Consider our present race towards poverty and oblivion.. [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Consider our present race towards poverty and oblivion..


Skyhook
05-14-2012, 06:10
..it isn't anything that has not been examined:


"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,
the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy,
its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.."
-- Winston Churchill

certifiedfunds
05-14-2012, 06:44
I disagree with Churchill here. His quote sort of implies an honest pursuit of socialism. He's describing essentially how socialism is bought by or sold to the masses.

Socialism is far more evil than that and the actual perpetrators more diabolical and greedy. For the masses I think he's right. But for those that actually enact socialism, they're evil scum who destroy the human spirit for power and wealth.

barbedwiresmile
05-14-2012, 07:31
While I agree that socialism is a moral outrage and an economic failure, what does socialism have to do with the modern USA? The political philosophy of our modern government is certainly informed by an "ism" other than market capitalism. And it's horrifically bad for our present and future. But it's not socialism. Far from it.

Gundude
05-14-2012, 08:42
Socialism is far more evil than that and the actual perpetrators more diabolical and greedy. For the masses I think he's right. But for those that actually enact socialism, they're evil scum who destroy the human spirit for power and wealth.That's not socialism, that's humanity. You can talk about abstract systems all you want, but in reality, where humans are involved, those in a position to do so will enrich themselves at the expense of everybody else. Free market capitalism is a system designed to accept that reality while socialism is one that pretends to ignore it or even deny it, but in the end it's always there.

Toyman
05-14-2012, 08:48
Maybe this is a better name for it:

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves are rewarded with the goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

certifiedfunds
05-14-2012, 09:46
That's not socialism, that's humanity. You can talk about abstract systems all you want, but in reality, where humans are involved, those in a position to do so will enrich themselves at the expense of everybody else. Free market capitalism is a system designed to accept that reality while socialism is one that pretends to ignore it or even deny it, but in the end it's always there.

Bravo Sierra

In a free market, capitalists do not "enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else".

Brucev
05-14-2012, 10:25
Bravo Sierra

In a free market, capitalists do not "enrich themselves at the expense of everyone else".

Bull. Proof? Just consider the wingtippers of wall street. They use other people's money and other people's tax support to enrich themselves while destroying the housing industry, etc. And because they own and operate those who occupy the legislative and executive branch, none of them go to prison. Except ole Bernie Madoff... as he actually hurt some of the wrong folks... the one who thought only little people ever got burned by criminals. He had to go to prison. His criminal conduct hit the wrong folks in their investment accounts. But the rest of the wingtippers, why they got all sorts of bonuses, etc. for doing a fine job of "enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else."

Skyhook
05-14-2012, 10:55
Maybe this is a better name for it:

Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) A system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves are rewarded with the goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Good one.

Like Obama, though, it will evolve eventually. Evolve into what? Probably some form of socialism.

BTW, this interview with Jonah might interest you and others; (it's rather long but it is also long on erudition).
http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/13/leaders-with-ginni-thomas-jonah-goldberg/

Skyhook
05-14-2012, 11:00
Bull. Proof? Just consider the wingtippers of wall street. They use other people's money and other people's tax support to enrich themselves while destroying the housing industry, etc. And because they own and operate those who occupy the legislative and executive branch, none of them go to prison. Except ole Bernie Madoff... as he actually hurt some of the wrong folks... the one who thought only little people ever got burned by criminals. He had to go to prison. His criminal conduct hit the wrong folks in their investment accounts. But the rest of the wingtippers, why they got all sorts of bonuses, etc. for doing a fine job of "enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else."

Is something missing, here? Like free will, for instance?
Except for our forced support of crony capitalists supporting Obama, as an example, most folks investing in one or another business or enterprise do it of their own free will. You have money, you pick and chose where to throw it.

Socialism, as I think it is defined, allows none of that-- or just the tiniest shadow of it.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 11:18
Bull. Proof? Just consider the wingtippers of wall street. They use other people's money and other people's tax support to enrich themselves

Drama and falsehood is not proof.

1. Everyone who goes to work, does so to enrich themselves.

a. You don't go to work to support your neighbor.
b. You don't go to work to get poorer.

2. They did not use other's tax support in the process, it came in to save the banks as a result.

a. If the bank was "too big to fail", then it should be broken up.
b. Using other people's money to make money is called market capitalization. All companies on the stock exchanges do this. There's nothing wrong with it.

Yes, there is gambling in the casino.

And because they own and operate those who occupy the legislative and executive branch, none of them go to prison.

No, they do not. Hyperbole and drama. Rich folk on Wall St do contribute, but less and less, hence the latest drama on gay marriage. (Wall St not contributing as much to the BHO campaign because he's anti business, so the next best thing is Hollywood and that 1 in 6 bundlers is gay, 1,000,000 in donations the first hour after the announcement)

Except ole Bernie Madoff... as he actually hurt some of the wrong folks...

Actual criminal. Not hyperbole or drama.


Entire post fail. Start again.

certifiedfunds
05-14-2012, 11:19
Bull. Proof? Just consider the wingtippers of wall street. They use other people's money and other people's tax support to enrich themselves while destroying the housing industry, etc. And because they own and operate those who occupy the legislative and executive branch, none of them go to prison. Except ole Bernie Madoff... as he actually hurt some of the wrong folks... the one who thought only little people ever got burned by criminals. He had to go to prison. His criminal conduct hit the wrong folks in their investment accounts. But the rest of the wingtippers, why they got all sorts of bonuses, etc. for doing a fine job of "enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else."

Uh, Bruce.......that isn't free market capitalism. Thank your government.

And for the record, the government screwed the housing market. The government created the corrupt atmosphere that everyone existed in. Banks and buyers included.

Yes. They're criminals. Criminals operating within the regulatory environment with the blessing of their political cronies. Not free. If it were free most of them would be out of work right now.

You're as far off to the left as usual.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 11:33
while destroying the housing industry, etc.

Government did this.

Fannie Mae: Quasi-governmental agency.

Franklin Raines: CEO of FM, former Clinton toady, devout democrap.

If Franklin Raines was allowed to keep 1 million dollars for every year he was at FM, he'd still have to give back 80 million dollars.

FM sets the standards for how your corner bank must lend if it wants to get re-capitalized by Fannie.

Franklin Raines distorted accounting periods (Google "Fannie Restatement project") and lowered the bar to get the churn that allowed him to give himself and the FM board fat juicy bonuses.

Barney Fwank and Chris Dodd, FM's courtesans (whores…no wait, pimps…) in Congwess gave FM cover to operate as it did.

All Government, and democrap at that.

The banks, and most REASONABLE PEOPLE were of the mindset that when a government security was offered for sale by government agencies, that it was a safe bet. How.Dare.They.

Wall st bought the crap securities, marketed them as you would expect since they're not wall paper or an office decoration, and sold them to make a profit, the business they're in. The .gov is responsible for all of it.

So all the Occupy Wall st idiots, are occupying the wrong thing. The Criminal is the Government, and we need to throw the dems out, en masse.

certifiedfunds
05-14-2012, 11:36
The forensic work has been largely done. The verdict is in.

Government did it.

The reason we don't have a bunch of folks going to jail should provide Brucev all the "proof" he needs that it was GOVERNMENT.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 13:17
Is something missing, here? Like free will, for instance?
Except for our forced support of crony capitalists supporting Obama, as an example, most folks investing in one or another business or enterprise do it of their own free will. You have money, you pick and chose where to throw it.

Socialism, as I think it is defined, allows none of that-- or just the tiniest shadow of it.

The wingtippers on wall street were there before the squatter and they will be there after the squatter is evicted. The wingtippers are the ones who gambled other people's money in a derivative crap shoot. They padded their pockets while they destroyed the investments of others by lying about to investors about the nature and content of the investments.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 13:26
[QUOTE=G29Reload;18965427]Drama and falsehood is not proof. In this case, it get the point made... that the wingtippers have conducted the crime of the century and not been held accountable because they own and operate the legislative and executive branches for their own benefit. They are not there for the good of Americans. They are there for the good of themselves. They are no different that crack dealers.

1. Everyone who goes to work, does so to enrich themselves. Irrelevant. Not at issue.

a. You don't go to work to support your neighbor.
b. You don't go to work to get poorer.

2. They did not use other's tax support in the process, it came in to save the banks as a result. That is a lie hatched in the hell of conservative excuse making.

a. If the bank was "too big to fail", then it should be broken up.
b. Using other people's money to make money is called market capitalization. All companies on the stock exchanges do this. There's nothing wrong with it. The process of using derivatives and the extended camouflage of what comprised those items, the direct misrepresentation of such to investors, etc. is not at all is nothing less than criminal... except of course for the fact that the criminals own and operate the ones who write the laws... and so of course they are not "criminals." They are businessmen... like Al Capone. All clear.
Yes, there is gambling in the casino. And there are wingtippers on wall street who have used other people's money to pad their own pockets with bonuses for failure.



No, they do not. Hyperbole and drama. Rich folk on Wall St do contribute, but less and less, hence the latest drama on gay marriage. (Wall St not contributing as much to the BHO campaign because he's anti business, so the next best thing is Hollywood and that 1 in 6 bundlers is gay, 1,000,000 in donations the first hour after the announcement)



Actual criminal. Not hyperbole or drama. Correct. One of many wingtippers who are criminals. Only problem, he is the only one who is doing time for his crime. The rest are getting away with their crimes.


Entire post fail. Start again. You opinion might be worthwhile if you were capable of actually making sense. But that is for you an impossibility.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 13:34
[QUOTE=certifiedfunds;18965433]Uh, Bruce.......that isn't free market capitalism. Thank your government. That those who own and operate the govt. for their own benefit, those flat footed wingtippers on wall street.

And for the record, the government screwed the housing market. The government created the corrupt atmosphere that everyone existed in. Banks and buyers included. Bull. That song and dance doesn't play any more. To many people can see that the wingtippers and their crowd are not paying any penalties for their screw ups. No one is fired, etc. Instead they reward each other with bonuses... using of course other people's money.

Yes. They're criminals. Criminals operating within the regulatory environment with the blessing of their political cronies. Not free. If it were free most of them would be out of work right now. The wingtippers own the law makers and the justice system. They use it to their own interest. That of course has absolutely nothing to do with right or justice. It's just about money. And that almost never has anything to do with either right or money.

You're as far off to the left as usual.So be it. Best thing anyone can do is look for where you are heading and go the other way.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 13:41
[QUOTE=G29Reload;18965475] "Government did this." Etc., etc., etc. Complete Bull. Simply more of the same mantra recited ad nausium ad infinitium by those whose interest are best served by such stupidity. If you don't like it, tough. The wingtippers want to shirk the blame for their failures onto anyone else but themselves. Understandable. They don't want to be held responsible.

As to your distaste for gov. agencies, so what? When it comes to business, the need for regulatory agencies is obvious. Business cannot be trusted. It must be held accountable. (How's that suit you?)

Brucev
05-14-2012, 13:43
The forensic work has been largely done. The verdict is in.

Government did it.

The reason we don't have a bunch of folks going to jail should provide Brucev all the "proof" he needs that it was GOVERNMENT.

It was the wingtippers on wall street. And... the 99% know it. Come Nov., the 99% will remember why "it's still the economy... stupid." And come Nov., the 99% will vote their wallets, exactly the same way the wingtippers vote their wallets.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 16:46
In this case, it get the point made... that the wingtippers have conducted the crime of the century and not been held accountable because they own and operate the legislative and executive branches for their own benefit.

No, they don't.

Government employees are government employees.

Barney Fwank is an elected official.
As is (was) Chris Dodd.

Franklin Raines was an employee of FM.

No matter how much you wish to deny reality, the securities sold were GOVERNMENT SECURITIES.

Wall St and those on it did not originate the financial instruments. Period. No matter how much you scream and stamp your feet, that's the truth. Fannie Mae originated the securities and sold them to Wall St.

Wall St and those on it are RESELLERS. That's how it works. That's how it STILL WORKS.

Wall St had no more expectation that the instruments were bad than the average guy on the street does with his Savings Bonds. When it comes from the Government, you expect security.

Instead of smoking pot with 1%'er anarchists in the park, you ought to go back to school and learn how the real world works. Private banks and "wingtippers" DO NOT originate government securities. Fannie and Freddie do. They recapitalize in the secondary market, and bring TO Wall St.

That is the indisputable order of things, how they worked and STILL work.

They are there for the good of themselves. They are no different that crack dealers.

Or anyone else that goes to work every day. I work for the good of myself. No one else, except when i have taxes forcibly confiscated from my check.


1. Everyone who goes to work, does so to enrich themselves. Irrelevant. Not at issue.

Yes, it is. This is capitalism, this is what we do. Wall st bankers don't go to work to lose money, though that happens at times. There are no guarantees in life, that seems to be what upsets you the most.


2. They did not use other's tax support in the process, it came in to save the banks as a result.[/I] That is a lie hatched in the hell of conservative excuse making.

No, its a fact of record. Bailouts didn't occur till after the fact. There was no need for the help BEFORE something went wrong. You don't bailout someone not in trouble. Hellllooo!

The process of using derivatives and the extended camouflage of what comprised those items, the direct misrepresentation of such to investors, etc. is not at all is nothing less than criminal...

They were selling government securities. It doens't matter how you dress it up. If the securities were BAD, what was Fannie and FReddie doing putting them on the market?

Fannie and Freddie, the quasi governmental agencies, headed by the likes of Franklin Raines, a Clinton toady, and his apologists in Congress (who I agree are criminals) put this crap together and sold it wall st for re-sale. That's how the system works. That's the parade of events. They are responsible for letting garbage on the market.

You opinion might be worthwhile if you were capable of actually making sense. But that is for you an impossibility.

I''ve been a consultant at FM. I know how it works and have seen it with my own two eyes. You have not a clue what you're talking about.

But apparently, you have a lot of sympathy for the OWS types. You're an anarchist, I get it. You make a living sewing dissent and misinformation. But facts don't lie.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 16:54
It was the wingtippers on wall street. And... the 99% know it. Come Nov., the 99% will remember why "it's still the economy... stupid." And come Nov., the 99% will vote their wallets, exactly the same way the wingtippers vote their wallets.

It is the height of arrogance to presume that everyone else is in the 99%, as though its everyone together against just a few really rich people. Speak for yourself.

Its not 99%. Not even close. More like, the top 53% who are paying taxes for all the freeloaders paying nothing in the bottom 47 %, with the bottommost trouble makers, maybe the lowest 5% out making trouble.

Hef
05-14-2012, 17:16
It was the wingtippers on wall street. And... the 99% know it. Come Nov., the 99% will remember why "it's still the economy... stupid." And come Nov., the 99% will vote their wallets, exactly the same way the wingtippers vote their wallets.

Your "99%" is, at most, only 47%, and comprised primarily of those who use far more in taxpayer-funded services than the "wingtippers", while contributing little or nothing to the public coffers.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 19:20
[QUOTE=G29Reload;18966613]"No, they don't." etc., etc., etc.

Govt. employees are (you got it right) govt. employees... civil engineers, clerks, accountants, lawyers, all sort of folks in the military services... v.a., etc. yep they'll all "govt. employees." Some of them are fine folk.

As to your whining about various elected officials, so what? The same thing can be said of the good folks who brought the U.S. taxpayer the savings and loan disaster (remember that??? Hum???).

The banks repackaged the toxic loans and so combined them that a magician could not have figured out exactly what was what in that mess. Then like mislabeling poison that mess was sold to investors who had no reason to suspect that a fraud was being perpetrated.

To suppose that the wingtippers were "ignorant" of what was going on is simply to much to believe. They knew exactly what they were doing. And they were able to do so largely because of the lack of proper regulatory supervision.

If you want to smoke something or snort something, you go right ahead. What you are and what you do of no consequences. To believe anything you say on this matter would be like listening to and believing a lawyer for a liar as he tried to explain "the truth." The vast majority of people in this country know that they have come out on the short end of the stick and that the wingtippers on wall street have gotten bonuses for bringing about the largest financial meltdown in the history of the nation. And of course the wingtippers blame someone else... anyone else but themselves. Understandable. They're not very good at being responsible.

You work? Good. So do many many other people. So what else is new. You don't like paying taxes? So what? There are probably lots of things you don't like. Get over it. You are not the world. You don't get to make the rules. You instead have to live by the rules that are made by those who win the elections. You don't get to pick and choose the ones that apply to you and the ones that don't.

Possibly there are some decent people on wall street. But it is exceedingly unlikely that they are the wingtippers.... the ones who orchestrated this crime of the century. If such criminal conduct is business, then let them all be put out of business.

It may be that you are a decent hard working person who acts with integrity. It may be. Problem is, you are associated with the equivalent of a criminal class. No rational man can trust any one of them as far as they can spit in a high wind. If that upsets you, so be it.

The bail outs began under Bush... right? It was republicans who led the charge for bailing out the wingtippers on wall street... right? And in trouble or not, the banks all got money... right? Right. And who paid for the banks and their precious investors to be saved from their own failure... the taxpayer. Right? Right

They... the banks... were playing games with other peoples money. They were playing casino finance because they knew they wouldn't have to pay the price of loosing. They mixed and matched the loans and then put them out as quality investments when they knew the things were trash.

If you work for FM, fine. There is a role for FM. Problem is, anyone can claim to be anything they want on the internet.

You must be telepathic to "know" what someone thinks. Amazing. As to the folks in OWS, they are about like the TPM... together they are well intentioned but that's about all. The demokrats are not listening to the OWS. And the republicans certainly are not listening to the TPM.

In one thing you are dead right. Dissent. It is a beautiful word describing those who have sufficient integrity to refuse to agree when they do not agree. In the eyes of those with whom they disagree, dissenters are of course seen as unpleasant troublemakers. Those in power seldom yield willingly. And as troublesome as they find the dissenters, the fact is that it serves a good purpose for the commonwealth. Dissenters keep everyone else honest.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 19:29
It is the height of arrogance to presume that everyone else is in the 99%, as though its everyone together against just a few really rich people. Speak for yourself.

Its not 99%. Not even close. More like, the top 53% who are paying taxes for all the freeloaders paying nothing in the bottom 47 %, with the bottommost trouble makers, maybe the lowest 5% out making trouble.

What's a percent or two or three... or even 99%? Suppose it is not 99% but 80%, or maybe... 61%? One thing is certain. Those who comprise the smaller percentage do not have sufficient numbers to outvote those who comprise the larger percentage. The terrible tryanny of the majority inexorably has its way. So... if the 1%ers or the 10%ers or the whatever they are can... they must make their best case to the majority. Or they must learn to like the taste of loosing. Because the day is over when a little cabal can call the shots while everyone else just has to stand by and take what comes.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 19:30
Your "99%" is, at most, only 47%, and comprised primarily of those who use far more in taxpayer-funded services than the "wingtippers", while contributing little or nothing to the public coffers.

Sounds like someone is not happy. Perhaps they feel like it isn't "fair." But, that's the American way... you know... capitalism and freedom of choice, and voting and all that good stuff.

Hef
05-14-2012, 19:43
Sounds like someone is not happy. Perhaps they feel like it isn't "fair." But, that's the American way... you know... capitalism and freedom of choice, and voting and all that good stuff.

Only a fool would be happy with our current state of affairs, and only an idiot could believe our tax code is fair. Our economic problems are due not to capitalism, but to governmental meddling in our capitalism. Given the tactics employed by our government in determining and collecting individual tax obligations, I have trouble not laughing at the idea that there is any sort of "freedom of choice" involved in how our government is funded.

You just don't make any sense at all.

Brucev
05-14-2012, 20:00
Only a fool would be happy with our current state of affairs, and only an idiot could believe our tax code is fair. Our economic problems are due not to capitalism, but to governmental meddling in our capitalism. Given the tactics employed by our government in determining and collecting individual tax obligations, I have trouble not laughing at the idea that there is any sort of "freedom of choice" involved in how our government is funded.

You just don't make any sense at all.

Thoughtful people and even fools commonly found among conservatives and liberals and libertarians are dissatisfied with the way things are. Of course the tax code needs to be reviewed... and returned back to the rates and structures that existed prior to Reagan.

As to regulation, there is a place for it, the more the better. If that gets the wingtippers shorts in a wad, tough. Let them whine all the way to the unemployment line. After all, if that sort of thing was the needed tonic for Joe Six Pack, then it will do just as much good for the wingtippers. And if it's freedom of choice you miss, again, tough. You don't get to opt out of the society in which you live and derive your income, etc., just because you don't like the idea that you have to actually participate in that society as a personal cost.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 20:42
As to your whining about various elected officials, so what? .

So what? You sound as though you'd hang a banker in the public square, but when I redirect your anger at the proper source, i'm whining, and its, "so what?"

So, rage is against the private sector, no doubt envy driven, but the government, ah, who cares…lets get back to apathy.

Have I got that right?

The same thing can be said of the good folks who brought the U.S. taxpayer the savings and loan disaster (remember that??? Hum???).

Change the subject much? You need to quit while you're losing.



The banks repackaged the toxic loans

THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS OFFERING FOR SALE!

So, without avoiding the question, or changing the subject, why were the toxic loans

-even made?
-once made, having been loaned on government spec, what was the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT doing offering them to wall st to sell?

That's where the argument ends. Period.

Since I am technically proficient in how FM operates, know this little fact:

The loan packages NEVER LEAVE FM.

The instruments stay on deposit, as though it's a bank.

When FM sells the instruments to the market, they're selling right to own. The buyers in the market get certificates (actually, its all done electronically, on the books) and the buyers of the packages have the right to re-sell them, (or should i say, the title to them) or collect the revenue generated by the loan.

The loans, so toxic, were vended by the government.

If it was toxic, what was the government doing selling it?

If you, on your scale bought a Savings Bond, would you expect that investment to be safe?

The GOVERNMENT originated, brought to market, and sold the right to all the loans, each and every one of them, that was in the news.

The toxicity was so bad, they should have never been put on the market in the first place.

Wall st said, hey, its from the government…how can we go wrong? The .gov is backing this stuff! So, who cares how its sold?

You bring any bearer instrument back the .gov, you ought to be able to cash it on its stated terms. Period.

No longer, but used to be I thought everything you bought from the gov could be trusted.

No longer.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 20:52
It was republicans who led the charge for bailing out the wingtippers on wall street... right? And in trouble or not, the banks all got money... right? Right.

And well they ought to. The government marketed the crap to the banks, who believed the .gov was the gold standard and that they would back the securities.

Bailing out the banks for the bad investments and bill of goods sold to them by FM was the LEAST they could have done for them.

And who paid for the banks and their precious investors to be saved from their own failure... the taxpayer. Right? Right

Wrong. It was the government's failure, not the banks. The government covered its bad loans and bailed out the banks that the government originally screwed.

Its up to the people to hold the government responsible for allowing such s#$%tty lending standards.

certifiedfunds
05-14-2012, 21:01
So what? You sound as though you'd hang a banker in the public square, but when I redirect your anger at the proper source, i'm whining, and its, "so what?"

So, rage is against the private sector, no doubt envy driven, but the government, ah, who cares…lets get back to apathy.

Have I got that right?



Change the subject much? You need to quit while you're losing.



THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS OFFERING FOR SALE!

So, without avoiding the question, or changing the subject, why were the toxic loans

-even made?
-once made, having been loaned on government spec, what was the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT doing offering them to wall st to sell?

That's where the argument ends. Period.

Since I am technically proficient in how FM operates, know this little fact:

The loan packages NEVER LEAVE FM.

The instruments stay on deposit, as though it's a bank.

When FM sells the instruments to the market, they're selling right to own. The buyers in the market get certificates (actually, its all done electronically, on the books) and the buyers of the packages have the right to re-sell them, (or should i say, the title to them) or collect the revenue generated by the loan.

The loans, so toxic, were vended by the government.

If it was toxic, what was the government doing selling it?

If you, on your scale bought a Savings Bond, would you expect that investment to be safe?

The GOVERNMENT originated, brought to market, and sold the right to all the loans, each and every one of them, that was in the news.

The toxicity was so bad, they should have never been put on the market in the first place.

Wall st said, hey, its from the government…how can we go wrong? The .gov is backing this stuff! So, who cares how its sold?

You bring any bearer instrument back the .gov, you ought to be able to cash it on its stated terms. Period.

No longer, but used to be I thought everything you bought from the gov could be trusted.

No longer.

Its actually worse than that. The government via FF had no business in the mortgage business in the first place. Risk must be priced appropriately but the government disallowed that. **THIS** is the fundamental root cause.

However, the government, in its infinite incompetence, decided that home ownership was for everyone......even those who can't afford it. Banks wouldn't loan to people who can't pay so the government stepped in and reduced the risk AND forced them to loan.

certifiedfunds
05-14-2012, 21:02
One thing is certain in this thread. The mask has come off and the Marxist Revolutionary is in full view.

G29Reload
05-14-2012, 21:39
One thing is certain in this thread. The mask has come off and the Marxist Revolutionary is in full view.


I love rooting out the Fifth Column.

Brucev
05-15-2012, 05:51
[QUOTE=G29Reload;18967668]So what? You sound as though you'd hang a banker in the public square, but when I redirect your anger at the proper source, i'm whining, and its, "so what?" Hang? No. Just give them the same treatment normally accorded to any other criminal who knocks over a 7/11, etc. Give them state provided three hots and a cot with a nice boy friend. They'd come out changed men.

So, rage is against the private sector, no doubt envy driven, but the government, ah, who cares…lets get back to apathy. Your defense of the wingtippers is about as convincing as those who make excuses for the farm lobby... and the corporate farm interest that so love to sail under the "family farmer" flag.

Have I got that right? There is very little you ever get right.



Change the subject much? You need to quit while you're losing.

THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS OFFERING FOR SALE!

So, without avoiding the question, or changing the subject, why were the toxic loans

-even made?
-once made, having been loaned on government spec, what was the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT doing offering them to wall st to sell?

That's where the argument ends. Period.

Since I am technically proficient in how FM operates, know this little fact:

The loan packages NEVER LEAVE FM.

The instruments stay on deposit, as though it's a bank.

When FM sells the instruments to the market, they're selling right to own. The buyers in the market get certificates (actually, its all done electronically, on the books) and the buyers of the packages have the right to re-sell them, (or should i say, the title to them) or collect the revenue generated by the loan.

The loans, so toxic, were vended by the government.

If it was toxic, what was the government doing selling it?

If you, on your scale bought a Savings Bond, would you expect that investment to be safe?

The GOVERNMENT originated, brought to market, and sold the right to all the loans, each and every one of them, that was in the news.

The toxicity was so bad, they should have never been put on the market in the first place.

Wall st said, hey, its from the government…how can we go wrong? The .gov is backing this stuff! So, who cares how its sold?

You bring any bearer instrument back the .gov, you ought to be able to cash it on its stated terms. Period.

No longer, but used to be I thought everything you bought from the gov could be trusted.

No longer. So... the banksters offer derivitives based on the loans ... which they combine mixing the toxic with the less toxic with the actually good stuff. And the companies which are supposed to actually rate these instruments says they are all top quality. And the banks then proceed to play casino selling this junk to investors who don't know any better than to believe the rating applied. But of course the banksters don't end up taking a bath in the mess they've created. They leave it to the tax payer to deal with their dirty bath water. Because of course they own and operate the house and senate to take care of their interest. They get off Scot free... and even give each other bonuses for pulling off the crime of the century. And the tax payer is told he must pay for their crime. And conservatives and republicans want everyone to just go along with it? Got it. So what to do? What to do? Already have the answer... treat them like any other criminal who knocks over a 7/11... three hots and a cot in the state prison with a new boyfriend. That is at least a start.

pugman
05-15-2012, 06:22
Bull. Proof? Just consider the wingtippers of wall street. They use other people's money and other people's tax support to enrich themselves while destroying the housing industry, etc.

Wall Street definitely had a hand it in - but you make it sound as if all the home buyers lived in some sort of bubble? Proof.

Introduce Pugman's sister.

Her husband got a job in Moorhead, MN as a football coach. If you don't know where this is find Fargo, ND and go east across the river.

They bought a home.

She ignored my advice to buy a home in Fargo, ND. North Dakota is one of the strongest states in the union financially - MN regularly shuts the state down every summer. The distance from where she moved to the state border is 8 blocks

She ignored my advice moving there in the first place. Its Fargo/Moorhead. Leaving the city limits in either direction means 3 hours of nothing. You need to be a special person who wants to move there. Winters are brutal.

She ignored my advice buying a home in the first place. I love my sister and my BIL is a nice guy; but neither of them are what I consider to be handy. Knowing this, they bought a nearly 100 year old home.

Where are they at now? He took a new and better job in Missouri and are renting. To make a long story short, he needed to reinterview for his current position and would have gotten it but was "offended" he had to reinterview? Unless you are in a DIV 1 program, coaches are notoriously nomadic - a good friend of his has had 4 jobs in 5 years finally landing a job at a DIV 1 school in Michigan. The home has sat empty nearly a year...they haven't made a mortgage payment since last July

They 1) ignored my sound advice not to move to the area 2) they ignored my advice moving into the city 3) they ignored my advice buying a house 4) he choose not to reinterview for his position.

How again is this Wall Street's fault?

The worse thing about the housing problem: the true victims are us folks who have stayed in our homes and paid the mortgages. My home couldn't be sold to close what I paid for it 4 years ago considering all the foreclosures on the market.

certifiedfunds
05-15-2012, 06:48
[QUOTE=G29Reload;18967668]So what? You sound as though you'd hang a banker in the public square, but when I redirect your anger at the proper source, i'm whining, and its, "so what?" Hang? No. Just give them the same treatment normally accorded to any other criminal who knocks over a 7/11, etc. Give them state provided three hots and a cot with a nice boy friend. They'd come out changed men.

So, rage is against the private sector, no doubt envy driven, but the government, ah, who cares…lets get back to apathy. Your defense of the wingtippers is about as convincing as those who make excuses for the farm lobby... and the corporate farm interest that so love to sail under the "family farmer" flag.

Have I got that right? There is very little you ever get right.



Change the subject much? You need to quit while you're losing.

THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS OFFERING FOR SALE!

So, without avoiding the question, or changing the subject, why were the toxic loans

-even made?
-once made, having been loaned on government spec, what was the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT doing offering them to wall st to sell?

That's where the argument ends. Period.

Since I am technically proficient in how FM operates, know this little fact:

The loan packages NEVER LEAVE FM.

The instruments stay on deposit, as though it's a bank.

When FM sells the instruments to the market, they're selling right to own. The buyers in the market get certificates (actually, its all done electronically, on the books) and the buyers of the packages have the right to re-sell them, (or should i say, the title to them) or collect the revenue generated by the loan.

The loans, so toxic, were vended by the government.

If it was toxic, what was the government doing selling it?

If you, on your scale bought a Savings Bond, would you expect that investment to be safe?

The GOVERNMENT originated, brought to market, and sold the right to all the loans, each and every one of them, that was in the news.

The toxicity was so bad, they should have never been put on the market in the first place.

Wall st said, hey, its from the government…how can we go wrong? The .gov is backing this stuff! So, who cares how its sold?

You bring any bearer instrument back the .gov, you ought to be able to cash it on its stated terms. Period.

No longer, but used to be I thought everything you bought from the gov could be trusted.

No longer. So... the banksters offer derivitives based on the loans ... which they combine mixing the toxic with the less toxic with the actually good stuff. And the companies which are supposed to actually rate these instruments says they are all top quality. And the banks then proceed to play casino selling this junk to investors who don't know any better than to believe the rating applied. But of course the banksters don't end up taking a bath in the mess they've created. They leave it to the tax payer to deal with their dirty bath water. Because of course they own and operate the house and senate to take care of their interest. They get off Scot free... and even give each other bonuses for pulling off the crime of the century. And the tax payer is told he must pay for their crime. And conservatives and republicans want everyone to just go along with it? Got it. So what to do? What to do? Already have the answer... treat them like any other criminal who knocks over a 7/11... three hots and a cot in the state prison with a new boyfriend. That is at least a start.

Can anyone -- ANYONE -- make sense of this?

For the love of Jesus would you please learn to use the quote function when spreading leftist propaganda?

certifiedfunds
05-15-2012, 06:53
Brucev - this one goes out to you.......

Soviet National Anthem(With Lyrics) - YouTube

beforeobamabans
05-15-2012, 07:12
Funny thing how the "wall street wingtippers" are mostly Obama contributors.

Brucev
05-15-2012, 07:49
Brucev - this one goes out to you.......

Soviet National Anthem(With Lyrics) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yDrtNEr_5M)

Odd. Never cared for such stuff. Why do you?

Brucev
05-15-2012, 07:50
[quote=Brucev;18968562]

Can anyone -- ANYONE -- make sense of this?

For the love of Jesus would you please learn to use the quote function when spreading leftist propaganda?

It would appear you got the message. Good.

Brucev
05-15-2012, 07:54
[QUOTE=pugman;18968642]Wall Street definitely had a hand it in - but you make it sound as if all the home buyers lived in some sort of bubble? Proof.

Introduce Pugman's sister.

Her husband got a job in Moorhead, MN as a football coach. If you don't know where this is find Fargo, ND and go east across the river.

They bought a home.

She ignored my advice to buy a home in Fargo, ND. North Dakota is one of the strongest states in the union financially - MN regularly shuts the state down every summer. The distance from where she moved to the state border is 8 blocks

She ignored my advice moving there in the first place. Its Fargo/Moorhead. Leaving the city limits in either direction means 3 hours of nothing. You need to be a special person who wants to move there. Winters are brutal.

She ignored my advice buying a home in the first place. I love my sister and my BIL is a nice guy; but neither of them are what I consider to be handy. Knowing this, they bought a nearly 100 year old home.

Where are they at now? He took a new and better job in Missouri and are renting. To make a long story short, he needed to reinterview for his current position and would have gotten it but was "offended" he had to reinterview? Unless you are in a DIV 1 program, coaches are notoriously nomadic - a good friend of his has had 4 jobs in 5 years finally landing a job at a DIV 1 school in Michigan. The home has sat empty nearly a year...they haven't made a mortgage payment since last July

They 1) ignored my sound advice not to move to the area 2) they ignored my advice moving into the city 3) they ignored my advice buying a house 4) he choose not to reinterview for his position. Anecdotal stories are not evidence of anything except ones own personal experience.

How again is this Wall Street's fault? Was her loan part of the repackaged toxic soup served up by the wall street wingtippers ... with the tax payer being expected to pay the bill for the damage done to our nations' financial health?

The worse thing about the housing problem: the true victims are us folks who have stayed in our homes and paid the mortgages. My home couldn't be sold to close what I paid for it 4 years ago considering all the foreclosures on the market. You are not alone. There are many millions of U.S. homeowners who are just like you, underwater.

Brucev
05-15-2012, 07:56
Funny thing how the "wall street wingtippers" are mostly Obama contributors.

Really? Experience demonstrates that the wingtippers don't care what might be the party nameplate of the candidate. They play both sides of the aisle. Why? Because its all about the money. Love of country, etc., is irrelevant. It simply doesn't matter.

aircarver
05-15-2012, 08:14
.....For the love of Jesus would you please learn to use the quote function when spreading leftist propaganda?

.... or preferably the 'delete' button .......:whistling:

.

G29Reload
05-15-2012, 10:37
It would appear you got the message. Good.



We all have.

That you're part of the leftist fifth column;

You're intellectually dishonest,

That you have a double standard for how people should be treated, if they're in the private sector they're criminals, even if it was the government that fenced the goods.

That you'll make endless excuses for the real guilty party, and desire to imprison the actual victims,

That with regard to high finance, you're functionally illiterate and have not a clue about how things actually work any more than you know how to use the quote button, and that you're possibly drunk by the erratic responses and general incoherence.

We get it, you're here to troll.

Skyhook
05-15-2012, 12:29
We all have.

That you're part of the leftist fifth column;

You're intellectually dishonest,

That you have a double standard for how people should be treated, if they're in the private sector they're criminals, even if it was the government that fenced the goods.

That you'll make endless excuses for the real guilty party, and desire to imprison the actual victims,

That with regard to high finance, you're functionally illiterate and have not a clue about how things actually work any more than you know how to use the quote button, and that you're possibly drunk by the erratic responses and general incoherence.

We get it, you're here to troll.

A thing of beauty, that. :cool:

The whiny post previously stated something which rankled me; and I am imperturbable:
"...the true victims are us folks who have stayed in our homes and paid the mortgages. My home couldn't be sold to close what I paid for it 4 years ago considering all the foreclosures on the market."

Imagine.. staying in one home for four years! Imagine being a jr. speculator of the homes market and getting hit up the bung with a 'bubble burst'. Oh, the humanity!

certifiedfunds
05-15-2012, 16:35
A thing of beauty, that. :cool:

The whiny post previously stated something which rankled me; and I am imperturbable:
"...the true victims are us folks who have stayed in our homes and paid the mortgages. My home couldn't be sold to close what I paid for it 4 years ago considering all the foreclosures on the market."

Imagine.. staying in one home for four years! Imagine being a jr. speculator of the homes market and getting hit up the bung with a 'bubble burst'. Oh, the humanity!

Yup. Sounds like somebody was clueless.