This will make you rethink about how effective the 22lr can be! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Armchair Commando
05-13-2012, 14:18
.22 LR CCI MINI-MAG 36 gr Ballistic Gel Test - YouTube

Armchair Commando
05-13-2012, 14:19
.22LR LETHALITY - 300 Yard Ballistics Test - YouTube

TSAX
05-13-2012, 14:27
Did he say 12 lbs squirrel :faint:


Kung-Fu Squirrel - YouTube









:50cal:

Rustin
05-13-2012, 14:38
I never doubted it!

That reminds me, I need a Ruger 10/22!

Nakanokalronin
05-13-2012, 14:43
Good for small game but if your talking about SD, let's see some denim tests out of a rifle and the more commonly carried pistol. The .22lr can kill but I wouldn't want to be stuck with only that caliber as a SD option.

Armchair Commando
05-13-2012, 15:08
Good for small game but if your talking about SD, let's see some denim tests out of a rifle and the more commonly carried pistol. The .22lr can kill but I wouldn't want to be stuck with only that caliber as a SD option.

Watch the 2nd video, At 300 yards it penetrates completely through 8 layers of denim and 4-5 inches of a roast.

Aceman
05-13-2012, 15:09
To respond to the basic post: Yes, very impressive in general. For serious .22lr business and survival I use CCI Mini-mags and Stingers. I keep about 1000 of them on hand. My S&W M&P 15-22 really likes them.

Slightly deeper response: No, it doesn't make me rethink anything. I can show you how effective a toothpick CAN be. The bottom line is that it is not a sufficiently RELIABLE SD round. I defer to my classic "pig" experiment: Shoot 100 randomly walking/charging 150lb pigs with a Ruger Mk. III at say 25 feet. Timed shots, 2-3 max, no slow fire. Count how many stop advancing, and how many drop. There is your stopping/completely effective % ratings.

concretefuzzynuts
05-13-2012, 15:09
That video along with this one. Though I personally carry nothing smaller than .38 sp.

Mouse Guns - YouTube

Armchair Commando
05-13-2012, 15:16
To respond to the basic post: Yes, very impressive in general. For serious .22lr business and survival I use CCI Mini-mags and Stingers.

Slightly deeper response: No, it doesn't make me rethink anything. I can show you how effective a toothpick CAN be. The bottom line is that it is not a sufficiently RELIABLE SD round. I defer to my classic "pig" experiment: Shoot 100 randomly walking/charging 150lb pigs with a Ruger Mk. III at say 25 feet. Timed shots, no slow fire. Count how many stop advancing, and how many drop. There is your stopping/completely effective % ratings.

150lb pigs compared to a human, Hmm pigs are a lot tougher to kill not to mention penetration is a lot tougher. I've shot 6 wild boars with my 70lb mathews monster with 450 grain arrows and Magnus buzzcut broadheads and 5 of them i didn't even get a pass thru! My broadheads will penetrate much deeper and create much more blood loss than a SD round! That test is kinda pointless! And your going away from my topic, I never said it was a reliable SD round, I posted the videos to opens peoples eyes to what a 22lr is capable of!

AA#5
05-13-2012, 16:02
"Effective" on what?

TheStreetKing, it might make YOU rethink how effective the 22lr can be. That's because you are confusing "Killing Power" with "Stopping Power."

countrygun
05-13-2012, 16:10
Botulism can be deadly too, but it and the .22 lack the stopping power I want in a self defense tool.

dakrat
05-13-2012, 16:51
great! now see the same ammo fired from a pocket .22 pistol..... unless you can conceal a .22LR rifle.

Armchair Commando
05-13-2012, 17:51
great! now see the same ammo fired from a pocket .22 pistol..... unless you can conceal a .22LR rifle.

Great! Another person who lacks reading comprehension. Go back to school or reread the original post!

Armchair Commando
05-13-2012, 17:56
"Effective" on what?

TheStreetKing, it might make YOU rethink how effective the 22lr can be. That's because you are confusing "Killing Power" with "Stopping Power."

It does make me rethink how effective a 22lr can be at killing anything, For it to penetrate 8 layers of denim and 4-5 inches of flesh at 300 yards is pretty good!

fnfalman
05-13-2012, 18:05
"Effective" on what?

TheStreetKing, it might make YOU rethink how effective the 22lr can be. That's because you are confusing "Killing Power" with "Stopping Power."

Would you enlighten us peasants with this "Stopping Power"?

Where can we find them in scientific journals?

DonD
05-13-2012, 18:25
I'll chime in with a little different twist. I recently got a Remington 597 and the range I use can't allow offhand shooting at other than the pistol berms due to downrange limitations. The 100 yd range has bench rests with railroad ties making a tunnel to keep shots from going outside the berms.

So, sighted in at 25 yds, it was amazing how much drop there is at 100. Shooting at 300 let alone 400 yds would be a real rainbow event.

I was disgusted with CCI Velocitors, claimed velocity is something like 1430 fps, they clocked 1260 across an Oehler Model 35 chronograph, just 30 fps faster than Remington bulk "WalMart" ammo and costs nearly 3X as much.

The Remington, however, has been a fantastic gun, the best $200 I've ever spent on a gun. Nearly 1000 rds through it, not a single bobble or choke, very accurate, decent trigger, doesn't get anywhere near as dirty from shooting as the Ruger 10/22 it replaced. Amazingly decent little factory mounted 3-9X scope on it.

For defensive purposes, a Ruger Mini 30 is my house gun and a Ruger SP101 my CCW gun.
Don :supergrin:

MoCop
05-13-2012, 18:27
Not to say too much, but I have personally seen what a 22lr can do to a person (two, actually on a drive by). It wasn't pretty by any means and the dudes were out of the fight. Those little rounds can put a hurtin on someone.

Nakanokalronin
05-13-2012, 18:53
Does any LE agency issue 22lr pistols or rifles to officers other than for putting down a wounded animal? It's a neat cheap round that can work if it hits the right place but come on now. The guy in the video even makes fun of the gel test thinking everyone will go out and buy it as something fantastic for SD and if you didn't get that the first time, watch video #1 again.

The 22lr can do things but there are many many calibers that can do it better when it comes to defense. This dosn't take away from the fact that the 22lr can kill or wound, it's just that there are better choices.

Sporaticus
05-13-2012, 19:21
There was a thread on one of the sniper forums years ago where a member was testing the penetration of a .22 LR at distance. The results were very surprising.

itstime
05-13-2012, 19:54
I live fairly close to the school in Ohio that had the shooting with the loss of children's lives. .22 revolver.

Sad. Very sad indeed. But in real life the round worked.

I sat here wondering if I should write this but three high school kids died from this inferior round.

Talk all you want about it people. This wasn't a gel test.

Aceman
05-13-2012, 20:42
I live fairly close to the school in Ohio that had the shooting with the loss of children's lives. .22 revolver.

Sad. Very sad indeed. But in real life the round worked.

I sat here wondering if I should write this but three high school kids died from this inferior round.

Talk all you want about it people. This wasn't a gel test.

And it wasn't a defensive shooting against an armed/dangerous assailant either.

The is is never CAN it be dangerous - it is how RELIABLE is it in a self-defense scenario. That's like saying an AR always hit's +/- 1 MOA at 200 yards. Yeah - it is CAPABLE of that. But check out the bodies of those shot during combat. A healthy number did not get hit in the "10" and more than a few didn't stop...

Reliability kids, reliability...it's all about the odds, not statistical anomalies and anecdotes about "one time" this or that. Give me 100 armed assailants (or pigs) and take the shots and count the stops. There will absolutely be some...but nearly as many as you think.

FLglockdude
05-13-2012, 20:52
Kind of off topic here, but why do you feel the need to put your weight maxes in your signature on a gun forum?

Bully Stewie - YouTube

CajunBass
05-14-2012, 05:58
I don't have to "rethink" it. I've seen the damage it will do to squirrels, rabbits, hogs, dogs, cats, bats, rats...you get the idea.

History tells me that thousands if not millions of people have used it quite successfully for self and home defense. Has it failed at times. Of course it has, but so has everything else at one time or another.

Would I grab a 22 first? No, but if it's what I had, I wouldn't feel too bad about it.

The_Gun_Guru
05-14-2012, 06:41
"Effective" on what?

TheStreetKing, it might make YOU rethink how effective the 22lr can be. That's because you are confusing "Killing Power" with "Stopping Power."

There was an incident here in South FL where a ghetto scumbag tried to rob a fast food place, and when he herded the patrons and employees into a bathroom (IIRC), one of the customers pulled his KT P-32 and fired three rounds. The POS immediately turned and ran (survival instinct) but was found later on the side of the railroad tracks.....DEAD!

Your carry gun doesn't always need to STOP a bad guy, it can often be used to make the threat want to leave the scene. I'm not a LEO but I have enough common sense to realize that, just because a caliber is small, it doesn't mean that it's not effective at ending a bad situation.

Besides, not all of us can carry a 1911:wavey: There is no way that I could carry mine and be comfortable with it all day in the FL heat and humidity. Where you live oftem dictates what you can carry.

BTW.....I carry a KT P-32 (and did so BEFORE the above incident ever happened) and I have COMPLETE faith in what most consider a weak caliber.


TGG

Apetrulis01
05-14-2012, 08:36
Kind of off topic here, but why do you feel the need to put your weight maxes in your signature on a gun forum?

Bully Stewie - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3by4Z7ccFE)

Don't forget the avatar with the cell phone pick taken in front of a mirror.........

Jbar4Ranch
05-14-2012, 09:20
on March 30, 1981, Ronald Reagan, James Brady, Thomas Delahanty, and Timothy McCarthy were all hit by one round each of .22LR, resulting in three one-shot stops, and if standard contingency plans were not already in place for such emergencies, in this case a trauma room at George Washington University Hospital only four minutes away, President Reagan would likely have died.

While the lowly .22 isn't my first choice, a small .22/.25/.32/.380 in the pocket beats a big .40 or .45 at home in the safe every single time.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 09:35
While the lowly .22 isn't my first choice, a small .22/.25/.32/.380 in the pocket beats a big .40 or .45 at home in the safe every single time.

You're saying it's better to be armed with something rather than nothing....

Well....duh.

Shinesintx
05-14-2012, 09:48
I'll chime in with a little different twist. I recently got a Remington 597 and the range I use can't allow offhand shooting at other than the pistol berms due to downrange limitations. The 100 yd range has bench rests with railroad ties making a tunnel to keep shots from going outside the berms.

So, sighted in at 25 yds, it was amazing how much drop there is at 100. Shooting at 300 let alone 400 yds would be a real rainbow event.

I was disgusted with CCI Velocitors, claimed velocity is something like 1430 fps, they clocked 1260 across an Oehler Model 35 chronograph, just 30 fps faster than Remington bulk "WalMart" ammo and costs nearly 3X as much.

The Remington, however, has been a fantastic gun, the best $200 I've ever spent on a gun. Nearly 1000 rds through it, not a single bobble or choke, very accurate, decent trigger, doesn't get anywhere near as dirty from shooting as the Ruger 10/22 it replaced. Amazingly decent little factory mounted 3-9X scope on it.

For defensive purposes, a Ruger Mini 30 is my house gun and a Ruger SP101 my CCW gun.
Don :supergrin:

I am confused: If you sighted in at 25 yards...shouldnt it be spot on at 100?

jmaj
05-14-2012, 11:01
To digress a bit with a very informal test yesterday afternoon. Benjamin 22 pellet rifle, Gamo pointed 1 gram pellets. Shot through 1 1/4" of phonebook (rural area so its thin) with 5 pumps at ~50 ft. 8 pumps is the max. Gotta be be careful with that thing!

I occasionally carry a Bersa PPK clone in 22LR.

Jbar4Ranch
05-14-2012, 11:32
You're saying it's better to be armed with something rather than nothing....

Well....duh.

So, you're saying that's obvious...

Well... duh.

Armchair Commando
05-14-2012, 11:38
Don't forget the avatar with the cell phone pick taken in front of a mirror.........

That pic has been on here for 5 years as my avatar, The jealousy is pouring out of your pores, Otherwise you wouldn't of commented on it!

Armchair Commando
05-14-2012, 11:40
Kind of off topic here, but why do you feel the need to put your weight maxes in your signature on a gun forum?

Bully Stewie - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3by4Z7ccFE) Cause 90% of my posts are in the strength and conditioning forum! You know the lonely little place in glocktalk where people actually care about how they look and feel and try to live a healthy life.

concretefuzzynuts
05-14-2012, 12:06
Cause 90% of my posts are in the strength and conditioning forum! You know the lonely little place in glocktalk where people actually care about how they look and feel and try to live a healthy life.

http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w459/concretefuzzynuts/images-16.jpg
http://i1076.photobucket.com/albums/w459/concretefuzzynuts/DownloadedFile-3.jpg

Metal Angel
05-14-2012, 13:41
Two reasons I don't like .22lr for SD:
Killing power is not the same as stopping power. I've heard of a bazzilion instances where .22lr has killed someone, but usually it's not a quick death. I don't want my assailant beating me to death and then wandering off to die from the .22 caliber wound I inflicted on him. I want him to stop before he beats me to death and bigger bullets have better chances of stopping someone physiologically. (psychologically an airsoft gun can stop someone, but I don't want to have to bet my assailant has a weak psyche)

The other reason is reliability. Rimfire is just not as reliable. If nothing else, this should end the argument.

If a .22 was all I had, then I would use it and take my chances, but it's not, so I won't.

cowboywannabe
05-14-2012, 14:18
Cause 90% of my posts are in the strength and conditioning forum! You know the lonely little place in glocktalk where people actually care about how they look and feel and try to live a healthy life.

i told my wife that i have the body of a greek god, but she told me i have the body of a god damn greek.:rofl:

diamondd2
05-14-2012, 17:54
I myself am fairly impressed with the stopping/killing power of the 22lr. The 22lr is no joke. I have read more than once that the 22lr has caused more human deaths than any other round. And people say 9mm is not enough--idiots.

Im just not sure I am impressed with the inherent reliabity of the 22lr.

Anyway, I would like to see how well the 22WMR round does in ballistic tests.

M&P15T
05-14-2012, 17:59
Cause 90% of my posts are in the strength and conditioning forum! You know the lonely little place in glocktalk where people actually care about how they look and feel and try to live a healthy life.

I can understand that you're rightly proud of the time, effort and disciplen you put into your health.....

But....

You miiiiiight be overdoing it a bit with the picture.

It's just a thought.

Ususally on a forum such as this, when people post pictures of their "guns"....well.....they're firearms.....not fire arms, as in "POW! BOOM!! Check out these guns!!"

Metal Angel
05-14-2012, 18:03
I myself am fairly impressed with the stopping/killing power of the 22lr. The 22lr is no joke. I have read more than once that the 22lr has caused more human deaths than any other round. And people say 9mm is not enough--idiots.

Im just not sure I am impressed with the inherent reliabity of the 22lr.

Anyway, I would like to see how well the 22WMR round does in ballistic tests.

I have heard that a lot too, yet somehow no one can tell me where the database is that keeps track of how many people have been killed with each caliber... Hm... *coughbull****cough*

And even if it were true, HIV/AIDS kills tons of people, but I don't walk around with a syringe containing the disease. I don't give a crap if my bullet kills or not, I want it to stop someone as fast as possible. If it doesn't stop a person from killing me, by then he does from the wounds later, that doesn't really do me any good- but it does still count as a kill for the .22lr in that fabled database!

faawrenchbndr
05-14-2012, 18:06
So,........what's the point?!?

Small caliber, small channel, small hole!

diamondd2
05-14-2012, 18:42
I have heard that a lot too, yet somehow no one can tell me where the database is that keeps track of how many people have been killed with each caliber... Hm... *coughbull****cough*

And even if it were true, HIV/AIDS kills tons of people, but I don't walk around with a syringe containing the disease. I don't give a crap if my bullet kills or not, I want it to stop someone as fast as possible. If it doesn't stop a person from killing me, by then he does from the wounds later, that doesn't really do me any good- but it does still count as a kill for the .22lr in that fabled database!

Unload a magazine of 22lr into someones neck/chest/face area and see how fast they stop advancing.

But according to you, I guess nothing less than a 50bmg will suffice.

Have you actually ever been in a gun fight? Military, LE, etc?

Again, idiots.

USMC03Grunt
05-14-2012, 19:56
As far as .22s go, I have no problem with them for varmints, target shooting and plinking/practice. As far as self defense goes, it's my last choice I would go with if my only other option was a sharp stick. Eventually causing the death of a bad guy is not the same thing as stopping him from trying to kill you. i mean, what good does it do you if yes, he eventaully does succumb to a .22 wound an hour or so after he's killed you? Vengence from the grave I suppose might be something you could claim but you're still a toe tag.
As far as the "strength and conditioning" forum, I'll be honest, I didn't even know that was a forum on Glock talk. I mean, when I do a google search for "glock handgun forums" Glock talk is most likely going to be on the first page. Do a google search for "healthy living forums" and it's not like Glock talk comes in on page 1 of your search. Page 112 maybe but just not a place I would go for my first source of information. :whistling:

auto-5
05-14-2012, 20:14
If I had to walk away from the world into the woods with only one gun it would be a 10/22. By far they are the best all-around rifle for hunting rifle. It is quiet, accurate, easy to shoot and you can carry 1000 rounds with you easily.

JK-linux
05-14-2012, 20:26
.....

Metal Angel
05-14-2012, 20:27
Unload a magazine of 22lr into someones neck/chest/face area and see how fast they stop advancing.

But according to you, I guess nothing less than a 50bmg will suffice.

Have you actually ever been in a gun fight? Military, LE, etc?

Again, idiots.

By all means. Use .22LR for SD if that's what you want. If you think you can unload an entire magazine into someone's chest, kneck and face, then more power to ya. Clearly all the gunfights you have been in have made you acutely aware of the superiority of .22LR.

And no, I have never been in a LE or Military gunfight, but if I had, I wouldn't have been using a .22 because no department or branch issues a .22. I wonder why they don't... Maybe they haven't seen enough gunfights to recognize its superiority the way you have.

AA#5
05-14-2012, 20:27
That pic has been on here for 5 years as my avatar, The jealousy is pouring out of your pores, Otherwise you wouldn't of commented on it!

Aw, C'mon, TheStreetKing. Tell 'em the truth.

You're using MY body's photo on your head.

Wyoming
05-14-2012, 20:28
Would you enlighten us peasants with this "Stopping Power"?

Where can we find them in scientific journals?

:rofl:

I need enlighten also!

True, many have died from 22 gunshot wounds but there is a BIG difference between stopping power and eventually dying from your wounds.

alexanderg23
05-14-2012, 20:36
Yep thanks for posting. Obliviously it wouldn't be anyones 1st choice for SD, so I don't know why people even bother saying that. 8 layers of jeans and a chunk of meat at 300 yard IS impressive. And I don't know why people are messing with you about lifting weight and being proud of it, I would be if I could do 1/2 that much.

SteveHawaii
05-14-2012, 20:42
My dad used to hunt deer with a single shot .22 during the depression. It was as illegal then as it is now, but it put food on the table. But if anyone came walking into the house, I think he'd go with the 2X4.

DonD
05-14-2012, 20:49
I am confused: If you sighted in at 25 yards...shouldnt it be spot on at 100?

All depends on the rounds trajectory, the .22LR has a very rainbow like trajectory. Don

Berto
05-14-2012, 20:50
I agree people often underestimate the .22lr. There's no question it is very deadly and watching the Reagan assassination attempt does put things into perspective; Hinkley put three guys on the ground and another hauling ass to the hospital in no more than a couple seconds....using a POS RG six shot short bbl revolver.
Still, it's at the bottom of the totem pole for S/D rounds, esp in autos with its 'sometimes' rimfire ignition.

countrygun
05-14-2012, 20:51
Mossad has wasted plenty of armed, trained, active terrorists with the humble .22LR pistol. It will kill you just as dead, just as quickly, as any other pistol round and is to be respected. Of course, it's all shot placement. I'm not as good as a Mossad agent, and not particularly lucky, so I carry larger caliber pistols.


You do realize that Mossad agents are not, technically, "defending themselves" ? If I could arrainge to sneak up on the bad guy and pop him in the head I might feel better about the .22

mrsurfboard
05-14-2012, 22:33
The big problem with the 22LR as a defense round is it's reliability. Rimfires don't always go off when you pull the trigger.

owl6roll
05-14-2012, 22:49
I knew an old man who killed an attacker with a .22 short, one shot. The young man's screwdriver still in his hand.

checkyoursix
05-15-2012, 05:57
Since somebody mentioned the Mossad I remembered an article (http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/) I read time ago which explained how the "signature" pistols of the Mossad were the Beretta 70 and 71, both in .22 LR .

The guns were also carried by the Israeli Sky Marshals, which makes a lot of sense when you consider your options while inside a very thin bodied aircraft at 30,000ft.

I think the choice of the Mossad shows that it really depends on the situation, the constraints, the scenario. Dealing in absolutes rarely sheds light on anything.

By the way, if somebody wants to sell one of those Beretta's, I am game.

checkyoursix
05-15-2012, 06:09
You do realize that Mossad agents are not, technically, "defending themselves" ? If I could arrainge to sneak up on the bad guy and pop him in the head I might feel better about the .22

If you read the article I posted, you might want to revisit your statement, since the pistols were used also in combat situations very effectively.

DonD
05-15-2012, 07:44
The guns were also carried by the Israeli Sky Marshals, which makes a lot of sense when you consider your options while inside a very thin bodied aircraft at 30,000ft.

The idea that a slug making a hole in an airliner with a pressurized cabin will result in horrible events has been completely debunked, nothing will happen. Remember the Hawaiian airliner that lost about half of the fuselage and landed OK, no one lost? It would take a monstrous hole in an airliner at high altitude to do much. Don

checkyoursix
05-15-2012, 08:04
I am no expert on the matter of decompression, you are most likely right. I would then think that the use of that round is to minimize the risk of innocent casualties in a very crowded environment.

