventists see themselves in this position. We are a continuation of the reformation.

I Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 19:11
There were those in the Bible that were very close to God who did not drink any wine.

John the Baptist is a good one.

John was a messenger a reformer and forerunner of the coming of Christ. Adventists see themselves in this position. We are a continuation of the reformation.

I Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

continuation of the reformation? SDA is an extension of the millerite baptist derailment . SDA has no relationship to Luther, Calvin or any part of the Reformation...

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 19:15
continuation of the reformation? SDA is an extension of the millerite baptist derailment . SDA has no relationship to Luther, Calvin or any part of the Reformation...

So, Baptists aren't part of the reformation? Miller was a Baptist.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 19:19
So, Baptists aren't part of the reformation? Miller was a Baptist.

no, baptists were not part of the reformation

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 19:24
no, baptists were not part of the reformation

So, Baptists aren't protestants? They are what? A 5th Column of Catholicism? I am pretty confident they are protestants, and therefore a part of the reformation movement. That was rather the point Vic made, SDA's are protestant reforormers.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 19:29
So, Baptists aren't protestants? They are what? A 5th Column of Catholicism? I am pretty confident they are protestants, and therefore a part of the reformation movement. That was rather the point Vic made, SDA's are protestant reforormers.

anabaptists came on the scene after the reformation and they aligned with Zwingli until they questioned infant baptism and they split and Zwingli condemned them... are they "reformers"? yes, were they part of the Reformation...no.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 19:35
from Wiki..hardly a scholarly source but quite succinct:

Baptist Historian Bruce Gourley outlines four main views of Baptist origins: (1) The modern scholarly consensus that the denomination traces its origin to the 17th century via the English Separatists, (2) the view that it was an outgrowth of Anabaptist traditions, (3) the perpetuity view which assumes that the Baptist faith and practice has existed since the time of Christ, and (4) the successionist view, or "Baptist successionism", which argues that Baptist churches actually existed in an unbroken chain since the time of Christ.[3]

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 20:38
We see ourselves as reformers and a forerunner like John the Baptist.

John was not aligned with any other group as far as I know.

Where does our authority come from?

Same place as John the Baptist.

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority do you these things? and who gave you this authority?
21:24 And Jesus answered and said to them, I also will ask you one thing, which if you tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
21:25 The baptism of John, from where was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say to us, Why did you not then believe him?
21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said to them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:06
John the baptizer.................not John the baptist

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 21:12
John the baptizer.................not John the baptist

That is where the term Baptist comes from.

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 21:12
...
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober,..

You do realize that a sip of wine at communion is not enough to cause intoxication and that one could do so and still be sober?

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:17
That is where the term Baptist comes from.

really? the modern term came from the dispute over infant baptism

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 21:18
You do realize that a sip of wine at communion is not enough to cause intoxication and that one could do so and still be sober?

Fermented wine does not represent Christ's blood.

Jesus was not to see corruption (fermentation). Fermentation also is symbolic of sin which was the reason for the unleavened bread at Passover. It doesn't really make sense to have unleavened bread and leavened grape juice does it?

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 21:20
really? the modern term came from the dispute over infant baptism

The word Baptism is in the name Baptist. Just as the word Seventh-Day, is in the name Seventh-Day Adventist. Baptists, believe, as we do, in Baptism by emersion as performed by John the Baptist and Jesus.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:27
The word Baptism is in the name Baptist. Just as the word Seventh-Day, is in the name Seventh-Day Adventist. Baptists, believe, as we do, in Baptism by emersion as performed by John the Baptist and Jesus.

so, immersion is essential?
and who did Jesus baptize?

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:29
Fermented wine does not represent Christ's blood.

Jesus was not to see corruption (fermentation). Fermentation also is symbolic of sin which was the reason for the unleavened bread at Passover. It doesn't really make sense to have unleavened bread and leavened grape juice does it?

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

so Jesus didn't pour or drink wine at the "last supper"?

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:32
John 4 1-2
1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 21:37
Fermented wine does not represent Christ's blood...

Neither does grape juice. Besides my point still stands. You used a verse mentioning sobriety. A sip of wine is not intoxicating and one can do so and remain sober.

It doesn't really make sense to have unleavened bread and leavened grape juice does it?..

Eating and/or drinking anything to represent the body or blood of anyone doesn't make sense as far as I am concerned. It comes across idolistic to me.

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 21:38
John 4 1-2
1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples),

John 3:22-23, "<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26143AH))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>Now John <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26144AI))'></sup> also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized."

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:39
John 3:22-23, "<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26143AH))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>Now John <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26144AI))'></sup> also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized."

I knew you would put up this verse.....so, which is the truth?

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:41
same gospel, same author but 2 different stories............hmmm curious

Kingarthurhk
05-01-2012, 21:44
same gospel, same author but 2 different stories............hmmm curious

Perhaps seperate events or occassions.

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 21:48
Perhaps seperate events or occassions.

Convenient.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:52
Convenient.

isn't it

muscogee
05-01-2012, 23:13
There were those in the Bible that were very close to God who did not drink any wine.

John the Baptist is a good one.

John was a messenger a reformer and forerunner of the coming of Christ. Adventists see themselves in this position. We are a continuation of the reformation.

I Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

You're trying to change to subject from drinking wine to being sober. One can drink wine and be sober. I have done it numerous times. The issue is Jesus and the disciples drank wine which your church condemns.

Don't dodge the issue and try to say they didn't drink un-fermented grape juice. How did Jesus and the Disciples keep grape juice they drank from turning into wine? The process for doing that wasn't invented until 1869.

http://www.welchs.com/company/company_history.html

http://mcclurgmuseum.org/blog/tag/thomas-bramwell-welch/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch

http://www.nndb.com/people/974/000165479/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Thomas-Bramwell-Welch/102905569765161

Jesus and the Disciples drank wine, just like the Scriptures say they did. That means they wouldn't be welcome in your church. It's illogical for a Christian church to condemn the behavior of Jesus. You can't get condemnation of moderate use of wine from "Scripture alone".

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 23:23
...The process for doing that wasn't invented until 1869...

His belief system existed 6 years prior to that. I'm fairly certain what's her name figured out grape juice 6 years ahead of time just so he could remain consistent.

muscogee
05-01-2012, 23:23
Jesus was not to see corruption (fermentation). Fermentation also is symbolic of sin which was the reason for the unleavened bread at Passover. It doesn't really make sense to have unleavened bread and leavened grape juice does it?

Quit dancing around. Are you saying Jesus and the Disciples drank grape juice instead of wine?

Vic Hays
05-02-2012, 09:30
Quit dancing around. Are you saying Jesus and the Disciples drank grape juice instead of wine?

What is New Wine?
Why would new wine destroy old wine bottles? Because it ferments and the old bottles cannot take the pressure. New wine then must be fresh grape juice. Jesus called it the fruit of the vine.

Matthew 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink from now on of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’ kingdom.

muscogee
05-02-2012, 13:06
What is New Wine?
Why would new wine destroy old wine bottles? Because it ferments and the old bottles cannot take the pressure. New wine then must be fresh grape juice. Jesus called it the fruit of the vine.

Matthew 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink from now on of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’ kingdom.

It takes 1 to 2 weeks for sugar to ferment. They had to drink it before that. If it was unfermented how did the people who drank it get drunk? Look at the day of Pentecost. People accused Peter et al of being drunk. Peter did not say, we don't drink wine. He said, it's only 9:00 in the morning. Why did the Pharisees accuse Jesus of being a winebibber (a wino)? Jesus didn't say, "I don't drink wine". His answer was, "So What?" Vic, your argument is real weak. The truth is, you wouldn't allow someone like Jesus in your church.

Vic Hays
05-02-2012, 14:02
It takes 1 to 2 weeks for sugar to ferment. They had to drink it before that. If it was unfermented how did the people who drank it get drunk? Look at the day of Pentecost. People accused Peter et al of being drunk. Peter did not say, we don't drink wine. He said, it's only 9:00 in the morning. Why did the Pharisees accuse Jesus of being a winebibber (a wino)? Jesus didn't say, "I don't drink wine". His answer was, "So What?" Vic, your argument is real weak. The truth is, you wouldn't allow someone like Jesus in your church.

It wouldn't matter what my lifestyle is you would find fault. Things haven't changed much.

Matthew 11:16 “But what will I compare this generation to? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces, who call to their companions
11:17 and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you didn't dance. We mourned for you, and you didn't lament.’
11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”

rgregoryb
05-02-2012, 14:07
It wouldn't matter what my lifestyle is you would find fault. Things haven't changed much.



no one would have a problem with your lifestyle except for the erroneous claim it is backed by scripture...

quick question Vic, is the SDA church the only true church, and the rest are facing annihilation ?

muscogee
05-02-2012, 15:41
It wouldn't matter what my lifestyle is you would find fault. Things haven't changed much.

Matthew 11:16 “But what will I compare this generation to? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces, who call to their companions
11:17 and say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you didn't dance. We mourned for you, and you didn't lament.’
11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”


Didn't I just mention that quote? Jesus answered, "So what?" He didn't say, "I don't drink fermented wine".

It's not your lifestyle. It's your rewriting the Bible to fit your lifestyle and claiming that what you believe is God's will that bothers me. Of course all Christians do that. That's one of the reasons I'm not one.

Vic Hays
05-02-2012, 16:45
no one would have a problem with your lifestyle except for the erroneous claim it is backed by scripture...

quick question Vic, is the SDA church the only true church, and the rest are facing annihilation ?

John the Baptist drank no wine. Isn't that backed by scripture?

I have never made the claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the only true church. It is just the best that I have found.

Every person who is not exercising faith and following Jesus is facing annihilation. Salvation is individual not corporate.

Kingarthurhk
05-02-2012, 17:07
no one would have a problem with your lifestyle except for the erroneous claim it is backed by scripture...

quick question Vic, is the SDA church the only true church, and the rest are facing annihilation ?

Please point out in scripture, where you are finding fault.

muscogee
05-02-2012, 19:58
John the Baptist drank no wine. Isn't that backed by scripture?

Why is that relevant? Do you follow John the Baptist or Jesus?

juggy4711
05-02-2012, 20:33
John the Baptist drank no wine. Isn't that backed by scripture?

I have never made the claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the only true church. It is just the best that I have found.

Every person who is not exercising faith and following Jesus is facing annihilation. Salvation is individual not corporate.

If it's not the only true Christian church are you actively seeking the one that is?

If by annihilation you mean death than yes we all face that. And despite your belief otherwise so do you. As for your "new wine" speculation I missed the reference to broken wine bottles. :dunno:

It wouldn't matter what my lifestyle is you would find fault. Things haven't changed much...

So you're the judge of others now? I don't think that is very Christ like.

Foxterriermom
05-02-2012, 20:41
John did not drink because he had taken the Nazarite vow.

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 10:53
John did not drink because he had taken the Nazarite vow.

Hmm. Must be something to being a messenger/reformer and keeping a clear head?

muscogee
05-03-2012, 14:06
John did not drink because he had taken the Nazarite vow.

Any evidence for that? A Nazarene and a Nazarite are not the same thing.

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 16:57
If it's not the only true Christian church are you actively seeking the one that is?

If by annihilation you mean death than yes we all face that. And despite your belief otherwise so do you. As for your "new wine" speculation I missed the reference to broken wine bottles. :dunno:

So you're the judge of others now? I don't think that is very Christ like.

1. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church.
The Remnant Church is the one that is like the original church.
If you have been following the thread on the Sabbath you find that very few people keep that one of the Ten Commandments. The Remnant Church keeps all of the Commandments and also has the Spirit of Prophecy.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

the LDS use this very verse to prove that they are the remnant church, but they don't keep the Commandments.

Oh Yea, Here is the verse that defines the testimony of Jesus Christ as the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

2. The broken wine bottles refers to the statement that Jesus made about the Jews that could not make the switch from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

3. Muscoge has continually shown his dissatisfaction with anything religiopus. I was not judging him as mucha s predicting how he would react. Being a Christian does not mean abandoning all reason.

rgregoryb
05-03-2012, 18:06
1. The Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church.
The Remnant Church is the one that is like the original church.
.

Like the one in Acts?....so, you own nothing and all your property is held in common with the other members , sold and distributed as needed?

Cool, but I bet not.

juggy4711
05-03-2012, 21:35
...If you have been following the thread on the Sabbath you find that very few people keep that one of the Ten Commandments. The Remnant Church keeps all of the Commandments and also has the Spirit of Prophecy...

Neither do SDA. The 1st Commandment is violated by Jesus as understood by the descendants of those that authored it. No other Gods. No sons, no holy spirits. What is your OT evidence that is not the case. Under what pretense do you deem your understanding of it wrong without reference to the NT. And can you read/speak and understand the OT in the original languages it was written?

2. The broken wine bottles refers to the statement that Jesus made about the Jews that could not make the switch from the Old Testament to the New Testament.

Still not getting that. Is the broken wine bottle thing a passage from the NT or something you came up with?

3. Muscoge has continually shown his dissatisfaction with anything religiopus. I was not judging him as much as predicting how he would react. Being a Christian does not mean abandoning all reason.

Correct or not that prediction is a judgment. What is it you find so appealing about being persecuted and what about that makes you feel so vindicated?

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 23:35
Neither do SDA. The 1st Commandment is violated by Jesus as understood by the descendants of those that authored it. No other Gods. No sons, no holy spirits. What is your OT evidence that is not the case. Under what pretense do you deem your understanding of it wrong without reference to the NT. And can you read/speak and understand the OT in the original languages it was written?



Still not getting that. Is the broken wine bottle thing a passage from the NT or something you came up with?



1. God promised that the savior would be a descendant from Eve.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem and yet He is from everlasting.

Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall he come forth to me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

God's hands and feet would be pierced:

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

He will have those scars in the New Kingdom of God:

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say to him, What are these wounds in your hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

He would bear our infirmities:

53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

He would be killed as an offering for sin and then resurrected:

53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

BTW you were going to check on Haggai and tell me why the second temple would be more glorious than the first and who the desire of all nations was. And now that temple is gone.

The Jews were not able to accept the Messiah as a nation that is why the remark new wine in old wine skins:

Mark 2:22 And no man puts new wine into old bottles: else the new wine does burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

muscogee
05-04-2012, 06:22
3. Muscoge has continually shown his dissatisfaction with anything religiopus. I was not judging him as mucha s predicting how he would react. Being a Christian does not mean abandoning all reason.

Do you have any evidenced that Jesus was as Nazarite? You continue to make illogical statements then run hide when asked to defend them.

muscogee
05-04-2012, 06:29
1. God promised that the savior would be a descendant from Eve.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Since we're all supposedly descended from Eve, how does that make Jesus different from anyone else? Your quote says nothing about Jesus. has nothing to do with your statement.

I know your kind. I was raised by your kind. I used to be one of your kind. We decide what we want the Bible to say and then make it say that. That's the highest form of vanity because your opinion becomes the will of God. If anyone disagrees with you, they're disagreeing with God.

Vic Hays
05-04-2012, 14:28
Since we're all supposedly descended from Eve, how does that make Jesus different from anyone else? Your quote says nothing about Jesus. has nothing to do with your statement.

I know your kind. I was raised by your kind. I used to be one of your kind. We decide what we want the Bible to say and then make it say that. That's the highest form of vanity because your opinion becomes the will of God. If anyone disagrees with you, they're disagreeing with God.

You have a right to disagree. :upeyes:

Mister_Beefy
05-04-2012, 19:03
I know your kind. I was raised by your kind. I used to be one of your kind. We decide what we want the Bible to say and then make it say that. That's the highest form of vanity because your opinion becomes the will of God. If anyone disagrees with you, they're disagreeing with God.

and thus the reason for the Book of Mormon.

just pointing it out.... I know you don't believe in anything, so don't argue with me. I'm not trying to change your mind (only you can do that) and I'm not trying to prove anything (like vic is) because it can't be proven.


:wavey:

juggy4711
05-04-2012, 20:13
...BTW you were going to check on Haggai and tell me why the second temple would be more glorious than the first and who the desire of all nations was. And now that temple is gone.

Still waiting on a response from my misguided Jewish source. Sometimes real life interferes with internet debate.

The Jews were not able to accept the Messiah as a nation that is why the remark new wine in old wine skins:

Mark 2:22 And no man puts new wine into old bottles: else the new wine does burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

Let me make sure I understand this. New wine, which is just freshly squeezed grape juice, will break old wine bottles, which contained actual wine because the old bottles where stressed from the gasses given off by wine?

Kingarthurhk
05-04-2012, 21:31
Still waiting on a response from my misguided Jewish source. Sometimes real life interferes with internet debate.



Let me make sure I understand this. New wine, which is just freshly squeezed grape juice, will break old wine bottles, which contained actual wine because the old bottles where stressed from the gasses given off by wine?

Mark 2:21-22, "<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

Vic Hays
05-06-2012, 08:50
Let me make sure I understand this. New wine, which is just freshly squeezed grape juice, will break old wine bottles, which contained actual wine because the old bottles where stressed from the gasses given off by wine?

The bottles were not made of glass. They were made of animal skins which becomes brittle and hard with age. It makes sense that New Wine would put some pressure on them as it fermented.

Basically the proverb is about the inertia to change. The majority of Jews in Jesus day were comfortable with the status quot. It certainly goes with your sig line which is almost a paraphrase from the Gospel of John.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

"