What religious reality is real? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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427
05-15-2012, 12:42
Do the beliefs of others apply to others who don't share the same belief? If the beliefs of the believers apply to the non-believers, how do they know?
The strange thing is that most of the consequences for non-believers is that it happens after death. How do the believers know that, in fact, happens?

Let me give some examples.

If I have a religious belief and believe that it applies to others, but others reject it, would my belief apply to them?

If one doesn't believe/do ____X____, then ____Y____ will happen.

If I don't believe in a certain deity I will be judged then condemned to an unpleasant fate. How would anyone know?

Some have the belief of purgatory - others reject it the premise. Does the what the believers believe apply to the non believers? How do/would they know?

Some have the belief of hell. Others reject the premise. Does the belief of hell apply to the non believers? How do/would they really know?

Some religions believe in judgement day, others do not. Does judgement day apply to the non-believers? How do/would the believers really know?

I have a religious friend who believes that Kachina* dolls, common in the SW at tourist traps, contain spirits and says they are evil - possessing them endangers my spiritual well being. I see them as nothing more than carved painted wood. Does his beliefs apply to me?


These are just examples.

Just curious.

*Brief history for those who aren't familiar with Kachina dolls.
http://www.sakhomenewa.com/History/brief.html

eracer
05-15-2012, 12:48
To paraphrase a quotation:

"There are literally hundreds of different Christian churches, each with differing views of the faith. According to at least one of those faiths you're going to hell."

Lone Wolf8634
05-15-2012, 12:52
There are thousands of belief systems out there. I find it hard to fathom how they could all apply.

void *
05-15-2012, 12:57
There's a guy who I used to work with who espoused the idea that whatever people actually believed was true for them.

I asked him what would happen if someone believed they could fly and jumped off a building. His response was that they would actually fly as long as they actually believed.

I then asked him what would happen if someone who truly believed they could fly jumped off a building, whilst being observed by someone who actually believed nobody could fly. His response was sort of a split universe thing where the person who believed he could fly would fly and the person who didn't believe people could fly would see the "flying person" fall to his death. This answer wasn't really satisfactory to me.

427
05-15-2012, 13:17
It's interesting that the religious people on this forum, tell atheists/agnostics that if they don't have the same religious beliefs god will judge and condemn them. How do the believers know that their beliefs will apply to all others who don't share them? It doesn't make sense to me.

Lone Wolf8634
05-15-2012, 13:25
It's interesting that the religious people on this forum, tell atheists/agnostics that if they don't have the same religious beliefs god will judge and condemn them. How do the believers know that their beliefs will apply to all others who don't share them? It doesn't make sense to me.

And if their belief apply to us, than it stands to reason that other beliefs apply to them.

Kind of a crapshoot if you ask me.....:whistling:

Whats that quote? "We're all Atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do".......

eracer
05-15-2012, 13:44
There's a guy who I used to work with who espoused the idea that whatever people actually believed was true for them.

I asked him what would happen if someone believed they could fly and jumped off a building. His response was that they would actually fly as long as they actually believed.

I then asked him what would happen if someone who truly believed they could fly jumped off a building, whilst being observed by someone who actually believed nobody could fly. His response was sort of a split universe thing where the person who believed he could fly would fly and the person who didn't believe people could fly would see the "flying person" fall to his death. This answer wasn't really satisfactory to me.'Quantum Physics and the Multiverse.'

As told by Jonathon Livingston Seagull.

Alizard
05-15-2012, 13:50
Do the beliefs of others apply to others who don't share the same belief? If the beliefs of the believers apply to the non-believers, how do they know?
The strange thing is that most of the consequences for non-believers is that it happens after death. How do the believers know that, in fact, happens?

Let me give some examples.

If I have a religious belief and believe that it applies to others, but others reject it, would my belief apply to them?

If one doesn't believe/do ____X____, then ____Y____ will happen.

If I don't believe in a certain deity I will be judged then condemned to an unpleasant fate. How would anyone know?

Some have the belief of purgatory - others reject it the premise. Does the what the believers believe apply to the non believers? How do/would they know?

Some have the belief of hell. Others reject the premise. Does the belief of hell apply to the non believers? How do/would they really know?

Some religions believe in judgement day, others do not. Does judgement day apply to the non-believers? How do/would the believers really know?

I have a religious friend who believes that Kachina* dolls, common in the SW at tourist traps, contain spirits and says they are evil - possessing them endangers my spiritual well being. I see them as nothing more than carved painted wood. Does his beliefs apply to me?


These are just examples.

Just curious.

*Brief history for those who aren't familiar with Kachina dolls.
http://www.sakhomenewa.com/History/brief.html

The question ignores the obvious: there is only one reality and it applies to all. True Christianity believes that when Christ returns, there will be a thousand year period where He and his followers preach to those who never had the chance to hear it or even to those who rejected it. They get a second chance after death. If they still reject God, they will be blotted out on the day of final judgement.

God is more than fair.

Gunhaver
05-15-2012, 15:59
The question ignores the obvious: there is only one reality and it applies to all. True Christianity believes that when Christ returns, there will be a thousand year period where He and his followers preach to those who never had the chance to hear it or even to those who rejected it. They get a second chance after death. If they still reject God, they will be blotted out on the day of final judgement.

God is more than fair.

So what you're saying is that being an atheist doesn't matter because when I die Christ will reveal himself to me and I'll finally have that pesky evidence I'm always expecting before I make a decision?

Well I'm cool with that. Seems like a pretty logical and fair way to operate but it sure does blow away that Pascals wager thing you guys are always trying to scare us with.

427
05-15-2012, 16:49
The question ignores the obvious: there is only one reality and it applies to all. True Christianity believes that when Christ returns, there will be a thousand year period where He and his followers preach to those who never had the chance to hear it or even to those who rejected it. They get a second chance after death. If they still reject God, they will be blotted out on the day of final judgement.

God is more than fair.

You may believe that, and that's cool. But how does that belief apply to others who don't share that belief such as hindus, and buddhists, for example.

Is what you're saying that "true" Christians are right and every other non Christian or not the right kind of Christian is wrong? If so, how do you know this for a fact?

Alizard
05-15-2012, 16:53
So what you're saying is that being an atheist doesn't matter because when I die Christ will reveal himself to me and I'll finally have that pesky evidence I'm always expecting before I make a decision?

Well I'm cool with that. Seems like a pretty logical and fair way to operate but it sure does blow away that Pascals wager thing you guys are always trying to scare us with.I am saying that my beliefs are that all people will (after death) get another chance to believe in God. Many will, but many will choose to follow satan (he's a good liar)

Alizard
05-15-2012, 16:54
You may believe that, and that's cool. But how does that belief apply to others who don't share that belief such as hindus, and buddhists, for example.

Is what you're saying that "true" Christians are right and every other non Christian or not the right kind of Christian is wrong? If so, how do you know this for a fact?

No, what I am saying is that there is only one reality: believing differently doesn't change it. I have beliefs, others have theirs. We will all find out in the end which ones are reality.

Beliefs can not be proven "as facts" since you have to die to know for sure.

Alizard
05-15-2012, 16:56
Is what you're saying that "true" Christians are right I only use the phrase "true Christians" to designate people who follow Christ's actual teachings, as opposed to the many legions of churches and preachers who claim to be Christians but are selling false doctrines of men.

427
05-15-2012, 17:06
I am saying that my beliefs are that all people will (after death) get another chance to believe in God. Many will, but many will choose to follow satan (he's a good liar)
What if a person rejects the premise of both satan and god? What's their fate?

No, what I am saying is that there is only one reality: believing differently doesn't change it. I have beliefs, others have theirs. We will all find out in the end which ones are reality.

Beliefs can not be proven "as facts" since you have to die to know for sure.

If I'm not christian, how does that "one reality" you believe apply to me? Wouldn't my religious beliefs only apply to me?

427
05-15-2012, 17:09
I only use the phrase "true Christians" to designate people who follow Christ's actual teachings, as opposed to the many legions of churches and preachers who claim to be Christians but are selling false doctrines of men.
What are false doctrines to you are beliefs for others and what are beliefs for you are false doctrines for others. See how that works? Who is more righter?

Alizard
05-15-2012, 17:16
What if a person rejects the premise of both satan and god? What's their fate? To meet both.



If I'm not christian, how does that "one reality" you believe apply to me? Wouldn't my religious beliefs only apply to me?Reality applies to everyone. It is what it is. We will all find out.

Claiming that you do not believe in something will not change reality.

Alizard
05-15-2012, 17:18
What are false doctrines to you are beliefs for others and what are beliefs for you are false doctrines for others. See how that works? Who is more righter?
Whatever. Believe what you want.

427
05-15-2012, 17:28
To meet both.

Reality applies to everyone. It is what it is. We will all find out.

Claiming that you do not believe in something will not change reality.

If I don't believe in unicorns, santa clause, the tooth fairy, easter bunny, or any/all dieties. What's real to you may not be real to someone else. There is no "one" reality.

Whatever. Believe what you want.
:whistling:

Alizard
05-15-2012, 17:32
If I don't believe in unicorns, santa clause, the tooth fairy, easter bunny, or any/all dieties. What's real to you may not be real to someone else. There is no "one" reality.That statement is a non-sequitur of galactic proportions. You may dispute what reality is, you can not dispute that there IS a reality.

reality (n) (http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+reality&qpvt=definition+of+reality&FORM=DTPDIA)

<cite>bing.com</cite>
re·al·i·ty
[ ree állətee ]



real existence: actual being or existence, as opposed to an imaginary, idealized, or false nature
all that exists or happens: everything that actually does or could exist or happen in real life

Syclone538
05-15-2012, 17:42
I would think most believers, believe their beliefs apply to everyone. Or at least everyone that has ever heard of their specific belief. For example, I don't think that many believers believe that infants that die are doomed because they didn't believe in the "correct" religion.

How do they know? They don't.

427
05-15-2012, 17:46
That statement is a non-sequitur of galactic proportions. You may dispute what reality is, you can not dispute that there IS a reality.

Even by your own admission, there's no "one reality" when it comes to religious beliefs.
What I'm saying is that your religious reality, may not be my or anybody else's religious reality. How can your religious reality apply to a non-believer? How?

Gunhaver
05-15-2012, 18:10
I am saying that my beliefs are that all people will (after death) get another chance to believe in God. Many will, but many will choose to follow satan (he's a good liar)

I don't see how the devil could lie someone away from Jesus when they have the Man himself standing right there asking if they believe.

"Come to the dark side, we have cookies"?

juggy4711
05-15-2012, 19:01
'Quantum Physics and the Multiverse.'

As told by Jonathon Livingston Seagull.

Unless QM has radically different properties in other parts of the Multiverse than it does in ours, the probability that humans can fly just because they believe they can still ends with a nasty splat.

...How do the believers know that, in fact, happens?...

They don't know. They believe.

void *
05-15-2012, 19:13
I don't see how the devil could lie someone away from Jesus when they have the Man himself standing right there asking if they believe.

"Come to the dark side, we have cookies"?

No, no, no, you just ask one of them "What would the other guy answer if I asked him whether or not you lie or tell the truth?". If he says "Lie", you know it's the Man, if he says "Truth", you know it's the devil.

Alizard
05-15-2012, 20:50
Even by your own admission, there's no "one reality" when it comes to religious beliefs.
No, I never said that. There is, by definition, ONE REALITY. Beliefs are not reality, they are opinions.


What I'm saying is that your religious reality, may not be my or anybody else's religious reality. Read the definition of "reality". You are using the word incorrectly.


Let me explain with a parable (about religion):

Three blind men walk up to an elephant.... one grabs his trunk and proclaims:

"An elephant is like a fire hose!"

The second man grabs his leg and proclaims:

"An elephant is like a tree trunk!"

The third man grabs his tail and proclaims:

"An elephant is like a garden hose!"

Of course they all think thier "belief" is true and correct... so they start a holy war and kill each other.

But an elephant is an elephant, and reality exists outside of and independent of anybody's belief, opinion, or perception. Reality is what it is.

Alizard
05-15-2012, 20:52
I don't see how the devil could lie someone away from Jesus when they have the Man himself standing right there asking if they believe.


He will be claiming that he is going to "win" in the final conflict and set up his own kingdom. many will follow him.

Alizard
05-15-2012, 20:54
I would think most believers, believe their beliefs apply to everyone. Or at least everyone that has ever heard of their specific belief.
They believe their beliefs are true, so then that means they have to apply to everyone. You can't wish away reality by declining to believe in it.

427
05-15-2012, 21:36
No, I never said that. There is, by definition, ONE REALITY. Beliefs are not reality, they are opinions.

So is this real or just your opinion?

The question ignores the obvious: there is only one reality and it applies to all. True Christianity believes that when Christ returns, there will be a thousand year period where He and his followers preach to those who never had the chance to hear it or even to those who rejected it. They get a second chance after death. If they still reject God, they will be blotted out on the day of final judgement.

God is more than fair.
Read the definition of "reality". You are using the word incorrectly.

Here's your definition of reality:

1. real existence: actual being or existence, as opposed to an imaginary, idealized, or false nature
all that exists or happens:

2. everything that actually does or could exist or happen in real lifeThere are people who argue that dieties aren't real. Because you believe in a diety and what you think/believe will happen to non believers, how does that apply to others who don't share the belief?

Just because you believe in a god doesn't make it real.

Let me explain with a parable (about religion):

Three blind men walk up to an elephant.... one grabs his trunk and proclaims:

"An elephant is like a fire hose!"

The second man grabs his leg and proclaims:

"An elephant is like a tree trunk!"

The third man grabs his tail and proclaims:

"An elephant is like a garden hose!"

Of course they all think thier "belief" is true and correct...
Like you, right?


so they start a holy war and kill each other.But an elephant is an elephant, and reality exists outside of and independent of anybody's belief, opinion, or perception. Reality is what it is.

So what's real? What can be confirmed to exist, God or the elephant? God(s) and and what happens in the after life are just speculation - there is no way to confirm that either exist.

Religious beliefs are real to those that believe them, whatever they are. To non believers, the beliefs are nonsense.

Again, how do religious beliefs apply to non believers?

juggy4711
05-15-2012, 22:50
...Reality is what it is.

...You can't wish away reality by declining to believe in it.

You got that right. I don't think however you truly appreciate the fundamental nature of reality. The true nature of reality is perhaps one of the least intuitively believable things I have ever studied. Forget one reality. Reality at all is whack. That we are, in fact everything is, primarily made of empty space as we would commonly perceive boggles the mind. Yet were it not true there would be no internet to share such ideas. Bizarre doesn't even come close.

Rally Vincent
05-15-2012, 23:11
Well, real being as "real" to me....
Which ever one I decide to choose.

Tilley
05-16-2012, 13:52
I am saying that my beliefs are that all people will (after death) get another chance to believe in God. Many will, but many will choose to follow satan (he's a good liar)

This I think is more of a desire on your part. The Bible is pretty clear on this subject.

All people will believe in God when they die.

Those that accepted Christ will live with Christ.

Those that rejected Christ will remain apart from Christ forever.