Differences: welfare, workfare, government employment. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Cavalry Doc
05-10-2012, 06:19
Is this a real job, or welfare? http://blog.oregonlive.com/o_impact/2009/03/large_wilson.river.jpg
Most gov jobs are no different today, than new deal jobs during the depression. Welfare plain and simple, welfare for 'doing something' like fighting the WoD or the WoT (i.e. TSA).

http://blog.cheapoair.com/image.axd?picture=2010/1/screening_airport.jpg

http://www.doobons.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/medical_marijuana_dea_raid621.jpg

Modern welfare ala New Deal busy work -- only vastly less productive than Roosevelt's New Deal jobs.


Moved from another thread.


Welfare is money for nothing. Workfare begins with a mission to give people money, then attempts to get something for it. Government employment begins with a need for services, and a person enters into an agreement to provide that service for a salary.

There is a difference. And if you don't agree that an identified service is needed, change the government so that that service is no longer seen as needed.

aircarver
05-10-2012, 06:26
Problem is... so many see the 'need' for 'services' 'cuz they're not paying for them ...... :frown:

.

eracer
05-10-2012, 06:30
It's no different than bailouts for Wall Street and the auto industry, or the $4b/month spent fighting an idiotic war in the middle east. The workers are just doing a job - some honorably, some not so honorably - and those who control the wealth make us pay.

We're told that certain companies must survive (pay your taxes, Mom & Pop shops, and oh, by the way, no one cares if you fail.)

We're told that we need to democratize a country that has been a tribal wasteland for millenia (pay your taxes, so that certain hand-picked companies with ties to those who run the government can profit from both the destruction and reconstruction of the infrastructure.)

The best part is that so many believe they live in a free-market economy, and could ever truly have a say in how our tax dollars are being spent. There's nothing 'free' about it, and we live in a society in which 'representation' has lost its meaning.

Cavalry Doc
05-10-2012, 07:02
Problem is... so many see the 'need' for 'services' 'cuz they're not paying for them ...... :frown:

.

In the case of employees, they pay taxes too. There
Is plenty of waste and fat that can be trimmed, but some level of service is actually needed. If I had the scalpel, I could trim a lot of fat. There is no need for a federal agency to have departments named Quality Management, Process Improvement, and System Redesign, especially when no quality is being managed, processes improved, or systems redesigned. The government is so top heavy with management that it is rediculous. I could tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end. Just as an example, consults for critical health care and preventative care that have no results. Just in 5 areas, pulmonology, gastroenterology, radiation oncology, mammograms and breast biopsy, 564 consults without results over 6 months old, 324 over a year old, 35 over 2 years old, and none have results. I cannot tell you if the service was paid for, if they got it somewhere else, or if it never happened. The leadership has been aware of it for 15 months, stated that the problem was fixed in December of 2011, and those numbers are from 20 April. The national level leadership, inspector general and a congressman have been involved, and yet, here we are.

There are too many managers not managing, and not enough front line workers, and the top managers are still "earning" bonuses for the great job they are doing.

Yes, it needs an overhaul.

Kingarthurhk
05-10-2012, 08:04
Let me help you with that:

Wellfare:

Revolutionary Politics Revolutionary Politics Judge Judy - Here's Who You Support With Taxes.flv - YouTube

Welfare Fraud At Its Finest - YouTube


Government Issued Cell Phone Fraud - YouTube

Workforce:

Google Perks - YouTube

Government work:

Special Forces Firefight - YouTube


US Border Patrol under attack - YouTube


010908 - Evidence of Mexican Military on US Soil - YouTube


Mexican Army in armed standoff IN AMERICA! - YouTube

Brucev
05-10-2012, 09:23
Quote:
Originally Posted by holesinpaper http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18946351#post18946351)
Is this a real job, or welfare? http://blog.oregonlive.com/o_impact/2009/03/large_wilson.river.jpg (http://blog.oregonlive.com/o_impact/2009/03/large_wilson.river.jpg)
Most gov jobs are no different today, than new deal jobs during the depression. Welfare plain and simple, welfare for 'doing something' like fighting the WoD or the WoT (i.e. TSA).

http://blog.cheapoair.com/image.axd?picture=2010/1/screening_airport.jpg (http://blog.cheapoair.com/image.axd?picture=2010/1/screening_airport.jpg)

http://www.doobons.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/medical_marijuana_dea_raid621.jpg (http://www.doobons.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/medical_marijuana_dea_raid621.jpg)

Modern welfare ala New Deal busy work -- only vastly less productive than Roosevelt's New Deal jobs.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHn0169C7UTcwsAePbvV1yqkvFMYFFSJdAf1yZ_LkxTF65jZbo


Moved from another thread.


Welfare is money for nothing. Workfare begins with a mission to give people money, then attempts to get something for it. Government employment begins with a need for services, and a person enters into an agreement to provide that service for a salary.

There is a difference. And if you don't agree that an identified service is needed, change the government so that that service is no longer seen as needed.

The above logos were added to better reflect reality.

G-19
05-10-2012, 12:46
Doc, thanks for the post.

Before spending the last 23 years as a Correction Officer I served 4 years as an electronic tech in the US Air Force. To some here that makes me the scum of the earth.

Ruble Noon
05-10-2012, 14:33
Moved from another thread.


Welfare is money for nothing. Workfare begins with a mission to give people money, then attempts to get something for it. Government employment begins with a need for services, and a person enters into an agreement to provide that service for a salary.

There is a difference. And if you don't agree that an identified service is needed, change the government so that that service is no longer seen as needed.

All the money for this comes from the same place, the tax paying private sector.

G-19
05-10-2012, 14:47
All the money for this comes from the same place, the tax paying private sector.

Yeah, to pay for a needed service.

Ruble Noon
05-10-2012, 14:51
Yeah, to pay for a needed service.

Welfare? Or are you referring to jobs held by public servants?

holesinpaper
05-10-2012, 15:20
Touched a nerve huh.

CAcop
05-10-2012, 16:00
Please, I beg you, please go to a fee for service LE model.

Your family member gets murdered? Pay up sucka. Latest average for a homicide investigation is $8 million. Don't have the money up front? Go play detective yourself.

Go hire Kroll and Associates for any of your investigative needs. See how much they charge an hour. Your local police are a bargin.

Better yet let's compare the bottom end. Our local security company that is the biggest pays their guards $10.50/hr. They charge $15.01/15min or $60.04/hr. They provide you with a person capable of citizens arrests, a uniform, radio, and marked truck with lights that can only be activated on private property. The only regulations that apply are that they must have a guard card.

Or you can hire us at $80/hr, which we get paid $48/hr. With us you get a standard police package. Most importantly we comply with POST standards. This is important becuase if we are being paid by you directly then all liability shifts from the city to you.

What is interesting to note is the difference in pay vs. charging. The private guard company wants to make a profit. We are non profit. If you go to a pay for services model we will be going to a for profit service.

So I beg you, please, go to a for profit model for police services.

holesinpaper
05-10-2012, 20:50
We are non profit.

Straight face?

callihan_44
05-10-2012, 21:04
we need cops/ fireman....do away with the Trained to Sexually Assault you

CAcop
05-10-2012, 21:19
Straight face?

Whatever we make in fees or fines are eaten up by our costs. Perfect example are traffic tickets. We get $26 from each traffic ticket which works out to about 5-10% of the total for a ticket. With me writing the ticket and records processing them we break even at best and more than likely come out behind.

We could pay people less but then we would have more openings. Right now we are running 5% short.

G-19
05-10-2012, 21:24
CAcop, Anytime now Certified will be along to accuse you of sucking off the Govt. teat and to tell you how he wishes you would lose your job and starve. To him, you only have a job to keep him from smoking weed.

juggy4711
05-10-2012, 21:39
Problem is the need and the costs are artificially inflated. As long as the government is the largest consumer on Earth we are all screwed.

ETA CAcop, Anytime now Certified will be along to accuse you of sucking off the Govt. teat and to tell you how he wishes you would lose your job and starve. To him, you only have a job to keep him from smoking weed.

If weed (or any other victimless crime) was legal how many less LEO's and CO's would we need? If we needed less of them how much less (supply and demand) would they cost the producing private sector?

holesinpaper
05-10-2012, 22:03
Whatever we make in fees or fines are eaten up by our costs.

You realize that's self-perpetuated growth, or a growth loop.

The more you work, the more it costs, the more you confiscate, the more money you have... so the more you can work. The more you work, the more it costs. The more you confiscate...

Same with speed traps.

Kind of a BS argument to justify the necessary evilness of your existence, and continual over-growth imho.

Cavalry Doc
05-11-2012, 06:09
All the money for this comes from the same place, the tax paying private sector.

Not all. Some of it comes from tax paying government employees.

Some government is necessary. And, if someone delivers a service for a salary, it is just an attempt to irritate to call that welfare. That's the point.

Don't believe everything you've read. The average government worker does not make $125,000. I work in healthcare (obviosly). In the facility I work in, there are about 3100 employees. Less than 10% are paid over $100,000, and most of those are Physicians. And, being that it IS a hospital, there are a lot of physicians, by percentage anyway.

For most people, it's honest work. For some, not so much. I know of several reports on access to care, that are intentionally manipulated to give better than possible reality numbers, which is directly related to the bonuses of executive level management personnel. And the last time I checked, lying to get more money than you were supposed to get from the government is a criminal act. Good luck getting anyone to pay attention to it though.

Just like any other group, there are good guys and bad guys.

Cavalry Doc
05-11-2012, 06:13
we need cops/ fireman....do away with the Trained to Sexually Assault you

I like the israeli model a lot better.

Cavalry Doc
05-11-2012, 06:18
Doc, thanks for the post.

Before spending the last 23 years as a Correction Officer I served 4 years as an electronic tech in the US Air Force. To some here that makes me the scum of the earth.

I've worked in Military Confinement facilities, and anyone that thinks guarding human refuse is just sitting around watching monitors, you are ignorant. It's a dangerous and tough job.

It's not the guard's fault your friends and family are locked up for a simple marijuana possession charge. Recalibrate your cause and effect detector chip, because blaming the guard is at the wrong end of the temporal spectrum.

Ruble Noon
05-11-2012, 06:18
Not all. Some of it comes from tax paying government employees.



Once again, where does the government get its money to pay these employees?
They get it from the well where all wealth is created, the private sector.
To pay taxes you have to do something that is taxable, create wealth.
Does the government or its employees create wealth? No, the government and its employees are consumers of wealth.

Cavalry Doc
05-11-2012, 06:23
You realize that's self-perpetuated growth, or a growth loop.

The more you work, the more it costs, the more you confiscate, the more money you have... so the more you can work. The more you work, the more it costs. The more you confiscate...

Same with speed traps.

Kind of a BS argument to justify the necessary evilness of your existence, and continual over-growth imho.

"Evilness of your existence" ??!!?? You can't be serious, can you?

JohnnyReb
05-11-2012, 08:32
ETA

If weed (or any other victimless crime) was legal how many less LEO's and CO's would we need? If we needed less of them how much less (supply and demand) would they cost the producing private sector?

I can't speak for every facility, but in my expirence, as a CO, very, very few people are incarcerated for what most would categorize as victimless crimes.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 10:56
"Evilness of your existence" ??!!?? You can't be serious, can you?

Yes.

