Has Striker Fired stolen DA/SA & DAO Guns Thunder? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DaBurna
05-13-2012, 09:09
To me the hammer fired semi-autos have seen their heydays come and gone. I can appreciate Sig, Ruger, Beretta, HK and the like's hammer fired designs, but I think Striker Fired Semi-Autos have ENTRENCHED themselves in the market never to be moved out of 1st place.

Nevertheless, after shooting a Beretta M9 @ the range yesterday, I can see why they're still holding on!!! Sweeeeeeet Single Action Pull!

Foxtrotx1
05-13-2012, 09:12
For those willing to practice DA/SA transitions, it's an awesome setup.

countrygun
05-13-2012, 09:27
The striker fire pistol has been around since early in the 20th century (the Luger for one) and there have been several designs, so it is nothing "new" or "revolutionary". it is merely having it's "turn at the plate". Many gun companies were glad to see some type of different design become popular so they could field new pistols to meed the presumed need. Much like they jumped on the double stack magazines in the late 70's and everyone thought that all semis would have the "new" mags, forgetting that the doublestack even pre-dated the Browning High Power by several years.

Notice the "New" pocket autos? The only "new" things about the concept are polymer and the willingness to shoehorn the 9mm round in to the package.

arclight610
05-13-2012, 09:30
Well Sig, HK, and Beretta are still in business so I'd say no.

.45Super-Man
05-13-2012, 15:28
Eventually people will get tired of the feeling of stamped metal grinding against more stamped metal trigger components.

Sendarr
05-13-2012, 20:11
I still prefer da/sa over striker fired.

ChicagoZman
05-13-2012, 20:20
Never personally cared for the DA/SA action, nor do I see a need for external hammers on a pistol. But they will be around long after I'm gone. Heck, people still buy SA revolvers, don't they?

method
05-13-2012, 20:29
SAO? Never heard that one.

There's double action, single action, and double action only. Double action implies single action capability, there's no need for this DA/SA nonsense.

Haldor
05-13-2012, 20:37
For a self defense pistol there is a lot to be said for striker fired. No manual safety is a big advantage to me. I find the revolver like simplicity of a striker fired pistol to be welcome in a weapon I might have to defend my life with.

I find the DA pull on most DA/SA pistols to be pretty awful. The difference between DA and SA is so much that placement of the second shot is normally pretty far from the first shot. If you manually cock the pistol before shooting then the SA trigger can be quite good, however that is not how I use a self defense pistol. I am also a bit concerned that the SA trigger is more likely to result in ND. The striker trigger is safer than the DA/SA in that respect.

My G26 has a stock trigger pull since it is my primary self defense weapon. I did replace the grooved trigger with a smooth trigger and I find the G26 trigger to be perfectly acceptable.

My G17 has a Ghost Rocket connector and it has a delightful trigger pull. Not as good as my S&W Model 29, or a finely tuned 1911, but otherwise pretty darn good.

I like other pistols for range/hunting use and for their aesthetic properties, but for self defense I'm going to stick to Glock like pistols, specifically my G26 and my PF9.

Haldor
05-13-2012, 20:46
SAO? Never heard that one.

There's double action, single action, and double action only. Double action implies single action capability, there's no need for this DA/SA nonsense.

Colt .45 Peacemaker is an example of a SAO. You have to manually cock the hammer after each shot.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VyWdYIWACXY/TZAAqpK9yBI/AAAAAAAAALk/vMfq5LJmpC4/s1600/Colt%2B.45%2BPeacemaker%2B-%2BWest%2BPoint.jpg

And there are DAO pistols out there also. The Keltec P11 and P32 are both DAO only. The Sig P226 DAK is a DAO version specifically for police use.

Brucev
05-13-2012, 20:49
Everyone has their own preference. Some will like a design while others will not. So it is with the striker fired pistol. As produced by Glock, S&W, etc., they have some who like them and others who don't. There are many multiple examples of hammer fired SA and DA pistols that are superb designs. If someone is insecure and wishes to defend their choice, fine. Have at it. But to suppose that those with differing views are inexperienced and behind the times is simple childishness.

Roger G23
05-13-2012, 20:50
I'm mainly a striker fired Glock and M&P guy. I'm going to pick up my new 92FS Friday!

ithaca_deerslayer
05-13-2012, 20:59
For those willing to practice DA/SA transitions, it's an awesome setup.

I don't see much reason for that transition. Safety, I guess, was the reason.

I'd rather have a loaded Beretta knocking around loose than a loaded Glock. But to draw and get those first shots quickly on target, I'd rather have a Glock :)

countrygun
05-13-2012, 21:07
Everyone has their own preference. Some will like a design while others will not. So it is with the striker fired pistol. As produced by Glock, S&W, etc., they have some who like them and others who don't. There are many multiple examples of hammer fired SA and DA pistols that are superb designs. If someone is insecure and wishes to defend their choice, fine. Have at it. But to suppose that those with differing views are inexperienced and behind the times is simple childishness.


:agree:

Foxtrotx1
05-13-2012, 21:15
I don't see much reason for that transition. Safety, I guess, was the reason.

I'd rather have a loaded Beretta knocking around loose than a loaded Glock. But to draw and get those first shots quickly on target, I'd rather have a Glock :)

There is no reason why the DA/SA cannot be as fast or faster and just as accurate.

Cobra64
05-13-2012, 21:15
Well Sig, HK, and Beretta are still in business so I'd say no.

You have to remember, many here weren't even born when Glock appeared on the scene in the early 1980s, so that's all they know. Furthermore, they don't understand that some people prefer different platforms for different reasons.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cartoons/TrollKid.jpg

"What's a 1911?"

countrygun
05-13-2012, 21:27
There is no reason why the DA/SA cannot be as fast or faster and just as accurate.


Watch someone like Bruce Gray with a SA/DA sometime. BTW Jerry Miculek does a pretty fair job with an "Old fashioned" revolver.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-13-2012, 21:31
There is no reason why the DA/SA cannot be as fast or faster and just as accurate.

Hey, maybe for you :)

I was quite happy with my 92 for a couple decades until I started shooting IDPA. Then I saw the beauty of my 26 and PM9 with their faster 1st shot capability in my hands. That made me go out and buy a 17.

I really do love the 92, but there is no way I can get that first shot off as quickly and accurately as I can with the 17. I suspect many people have found the same in their own shooting, because the Glocks and M&P tend to dominate IDPA.

And I know, it's only a game. But the difference is real, at least for me :)

Yankee2718
05-13-2012, 21:46
I think a major reason striker fired guns have become so popular is their extremely short manual of arms. Insert magazine, rack slide, holster. Draw weapon, fire, holster. There is no decocking lever or safety to manipulate before or after firing. The design is very simple.

I also believe that the price is a big factor too. How many people on average can go to the LGS and plop down $900 for a Sig or HK? There are many more that can plop down $550 and leave with an excellent firearm that will out shoot them their whole lives. Also, there is a lot of bias in the gun business. Read any gun magazine and normally the only pistol mentioned is a 1911 that costs upwards of $1000, or a Glock or Glock clone. Never mentioned are other excellent pistols like CZs that are superb DA pistols that don't cost $900. Normal people can't spend top dollar for a pistol. The majority of pistol buyers will buy the gun, shoot it 200 times, put it away and rarely shoot it again. I know that someone will come along with the 'How much is your life worth' garbage. For the normal everyday Joe a $350 Taurus will go bang and shoot when it is needed to.

I think that cost/easy use dominates, and that is why striker fired guns have become so popular. Ease of use and ease on the wallet. That being said, stay safe.

method
05-13-2012, 22:02
Colt .45 Peacemaker is an example of a SAO. You have to manually cock the hammer after each shot.



Actually, you have to cock the hammer before each shot. I know what a single action pistol is. What I was commenting on was these silly, redundant terms that get made up, like DA/SA, and SAO.

TSAX
05-13-2012, 22:43
To each his own. Many people have a personal preference for striker fired guns but also many for the DA/SA as well. The striker fired pistols are growing but I think the DA/SA will never go away. Especially since guns like the M11 (Sig P228) and M9 (Beretta) are in service with the military and will be for a long time.

Has the thunder been stolen, to an extent yes. More are being made, talked about, sold and its whats new. Its not a fad and will be around but so will the DA/SA.









:50cal:

bac1023
05-14-2012, 06:18
To me the hammer fired semi-autos have seen their heydays come and gone. I can appreciate Sig, Ruger, Beretta, HK and the like's hammer fired designs, but I think Striker Fired Semi-Autos have ENTRENCHED themselves in the market never to be moved out of 1st place.

Nevertheless, after shooting a Beretta M9 @ the range yesterday, I can see why they're still holding on!!! Sweeeeeeet Single Action Pull!

They are very popular now, mainly because many inexpensive polymer handguns use the design.

Striker fire pistols have been around for well over 100 years. However, SAO and DA/SA pistols aren't going anywhere.

bac1023
05-14-2012, 06:19
I still prefer da/sa over striker fired.

Me too.

I actually like SAO better than either of them.

Boats
05-14-2012, 07:36
What the OP fails to mention is that the market is seeing a wave of hammer fired "constant action" pistols such as the SIGs equipped with the DAK, the HKs with LEM, the Beretta PX4 C model, and will undoubtedly see more over time.

You don't need to buy a zip gun to get away from DA/SA if it is merely the firing mode that is bugging you.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-14-2012, 07:51
However, SAO and DA/SA pistols aren't going anywhere.

Didn't S&W just stop making one of your favorites :wavey:

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 08:06
Eventually people will get tired of the feeling of stamped metal grinding against more stamped metal trigger components.

It's been, what, 70 years or so? Looks like you're wrong.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 08:12
There is no reason why the DA/SA cannot be as fast or faster and just as accurate.

Sure there is....there is a MAJOR difference between the first (DA) trigger pull, and the subsequent (SA) pulls. It's completely silly and difficult to master. With GLOCKs M&Ps and other striker-fired pistols, each trigger pull is identical, from the first to the last, making mastery of the firearm easier.

I've owned both, and my SIG and Berretta (Taurus) are no longer with me, but GLOCKs have stayed.

SigFTW
05-14-2012, 08:30
My favored platform is DA/SA. SAO is second, love the old style revolvers.

bac1023
05-14-2012, 09:03
Sure there is....there is a MAJOR difference between the first (DA) trigger pull, and the subsequent (SA) pulls. It's completely silly and difficult to master. With GLOCKs M&Ps and other striker-fired pistols, each trigger pull is identical, from the first to the last, making mastery of the firearm easier.

I've owned both, and my SIG and Berretta (Taurus) are no longer with me, but GLOCKs have stayed.

Glock triggers do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 09:09
Glock triggers do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.

1911s and such do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.

fnfalman
05-14-2012, 09:40
If striker-fire design is so great then how come the US Army Board of Ordnance doesn't want it?

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 09:42
If striker-fire design is so great then how come the US Army Board of Ordnance doesn't want it?

Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.

fastbolt
05-14-2012, 09:48
Having grown up shooting mostly single action revolvers and Colt Government Model/Commander pistols, and then double action revolvers, I found the transition to traditional double action pistols (TDA, or commonly called DA/SA) rather straight forward and not difficult. I didn't see the need for them, but I adapted to them.

Good thing, as I ended up having to carry one or another of them for over 20 years as issued weapons, once we transitioned from revolvers. ;)

I didn't jump over to Glocks for some time. A not-so-good experience with a rental G17 in the late 80's, and then a lackluster experience shooting some demo guns a rep brought to a firearms instructor school in '90 (G22/23 & a just-released G20). Felt too much like my Crosman pellet gun trigger, without the good ergos for the grip. :tongueout:

Time change, though, and later on as an armorer I had to keep up with what our guys & gals were buying as off-duty weapons, so I added Glock to my training ... and finally bought a couple for myself.

The modern striker service-type pistol trend has become well established and firmly entrenched in the market place. An old design updated and enjoying a resurgence of interest thanks to newer manufacturing methods, techniques and materials.

I'll always be an enthusiast/user of the 1911-style pistol.

I still enjoy SA revolvers, although I've long since accepted that trigger-cocking revolvers have their place, too. :tongueout: I never thought I'd own and use so many DAO revolvers, either ... but I do.

I found the TDA pistols to be excellent general service/defensive purpose "working" pistols, and I own and use a number of them. I like the initial DA trigger stroke (my favorite of which, if I had to pick one, being the Walther Anti-Stress version of their excellent 99 series, although the other major manufacturers produce good examples).

Striker-fired pistols? Yeah, I own and use 7 of those (Glock, Walther/S&W SW99's and M&P's), and I'll own at least 1-2 more M&P's (with the next up being the M&P-derived Shield 9). Maybe a PPQ someday, if Walther ever decides to create a compact version. ;)

Striker design pistols are here to stay ... again (or should I say still?)

countrygun
05-14-2012, 10:17
Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.

They want those things for their reasons, which aren't yours, but not agreeing with you makes them "idiots".:upeyes:

Not very full of yourself are you?

Pray tell, what in your military training indicated to you that those features were un needed?

In your extensive experience were you ever made aware that soldiers, even though they have been issued a handgun because of their MOS , are not "gunfighters", or "pistoleers"? Maybe, just maybe, the military realizes that the time and budget they have for pistol training lends itself better to that type of pistol for the troops. I don't know for sure, but i have heard some wild rumors that the military actually procures small amounts of different pistols for soldiers whos jobs may be more dependent on the pistol and who then receive more training.

Nakanokalronin
05-14-2012, 10:33
I prefer the SAO trigger on a 1911, but I have noticed that I can transition myself to my DA/SA and striker fired guns quite easily with-in a shot or two. I don't like DAO on semi-autos but I have no problem with it on revolvers.

Even though people will have their preferences when it comes to triggers, they all have their advantages and disadvantages and can be adapted to with little time and practice.

Haldor
05-14-2012, 10:41
1911s and such do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.

Now that is silly. I prefer Glocks for self defense, but a well tuned 1911 trigger pull can be a work of art.

fnfalman
05-14-2012, 10:47
Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.

These same idiots are smart enough not to equip American fighting men and women with tupperware.

If striker fired pistols are so hot, then how come there hadn't been one since the Roth-Steyr until 1980?

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 10:51
They want those things for their reasons, which aren't yours, but not agreeing with you makes them "idiots".:upeyes:

Not very full of yourself are you?

Pray tell, what in your military training indicated to you that those features were un needed?

In your extensive experience were you ever made aware that soldiers, even though they have been issued a handgun because of their MOS , are not "gunfighters", or "pistoleers"? Maybe, just maybe, the military realizes that the time and budget they have for pistol training lends itself better to that type of pistol for the troops. I don't know for sure, but i have heard some wild rumors that the military actually procures small amounts of different pistols for soldiers whos jobs may be more dependent on the pistol and who then receive more training.

Oh, yeah...soldiers are sooo much different than LEOs. Everyone knows ALL LEOs come through having been pro-style shooters for decades. NO LEOs are like Soldiers, with most having absolutely zero experience with firearms.

Still, LEOs use GLOCKs and M&Ps, with no safety or 2nd strike ability, and it's fine.

The Military continues to stick to anachronistic ideas like having a manual safety and 2nd strike ability. Simply idiotic.

countrygun
05-14-2012, 10:53
I prefer the SAO trigger on a 1911, but I have noticed that I can transition myself to my DA/SA and striker fired guns quite easily with-in a shot or two. I don't like DAO on semi-autos but I have no problem with it on revolvers.

Even though people will have their preferences when it comes to triggers, they all have their advantages and disadvantages and can be adapted to with little time and practice.

Funny thing, I started out handgunning with a Ruger .22 auto and a Colt Series 70. In a couple of years I was taken under the wings of some pretty proficient revolver shooters. I never had much trouble at all later, with the SA/DA autos. When the striker fired systems made a comeback they were a piece of cake. (think of them as really short DA pulls, or really lousy SA pulls). It was not insurmountable at any rate. Hand many of today's shooters a gun with a DA trigger, or a safety lever, and their Pampers get all wadded up.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 11:01
These same idiots are smart enough not to equip American fighting men and women with tupperware.

If striker fired pistols are so hot, then how come there hadn't been one since the Roth-Steyr until 1980?

That's your opinon. I think (except for recent production GEN4 GLOCK pistols) our Military would have been better served with GLOCK pistols.

High Altitude
05-14-2012, 11:02
The fact that traditional DA/SA pistol manufacturers came out with trigger options for their DA/SA pistols to try and compete with striker fired pistols says it all.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 11:03
Now that is silly. I prefer Glocks for self defense, but a well tuned 1911 trigger pull can be a work of art.

I didn't say it couldn't. I said 1911's do nothing for me....I think of a lot more than just the trigger.

fnfalman
05-14-2012, 11:16
That's your opinon. I think (except for recent production GEN4 GLOCK pistols) our Military would have been better served with GLOCK pistols.

That's not MY opinion. That's the opinion of the gun designers, various armies and whomever else.

If the US military were to want Glocks, the Board of Ordnance would have done something about it. Let's face it, nobody wants a plastic toy gun that would melt under hot sun. It's not like we're fighting in the desert.:rofl:

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 11:32
That's not MY opinion. That's the opinion of the gun designers, various armies and whomever else.

If the US military were to want Glocks, the Board of Ordnance would have done something about it. Let's face it, nobody wants a plastic toy gun that would melt under hot sun. It's not like we're fighting in the desert.:rofl:

You're trolling particularly hard today.

Good for you!!!

ithaca_deerslayer
05-14-2012, 11:34
I think I have 3 DA/SA semi-autos. And 4 DA/SA revolvers.

No particular point, but this thread seriously needs a redirect :)

bac1023
05-14-2012, 11:56
Glock triggers do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.

1911s and such do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.

OK

I didn't say I didn't like Glocks. I said the trigger did nothing for me. Its servicable, but nothing special, in my opinion.

Foxtrotx1
05-14-2012, 11:56
SAO? Never heard that one.

There's double action, single action, and double action only. Double action implies single action capability, there's no need for this DA/SA nonsense.

Wow that's weird, for DA/SA being so incorrect, a lot of people who make them...refer to them that way. Odd. Hmmm....:whistling:

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226.aspx

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF059&gid=FNG001

http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/usp_general.asp

http://www.berettausa.com/products/m9-commercial-9mm-15rds/

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 12:12
OK

I didn't say I didn't like Glocks. I said the trigger did nothing for me. Its servicable, but nothing special, in my opinion.

I understand completely.....I just like to look at the total package, that's all. I agree GLOCK triggers are far from a crisp, breaking glass rod type. I do like them, but they just happen to work well for me.

fnfalman
05-14-2012, 12:14
You're trolling particularly hard today.

Good for you!!!

My boundless firearms knowledge is to be shared with the neophytes.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 12:22
My boundless firearms knowledge is to be shared with the neophytes.

And we do appreciate it your Highness!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

samuse
05-14-2012, 13:07
I'm actually making a move toward DA/SA pistols.

I started out on striker-fired pistols (Glock) carried, shot and trained on them for about ten years. I shot USPSA yesterday with one.

For my own personal carry/HD pistol I'm making a transition to DA/SA Sigs.
I put 1K rounds downrange last week training with a P226 and it's an excellent gun.
I like the DA first pull under stress and to be honest I feel like the DA makes the gun safer to have laying on a table, in a briefcase, in a desk drawer, in the console of a truck or carried without a holster. It's not ideal, but with my current situation sometimes Mexican carry is the best option for me.

countrygun
05-14-2012, 13:11
Oh, yeah...soldiers are sooo much different than LEOs. Everyone knows ALL LEOs come through having been pro-style shooters for decades. NO LEOs are like Soldiers, with most having absolutely zero experience with firearms.

Still, LEOs use GLOCKs and M&Ps, with no safety or 2nd strike ability, and it's fine.

The Military continues to stick to anachronistic ideas like having a manual safety and 2nd strike ability. Simply idiotic.


Were you speaking from your extensive military training, or your extensive LEO training, or extensive internet experience?

There are many concepts principles and designs that pre-date your appearance on the scene. I have yet to see that striker fired pistols have raised the bar as far as skill is concerned. The military was not impressed with the concept way back when field trials led to the adoption of the 1911. I own a few of the newer plastic models and they are what they are, not much different, and in some ways inferior, to the steel framed, striker fired pistols I own that pre-date my appearance in the world. (a couple of them were designed and built before my Father's time)

Remember, when you look at many of the semis today you will note that they have "hooked" trigger guards. That is because a few people, who put their support fingers up on the trigger guard, won a few matches. It was predicted, by some, that "everybody will be putting their finger on the trigger guard in the future".

I have seen many "pendulums" swing back and forth in the firearms world, in my lifetime. The whole idea of "pocket pistols" was almost completely dismissed, the laws changed and look at the market now. At one time the 9mm got hot because of mag capacity, then fell off because the ammo stunk on the street, then the ammo improved.....and on and on. Give it some time and look around at the history and get some history of your own before you pontificate too much.

bac1023
05-14-2012, 13:31
My boundless firearms knowledge is to be shared with the neophytes.

:rofl:

That's an awesome line, fnfalman. :supergrin:

bac1023
05-14-2012, 13:33
Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.

:upeyes:

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 14:07
Were you speaking from your extensive military training, or your extensive LEO training, or extensive internet experience?

There are many concepts principles and designs that pre-date your appearance on the scene. I have yet to see that striker fired pistols have raised the bar as far as skill is concerned. The military was not impressed with the concept way back when field trials led to the adoption of the 1911. I own a few of the newer plastic models and they are what they are, not much different, and in some ways inferior, to the steel framed, striker fired pistols I own that pre-date my appearance in the world. (a couple of them were designed and built before my Father's time)

Remember, when you look at many of the semis today you will note that they have "hooked" trigger guards. That is because a few people, who put their support fingers up on the trigger guard, won a few matches. It was predicted, by some, that "everybody will be putting their finger on the trigger guard in the future".

I have seen many "pendulums" swing back and forth in the firearms world, in my lifetime. The whole idea of "pocket pistols" was almost completely dismissed, the laws changed and look at the market now. At one time the 9mm got hot because of mag capacity, then fell off because the ammo stunk on the street, then the ammo improved.....and on and on. Give it some time and look around at the history and get some history of your own before you pontificate too much.

I fail to see any point you're trying to make. Times and tastes change? Sure, that's obvious.

Are you trying to debate any particular point I've made? Feel free to do so if you'd like. Other than that, everything you've posted above is well known to most people here, including myself.

And please knock off the "what experience you have" crapola. You've been following me around a few threads recently, asking the same question, and it's honestly getting to the point of stalking behavior.

If you're simply waiting for someone like me to challenge you on your experiences so you can talk about yourself, just go ahead and share them.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 14:09
:upeyes:

Skip the smileys and challenge what I said. 2nd strike capability and manual safetys aren't necessary. Hundreds of thousands of LEOs in this country can attest to that.

Hell, this is Glock Talk, that's simply a given.

countrygun
05-14-2012, 14:12
I fail to see any point you're trying to make. Times and tastes change? Sure, that's obvious.

Are you trying to debate any particular point I've made? Feel free to do so if you'd like. Other than that, everything you've posted above is well known to most people here, including myself.

And please knock off the "what experience you have" crapola. You've been following me around a few threads recently, asking the same question, and it's honestly getting to the point of stalking behavior.

If you're simply waiting for someone like me to challenge you on your experiences so you can talk about yourself, just go ahead and share them.

If you missed it, the point is, "all that is new is not better" nor does "new" automatically, effectively, replace "Old".

Yes, when you do call folks like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the military in general "stupid" it opens the door for your credentials to be questioned. Having a Computer and internet access does not a valuable opinion make.

bac1023
05-14-2012, 14:16
Skip the smileys and challenge what I said. 2nd strike capability and manual safetys aren't necessary. Hundreds of thousands of LEOs in this country can attest to that.

Hell, this is Glock Talk, that's simply a given.

That's YOUR opinion. They may not be necessary, but they are preferred in many cases.

Yes, this is GT, but we're in General Firearms.

.45Super-Man
05-14-2012, 14:36
Those who cant seem to deal well with the "complexity" of manual safeties must have a hell of a time with a microwave(or any other household appliance). If one gets confused that easily, better to find another hobby.....ASAP!

NEOH212
05-14-2012, 14:39
For those willing to practice DA/SA transitions, it's an awesome setup.

:thumbsup:

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 14:41
If you missed it, the point is, "all that is new is not better" nor does "new" automatically, effectively, replace "Old".

Yes, when you do call folks like the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the military in general "stupid" it opens the door for your credentials to be questioned. Having a Computer and internet access does not a valuable opinion make.

So then, why are you on the internet. Why are you bothering to post your opinions?

Seriously, the topic of 2nd strike capability and manual safeties have been discussed on this board ad naseum, many, many times, for years. It is the generally held consenus that they're completely un-necessary, and anachronistic hold overs from another time.

Your freaking-out over my saying that the folks in our Military that continue to hold on to such anachronistic ideas (2nd strike/safety) as idiots, is silly. If you think I'm trying to paint the Military "in general" or the Joint Chiefs (in specific?) as idiots, you're incorrect. Just those that think that 2nd strike and safeties are still necessary.

You need to ask more questions, get more specifics, before you decide to get upset.

Oh....you're back to "credentials".....o.k., I'll bite.

In an accusatory tone; "Oh yeah? What are YOUR credentials?"

countrygun
05-14-2012, 14:41
Those who cant seem to deal well with the "complexity" of manual safeties must have a hell of a time with a microwave(or any other household appliance). If one gets confused that easily, better to find another hobby.....ASAP!

:perfect10:

NEOH212
05-14-2012, 14:42
While I don't mind striker fired guns, I still shoot better with DA/SA.

(I know I'm not supposed to be able to but I guess I'm a freak on nature then.) :whistling:

:supergrin:

bac1023
05-14-2012, 14:42
Those who cant seem to deal well with the "complexity" of manual safeties must have a hell of a time with a microwave(or any other household appliance). If one gets confused that easily, better to find another hobby.....ASAP!

:rofl:

Very true :)

NEOH212
05-14-2012, 14:43
Those who cant seem to deal well with the "complexity" of manual safeties must have a hell of a time with a microwave(or any other household appliance). If one gets confused that easily, better to find another hobby.....ASAP!


Practice makes perfect. (At least pretty close to it anyhow!)

:iloveyou:

countrygun
05-14-2012, 15:18
Where are the complaints about the main battle rifle having one of those horrible complicated manual safeties?:whistling:

Maybe a longer initial DA pull is considered a safety factor by those responsible for training uninitiated, inexperienced troops?

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 16:33
Where are the complaints about the main battle rifle having one of those horrible complicated manual safeties?:whistling:

Maybe a longer initial DA pull is considered a safety factor by those responsible for training uninitiated, inexperienced troops?

How about the training with GLOCKs/M&Ps for uninitiated, inexperienced cops?

Yet it's not a problem, all those pistols with no safeties and no long, DA pulls.

NEOH212
05-14-2012, 16:41
How about the training with GLOCKs/M&Ps for uninitiated, inexperienced cops?

Yet it's not a problem, all those pistols with no safeties and no long, DA pulls.


I must say that I agree with you here. For someone just starting out as a shooter, A striker fired gun makes sense. It's easier to learn and become proficient with quickly.

DA/SA, or SAO cocked and locked takes a lot more work and dedication to training/practice to become proficient with. Further, DA/SA takes continuous regular practice to stay on top of it.

One draw back to DA/SA that I've found over the years is if you don't shoot it on a regular basis, you loose your edge to a extent. This happens too with DAO but to a much lesser extent, at least that's the way it has been for me anyhow.

I think it's a good thing for all shooters to try all the different trigger systems out there and see what works best for them. Guns are to shoes with respect to one size doesn't fit all.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 16:43
That's YOUR opinion. They may not be necessary, but they are preferred in many cases.

Yes, this is GT, but we're in General Firearms.

Please expound on the cases where you think they would be preferred. I'm looking at my opinion as more fact when regarding LEOs and .Mils that have to train up to a certain level of proficiency in a certain ammount of time. Striker fired pistols are better in that realm.

I think hundreds of thousands of LEOs in this country (and in many others), on patrol today and every day, carrying pistols with no safeties or 2nd strike capability, shows that they're not necessary.

Plus, there are many countries with Military troops that are issued GLOCKs, and other striker fired pistols, that lack safties and 2nd strike capability. There's no doubt that our Military could successfully field striker fired pistols, and I'd bet my last dollar that training scores would rise across the board, since they're easier to learn and become proficient with.

oldman11
05-14-2012, 16:51
Actually, you have to cock the hammer before each shot. I know what a single action pistol is. What I was commenting on was these silly, redundant terms that get made up, like DA/SA, and SAO.
DA/SA means double action 1st pull and single action after that. SA or SAO means all pulls are single action. DA or DAO means all pulls are double action.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 16:53
I must say that I agree with you here. For someone just starting out as a shooter, A striker fired gun makes sense. It's easier to learn and become proficient with quickly.

DA/SA, or SAO cocked and locked takes a lot more work and dedication to training/practice to become proficient with. Further, DA/SA takes continuous regular practice to stay on top of it.

One draw back to DA/SA that I've found over the years is if you don't shoot it on a regular basis, you loose your edge to a extent. This happens too with DAO but to a much lesser extent, at least that's the way it has been for me anyhow.

I think it's a good thing for all shooters to try all the different trigger systems out there and see what works best for them. Guns are to shoes with respect to one size doesn't fit all.

The most beautiful pistol I've ever owned, hands down, was a DA/SA P226 SIG. But, in addition to being too large and heavy to CCW comfortably, the differences between the two trigger pulls gave me fits....and I was shooting quite often at the time, ammo cost less than half what it does today.

If I took the time to cruise around the web, I know there is plenty of info out there that shows LEAs having their shooting scores rise across the board after they switched to striker fired pistols. They can simply be mastered easier.

No doubt DA pistols can be mastered to incredible levels of proficiency (you, Jerry Miculek), but it takes time, dedication and money to get there.

Bob Hafler
05-14-2012, 16:58
Not in my world it hasn't. I'll take a SA or SA/DA steel hammer fired pistol over a stiker fired poly pistol anyday.

Love them 1911's and CZ's.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 17:08
Not in my world it hasn't. I'll take a SA or SA/DA steel hammer fired pistol over a stiker fired poly pistol anyday.

Love them 1911's and CZ's.

But, your avatar is a pic of a G26/27/33.:supergrin:

cfr
05-14-2012, 17:16
DA/SA, or SAO cocked and locked takes a lot more work and dedication to training/practice to become proficient with. Further, DA/SA takes continuous regular practice to stay on top of it.

One draw back to DA/SA that I've found over the years is if you don't shoot it on a regular basis, you loose your edge to a extent. This happens too with DAO but to a much lesser extent, at least that's the way it has been for me anyhow.



You answered my question before I asked it, thanks! :wavey:

bac1023
05-14-2012, 17:36
Not in my world it hasn't. I'll take a SA or SA/DA steel hammer fired pistol over a stiker fired poly pistol anyday.

Love them 1911's and CZ's.

:thumbsup:

Bob Hafler
05-14-2012, 17:42
But, your avatar is a pic of a G26/27/33.:supergrin:
Only on Glock Talk.:rofl: I only own one and it's a 26 and I got that on a deal that was to good to pass up.
I treat it like a red headed step child. Spends most of it's life in the pickup truck or a Harley saddlebag. It's a good gun but
it's not my favorite and I don't really care if it gets scratched or dinged up.

bac1023
05-14-2012, 20:06
I don't really care if it gets scratched or dinged up.

That's one of the best things about them. :)

Cobra64
05-14-2012, 20:27
That's one of the best things about them. :)

:animlol:
:animlol:
:animlol:
:animlol:
:animlol:

Cobra64
05-14-2012, 20:42
I'm actually making a move toward DA/SA pistols.

I started out on striker-fired pistols (Glock) carried, shot and trained on them for about ten years. I shot USPSA yesterday with one.

For my own personal carry/HD pistol I'm making a transition to DA/SA Sigs.
I put 1K rounds downrange last week training with a P226 and it's an excellent gun.
I like the DA first pull under stress and to be honest I feel like the DA makes the gun safer to have laying on a table, in a briefcase, in a desk drawer, in the console of a truck or carried without a holster. It's not ideal, but with my current situation sometimes Mexican carry is the best option for me.

Bingo!

Apparently the DA/SA platform is why the US Navy SEALs and Texas Rangers are issued the 226, the US Secret Service and US Federal Air Marshals carry the 229 and 239, and the US Border patrol carries the P2000.

Cobra64
05-14-2012, 20:57
Those who cant seem to deal well with the "complexity" of manual safeties must have a hell of a time with a microwave(or any other household appliance). If one gets confused that easily, better to find another hobby.....ASAP!

They would get really confused driving a BMW...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cars/IMG_0924JPG.jpg





... with a standard transmission...

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Cars/IMG_0935.jpg

Wil Ufgood
05-14-2012, 20:59
1911s and such do absolutely nothing for me.

To each their own.
http://www.you-can-be-funny.com/images/midgetinsane.jpg

ScottieG59
05-14-2012, 21:33
I carried a Smith & Wesson 59 for a couple years before going to a Beretta 92SB Compact. The DA/SA function was never a problem. Transitioning was easy too.

The striker fired Glocks have shown me there is a better way. For a personal defense weapon, it is hard to beat. Simple rules in combat.

Boats
05-14-2012, 21:40
I carried a Smith & Wesson 59 for a couple years before going to a Beretta 92SB Compact. The DA/SA function was never a problem. Transitioning was easy too.

The striker fired Glocks have shown me there is a better way. For a personal defense weapon, it is hard to beat. Simple rules in combat.

Lol. Just how much handgun combat have you had?

samuse
05-14-2012, 22:04
I say who cares?

It's a freekin' gun. Shoot the one you like best.

Truth be told, I'm a decent shooter. Not great, but I've been through quite a bit of training, a whole lotta rounds and more matches than I can recall.

The gun you shoot really doesn't matter. Pick one that you like and shoot it 'til you're good with it.

Cobra64
05-14-2012, 23:42
I say who cares?

It's a freekin' gun. Shoot the one you like best.

Truth be told, I'm a decent shooter. Not great, but I've been through quite a bit of training, a whole lotta rounds and more matches than I can recall.

The gun you shoot really doesn't matter. Pick one that you like and shoot it 'til you're good with it.



:agree:


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/129265.jpg

bac1023
05-15-2012, 04:50
That's one of the best things about them.

:animlol:
:animlol:
:animlol:
:animlol:
:animlol:

:rofl:

bac1023
05-15-2012, 04:57
:agree:


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c2/Davis1950/Weapons/129265.jpg

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

bac1023
05-15-2012, 04:57
I say who cares?

It's a freekin' gun. Shoot the one you like best.



:agree:

Bob Hafler
05-15-2012, 05:33
That's one of the best things about them. :)

Your right it is one of the best things about them, it can take a beating I won't deny that. That's why I bought it in the first place, that and the price was so very right. The Glock 26 was bought to do a specific job nothing more ,and it does a great job at it.
That still doesn't mean I like it better then SA or SA/DA hammer fired Steel /Alloy pistols. I'm sure my CZ could do the same job as I'm asking the glock to do very well.

dpadams6
05-15-2012, 06:58
I'm actually making a move toward DA/SA pistols.

I started out on striker-fired pistols (Glock) carried, shot and trained on them for about ten years. I shot USPSA yesterday with one.

For my own personal carry/HD pistol I'm making a transition to DA/SA Sigs.
I put 1K rounds downrange last week training with a P226 and it's an excellent gun.
I like the DA first pull under stress and to be honest I feel like the DA makes the gun safer to have laying on a table, in a briefcase, in a desk drawer, in the console of a truck or carried without a holster. It's not ideal, but with my current situation sometimes Mexican carry is the best option for me.

I agree with you. As much as I love my glocks, nothing feels as nice as when I hold/shoot my 226, 229. They are simply beautiful.

fnfalman
05-15-2012, 07:02
And we do appreciate it your Highness!!!:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Of course you should. It's always an honor and a privilege to be the recipient of my wisdom. Now go out and buy yourself a real handgun. AND a real rifle too. Leave the tupperware for Wally World.

M&P15T
05-15-2012, 08:21
Of course you should. It's always an honor and a privilege to be the recipient of my wisdom. Now go out and buy yourself a real handgun. AND a real rifle too. Leave the tupperware for Wally World.

I already have them.

You, however, need to start looking at stuff built after 1980. There's a whole new world for you to explore, firearms-wise.

fnfalman
05-15-2012, 08:35
I already have them.

You, however, need to start looking at stuff built after 1980. There's a whole new world for you to explore, firearms-wise.

Disposable guns? Tres gauche.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 10:39
Plus, there are many countries with Military troops that are issued GLOCKs, and other striker fired pistols, that lack safties and 2nd strike capability. There's no doubt that our Military could successfully field striker fired pistols, and I'd bet my last dollar that training scores would rise across the board, since they're easier to learn and become proficient with.

Did it ever dawn on you that other Countries choose Glocks because they are CHEAPER? in general other Countries do not have the military budgets that we do and, because of the desirability of certain guns they may use ON THE AMERICAN CIVILLIAN MARKET (witness the BHPs coming in from Israel) those countries can surplus their "Old" pistols and recoup most of the cost of the dirt cheap deals Glock offers to get those worldwide sales statistices. If you have ever been part of a Law Enforcement procurement program in this Country, you know how that game works. Glock has done everything but put their pistols in gumball machines in the lobby, to get LEAs to adopt their brand so it would impress the heck out of civillians who buy them at greater profit margins for the company.

If our military worried about what was popular with the rest of the world in order to decide what our military should have, the main battle rifle today would be the AK-47 or 74.

Of course we would need to add more plastic to make it "wowie neat" for some folks. But they, like the Glock are "simple enough for most folks" and they've been adopted all over the world because the Soviets made them cost effective for satellite Countries much like Glock has positioned itself.

Veedubklown
05-15-2012, 16:11
Did it ever dawn on you that other Countries choose Glocks because they are CHEAPER? in general other Countries do not have the military budgets that we do and, because of the desirability of certain guns they may use ON THE AMERICAN CIVILLIAN MARKET (witness the BHPs coming in from Israel) those countries can surplus their "Old" pistols and recoup most of the cost of the dirt cheap deals Glock offers to get those worldwide sales statistices. If you have ever been part of a Law Enforcement procurement program in this Country, you know how that game works. Glock has done everything but put their pistols in gumball machines in the lobby, to get LEAs to adopt their brand so it would impress the heck out of civillians who buy them at greater profit margins for the company.

If our military worried about what was popular with the rest of the world in order to decide what our military should have, the main battle rifle today would be the AK-47 or 74.

Of course we would need to add more plastic to make it "wowie neat" for some folks. But they, like the Glock are "simple enough for most folks" and they've been adopted all over the world because the Soviets made them cost effective for satellite Countries much like Glock has positioned itself.

Nope.

45caldan
05-15-2012, 16:21
I have never liked traditional DA/SA pistols.
Sure there are some good guns with this type of trigger (Sigs)
but I have never been able to shoot them as well as I'd like.
1911s have always been my favorite because of the SAO trigger but I DO like striker fired pistols like Glocks and my new favorite 9mm the PPQ.
I believe there will be fewer and fewer new models of DA/SA pistols in the future.....

Veedubklown
05-15-2012, 16:38
I've never cared for DA/SA semi's myself. The glock trigger can be worked to be really sweet, and still work well as a carry gun. It's like a SA trigger with ALOT of take-up. I carry either a glock, or SAO semi.

As said before, stiker fired designs have been around for ages. Browning made a striker design back in 1908. HK had a polymer pistol in the 1970's. Glocks just put it together well, but it's not like there were no striker fired guns on the market when glocks came about.

poodleplumber
05-15-2012, 16:57
I have owned SAO, DAO, DA/SA (which is a pretty standard and useful term, IMO), and striker-fired pistols. The only system I don't currently own is DAO. The others are all good. For that matter, the DAO is probably good for someone. I think we should be glad we have choices.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 17:05
No striker fored pistol in my collection has as nice and fast a reset as the S&W 39/639

Veedubklown
05-15-2012, 17:14
For that matter, the DAO is probably good for someone.

Pocket carry. Doesn't matter if the thing has a long hard trigger, it's for 3-7 yards. Who needs sights? I think DAO is great for a slim subcompact like a J frame hammerless, or a pocket auto.

M&P15T
05-15-2012, 17:17
Did it ever dawn on you that other Countries choose Glocks because they are CHEAPER? in general other Countries do not have the military budgets that we do and, because of the desirability of certain guns they may use ON THE AMERICAN CIVILLIAN MARKET (witness the BHPs coming in from Israel) those countries can surplus their "Old" pistols and recoup most of the cost of the dirt cheap deals Glock offers to get those worldwide sales statistices. If you have ever been part of a Law Enforcement procurement program in this Country, you know how that game works. Glock has done everything but put their pistols in gumball machines in the lobby, to get LEAs to adopt their brand so it would impress the heck out of civillians who buy them at greater profit margins for the company.

If our military worried about what was popular with the rest of the world in order to decide what our military should have, the main battle rifle today would be the AK-47 or 74.

Of course we would need to add more plastic to make it "wowie neat" for some folks. But they, like the Glock are "simple enough for most folks" and they've been adopted all over the world because the Soviets made them cost effective for satellite Countries much like Glock has positioned itself.

Oh, you mean cost is important? You don't say....

Anywho, the question was, have striker pistols stolen the thunder of other types? The clear and definitive answer is an unqualified "yes". In Militaries and LEAs around the world, striker fired service pistols rule the market. In the civilian market, I don't have any specific numbers, but I'd bet that striker fired pistols are also the king of sales.

Whether that sits well with you, no matter what you like to shoot yourself, the reality is clear. There are many reasons, including cost, that have made the situation what it is. But as the old saying goes, it is what it is.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 17:33
Oh, you mean cost is important? You don't say....

Anywho, the question was, have striker pistols stolen the thunder of other types? The clear and definitive answer is an unqualified "yes". In Militaries and LEAs around the world, striker fired service pistols rule the market. In the civilian market, I don't have any specific numbers, but I'd bet that striker fired pistols are also the king of sales.


Whether that sits well with you, no matter what you like to shoot yourself, the reality is clear. There are many reasons, including cost, that have made the situation what it is. But as the old saying goes, it is what it is.

Indeed you are finally seeing my point COST drives many purchase decisions and not any design superiority. Thank you.

Oh, and you might want to check on sales numbers for 1911 type pistols, an over 100 year old design, and compare them to striker fired and just ask yourself, " will Glocks be doing as well against more "modern" designs when they reach 100?"

esh325
05-15-2012, 17:33
You're talking about pre-set striker fired pistols like the Glock right? Striker fired pistols can be DA/SA,DAO, and SAO just like a hammer fired pistol. As far as the answer to your question, DA/SA's appear to just as popular as ever. I personally prefer a DA/SA to pre set striker fired pistols. For the people arguing which one is superior, the answer is neither. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.


Indeed you are finally seeing my point COST drives many purchase decisions and not any design superiority. Thank you.

Oh, and you might want to check on sales numbers for 1911 type pistols, an over 100 year old design, and compare them to striker fired and just ask yourself, " will Glocks be doing as well against more "modern" designs when they reach 100?"
Cost is a factor, but how are you so certain the Glocks popularity is only because of cost? At least in the United States, you can buy 1911's that cost as much as a Glock.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 17:37
You're talking about pre-set striker fired pistols like the Glock right? Striker fired pistols can be DA/SA,DAO, and SAO just like a hammer fired pistol. As far as the answer to your question, DA/SA's appear to just as popular as ever. I personally prefer a DA/SA to pre set striker fired pistols. For the people arguing which one is superior, the answer is neither. Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages.

Indeed, i have a striker fired Taurus that gives the option of SA cocked and locked, DA/SA, and has second strike capabilities. At least one maker, no matter how many bashers there are, hasn't thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

M&P15T
05-15-2012, 17:41
Indeed you are finally seeing my point COST drives many purchase decisions and not any design superiority. Thank you.

Oh, and you might want to check on sales numbers for 1911 type pistols, an over 100 year old design, and compare them to striker fired and just ask yourself, " will Glocks be doing as well against more "modern" designs when they reach 100?"

Don't kid yourself into thinking that cost is the only factor in what LEAs and Militaries, as well as civilians choose to purchase. And as I stated before, striker fired pistols are great for LEAs, Militaries and new civilian shooters because they're easier to master than other types of pistols. So while cost is one factor, it's not the only one.

As far as GLOCKs 100 years from now, of course not. There will be something new on the market by then, surpassing the GLOCK, just as the 1911 has been relegated to a niche civilian pistol from a once dominant Military pistol.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 18:03
Don't kid yourself into thinking that cost is the only factor in what LEAs and Militaries, as well as civilians choose to purchase. And as I stated before, striker fired pistols are great for LEAs, Militaries and new civilian shooters because they're easier to master than other types of pistols. So while cost is one factor, it's not the only one.

As far as GLOCKs 100 years from now, of course not. There will be something new on the market by then, surpassing the GLOCK, just as the 1911 has been relegated to a niche civilian pistol from a once dominant Military pistol.

I hate to burst your bubble ther but I have been on the inside of law enforcement procurement, and cost is a huge factor. The folks that make the big decisions are bean counters and not gunfighters. What skews the stats even more is "the larger the Department, the BIGGER the cost factor plays in the decision". A small dept might be able to be a bit more concerned with handguns and have fewer beancounters in the works. But a large department is concerned with thousands of dollars riding on the decision and when a company like Glock practically throws them at the bean counters, along with the incredibly short amount of time it takes to train armorers and support personel, cost wipe out the competiton in the numbers game.

Do a lot of serious research into Departments who let officers select their own weapons, or carry Department issued Glocks, and see what the numbers look like.

There are many who probably would choose the Glock and good for them, "a good man knows his limitations", but there is far from a landslide in favor of Glocks when officers are free to choose.

oldman11
05-15-2012, 18:13
Did it ever dawn on you that other Countries choose Glocks because they are CHEAPER? in general other Countries do not have the military budgets that we do and, because of the desirability of certain guns they may use ON THE AMERICAN CIVILLIAN MARKET (witness the BHPs coming in from Israel) those countries can surplus their "Old" pistols and recoup most of the cost of the dirt cheap deals Glock offers to get those worldwide sales statistices. If you have ever been part of a Law Enforcement procurement program in this Country, you know how that game works. Glock has done everything but put their pistols in gumball machines in the lobby, to get LEAs to adopt their brand so it would impress the heck out of civillians who buy them at greater profit margins for the company.

If our military worried about what was popular with the rest of the world in order to decide what our military should have, the main battle rifle today would be the AK-47 or 74.

Of course we would need to add more plastic to make it "wowie neat" for some folks. But they, like the Glock are "simple enough for most folks" and they've been adopted all over the world because the Soviets made them cost effective for satellite Countries much like Glock has positioned itself.
Your contrived story sounds good for those that that don't know any better. It's obvious that you hate Glocks for whatever reason, and that's your prerogative. Your rant is completely false and is nothing more than a pure prevarication with no reality.

esh325
05-15-2012, 18:14
Don't kid yourself into thinking that cost is the only factor in what LEAs and Militaries, as well as civilians choose to purchase. And as I stated before, striker fired pistols are great for LEAs, Militaries and new civilian shooters because they're easier to master than other types of pistols. So while cost is one factor, it's not the only one.

As far as GLOCKs 100 years from now, of course not. There will be something new on the market by then, surpassing the GLOCK, just as the 1911 has been relegated to a niche civilian pistol from a once dominant Military pistol.
I agree, cost is not the only factor. As far as the Glock being a great gun for new shooters, one could argue that a pre cocked trigger with no manual safety is going to be less forgiving of human error then a double action trigger. I've heard people herald the Glock as the "experts pistol" and "newbie pistols". I'm not really sure which is true.

M&P15T
05-15-2012, 18:14
I hate to burst your bubble ther but I have been on the inside of law enforcement procurement, and cost is a huge factor. The folks that make the big decisions are bean counters and not gunfighters. What skews the stats even more is "the larger the Department, the BIGGER the cost factor plays in the decision". A small dept might be able to be a bit more concerned with handguns and have fewer beancounters in the works. But a large department is concerned with thousands of dollars riding on the decision and when a company like Glock practically throws them at the bean counters, along with the incredibly short amount of time it takes to train armorers and support personel, cost wipe out the competiton in the numbers game.

Do a lot of serious research into Departments who let officers select their own weapons, or carry Department issued Glocks, and see what the numbers look like.

There are many who probably would choose the Glock and good for them, "a good man knows his limitations", but there is far from a landslide in favor of Glocks when officers are free to choose.

Striker fired still rules. For lots of good reasons. Not gonna change anytime soon, either. Again, the answer to the OPs question is "yes".

Cost? Yes, it's one of the factors, but not the only one.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 18:23
Your contrived story sounds good for those that that don't know any better. It's obvious that you hate Glocks for whatever reason, and that's your prerogative. Your rant is completely false and is nothing more than a pure prevarication with no reality.


HAHAHA I love it. The joke is on you, I have had a Glock 22c for three years and I ordered and received a 20 SF last month.

You are just too sensitive when it comes to someone not falling on their knees before the alter, and daring to say that, sometimes, the Emporer's clothes don't fit.

Funny that I walked in and ordered a gun, without even asking what it would cost (of course I know the LGS dealer well) if I am so obviously a hater.

BTW, where is ANY proof coming from you, that anything in my post was false?

Put down the kool aid

esh325
05-15-2012, 18:29
Guys, don't feed the troll. Ignore him and he'll go away.

fnfalman
05-15-2012, 19:02
It's been a 100-years since the striker fire mechanism was first featured. If it were that great then how come nobody else had bothered with it en masse in between then and now?

countrygun
05-15-2012, 19:21
Guys, don't feed the troll. Ignore him and he'll go away.


You referring to the troll who said this,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalmanhttp://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18965102#post18965102)
If striker-fire design is so great then how come the US Army Board of Ordnance doesn't want it?

Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.
__________________


? A real mature evaluation of the circumstances and pros and cons

MLittle
05-15-2012, 19:32
I'm actually making a move toward DA/SA pistols.

I started out on striker-fired pistols (Glock) carried, shot and trained on them for about ten years. I shot USPSA yesterday with one.

For my own personal carry/HD pistol I'm making a transition to DA/SA Sigs.
I put 1K rounds downrange last week training with a P226 and it's an excellent gun.
I like the DA first pull under stress and to be honest I feel like the DA makes the gun safer to have laying on a table, in a briefcase, in a desk drawer, in the console of a truck or carried without a holster. It's not ideal, but with my current situation sometimes Mexican carry is the best option for me.


Reading all of these posts with folks knocking da/sa pistols depresses me...........I'm serious. I have 2 Glocks (26, 30sf) and 2 Sigs (P226, P220 Carry). I'm pretty new to handguns, been shooting and carrying now for a little over 2 years. I like Glocks, but for the life of me, I just shoot the Sigs better. Should I feel guilty because I carry my Sig P220 Carry in da/sa? Maybe I need counseling :crying:

ithaca_deerslayer
05-15-2012, 20:06
It's been a 100-years since the striker fire mechanism was first featured. If it were that great then how come nobody else had bothered with it en masse in between then and now?

I've read various historical opinions that the early ones were unsafe to carry chambered, thus the emergence and sudden popularity of the DA/SA designs.

Then Glock came along and either made it a safe design or showed it was a safe design.

Along comes widespread competitions such as IDPA and the masses learn that the Glock and M&P are faster and more accurate for them than the DA/SA.

Then in 2012 this issue was posted in a thread on GT.

:)

Veedubklown
05-15-2012, 20:10
Reading all of these posts with folks knocking da/sa pistols depresses me...........I'm serious. I have 2 Glocks (26, 30sf) and 2 Sigs (P226, P220 Carry). I'm pretty new to handguns, been shooting and carrying now for a little over 2 years. I like Glocks, but for the life of me, I just shoot the Sigs better. Should I feel guilty because I carry my Sig P220 Carry in da/sa? Maybe I need counseling :crying:

Not at all man. It's what works for you, and that's great. Just cause dude A likes a glock and I like a 1911 and he likes a hi-power and you like a sig and that dude behind you has a hi-point, who cares.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 20:29
I've read various historical opinions that the early ones were unsafe to carry chambered, thus the emergence and sudden popularity of the DA/SA designs.

Then Glock came along and either made it a safe design or showed it was a safe design.

Along comes widespread competitions such as IDPA and the masses learn that the Glock and M&P are faster and more accurate for them than the DA/SA.

Then in 2012 this issue was posted in a thread on GT.

:)


For a bit of background, check out this page,

http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_militaria__collectibles_germany_dreyse.html


and note what they have to say about the striker fired system that was used on some of the wartime Dreyse's

It sounds awfully familiar

bac1023
05-15-2012, 20:38
This thread is ridiculous.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-15-2012, 20:38
For a bit of background, check out this page,

http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_militaria__collectibles_germany_dreyse.html


and note what they have to say about the striker fired system that was used on some of the wartime Dreyse's

It sounds awfully familiar

Cool gun. Reads to me like the trigger completion of the cocking was for hard primers. But what if the primer wasn't hard? I didn't read of a firing pin block.

Berto
05-15-2012, 20:46
Short answer: No.

I have striker fired guns from 1920's to present day, including Glock. I also have one of the very first successful striker fired guns, the Luger.
Some were good, some weren't.
To say they have stolen the thunder of other fire control systems is simply false, they have had over a hundred years to establish some kind of 'supremacy', but other designs continue to prosper and thrive just as well.
The Glock may be a very popular gun and for good reason, but the striker design it uses (one of many) is only one of many factors contributing to it's success, just as Sig/ Kimber/Beretta etc all enjoy success based on factors not soley attributed to their fire control systems.
It's not some new phenomenon.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 20:50
Cool gun. Reads to me like the trigger completion of the cocking was for hard primers. But what if the primer wasn't hard? I didn't read of a firing pin block.

Correct, there is not a block but the action of the mechanism is very familiar. I have a Dreyse as well as other pistols that no doubt influenced some of the popular guns of today.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-15-2012, 20:52
This thread is ridiculous.

Have or have not the DA/SA decreased in popularity as the striker fired Glock, Kahr, M&P, and XD type guns have increased in popularity, over say the last 10 years?

You know the gun market and trends better than any of us. And as I mentioned earlier, S&W even recently stopped making one of your favorite DA/SA.

And doesn't it also appear that competitions such as IDPA show the striker fired like the Glock to be faster and more accurate than (under those timed conditions) than the DA/SA models? While each of us have individual variations in performance, the top levels of those competitions appear to be dominated by Glock and M&P, and with the fastest times.

Now none of this means there is anything wrong with the DA/SA. Doesn't even mean the US military should go away from the DA/SA.

Doesn't mean the DA/SA are any less beautiful. Doesn't mean I'm going out to sell my Beretta 92 and compact.

But it does seem to mean that the DA/SA are not quite as favored as they were 10 or more years ago. Wish I knew the percent of sales numbers. I bet there has been a shift away from the DA/SA.

Will favor swing back toward the DA/SA? I don't know.

CBennett
05-15-2012, 20:54
For those willing to practice DA/SA transitions, it's an awesome setup.

agreed its just that first da shot you need to "master" after that it should be smooth sailing. That said I get why the closer to a sa than da shot of a striker fired gun is likable.

Berto
05-15-2012, 21:05
After a couple decades of shooting SA autos like the BHP and 1911, and DA revolvers, I thought the DA/SA transition would be a PITA...and it can be in guns like the Makarov (at least for me, instant double tap).....but the 3913 is really nothing to carp about, it's plenty fast.

bac1023
05-15-2012, 21:13
Have or have not the DA/SA decreased in popularity as the striker fired Glock, Kahr, M&P, and XD type guns have increased in popularity, over say the last 10 years?



Actually, I was just referring to the length of the thread, not really its context. :)

samuse
05-15-2012, 21:50
Reading all of these posts with folks knocking da/sa pistols depresses me...........I'm serious. I have 2 Glocks (26, 30sf) and 2 Sigs (P226, P220 Carry). I'm pretty new to handguns, been shooting and carrying now for a little over 2 years. I like Glocks, but for the life of me, I just shoot the Sigs better. Should I feel guilty because I carry my Sig P220 Carry in da/sa? Maybe I need counseling :crying:


Look at it this way...

If you look in any military, federal, state, county and local law enforcement officer's holster, chances are, you're gonna find a Glock, Sig or H&K. The M&P is steadily making ground.

Go overseas and you can add CZ to that list.

I don't think DA/SA is very close to extinction yet.:rofl:

M&P15T
05-16-2012, 07:03
You referring to the troll who said this,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalmanhttp://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18965102#post18965102)
If striker-fire design is so great then how come the US Army Board of Ordnance doesn't want it?

Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.
__________________


? A real mature evaluation of the circumstances and pros and cons

I've noticed you're upset over my comment.

You're a sensitive little thing.

fnfalman
05-16-2012, 07:27
Thirty years ago, everybody was harping about how the M1911 platform was obsolete and dead, and the same thing for the Mattel Toy platform.

Doesn't look like it, does it?

Same thing with DA/SA system. It's been around since the 1950s and it'll be around longer.

If striker fire design had been so hot, then why hadn't it been utilized more? It's not as if the guns manufacturers don't know about striker fired pistols since...oh, I don't know, 1890s.

Have or have not the DA/SA decreased in popularity as the striker fired Glock, Kahr, M&P, and XD type guns have increased in popularity, over say the last 10 years?

You know the gun market and trends better than any of us. And as I mentioned earlier, S&W even recently stopped making one of your favorite DA/SA.

And doesn't it also appear that competitions such as IDPA show the striker fired like the Glock to be faster and more accurate than (under those timed conditions) than the DA/SA models? While each of us have individual variations in performance, the top levels of those competitions appear to be dominated by Glock and M&P, and with the fastest times.

Now none of this means there is anything wrong with the DA/SA. Doesn't even mean the US military should go away from the DA/SA.

Doesn't mean the DA/SA are any less beautiful. Doesn't mean I'm going out to sell my Beretta 92 and compact.

But it does seem to mean that the DA/SA are not quite as favored as they were 10 or more years ago. Wish I knew the percent of sales numbers. I bet there has been a shift away from the DA/SA.

Will favor swing back toward the DA/SA? I don't know.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-16-2012, 08:17
Thirty years ago, everybody was harping about how the M1911 platform was obsolete and dead, and the same thing for the Mattel Toy platform.

Doesn't look like it, does it?

Same thing with DA/SA system. It's been around since the 1950s and it'll be around longer.

If striker fire design had been so hot, then why hadn't it been utilized more? It's not as if the guns manufacturers don't know about striker fired pistols since...oh, I don't know, 1890s.

Wouldn't you also include the Walther PP in with the DA/SA? If so, I think that goes back to the 1920s :)

When was the first successful firing pin block striker fire without a thumb safety? Maybe that's what the masses were waiting for all these years.

And I didn't interpret the OP about the DA/SA dying out, but instead about the striker becoming more popular.

We need those handgun sales figures worldwide from the last 10 years, then we'll know what the trend is. Without that, the perceptions are pretty isolated. A police force here, a few buddies there, some marketing ads here, etc.

MLittle
05-16-2012, 09:05
After a couple decades of shooting SA autos like the BHP and 1911, and DA revolvers, I thought the DA/SA transition would be a PITA...and it can be in guns like the Makarov (at least for me, instant double tap).....but the 3913 is really nothing to carp about, it's plenty fast.

I recently purchased a Smith and Wesson Model 6906 that was a LE trade-in (California Department of Corrections) and believe it was manufactured in 1991. It has one of the best da/sa triggers I've shot. It's very accurate, although it seems to shoot a little lower than my Sig P220. But my groups are tight. I was wondering if some of the accuracy in the da/sa pistols (Sigs, 3rd gen Smiths, CZ's, etc.) are maybe due to the full, or nearly full length rails versus the Glock style steel inserts??

fnfalman
05-16-2012, 10:01
Wouldn't you also include the Walther PP in with the DA/SA? If so, I think that goes back to the 1920s :)


I was thinking more along the line of modern DA/SA. Walther already had the DA/SA thing going with the PP and P38.

And I didn't interpret the OP about the DA/SA dying out, but instead about the striker becoming more popular.

Gun manufacturers, like the fashion industry, has to keep things revitalized. They're not beyond inventing new "needs" (like "low bore axis").

Anybody that buys a gun based on striker fire or hammer fire capability alone is an idiot. It's one small part of a very large equation.

countrygun
05-16-2012, 10:02
I've noticed you're upset over my comment.

You're a sensitive little thing.

I was actually around and following the trials that led to the adoption of the M-9 (over the Sig? was my comment, but nonetheless,) I am completely unaware that the US military has conducted any trials on that level to replace the M-9. Consequently, I am unaware that they turned down any striker-fired competitor that was a challenger to the M-9 as a "General issue sidearm". So your statement about them being "Stupid" for apparently turning down a more modern design has me baffled because I apparently missed the whole competition and was unaware they had passed up the opportunity and was unaware they had even planned to do so.

Bob Hafler
05-16-2012, 10:50
Oh my? Is this less filling taste great debate still going on? :upeyes:

Guys there is no right on wrong, it's all about choice. Some of you guys really need to step away from the computer for a while and get a grip and a breath of fresh air.

M&P15T
05-16-2012, 11:13
I was actually around and following the trials that led to the adoption of the M-9 (over the Sig? was my comment, but nonetheless,) I am completely unaware that the US military has conducted any trials on that level to replace the M-9. Consequently, I am unaware that they turned down any striker-fired competitor that was a challenger to the M-9 as a "General issue sidearm". So your statement about them being "Stupid" for apparently turning down a more modern design has me baffled because I apparently missed the whole competition and was unaware they had passed up the opportunity and was unaware they had even planned to do so.

You SERIOUSLY need to work on your reading comprehension. I NEVER said ANYTHING about any Military trials to replace the M9. ALL I said was that it was idiotic that our Military continued to insist on 2nd strike capability and manual safeties.

Jesus dude, you're a hot mess. Pay attention.

bac1023
05-16-2012, 11:36
Oh my? Is this less filling taste great debate still going on? :upeyes:

Guys there is no right on wrong, it's all about choice. Some of you guys really need to step away from the computer for a while and get a grip and a breath of fresh air.

:goodpost:

Wil Ufgood
05-16-2012, 11:46
:goodpost:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gu2s48aPC9s/T1ZBLVcUG2I/AAAAAAAAUuc/oyHsGu6nfNE/s640/Pic+C+-+Cat+Fight.jpg

HunterG23
05-16-2012, 13:32
My first gun was a Glock 23, a bit over a month ago. I have not fired any other handgun before. I have no problem with the striker fire, and on the IDPA team last weekend, I felt like I had the right tool for what it was made for.

eracer
05-16-2012, 13:35
Actually, you have to cock the hammer before each shot. I know what a single action pistol is. What I was commenting on was these silly, redundant terms that get made up, like DA/SA, and SAO.And I thought I was a grammar nazi....:wavey:

easyg
05-16-2012, 14:10
I will not own a DA/SA pistol.
I prefer a pistol with a consīstant trigger pull from the first shot to the last shot.
A heavy trigger pull is not needed if you keep you finger off the trigger til you're ready to shoot and if you carry in a good holster.

Haldor
05-17-2012, 20:20
I understand completely.....I just like to look at the total package, that's all. I agree GLOCK triggers are far from a crisp, breaking glass rod type. I do like them, but they just happen to work well for me.

I agree. While I would love to be able to have a 1911 quality trigger in my Glocks I also realize that if I had that I would need to also have a manual safety/decocker which I am not interested in.

I think Glocks strike a good balance of ease of use and accuracy combined with absolute reliability. They are my choice for a self defense pistol.

Schrag4
05-17-2012, 20:53
I know I'm getting into this discussion EXTREMELY late, but I tend to agree with M&P15 on this one. No, I have no LEO or military experience, but I keep hearing how LEOs and military folks, by and large, are not gun guys. Wouldn't striker fired pistols with no manual safetly, like a Glock, be the absolute easiest to train firearms newbies on? I'll echo his question and ask why they're good enough for LEOs but not military? In other threads here people say that the DoD is either idiotic or corrupt for not replacing the M4. So which is it? Does the DoD make good decisions about firearms or bad ones? And do LEOs have the right idea about pistols or does the military? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, these are honest questions for which I'd appreciate honest answers.

oldman11
05-17-2012, 22:46
I know I'm getting into this discussion EXTREMELY late, but I tend to agree with M&P15 on this one. No, I have no LEO or military experience, but I keep hearing how LEOs and military folks, by and large, are not gun guys. Wouldn't striker fired pistols with no manual safetly, like a Glock, be the absolute easiest to train firearms newbies on? I'll echo his question and ask why they're good enough for LEOs but not military? In other threads here people say that the DoD is either idiotic or corrupt for not replacing the M4. So which is it? Does the DoD make good decisions about firearms or bad ones? And do LEOs have the right idea about pistols or does the military? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, these are honest questions for which I'd appreciate honest answers. Deleted.

countrygun
05-17-2012, 23:03
Colt gave the military a really low price (underbid everyone by quite a bit) and so they got the contract. That is the way contracts are picked. The same with LE pistols; lowest bidder gets the contract. And this started a blog war between people with Colts and people with Glocks. You know; the old "My dad is bigger than your dad" arguments.


Whaaaat?

I repeat Whaaaaat?

"Colt" are they making the M-9 now?:dunno:

You mean Glock was not picked in the JSSAP testing in the early 80s? Which model did Glock enter?
:faint:


edit to add: My bad it was Luger, Savage Remington and Glock that Colt beat out with the Browning design that became the 1911:rofl:

Boats
05-17-2012, 23:18
I know I'm getting into this discussion EXTREMELY late, but I tend to agree with M&P15 on this one. No, I have no LEO or military experience, but I keep hearing how LEOs and military folks, by and large, are not gun guys. Wouldn't striker fired pistols with no manual safetly, like a Glock, be the absolute easiest to train firearms newbies on?

That question is yes and no. IMO, when a a striker fired pistol is issued as a personal sidearm that the person has to live with day in and day out, I'd say yes, it is easier to train a noob with.

When the striker pistol is community property, handed off and handed back in over and over by people with differing amounts of attention to detail, the striker fired auto without a manual safety will likely be a liability in administrative handling. The DoD was leery of allowing the 1911A1 being chambered nearly everywhere but at the front and my bet is after an ND pandemic, the same would happen to a Glock in service to the Big Army.

I'll echo his question and ask why they're good enough for LEOs but not military? In other threads here people say that the DoD is either idiotic or corrupt for not replacing the M4. So which is it? Does the DoD make good decisions about firearms or bad ones? And do LEOs have the right idea about pistols or does the military? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, these are honest questions for which I'd appreciate honest answers.

The cancelled JSSAP Trials for the .45ACP were going to allow striker designs without manual safeties to compete. I don't think the Glock would have won the trial for a laundry list of ergonomic faults not present in the competition, but I also tend to think that the military will still favor a hammer fired handgun. Again, I think think the hammer would be favored as a visual safety aid, and it lends itself for covering the hammer with the thumb for reholstering while festooned in gear that could get caught up inside the trigger guard of a safetyless striker fired pistol.

Bottom line, cops and military folks have different needs from their sidearms. For a cop, it is the primary weapon and the prevailing mode seems to be point and squeeze.

In the military, save for tactical circumstances among elite forces, or during specialized duty like boarding riverine and seagoing traffic, pistols are carried mostly as insurance, or badges of rank and/or occupation, and fired in anger even less than cops use them. In both military roles, being able to present the weapon and hold it on people without negligently killing someone, and then being able to safe the weapon and return it to its holster without picking up a racing stripe, is far more important than the split second theoretically shaved off of one's time during a weekend gun game.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-18-2012, 06:15
That question is yes and no. IMO, when a a striker fired pistol is issued as a personal sidearm that the person has to live with day in and day out, I'd say yes, it is easier to train a noob with.

When the striker pistol is community property, handed off and handed back in over and over by people with differing amounts of attention to detail, the striker fired auto without a manual safety will likely be a liability in administrative handling. The DoD was leery of allowing the 1911A1 being chambered nearly everywhere but at the front and my bet is after an ND pandemic, the same would happen to a Glock in service to the Big Army.



The cancelled JSSAP Trials for the .45ACP were going to allow striker designs without manual safeties to compete. I don't think the Glock would have won the trial for a laundry list of ergonomic faults not present in the competition, but I also tend to think that the military will still favor a hammer fired handgun. Again, I think think the hammer would be favored as a visual safety aid, and it lends itself for covering the hammer with the thumb for reholstering while festooned in gear that could get caught up inside the trigger guard of a safetyless striker fired pistol.

Bottom line, cops and military folks have different needs from their sidearms. For a cop, it is the primary weapon and the prevailing mode seems to be point and squeeze.

In the military, save for tactical circumstances among elite forces, or during specialized duty like boarding riverine and seagoing traffic, pistols are carried mostly as insurance, or badges of rank and/or occupation, and fired in anger even less than cops use them. In both military roles, being able to present the weapon and hold it on people without negligently killing someone, and then being able to safe the weapon and return it to its holster without picking up a racing stripe, is far more important than the split second theoretically shaved off of one's time during a weekend gun game.

All good stuff to think about, in my opinion.

fnfalman
05-18-2012, 09:58
Bottom line, cops and military folks have different needs from their sidearms.

And some of those needs are either absent or different for joe schmoe public as well. That's why I always snicker whenever people started to quote SWAT this or Department that or Navy SEAL this or Army that are using this or that firearm.

TalkToTheGlock
05-18-2012, 10:28
Give me a mid-80's P226 anyday over a Glock.

Search
05-18-2012, 22:28
Without reading any of this thread.

My DA/SA guns > The Striker fired guns I no longer have.

I love Glocks but the trigger on my HKs is far better.

mc1911
05-19-2012, 15:35
I own a glock an M&P and a XDm.

My favorite action is still my old SA/Da Ruger p-90.

Its safety stops its trigger from functioning in either DA or SA mode. It is utterly reliable and accurate but retired now and an XDm has taken its place.

I generally retire out of production guns.

Diesel McBadass
05-19-2012, 18:40
Love DA/SA, hate DAO. What i dont get is why people suffer the da/sa "transition", the transition never bothered me, its just getting accuracy in da mode, the transition to sa is easy and instinctive to me, you just start shooting a nice lighter trigger

fastbolt
05-19-2012, 19:08
Love DA/SA, hate DAO. What i dont get is why people suffer the da/sa "transition", the transition never bothered me, its just getting accuracy in da mode, the transition to sa is easy and instinctive to me, you just start shooting a nice lighter trigger

Then again, there's always been those folks who claimed they could shoot their revolvers just fine in single action, but couldn't accurately shoot them in double action. ;)

Haldor
05-20-2012, 09:34
Then again, there's always been those folks who claimed they could shoot their revolvers just fine in single action, but couldn't accurately shoot them in double action. ;)

That is true, virtually everybody shoots a revolver better single action than they do double action. Problem is single action is a huge legal liability (it's way too easy to have a negligent discharge).

The whole discussion on the relative merits of SA/DA verse striker for military applications is predicated on the idea that the weapon is routinely carried with a round chambered. I thought standard practice in the military was to not chamber a round until ordered to do so (or when the situation calls for it). Has this changed?

TN.Frank
05-20-2012, 10:25
Then again, there's always been those folks who claimed they could shoot their revolvers just fine in single action, but couldn't accurately shoot them in double action. ;)

First time I shot my S&W M13 DA was to qualify for a job with Wells & Fargo Armored Div. I'd never really did much DA shooting with my DA revolvers before that, always cocked the hammer back for an "accurate" shot. Well, I ended up with an over all qualification score of 96% for three rounds of shooting. A big part of it had to do with the trigger job I'd put into the gun(slicked up the rebound slide, slicked up the DA sears, installed Wolff reduced power rebound spring) and the other part was simply trigger control and sight picture.
Anyone who says they can't shoot DA either doesn't have their gun set up for it or hasn't practiced enough to get the proper trigger control and sight picture.
As far as "Striker Fired" I feel that since there's no hammer to give you the option of a SA shot they ARE more or less DAO in a general sort of way. Also, as much as I love to see a hammer on my guns it IS a place for dust and dirt to get into the firearm, by going with a striker set up you close off that back area of the gun on the slide so you won't get all the crud in your gun if you carry it a lot.
I'm a pretty adaptable kind of guy, as long as the gun is reliable and hits where I aim it I can shoot just about anything, DAO, Striker, DA/SA and SA, doesn't matter that much to me as long as I can practice with it a bit and get use to the system.

kahrcarrier
05-20-2012, 10:37
I like.......... both?

esh325
05-20-2012, 18:51
You referring to the troll who said this,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalmanhttp://www.glocktalk.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18965102#post18965102)
If striker-fire design is so great then how come the US Army Board of Ordnance doesn't want it?

Because they're idiots, plain & simple. They want 2nd strike capability and a manual safety, two things that striker-fired pistol are not about.
__________________


? A real mature evaluation of the circumstances and pros and cons
My Luger has a manual safety, and Walther and Taurus make a DA/SA striker fired pistol with second strike capability.

fnfalman
05-21-2012, 11:42
My Luger has a manual safety, and Walther and Taurus make a DA/SA striker fired pistol with second strike capability.

Psst...don't share that secret. Don't you know that striker fired handguns can't be made with second strike capability? They're "special".

Dan Glock
05-21-2012, 12:43
I can't stand DA to SA!!! Striker fired is so much better imo. But I have been looking for a revolver.

countrygun
05-21-2012, 16:22
Psst...don't share that secret. Don't you know that striker fired handguns can't be made with second strike capability? They're "special".

For God sake, don't let people find out they are "tactical" or they won't be able to keep any on the shelves.

Halojumper
05-21-2012, 18:45
SAO? Never heard that one.

There's double action, single action, and double action only. Double action implies single action capability, there's no need for this DA/SA nonsense.

Double action does not imply single action capability, though a lot of people new to guns have that idea. The single in single action means the triggers performs one action. It releases the trigger. The double in double action means it does two things. It cocks the hammer then releases it. If double action implied single action, then the term DAO (double action only) would make no sense. (Kind of like Karate weapons means "empty hand". It really means China Hand, but I digress)

countrygun
05-21-2012, 20:48
Double action does not imply single action capability, though a lot of people new to guns have that idea. The single in single action means the triggers performs one action. It releases the trigger. The double in double action means it does two things. It cocks the hammer then releases it. If double action implied single action, then the term DAO (double action only) would make no sense. (Kind of like Karate weapons means "empty hand". It really means China Hand, but I digress)


As I remember Jeff Cooper made the point, back in the early 80's, that the term DAO indeed made no sense. He put forth the agrument that it should be referred to as "Triger cocking only" since that was the only one of the two functions of "double action" that it fufilled.

But of course I have only heard the definition Cooper used since about '73 or so, so I am still a newcomer.

Berto
05-21-2012, 20:53
Crunchentickers.

countrygun
05-21-2012, 21:31
Crunchentickers.


One of the Colonel's best pieces of wordsmithing:supergrin:

fnfalman
05-21-2012, 21:45
Crunchentickers.

Oh yeah, brings back memories.