Canadians pay more in taxes than for necessities [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Vic777
05-04-2012, 14:12
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/04/26/canadians-pay-more-in-taxes-than-basic-necessities-report

fgutie35
05-04-2012, 14:35
My oldest brother is canadian. He pays half of his paycheck in taxes. How else is the Gov. be able to afford to give free pot, coke and heroin to the poor drug addict "victims"?:steamed:

Brucev
05-04-2012, 16:26
Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... even though it is not run according to the precepts of trickle down. You know.

Vic777
05-05-2012, 03:56
Explain why this is a problem?Do you work for the Government? Or perhaps you teach school?

Actually Canadians were temporarily saved by Obama .... they saw what America did and elected Harper.

Brucev
05-05-2012, 05:42
Do you work for the Government? Or perhaps you teach school?

Actually Canadians were temporarily saved by Obama .... they saw what America did and elected Harper.

Work for the "gobment?" Perish the thought. Teach school? No. Why should any of the foregoing matter? Would it be any different if one were a policeman, fireman, soldier, street worker? Govt. employes are after all, govt. employes. Are do you have an Orwellian world view, i.e., some pigs are more equal that other pigs. You know.

Now, why not answer the question that was asked? I.e., "Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... even though it is not run according to the precepts of trickle down. You know"

Please respond with something other than talking points, emotion, etc. But do explain why a more broadly middle class economy is less to be preferred than a the current situation in the U.S. where the middle class is shrinking while the "top" gets richer and everyone else gets poorer. Seems a govt. should be so structured to best benefit the broadest majority of its citizens and not simply benefit the few who can buy representation.

Vic777
05-05-2012, 09:44
Now, why not answer the question that was asked? I.e., "Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... I did answer, I told you Canadians got terrified with what they saw happening in the USA and elected Harper.

Lethaltxn
05-05-2012, 10:57
Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... even though it is not run according to the precepts of trickle down. You know.

For starters they allow exploration of oil resources unlike the US, tag that with the fact that their deficit is only about 50-60 billion as opposed to almost 2 trillion.
Those are just a couple of things I can think of off the top of my head.
I find it interesting that you don't find paying more in taxes than basic necessities a problem. But that is your MO though.

aircarver
05-05-2012, 11:01
Hey, taxes are great..... as long as someone else pays them ..... :upeyes:

.

FLIPPER 348
05-05-2012, 11:16
Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy...


ouch

....and despite the goofy rumors they are quite happy with their healthcare system

Lethaltxn
05-05-2012, 11:52
ouch

....and despite the goofy rumors they are quite happy with their healthcare system

Yeah, not really. But you keep pushing that idea.
I find it interesting that someone who supposedly fought for our freedoms in the military, assuming based on your avatar, is so willing to accept a loss of those freedoms. :dunno:

Brucev
05-05-2012, 20:52
I did answer, I told you Canadians got terrified with what they saw happening in the USA and elected Harper.

You have an opinion. Cool. Everyone does, just like noses. But, facts are hard things. And you do not seem to be able to deal with hard facts, just opinions.

Brucev
05-05-2012, 20:59
For starters they allow exploration of oil resources unlike the US, tag that with the fact that their deficit is only about 50-60 billion as opposed to almost 2 trillion.
Those are just a couple of things I can think of off the top of my head.
I find it interesting that you don't find paying more in taxes than basic necessities a problem. But that is your MO though.

So... given that the Canadians have greater regulation of business, even oil and gas exploration, you are saying that the U.S. needs to adopt the Canadian model so that we can have increased exploration?

As to the deficit, given that the Canadian model is not trickle down let the rich get richer and the devil take the hindmost but rather a more "managed" economy, it would appear that the U.S. would be better off with higher taxes on high income earners, etc.?

Not concerned about paying more in taxes that necessities? No. I am not impresses with agenda driven statements. For the record one does not see the equivalent of tea party protesters or occupy protesters in the streets of Canada. Recon why?

Brucev
05-05-2012, 21:03
ouch

....and despite the goofy rumors they are quite happy with their healthcare system

The only ones who complain are those who can't use it to get boutique medical care.

The main reason I oppose the squatter's program is that I want him and his regime to fail.

Gunhaver
05-05-2012, 22:50
ouch

....and despite the goofy rumors they are quite happy with their healthcare system

This is true. I have 3 Canadian friends and I've asked them all about it. They have no complaints at all and 2 of them run their own businesses.

But Fox News begs to differ so it can't be true, right?

podwich
05-05-2012, 23:11
Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... even though it is not run according to the precepts of trickle down. You know.

Non sequitur. The issue is Canadians being taxed a rather large (and increasing) portion of their income. You bring up a bit of economic theory. You might as well comment on the doneness of a steak.

callihan_44
05-05-2012, 23:16
The median wait time in Canada is nearly double the wait time that physicians consider clinically reasonable. This is why you see canadians that can afford it slipping over the border to get care here.....It aint perfect in canada folks...

FLIPPER 348
05-05-2012, 23:52
The median wait time in Canada is nearly double the wait time that physicians consider clinically reasonable. This is why you see canadians that can afford it slipping over the border to get care here.....


Fox News is a wonderful thing!

walt cowan
05-06-2012, 09:17
when you add up fed, state, county, city, sales taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes and other such nonsense...your well above the 50% mark. you'll never get anything back unless your the 50% who don't pay anything.

callihan_44
05-06-2012, 09:43
Fox News is a wonderful thing!

oh so your trying to imply it's a lie? Do you have proof they get instant care then? Because this> http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-681801.html
says otherwise...is cbs truthful enough for you?

pugman
05-06-2012, 10:29
Work for the "gobment?" Perish the thought. Teach school? No. Why should any of the foregoing matter? Would it be any different if one were a policeman, fireman, soldier, street worker? Govt. employes are after all, govt. employes. Are do you have an Orwellian world view, i.e., some pigs are more equal that other pigs. You know.

Now, why not answer the question that was asked? I.e., "Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... even though it is not run according to the precepts of trickle down. You know"

Please respond with something other than talking points, emotion, etc. But do explain why a more broadly middle class economy is less to be preferred than a the current situation in the U.S. where the middle class is shrinking while the "top" gets richer and everyone else gets poorer. Seems a govt. should be so structured to best benefit the broadest majority of its citizens and not simply benefit the few who can buy representation.

Explain why this is a problem? The Canadian economy is in much better shape that the U.S. economy... even though it is not run according to the precepts of trickle down. You know.

I think you have a very skewed view of the "top" and what exactly is the top defined as..1%...10%.

As I told my wife, the "top" 50% of wage earners in the U.S make a staggering $33,058 a year per the IRS D-base. That's right folks - stock shelves at Target and work a pt bartending gig a few nights a week and you are in the richest 50%.

For the record, the top 1% earn about $334K a year and the top 10% $133K.

Why is this a problem from a middle classer such as myself - simple. The U.S will squeeze as much as it can from whomever it can until it can't take any more...then it will move on to the next group of people.

In reality, governments should work to take less and less from people. I realize and understand they need money to provide some services - but when you look at the fraud, waste and abuse the government allows its amazing. Want a perfect example?

Two years ago my local school district pushed through a $38 million dollar school referendum to upgrade the local middle school...they got the money.

I just received a mailer asking if I would support another $18 million dollar referendum to allow them to BUILD a brand new middle school?

Why would you ask for $38 million to upgrade a property you want to replace two years later???

The old property then would be used as a community center? News Flash: my small town has a population of about 5,000 which doubles to 10,000 in the summer when people come and live in the 8 or so trailer parks around the lake. Then you have the additional maintenance cost which is something governments never understand. Point in fact: A fence along the U.S border so many seem to want. I agree something needs to be done about illegals but putting up a $10 billion fence will cost how much annually to maintain, repair, and monitor?

Why does a town of 5,000 people need a $40 million dollar community center? I would rather have my $16,000 back (8K for me and my wife) which I know I would put to better use.

Or how about this: introduce my MIL.

A 58 year old 2+ pack a day smoker who is now on permanent disablility because of her own personal actions (aka smoking) which caused her to develop COPD.

She receives disability, food stamps, heat assistance, medicaid, px assistance, travel vouchers and discounted rent. Believe it or not she has free cable.

She pays $276 a month from her disability check towards rent - otherwise pretty much everything else is free to her....and the other shoe.

She continues to smoke albeit now only 1.5 packs a day because cigerettes are getting so expensive. By her own account she spends $350/month towards cigerettes.

FLIPPER 348
05-06-2012, 10:43
...is cbs truthful enough for you?



No, I deal with actual Canadians, many of them for many years. None I have met have any negative issues with their healthcare system.

callihan_44
05-06-2012, 10:54
No, I deal with actual Canadians, many of them for many years. None I have met have any negative issues with their healthcare system.

You never presented ANY info that they get instant treatment in their system either...Why do border cities in the US have arrangements with the canadian gov to provide care that cant be recieved immediately in canada? I guess that's a lie also? It's not perfect either you just choose to drink the koolaid.

series1811
05-06-2012, 12:16
Fox News is a wonderful thing!


Sure not hard to pick out the liberal/Democrat/Obama supporters.

FLIPPER 348
05-06-2012, 12:26
I supported Obama over the options but I am no Liberal or Democrat. Getting us out of Iraq was more important than 4-8 years of McCain/Palin.


Seeing the current option I will proudly do so again.

series1811
05-06-2012, 12:28
I supported Obama................I will proudly do so again.


Tell us something we hadn't all figured out already.

FLIPPER 348
05-06-2012, 12:40
...ok, the better 1/2 and I just have a lovely walk up the butte and in a few hours a few of the boyz are coming over. We will be heading out into the desert with some guns and beer for some magnum therapy. The theme today is .357s, rifles/pistols. Some of us will be voting for Mittens, some will vote for President Obama and politics will be discussed.

series1811
05-06-2012, 12:51
...ok, the better 1/2 and I just have a lovely walk up the butte and in a few hours a few of the boyz are coming over. We will be heading out into the desert with some guns and beer for some magnum therapy. The theme today is .357s, rifles/pistols. Some of us will be voting for Mittens, some will vote for President Obama and politics will be discussed.

I'm sure it will be fascinating.

Vic777
05-06-2012, 15:12
For the record one does not see the equivalent of tea party protesters or occupy protesters in the streets of Canada. Recon why?Back in the days of the original Tea Party, those who wanted the Government Protection provided by England fled to Canada. They were called United Empire Loyalists. Canadians are descended from this stock. Their Ancestors are those who would rather live under Big Brothers protection than as Free Men.

Brucev
05-06-2012, 19:04
Back in the days of the original Tea Party, those who wanted the Government Protection provided by England fled to Canada. They were called United Empire Loyalists. Canadians are descended from this stock. Their Ancestors are those who would rather live under Big Brothers protection than as Free Men.

Odd. Thought this discussion was about taxes. Didn't know it was just a emotional exchange of opinions on the American Revolution. But, lacking a good answer, perhaps trying to divert attention will allow one to avoid that little problem.

Brucev
05-06-2012, 19:15
Non sequitur. The issue is Canadians being taxed a rather large (and increasing) portion of their income. You bring up a bit of economic theory. You might as well comment on the doneness of a steak.

The whinning about taxes is inseparable from discussion of the economy. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. As to steaks... I like mine grilled... medium well thank you.

podwich
05-06-2012, 21:08
The whinning about taxes is inseparable from discussion of the economy. Like it or not, that's just the way it is. As to steaks... I like mine grilled... medium well thank you.

Whining about taxes is inseparable from the economy? WTH? Maybe in your world.

Vic777
05-06-2012, 21:35
Odd. Thought this discussion was about taxes. Didn't know it was just a emotional exchange of opinions on the American Revolution. But, lacking a good answer, perhaps trying to divert attention will allow one to avoid that little problem.Brucev, my boy, you're the one who wanted to talk about the "Tea Party".

walt cowan
05-07-2012, 06:51
I supported Obama over the options but I am no Liberal or Democrat. Getting us out of Iraq was more important than 4-8 years of McCain/Palin.


