Subcompact 1911s suck.... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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MD357
05-06-2012, 22:44
So says Mr. Pincus.

Rob Pincus on Sub-Compact 1911s for The Truth About Guns - YouTube


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/rob-pincus/rob-pincus-sub-compact-1911s-suck/comment-page-1/#comment-263325

Goes on to say 1911s shouldn't be used for SD work in the comments below the video..

Kinda funny he shows an EE Kimber as an example.....


Discuss.

fnfalman
05-06-2012, 22:50
What a joke.

He claimed to be a "teacher" and not an engineer so he doesn't know how the gun work.

If he's a teacher and he can't teach people how to operate their pistols; any decent pistol, then he's a suck teacher.

TFL_Rob
05-07-2012, 00:01
Yeah... uh... not exactly what I said...

More like: "I'm a teacher, not an engineer... I'm not interested in diagnosing why every subcompact 1911 anyone has ever brought to a class wasn't reliable."

When a non-gen-4-Glock malfs, I want to know why, because it is an anomaly. When a Kimber Ultra Carry Malfs, it is like the sun coming up... I don't get scared and hide in a cave, I go on about my business. That business is educating and advising people about issues related to personal defense. Those issues include picking appropriate gear. 3" 1911s are not appropriate gear.

-RJP

MD357
05-07-2012, 00:16
Yeah... uh... not exactly what I said...

More like: "I'm a teacher, not an engineer... I'm not interested in diagnosing why every subcompact 1911 anyone has ever brought to a class wasn't reliable."

When a non-gen-4-Glock malfs, I want to know why, because it is an anomaly. When a Kimber Ultra Carry Malfs, it is like the sun coming up... I don't get scared and hide in a cave, I go on about my business. That business is educating and advising people about issues related to personal defense. Those issues include picking appropriate gear. 3" 1911s are not appropriate gear.

-RJP

Depends on the setup, granted most factory sub 4" are finicky I will agree because that window is tight. I will say that I've seen plenty of custom 3" setups that would cost you some money in your bet, and in fact I'd wager an EMP would aswell.

Is it your belief that 1911s in general aren't suitable for SD work?

TxGun
05-07-2012, 01:35
Personally, I've never liked the subcompact 1911s very much because, IME, they are much more finicky as a group than the larger guns. I love the Government model (5") and Commander-sized (4"-4 1/4") guns, but Officer's (3 1/2") and below operate, as MD says, in a much tighter tolerance window and most 1911 problems I've experienced have been with the short guns, and I've had a few. I know there are some reliable ones out there...especially on the web :cool:...but I'm not much of a fan. There was another thread about "smallest, most reliable 1911", or some such, and I don't recall too many subs mentioned there...at least not 1911 subs.

TTM65
05-07-2012, 02:34
Yeah... uh... not exactly what I said...

More like: "I'm a teacher, not an engineer... I'm not interested in diagnosing why every subcompact 1911 anyone has ever brought to a class wasn't reliable."

When a non-gen-4-Glock malfs, I want to know why, because it is an anomaly. When a Kimber Ultra Carry Malfs, it is like the sun coming up... I don't get scared and hide in a cave, I go on about my business. That business is educating and advising people about issues related to personal defense. Those issues include picking appropriate gear. 3" 1911s are not appropriate gear.

-RJP

I can only say that you are not comfortable shooting the 1911 or you are using poorly manufactured 3" examples. I have yet to have one come back with a complaint of it not being reliable. Not only do I build them but I also carry one for SD. I would venture to say that I could complete any SD course of fire that you host as efficiently with a 3" 1911 as you can with your light weight plastic gun. Not a dig, not a fight, just plain facts.

Mayhem like Me
05-07-2012, 04:54
I can only say that you are not comfortable shooting the 1911 or you are using poorly manufactured 3" examples. I have yet to have one come back with a complaint of it not being reliable. Not only do I build them but I also carry one for SD. I would venture to say that I could complete any SD course of fire that you host as efficiently with a 3" 1911 as you can with your light weight plastic gun. Not a dig, not a fight, just plain facts.

I will tell you that based on my 25 plus years of instructing, that the math shows you to be wrong.

Sub 4 inch 1911 have shown more malfunctions/stoppages in classes I teach over the years than any other pistol type.

Even more than the .380s like Walther and Sig.

Can you get a reliable 3 inch gun? absolutely.

It is more difficult and it is running in a very fine sweet spot, they are less forgiving of loads grip and spring wear.

3 inch 1911's are not for most people if you can't diagnose the problems in your compact blaster you should look at another more reliable pistol configuration.

plouffedaddy
05-07-2012, 05:21
^^^^100% agreed. I also teach a new shooters a basic pistol course 2 or 3 times a month and Mr. Pincus is spot on here. If you asked me what the least reliable type of gun is the 3 1/2'' 1911 would be my answer. They just don't seem to ever work when the students bring them to class. :dunno:

phalanxr
05-07-2012, 05:57
I have a 3 year old Kimber ultra crimson carry II, itty bitty little ****er.

1000's of rounds through it and its notorious for not fully seating in the chamber. Will rack back and go almost all the way forward, so much in fact that to my eye I don't notice (And I shoot.... alot), I slowly pull the trigger, nothing. Slap the back of the Kimber, pull trigger, BAM.

Does it with every kind of ammo, and several new mags.

Fun gun though.

-Phal

faawrenchbndr
05-07-2012, 06:28
Why not just send it to Kimber and have it fixed?! :dunno:

TTM65
05-07-2012, 06:38
I will admit that I have fixed numerous officer sized 1911's in my shop, mostly Kimbers and SF's. Never a colt to date and I have shot my officer size in non professional shoots at the club. The difference is I do understand the little beast as well as tuning them. I guess that is the difference between a production gun built for maximum profit and a custom build. I still think it is what you are used to and how much your life is worth to you. Many times people come into the shop and ask for a "home defense" gun and want to spend $250.00 or less. I would imagine you get quite a few of these types in your classes or those who buy something because the "net" warriors said it was a good gun. They come to class and have no idea of how the gun actually works.
I still stand behind my custom officers size and the bad guy who ends up in the way of it had better not hope it is a POS 3" 1911 as it would be their last thought.

Dexters
05-07-2012, 06:44
The part of the gun that needs to be compact is the grip. That is the part of the gun that sticks out of you waist band. The barrel area is in your pants. The only reason to have a 3" barrel if you are really trying to cut weight.

I have the Kimber Compact CDP II - 4" barrel and 7 round grip - a good compromise.

HexHead
05-07-2012, 06:59
The Colt New Agent I had was one of the most reliable handguns I've ever owned. Hundreds an hundreds of rounds fired and not one single FTAnything. Ate everything I fed it without issue. It was Gen3 Glock-like in it's reliability.

glock2740
05-07-2012, 10:05
I haven't had any issues with the few 3"-3.5" 1911's that I own. But, that style of 1911 is known for being finicky, even more so than other sized 1911's. I think what Rob is saying, is that for the average shooter, the 1911 requires more training than the Glock/M&P/XD, which is true. And that I'm very sure that he sees more issues with 1911's over the striker fired guns, as he sees ALOT more of all of the above in action ALOT more than any of the rest of us. He has a valid point. I noticed he did say non-Gen 4 Glocks, as I'm sure he's seen the issues associated with these first hand. I'd be interested to know how the Gen 4 Glocks compare with the smaller 1911's. Also, it's nice to know that we have someone on the forum like Rob, who is a very knowledgable guy. I watch his show regularly and get some good information from it.

fnfalman
05-07-2012, 10:15
How many people that own subcompact M1911 are going to be doing ninja rolls and spetnaz flips while wallowing in muck for two days, shooting hundreds upon hundreds of rounds in order to defend themselves?

Wil Ufgood
05-07-2012, 10:20
How many people that own subcompact M1911 are going to be doing ninja rolls and spetnaz flips while wallowing in muck for two days, shooting hundreds upon hundreds of rounds in order to defend themselves?
http://words.brittina.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/zombie3.jpg

zackwatt
05-07-2012, 10:25
I have a Ultra CDP II, and I have only had one FTE in 300rds...and I think I limp-wristed it.

MD357
05-07-2012, 10:32
Here's one thing to consider, in the classes I've taken there are a LOT of guys that aren't used to shooting ~1500 rounds in two days. At the end of the first day, much less the second.... you have fatigue. Don't care which platform it is, I've seen someone limpwrist a G17 at the end of an 8 hour class. I've also seen a guy put down his G27 for a G19 loaner because of fatigue. I can't imagine shooting a compact .45 1911 all day and enjoying it. I'd also imagine a number of compact platforms would have trouble..... except an EMP and a G26.

TX expat
05-07-2012, 10:38
I can only say that you are not comfortable shooting the 1911 or you are using poorly manufactured 3" examples. I have yet to have one come back with a complaint of it not being reliable. Not only do I build them but I also carry one for SD. I would venture to say that I could complete any SD course of fire that you host as efficiently with a 3" 1911 as you can with your light weight plastic gun. Not a dig, not a fight, just plain facts.

Rob offered up a challenge on this site, down in the comments:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/05/rob-pincus/rob-pincus-sub-compact-1911s-suck/

Take him up on it!

fnfalman
05-07-2012, 10:38
Here's one thing to consider, in the classes I've taken there are a LOT of guys that aren't used to shooting ~1500 rounds in two days. At the end of the first day, much less the second.... you have fatigue. Don't care which platform it is, I've seen someone limpwrist a G17 at the end of an 8 hour class. I've also seen a guy put down his G27 for a G19 loaner because of fatigue. I can imagine shooting a compact .45 1911 all day and enjoying it. I'd also imagine a number of compact platforms would have trouble..... except an EMP and a G26.

That's for damn sure.

Rinspeed
05-07-2012, 12:19
What kind of idiot spends the money on training, which isn't cheap, and brings an unproven pistol with them. :upeyes:

countrygun
05-07-2012, 12:39
I (think) I get to play "Devils Advocate" on all sides in this. I have use the 1911 design since 1977. I am absolutely convinced that the Micro-1911s are a difficult concept to execute properly and reliably. I wouldn't buy one on those grounds. My wife however did not have the benefit of my years with the "platform" and therefore, without consulting me, bought a Kimber "Ultra Raptor II CS". The course of discussion at our home, on the night she brought it home, was not "uplifting" nor very positive. I sit here occasionally dining on a plate of crow. As soon as that pistol malfunctions I shall send up rockets and proclaim "Hallelujah". The outlook for the vindication of my attitude is not good however. The Bloody thing keeps working.

I do have to echo the observations of others by pointing out that one on the "complaints" about the 1911 system is familiarization, after all it has that complicated thumb safety which takes oh so many years to learn how to operate. The simple fact, around our house at least, is that a lot of the functional practice can be accomplished on a full sized, or more reasonably sized 1911 and the skills transferred to the micro, which is "carried a lot, shot a little" A couple of hundred rounds through it for familiarization and to assure function, and a couple of mags at each range trip to "check up" and it seems to fill it's intended function. There are a lot of things that neither I, nor my wife, would deliberately choose it for, but for it's "mission" it works well.

Would I buy another one?---" $%* NO!". I am not yet convinced that my wife didn't stumble on to some rare anomlie that suspends the laws of time space and basic physics. If she had dropped $1 in a slot machine and hit a $1,000,000 jackpot I wouldn't run around suggesting gambling as an investment strategy.

Alizard
05-07-2012, 13:21
What a joke.

He claimed to be a "teacher" and not an engineer so he doesn't know how the gun work.I do, and it is common knowledge that the shorter the 1911 barrel gets, the less reliable it is for cycling. Even some very high end 1911 "shorties" have problems.

holesinpaper
05-07-2012, 13:45
I will tell you that based on my 25 plus years of instructing, that the math shows you to be wrong.

Sub 4 inch 1911 have shown more malfunctions/stoppages in classes I teach over the years than any other pistol type.

Even more than the .380s like Walther and Sig.

Can you get a reliable 3 inch gun? absolutely.

It is more difficult and it is running in a very fine sweet spot, they are less forgiving of loads grip and spring wear.

3 inch 1911's are not for most people if you can't diagnose the problems in your compact blaster you should look at another more reliable pistol configuration.

I see no math. I see personal opinion based on personal experience.

Math would involve real data. Statistics. Stuff like: Number of students taught, a list of the models of guns used (i.e. Glock 19, Springfield Mil-SPec 1911, HK USP 9 variant I, etc), number of rounds shot per student per class per gun, number of malfunctions per student for each gun model, type of malfunction, et cetera.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying you are not actually backing up your opinion with math.

countrygun
05-07-2012, 13:51
I see no math. I see personal opinion based on personal experience.

Math would involve real data. Statistics. Stuff like: Number of students taught, a list of the models of guns used (i.e. Glock 19, Springfield Mil-SPec 1911, HK USP 9 variant I, etc), number of rounds shot per student per class per gun, number of malfunctions per student for each gun model, type of malfunction, et cetera.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying you are not actually backing up your opinion with math.

How many numbers in math?

fnfalman
05-07-2012, 13:53
I do, and it is common knowledge that the shorter the 1911 barrel gets, the less reliable it is for cycling. Even some very high end 1911 "shorties" have problems.

So...the guns fail once every how many rounds?

MD357
05-07-2012, 14:04
I see no math. I see personal opinion based on personal experience.

Math would involve real data. Statistics. Stuff like: Number of students taught, a list of the models of guns used (i.e. Glock 19, Springfield Mil-SPec 1911, HK USP 9 variant I, etc), number of rounds shot per student per class per gun, number of malfunctions per student for each gun model, type of malfunction, et cetera.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying you are not actually backing up your opinion with math.


Whoa now, let's not invite any significant critical thinking into the discussion. Anecdotes are apparently OK to make a foundation for assumptions in certain areas of the firearm "training" community.

Mayhem like Me
05-07-2012, 14:14
I see no math. I see personal opinion based on personal experience.

Math would involve real data. Statistics. Stuff like: Number of students taught, a list of the models of guns used (i.e. Glock 19, Springfield Mil-SPec 1911, HK USP 9 variant I, etc), number of rounds shot per student per class per gun, number of malfunctions per student for each gun model, type of malfunction, et cetera.

I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying you are not actually backing up your opinion with math.



When I kept the records the two guns that Were lumped in the worst were...Kimber shorty 45 acp and the Colt Officers model.

By a large margin they were causing stoppages that the shooter could not diagnose or clear quickly.

For two classes in a row I had shorty kimbers that would fire and eject every round but the last and it would stay in the chamber, slide would lock back and a new mag inserted woudl push into the chambered and fired spent round?WTF

I stopped counting and just started telling folks that they should really take a hard look at the 1911 and understand that the shorter guns are more prone to stoppages when all other things are equal..


Most guns were glocks, very few malfunctions, never had a sig 9mm die or a beretta 92 series gun.

H&K guns for the most part with some USP 40s having issues form time to time were good to go.

Mayhem like Me
05-07-2012, 14:16
I have range next week I will let you know the stats.

Should be at least 3 to 4 shorty kimbers and a bunch of glock 27's

Rinspeed
05-07-2012, 14:42
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=487688

fnfalman
05-07-2012, 14:47
1200-rounds in two days of training.

Wow. When was the last time anybody fired 1200-rounds of pistol ammo in two days of combat?

glock2740
05-07-2012, 14:53
1200-rounds in two days of training.

Wow. When was the last time anybody fired 1200-rounds of pistol ammo in two days of combat?
The zombies are coming man. Didn't you get the memo?

http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac341/OU1911/paranoia.gif

:tongueout: :rofl:

Ruggles
05-07-2012, 16:05
I have had reliable 3" 1911s and non reliable ones. Kimbers, Colts and Paras were the makers. Overall I am very suspicious of the reliability of 3" 1911s until they have proven themselves even more than other handguns I have own or owned. Just bad experiences with a Kimber UCII has soured me honestly. I did own a Ultra Raptor II that was extremely reliable.

That being said they are a joy to carry and fun to shoot. I carry a 4" 1911 these days but would carry a 3" if it ran for me.

Overall I think that 3" 1911s have more issues than either the 4" or 5" versions.

TN.Frank
05-07-2012, 16:06
I think I can elaborate a bit on this subject.
Auto Ordnance Pit Bull SubCompacts Suck
There, that should clear it up a bit.
All other Sub Compact 1911's can take a bit of tweaking to get them to run right but all in all they're actually pretty decent if they're done right.
I've got a Biker friend in Ohio that has an Colt Officer's ACP that's his EDC gun and he said it runs perfectly even with 7 round mags. So, you see, it depends on the manufacture of the gun as to how they set them up from the factory more then anything.
Personally, I like a Commander size gun but that's just me I guess.

Alizard
05-07-2012, 17:24
So...the guns fail once every how many rounds?Fail enough to have to go back to the mother ship for major rework. Just saying the obvious (basic physics): the mass of the slide is what drives the round up and into battery. Light mass slides don't have as much extra inertia to "cover a multitude of sins"..... in other words, compensate for other anomalies.

As somebody else pointed out: there are certainly some reliable subcomact 1911's, just don't bet your life on one until you are sure the one you have is in that group.

Alizard
05-07-2012, 17:25
All other Sub Compact 1911's can take a bit of tweaking to get them to run right but all in all they're actually pretty decent if they're done right.
That's basically correct, just make sure the extractor is tuned right and at proper tension and the feed ramp and throat are smooth so the round will feed smoothly. Assuming the gun is fitted right, it will be reliable. You also have to change the recoil springs about every 300 - 500 rounds since the reduced mass of the slide/barrel means the spring has to eat more of the recoil energy.

fnfalman
05-07-2012, 17:46
Fail enough to have to go back to the mother ship for major rework. Just saying the obvious (basic physics): the mass of the slide is what drives the round up and into battery. Light mass slides don't have as much extra inertia to "cover a multitude of sins"..... in other words, compensate for other anomalies.

As somebody else pointed out: there are certainly some reliable subcomact 1911's, just don't bet your life on one until you are sure the one you have is in that group.

Once again...how often do these guns malfunction?

I carry the Officer's ACP with a 7-round Wilson mag and another 7-round reload. Do I expect to have some sort of malfunction within 14-rounds if I were to have to use it for self-defense against some common thugs?

I'm not talking about running gun battles like Bruce Willis versus terrorists here.

BTW, that "lighter mass/interia" deal, that's bunk. Any decent engineer would have to recalculate spring constant rate to compensate for loss of mass. What do I know? I'm only a mere engineer.:dunno:

porschedog
05-07-2012, 17:52
My para ordnance warthog works fine every time I press the Loud button

Lockback
05-07-2012, 17:55
Having owned compact 1911s, I have to say they have been notoriously unreliable.
My G36, on the other hand, has been flawless. But then I haven't done a Pincus course with it either.

Nakanokalronin
05-07-2012, 18:24
Even though a subcompact 1911 is not anywhere near what is defined as a "combat pistol", my two Ultra Carry IIs and RIA Compact have had zero problems with any mags (Officer or full size from various brands) or ammo (ball & HP).

Guess these little guns just like me or I got 3 defective models. :dunno:

seanmac45
05-07-2012, 18:33
I'd love to see someone with a Sentinel take that challenge. It would be interesting to see the results.

TFL_Rob
05-07-2012, 19:05
I'll be sure to post here as soon as someone shows up and proves me wrong.

seanmac45
05-07-2012, 19:31
I meant no offense.

I just thought it would be interesting to see how a quality sub compact holds up.

Do you remember any of your students utilizing a Wilson Combat with bbl length less than 4 inches in your classes?

fnfalman
05-07-2012, 19:55
I'll change my mind when somebody can show me a documented case where a subcompact M1911's malfunctions caused somebody to be wounded or killed in a firefight.

bac1023
05-07-2012, 20:46
While I don't own any, I know the small 1911s have improved greatly in the last 5 or so years.

TTM65
05-07-2012, 21:22
Ok, someone sent me a link to a video and talked about a challenge. I can't download the video as I am in afghaniland and the net is quite slow here. Either way, I will gladly take the challenge if it involves shooting in a SD course of fire. I am posting a pic of the last 3" top end gun that I built for a customer. It is very similar to mine which I carry as a CC gun but I do not have pics of mine with me. THe major difference is mine has hand cut checkering, different sights and grips. Mine has had a few thousand rounds through it and I would not hesitate to take it to any fight. What are the stakes of this challenge?

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm203/ackf/CarryGun.jpg
Officers size upper, commander size frame, schueman hybrid barrel, 3 lb consistant trigger pull. This one has black sights mine has tritium. I used standard rosewood grips on mine.

Alizard
05-07-2012, 23:19
Once again...how often do these guns malfunction?

I carry the Officer's ACP with a 7-round Wilson mag and another 7-round reload. Do I expect to have some sort of malfunction within 14-rounds if I were to have to use it for self-defense against some common thugs?

I'm not talking about running gun battles like Bruce Willis versus terrorists here.

BTW, that "lighter mass/interia" deal, that's bunk. Any decent engineer would have to recalculate spring constant rate to compensate for loss of mass. What do I know? I'm only a mere engineer.:dunno:Yeah, I only have three engineering degrees but only one is in mechanical engineering.

How should I know how often a specific sample of one will malfunction?

That is called anecdotal analysis, it is worthless.

Do some research. The shorter 1911' are more prone to cycling problems period. That's not to say you can't make one work, but the design is less robust than a full size.

Alizard
05-07-2012, 23:22
While I don't own any, I know the small 1911s have improved greatly in the last 5 or so years.

Now I am really confused..... if shortie 1911's being less reliable than full sized was "bunk"..... why would they ever have needed to improve?:supergrin:

countrygun
05-07-2012, 23:32
I see the problem very clearly now. We have too many ^%$& "engineers" in the discussion.

Unlike normal average folks who rely on common sense it takes an engineer at least nine studies, 6 graphs, and fourteen charts before he can make up his mind about whether or not sticking his junk in a toaster is a good idea,or not.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Alizard
05-07-2012, 23:36
Since common sense is clearly lost here. here is a post from a gun wrench named 1911 Tuner who is one of the smartest 1911 gunsmiths I ever came across.


http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=54403

Why are short 1911s considered to be unreliable?

For the record...

Slide speed is only part of the problem with the chopped clones.

The abbreviated slides operate faster because they have less mass. This isn't a problem unto itself until the slide starts to return to battery. The reduced mass makes stripping the round and chambering it a little problematical unless it's going faster to make up for the loss of momentum. (Momentum=VelocityXMass) This is accomplished with a heavy recoil spring.

The problem with speeding up the slide is that it often outruns the magazine, leading to Bolt-Over Base and Rideover misfeeds. This requires speeding up the magazine...with another heavier spring...which imposes added drag on the slide via the next round up and its contact with the center rail. This works to delay the slide, especially when the magazine is at or near capacity, sometimes leading to short-cycle and failures to eject.

Because the heavier spring is also generally of a higher rating than standard...t tends to bleed velocity from the slide faster, and since Newton 3's dictum of equal and opposites is in full effect when dealing with momentum...and because the slide's momentum is equal to the bullet's...momentum loss occurs faster than with a standard slide and recoil system.

Lighten the spring to provide reliable slide cycle backward...and you lose critical forward momentum. Stiffen the spring to provide adequate momentum for reliable feed and return to battery...and you lose velocity rearward for positive ejection and/or the magazine can't keep up when the magazine is on the last round or two. Install a heavier magazine spring to get the timing of the cartridge rise on track...and you're back to applying added drag on the slide when it's full.

Then, just about the time you get it all worked out, and everything's runnin' like it should...shoot it about 5-6 hundred rounds and the recoil spring starts to take a set and soften...and you're back to return to battery issues.

Install a new spring...and if it happens to be just a bit stiffer than the one that you had workin'...and you get to start all over again.

This is why I repeat that little rhyme whenever I'm asked about the shorty 1911 variants:

"There was a little girl, who had a curl, in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good, she was VERY good! But when she was bad...she was horrid."

I just know that somewhere up there, John Browning is goin:

http://forum.m1911.org/images/smilies/laughing-horse.jpg

And sayin:

"Three inches??? You've GOTTA be yankin' my chain!Wow... almost sounds like what another gunsmith already posted in more abbreviated form. I learned from the best.

MD357
05-07-2012, 23:40
I'll be sure to post here as soon as someone shows up and proves me wrong.

Well bless your heart....... we definately need that validation.

holesinpaper
05-08-2012, 02:34
When I kept the records

Did you records include:

Manufacturer's name for ammo uses by each student (and grain)?

Manufacture's name of magazines used by each student?

Not just for 1911 users, but all students. Ammo and mags are key data points to gather when talking about reliability issues.

And fwiw, there's a huge difference between "keeping records" and using said records to generate useful information (actually crunching the numbers).

holesinpaper
05-08-2012, 02:40
For two classes in a row I had shorty kimbers that would fire and eject every round but the last and it would stay in the chamber, slide would lock back and a new mag inserted woudl push into the chambered and fired spent round?WTF

These Kimbers didn't eject the last "round?"

Oh, you mean shell casings for the last round fired. I think that's what you said, but honestly what you types makes virtually no sense imho.

That sounds like the extractor either needed adjustment or a new spring.

I'm not a 1911 guru, but that's my guess. I've heard that's a fairly easy adjustment to make.

matt_lowry123
05-08-2012, 06:22
Everybody watch out for the 2" and 2.5" barrels!!! That was probably the first time that guy has ever shot the thing. I'd say there's very few guns that couldn't make it through a day of training. I guess I lucked out with my 3" kimber and colt defender. I wouldn't pay for that class anyways. Who wants to shoot a target 5 feet in front of them!!! :rofl: :rofl:

fnfalman
05-08-2012, 08:10
Yeah, I only have three engineering degrees but only one is in mechanical engineering.

How should I know how often a specific sample of one will malfunction?

That is called anecdotal analysis, it is worthless.

Do some research. The shorter 1911' are more prone to cycling problems period. That's not to say you can't make one work, but the design is less robust than a full size.

Speaking of research, show me your research on shorter M1911s having cycling issues instead of wives' tales and supposedly "reports".

Anecdotal evidences indeed.

Engineer, heal thyself.

Rinspeed
05-08-2012, 08:32
Speaking of research, show me your research on shorter M1911s having cycling issues instead of wives' tales and supposedly "reports".




The best way to get this information is to ask those that have trained a bunch of shooters. Most of them will tell you mini 1911s are a poor choice. :whistling:

TFL_Rob
05-08-2012, 09:35
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old restored car as a daily driver to get kids to school, wife home with the groceries and to/from work. Can you? Maybe... but WHY?
Make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado statements you want... but, since you need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you NEEDED your gun daily, you'd probably think about it differently...

SpringerTGO
05-08-2012, 09:50
My Kimber Super Ultra Carry was unreliable out of the box. After wasting ammo for the supposed "break-in", it was still unreliable. So I sent it back to Kimber, and almost 2 months later, it came back unreliable.
Larger 1911's carry almost the same anyways.

Wil Ufgood
05-08-2012, 10:05
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old restored car as a daily driver to get kids to school, wife home with the groceries and to/from work. Can you? Maybe... but WHY?
Make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado statements you want... but, since you need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you NEEDED your gun daily, you'd probably think about it differently...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_H2Wk6C1u-l8/TC-c-VnBaCI/AAAAAAAAABk/Ft0B8-LywNA/s1600/south+park.jpg

fnfalman
05-08-2012, 10:11
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old restored car as a daily driver to get kids to school, wife home with the groceries and to/from work. Can you? Maybe... but WHY?
Make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado statements you want... but, since you need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you NEEDED your gun daily, you'd probably think about it differently...

And as far as "needing" your gun daily. How many times do you use the gun on a daily basis to defend yourself? How many rounds each time?

You actually drive the car, so yes, a modern car would actually be more reliable. You don't shoot your gun every time you walk out of the house, do you?

Once again, it's very easy question from my part. If I were to carry my Officer's ACP with a 7-rds Wilson mag with a 7-rds Wilson mag as spare, and IF I were to have to defend myself with it, will the gun malfunction within 14-rounds?

fnfalman
05-08-2012, 10:17
The best way to get this information is to ask those that have trained a bunch of shooters. Most of them will tell you mini 1911s are a poor choice. :whistling:

That's not "research".

That type of "research" is what gave us Marshall & Sanow's "One Shot Stop Percentage" study.

glock2740
05-08-2012, 10:24
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old restored car as a daily driver to get kids to school, wife home with the groceries and to/from work. Can you? Maybe... but WHY?
Make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado statements you want... but, since you need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you NEEDED your gun daily, you'd probably think about it differently...
Why would alot of SWAT and Tacticle teams carry 1911's if this is true? :dunno:

TFL_Rob
05-08-2012, 10:47
2740: simple answer: MOST teams don't. Harder answer: Even if they did, they don't use their pistols defensively as much as they use their car.

FNFAL, Outstanding example of missing the point... and making mine. Because you don't need your gun everyday, your brain rationalizes the inferior choice.

MAJ, is that a pic of you while you were reading my quote? A pic of the guys posting from being names that protect their actual identity ? I don't get it?

-RJP

seanmac45
05-08-2012, 11:15
TFL Rob

You've voiced your OPINION and that is what it is. Some of us have been around the block a time or two and have the skillset and the mindset to formulate our own opinions about what firearm we choose to carry.

You aren't any Jeff Cooper, brother. So come down off that mountain and stop pontificating.

Let's just agree to disagree.

TN.Frank
05-08-2012, 11:27
I'll put my V8 conversion S-10 up against any EFI POS on the planet for reliability. I can tune my Carb with a screwdriver, try doing with with an EFI car.
The 1911 design has been around now for over 100 years, I really don't think it would have survived all those years if it had been inferior in someway. The reason it's still around(just like Carbs) is because it's a simple design that works. Not giving up my Carb'ed V8 S-10, not giving up my 1911, they both do the job as well as or better then their more modern counter parts IMHO.

cyrsequipment
05-08-2012, 11:39
Wow. Apparently Mr. Pincus really touched a nerve with some of the internet tough guys. Take it easy children, he didn't call your *&^*^* small... or maybe he did, either way, get over it.
He stated his opinion, backed it up with several facts, and gave the doubters (whiners) a chance to prove him wrong. Instead of taking him up on the challenge, most of these twits just whined louder and louder and threw a fit.
Apparently, logic and an intelligent argument don't work with those that blindly think that anything that even looks like a 1911 and has a high price tag is infallible.

Grow up kids.

MD357
05-08-2012, 11:53
Wow. Apparently Mr. Pincus really touched a nerve with some of the internet tough guys. Take it easy children, he didn't call your *&^*^* small... or maybe he did, either way, get over it.
He stated his opinion, backed it up with several facts, and gave the doubters (whiners) a chance to prove him wrong. Instead of taking him up on the challenge, most of these twits just whined louder and louder and threw a fit.
Apparently, logic and an intelligent argument don't work with those that blindly think that anything that even looks like a 1911 and has a high price tag is infallible.


Make sure you mind the stepchildren.

countrygun
05-08-2012, 12:04
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old restored car as a daily driver to get kids to school, wife home with the groceries and to/from work. Can you? Maybe... but WHY?
Make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado statements you want... but, since you need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you NEEDED your gun daily, you'd probably think about it differently...


What worse than that is all of these people still using all kinds of knives, whose design hasn't changed in centuries. They are still using sharpened pieces of steel to cut things.
How people can depend on such primative technology is beyond my understanding. Don't even get me started on hammers either, I mean, there is no reason in this day and age they shouls still be selling what is, basically, a weight on a stick. Too old fashioned.

cyrsequipment
05-08-2012, 12:09
Make sure you mind the stepchildren.

Stellar retort...:upeyes:

MD357
05-08-2012, 12:20
Carrying a 1911 as a self-defense gun is kinda like driving a 50 year old restored car as a daily driver to get kids to school, wife home with the groceries and to/from work. Can you? Maybe... but WHY?
Make all the "carburetors are tried and true!" and "it was good enough for my grand-dad" bravado statements you want... but, since you need your car to work everyday, you probably drive fuel injected, modern automobiles. If you NEEDED your gun daily, you'd probably think about it differently...

I know right, because the 1911 never made it through several wars on the sides of guys that "NEEDED" their gun daily or anything like that eh?

Granted the local mall you protect might be a tougher environment than jungles, deserts, and European winters in your mind..... but we will have to leave you with your own little reality of what real world "need" is.

TTM65
05-08-2012, 12:24
TFL is just an idiot so I will not respond to his uneducated post any further.
Although I do not know the challenge, I will be most happy to defeat it once I return from afghaniland. I realize it will be a while but remember I said this twice today.

ArmoryDoc
05-08-2012, 12:39
What kind of idiot spends the money on training, which isn't cheap, and brings an unproven pistol with them. :upeyes:

You would be suprised. Even after being specifically TOLD to test fire the gun and make sure it's clean and lubed, many still don't heed the warnings. :dunno:

Wil Ufgood
05-08-2012, 12:51
Rob,

To be honest, I really don't put much credence into internet advice concerning my choice in weapons. One thing I do vet in training organizations, is the background of the instructors. What is your background? LE/Military is somewhat vague. For example if I were hosting a class. I would put
22 years as a federal leo
fbi certified firearms instructor
fletc certified firearms instructor
blah/blah/blah

Just curious

Rinspeed
05-08-2012, 13:12
TFL is just an idiot so I will not respond to his uneducated post any further.



He's entitled to his opinion, let's keep the personal attacks out of it.

TFL_Rob
05-08-2012, 13:38
TTM,

Lots of people have said that in the last couple of days... looking forward to seeing if you actually follow through.


This IS getting a little childish, so I'll step out.


-Rob Pincus
email rob @swatmag.com or stop by the I.C.E. Training Company Facebook page for any further legit discussion.

fnfalman
05-08-2012, 14:13
FNFAL, Outstanding example of missing the point... and making mine. Because you don't need your gun everyday, your brain rationalizes the inferior choice.
-RJP

No, you're missing the point.

You kept saying that you're needing your gun everyday, ergo you need a superior piece. What does needing your gun mean?

Do you shoot it a lot everyday at bad guys? Or do you shoot it a lot at targets in which a malfunction here and there doesn't mean squat?

Or do you carry it with you a lot? In which, a carried gun is a gun that is not in use.

glock2740
05-08-2012, 14:17
Even though I'm a huge 1911 fan, I CC a Glock of some sort about 75% of the time. I also own several M&P/XD/XDm pistols as well. Not because of problems with 1911's, as I have had very few issues ever with the 1911's that I own, and I have a few. :cool: I CC a Glock over the 1911 mostly due to weight. I feel just fine CC'ing a Glock or a 1911. You know what they say about opinions...:cool:

Alizard
05-08-2012, 14:18
Or do you carry it with you a lot? In which, a carried gun is a gun that is not in use.Non sequitur. A carry gun's use is protection and it certainly is doing that even if it is not being fired. Obviously, you want the carry gun's reliability to be as close to 100% as possible since it's firing will occur when your life is in imminent danger.... which is why some of us prefer wheelguns, but that's another story.:supergrin:

seanmac45
05-08-2012, 14:23
He decided to step out once someone asked for his curriculum vitae.

Very telling.

BTW the best firearms instructors that I have studied with didn't feel that which gun was utilized was important. To the best trainers what matters is the man behind the gun.

TFL_Rob
05-08-2012, 16:13
That was ridiculous, Seanmac... but, your trolling bait totally worked. My resume is but a google search away on many sites and referenced in many threads. The big non-secret: I never shot anyone. What I have done is spent most of my adult life teaching and studying defensive shooting and related fields. Well over a decade ago, when I was new in the industry, it was an interesting discussion at best: "Does it take combative experience to be able to teach combative topics?" ... well, that was answered long ago.

:yawn:

And, if you really think that "any gun will do, if you will do" bravado is real, ask that instructor if they feel fine with a Lorcin .380 in their belt the next time they go up against the elephant.
It's 2012, I like to think we've matured beyond that. There are way too many guns on the market with way too much diversity to even bang on that drum anymore.

:yawn::yawn:

There are a lot of 12 year old fan-boy basketball players that would choose a Michael Jordan Fantasy Camp over training with the guy who actually studied the game, the related physiology, physics and neurology ad nasuem and then coached the championship players.
For the current guys that want to win championships, talking to Jordan about "what is was like" could be interesting, informative, educational, valuable, etc... but the Jordans aren't generally running the practices or designing the drills that they use everyday to get better. Yes, there are exceptions... guys who have been involved in defensive incidents and studied the topic and developed themselves in the art of teaching it.... and like anything else, the farther back you go into our young industry, the more "been there done that" guys you will find leading the way... Who else could start teaching something that hadn't been taught? But also like any field, eventually there is a large enough interest and body of knowledge to allow it to be studied by those who may not have participated at the highest levels and yet still developed a valuable expertise that extends beyond anecdote and the limitations often created by limited personal experience and ego investment.

My recommendation: Learn what you can from both camps.

-RJP

glock2740
05-08-2012, 17:20
This thread is officially... :deadhorse:

TN.Frank
05-08-2012, 17:24
This thread is officially... :deadhorse:

More like::tequila:

Troubled Gecko
05-08-2012, 19:03
The external extractor design that Kimber used was a flop, they redesigned it a few times to no avail having to go back (thankfully) to the internal type. I honestly believe that this was the cause of the multiple fte's in the video.

The govt model, commander models are the only type I prefer to carry. The longer sight radius, full grip and less muzzle flip are my reasons but the other reason is the history of the micro 1911's being finickey.

dakrat
05-08-2012, 19:52
subcompact is for Glock

1911 makes officer size :supergrin:

seanmac45
05-08-2012, 20:18
I'll stick with the people I studied with and learned from thanks;

Jeff Cooper
Pat Rogers
Dennis Teuller
Larry Vickers
Ken Hackathorn

Cute videos though, LOVE the figure eight barrel dance.

countrygun
05-08-2012, 20:26
So, how about them Cubbies?:whistling: