Question Regarding the FBI HRT 1911 Contract [Archive] - Glock Talk

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tsmo1066
05-01-2012, 10:50
I was talking with a friend of mine the other day about the Springfield Armory "Professional" model and we got into a discussion around the FBI contract itself and the different models that were tested before the FBI awarded that contract to Springfield.

My recollection was that the field of competition originally included Les Baer, Ed Brown, Springfield Armory and Wilson Combat. If I recall correctly, Les Baer washed out over some reliability issues during the endurance test, Wilson Combat washed out over the accuracy test when using the FBI's 230 grain Golden Sabres, and Ed Brown, although having technically passed the testing, washed out because he couldn't commit to producing the number of 1911s the FBI wanted when they announced they were going to increase their order over what was originally bid out.

Am I on target with that recollection? Any 1911 buffs here who remember, or can link, the story of how the testing for that contract went?

Baba Louie
05-01-2012, 12:16
I recall reading Walt Rausch's review of the PRO in a SWAT magazine back around 2001 or so. He did not name names of the unselected, just alluded to the success of SAI in all categories specified in the RFP.

There IS a mega "Official" Professional thread over at 1911forum in their SA forum you can search for... might have some info therein? I figure BAC and Quack might have the know if anyone does.

tsmo1066
05-01-2012, 12:37
Thanks for the info. I did some additional checking and the other company (besides Springfield) to pass the accuracy test was a two-man custom shop called "Pro Gun". I'm not sure now if Ed Brown even submitted a bid for the HRT contract.

TSAX
05-01-2012, 13:10
:popcorn:Waiting for Bac and Quack as well.







:50cal:

TxGun
05-01-2012, 13:17
This appears to be a pretty good summary of the process (not personally vouching for it's accuracy):

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/fbi_1911.htm

TSAX
05-01-2012, 15:02
Not my gun, just adding some pics to this thread



http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/vkl9/DSC05767.jpg





http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/vkl9/DSC05763.jpg



http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/vkl9/DSC05764.jpg



http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/vkl9/DSC05768.jpg


http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o205/vkl9/DSC05770.jpg











:50cal:

fnfalman
05-01-2012, 15:40
It's been so long ago that I vaguely recalled the whole shebang at all. Something about Springfield and Les Baer were the finalists and Springfield could meet the production needs...at least that's my adled memory recalls. I could be talking out of my wazoo. Like I usually do.

MajorD
05-02-2012, 08:44
I seem to recall that most of the small time semi custom guys passed all the tests but were unwilling to commit what would have to be 100% of several years of production exclusively to the FBI. I can't imagine any SA product (and some are pretty good) beating out my les baer for accuracy and reliability

Victoriagotagun
05-02-2012, 09:13
Here is an interesting article on the subject but I don't know how accurate it is.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/?tag=content;col1

MD357
05-02-2012, 10:58
Funny thing is that all of the names mentioned build an equal if not significantly better 1911 than the Springfield PRO, some for better prices and better wait times.

bigmac85
05-02-2012, 11:06
I used to make barrels for nowlin. Pretty cool stuff.

tsmo1066
05-02-2012, 11:50
Here is an interesting article on the subject but I don't know how accurate it is.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_144_24/ai_57886947/?tag=content;col1

Excellent read! Thanks for the link.

fnfalman
05-02-2012, 19:44
Excellent read! Thanks for the link.

Yep, memory started coming back. There were indeed two pistols for the FBI like the article said. The "plain jane" for the SWATees and the Les Baer for the HRT (weren't they called HRU back then?).

I remembered when Springfield won, there was a bunch of hubbub because it wasn't "American" and supposedly there were claims of favoritism. Pretty much the same stuff as the Beretta winning the XM9 trial.

jcal0820
06-19-2012, 07:11
I've been hearing a lot that many in HRT, and Operators in other 'special' organizations i.e. Special Ops community, are ditching their tricked out high $ 1911's, and relying on standard issued Glocks, especially in missions that involve getting down and dirty, which is pretty much any dirthole place in the world they tend to operate in. It comes down to reliability and durability in the most austere condition.

R0CKETMAN
06-19-2012, 08:58
I've been hearing a lot that many in HRT, and Operators in other 'special' organizations i.e. Special Ops community, are ditching their tricked out high $ 1911's, and relying on standard issued Glocks, especially in missions that involve getting down and dirty, which is pretty much any dirthole place in the world they tend to operate in. It comes down to reliability and durability in the most austere condition.

I've been hearing Elvis is alive:whistling: and I'm on a "mission to get down and dirty" with a chic at my gym:wavey:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8231/006rtv.jpg

skipsan
06-19-2012, 09:03
If anyone's looking for a bargain, there's a DEA Pro (rare) currently listed on GB for $14000 Buy It Now.

itstime
06-19-2012, 09:15
Funny thing is that all of the names mentioned build an equal if not significantly better 1911 than the Springfield PRO, some for better prices and better wait times.

But those others probably didn't want to commit to "contract pricing" for the volume they had to pump out. Would cut into their gravy.

silversport
06-19-2012, 10:04
I thought the Les Baer models were double stack frames too...

Bill

R0CKETMAN
06-19-2012, 12:37
I thought the Les Baer models were double stack frames too...

Bill

I saw one of the actual submitted pistols for sale and it was single. SRP

esh325
06-19-2012, 13:45
It seems like an incredibly irrational and wasteful spending of money for the FBI to chose such a pistol.

glock2740
06-19-2012, 14:42
It seems like an incredibly irrational and wasteful spending of money for the FBI to chose such a pistol.
Yeah. They should carry Glock 10mm's. Like the good Lord intended. :rofl:

silversport
06-19-2012, 17:26
Baer made some with Para double stack frames for HRT...I'm surprised no one in this group mentioned them earlier...