Seeing the current option I will proudly do so again.

so...hows that war thingy working out for ya? still got 4 more years of wars and started some new ones too.:whistling:

walt cowan
05-07-2012, 06:54
...ok, the better 1/2 and I just have a lovely walk up the butte and in a few hours a few of the boyz are coming over. We will be heading out into the desert with some guns and beer for some magnum therapy. The theme today is .357s, rifles/pistols. Some of us will be voting for Mittens, some will vote for President Obama and politics will be discussed.

if either mittens or barry have their way...your guns will be taken and you'll become camp fed members.

Cavalry Doc
05-07-2012, 07:21
No, I deal with actual Canadians, many of them for many years. None I have met have any negative issues with their healthcare system.

What abut the ones you never got a chance to meet, Because they are dead?

series1811
05-07-2012, 08:07
Odd. Thought this discussion was about taxes. Didn't know it was just a emotional exchange of opinions on the American Revolution. But, lacking a good answer, perhaps trying to divert attention will allow one to avoid that little problem.

It seems from the title it is about Canadians and taxes.

And, the fact that Canadians are more like Democrats than Republicans, probably does make Canada look like utopia to Democrats.

Brucev
05-07-2012, 09:43
It seems from the title it is about Canadians and taxes.

And, the fact that Canadians are more like Democrats than Republicans, probably does make Canada look like utopia to Democrats.

If by this logic demokrats are more like Canadians so that Canada is utopia, then it would follow that republicans are more like the Russians so that post soviet Russia is utopia.

Actually the simple fact is that the economy of Canada is in better shape for the same period of time examined than the economy of the U.S. Now this is problematic for those who want to insist that capitalism unrestrained is the best producer of the broadest good as Canada has a less capitalistic more socialistic structure, yet has produced that very broader good that would not be expected... if trickle down voodoo really worked.

If the true believers of whatever stripe don't like this, well, it is a lump they'll just have to accept. It is reality. And actual experience with reality trumps theory every time. Don't agree. Fine. Demonstrate a unrestrained capitalist system that has produced broad good for the citizens of a nation apart from anyone tweaking the system (i.e., nasty little aspect of socialism). Don't complain that such unrestrained capitalism has never been allowed to work on its own, that it's always been hindered, etc. by whatever or whomever. Those are the same excuses socialist make. Because reality is that unrestrained capitalism will never do anything more than create opportunity for those who have money and perpetual nothing for those who do not. And reality is that absolute socialism crushes any individual initiative, etc. About the best that can be done is a managed capitalism in which the interest of the broad majority are determinative rather than the interest of the narrow few.

Gundude
05-07-2012, 10:08
Actually, if you look at the value you get from the amount of taxes you pay, Canada looks better than the US.

The US has extremely high taxes for the relatively low level of services the average person can expect from the government.

Not saying that the government should be providing more services, but we have the worst of both worlds here: high taxes and low service.

I would prefer a low tax/low service government. But it's hard to argue that a high tax/low service government is better than a high tax/high service government like Canada's.

Gundude
05-07-2012, 10:15
Don't complain that such unrestrained capitalism has never been allowed to work on its own, that it's always been hindered, etc. by whatever or whomever. Those are the same excuses socialist make.That's an important point. A system's adherents always claim that if the system was allowed to work like it's "supposed" to, it'd be just great. Well guess what? All the corruption that makes its way into the system is invited by that system. The system is in fact flawed by encouraging and allowing for that corruption.

series1811
05-07-2012, 10:16
If by this logic demokrats are more like Canadians so that Canada is utopia, then it would follow that republicans are more like the Russians so that post soviet Russia is utopia.

That's your logic? That Russia is more like Republican doctrine than DNC doctrine? Okay, I'll try and fit that square peg into the round hole. :dunno:

Actually the simple fact is that the economy of Canada is in better shape for the same period of time examined than the economy of the U.S. Now this is problematic for those who want to insist that capitalism unrestrained is the best producer of the broadest good as Canada has a less capitalistic more socialistic structure, yet has produced that very broader good that would not be expected... if trickle down voodoo really worked.

If the true believers of whatever stripe don't like this, well, it is a lump they'll just have to accept. It is reality. And actual experience with reality trumps theory every time. Don't agree. Fine. Demonstrate a unrestrained capitalist system that has produced broad good for the citizens of a nation apart from anyone tweaking the system (i.e., nasty little aspect of socialism). Don't complain that such unrestrained capitalism has never been allowed to work on its own, that it's always been hindered, etc. by whatever or whomever. Those are the same excuses socialist make. Because reality is that unrestrained capitalism will never do anything more than create opportunity for those who have money and perpetual nothing for those who do not. And reality is that absolute socialism crushes any individual initiative, etc. About the best that can be done is a managed capitalism in which the interest of the broad majority are determinative rather than the interest of the narrow few.

Thank you for reminding us, that socialists do walk among us, (and, that you really don't want to be identied as such). And, that you do believe.

Gundude
05-07-2012, 10:28
Back in the days of the original Tea Party, those who wanted the Government Protection provided by England fled to Canada. They were called United Empire Loyalists. Canadians are descended from this stock. Their Ancestors are those who would rather live under Big Brothers protection than as Free Men.I guess by that logic, the people who now live in Massachusetts are the truest patriots of all, their ancestors being the ones who got the ball rolling.

Do we want the rest of America to be more like Massachusetts?

Oh, right. We want Romney as prez. I guess there's my answer.

FLIPPER 348
05-07-2012, 11:00
so...hows that war thingy working out for ya? still got 4 more years of wars and started some new ones too.:whistling:

I don't recall any he started but we are out of Iraq IAW with the timeline. And we will get out of Afghanistan. That would never have happened with McCain. Did you see how upset he was when President Obama brought our troops home??

FLIPPER 348
05-07-2012, 11:04
I'm sure it will be fascinating.

It was fun. And we cleaned up after ourselves unlike the Obama hating rednecks who shoot out on the BLM and leave all their 'targets' (trash) behind.

Bobb G
05-07-2012, 11:10
Explain why this is a problem?

Uhhhh...because they pay 50%..HALF of their pay into taxes. That's enough reason in itself???? :dunno:

Cavalry Doc
05-07-2012, 11:26
It was fun. And we cleaned up after ourselves unlike the Obama hating rednecks who shoot out on the BLM and leave all their 'targets' (trash) behind.

Another example of a malfunctioning cause and effect processor.

Do you remember the pictures of the national mall after the inauguration of Barry and Becks rally?

Littering is not a desirable trait, and it is not only attributable to the left or the right.

Gundude
05-07-2012, 11:31
Uhhhh...because they pay 50%..HALF of their pay into taxes. That's enough reason in itself???? :dunno:Depends. Once the average American family adds up their taxes, healthcare costs (insurance premiums + copays + deductibles), and post-secondary education expenses, they're not really paying any less than Canadians are.

In Canada, if you're healthy and don't go to college, you get screwed a little bit. If you're overeducated and always sick, you "luck out". For the average family, it's pretty much a wash. They're really not paying more than their American counterpart.

FLIPPER 348
05-07-2012, 11:34
Littering is not a desirable trait, and it is not only attributable to the left or the right.

It is 'attributable' out in the woods/desert 'round here, I've seen and shot with them. It's not the Obama voters who are leaving shot-up TVs out there!

Cavalry Doc
05-07-2012, 11:54
It is 'attributable' out in the woods/desert 'round here, I've seen and shot with them. It's not the Obama voters who are leaving shot-up TVs out there!

And you've tracked down all of the owners of each of these shot up televisions and pinned them down on their political philosophy.

I think that you are displaying prejudice, and your willingness to assume, if not an intentional untruth.

Brucev
05-07-2012, 12:06
Actually, if you look at the value you get from the amount of taxes you pay, Canada looks better than the US.

The US has extremely high taxes for the relatively low level of services the average person can expect from the government.

Not saying that the government should be providing more services, but we have the worst of both worlds here: high taxes and low service.

I would prefer a low tax/low service government. But it's hard to argue that a high tax/low service government is better than a high tax/high service government like Canada's.

Bingo! Exactly right.

Brucev
05-07-2012, 12:20
That's your logic? That Russia is more like Republican doctrine than DNC doctrine? Okay, I'll try and fit that square peg into the round hole. :dunno:

Are you dense? Come now. You can do better than that. Like it or not, the comparison is apt. Specifically it is as "logical" to equate a demokrats with a Canadian economic model as to equate republicans with the current post-soviet Russian economic model. And... the comparison is even more pointed and apt when one compares the wall street wingtip ganstas and the symbiotic relationship with congress with the equivalent criminals in russia operating under the gaze of the benign putin.

Thank you for reminding us, that socialists do walk among us, (and, that you really don't want to be identied as such). And, that you do believe. Reality bites. Deal with it. You and ever other citizen of the U.S. live in the reality of a managed economy, not a pure unrestrained capitalism. That is real life. Idealist can whine all they want to. But they have to live with reality.

Brucev
05-07-2012, 12:28
Uhhhh...because they pay 50%..HALF of their pay into taxes. That's enough reason in itself???? :dunno:

No. It is not. I like living in a city where the streets are paved, where there are sidewalks, etc. I like the idea of public schools where all children can get and education rather than that benighted reality of the old days when children went to school only if the parents could afford the fees, pay for the books, etc. I like the idea of pubic services such as police and fire, and libraries, and parks. I like the idea that people are required to keep their property clean and neat and not allowed to raise hogs and chickens in their back yard and throw their trash, etc. on in the back. I like the idea that businesses are not allowed to move into a area willy nilly but rather are required to locate, etc. according to zoning regulations. This of course extends beyond the local to the state and even the federal level. And... if this is socialism, then yes I like it and would say let's all have more of it. Actually, it is just modern life. Most folks do not long for dirt roads, etc., (fill in here with whatever it is that you miss from yesteryear... you know... shallow wells, children with worms, etc.).

Brucev
05-07-2012, 12:30
That's an important point. A system's adherents always claim that if the system was allowed to work like it's "supposed" to, it'd be just great. Well guess what? All the corruption that makes its way into the system is invited by that system. The system is in fact flawed by encouraging and allowing for that corruption.

It''s not the system. It's the men who run it. Man is desperately wicked to the core. It is the nature of man. There are none who are not so affected.

FLIPPER 348
05-07-2012, 12:37
And you've tracked down all of the owners of each of these shot up televisions and pinned them down on their political philosophy.

I

I've seen the rigs & bumper stickers of the guys who go way out in the wilderness and shoot tvs & leave trash. Sorry if the truth hurts you a bit!


(BTW- none of the plates were Canadian)

series1811
05-07-2012, 16:19
It was fun. And we cleaned up after ourselves unlike the Obama hating rednecks who shoot out on the BLM and leave all their 'targets' (trash) behind.


I meant the conversation of a bunch of liberals who are still impressed with Obama.

Cavalry Doc
05-07-2012, 17:02
I've seen the rigs & bumper stickers of the guys who go way out in the wilderness and shoot tvs & leave trash. Sorry if the truth hurts you a bit!


(BTW- none of the plates were Canadian)

OK, so that would be "No".

And prove the point you parsed from my question to you.

I think that you are displaying prejudice, and your willingness to assume, if not an intentional untruth.

The truth soothes me, especially when it shows that you were being a politically bigoted arse.

If there is honest criticism, please, bring it on. Pointing out the faults of others is the duty of a polite gentleman. But keep it real bro. Don't twist and skew stuff to fit what you wish reality was. How many of those rednecks are welfare miscreants that voted for Barry? You don't know. I know plenty of rednecks that voted for Barry. Ashamed to admit it, but my own mother-in-law voted for Barry, and she is about as backassward hick as you can find, but she figured someone would have shot him by now. Her numerous brothers aren't any better. And I know they crap on the environment, dumping their oil in the backyard.


The fact is that there are heroes and zeros in every group. Pretending that all the people that do an apolitical bad thing support a certain candidate or political philosophy is ignorant at best, and more than likely just plain dishonest.

Cavalry Doc
05-07-2012, 17:10
Not an example of all people, but one that is truthfully an example of people that showed up for Barry's inauguration.

http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3370/3214523581_0d5be3e9b2_o.jpg&sa=X&ei=B1WoT5fOBIXm2AXK-dynAg&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNE96ShgyO3XR-yhEp5ROLzsTeFllQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMrJE7J3fWU

As opposed to those far right wingnuts at Glen Becks rally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NioIQc6hA8M



Looks like lefties don't have a monopoly on personal responsibility.

:wavey: