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inzone
05-07-2012, 13:39
harbinger of things to come in U.S.?...... Europe aint lookin so good, I reckon U.S. may be headed down that same primrose path, I read somewhere that only about 47% of American adults pay any net income taxes and that we have over 50% of the population receiving some kinda transfer payments from govt..... even if some of that was earned, it still means a lot of outflow and not enuf inflow.... But I aint no Harvard economist!

nightwolf1974
05-07-2012, 15:37
first let me say, i have no quotable opinion about people getting some sort of check from Uncle Sam.

BUT i do see troubling times coming. anyone remember what happened in October 1929? the american people as a whole need to stop listening to elected leaders talking about "change", and see that the only change that is happening the country is spiraling down into a drain that ends in China!

our dependance on foriegn oil, foriegn finance, and foriegn commodities is weaking a fine country that once was not only the arsenal of freedom during two world wars, but a beacon of light and hope for the avearge person. :whistling:

bdcochran
05-07-2012, 17:35
The US has been printing money and trying to spend its way out of the recession. Printing money makes your goods cheaper relative to other monies where governments live within their means. Printing money means you retire existing debt with soft money.

When other countries do the same, the US will not be able to spend its way out of the recession, even if it tried.

Arsenal of democracy reflections. Everything was sold. The US even sold old destroyers. With the exception of the Soviet debt, I believe that most of the borrowed money used to pay for military goods sold to other countries was repaid.

You can[t be self sufficient in every commodity and it isn't wise to try to do so. You generate misallocations of resources when you insist on being self sufficient.

If you don't want coffee from Brazil, orange juice from Brazil, mahogany from South east Asia, pepper from Indonesia, fresh vegetables and fruits from Mexico, dress shoes from South Korea, sneakers from Taiwan, Ipads and Ipods from Red China, then you had better be prepared to pay more and have a lower standard of living.

UneasyRider
05-07-2012, 19:18
It is a ticking bomb... tic tic tic... and it won't be that long before it goes boom and out of the ashes will arise a new world order.

Lockback
05-07-2012, 19:22
The US has been printing money and trying to spend its way out of the recession. Printing money makes your goods cheaper relative to other monies where governments live within their means. Printing money means you retire existing debt with soft money.

When other countries do the same, the US will not be able to spend its way out of the recession, even if it tried.

Arsenal of democracy reflections. Everything was sold. The US even sold old destroyers. With the exception of the Soviet debt, I believe that most of the borrowed money used to pay for military goods sold to other countries was repaid.

You can[t be self sufficient in every commodity and it isn't wise to try to do so. You generate misallocations of resources when you insist on being self sufficient.

If you don't want coffee from Brazil, orange juice from Brazil, mahogany from South east Asia, pepper from Indonesia, fresh vegetables and fruits from Mexico, dress shoes from South Korea, sneakers from Taiwan, Ipads and Ipods from Red China, then you had better be prepared to pay more and have a lower standard of living.

I agree...and I'm posting this from an iPad.

sourdough44
05-08-2012, 04:14
The class warfare is astounding, the money is long gone & the takers just keep saying 'it's the bankers fault' & 'tax the rich'. The new pres of France tries to act like he has a new thought by calling for "growth". It's as if nobody thought of that before.

It seems any consensus is totally unworkable, brace for impact.

TangoFoxtrot
05-08-2012, 04:31
harbinger of things to come in U.S.?...... Europe aint lookin so good, I reckon U.S. may be headed down that same primrose path, I read somewhere that only about 47% of American adults pay any net income taxes and that we have over 50% of the population receiving some kinda transfer payments from govt..... even if some of that was earned, it still means a lot of outflow and not enuf inflow.... But I aint no Harvard economist!


We can tell. One of the facts you didn't state is that most of the income from taxes is mismanaged by the government. ie:

Overpaid politicians
Overpaid government contracts
Foreign aid to countries that give nothing in return.
Military occupations on foreign soil.
"Bridge to nowhere" projects
No oversight on welfare(fraud)

Just to name a few.

cyrsequipment
05-08-2012, 04:56
The new guy's "plan" is going to fail. The EU allowes people to move between countries with ease. Those that will be impacted by the higher taxes will simply move accross the border and not have to worry.
Having said that, if this increased socialism spreads beyond France (and it might) then those with money will be squeezed into fewer and fewer countries. Which could cause the ignorant liberals to begin resenting other countries in the union , and we all know what resentment in europe causes...

UneasyRider
05-08-2012, 05:10
The new guy's "plan" is going to fail. The EU allowes people to move between countries with ease. Those that will be impacted by the higher taxes will simply move accross the border and not have to worry.
Having said that, if this increased socialism spreads beyond France (and it might) then those with money will be squeezed into fewer and fewer countries. Which could cause the ignorant liberals to begin resenting other countries in the union , and we all know what resentment in europe causes...

Very astute observations!

Devans0
05-08-2012, 09:01
I would be shocked if France had voted for austerity. Since the French revolution, the national identity is egalitarian. I also am an outlier to this forum in that IMO that French are right. Austerity after a global economic crisis causes double dips/extended malaise. Government finances are NOT the same as family finances, but instead, a MegaCorp.

Counter cyclical spending gives more bang for the buck, seeds a recovery by getting money moving, and positions a company to buy assets at fire-sale prices to cash in on, when the recovery is underway. I really want to buy some bug-out land at these prices. The time for austerity is when money is fast and loose. Much of our current deficits come from servicing debt from overspending policies under so-called conservative administrations. Track spending from the walk, not the talk. MegaCorp bought the horse and the whole stable in the current race in America. ObamaCare is renamed RomneyCare.

I am more worried about Greece/Turkey/Spain..etc. A population of many radical young without jobs is a recipe for war. Look at the crazies from Iran 10-20 years ago.

cyrsequipment
05-08-2012, 10:55
Counter cyclical spending gives more bang for the buck, seeds a recovery by getting money moving, and positions a company to buy assets at fire-sale prices to cash in on, when the recovery is underway. I really want to buy some bug-out land at these prices. The time for austerity is when money is fast and loose. Much of our current deficits come from servicing debt from overspending policies under so-called conservative administrations. Track spending from the walk, not the talk. MegaCorp bought the horse and the whole stable in the current race in America. ObamaCare is renamed RomneyCare.

I am more worried about Greece/Turkey/Spain..etc. A population of many radical young without jobs is a recipe for war. Look at the crazies from Iran 10-20 years ago.

The problem is, they were spending "fast and loose" during the economic boom times as well. They gave more and more to the citizens without regard to long term consequences (sound familiar?). Now they have no money and they have massive debt. The new president's plan is just as stupid as Obama's plan to tax the rich.

I have little knowledge of France's demographics, but I'm guessing that thir population / wealth distributiuon is similar to what we have in this country. Assuming that is the case, even if this dolt taxes "the rich" at 100% (and the rich are stupid enough to stay in France) that still will not even dent their debt. The new guy's "plan" is just another form of class warfare, like Obama is trying to do.

These "plans" do nothing to solve the problem they pretend to, they only create scapegoats.

The problem in France (as well as this country) is SPENDING it is not revenue. France needs to end many of their govenment programs and allow the market to take over certain things... much like we need to do here.


As for Greece, Turkey and Spain? Exactly.

Andy W
05-09-2012, 09:24
The new guy's "plan" is going to fail. The EU allowes people to move between countries with ease. Those that will be impacted by the higher taxes will simply move accross the border and not have to worry.
Having said that, if this increased socialism spreads beyond France (and it might) then those with money will be squeezed into fewer and fewer countries. Which could cause the ignorant liberals to begin resenting other countries in the union , and we all know what resentment in europe causes...

I don't think the European nations will go to war again, if that's what you're hinting at. Besides the fact that they are so economically co-dependent, are their militaries even big enough to attack each other? It would just be France and Germany goign at at with maybe Turkey and Greece getting involved for a short time but I don't think they'd last long. They have enough problems at home.

bdcochran
05-09-2012, 10:03
When a country spends at a significant deficit rate, the amount of money in circulation increases. The money buys less (called inflation). However, the "value" of old fixed borrowing by the government goes down.

It is somewhat harder to understand, but when you devalue a currency, it makes the country's goods "cheaper".

The US has largely "paid" for the foreign wars in the last 15 years by borrowing and repaying loans with cheaper money.

Exports have been encouraged by devaluing the dollar.

So, what happens when France under the new government spends even more money that it doesn't have? It generates inflation and makes its goods cheaper.

To some extent, the US plan has been to inflate so that real property values don't appear to go down, so that old mortgages can be paid off with cheap money and "profits" can be higher and taxes collected on "profits" increase.

When France starts doing the same thing, then you have no "advantage" in trade and you stop exporting and producing as many goods. So, your unemployment goes up, the recession continues.

kirgi08
05-09-2012, 10:13
The EU is a failure.I hope Germany bails.'08.

cyrsequipment
05-09-2012, 12:50
I don't think the European nations will go to war again, if that's what you're hinting at. Besides the fact that they are so economically co-dependent, are their militaries even big enough to attack each other? It would just be France and Germany goign at at with maybe Turkey and Greece getting involved for a short time but I don't think they'd last long. They have enough problems at home.

Actually, I was referring more to the major riots they have had recently involving the austerity, budget cutting and even the racially motivated riots.

Bilbo Bagins
05-09-2012, 13:10
harbinger of things to come in U.S.?...... Europe aint lookin so good, I reckon U.S. may be headed down that same primrose path, I read somewhere that only about 47% of American adults pay any net income taxes and that we have over 50% of the population receiving some kinda transfer payments from govt..... even if some of that was earned, it still means a lot of outflow and not enuf inflow.... But I aint no Harvard economist!


I would say yes.

I have been creeped out recently by some who siad they are voting for Obama in 2012. When you ask them why, it comes down to that person's real or imaginary fear of losing some sort of government program benefit.

The 2012 election, just like in Europe is a vote for or against austerity. Hopefully when Obama loses, I honestly don't know how the other side is going to respond. will it be like every other US election in the past, or will it get ugly.

cowboy1964
05-09-2012, 16:35
The EU experiment is collapsing and the powers that be are fighting tooth and nail to save it because if they don't they lose their cushy jobs and powers.

Greece will be out of the Euro within two years and more will follow and that will be that, as they say.

cyrsequipment
05-09-2012, 16:39
The EU experiment is collapsing and the powers that be are fighting tooth and nail to save it because if they don't they lose their cushy jobs and powers.

Greece will be out of the Euro within two years and more will follow and that will be that, as they say.

While I agree that it should fail, there are too many people making money with the regulatory aspect of the eurozone for it to fail.

EU is going to act like a socialist government, throwing bones and gimees to states that are contemplating leaving until the entire system collapses on its own. BUt that will take a lot longer than a couple years.

Ruble Noon
05-09-2012, 16:52
I would be shocked if France had voted for austerity. Since the French revolution, the national identity is egalitarian. I also am an outlier to this forum in that IMO that French are right. Austerity after a global economic crisis causes double dips/extended malaise. Government finances are NOT the same as family finances, but instead, a MegaCorp.

Counter cyclical spending gives more bang for the buck, seeds a recovery by getting money moving, and positions a company to buy assets at fire-sale prices to cash in on, when the recovery is underway. I really want to buy some bug-out land at these prices. The time for austerity is when money is fast and loose. Much of our current deficits come from servicing debt from overspending policies under so-called conservative administrations. Track spending from the walk, not the talk. MegaCorp bought the horse and the whole stable in the current race in America. ObamaCare is renamed RomneyCare.

I am more worried about Greece/Turkey/Spain..etc. A population of many radical young without jobs is a recipe for war. Look at the crazies from Iran 10-20 years ago.

You might like this.

Bill Black: Austerity During a Serious Recession Is Economically Insane - A Warning From History

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/05/bill-black-austerity-during-serious.html?m=1

UneasyRider
05-09-2012, 20:17
You might like this.

Bill Black: Austerity During a Serious Recession Is Economically Insane - A Warning From History

http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2012/05/bill-black-austerity-during-serious.html?m=1

I have always thought that Klugman is an idiot. Cutting government overhead, lowering taxes and eliminating regulations on businesses has worked since Confucius said it.

barbedwiresmile
05-13-2012, 08:51
A few points relevant to this discussion:

Sarkozy was hardly a fiscal conservative. Remember the European definitions of left and right are somewhat different.

"Austerity" in Europe is a an Orwellian term. Generally it is used to describe the way politically connected, highly leveraged banks can remain solvent based on transfers from European taxpayers. It has little to do with structural political or economic reforms.

Ultimately, the new boss in France (like the old boss and the next boss) will not alter the fundamental political dynamics which, in essence, differ only by degree to those which exist in the US. The economy will remain centrally planned, tax rates will remain high, private banking losses will be subsidized by the public, and politically connected firms will create and maintain barriers to entry.

Implications for the EU? Tough to say. Germany has a problem as a net exporter. Someone has to buy their goods. And the prospect of a strong DM in a post-Euro world is somewhat unappealing when one examines the true state of Spain, Portugal, Italy, and, yes, France. But how long can the pigs be extended and pretended?

Implications for the US? Easier to manage an unabashed outright proto-fascist state then to pander to the ideal of "socialism". Not much protesting going on. Not much resistance. Compliant media. Compliant police. Our state has this thing figured out much better than the Europeans. I wouldn't expect much change in the short term.

pugman
05-15-2012, 07:33
I would say yes.

I have been creeped out recently by some who siad they are voting for Obama in 2012. When you ask them why, it comes down to that person's real or imaginary fear of losing some sort of government program benefit.

The 2012 election, just like in Europe is a vote for or against austerity. Hopefully when Obama loses, I honestly don't know how the other side is going to respond. will it be like every other US election in the past, or will it get ugly.

The other side has no plan.

An immediate family member was a member of Congress has told me personally the government's "plan" is to continue on its present course until some real world immediate and serious action alters its course. He did leave Congress voluntarily to pursue other career interests.

Downgrading our debt one notch isn't considered serious.

I have no disillusions my cousin has shared shadow government secrets with me or anything; but the point is there is no plan. In effect, our government is run like a game of musical chairs - just make sure you have a chair when the music stops.

rj1939
05-15-2012, 08:00
Amazing, we always try to borrow ourselves out of financial collapse. John Maynard Keynes came along with his scheme on economics and everybody jumped on board because it seemed so painless. Today we have Paul Krugman spewing the same crap...........both of them are just copying John Law, who was instrumental in laying the foundation for the French Revolution with his unlimited money scheme.

freesw
05-16-2012, 11:43
I have little knowledge of France's demographics, but I'm guessing that thir population / wealth distributiuon is similar to what we have in this country.

Not so.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/map-us-ranks-near-bottom-on-income-inequality/245315/

bdcochran
05-16-2012, 15:45
Now you ask yourself, what have you learned in this thread that promotes survival? Probably nothing.

One thing is very similar between France and the US. The top dogs in France and in US politics have a great deal of money.

The new "socialist" owns a house and two apartments (on the Quay) in Canne.

Axelrod has two condos in Chicago that are worth over $1 million each. And your "organizer" Pres is worth about $10 million.

cyrsequipment
05-16-2012, 16:59
Not so.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/09/map-us-ranks-near-bottom-on-income-inequality/245315/

Um, yea... that article seems real unbiased.

Calhoun123
05-17-2012, 05:25
I would be shocked if France had voted for austerity. Since the French revolution, the national identity is egalitarian. I also am an outlier to this forum in that IMO that French are right. Austerity after a global economic crisis causes double dips/extended malaise. Government finances are NOT the same as family finances, but instead, a MegaCorp.

Counter cyclical spending gives more bang for the buck, seeds a recovery by getting money moving, and positions a company to buy assets at fire-sale prices to cash in on, when the recovery is underway. I really want to buy some bug-out land at these prices. The time for austerity is when money is fast and loose. Much of our current deficits come from servicing debt from overspending policies under so-called conservative administrations. Track spending from the walk, not the talk. MegaCorp bought the horse and the whole stable in the current race in America. ObamaCare is renamed RomneyCare.

I am more worried about Greece/Turkey/Spain..etc. A population of many radical young without jobs is a recipe for war. Look at the crazies from Iran 10-20 years ago.


This sounds like you just took an econ 101 class. However, in econ 201, you learn that theory sounds great but has no basis in reality and doesn't work.

Bolster
05-17-2012, 14:47
This sounds like you just took an econ 101 class. However, in econ 201, you learn that theory sounds great but has no basis in reality and doesn't work.

That is a singularly obtuse misunderstanding of what theory is, and what it's good for. Devans' problem is he's bought into a discredited theory largely unsupported by evidence, aka Keynesianism.

We've never seen such a massive disconfirmation of a theory as we are witnessing now of ol' Keynes. FDR spent like crazy and bought himself a double-dip recession; so much for "spending your way out." Obama made FDR look like a piker on the spending side and he can't shake off this recession. Good ideologue that he is, he can see only one way forward:

More cowbell!!

freesw
05-20-2012, 14:28
Um, yea... that article seems real unbiased.

The data is from the CIA World Factbook.

The point is, that the population / wealth distribution of France is not similar to what we have in this country.

In my opinion, the US is increasingly a plutocracy, which is bad for all kinds of reasons. Having shed accountability to the people, hubris and irresponsibility at the top threatens the survival of all.

cyrsequipment
05-20-2012, 14:56
The data is from the CIA World Factbook.

The point is, that the population / wealth distribution of France is not similar to what we have in this country.

In my opinion, the US is increasingly a plutocracy, which is bad for all kinds of reasons. Having shed accountability to the people, hubris and irresponsibility at the top threatens the survival of all.

The "data" maybe from the CIA world factbook but the interpretation of the data is skewed by an economic theory that implies that "distribution" is based on simple raw income levels, as opposed to standard of living. The United States has a FAR higher standard of living across all income levels than most other countries.

As for my original statement, the wealth distribution might be different as a ratio, but "poor" in this country is much better than "middle class" in the countries that the website lists as having a better ratio...

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

BierGut
05-21-2012, 08:03
Klugman is an idiot. Cutting government overhead, lowering taxes and eliminating regulations on businesses has worked since Confucius said it.

^ this ^

pugman
05-22-2012, 06:42
i have always thought that klugman is an idiot. Cutting government overhead, lowering taxes and eliminating regulations on businesses has worked since confucius said it.

^ this ^

ftw.....