DEADEYEGUY
05-15-2012, 08:11
Every one knows the .22 is not a powerhouse. But I still here stupid comments from otherwise intelligent people that "if you shoot someone with a .22 you'll only make them mad". Any metal projectile going through a vital part of your body is likely going to cause you severe problems. Especially if followed up quickly by other metal projectiles in vital tissue. Over the years I've known and read of several instances where someone was DRT from a .22 or stopped.
Had a tragic negligent discharge here a couple of years ago in which a young man pointed an "unloaded" .22 rifle at his friends head and pulled the trigger. The bullet entered his brain and killed him right there. So it's still "placement, placement, placement. Another friend carries a Walther PPK in .22. He used to be a national ranked .45 shooter BTW.
He know has hand strength problems and can just carry a .22. Was attacked by a lowlife while on a walk. He put one round in the guys leg and he dropped screaming. Psychological stop? Probably. But a lot of people shot with handguns quit because they have been shot or are about to be. And they don't care about what caliber it is.
When I worked in the Private Security Sector many years ago I had to hold several people at gunpoint. Not one said "that's only a (fill in the caliber) so I'm not afraid of it.
One friend at my range is a former D.C. LEO. He told me almost every murder he investigated the victim was killed by a .22 or 9mm. Almost al the 9mm "ineffective" ball ammo BTW (not saying JHP's aren't better, they are but bad guys are apparently cheap). He said they went down fast most of the tome regardless of caliber because the perp kept shooting them until they did. "Stopping Power" is simply putting rounds into vitals as fast an as often as possible. Regardless of caliber.
And the U.S. has issued suppressed .22's for use by the Armed Forces and other for years. Not only did the Jewish State issue .22's to the Mossad they bought a bunch of suppressed 10/22's to use to brak up riots in the West Bank. The .22 has a long reputation of use by Military, Police, and civilians. Not a good general issue weapon for most applications. Yes the bigger sevice calibers are better. Yes their can be ignition problms with cheap rimfire ammo in guns. Also have a couple that are totaly reliable with rounds they like.
If you do your part a .22 can save your life. I think the point being missed here is that any firearm including centerfires can sometimes fail to stop someone. In spite of myths about some calibers being "stone cold killers" forget it. Caliber does not save you. Effective use of your weapon whatever it is saves you. .22, 9mm, .45, .223 or whatever have great sucesses and failures. If you have to carry a .22 for whatever reason get good at making fast accurate hits with it. What goes on beyond that is effected more by the nature of the person(s) you are defending against. Drugs, alcohol, rage, fear, body type, emotionally disturb, clothing worn, and on and on effect things more than anything you can do.
Again your gun won't save you. Whatever it is using your weapon well increases your chances of survival. Their are no guarantees. Those thinking that carrying a specific caliber will protect them or is like a "bolt of death" are severly kidding themselves. Good technique, tactics, and a little luck are what save you. Not a number etched onto your handguns barrel. Yes some bullet calibers are better than others. But handguns as a whole suck at stopping people.

DairyFresh
05-15-2012, 10:11
I wonder if all these outstanding statistics on the .22 take into account the fact that the vast majority of shootings just happen to take place with a cheap .22.

I'd like to see a ratio of shootings to fatalities regarding .22lr

Just because ford sells 5 million focuses a year, and Mercedes only sells 200-300 CLKs doesn't prove the focus is the more desirable of the 2......

concretefuzzynuts
05-15-2012, 10:17
When at the range, I will have the occasional bad round when shooting .22, sometimes 2 or 3 out of a box of 50. I do not choose to carry the caliber because of that.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 11:38
Since somebody mentioned the Mossad I remembered an article (http://www.tactical-life.com/online/tactical-weapons/israeli-mossad-22-lrs/) I read time ago which explained how the "signature" pistols of the Mossad were the Beretta 70 and 71, both in .22 LR .

The guns were also carried by the Israeli Sky Marshals, which makes a lot of sense when you consider your options while inside a very thin bodied aircraft at 30,000ft.

I think the choice of the Mossad shows that it really depends on the situation, the constraints, the scenario. Dealing in absolutes rarely sheds light on anything.

By the way, if somebody wants to sell one of those Beretta's, I am game.


Would it happen to look like the bottom pistol in this pic?

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu208/countrygun/IM002448.jpg

No, it's not for sale. Somebody decided to polish off the black finish on the frame so I got it for a song

DonD
05-15-2012, 11:46
I am no expert on the matter of decompression, you are most likely right. I would then think that the use of that round is to minimize the risk of innocent casualties in a very crowded environment.

That's certainly an issue, however, had a competent Marshal been on the 911 flights, even if they missed and hit someone, they could have easily defeated box cutters and saved some 3000 lives, the destruction of the WTC towers and the damage to the Pentagon.

For a while, I had a responsive contact in TSA and got the name of a supervisor with the Marshals. I suggested that the TSA give volunteer law enforcement officers the same training the Marshals get and when they fly, they're deputized and get the ticket free. No benefits, no retirement, just a ticket. Cheap manpower. That could dramatically increase the number of trained, competent shooters on flights and virtually ensure no more 911 incidents. The supervisor liked the idea but said it would never go anywhere, I was tampering with too many "rice bowls." Don

Magus
05-15-2012, 12:00
My dad is a retired LEO, worked as a homicide investigator.

.22LR more often than not was used in the shootings he investigated. From some of the stories he shared with me, .22LR upon entering a human head is a truly heinous thing.

Certainly doesn't look that bad on the surface, but it's what it does on the inside that makes it so deadly. Upon impact to the skull, given is such a small soft piece of metal, it fragments into smaller pieces and essentially just chews your brain up. Doesn't take much damage to your brain to kill you or leave you pretty much a permanent vegetable.

For anyone who ever survived a shot or two of .22 to the head, it was often referred to by LEO's as a "surgeons nightmare" due to the small fragments that they had to try and remove.

Metal Angel
05-15-2012, 13:01
My dad is a retired LEO, worked as a homicide investigator.

.22LR more often than not was used in the shootings he investigated. From some of the stories he shared with me, .22LR upon entering a human head is a truly heinous thing.

Certainly doesn't look that bad on the surface, but it's what it does on the inside that makes it so deadly. Upon impact to the skull, given is such a small soft piece of metal, it fragments into smaller pieces and essentially just chews your brain up. Doesn't take much damage to your brain to kill you or leave you pretty much a permanent vegetable.

For anyone who ever survived a shot or two of .22 to the head, it was often referred to by LEO's as a "surgeons nightmare" due to the small fragments that they had to try and remove.

9mm JHPs on the other hand, pass through the brain without causing any permanent damage, and sergeons often give these GSW operations to inexperienced interns because of how easy it is to fix up.

Berto
05-15-2012, 13:05
9mm JHPs on the other hand, pass through the brain without causing any permanent damage, and sergeons often give these GSW operations to inexperienced interns because of how easy it is to fix up.

Right on, I always wondered what sergeons did.

Just_plinking
05-15-2012, 13:31
When at the range, I will have the occasional bad round when shooting .22, sometimes 2 or 3 out of a box of 50. I do not choose to carry the caliber because of that.

I may just be lucky, but I honestly cant remember having a .22 cartridge that was a dud. I don't shoot all that much, and I'm sure it's happened sometime, I just can't remember it. I shoot it out of a marlin 60 that i've had since I was a kid. I wonder how many of these bad rounds are partly attributable to the guns they are being fired in.

FWIW I shoot the cheap stuff, probably mostly remmington thunderbolt.

In the end, it's a moot point for me, I don't ever plan on using a .22 for defense.

And as to the Mossad reference, all of the accounts I've read on the subject portray multiple shooters firing multiple rounds at point blank distances at targets who were surprised. So I don't think you can apply much from that to a self defense situation.

Edit: If I remember correctly in the book "Vengeance" the firearms instructor teaching the Mossad agents emphasizes that their .22 firearms are for assassination, not defense, and Never to pull the trigger only once.

concretefuzzynuts
05-15-2012, 13:42
I may just be lucky, but I honestly cant remember having a .22 cartridge that was a dud. I don't shoot all that much, and I'm sure it's happened sometime, I just can't remember it. I shoot it out of a marlin 60 that i've had since I was a kid. I wonder how many of these bad rounds are partly attributable to the guns they are being fired in.

FWIW I shoot the cheap stuff, probably mostly remmington thunderbolt.

In the end, it's a moot point for me, I don't ever plan on using a .22 for defense.

And as to the Mossad reference, all of the accounts I've read on the subject portray multiple shooters firing multiple rounds at point blank distances at targets who were surprised. So I don't think you can apply much from that to a self defense situation.

Edit: If I remember correctly in the book "Vengeance" the firearms instructor teaching the Mossad agents emphasizes that their .22 firearms are for assassination, not defense, and Never to pull the trigger only once.

Funny you should mention them but the last box of Remington Thunderbolt had one dud. The casing had a nice deep primer strike. I put it in another .22 I had with me and still no good.

AK_Stick
05-15-2012, 13:56
Unload a magazine of 22lr into someones neck/chest/face area and see how fast they stop advancing.

But according to you, I guess nothing less than a 50bmg will suffice.

Have you actually ever been in a gun fight? Military, LE, etc?

Again, idiots.


I'm not betting on getting more than a shot or two off during a civilian SD encounter.


While a 22 will certainly kill someone dead, my problem, is its not big enough, or powerful enough to reliably reach the vitals, and STOP them from whatever they were doing that initiated said shooting.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 14:04
I'm not betting on getting more than a shot or two off during a civilian SD encounter.


While a 22 will certainly kill someone dead, my problem, is its not big enough, or powerful enough to reliably reach the vitals, and STOP them from whatever they were doing that initiated said shooting.


Ironic, the less "instant effect" the bullet has the more you need repeated shots, the results of needing more shots is less chance of having the time to deliver them before you discover how effective your opponents choice of gun is.

Just_plinking
05-15-2012, 14:45
Funny you should mention them but the last box of Remington Thunderbolt had one dud. The casing had a nice deep primer strike. I put it in another .22 I had with me and still no good.

Haha, I mentioned them knowing some people have had bad luck with them. I hope it didn't sound like I was questioning your story. I just think, based on my luck, that there is some other piece of the puzzle missing. I'm not knowledgeable enough to guess what it is. Like I said nearly all the .22 shooting that i've done has been out of one rifle. I just hope my good luck holds out.

I bought a federal 550 bulk pack that i've yet to try. I'm really interested to see how it does.

concretefuzzynuts
05-15-2012, 14:54
Haha, I mentioned them knowing some people have had bad luck with them. I hope it didn't sound like I was questioning your story. I just think, based on my luck, that there is some other piece of the puzzle missing. I'm not knowledgeable enough to guess what it is. Like I said nearly all the .22 shooting that i've done has been out of one rifle. I just hope my good luck holds out.

I bought a federal 550 bulk pack that i've yet to try. I'm really interested to see how it does.

No prob, cuz.

countrygun
05-15-2012, 14:54
I have close to 30 .22s and I pretty much expect about 1 "Dud" per 100 rds in"bulk brick" ammo across the brands of ammo and guns. Some brands of ammo have given 1 or 2 per box of 50, no matter what gun. The Remington in the brown and white box with the "old time" label is an example. I don't know the exact name of that line because I won't have another box of it in the house.

Nestor
05-15-2012, 15:02
You Guys can stick with 22 and I'll stick with 38 or 9.
This way we both are happy, well and alive...at least for some time I guess.

eracer
05-15-2012, 15:05
I was disgusted with CCI Velocitors, claimed velocity is something like 1430 fps, they clocked 1260 across an Oehler Model 35 chronograph, just 30 fps faster than Remington bulk "WalMart" ammo and costs nearly 3X as much.This is very surprising.

I'm going to take my Ruger 77/22 (20" barrel) to the range this weekend and chrono some Velocitors.

Velocitors are the most accurate .22 LR ammo I've found, but I've never chrono'd them.

concretefuzzynuts
05-15-2012, 15:09
You Guys can stick with 22 and I'll stick with 38 or 9.
This way we both are happy, well and alive...at least for some time I guess.

.40 for SD and EDC. .22 for plinkin!

eracer
05-15-2012, 15:11
The idea that a slug making a hole in an airliner with a pressurized cabin will result in horrible events has been completely debunked, nothing will happen. Remember the Hawaiian airliner that lost about half of the fuselage and landed OK, no one lost? It would take a monstrous hole in an airliner at high altitude to do much. Don

From Wiki

Pressure vessel engineer Matt Austin has proposed an alternative hypothesis to explain the disintegration of the fuselage of Flight 243. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243#cite_note-mayday-6)[/URL]This explanation postulates that initially the fuselage failed as intended and opened a ten-inch square vent. As the cabin air escaped at over 700 mph, flight attendant C.B. Lansing became wedged in the vent instead of being immediately thrown clear of the aircraft. The blockage would have immediately created a pressure spike in the escaping air, a fluid hammer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243#cite_note-fluidhammer-7), which tore the jet apart. The NTSB recognizes this hypothesis, but the board does not share the conclusion and maintains its original finding that the fuselage failed at multiple points at once. Former NTSB investigator Brian Richardson, who led the NTSB study of Flight 243, believes the fluid hammer explanation deserves further study.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243#cite_note-fluidhammer-7"]

mrt949
05-15-2012, 16:08
Have felow shooting friends . That have seen thair share of damage done by handgun calibers. The answer is have something with you .The damage you do might save your life. A 22LR is better than nothing . My BERETTA 21 A is in my pocket always.

DonD
05-15-2012, 18:26
This is very surprising.

I'm going to take my Ruger 77/22 (20" barrel) to the range this weekend and chrono some Velocitors.

Velocitors are the most accurate .22 LR ammo I've found, but I've never chrono'd them.

I've got an email buddy who was rather high up in Ruger's Prescott, AZ plant before he retired. He said at least part of the reason for the large discrepancy in the velocity is because CCI uses a fixed breech test fixture, like a bolt action, rather than the velocity robbing blow back action most .22LR semi autos use. Don

Rally Vincent
05-15-2012, 18:34
What makes any self defense weapon effective is the shooter.
If a .22lr is all I can work into my wardrobe, then I'm confident enough in my marksmanship to know that I can make up for the bullets lack of diameter with skill and training.

concretefuzzynuts
05-15-2012, 18:47
I've got an email buddy who was rather high up in Ruger's Prescott, AZ plant before he retired. He said at least part of the reason for the large discrepancy in the velocity is because CCI uses a fixed breech test fixture, like a bolt action, rather than the velocity robbing blow back action most .22LR semi autos use. Don

That would make sense both on the test results and from a marketing aspect.

HiVel
05-16-2012, 08:28
I like -S&W 22 Mag revolver with the new "SD"ammo -this is a whole new bag of tricks !!