127gr WFN 10mm bullets at 1700+fps [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Ethereal Killer
05-11-2012, 07:18
Why hasnt anyone done a 125-130gr hardcast WFN? Running the design program and coming up with a workable design then running that thru QL for a baseline I am getting over 1700FPS with a 125gr bullet out of a 5.2" barrel and over 2100fps with a 16" carbine.

seems like the velocity lovers would be attracted to such a design, and the hardcast would give penetration.

Also, I have been wondering what the most effective nose shape would be to maximize tissue disruption? totally flat, dished slightly, or slightly convex?

nickE10mm
05-11-2012, 09:01
I'd be in on THAT idea! (Totally flat and wide or a Keith style... testing would be necessary...

Yondering
05-11-2012, 12:22
Interesting idea, but there are a couple problems to work through. A WFN style bullet puts a lot of the bullet's weight outside the case. At 125 grains, a WFN style just doesn't leave enough lead for the driving bands and lube groove; it's almost all nose.

Another issue is at those speeds, you'll probably want to use a gas check. I can't get the Mountain Molds website to design such a light bullet for a gas check shank. The other option is a soda can check over the plain base driving band; this would work OK, but the bands are so short, the check might cover up some of the lube groove.

You could try something like this picture below. The driving bands are just marginally thick enough. I made the front band small on purpose, so the bullet could be loaded longer, with most of the front band outside the case, into the barrel throat. Loaded to 1.260", the brass should stop .030" in front of the lube groove.

This bullet could be hollow pointed to bring it down to about 125 grains. I would recommend a wide shallow cone shaped hollow point, starting about .220" wide at the meplat, and about .250" deep, with a small flat at the base of the cavity.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Bang/molds/10mm-135_Mountain_Molds.jpg

Meathead9
05-11-2012, 15:20
Hunters supply makes a Hard Cast 135gr PHP (pentagon hollow point).
http://www.hunters-supply.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=723&osCsid=48da472c2b7d16ccdf6eda6ef4d597bc

From what I've read, weight and sectional density have more to do with penetration than velocity. The .454 Casull 365gr WFNGC @ 1000fps would likely out-penetrate a 10mm 200gr WFNGC @ 1300fps. The inertia of the extra weight, and sectional density allow the bullet to crush through anything in it's path, without deflecting like a shorter bullet.

Yondering
05-11-2012, 15:35
Yes, absolutely right. This 135gr bullet would not be a deep penetrator. As a side note though, the .454 load you mentioned above is really only 45 Colt (Ruger) ballistics. A 454 should push that bullet 1200-1400 fps. I was able to push a 400gr bullet to about 1200 fps with my 8" Raging Bull 454. Really a cool round, almost a 45/70 with a short barrel. Off topic though.

BTW, that pentagon hollow point is a design we came up with in discussion for a group buy on the castboolits forum a few years back. The hunter's supply bullet isn't a copy, but I'm pretty sure the hollow point might be. The only reason we went with a 5 sided hollow point was people thought a 3 or 4 sided hollow point didn't look right. I have a couple molds from those group buys with pentagon hollow point pins; they work fine but I've found a 4 sided hollow point is more effective.

Meathead9
05-11-2012, 15:45
Yeah, that is definitely more of a 45 Colt load. I've been considering a 454 Ruger Alaskan, so I was thinking about those kinds of ballistics. I also just wanted to illustrate how a heavier bullet @ a drastically lower velocity would penetrate better than a lighter bullet at high velocities.

Interesting about the PHP design. I recently saw a picture of X-Treme's 180gr Plated HP, and they appear to have the same cavity design as well.

Yondering
05-11-2012, 16:06
Way off topic for a minute - if you're considering a 454 Ruger, I'd recommend a good hard look at a 454 Taurus Raging Bull. I wouldn't normally recommend any Taurus over a Ruger, except that particular gun. When I was shopping for mine, I shot both before buying anything, and found the Taurus was built stronger, handled heavier loads, was more accurate (by a lot!) and had less felt recoil also. I've since sold mine, and wish I hadn't.

countrygun
05-11-2012, 17:58
i am in the "it wouldn't do anything special" camp. It would lack the mass and the sectional density/ballistic coefficient that makes the heavies work and it wouldn't expand dramatically, which makes the hollowpoints work.

Yondering
05-11-2012, 18:44
If this bullet were set up as a hollow point, it could be made to expand very dramatically, like a varmint bullet. Or no expansion at all, or anywhere in between. That's the beauty of cast bullets, they can be whatever you want them to be.

Any Cal.
05-11-2012, 20:18
Popular lore says velocity and meplat determine wound diameter, weight and meplat determine penetration. FWIW... Kind of makes sense, it seems like.

The .454 Alaskan has about the same ballistics as a 5.5" .44. The short barrel takes a lot of oomph away. In a short barrel, pressure determines velocity more than case size.

Ethereal Killer
05-11-2012, 20:37
the only thing i can see it possibly enhancing is that with the velocitied and wide flat nose we would probably start seeing some temporary stretch cavity (TSC) that added to the wounding effect at 1700fps+.

as for penetration I'm sure we would have "enough" to do the trick as it's not expanding with a hard cast bullet even with a low sectional density. I'll bet 20" wouldnt be out of the question and bone wouldnt be much of a problem at handgun ranges.

The whole reason this attracts me is that it's actually possible with the 10mm and the right bullet to get wounding TSC and still retain adequate penetration. add to that a very small amount of bullet drop out to 150 yards and you have a pretty good little round with relatively mild recoil from a relatively common cartridge.

---

I couldnt get much more out of the design program on the website than you did Yondering. I agree a gas check is needed and I would want a very hard non expanding allow and thus a tip that maximized stretch and penetration and cutting. I would want to load to 1.250 and make it a stubby sucker but maximize feeding and bullet length, so whatever design features we'd need for that would be good as long as it kept the wide nose.

I think the hunters supply bullet is too soft for what I have in mind, I'd actually like to see a plated bullet with a harder core if possible, to maximize the compressive strength that Richard Lee talks about in his manual

Angry Fist
05-11-2012, 20:54
Screw lightweights. I'm down with heavy and fast enough. :cool:

_The_Shadow
05-11-2012, 21:03
When I bought the Lyman 175 gr TCBB and the 156 gr Devastator HP molds I was looking at several things, but the most important was the what if SHTF and no bullets were avalible. Both are very nice perfomers for what they are. :supergrin:

Casting sort of insures supply...I'm tempted to get an Big Bore air rifle for hunting or what if no componnets are to be had. :shocked:

Cast'em if you got'em! :cool:

Yondering
05-11-2012, 22:56
Ethereal Killer, just as a matter of perspective, one of my personal favorite 10mm molds is a 160gr hollow point from a Mihec group buy. I usually cast these from straight wheel weights, air cooled (about 10-12 BHN), and push them to 1600 fps from my longslide G20. I've hit 1680 fps with them, but that was a little too hot for my LW barrel. These give very little leading, and good accuracy, even though they are soft.

With the right lube (Speed Green for me), and my soda can gas checks, I get no leading at all. They are very explosive on water jugs, to the point that there is nothing left but small lead fragments.

The same bullet with the flat nose pins in the mold makes a good penetrator for it's weight, and can be cast hard for no deformation.

Obviously a lighter bullet could be pushed faster, but I'm not sure if there will be a lot of benefit. Seems like something worth looking into though, and maybe ordering a mold if you have the cash. I'm interested to see what you come up with.

countrygun
05-12-2012, 08:03
Seems like a lot of work to do to get 300 fps up on the 124 gn .38 super load.

Ethereal Killer
05-12-2012, 08:55
I dont cast my own and probably wont be anytime soon. I would like to do some experimenting tho if I could get the bullets produced somehow. If we could get a decent design figured out I'd buy the mold for sure, but would have to depend on someone else with some experience to pour them.

Any Cal.
05-12-2012, 12:29
I can cast them if somebody wants to get the mold. If a couple people wanted some bullets, and could pay say $15 of the cost up front, then the cost of the mold would not be too great for any person in particular.

Yondering
05-12-2012, 14:30
I'm not sure of the laws behind casting bullets for sale, but it seems perfectly reasonable for a few people to get together and share the cost of a mold, and get some bullets from that mold in return. Custom molds from Mountain Molds run about $100 for a brass 2 cavity, if about 4 people were interested, and wanted 100 bullets each from the mold, that seems like a reasonable deal.

Ethereal Killer
05-12-2012, 20:40
it is 100% ok to make components and share or sell them, as long as you are not making ammo. you can SELL ammo without an FFL you just cant manufacture it, then sell it.

Ethereal Killer
05-12-2012, 20:43
so what do we have to do to get a gas check on that thing? I cant seem to get it with the program. Would we be fine with a 21+ BHN hard bullet or maybe even a heat treated or water hardened bullet with a good alloy? we may be pushing 40,000 PSI here.

Any Cal.
05-12-2012, 21:04
You have to get the weight out of the nose so the body is longer. Use a Truncated Cone or BTC.

Being able to use checks would be ideal, but I am having a hard time finding .401 checks. Checks would make the bullet more forgiving of powder and lube choice, as well as range of acceptable pressures. There is a .40 check maker, and it runs $100 or so. The other option is doing something like Yondering's plain base checks.