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/fbi_1911.htm

Bill

ca survivor
06-19-2012, 17:50
:popcorn:Waiting for Bac and Quack as well.







:50cal:
BAC ! QUACK ! help.....

R0CKETMAN
06-19-2012, 19:45
Baer made some with Para double stack frames for HRT...I'm surprised no one in this group mentioned them earlier...

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/fbi_1911.htm

Bill

Cool..didn't remember reading the SRPs were double

Rinspeed
06-19-2012, 20:31
Cool..didn't remember reading the SRPs were double



Baer won the first contract and the SRPs were built on Para frames. They had many issues related to the mags and the FBI cancelled the remaining balance of the order.

Glockdude1
06-19-2012, 20:51
If anyone's looking for a bargain, there's a DEA Pro (rare) currently listed on GB for $14000 Buy It Now.

Does Bac know????

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=292350968
http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/292350000/292350968/pix316559399.jpg

:supergrin:

seporith
06-19-2012, 22:17
This provides an idea of the "accuracy" vs 3" & 1 1/2" Baers and a coupe others. They are a great package. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236&highlight=thunder+west+shootout .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... ............................................ .................................................................................... .................................................................................................... Average Group; 230gr Federal FMJ Ammunition
Rank Pistol Group Size
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor: 0.854
2.Dan Wesson black Valor: 1.398
3.Springfield Armory Professional: 1.676
4.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special: 1.766
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special: 1.983
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded: 4.504

Average group; 200 gr H&G 68 lead SWC Ammunition
Rank Pistol Group Size
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor: 1.209
2.Springfield Armory Professional: 1.215
3.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special: 1.417
4.Dan Wesson black Valor: 1.623
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special: 1.915
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded: 2.223

Overall Average Of All Groups Fired With Both Ammo Types
Rank Pistol Group Size
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor 1.032
2.Springfield Professional 1.446
3.Dan Wesson black Valor 1.511
4.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special 1.592
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special 1.949
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded 3.364 ..................................................................... ..................................................................... Tightest group fired
Rank Pistol Group Size Ammunition type
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor 0.554 230gr Federal FMJ
2.Dan Wesson Black Valor 0.999 230gr Federal FMJ
3.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special 1.010 200gr lead SWC
4.Springfield Armory Professional 1.096 200gr lead SWC
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special 1.524 200gr lead SWC
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded model 1.943 200gr lead SWC

maestrogustav
06-20-2012, 15:23
This provides an idea of the "accuracy" vs 3" & 1 1/2" Baers and a coupe others. They are a great package. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236&highlight=thunder+west+shootout .................................................................................................... .................................................................................................... ............................................ .................................................................................... .................................................................................................... Average Group; 230gr Federal FMJ Ammunition
Rank Pistol Group Size
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor: 0.854
2.Dan Wesson black Valor: 1.398
3.Springfield Armory Professional: 1.676
4.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special: 1.766
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special: 1.983
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded: 4.504

Average group; 200 gr H&G 68 lead SWC Ammunition
Rank Pistol Group Size
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor: 1.209
2.Springfield Armory Professional: 1.215
3.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special: 1.417
4.Dan Wesson black Valor: 1.623
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special: 1.915
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded: 2.223

Overall Average Of All Groups Fired With Both Ammo Types
Rank Pistol Group Size
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor 1.032
2.Springfield Professional 1.446
3.Dan Wesson black Valor 1.511
4.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special 1.592
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special 1.949
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded 3.364 ..................................................................... ..................................................................... Tightest group fired
Rank Pistol Group Size Ammunition type
1.Severns Custom modified Dan Wesson Valor 0.554 230gr Federal FMJ
2.Dan Wesson Black Valor 0.999 230gr Federal FMJ
3.Baer 1.5 Guarantee Thunder Ranch Special 1.010 200gr lead SWC
4.Springfield Armory Professional 1.096 200gr lead SWC
5.Baer standard Thunder Ranch Special 1.524 200gr lead SWC
6.Springfield 9109LP Loaded model 1.943 200gr lead SWC


This seems to be a legitimate test; unfortunately it was conducted by Mr Severns himself.

iLift45's
06-20-2012, 19:04
Funny thing is that all of the names mentioned build an equal if not significantly better 1911 than the Springfield PRO, some for better prices and better wait times.

Yeah ok. I have a TRP Operator that went through the SACS and is one of the most accurate pistols I have ever shot. The FBI did well with their decision.

majette
06-20-2012, 20:06
while others may build for less and have less wait times have those gone through the same testing process that the springfield pro has and equal or best it? not saying others do not build great guns but until someone knocks the king of the hill off the pro remains on top.

i have shot many 1911's from budget to full custom. this is what i kept.

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/6458/pro7yd.jpg

GJ1981
06-20-2012, 20:17
Funny thing is that all of the names mentioned build an equal if not significantly better 1911 than the Springfield PRO


+1000

The Pro is WAY overrated IME...something I've found out the hard way.

Rinspeed
06-20-2012, 20:29
while others may build for less and have less wait times have those gone through the same testing process that the springfield pro has and equal or best it?




I've never seen a Kart end up looking like this. :dunno:




http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/Rinspeed/PROBarrel.jpg

tnhawk
06-21-2012, 05:14
The current wait time for a PRO is two years. Mine took 15 months and it was worth the wait. :supergrin:

samuse
06-21-2012, 20:35
[QUOTE=MajorD;18918109... I can't imagine any SA product (and some are pretty good) beating out my les baer for accuracy and reliability[/QUOTE]

Have you ever had a 100% Springfield Custom?

:cool: