How do you pick a god out of the tens of thousands of options? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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IndianaMatt
05-01-2012, 11:16
According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone.

Further, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and probably tens of thousands of smaller ones.

If there are so may lots to cast your eternal soul into, how does a person compelled to religion know their particular god or practice is the right one?

If one sect of Christianity considers the use of electricity a sinful vanity, while another has no problem with it, how do you tally the "god points"?

Seems like a pretty risky lottery to me, seeing as the price of the wrong choice is eternal damnation.

Bren
05-01-2012, 11:18
Best I can tell, whichever one your parents or significant other follow is almost certain to be "the one true religion.":rofl:

But, like you, I'd be interested in what religious people have to say.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 11:28
According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone.

Further, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and probably tens of thousands of smaller ones.

If there are so may lots to cast your eternal soul into, how does a person compelled to religion know their particular god or practice is the right one?

If one sect of Christianity considers the use of electricity a sinful vanity, while another has no problem with it, how do you tally the "god points"?

Seems like a pretty risky lottery to me, seeing as the price of the wrong choice is eternal damnation.
Are you asking sincerely, or are you trolling?

IndianaMatt
05-01-2012, 11:39
Are you asking sincerely, or are you trolling?

Sincerely.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 11:42
According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone.

Further, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and probably tens of thousands of smaller ones.

If there are so may lots to cast your eternal soul into, how does a person compelled to religion know their particular god or practice is the right one?

If one sect of Christianity considers the use of electricity a sinful vanity, while another has no problem with it, how do you tally the "god points"?

Seems like a pretty risky lottery to me, seeing as the price of the wrong choice is eternal damnation.

Actually it is fairly easy to pick a denomination out of Christianity.

There is only one God in Christianity so that narrows the search down to looking for which denomination is closest to God's revealed Truth.

The Bible is the Word of God passed down through the ages. God is able to protect His Word or He would not be God.

Out of the Bible there are only a couple of times that God wrote anything Himself so they must be pretty important.

God wrote the Ten Commandments Himself. Doesn't everyone believe in the Ten Commandments? Actually, No. There are many denominations that give lip service to them, but there are few that actually keep the Seventh-day Sabbath which is right in the heart of the Ten Commandments and points to the specific God of creation as His Sabbath day.

There are some groups that keep the Seventh-day Sabbath and neglect faith in Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins. Not a good choice to neglect the savior.

Now the Bible tells us itself by contrast which group is pleasing to God and which groups are lost.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Paul7
05-01-2012, 11:47
According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone.

Further, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and probably tens of thousands of smaller ones.

If there are so may lots to cast your eternal soul into, how does a person compelled to religion know their particular god or practice is the right one?

If one sect of Christianity considers the use of electricity a sinful vanity, while another has no problem with it, how do you tally the "god points"?

Seems like a pretty risky lottery to me, seeing as the price of the wrong choice is eternal damnation.

Most of those 38,000 Christian denominations agree on the essentials of the faith, as expressed in the creeds for instance. As far as non-essentials, I thought diversity was good?

You act like denomination A believes the other 37,999 to be going to hell, that is almost never true.

It is interesting how almost everyone all over the world believes in a god of some kind. Oh well, some people aren't interested in sex either.

IndianaMatt
05-01-2012, 11:48
Actually it is fairly easy to pick a denomination out of Christianity.

There is only one God in Christianity so that narrows the search down to looking for which denomination is closest to God's revealed Truth.

The Bible is the Word of God passed down through the ages. God is able to protect His Word or He would not be God.

Out of the Bible there are only a couple of times that God wrote anything Himself so they must be pretty important.

God wrote the Ten Commandments Himself. Doesn't everyone believe in the Ten Commandments? Actually, No. There are many denominations that give lip service to them, but there are few that actually keep the Seventh-day Sabbath which is right in the heart of the Ten Commandments and points to the specific God of creation as His Sabbath day.

There are some groups that keep the Seventh-day Sabbath and neglect faith in Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins. Not a good choice to neglect the savior.

Now the Bible tells us itself by contrast which group is pleasing to God and which groups are lost.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Okay. That is all well assuming the only contender is Christianity.

But why choose Christianity and not, say, Buddhism?

Paul7
05-01-2012, 11:49
Best I can tell, whichever one your parents or significant other follow is almost certain to be "the one true religion.":rofl:

My parents and wife were not raised in religious homes, all three are devout Christians today.

dbcooper
05-01-2012, 11:51
The major determining factor is geography

void *
05-01-2012, 11:51
You act like denomination A believes the other 37,999 to be going to hell, that is almost never true.

You've made a study of all 37,999 belief systems and noted which ones claim that there is an essential disagreement where the others are wrong enough to not be able to make it to heaven?

Or are you just claiming "that is almost never true" without really having a basis?

(Not that I would expect two sects that are very, very close to think the other would be going to hell, but in 40k denominations there's certainly got to be a sufficiently large difference that some of them will claim that sufficiently large groups of the rest, if not necessarily all, are wrong *enough*, if you get where I'm headed)

Paul7
05-01-2012, 11:52
Okay. That is all well assuming the only contender is Christianity.

But why choose Christianity and not, say, Buddhism?

The OP asked how do you choose a god, what god is involved in Buddhism?

Roering
05-01-2012, 11:53
According to the World Christian Encyclopedia, there are over 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone.

Further, there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and probably tens of thousands of smaller ones.

If there are so may lots to cast your eternal soul into, how does a person compelled to religion know their particular god or practice is the right one?

If one sect of Christianity considers the use of electricity a sinful vanity, while another has no problem with it, how do you tally the "god points"?

Seems like a pretty risky lottery to me, seeing as the price of the wrong choice is eternal damnation.

I went with the Church started by Christ Himself.
Jesus only started one Church.

Paul7
05-01-2012, 11:54
You've made a study of all 37,999 belief systems and noted which ones claim that there is an essential disagreement where the others are wrong enough to not be able to make it to heaven?

Or are you just claiming "that is almost never true" without really having a basis?

You tell me, how many of those denominations think everyone else is going to hell? Must be 15,000 or so if you're right. My statement is based on experience, I'm pretty familiar with the Christian world and don't see this attitude that atheists constantly overstate, you know, the myth that the Second Baptists think the First Baptists are going to hell, or the same attitude from the Missouri Synod Lutheran about the Wisconsin Synod.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 11:54
This seems appropriate.

What if you're wrong?

Bren
05-01-2012, 11:55
Actually it is fairly easy to pick a denomination out of Christianity.

I'm curious about how you even pick christianity to begin with.

The OP asked how do you choose a god, what god is involved in Buddhism?

Did you misunderstand the question, or are you ducking it?

I believe it is central to buddhism that there is no reason to believe in gods because there is no evidence that they exist. However, beyond saying "choose a god" in the title, the question is clearly intended to be, how did you choose this religion and no other and, right or wrong, buddhism is generally considered a religion.

IndianaMatt
05-01-2012, 11:57
This seems appropriate.

What if you're wrong? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPJQw-x-xho)

Love it! I think the "sheerest accident" language towards the end pretty much answers my original query.

Dawkins is great.

Paul7
05-01-2012, 11:58
I'm curious about how you even pick christianity to beging with.

Having a founder who fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead is a good start.

How did you pick your worldview to the exclusion of all others?

void *
05-01-2012, 12:00
You tell me, how many of those denominations think everyone else is going to hell?

Well, ok. I think you're probably right as far as "everyone else", as everyone else is a pretty high standard.

Now, how many of those 38,000 have sufficiently large theological disagreements with large portions of those other 37,999 groups that they think large portions of those other groups are wrong enough to not make it to heaven?

I suppose you could start with the largest divisions. How many Protestant denominations think that the Catholics are wrong enough to not make it, and do the Catholics think that in general if you're Protestant you don't make it?

I don't know the specific answer to that, but I do know that there are Protestant denominations that think the Catholic Church is actually a tool of satan or something along those lines.

dbcooper
05-01-2012, 12:03
Actually it is fairly easy to pick a denomination out of Christianity.

There is only one God in Christianity so that narrows the search down to looking for which denomination is closest to God's revealed Truth.

The Bible is the Word of God passed down through the ages. God is able to protect His Word or He would not be God.

Out of the Bible there are only a couple of times that God wrote anything Himself so they must be pretty important.

God wrote the Ten Commandments Himself. Doesn't everyone believe in the Ten Commandments? Actually, No. There are many denominations that give lip service to them, but there are few that actually keep the Seventh-day Sabbath which is right in the heart of the Ten Commandments and points to the specific God of creation as His Sabbath day.

There are some groups that keep the Seventh-day Sabbath and neglect faith in Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins. Not a good choice to neglect the savior.

Now the Bible tells us itself by contrast which group is pleasing to God and which groups are lost.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Yet had you been born in say... Saudi Arabia you would know that there is no God but God and Mohammed is his prophet, free to choose from one of those sects. It's geography.

IndianaMatt
05-01-2012, 12:04
Having a founder who fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead is a good start.

How did you pick your worldview to the exclusion of all others?

Well, I cannot speak for Mr. Bren. But my own worldview - agnosticism - professes only what I do not know. I do not know that miracles were performed or god killed his son only to be resurrected or whatever.

And you do not know these things either. You feel them to be true and you want them to be true, but you do not know them. You do not and you cannot know them because I do not and cannot know them. And you do not possess powers of intuition or perception that I do not.

In contrast, I can easily testify to what I do not know. And I am quite content with life remaining a mystery. Its just so much more interesting that way.

Its a humble view.

Bren
05-01-2012, 12:05
Having a founder who fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead is a good start.

How did you pick your worldview to the exclusion of all others?

You may be the king of circular reasoning, having used it in every response in the thread. You believe your religion is true because your religion says it's true, therefore you can believe it? was that 2 circles?:rofl:

I don't "pick" my world view - that's the differtence between us. What I believe is decided by what evidence I see. If I "picked" what to believe, I would be an irrational person.

Schabesbert
05-01-2012, 12:06
Love it! I think the "sheerest accident" language towards the end pretty much answers my original query.

Dawkins is great.
Yeah, and this post pretty much answers my earlier inquiry, which you answered untruthfully.

Billspider
05-01-2012, 12:07
Strange question to ask on a (GUN SITE)?

void *
05-01-2012, 12:09
Strange question to ask on a (GUN SITE)?

In a subforum on that gun site that is specifically dedicated to religious issues? I don't think so.

Billspider
05-01-2012, 12:14
In a subforum on that gun site that is specifically dedicated to religious issues? I don't think so.

I stand corrected.

Paul7
05-01-2012, 12:16
You may be the king of circular reasoning, having used it in every response in the thread. You believe your religion is true because your religion says it's true, therefore you can believe it?

Cite or retract. You believe that atheist myth, not I.

I don't "pick" my world view - that's the differtence between us. What I believe is decided by what evidence I see.

Much the same with me. There is good evidence that the Gospel events really happened. I certainly haven't seen a reasonable alternate theory, all I get is wild conspiracy theories with no evidence.

Altaris
05-01-2012, 12:26
Yeah, and this post pretty much answers my earlier inquiry, which you answered untruthfully.

So are you trolling, or do you just not have a good answer to the question?


What causes you to pick Jesus and christian god over Muhammad and the muslim god? Why not Zeus, or Thor, or Ra? Why not one of the countless other gods that have been around over the years ? How do you know one is right and the others are wrong? How do you know one is real and the others are not?

And yes, I am looking to see if you have an actual serious answer.

Bren
05-01-2012, 13:38
Cite or retract. You believe that atheist myth, not I.

I'm not sure what you mean there - I quoted you using a circular argument - your words ARE the circular argument, there is nothing more to "cite" unless you don't know what circular reasoning is and certainly nothing to retract.

If you need it broken down like kindergarten, you claim that you believe your religion is true because the book documenting the beliefs of your religion tells you it is true. You even cited relevant portions. In the specific post I quoted, you said you know christianity is true because Jesus performed miracles.:rofl: Yes, that is circular reasoning of the worst kind.


Much the same with me. There is good evidence that the Gospel events really happened. I certainly haven't seen a reasonable alternate theory, all I get is wild conspiracy theories with no evidence.

There's the problem that leads to this entire thread. All of the religions have a mythology - most have it written down with just as relaible a source as your own (in other words, a self-proving set of stories). How did you choose your god over Zeus or Odin?

Paul7
05-01-2012, 13:54
I'm not sure what you mean there - I quoted you using a circular argument - your words ARE the circular argument, there is nothing more to "cite" unless you don't know what circular reasoning is and certainly nothing to retract.

If you need it broken down like kindergarten, you claim that you believe your religion is true because the book documenting the beliefs of your religion tells you it is true. You even cited relevant portions. In the specific post I quoted, you said you know christianity is true because Jesus performed miracles.:rofl: Yes, that is circular reasoning of the worst kind.

Nonsense, here's a real example of circular reasoning: Saying miracles are impossible, but we only know that by discarding contrary testimony.

IF the Gospel events really happened, what evidence would you expect to see 2,000 years later other than the Gospel record and historical evidence of the changed lives of the Apostles?

There's the problem that leads to this entire thread.

The problem with this thread is that people like you have an a priori bias against the supernatural, making any rational discussion impossible. An example of this is the late Christopher Hitchens, who said he didn't want there to be a god, and said if he witnessed a miracle it would probably be a delusion.

All of the religions have a mythology

Because some religions are false doesn't prove all are.

most have it written down with just as relaible a source as your own (in other words, a self-proving set of stories). How did you choose your god over Zeus or Odin?

Do they claim to offer salvation? Go ahead and sell me, I'll listen.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 13:57
I'm not sure what you mean there - I quoted you using a circular argument - your words ARE the circular argument, there is nothing more to "cite" unless you don't know what circular reasoning is and certainly nothing to retract.

Some people seem to think that if they just use the same words as the smart people then that makes them equally smart and their position equally valid. It's kinda sad when they make it so painfully obvious that they don't understand how to string them together into coherent thoughts.

Altaris
05-01-2012, 13:58
Do they claim to offer salvation? Go ahead and sell me, I'll listen.

So are you only looking for what the results are for you, or are you looking for the truth?

user
05-01-2012, 14:12
That's easy. The one who answers you when you ask for help in understanding what to do is the real one. It has nothing to do with religion.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 14:14
That's easy. The one who answers you when you ask for help in understanding what to do is the real one. It has nothing to do with religion.

So, by that standard (and using my experience) christianity can be concluded to be false.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 14:31
Okay. That is all well assuming the only contender is Christianity.

But why choose Christianity and not, say, Buddhism?

Buddhism has no god.

There is not a single world religion that has anything approaching the Bible as a holy book. It has been proven over and over.

Islam came up later and many of the things in the Bible are included in it including the basic Ten Commandments. What is lacking is Jesus as savior. Yes, Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, but not as the central role He has in the Bible as savior. Islam does not teach that man was created in God's image therefore it does not value human life like the Bible.

The Hindus believe in hundreds or thousands of gods. None of them are Savior or Creator. They serve their gods from fear. I chose not to serve any gods that do not care about me unless I bribe them.

The Bible has the history of the world in it from creation to the new earth that will be created after this one ends. Those that are willing can be there. The Bible promises eternal life to those who follow Jesus. The history has been accurate so far so why not the promises for the future?

void *
05-01-2012, 14:59
The Hindus believe in hundreds or thousands of gods. None of them are Savior or Creator. They serve their gods from fear. I chose not to serve any gods that do not care about me unless I bribe them.

Ignoring, for a moment, that "My religion is the only to claim x, therefore it must be true" is not actually a valid argument, have you really never heard of Vishnu or Brahma?

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 15:52
Ignoring, for a moment, that "My religion is the only to claim x, therefore it must be true" is not actually a valid argument, have you really never heard of Vishnu or Brahma?

I spent plenty of time in India. Hinduism is very unsatisfying to many of the Indians especially the untouchables who are not even allowed into the temples to worship.

Paul7
05-01-2012, 15:53
So are you only looking for what the results are for you, or are you looking for the truth?

I think I've found the truth. As GK Chesterton said, the purpose of an open mind is to close it on something solid.

void *
05-01-2012, 16:23
I spent plenty of time in India. Hinduism is very unsatisfying to many of the Indians especially the untouchables who are not even allowed into the temples to worship.

The point here is that the claim that Hinduism does not have a "creator" is patently false, not whether or not you in particular find it satisfying.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 17:35
I spent plenty of time in India. Hinduism is very unsatisfying to many of the Indians especially the untouchables who are not even allowed into the temples to worship.

It's pretty scary when religion is allowed to call the shots, isn't it?

Paul7
05-01-2012, 18:11
It's pretty scary when religion is allowed to call the shots, isn't it?

When you're a hammer, every problem is a nail.

It would be nice if the Hindus were converted to the notion of the Golden Rule. That would be the end of the caste system. Christians are persecuted by Hindus today as they see Christianity as a threat to it.

Why would an atheist be opposed to the caste system?

Animal Mother
05-01-2012, 18:28
It would be nice if the Hindus were converted to the notion of the Golden Rule. That would be the end of the caste system. Did the Golden Rule prevent the caste system of Medieval Europe?
Why would an atheist be opposed to the caste system? Why wouldn't they be? Not believing in gods has nothing to do with temporal societal structure. A more important question is why would Christians be opposed to such a thing? Doesn't the Bible tell slaves to obey their masters and everyone to abide by the temporal authority's dictates?

Paul7
05-01-2012, 18:43
Did the Golden Rule prevent the caste system of Medieval Europe?


This caste system you imagine didn't prevent the peasant Joan of Arc from rising pretty high.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 19:15
Did the Golden Rule prevent the caste system of Medieval Europe?


The caste system is not Christian. Never has been.

The ground is level at the foot of the cross.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 19:32
This caste system you imagine didn't prevent the peasant Joan of Arc from rising pretty high.

The caste system is not Christian. Never has been.

The ground is level at the foot of the cross.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

You do both realize that Christianity and other religions have for the vast majority of their existence been used as a means to control people and that includes caste systems?

ETA Never mind should have directed that to Paul only. I'm fairly certain how Vic will answer that.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 19:48
The major determining factor is geography

True answer, more so in the past than today though.

amd65
05-01-2012, 19:59
"...What shall we say, shall we call it by a name,
As well to count the angels dancing on a pin.
Water bright as the sky from which it came,
And the name is on the earth that takes it in.
We will not speak but stand inside the rain,
And listen to the thunder shouting "I am! I am! I am! I am."..."

Animal Mother
05-01-2012, 20:17
This caste system you imagine didn't prevent the peasant Joan of Arc from rising pretty high. How is that an answer to the question you were asked? Let me repeat it in hopes you might actually answer, "Did the Golden Rule prevent the caste system of Medieval Europe?"

Geko45
05-01-2012, 20:18
It would be nice if the Hindus were converted to the notion of the Golden Rule. That would be the end of the caste system.

What? You mean something like this?

"This is the sum of duty: Do naught unto others in ways that would cause pain if done unto you."

- Mahabharata 5:1517

Why would an atheist be opposed to the caste system?

Because an atheist would realize that their best chance of being treated fairly in their one and only life would be to live in a system that treats everyone fairly? Really, that's not to hard of a mental leap there.

Animal Mother
05-01-2012, 20:19
The caste system is not Christian. Never has been.

The ground is level at the foot of the cross.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye be Christís, then are ye Abrahamís seed, and heirs according to the promise. How is that an answer to the question you quoted?

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 20:24
You do both realize that Christianity and other religions have for the vast majority of their existence been used as a means to control people and that includes caste systems?

ETA Never mind should have directed that to Paul only. I'm fairly certain how Vic will answer that.

Counterfeit Christianity is into controlling and having authority over people.

According to Jesus the real thing will not exercise authority over people.

Matthew 20:21 And he said to her, What will you? She said to him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on your right hand, and the other on the left, in your kingdom.
20:22 But Jesus answered and said, You know not what you ask. Are you able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say to him, We are able.
20:23 And he said to them, You shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not my to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brothers.
20:25 But Jesus called them to him, and said, You know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority on them.
20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
20:27 And whoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered to, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 20:30
You do both realize that Christianity and other religions have for the vast majority of their existence been used as a means to control people and that includes caste systems?

The irony is that I believe the real Jesus (the ordinary man that lived a long time ago) was really trying to fight that system and that is why people began following him. But a few hundred years later, his teachings were perverted into just another system of control.

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 20:33
Counterfeit Christianity is into controlling and having authority over people.

According to Jesus the real thing will not exercise authority over people...

Hence my edit. I thought twice and realized you would claim and/or imply that SDA finally got it right and Christianity prior to that was counterfeit, not true Christianity or something along those lines. Predictable. Wonder if you give versions of Islam or any other religion the same deference. Heads up. I'm pretty sure how you will answer that also.

Vic Hays
05-01-2012, 21:14
The irony is that I believe the real Jesus (the ordinary man that lived a long time ago) was really trying to fight that system and that is why people began following him. But a few hundred years later, his teachings were perverted into just another system of control.

The Bible predicted that. The saints would be under a power for 1260 years. A prophetic day is equal to one year. A time is one year. Times is two years. Dividing of time is 6 months. Prophetic years are 360 days. Prophetic months are 30 days.

This time period coincided with the dark ages.


Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:23
that's why I ascribe to Dasein philosophy as expressed by Martin Heidegger (also expressed by the philospher Popeye..I yam what I yam...and that's all that I yam) existence is defined by being not by some unexplainable outside phenomenon or force

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:25
The Bible predicted that. The saints would be under a power for 1260 years. A prophetic day is equal to one year. A time is one year. Times is two years. Dividing of time is 6 months. Prophetic years are 360 days. Prophetic months are 30 days.

This time period coincided with the dark ages.


Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

seems like the track record of time lines by SDA would be a tough line to sell

yellowhand
05-01-2012, 21:42
How do you pick a god out of the tens of thousands of options?
To answer that question, I'd have agree with the premise of the question, in that there are tens of thousands of G-ds and I don't.
Faith and belief in G-d is just that, faith and belief.
G-d granted everyone alive now and all those that came before the choice to believe or not to believe.
Each of us has freewill. Freewill is explained in detail in the Torah, Bible, and Koran and in most other faiths practiced on earth.
My faith understands that certain men will practice evil and that other men will not.
Freewill
Some people will believe and others will not.
Freewill
Worship, be faithful, practice your faith or practice nothing, it all comes back to freewill.
Anyone reading this that is without faith in G-d, thats ok.
Anyone without faith is invited to attend my Temple and all I promise is that everyone will be happy you came, will ask that you return when you wish, and we;ll make sure you get a free cup of coffee, a smile or two, and if you;re quick enough, something tasty to eat.
I have a few question for those that don't have faith.
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when its time to bury a loved one?
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when a baby is born and sadly, sometimes when that baby dies far too early?
When a loved one is near death, for those without faith, do you just walk away when that person dies, knowing that everything they were is now just gone, or do you (hope,) just another word for (pray) that there might be a G-d and that the person you loved is now happy, at peace, in a far better place?
I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.
L'shalom

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 21:44
The irony is that I believe the real Jesus (the ordinary man that lived a long time ago) was really trying to fight that system and that is why people began following him. But a few hundred years later, his teachings were perverted into just another system of control.

Not sure myself that the accounts of Jesus can be contributed to a single individual, but I find that scenario far more likely than the account of the Bible. At best Jesus was a heretical yet revolutionary thinker whose teachings/actions were later distorted to fanatical proportions. At worst he was a heretical yet revolutionary whack job with a Messiah complex.

rgregoryb
05-01-2012, 21:57
How do you pick a god out of the tens of thousands of options?
To answer that question, I'd have agree with the premise of the question, in that there are tens of thousands of G-ds and I don't.
Faith and belief in G-d is just that, faith and belief.
G-d granted everyone alive now and all those that came before the choice to believe or not to believe.
Each of us has freewill. Freewill is explained in detail in the Torah, Bible, and Koran and in most other faiths practiced on earth.
My faith understands that certain men will practice evil and that other men will not.
Freewill
Some people will believe and others will not.
Freewill
Worship, be faithful, practice your faith or practice nothing, it all comes back to freewill.
Anyone reading this that is without faith in G-d, thats ok.
Anyone without faith is invited to attend my Temple and all I promise is that everyone will be happy you came, will ask that you return when you wish, and we;ll make sure you get a free cup of coffee, a smile or two, and if you;re quick enough, something tasty to eat.
I have a few question for those that don't have faith.
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when its time to bury a loved one?
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when a baby is born and sadly, sometimes when that baby dies far too early?
When a loved one is near death, for those without faith, do you just walk away when that person dies, knowing that everything they were is now just gone, or do you (hope,) just another word for (pray) that there might be a G-d and that the person you loved is now happy, at peace, in a far better place?
I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.
L'shalom

This is the place.WYSIWYG....why do we need to think "there's a better place...then we waste this place

ArtificialGrape
05-01-2012, 22:23
I have a few question for those that don't have faith.
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when its time to bury a loved one?
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when a baby is born and sadly, sometimes when that baby dies far too early?
When a loved one is near death, for those without faith, do you just walk away when that person dies, knowing that everything they were is now just gone, or do you (hope,) just another word for (pray) that there might be a G-d and that the person you loved is now happy, at peace, in a far better place?
I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.
L'shalom
What I've accepted is that when someone dies, they live on in the memories that they left with those that survived them, and in the legacy that they left behind. Nothing more.

Stephen Covey's "live, love, learn, leave a legacy" doesn't require accepting LDS, Christianity, or even religion.

-ArtificialGrape

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 22:27
...I have a few question for those that don't have faith. Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when its time to bury a loved one?

Where those and with whom those that loved them also regardless of faith.

Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when a baby is born and sadly, sometimes when that baby dies far too early?
When a loved one is near death, for those without faith, do you just walk away when that person dies, knowing that everything they were is now just gone, or do you (hope,) just another word for (pray) that there might be a G-d and that the person you loved is now happy, at peace, in a far better place?

Same answer. I had an ex and her child, which I helped raise for a year, that were both murdered. I chose to be where and with others that I knew mourned their deaths as well. It happened to be at a church with Christians which I am not. I will admit it was hollow as I believe that they are forever gone but I needed to share that mourning with others. I now try to celebrate in remembrance their lives but it is a hard thing to do

I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.
L'shalom

We mourn, we grieve and we weep like those that believe otherwise, perhaps even more so for there is no afterlife we ascribe to, no better place. No offense taken. It is a legit question.

This is the place....why do we need to think there's a better place...then we waste this place

Amen. This is all we get and we'd all be better off if we tried to make the most of it rather than count on something afterwards.

Syclone538
05-01-2012, 22:32
Having a founder who fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead is a good start.
...

This is basically...

Why do you believe in your religion?
Because the founder preformed miracles.

Why do you believe the founder preformed miracles?
Because my religious book says so.

Why do you believe your religions book?
Because the founder preformed miracles.

And you are honestly saying you don't understand that this is circular reasoning???


...
How did you pick your worldview to the exclusion of all others?

I haven't excluded all others. I don't like the word pick, but by what seems most likely to be true.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 22:42
I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.

As has been mentioned, it is a legit question so no worries. We're still human. We mourn and grieve just like everyone else. It's true that I believe that when you die your conscience mind is no more, but I don't just "walk away". I remember and cherish the person lost just as you would.

As for what happens after, the universe wastes nothing. Consevartion of mass and energy are in full affect. The molecules of our body were all forged at the center of stars and released into the universe in super nova events. Our mass and energy will just be transformed into something else.

From star dust we came and to star dust we shall return.

fmhuff
05-01-2012, 22:45
There are far too many Trolls here to have a serious discussion about religious faith. How may mocking comments so far?

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 22:52
...From star dust we came and to star dust we shall return. That may not be as cathartic as the belief in an afterlife but I find it far more poetic and beautiful. Once again Geko you have managed to put syllables to my thoughts better than I was able.

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 22:56
There are far too many Trolls here to have a serious discussion about religious faith. How may mocking comments so far?

Read the last ten or so comments and rethink that. This thread mocks where mocking is called for and is serious where it needs to be.

Geko45
05-01-2012, 23:02
That may not be as cathartic as the belief in an afterlife but I find it far more poetic and beautiful. Once again Geko you have managed to put syllables to my thoughts better than I was able.

I wax astronomic.

:supergrin:

juggy4711
05-01-2012, 23:09
I wax astronomic.

:supergrin:

:rofl: I have aviation in my bloodline but am not an aviator myself. Perhaps that has something to do with it. Application over understanding. :cool:

rgregoryb
05-02-2012, 06:41
I wax astronomic.

:supergrin:

I wax with carnuba........................

muscogee
05-02-2012, 07:59
Actually it is fairly easy to pick a denomination out of Christianity.

There is only one God in Christianity so that narrows the search down to looking for which denomination is closest to God's revealed Truth.

The Bible is the Word of God passed down through the ages. God is able to protect His Word or He would not be God.

Out of the Bible there are only a couple of times that God wrote anything Himself so they must be pretty important.

God wrote the Ten Commandments Himself. Doesn't everyone believe in the Ten Commandments? Actually, No. There are many denominations that give lip service to them, but there are few that actually keep the Seventh-day Sabbath which is right in the heart of the Ten Commandments and points to the specific God of creation as His Sabbath day.

There are some groups that keep the Seventh-day Sabbath and neglect faith in Jesus and His sacrifice for our sins. Not a good choice to neglect the savior.

Now the Bible tells us itself by contrast which group is pleasing to God and which groups are lost.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Translation:
Make your best guess.

Paul7
05-02-2012, 08:10
This is basically...

Why do you believe in your religion?
Because the founder preformed miracles.

Why do you believe the founder preformed miracles?
Because my religious book says so.

Why do you believe your religions book?
Because the founder preformed miracles.

And you are honestly saying you don't understand that this is circular reasoning???

That is a very simplistic way to put it, kind of like people saying evolution is believed because an evolution book says so.

What is your alternate conspiracy explanation for the Gospel accounts, with evidence?

I haven't excluded all others. I don't like the word pick, but by what seems most likely to be true.

And I would say Christianity is most likely true. The evidence will get you 60% of the way there, from there a Christian's relationship with the person of Jesus Christ takes care of the rest, IMHO.

Vic Hays
05-02-2012, 09:24
The Creator God asks you to prove Him.

The Bible declares the end from the beginning. There is no other that has done this.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Geko45
05-02-2012, 09:39
The Bible declares the end from the beginning. There is no other that has done this.

The Hindu scriptures say that Lord Brahma has created many universes and that this is simply the most recent. I would imagine a Hindu would claim that his faith is the only one that claims that therefore his must be the true faith.

Paul7
05-02-2012, 10:03
The Hindu scriptures say that Lord Brahma has created many universes and that this is simply the most recent. I would imagine a Hindu would claim that his faith is the only one that claims that therefore his must be the true faith.

The three worldviews (Christian, Hindu, and yours) can't all be right.

Geko45
05-02-2012, 10:07
The three worldviews (Christian, Hindu, and yours) can't all be right.

Exactly, which is the real point of this thread. How do you know yours is right?

How do I know mine (worldview) is right? Well, I'm not absolutely certain. Which is fine because my worldview doesn't require me to be.

Bren
05-02-2012, 11:35
Exactly, which is the real point of this thread. How do you know yours is right?

How do I know mine (worldview) is right? Well, I'm not absolutely certain. Which is fine because my worldview doesn't require me to be.

The irony is that the world view that can never been certain it is entirely right is that way because it is the only one based on actual evidence and, therefore, has the best claim to be right.

Lone Wolf8634
05-02-2012, 11:46
I have a few question for those that don't have faith.
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when its time to bury a loved one?
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when a baby is born and sadly, sometimes when that baby dies far too early?
When a loved one is near death, for those without faith, do you just walk away when that person dies, knowing that everything they were is now just gone, or do you (hope,) just another word for (pray) that there might be a G-d and that the person you loved is now happy, at peace, in a far better place?
I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.
L'shalom

We mourn and hurt the same.

In some cases, such as my Grandparents, they lived rich, full lives and didn't regret much of anything. I don't see a reason to "hope" that they're in a better place. They didn't deserve the deaths they experienced (one from cancer and one of a stroke that left him debilitated for two years) and I see their deaths as a release from the pain and misery they were forced to endure. There isn't a reason to "hope" for more than that. They thought the same, and told me so on many occasions.

My views on death bring me as much comfort as yours do for you.

Bren
05-02-2012, 12:17
How do you pick a god out of the tens of thousands of options?
To answer that question, I'd have agree with the premise of the question, in that there are tens of thousands of G-ds and I don't.
Faith and belief in G-d is just that, faith and belief.
G-d granted everyone alive now and all those that came before the choice to believe or not to believe.
Each of us has freewill. Freewill is explained in detail in the Torah, Bible, and Koran and in most other faiths practiced on earth.
My faith understands that certain men will practice evil and that other men will not.
Freewill
Some people will believe and others will not.
Freewill
Worship, be faithful, practice your faith or practice nothing, it all comes back to freewill.
Anyone reading this that is without faith in G-d, thats ok.
Anyone without faith is invited to attend my Temple and all I promise is that everyone will be happy you came, will ask that you return when you wish, and we;ll make sure you get a free cup of coffee, a smile or two, and if you;re quick enough, something tasty to eat.
I have a few question for those that don't have faith.
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when its time to bury a loved one?
Where do, and with whom do you gather/stand with, those without faith, when a baby is born and sadly, sometimes when that baby dies far too early?
When a loved one is near death, for those without faith, do you just walk away when that person dies, knowing that everything they were is now just gone, or do you (hope,) just another word for (pray) that there might be a G-d and that the person you loved is now happy, at peace, in a far better place?
I've always wondered what those without faith believe happens when a loved one dies?
Was always worried about asking, because I did not wish to be rude or insensitive.
L'shalom

So, to condense that into an answer, you believe the god of your religion is the real one...because that's the only one that is real.

Have you met Paul7?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dc/WillTheCircleBeUnbroken1907Hymn.png

Bren
05-02-2012, 12:18
We mourn and hurt the same.

In some cases, such as my Grandparents, they lived rich, full lives and didn't regret much of anything. I don't see a reason to "hope" that they're in a better place. They didn't deserve the deaths they experienced (one from cancer and one of a stroke that left him debilitated for two years) and I see their deaths as a release from the pain and misery they were forced to endure. There isn't a reason to "hope" for more than that. They thought the same, and told me so on many occasions.

My views on death bring me as much comfort as yours do for you.


I feel exactly the same about it. I can't see anything bad about ceasing to exist and I can't imagine how it inspires panic in others.

aujrb
05-02-2012, 12:28
I would like to address the question the OP asked.

I realize that when I give the answer I believe to be true, that I will seem to be out of my mind. But please understanding, this is what I have learned to be true from reading and studying Scripture.

I believe in the God of the Bible because He makes me believe in Him.

See, I grew up in church, but was never truly saved until I heard the Gospel proclamation on a radio program called Wretched Radio. They have witnessing encounters every Wednesday. Hearing those encounters, God regenerated me (made me to be born again) causing me to believe in Him.

Again, I know it sounds crazy, but that's what I've learned.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

muscogee
05-02-2012, 13:21
That is a very simplistic way to put it, kind of like people saying evolution is believed because an evolution book says so.
Translation - I disagree but I can't tell you why".

What is your alternate conspiracy explanation for the Gospel accounts, with evidence?

Amazon.com: The Gnostic Gospels (9780679724537): Elaine Pagels: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51W9JHSFGSL.@@AMEPARAM@@51W9JHSFGSL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic_Gospels

rgregoryb
05-02-2012, 14:10
I would like to address the question the OP asked.

I realize that when I give the answer I believe to be true, that I will seem to be out of my mind. But please understanding, this is what I have learned to be true from reading and studying Scripture.

I believe in the God of the Bible because He makes me believe in Him.

See, I grew up in church, but was never truly saved until I heard the Gospel proclamation on a radio program called Wretched Radio. They have witnessing encounters every Wednesday. Hearing those encounters, God regenerated me (made me to be born again) causing me to believe in Him.

Again, I know it sounds crazy, but that's what I've learned.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

it's not crazy for you...go with what you believe :wavey:

Bren
05-02-2012, 14:18
I would like to address the question the OP asked.

I realize that when I give the answer I believe to be true, that I will seem to be out of my mind. But please understanding, this is what I have learned to be true from reading and studying Scripture.

I believe in the God of the Bible because He makes me believe in Him.

See, I grew up in church, but was never truly saved until I heard the Gospel proclamation on a radio program called Wretched Radio. They have witnessing encounters every Wednesday. Hearing those encounters, God regenerated me (made me to be born again) causing me to believe in Him.

Again, I know it sounds crazy, but that's what I've learned.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Regardless of what I think about such things, it is a good, honest answer. You at least have a reason, other than "I believe in the bible because the bible says I should" like some of the others. Thanks for the answer.

yellowhand
05-02-2012, 20:50
Good discussion!!!
For those who listed above that they had lost loved ones, most all of us have, the old Hebrew expression;
May you now find peace
is sent along to each of you.

"So, to condense that into an answer, you believe the god of your religion is the real one...because that's the only one that is real."
"Have you met Paul7?" copied from Bren I think

I don't know or have not met Paul7.

To answer the other question, my faith requires me to believe, which I do, that there is only one G-d.
Not that he is the only real G-d.

The key words above is "I" and "me" that's my belief system.

I spent well over two decades insuring that ALL Americans could believe or not believe in their G-d or G-d's as they desired/seen fit.
Freedom to worship as one see's fit is also freedom to not worship or believe.
Seems like the right way to handle all of this.
L'shalom

juggy4711
05-02-2012, 21:07
...The key words above is "I" and "me" that's my belief system...

I can dig on that.

"Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one." - Thomas Jeffereson

Bren
05-03-2012, 04:44
To answer the other question, my faith requires me to believe, which I do, that there is only one G-d.
Not that he is the only real G-d.

The key words above is "I" and "me" that's my belief system.


But this whole thread is about how you GOT that belief system to begin with. If you were not a believer in your religion, you would not be required by it to believe anything, so the point people keep not answering is, "how did you decide your religion was true to begin with, so you could become a believer in it?"

I have known very few, if any, religious people who have tried other religions, so it makes one wonder how they can be so sure theirs is right. If I gather up 100 believers in 100 different religions, they will each be certain theirs is the true religion, whether they worship Odin, Zeus, Satan, Jesus, Brahma or Horus.

Animal Mother
05-03-2012, 05:08
The Creator God asks you to prove Him.

The Bible declares the end from the beginning. There is no other that has done this.What does that mean? That the Bible has an end of the world story? Pretty much every faith has that. The Norse have Ragnarok, for example.

Animal Mother
05-03-2012, 05:11
That is a very simplistic way to put it, kind of like people saying evolution is believed because an evolution book says so. If that were why people accepted evolution, you might have a point. It isn't. Evolution is accepted based on the evidence, not the claims made in books. Where is the evidence for Biblical miracles, other than the claims made in the Bible?
What is your alternate conspiracy explanation for the Gospel accounts, with evidence? A new radical rabbi came to Jerusalem teaching a heterodox form of Judaism. After his death, his followers expanded and increased his legend until he was God in the flesh.
And I would say Christianity is most likely true. The evidence will get you 60% of the way there, from there a Christian's relationship with the person of Jesus Christ takes care of the rest, IMHO. What evidence? Is there any firm evidence for any facet of Jesus' life as reported in the canonical gospels?

Animal Mother
05-03-2012, 05:13
To answer the other question, my faith requires me to believe, which I do, that there is only one G-d.
Not that he is the only real G-d. Why does your faith require that? It certainly isn't what the Torah and Tanakh say. They mention a number of other Gods, as inferior to the Biblical God, but not as being false idols.

Paul7
05-03-2012, 06:50
Regardless of what I think about such things, it is a good, honest answer. You at least have a reason, other than "I believe in the bible because the bible says I should" like some of the others. Thanks for the answer.

I would think most Christians here, me included, have had a similar conversion experience. You won't argue us out of that relationship with the person of Jesus Christ. Does that count for evidence?

Paul7
05-03-2012, 06:56
If that were why people accepted evolution, you might have a point. It isn't. Evolution is accepted based on the evidence, not the claims made in books.

It is based on guesses on origins, which many eagerly accept in lieu of God. It is the great escape mechanism of modern man where man looks for intellectual justification for escape from personal responsibility to his Creator.

Where is the evidence for Biblical miracles, other than the claims made in the Bible?

First tell me what evidence you would find acceptable after 2,000 years.

A new radical rabbi came to Jerusalem teaching a heterodox form of Judaism. After his death, his followers expanded and increased his legend until he was God in the flesh.

Who would knowingly die for a lie?

"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." II Peter 1:16

What evidence? Is there any firm evidence for any facet of Jesus' life as reported in the canonical gospels?

Primarily my relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, the Gospel accounts corroborate that.

Bren
05-03-2012, 09:22
I would think most Christians here, me included, have had a similar conversion experience. You won't argue us out of that relationship with the person of Jesus Christ. Does that count for evidence?

I didn't say it was evidence - it was just the first religious answer that didn't rely on, "I believe in my religion because it's the true one and I know it's the true one because I believe in it."

If his answer concerned a belief in anything other than religion, or probably even a non-judeo/christian/muslim religion, we'd all be agreeing that he's crazy and needs treatment for the imaginary voises in his head. The "God tells me" answer is an improvement over the quasi-dishonest answers, but it offers nothing to differentiate it from a guy who knew his neighbor's dog was satan, commanding him to shoot people with a .44 mag.

If an adult believes he was abducted by aliens from outer space because he recovered hidden memories of it, I don't take that as evidence that it is true, because that is not the most likely answer.

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 10:22
I picked the God that is the Creator, who has the principles of love, truth, fairness, merciful, unchangablesness, and free will or individual liberty.

If He changed He could love you at one time and then hate you later. If He was unfair you would end up short. If He was merciless He would have to destroy everything that was not perfect.

dbcooper
05-03-2012, 10:30
I picked the God that is the Creator, who has the principles of love, truth, fairness, merciful, unchangablesness, and free will or individual liberty.

If He changed He could love you at one time and then hate you later. If He was unfair you would end up short. If He was merciless He would have to destroy everything that was not perfect.

Or he could just send a flood . Reading through the Old Testament and then the New seems like you have two different Gods or one that would today be called bipolar.

Geko45
05-03-2012, 10:30
If He changed He could love you at one time and then hate you later.

You don't see a change in the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament?

If He was unfair you would end up short.

We were intentionally created (supposedly) with such great flaws that he knew we would be unable to adhere to the rules that he intended to require of us.

If He was merciless He would have to destroy everything that was not perfect.

Noah's flood.

Vic Hays
05-03-2012, 10:49
Or he could just send a flood . Reading through the Old Testament and then the New seems like you have two different Gods or one that would today be called bipolar.

The flood was mercy. The thoughts of men were only evil and it is not mercy to let men live in sin. However, God had promised to have a man who would triumph over satan. If He had totally destroyed all of mankind He would not be able to fulfill His promise which would have made Him a liar which would violate His principles. So Noah was chosen by grace to carry forth the man creature.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The first promise of the redeemer to come as a descendant of the woman:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

dbcooper
05-03-2012, 10:58
The flood was mercy. The thoughts of men were only evil and it is not mercy to let men live in sin. However, God had promised to have a man who would triumph over satan. If He had totally destroyed all of mankind He would not be able to fulfill His promise which would have made Him a liar which would violate His principles. So Noah was chosen by grace to carry forth the man creature.

Genesis
3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The first promise of the redeemer to come as a descendant of the woman:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

So there were no newborns around when the flood hit? My idea of mercy must be a bit different than others.

The Old Testament God is vengeful to say the least.

Then the new covenant, and it's all love and such.

I have a hard time making the two jibe.

Edit to add.

I've put a lot of thought into it over the years starting back when I was in a Sunday school class of 3rd graders. I always had questions that they couldn't or wouldn't answer. Part of the problem was the fact that I was in with the kids(I jumped 5 grades in school that year but the church didn't move me). In the end I got a lecture from the Reverend that it was not my place to question, that was pretty much the end of me and the church.

Bren
05-03-2012, 12:59
I picked the God that is the Creator, who has the principles of love, truth, fairness, merciful, unchangablesness, and free will or individual liberty.

If He changed He could love you at one time and then hate you later. If He was unfair you would end up short. If He was merciless He would have to destroy everything that was not perfect.

I believe you would need no more than your own bible to conclude that you just called your god, changing, unfair and merciless. He gives plenty of examples of each. Just ask Noah or Job or that guy that played "Mini Me."

muscogee
05-03-2012, 14:18
I didn't say it was evidence - it was just the first religious answer that didn't rely on, "I believe in my religion because it's the true one and I know it's the true one because I believe in it."

If his answer concerned a belief in anything other than religion, or probably even a non-judeo/christian/muslim religion, we'd all be agreeing that he's crazy and needs treatment for the imaginary voises in his head. The "God tells me" answer is an improvement over the quasi-dishonest answers, but it offers nothing to differentiate it from a guy who knew his neighbor's dog was satan, commanding him to shoot people with a .44 mag.

If an adult believes he was abducted by aliens from outer space because he recovered hidden memories of it, I don't take that as evidence that it is true, because that is not the most likely answer.

Excellent point.

Animal Mother
05-03-2012, 17:59
It is based on guesses on origins, which many eagerly accept in lieu of God. It is the great escape mechanism of modern man where man looks for intellectual justification for escape from personal responsibility to his Creator. Wrong again. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming and, despite your unwillingness to acknowledge it, is completely separate from the issue of abiogenesis.
First tell me what evidence you would find acceptable after 2,000 years. I've answered this repeatedly in the past. Archaeological evidence for the miraculous events described in the Bible, contemporary external accounts which verify or attempt to debunk the reported miracles.
Who would knowingly die for a lie? Also repeatedly answered in the past. There's no need for them to knowingly be dying for something that wasn't true. People believe false things all the time.
"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty." II Peter 1:16 Although 2 Peter internally purports to be a work of the apostle, most biblical scholars have concluded that Peter is not the author and consider the epistle pseudepigraphical. Reasons for this include its linguistic differences from 1 Peter, its apparent use of Jude, possible allusions to 2nd-century gnosticism, encouragement in the wake of a delayed parousia, and weak external support. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Peter#Challenging_authorship) I do enjoy when you make my points for me. Thanks.
Primarily my relationship with the person of Jesus Christ, the Gospel accounts corroborate that.You don't have any actual evidence then? Has Jesus personally verified the canonical accounts for you?

TKM
05-03-2012, 18:25
Having a founder who fulfilled prophecy, performed miracles and rose from the dead is a good start.




From: Simon Ewins
To: Andrew Ruys

Problem is I do not attempt to address secular evidence of anything to do with Jesus Christ because, a) Christ is a title, not a surname (it should be Jesus the Christ), b) christ is a title designating one who is annointed and I don't have a big quarrel with the stipulation that he was annointed, in fact I think it is very likely that he was, its significance has, however, been greatly exaggerated.

The main reason that I am more than willing to state that "a man named Jesus was executed by the Romans during the period governed by Pontius Pilate", is because there are so many non-Christian sources that support the idea. Roman, Jewish and gnostic sources as well as the gospel authors and virtually all competent biblical scholars, agree that this was the case.

That is evidence that is satisfactory to me. However, I question to the point of dismissal claims that he was born of a virgin, rose from the dead, rose others from the dead or walked on water because Roman, Jewish and gnostic sources as well as the gospel authors and biblical scholars do _not_ agree and in fact either contradict each other most of the time or totally ignore such events, never mentioning them at all.

To convince me of the divinity of Jesus will require the same kind of evidence that has convinced me that he existed and was executed by the Romans under Pontius Pilate. No more and no less. The sources that you cite as being supportive of the more outlandish claims made in the NT in actual fact do not only not support those claims but they speak loudly against them since they ignore them. Yet these events are too fantastic to be ignored if they actually happened. The more mundane claims, I do not deny. However, for the more extraordinary claims equally extraordinary evidence is required.

I assure you that I _can_ be convinced... given the right kinds of evidence.
Then you should realize that there is nothing in extant that was written about Jesus any earlier than Paul's letters which are still, at the very earliest, dated to ten years after Jesus' death. As you should know, Mark is dated by most scholars to 70-75 C.E. which is about forty years after Jesus' death. Matthew at about 80-85 C.E., Luke at about 85-90 C.E. and John at 110-120 (if not as late as 140) C.E.

You should find it suggestive that the earliest (Paul) make no mention of a virgin birth, raising the dead or walking on water kinds of miracles. A little healing but no big "WOW" except the resurrection. The next earliest source, Mark, adds a few miracles but no virgin birth and no raising people from the dead. Matthew has a virgin birth and even more miracles. Luke adds to the virgin birth and presents a slightly more miraculous being. John takes it another step by making Jesus the son of a god, raising Lazarus and generally being more spirit than human. The later the source the more fantastic the reports.

- Jesus dies.
- Paul adds resurrection.
- Matthew/Luke add virgin birth.
- John makes him a god.

As I say, that should be suggestive of something to you. If nothing else Paul and the authors of Matthew, Mark and Luke should have noticed something as phenomenal as the raising of Lazarus from the dead (especially Paul, that would have been something that he would have made a very big deal about). None even mention it. Even the editor of the "The Abingdon Bible Commentary" finds that hard to swallow, "He [John] is the only one to record the miracle of Lazarus, a miracle so incredible that it could hardly have escaped the attention of Paul, Mark, Matthew, and Luke had it really happened. Why did they not make mention of this miracle?"

My answer is "Because it never happened.". So, if John is considered to be accurate history by yourself then you must dismiss the others as inaccurate or at least very bad history for missing such a phenomenally noticeable thing.

How you can assert with any honesty that what ended up in the gospels is related to accurate history is beyond me.

juggy4711
05-03-2012, 19:16
...How you can assert with any honesty that what ended up in the gospels is related to accurate history is beyond me.

Too many Christians have to do so otherwise their fragile belief system would be shattered. For too many of them it is far more important that all the hocus pocus of the Bible be true. Somehow without it they can't justify the parts that actually make sense like for example the Golden Rule, not lying, stealing, murdering etc. That is the part that is beyond me.

yellowhand
05-03-2012, 20:35
I read a NASA report that said, in part recently planet Earth just might be the only planet with life on it, as we understand life with todays level of understanding.
Now, if one day that turns out to be really true, Wow!
Of the billions upon billions of stars and even more planets, now that would something.
Just thought I;d toss that into the conversation.

Bren asked, How did I come to know my faith was true and correct, for me, or something close to this.
My answer is simply, I just knew, I took it on faith, it felt correct. I have no desire to know everything, and know I never will.

My people, fellow Jews, have a shared faith based history going back unbroken for roughly 3800 years.
A Jew from 3000 years ago, could come forward in time to today, and would be able to understand our Sabbath services and our prayers and would understand and know that he or she was among fellow Jews.
Old school, we don't change, and have been murdered for not changing through out our long history.

My education tells me that science, compared to the history of the Jews and that of say the Catholic church is a relative new comer onto the world history stage.
My folks were writing down history, when most of the people in the world were still trying to learn why it was not a good idea to drop a load of poop by the camp fire and what they planned to eat that evening.

My education tells me that most men of science were also men of faith, many of very deep held faith. I believe that is still true today.

There is room enough for everyone to hold or not hold to a faith base religion.

Darn good discussion.:tongueout:

ksg0245
05-03-2012, 21:35
It is based on guesses on origins,

No, it's based on evidence and observation.

which many eagerly accept in lieu of God.

No, many eagerly accept the objective verifiable evidence of evolution in lieu of no alternative objective verifiable evidence of for example deities because there's one and not the other.

It is the great escape mechanism of modern man where man looks for intellectual justification for escape from personal responsibility to his Creator.

Escape from the personal responsibility of being exactly how the omniscient omnipotent creator created them and then punishes his creation for?

First tell me what evidence you would find acceptable after 2,000 years.

Something from the actual time of the event would be a start. Why did everyone wait so long to write stuff down? Did nobody notice the miracles when they first happened?

Who would knowingly die for a lie?

Who claims anyone knowingly died for a lie?

void *
05-03-2012, 23:43
I read a NASA report that said, in part recently planet Earth just might be the only planet with life on it, as we understand life with todays level of understanding

is this report available online?

yellowhand
05-04-2012, 00:24
is this report available online?


http://www.eutimes.net/2012/04/us-scientists-say-earth-may-be-the-only-planet-with-life/

I think I read it in the Dailymail, but this has about the same thing
The one I read had Nasa, but this one is from MIT folks, I'll look for it Monday, the exact one,got it saved on my office computer, maybe???

void *
05-04-2012, 00:54
The one you linked to mentions NASA, but only peripherally, the paper is by folks from Princeton, and it looks like what they're saying is not "Earth might be the only planet with life" but "we can't draw statistical conclusions about the probability of life elsewhere based on life arising quickly on Earth" ( that's all paraphrased, and "quickly" is in an astrophysical sense).

Wondering if they've made the actual paper generally available.

aujrb
05-04-2012, 18:33
If his answer concerned a belief in anything other than religion, or probably even a non-judeo/christian/muslim religion, we'd all be agreeing that he's crazy and needs treatment for the imaginary voises in his head. The "God tells me" answer is an improvement over the quasi-dishonest answers, but it offers nothing to differentiate it from a guy who knew his neighbor's dog was satan, commanding him to shoot people with a .44 mag.

If you guys could please bear with me, I would like to take a moment to clear up something from my previous post.

If anybody out there thinks that I heard a spoken word or a voice from God, I would like to apologize because that is not what I meant.

I did not hear the literal voice of God. What I did hear was the Gospel proclaimed by a person. When I heard the Gospel, the Holy Spirit regenerated me (i.e. caused be to be born again) & I received the repentance to turn to God & from my sin and faith to believe in God. (I'm not exactly sure about the order.)

I'm also not exactly sure when I was born again (the date and time) or which Gospel proclamation I heard(they have many witnessing encounters on the radio program.)

Do I communicate with God? Is it two way communication? Well yes, but it's not like a chat I would have with a friend.

I talk to God through prayer.

I hear from God through His Word (in other words, when I read the Bible). The Bible is the only inerrant, infallible communication we have from God. Some guy saying "God told me to say this or that" is a false prophet.