improvised defenses [Archive] - Glock Talk

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nightwolf1974
04-30-2012, 18:35
First, I DO NOT condone the show Doomsday Preppers showing "Mr. Wayne" building and using pipebombs on TV!! That gives preppers like us a bad name; not only with a parnoid government, but with people who don't understand us to begin with.

NOW..............

One of my many intended defenses is blackpowder muzzleloading canons that I can build. Loaded with shot, chain, or nails they can really kick butt. And there is no federal offense in building, owning, and firing these types of canons.

Any other thoughts?

nightwolf1974
05-01-2012, 13:39
all these looks and no comments?

DoctaGlockta
05-01-2012, 13:54
IMO this thread is walking a fine line mate.

MadMonkey
05-01-2012, 14:18
Any other thoughts?

Yes.


:rofl:

cyrsequipment
05-01-2012, 14:25
:upeyes:

kirgi08
05-01-2012, 14:56
Why.'08. :dunno:

beatcop
05-01-2012, 19:25
Best not to mess with stuff that can rip a limb off in shtf...prob no ambulance coming.

JimBianchi
05-01-2012, 20:13
I hav had alot too drinc. i should refrain for posting here,

But anyone who get information about prepping from THe Discovery Channel should seriously look at re-evaluating their plan.

TangoFoxtrot
05-02-2012, 04:24
You best know what your doing?

FL Airedale
05-02-2012, 05:49
My best defensive weapon is one I got from a UFO that crashed in the woods nearby. Since this type of weaponry doesn't exist, as far as lawmakers know, they haven't passed any laws against it.

And just to be clear, I know nothing about that 80 foot crater in my back yard.

jason10mm
05-02-2012, 08:11
Given my own youthful experimentation with gunpowder, confined spaces, and projectiles, I think the feasibility of any improvised "cannon" is highly suspect and is much more likely to KABOOM and kill the shooter than hit anyone down range. Why use a cannon when aimed rifle fire is available?

quake
05-02-2012, 08:29
...Why use a cannon when aimed rifle fire is available?

Not to speak for the OP, but based on the loading of nails & such, I suspect the idea is more like a fugasse (fougasse?) rather than genuine cannon fire. Don't recommend it, but that's just me.

As for improvised defenses in general, I some rare circumstances I can see a benefit, but more in things geared toward limiting access, rather than things that cause damage. Barricades, things like that; not so much improvised 'weapons' as strictly barriers/defenses.

mac66
05-02-2012, 08:48
Kind of hard to think of a situation in modern times where one would have the time or inclination to use a muzzle loading cannon during times of emergencies.

It seems to me that if things get so bad you need a cannon, you've already lost or you should have left the area a long time before.

nightwolf1974
05-02-2012, 15:27
i was just asking a theroretical (sp?) question. LIKE I SAID, I DON'T CONDONE ILLEGAL THINGS!!!!

TactiCool
05-02-2012, 16:06
Personally, I think that a prepper who is planning on establishing a static, defensible location would be better served with quickly deployable, passive defenses like hesco bastions and concertina.

But black powder cannons...


...Not unless you've got a peg leg!


:rofl:

PaulMason
05-02-2012, 16:22
One of my many intended defenses is blackpowder muzzleloading canons that I can build. Loaded with shot, chain, or nails they can really kick butt. And there is no federal offense in building, owning, and firing these types of canons.

Any other thoughts?

I saw that on Star Trek also. If, I remember correctly, the Enterprise and an alien craft were about to shoot each other. So the aliens who lived on a nearby planet beamed Kirk and the other captain to the planet to fight it out. Kirk developed your canon and stunned the other captain. But, Kirk refused to kill the other captain and save everyone.

Maybe you could develop a fazer?

DoctaGlockta
05-02-2012, 18:06
Personally, I think that a prepper who is planning on establishing a static, defensible location would be better served with quickly deployable, passive defenses like hesco bastions and concertina.

But black powder cannons...


...Not unless you've got a peg leg!


:rofl:
http://inside-sonoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/pirate400w.jpg

We don't talk nearly enough about Pirates here IMO. Thanks :wavey:

porschedog
05-02-2012, 19:05
Arghhhhhhh, pirates be very cool, matey

wildcat455
05-02-2012, 20:42
LMFAO!!!

Welcome to Glocktalk, nightwolf1974.

It's kinda like the real world, where people KICK YOU IN THE BALLS FOR STUPIDITY.

Please keep in mind, "The nail that is sticking up, gets HAMMERED down."

I think it was someone Japanese that said it first... wish I could Cite it for you properly...

Anyway, I would like to cite some... "flaws" in your logic.

Here goes...

You don't condone "pipe bombs" because they are illegal...

You DO condone a manufactured CANNON... which I can neither confirm or deny is legal in your state, mine, or my country... Let's just say here legalities aside, that I personally would strongly advise you AGAINST building such a device, much less ASKING ABOUT IT ON THE INTERNET!

EVEN if "In your mind, it is legal to do so".

Sometimes, "outside the box" thinking... Well it needs to remain "outside the box".

There. I said it. I hope for your sake you get it...

Tell me... How old are you??

Never mind. I just realized I don't care. STUPID should KILL.. Or at LEAST HURT real BAD!


Darwin must be asleep...

Good day sir!

G29Reload
05-02-2012, 23:13
I just saw that DP show the other night…the Mr Wayne guy thing was stunning…he manufactured an illegal explosive device and set it off on tv…HTF did he not have a case of ATF agents crawling up his a@#?

I know he didn't identify himself, but I can't believe the Discovery channel didn't get a subpoena on their desk…holy crap…

I mean, he's not a terrorist or anything, but that was a felony, 10 years easy.

But I hope he gets away with it.

TactiCool
05-02-2012, 23:34
Darwin must be asleep...




Oh don't worry, Murphy's got his back. :whistling:

TangoFoxtrot
05-03-2012, 04:46
I just saw that DP show the other night…the Mr Wayne guy thing was stunning…he manufactured an illegal explosive device and set it off on tv…HTF did he not have a case of ATF agents crawling up his a@#?

I know he didn't identify himself, but I can't believe the Discovery channel didn't get a subpoena on their desk…holy crap…

I mean, he's not a terrorist or anything, but that was a felony, 10 years easy.

But I hope he gets away with it.

I wonder if he will get any calls from the ATF?:whistling:

cyrsequipment
05-03-2012, 05:14
Since this thread doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon, I do have a couple questions.

1. How do you figure a cannon is a better defensive weapon than say, a shotgun? Longuns are easier to aim and they reload a HECK of a lot faster.
I'm not seeing the logic, unless...

2. Are you actually thinking of loading the cannon and setting it up with some sort of tripwire, like a claymore? THAT is a bad idea. Not only is setting traps like that highly dangerous to anyone or anything (including yourself), they aren't too awful reliable... Not to mention VERY illegal.

I am not sure of your exact intent in starting this thread, but I'm sure that you have not gotten the responses you were expecting. If your intent was benign, please take a few moments and explain what you REALLY meant, because now I'm kinda curious, kinda like I'm curious about watching a trainwreck.

jason10mm
05-03-2012, 07:42
To digress a bit, one thing that seems like it would be useful for a (very) long term SHTF situation would be black powder weapons. You can easily cast your own bullets (assuming you stockpiled lead and molds) and even black powder can be manufactured with a relatively low level of support technology, though the efficacy might suffer compared to modern manufacture. Yet I rarely, if ever, see a prepper showing off their Hawkins rifle or Dragoon revolver. Just not sexy enough?

If you had a legal proper cannon then in a world where rifle fire is rare you might be at an advantage. But IIRC on the 19th century battlefield even cannon had progressed to explosive shells, the utility of using it as a giant shotgun is pretty low unless you are talking about the massive types drawn by horse or mounted on a ship. And even then canister shot (like shotgun shells) are carefully packed to ensure optimal dispersal, just ramming a bunch of loose crap down the barrel is gonna be just a step above throwing it at people.

Damn, now I'm kinda interested in getting one of those scaled down mock cannons to use as a salute gun....

quake
05-03-2012, 08:43
...one thing that seems like it would be useful for a (very) long term SHTF situation would be black powder weapons. You can easily cast your own bullets (assuming you stockpiled lead and molds) and even black powder can be manufactured with a relatively low level of support technology, though the efficacy might suffer compared to modern manufacture. Yet I rarely, if ever, see a prepper showing off their Hawkins rifle or Dragoon revolver. Just not sexy enough?...
I confess I've never attempted making black powder, but from folks I've spoken with, it's not as simple as it would seem. Only three ingredients iirc (charcoal, saltpeter, sulphur), but supposedly the ratios, fineness of the grind, and other things make it pretty temperamental; and anything short of near-perfect is supposedly very poor-performing. Again, never tried it myself, but heard it enough times to not bother with it. Wouldn't at all mind finding out I was wrong.

Beyond that, even in a very long-term shtf (more like teotwawki - Daniel Boone, Postman, Book of Eli style situation) a simple single-shot cartridge firearm would offer a lot of benefits. Simplicity, bullet cast-ability from junk lead (if we're talking about a gun in a suitable caliber), etc.

Still have the issue of primers & powder, but we have that anyway with the Hawkins or Dragoon, as they need percussion caps. A flintlock or matchlock would seem to be the last-ditch (most primitive) firearm approach, but not something I'm going to pursue.

A single ammo can with $200 worth of primers and powder, and a bullet mold would let me feed a single-shot for (imo) more than a lifetime's worth of anything that a blackpowder gun would probably offer. To each his own, and not knocking BP inherently. I used to have a TC Hawken .50, a CVA kentucky rifle in .45 caliber and several BP handguns (.36 & .44 revolvers both and a .45 single-shot), but I went so long without using them that I gradually got away from them and don't even own any anymore. Give me one of my break-open single-shots and I'm much happier than I ever was with the blackpowder rifles.

Toyman
05-03-2012, 09:07
I just saw that DP show the other night…the Mr Wayne guy thing was stunning…he manufactured an illegal explosive device and set it off on tv…HTF did he not have a case of ATF agents crawling up his a@#?

I know he didn't identify himself, but I can't believe the Discovery channel didn't get a subpoena on their desk…holy crap…

I mean, he's not a terrorist or anything, but that was a felony, 10 years easy.

But I hope he gets away with it.

I was wondering if maybe they get away with it under an umbrella of film crew special effects explosives license?

Dexters
05-03-2012, 10:41
I confess I've never attempted making black powder, but from folks I've spoken with, it's not as simple as it would seem.

It looks like making the saltpeter is difficult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_nitrate

wjv
05-03-2012, 11:49
"Look around you– can you construct some sort of rudimentary lathe?"

mac66
05-03-2012, 12:06
Black powder cannons are considered to be muzzle loaders and are legal. I have friends that have homemade ones that shoot golf balls, beer/pop cans full of cement and some that shoot bowling balls. They are not hard to make and nearly any machine shop can drill out a piece of metal or weld together a pipe barrel. Heck, the Mythbusters made a cannon out of a wood log. They've made them out of gas cylinders. Lots of youtube videos on home made cannons. Black power is increasingly hard to get but black powder substitute like Pyrodex can be found anywhere.

I am not criticizing the idea of a cannon, or the legality of them. My thoughts center around the practicality or necessity of a black powder cannon in a self defense or SHTF situation.

Might be cheaper and more efficient to come up with some type of grenade launcher or maybe an air cannon.

arclight610
05-03-2012, 12:09
Your defenses will be useless, because my gang has cannons of its own. I've even recruited a couple of artillery officers that served in the Civil War to help me command them efficiently.

pugman
05-04-2012, 11:20
My MIL's boyfriend's buddy has a 4th of July party every year where amongst the huge bonfire, party goers, those little candle powered hot air ballons they send up he fires off his replicas.

He has a clear field of fire extending 200 yards into the woods he owns.

Practical things I've noticed when I attend the party and they fire those things off.

First...they are really cool. This said.

I can only hope you aren't intending on firing these from a home...loud is an understatement.

Cannon fire is only useful when supported by other cannons or defended by other people. Even during a "drill" during the party they are lucky to get a shot off every 2-3 minutes. Outside or down the road enemies can move a heck of a lot in 3 minutes. Many civil war reenacters say a shot every 1:40-2:30 is difficult and hardly safe under stress. And you aren't packing a ball but nails and such...might as well say a shot ever 4-5 minutes.

Weight: how are you going to move this?

Unless you are aiming at a group of rioters good luck hitting a barn.

smokeross
05-04-2012, 12:23
I was wondering if maybe they get away with it under an umbrella of film crew special effects explosives license?
Just look at Axmen and Shelby blasting off his .44 all the time, and his cousin shooting an arrow through the cabin of the boat. Anyone arrested? Nope.

Mr.Pliskin
05-04-2012, 15:43
"Look around you– can you construct some sort of rudimentary lathe?"
GORIGNAK
GORIGNAK
GORIGNAK


The guy in the show screwed two caps on a pipe with some wires sticking through. Then they went out and put some tannternite behind the target and had someone shoot it, his son I believe. Also their was the yellow smoke.

Akita
05-04-2012, 18:52
Is this the kind of thing you are asking about?

http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm

It seems to work for this guy.

vram74
05-05-2012, 08:49
My best defensive weapon is one I got from a UFO that crashed in the woods nearby. Since this type of weaponry doesn't exist, as far as lawmakers know, they haven't passed any laws against it.

And just to be clear, I know nothing about that 80 foot crater in my back yard.
Greatest American Hero Intro - YouTube

eracer
05-05-2012, 09:25
I saw that on Star Trek also. If, I remember correctly, the Enterprise and an alien craft were about to shoot each other. So the aliens who lived on a nearby planet beamed Kirk and the other captain to the planet to fight it out. Kirk developed your canon and stunned the other captain. But, Kirk refused to kill the other captain and save everyone.

Maybe you could develop a fazer?I knew enough about chemistry at the age of 10 to laugh when Kirk dumped chunks of coal in with the sulfur and the coarse-ground saltpeter, shook it all together in the bamboo tube, added diamonds, and fired it at the Gorn.

Yeah, I could accept warp drive, transporters, and green-skinned Orion slave girls (actually, at 10 I wished for a green-skinned Orion slave girl of my very own) but had a hard time with the obvious errors in chemistry.

Dexters
05-05-2012, 10:46
I knew enough about chemistry at the age of 10 to laugh when Kirk dumped chunks of coal in with the sulfur and the coarse-ground saltpeter, shook it all together in the bamboo tube, added diamonds, and fired it at the Gorn.

Yeah, I could accept warp drive, transporters, and green-skinned Orion slave girls (actually, at 10 I wished for a green-skinned Orion slave girl of my very own) but had a hard time with the obvious errors in chemistry.

Same here.

Now, with the last Star Trek movie they lost me with transporting at warp speed (ship to ship - both going at warp speed). That is just nuts. Think about it. Why do you need space ships? Just stay at home and transport people at multiple times the speed of light across the universe.

nightwolf1974
05-05-2012, 19:07
Black powder cannons are considered to be muzzle loaders and are legal. I have friends that have homemade ones that shoot golf balls, beer/pop cans full of cement and some that shoot bowling balls. They are not hard to make and nearly any machine shop can drill out a piece of metal or weld together a pipe barrel. Heck, the Mythbusters made a cannon out of a wood log. They've made them out of gas cylinders. Lots of youtube videos on home made cannons. Black power is increasingly hard to get but black powder substitute like Pyrodex can be found anywhere.

I am not criticizing the idea of a cannon, or the legality of them. My thoughts center around the practicality or necessity of a black powder cannon in a self defense or SHTF situation.

Might be cheaper and more efficient to come up with some type of grenade launcher or maybe an air cannon.

Like I said, I don't like the bomb thing. My canons are fuse fired, and NOT set up like a claymore or set gun(both illegal). They would be used only to support riflefire(in therory). Already have 2x working models (2.5" & 1"). And I do know enough about welding and metal stress to NOT blow myself up, I run like hell after lighting the fuse anyway. ANY edge in a defensive role is good, even if it is "out of the box"!

Haldor
05-13-2012, 18:44
How about a volley gun? Covers an area (sort of like a claymore). Not as likely to blow yourself up.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4629074517_5b670cdc2c.jpg

The civil war version used a cartridge. Actually there is nothing to stop you from creating a version that fires a modern cartridge. Or would this constitute a machine gun?

If you stick to black powder and muzzle loaded then ATF should not be interested in it. I could see mounting a bunch of black powder muzzle loader barrels to a common stock and coming up with a common ignition system. I imagine a bunch of .58 cal balls fired all at once in the same general direction would make a pretty good imitation of a cannon.

- Edit -

The Nordenfelt gun is precisely what I was fumbling for. I have no idea what the ATF would make of one that used modern metallic cartridges, but it seems like it might fall under the Gatling exception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordenfelt_gun

Haldor
05-13-2012, 18:51
I wonder if it would be possible to make a firing mechanism that fired a bunch of .22 LR rounds sequentially (as you turned a crank). The idea is you have a block of steel that has a bunch of .22 LR chambered holes in it with some kind of a roller based system that avoided the illegal machine gun issue (the same way a gatling gun does). I could imagine one with say 50 rounds of ammo in it mounted on a stand and you turn a crank to rapidly fire off all 50 rounds (but one at a time).It would sort of look like an overgrown pepper box.

- Edit -

I see something like this already exists. Another form of a volley gun. In this particular one all barrels fired from a single cap.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/jpg/vandenburgh_front_back.jpg

nightwolf1974
05-15-2012, 17:52
How about a volley gun? Covers an area (sort of like a claymore). Not as likely to blow yourself up.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4010/4629074517_5b670cdc2c.jpg

The civil war version used a cartridge. Actually there is nothing to stop you from creating a version that fires a modern cartridge. Or would this constitute a machine gun?

If you stick to black powder and muzzle loaded then ATF should not be interested in it. I could see mounting a bunch of black powder muzzle loader barrels to a common stock and coming up with a common ignition system. I imagine a bunch of .58 cal balls fired all at once in the same general direction would make a pretty good imitation of a cannon.

- Edit -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordenfelt_gun

I like that idea, maybe i could make something like this in a muzzleloading application. That would be really cool in a M/L shotgun version, lol! Hmmm.....

Haldor
05-15-2012, 18:49
I like that idea, maybe i could make something like this in a muzzleloading application. That would be really cool in a M/L shotgun version, lol! Hmmm.....

No kidding, a 12 gauge volley gun loaded with 00 buck would be pretty darn intimidating.

Woofie
05-21-2012, 16:31
I wonder if it would be possible to make a firing mechanism that fired a bunch of .22 LR rounds sequentially (as you turned a crank). The idea is you have a block of steel that has a bunch of .22 LR chambered holes in it with some kind of a roller based system that avoided the illegal machine gun issue (the same way a gatling gun does). I could imagine one with say 50 rounds of ammo in it mounted on a stand and you turn a crank to rapidly fire off all 50 rounds (but one at a time).It would sort of look like an overgrown pepper box.

- Edit -

I see something like this already exists. Another form of a volley gun. In this particular one all barrels fired from a single cap.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/jpg/vandenburgh_front_back.jpg

http://youtu.be/undxUEMKR18