I've worked in Military Confinement facilities, and anyone that thinks guarding human refuse is just sitting around watching monitors, you are ignorant. It's a dangerous and tough job.

It's not the guard's fault your friends and family are locked up for a simple marijuana possession charge. Recalibrate your cause and effect detector chip, because blaming the guard is at the wrong end of the temporal spectrum.

^^ That's why. The U.S. incarceration rate is a travesty. An unjust, immoral, profit driven, union controlled travesty.

Yes I assign blame to the guards, for participating and leaching off the system that injures their fellow citizens.

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 10:59
I can't speak for every facility, but in my expirence, as a CO, very, very few people are incarcerated for what most would categorize as victimless crimes.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

So, why does the US imprison so many compared to EVERY other country on the earth?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 11:09
"Prison Guards Unions Locks Up Benefits, Politicians, People" (http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/07/prison-guards-union-locks-up-b)


(http://reason.com/blog/2011/06/07/prison-guards-union-locks-up-b)

G-19
05-11-2012, 12:50
Yes.



^^ That's why. The U.S. incarceration rate is a travesty. An unjust, immoral, profit driven, union controlled travesty.

Yes I assign blame to the guards, for participating and leaching off the system that injures their fellow citizens.

Yeah, the incarceration rate in America is a travesty. Why not put the blame where it belongs instead of the cops, correction officers. How about blaming our loss of morals in this country, or lack of good parenting, lure of easy money. If you think drugs are not a problem in this country you are crazy. Do some research and see what kind of crimes have been committed while the perp was on drugs. I know of a guy that was doing LSD and freaked out and chopped his niece and nephew to pieces, or the kid who killed his mother because she flush his weed down the toilet. Yeah, drug use is a victimless crime. You need to get out of your little shell and see what is really going on in this world.

You can talk crap about Cops and Correction Officers all you want, but I highly doubt you could do what we do. Most of you won't even go to your mailbox or sit in your home with out a gun in arms reach. You would p*** yourself if you had to walk, unarmed, into a cell block with 200+ violent offenders.

G-19
05-11-2012, 12:53
So, why does the US imprison so many compared to EVERY other country on the earth?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif

It is because we are to soft on criminals in this country. Capitol punishment needs to be used more often. Like in some of the countries your little graph has listed.

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 14:03
It is because we are to soft on criminals in this country. Capitol punishment needs to be used more often. Like in some of the countries your little graph has listed.

Yeah, damn straight. America should try and emulate the following countries:

China
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Yemen
Syria
Pakistan
Etc.

Genius idea, Communism or Sharia law for all.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/3/26/1332799750960/Amnesty_Death_Penalty_big.jpg

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 14:06
Yeah, the incarceration rate in America is a travesty. Why not put the blame where it belongs instead of the cops, correction officers. How about blaming our loss of morals in this country, or lack of good parenting, lure of easy money.

That's all true... when applied to gov welfare jobs (or workfare if it makes Doc happier, but that's being real charitable).

Corrections officers and LEO sell their souls on the allure of easy money. Abandon real morals for the sake of a paycheck and job security -- at the sacrifice of freedom and the financial security of government and ultimately the tax payers.

G-19
05-11-2012, 14:06
Yeah, damn straight. America should try and emulate the following countries:

China
Iran
Saudi Arabia
Iraq
Yemen
Syria
Pakistan
Etc.

Genius idea, Communism or Sharia law for all.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/3/26/1332799750960/Amnesty_Death_Penalty_big.jpg

So, you don't want to kill criminals and prisons are to over crowded. What do you think would work better at stopping crime?

Oh, I forgot legalizing drugs would cure everything.

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 14:08
You can talk crap about Cops and Correction Officers all you want, but I highly doubt you could do what we do. Most of you won't even go to your mailbox or sit in your home with out a gun in arms reach. You would p*** yourself if you had to walk, unarmed, into a cell block with 200+ violent offenders.

Thanks for the compliment. You are 100% correct in that I could NEVER do what you do.

It's due to morals though, but your egotistical sense of bravado is funny.

G-19
05-11-2012, 14:09
That's all true... when applied to gov welfare jobs (or workfare if it makes Doc happier).

Corrections officers and LEO sell their souls on the allure of easy money. Abandon real morals for the sake of a paycheck and job security -- at the sacrifice of freedom and the financial security of government and ultimately the tax payers.

It is the insanity of such comments that ensure we will never have a libertarian president. You people are really out of touch with reality.

CAcop
05-11-2012, 16:15
What is interesting is CA is proving the lie that the jails are full of non violent drug offenders. You pretty much have to be dealing large quantities or caught in the act of dealing to go to prison or jail.

PawDog
05-11-2012, 18:41
I stated here in the past, how many anti-LE posters here are willing to house a few serial killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. in their homes to lower the incarceration rate?

Volunteers?

I'm sure we can even find a few "poor, innocent" convicts that, while in prison, spend most of their day nude, covered in their own feces, who pleasure themselves 16 out of 24 hours a day to occupy your spare bed room. :rofl:

Brucev
05-11-2012, 20:00
That's all true... when applied to gov welfare jobs (or workfare if it makes Doc happier, but that's being real charitable).

Corrections officers and LEO sell their souls on the allure of easy money. Abandon real morals for the sake of a paycheck and job security -- at the sacrifice of freedom and the financial security of government and ultimately the tax payers.

Are you stoned? What you are writing is gibberish. It is not at all rational.

Brucev
05-11-2012, 20:04
I stated here in the past, how many anti-LE posters here are willing to house a few serial killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. in their homes to lower the incarceration rate?

Volunteers?

I'm sure we can even find a few "poor, innocent" convicts that, while in prison, spend most of their day nude, covered in their own feces, who pleasure themselves 16 out of 24 hours a day to occupy your spare bed room. :rofl:
Why don't you show everyone how it's done?

juggy4711
05-11-2012, 21:11
What is interesting is CA is proving the lie that the jails are full of non violent drug offenders. You pretty much have to be dealing large quantities or caught in the act of dealing to go to prison or jail.

That is the point. How is dealing large quantities or being caught in the act of unto itself a violent crime? I realize that those that do often also engage in violent crime but one does not equate to the other. In reality the illegality of the drug trade causes more crime than then drug trade itself. It is no different than the prohibition of alcohol.

The real answer for why drugs are still illegal is because of all the money to be made fighting the war on drugs and again point to the evils of the government being the largest consumer in the country. If the Feds had realized how much money there was to be made enforcing prohibition alcohol would still be illegal.

juggy4711
05-11-2012, 21:16
I stated here in the past, how many anti-LE posters here are willing to house a few serial killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. in their homes to lower the incarceration rate?

Volunteers?

I'm sure we can even find a few "poor, innocent" convicts that, while in prison, spend most of their day nude, covered in their own feces, who pleasure themselves 16 out of 24 hours a day to occupy your spare bed room. :rofl:

There would be plenty of room for "serial killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc" in prison if it were not filled with folks that were selling a few pounds of pot.

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 21:25
There would be plenty of room for "serial killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc" in prison if it were not filled with folks that were selling a few pounds of pot.

Come on dude, everyone recognizes the true face of evil.

http://www.bikemag.com/blog/missy-giove-mountain-biker-arrested-following-massive-pot-bust/

http://www.getoutdoors.com/goblog/uploads/missy-giove.JPG

certifiedfunds
05-11-2012, 21:40
And if you don't agree that an identified service is needed, change the government so that that service is no longer seen as needed.

This is where we part ways.

Take IRS agents for example. I cannot imagine a more disgusting way to earn a living. I don't know how they look themselves in the mirror. No one forces them to take that job. If they didn't take it, the agency couldn't exist.

certifiedfunds
05-11-2012, 21:45
In the case of employees, they pay taxes too.

No, they don't.

They're a pass-through.

certifiedfunds
05-11-2012, 21:50
Please, I beg you, please go to a fee for service LE model.

Your family member gets murdered? Pay up sucka. Latest average for a homicide investigation is $8 million. Don't have the money up front? Go play detective yourself.

Go hire Kroll and Associates for any of your investigative needs. See how much they charge an hour. Your local police are a bargin.

Better yet let's compare the bottom end. Our local security company that is the biggest pays their guards $10.50/hr. They charge $15.01/15min or $60.04/hr. They provide you with a person capable of citizens arrests, a uniform, radio, and marked truck with lights that can only be activated on private property. The only regulations that apply are that they must have a guard card.

Or you can hire us at $80/hr, which we get paid $48/hr. With us you get a standard police package. Most importantly we comply with POST standards. This is important becuase if we are being paid by you directly then all liability shifts from the city to you.

What is interesting to note is the difference in pay vs. charging. The private guard company wants to make a profit. We are non profit. If you go to a pay for services model we will be going to a for profit service.

So I beg you, please, go to a for profit model for police services.

How many times are you going to post this nonsense?

barbedwiresmile
05-11-2012, 21:53
Lmao at this thread. We have crossed over the Event Horizon.

Raise your children to be tough. They will need to be in coming years as the human monsters of state are unleashed.

certifiedfunds
05-11-2012, 21:55
CAcop, Anytime now Certified will be along to accuse you of sucking off the Govt. teat and to tell you how he wishes you would lose your job and starve. To him, you only have a job to keep him from smoking weed.

:rofl:

certifiedfunds
05-11-2012, 21:57
Not all. Some of it comes from tax paying government employees.



No, Doc, it doesn't. Impossible.

Government employees contribute nothing to revenue and no net GDP.

Government employees consume. It is what it is.

barbedwiresmile
05-11-2012, 22:00
I stated here in the past, how many anti-LE posters here are willing to house a few serial killers, pedophiles, rapists, etc. in their homes to lower the incarceration rate?

Volunteers?

I'm sure we can even find a few "poor, innocent" convicts that, while in prison, spend most of their day nude, covered in their own feces, who pleasure themselves 16 out of 24 hours a day to occupy your spare bed room. :rofl:

You subsidize their existence through socialized policing, which works about as well as socialized 'anything else.' Sociopathic criminals (other than politicians) exist indirect proportion to the degree of socialized policing - which protects these crimnals from private citizens. When protection is monopolized by the state, you breed criminals and psychopaths. But hey, it's big business and great career opportunities with defined-benefit retirement plans. So what the heck. Let's regulate, arrest, and incarcerate each other.

certifiedfunds
05-11-2012, 22:04
You subsidize their existence through socialized policing, which works about as well as socialized 'anything else.' Sociopathic criminals (other than politicians) exist indirect proportion to the degree of socialized policing - which protects these crimnals from private citizens. When protection is monopolized by the state, you breed criminals and psychopaths. But hey, it's big business and great career opportunities with defined-benefit retirement plans. So what the heck. Let's regulate, arrest, and incarcerate each other.

love it

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 22:17
No, Doc, it doesn't. Impossible.

Government employees contribute nothing to revenue and no net GDP.

Government employees consume. It is what it is.

Well, they take tax money and then give some of it back in the form of taxes and try to call it fair.

Seems productive to me, if by productive you mean shuffling someone else's money around under the threat of force.

Or another way to think about it: they take from the gov, which in turn took from me and you. Then they give some of it back to the gov. and a portion of that goes back to them. Crap, genius scheme.

CAcop
05-11-2012, 23:07
That is the point. How is dealing large quantities or being caught in the act of unto itself a violent crime? I realize that those that do often also engage in violent crime but one does not equate to the other. In reality the illegality of the drug trade causes more crime than then drug trade itself. It is no different than the prohibition of alcohol.

The real answer for why drugs are still illegal is because of all the money to be made fighting the war on drugs and again point to the evils of the government being the largest consumer in the country. If the Feds had realized how much money there was to be made enforcing prohibition alcohol would still be illegal.

You clearly need to get out more. People have been murdered over dime bags.

G-19
05-11-2012, 23:16
You subsidize their existence through socialized policing, which works about as well as socialized 'anything else.' Sociopathic criminals (other than politicians) exist indirect proportion to the degree of socialized policing - which protects these crimnals from private citizens. When protection is monopolized by the state, you breed criminals and psychopaths. But hey, it's big business and great career opportunities with defined-benefit retirement plans. So what the heck. Let's regulate, arrest, and incarcerate each other.

What? That makes no sense at all. Typical Liebertarian bullcrap.

holesinpaper
05-11-2012, 23:33
You clearly need to get out more. People have been murdered over dime bags.

So what.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/man-stabbed-friend-over-sex Ban sex?

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/man-attacked-wife-with-cheez-it-snacks-over-earth-day-concert/question-2602153/ Ban cheez-its?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/walmart-baseball-attack-murder.html Ban Walmarts?

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/police-woman-attacked-wal-mart-greeter Ban receipt checking?

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/234273-woman-attacked-boyfriend-with-bathroom-loofah-in-row-over-tv-remote/ Ban TV remotes?

Jesus save me from the stupidity of blaming objects or things for the bad behavior of humans.

CAcop
05-12-2012, 03:30
So what.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/man-stabbed-friend-over-sex Ban sex?

http://www.sodahead.com/united-states/man-attacked-wife-with-cheez-it-snacks-over-earth-day-concert/question-2602153/ Ban cheez-its?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/walmart-baseball-attack-murder.html Ban Walmarts?

http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/police-woman-attacked-wal-mart-greeter Ban receipt checking?

http://local.stv.tv/glasgow/234273-woman-attacked-boyfriend-with-bathroom-loofah-in-row-over-tv-remote/ Ban TV remotes?

Jesus save me from the stupidity of blaming objects or things for the bad behavior of humans.

Just so you understand legalizing drugs is not going to eliminate drug involved crimes. Weed is essentially legal in CA yet every single home invasion in my county has involved crooks looking to steal weed. Now that dispensaries have popped up they are starting to rob them too. Not to mention I have yet to meet a heroin user with a job. Same with tweakers. They will steal to get their fix. Some will even kill.

PawDog
05-12-2012, 06:40
You subsidize their existence through socialized policing, which works about as well as socialized 'anything else.' Sociopathic criminals (other than politicians) exist indirect proportion to the degree of socialized policing - which protects these crimnals from private citizens. When protection is monopolized by the state, you breed criminals and psychopaths. But hey, it's big business and great career opportunities with defined-benefit retirement plans. So what the heck. Let's regulate, arrest, and incarcerate each other.

Yeah, that's the answer, use BS, unfounded rhetoric, and blame the "system" for creating criminals. Typical liberal-think and ideology.

Criminals are responsible for their own actions, and that of their parenting or lack there of. Obviously, given your Progressive view of criminals, you've never interacted with many psychopathic criminals.

barbedwiresmile
05-12-2012, 07:39
What? That makes no sense at all. Typical Liebertarian bullcrap.

Yeah, that's the answer, use BS, unfounded rhetoric, and blame the "system" for creating criminals. Typical liberal-think and ideology.

It's ok. It's part of a much larger cognitive degradation. Personally I think it's the floride in the water. And the absence of economics education in our socialized 'schools'.

The "system" doesn't create criminals. It can't create anything. It can only incent or adversely select certain actors or actions and misallocate resources accordingly. In this case, socialized policing subsidizes the existence of an enormous criminal underclass by protecting them from private citizens through its near monopoly on protection. These criminals are then warehoused at enormous expense, driven mad (or maddER), and released back into private society to wreak more havoc. Wash, rinse, repeat. Private citizens who attempt to exercise protective actions on their own, with some variance among state's, are treated much the same way as these criminals.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 07:53
What? That makes no sense at all. Typical Liebertarian bullcrap.

Keeping the inmates in the box doesn't require a high degree of intellect, does it?

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 07:58
Yeah, that's the answer, use BS, unfounded rhetoric, and blame the "system" for creating criminals. Typical liberal-think and ideology.

Criminals are responsible for their own actions, and that of their parenting or lack there of. Obviously, given your Progressive view of criminals, you've never interacted with many psychopathic criminals.

:rofl:BWS a liberal progressive? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

RC-RAMIE
05-12-2012, 08:29
:rofl:BWS a liberal progressive? :rofl::rofl::rofl:


http://www.barbedwiresmile.wordpress.com/
Guess he never clicked :agree:

Ruble Noon
05-12-2012, 08:45
:rofl:BWS a liberal progressive? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

They label that which they do not understand as liberal progressives, much in the same way that ancient peoples saw natural disasters as signs of angry gods to which they must sacrifice a virgin for appeasement.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 09:17
Yes.



^^ That's why. The U.S. incarceration rate is a travesty. An unjust, immoral, profit driven, union controlled travesty.

Yes I assign blame to the guards, for participating and leaching off the system that injures their fellow citizens.

Wow, you are complaining to the wrong end of the problem. I have an almost perfect way to never be incarcerated for drug use. I don't use them. Don't buy them, sell them or possess them. That is virtually 100% certain to keep me out of jail for that reason. I also have an almost perfect way to avoid traffic tickets, fines for littering, poaching and other reasons those evil people lock other people up, and I'll sell you the plan for the low low price of $5000. Cheaper than bail, it's a bargain.


[/sarcasm]


It might surprise the heck out of you, but most of the guys you will find in prison, probably deserve to be there.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 09:37
Once again, where does the government get its money to pay these employees?
They get it from the well where all wealth is created, the private sector.
To pay taxes you have to do something that is taxable, create wealth.
Does the government or its employees create wealth? No, the government and its employees are consumers of wealth.

Consumers of wealth, providers of service, same thing, different perspective.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 09:42
This is where we part ways.

Take IRS agents for example. I cannot imagine a more disgusting way to earn a living. I don't know how they look themselves in the mirror. No one forces them to take that job. If they didn't take it, the agency couldn't exist.

That's not the way a supply and demand system works. If there is money to be made people will take the job.

If I had my way, we would have a flat tax, no loopholes, no exemptions, no whining, with a tax return you could complete on a 3x5 card, and that should eliminate about 98% of the IRS right there.

Problem solved.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 09:45
No, Doc, it doesn't. Impossible.

Government employees contribute nothing to revenue and no net GDP.

Government employees consume. It is what it is.

What about a private contractor that does a job for the government. The government wants a section of road built, they contract it out, the boss of a civilian firm signs a contract, hires a few dozen people, pays their salary, health care and other benefits, and finishes the road on time, within budget, and makes a nice profit. His workers buy stuff not made by the government, like cars, houses, and toys for the kids at Christmas.

Did that add or not add to the GDP?

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 09:48
Keeping the inmates in the box doesn't require a high degree of intellect, does it?

Never underestimate the intelligence needed to do a job well. I've known some very highly educated cavalry scouts, one was actually a PharmD, but liked being a Cav Scout better.

Prisoners can be sneaky, and if they are smarter than you, there could be trouble.

That's like saying you don't need brains to catch shrimp. But try it some time, there are some tricks smart people have come up with that are needed to be successful at it.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 09:55
Well, they take tax money and then give some of it back in the form of taxes and try to call it fair.

Seems productive to me, if by productive you mean shuffling someone else's money around under the threat of force.

Or another way to think about it: they take from the gov, which in turn took from me and you. Then they give some of it back to the gov. and a portion of that goes back to them. Crap, genius scheme.

From the individual perspective, it is fair. It doesn't matter to me a huge amount if I am working in the same job down the road at a civilian hospital, I still get a check, I still provide the service my employer employed me to do, and I am compensated for it. Granted, I'd make a little more money down the road at the civilian place, but I prefer my clientele to theirs.

The problem you are running into is that you are trying to fix the problem from the wrong end. You can't expect all government workers to suddenly quit or be fired indiscriminately and that would solve the problems. First, some would be going on unemployment or welfare.

This is similar to the utopia of anarchy for me. It's a nice thought, but it's unrealistic. There are certain things the government needs to be doing, and many that it has no business in. The way to fix the problem is at the source. Eliminate the function, then deal with the consequences, which would normally be a private entity filling the gap left in needed services, and services that are losers go away.

PawDog
05-12-2012, 10:29
http://www.barbedwiresmile.wordpress.com/
Guess he never clicked :agree:

Very liberal ideology, mostly cut and pasted from the messianic website "LewRockwell."

holesinpaper
05-12-2012, 13:55
Never underestimate the intelligence needed to do a job well. I've known some very highly educated cavalry scouts, one was actually a PharmD, but liked being a Cav Scout better.

Prisoners can be sneaky, and if they are smarter than you, there could be trouble.

That's like saying you don't need brains to catch shrimp. But try it some time, there are some tricks smart people have come up with that are needed to be successful at it.

Considering most contraband enters prisons because guards break the law and smuggle it in (or accept bribes to look the other way) yes: sneaky, smart educated criminals are inside prison walls -- both in and out of uniform.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 14:01
That's not the way a supply and demand system works. If there is money to be made people will take the job.

If I had my way, we would have a flat tax, no loopholes, no exemptions, no whining, with a tax return you could complete on a 3x5 card, and that should eliminate about 98% of the IRS right there.

Problem solved.

It's not a supply and demand economy when the .gov is hiring.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 14:03
What about a private contractor that does a job for the government. The government wants a section of road built, they contract it out, the boss of a civilian firm signs a contract, hires a few dozen people, pays their salary, health care and other benefits, and finishes the road on time, within budget, and makes a nice profit. His workers buy stuff not made by the government, like cars, houses, and toys for the kids at Christmas.

Did that add or not add to the GDP?

No. Inefficient pass-thru.

The bills are paid with tax money confiscated from a producer.

Contrast with private company building a toll road. Risk taken. Wealth produced.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 14:04
Considering most contraband enters prisons because guards break the law and smuggle it in (or accept bribes to look the other way) yes: sneaky, smart educated criminals are inside prison walls -- both in and out of uniform.

I thought loved one's hid files in cakes on visiting day?

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 14:05
Very liberal ideology, mostly cut and pasted from the messianic website "LewRockwell."

The fact that folks like you can no longer recognize true conservatism is funny.

PawDog
05-12-2012, 16:15
The fact that folks like you can no longer recognize true conservatism is funny.

Nope. There's a huge difference between true Conservatism and the Neo-Liberal religion known as Libertarian-ism. Those preaching and parroting Libertarian ideology have more in common with liberalism than Conservatism.

Anti-Christianity; Anti-Semitism; Anti-LE; Anti-militiary; pro-illegal immigration; pro-illegal substances; pro-marxist anti-American groups such as Code Pink; pro-support for traitors such as Bradley Manning, and the list of actual comparisons is endless.

G-19
05-12-2012, 17:41
Nope. There's a huge difference between true Conservatism and the Neo-Liberal religion known as Libertarian-ism. Those preaching and parroting Libertarian ideology have more in common with liberalism than Conservatism.

Anti-Christianity; Anti-Semitism; Anti-LE; Anti-militiary; pro-illegal immigration; pro-illegal substances; pro-marxist anti-American groups such as Code Pink; pro-support for traitors such as Bradley Manning, and the list of actual comparisons is endless.

There you have it.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 20:02
The libertarian and conservative platforms have similarities and differences

holesinpaper
05-12-2012, 20:22
Nope. There's a huge difference between true Conservatism and the Neo-Liberal religion known as Libertarian-ism. Those preaching and parroting Libertarian ideology have more in common with liberalism than Conservatism.

Anti-Christianity; Anti-Semitism; Anti-LE; Anti-militiary; pro-illegal immigration; pro-illegal substances; pro-marxist anti-American groups such as Code Pink; pro-support for traitors such as Bradley Manning, and the list of actual comparisons is endless.

Shows a serious lack of understand in regards to the political philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism) upon which America was founded.

But, what the hell right? When you can't actually win the argument, toss out personal insults and witty (erroneous) soundbites like 'liberal' and 'druggy' 'anti-semite' 'pro-illegals' 'marxist' and 'libertarian' (etc).

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 20:42
Nope. There's a huge difference between true Conservatism and the Neo-Liberal religion known as Libertarian-ism. Those preaching and parroting Libertarian ideology have more in common with liberalism than Conservatism.



Tell it to Thomas Jefferson.

You folks are a joke.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 20:43
The libertarian and conservative platforms have similarities and differences

What do "conservatives" want to conserve, exactly?

It used to be the Constitution, but not anymore. Only the Libertarian-minded folks are stalwart about that.

lancesorbenson
05-12-2012, 21:23
That's like saying you don't need brains to catch shrimp. But try it some time, there are some tricks smart people have come up with that are needed to be successful at it.

I had to laugh when I read this. I know a few shrimpers down here. Some are smart, but some are as stupid as anyone I've ever met. All are successful, as unsuccessful shrimpers don't last long. Just like most in the private sector, failure to produce means sayonara.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 21:43
What do "conservatives" want to conserve, exactly?

It used to be the Constitution, but not anymore. Only the Libertarian-minded folks are stalwart about that.

I think that concervatism has moved away from a basic meaning of wanting something to stay the same.

Most sides believe that only theirs is right. That's something that needs to change. Don't think it will though.

Cavalry Doc
05-12-2012, 21:47
I had to laugh when I read this. I know a few shrimpers down here. Some are smart, but some are as stupid as anyone I've ever met. All are successful, as unsuccessful shrimpers don't last long. Just like most in the private sector, failure to produce means sayonara.

If they are successful, they are smart in some things.

Many city boys couldn't even get the boat started, let alone get to where it needs to be to catch shrimp. Give credit where it is due.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 22:30
I think that concervatism has moved away from a basic meaning of wanting something to stay the same.



Yes. Now, apparently, it can mean all manner of things, only some of which have basis in the founding documents and many of which, don't.

certifiedfunds
05-12-2012, 22:31
If they are successful, they are smart in some things.

Many city boys couldn't even get the boat started, let alone get to where it needs to be to catch shrimp. Give credit where it is due.

Doc - seriously, you just follow the other boats.

:supergrin:

Cavalry Doc
05-13-2012, 07:07
Doc - seriously, you just follow the other boats.

:supergrin:

Maybe so, but I never short change the skills needed for any other profession. All have specialized knowledge. An average student can pass medical school. And if asked, most of the doctors I know couldn't pass a housekeeping test. There are specific skills in food preparation, plumbing, just simply operating a boat, driving a truck, fixing propellar assemblies etc.

No one knows everything about everything.

G-19
05-13-2012, 07:14
Certified does, just ask him. :)

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 07:17
Maybe so, but I never short change the skills needed for any other profession. All have specialized knowledge. An average student can pass medical school. And if asked, most of the doctors I know couldn't pass a housekeeping test. There are specific skills in food preparation, plumbing, just simply operating a boat, driving a truck, fixing propellar assemblies etc.

No one knows everything about everything.

Totally.

I had a pair of finish carpenters in my house for about 6 months custom fabricating things. We'd talk, sketch it up and they'd build it. Amazing to me.

In my experience, the difference between a smart shrimper and a dumb one is generally indicated by the number of boats he runs, but it isn't difficult. Now, handmaking the nets is another thing.

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 07:19
Certified does, just ask him. :)

There are lots of things here I don't comment on because I'm ignorant of the subject.

Similarly, there are lots of things you DO comment on but shouldn't because you're ignorant of the subject.

When cleaning feces off of prison bars comes up, we'll defer to your expertise.

Cavalry Doc
05-13-2012, 07:23
Yes. Now, apparently, it can mean all manner of things, only some of which have basis in the founding documents and many of which, don't.

Even with 350 million people, it would be difficult to find 10 people that had the exact same opinions on every issue. I know what I would like, and that it's not likely to happen. The republican platform (as opposed to their behavior) is closest to the way I think things should be run. I do not agree with some significant portions of libertarianism. Personal liberty is very cool, with personal responsibility. Noninterventionism has some major problems.

All in all,it takes balance. Too much of anything is bad. Right now we are proving that caring too much for our fellow inhabitants is horrible. It destroys the motivation to work, and leads to unsustainable spending. We have to let people fail again.

G-19
05-13-2012, 07:47
When cleaning feces off of prison bars comes up, we'll defer to your expertise.

Oh, I just let people like you, who think they should be able to do anything they want regardless of what societies laws say, do that.

I see inmates that think the way you do every day. They also believe they should be able to sell drugs, have sex with minors, drink and drive, and a lot of other things that society says is wrong.

PawDog
05-13-2012, 07:57
There are lots of things here I don't comment on because I'm ignorant of the subject.

Similarly, there are lots of things you DO comment on but shouldn't because you're ignorant of the subject.

When cleaning feces off of prison bars comes up, we'll defer to your expertise.

Those tasks are usually given to those incarcerated with low skill sets, you know, like medical equipment salesmen, or former corrupt Louisiana governors........Guy couldn't be a successful governor without being a criminal, but he sure could handle a mop as a housing unit orderly. :rofl:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HEh2auCRBAk/SXiyqUiXj5I/AAAAAAAAARA/QJt9eJS59SE/s400/edwin-edwards2.jpg

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 10:15
Even with 350 million people, it would be difficult to find 10 people that had the exact same opinions on every issue. I know what I would like, and that it's not likely to happen. The republican platform (as opposed to their behavior) is closest to the way I think things should be run. I do not agree with some significant portions of libertarianism. Personal liberty is very cool, with personal responsibility. Noninterventionism has some major problems.

All in all,it takes balance. Too much of anything is bad. Right now we are proving that caring too much for our fellow inhabitants is horrible. It destroys the motivation to work, and leads to unsustainable spending. We have to let people fail again.

The intent of the founders is very clear and documented. The COTUS is written in English. It doesn't much matter to me how many believe what defines conservatism as it doesn't change the definition, though the current flock of "conservatives" have surely tried to change it.

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 10:22
Those tasks are usually given to those incarcerated with low skill sets, you know, like medical equipment salesmen, or former corrupt Louisiana governors........Guy couldn't be a successful governor without being a criminal, but he sure could handle a mop as a housing unit orderly. :rofl:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HEh2auCRBAk/SXiyqUiXj5I/AAAAAAAAARA/QJt9eJS59SE/s400/edwin-edwards2.jpg

EWE is quite the character for sure.

As for the rest of it I don't know what you mean? Does it bother you that I choose to work in a competitive, lucrative field? A field that allowed me to retire at 36? I could see where that could bother a person like you.

I'm back working now by choice. Its a lot more fun that way I must say. But when former colleagues call you up and make an offer you can't refuse, you have to consider it. In the end I realized that 40 was too young not to work, for me anyway.

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 10:24
Oh, I just let people like you, who think they should be able to do anything they want regardless of what societies laws say, do that.



Who thinks that? You think I should be able to do whatever I please?

I suppose you are one that thinks societies should be able to enact whatever laws the majority favors? Some conservative. :upeyes:

I see inmates that think the way you do every day. They also believe they should be able to sell drugs, have sex with minors, drink and drive, and a lot of other things that society says is wrong. They should be able to do the things in bold. How does it feel everyday knowing you go to work for pennies to impose fellow citizens incarcerated for unconstitutional laws?

Cavalry Doc
05-13-2012, 11:54
The intent of the founders is very clear and documented. The COTUS is written in English. It doesn't much matter to me how many believe what defines conservatism as it doesn't change the definition, though the current flock of "conservatives" have surely tried to change it.

I see the founders intent was in several different directions, muddled by compromise, as was needed at almost every level. They did pretty good on their second try, not perfect but pretty good. They often disagreed among themselves and with themselves. Such is the human condition and the way decisions end up getting made among groups of people. Some of them were good guys, some of them were pretty despicable too. Nobody's perfect.

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 12:05
I see the founders intent was in several different directions, muddled by compromise, as was needed at almost every level. They did pretty good on their second try, not perfect but pretty good. They often disagreed among themselves and with themselves. Such is the human condition and the way decisions end up getting made among groups of people. Some of them were good guys, some of them were pretty despicable too. Nobody's perfect.

There were arguments and compromises but they were settled, agreed to and enacted into law. The debates are written and the intent is clear. There really is very little gray area if one dares look deeply enough.

Curious, you say they did pretty good but not perfect on the second try. I'll start another thread on this. Chime in if you would.

PawDog
05-13-2012, 15:38
EWE is quite the character for sure.

As for the rest of it I don't know what you mean? Does it bother you that I choose to work in a competitive, lucrative field? A field that allowed me to retire at 36? I could see where that could bother a person like you.

I'm back working now by choice. Its a lot more fun that way I must say. But when former colleagues call you up and make an offer you can't refuse, you have to consider it. In the end I realized that 40 was too young not to work, for me anyway.

Uh, yeah.......right. :upeyes:

That's the great thing about the anonymity Internet, folks can pretend to be whatever they wish to be; self-made millionaires, war heroes, astronauts, or, hell, even the Eggman, or the Walrus. :rofl:

And Edwin Edwards was and is a scum sucking conman. While in prison, he was punked by the BGD who had him doing their laundry and cleaning their cells for awhile. :cool:

Cavalry Doc
05-13-2012, 16:09
There were arguments and compromises but they were settled, agreed to and enacted into law. The debates are written and the intent is clear. There really is very little gray area if one dares look deeply enough.

Curious, you say they did pretty good but not perfect on the second try. I'll start another thread on this. Chime in if you would.

Been there, see you there.:wavey:

certifiedfunds
05-13-2012, 20:49
Uh, yeah.......right. :upeyes:

That's the great thing about the anonymity Internet, folks can pretend to be whatever they wish to be; self-made millionaires, war heroes, astronauts, or, hell, even the Eggman, or the Walrus. :rofl:

And Edwin Edwards was and is a scum sucking conman. While in prison, he was punked by the BGD who had him doing their laundry and cleaning their cells for awhile. :cool:

Believe whatever you want. :wavey: What do you do for a living?

Yup, EWE is a piece of work.