Christians torture boy, force him to dig his own grave [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Christians torture boy, force him to dig his own grave


Animal Mother
05-18-2012, 21:47
http://www.swrnn.com/2012/04/04/trio-accused-of-torturing-boy-charged-with-multiple-felonies/


Bad Christians, bad.

Paul7
05-18-2012, 21:57
delete

Paul7
05-18-2012, 21:59
http://www.swrnn.com/2012/04/04/trio-accused-of-torturing-boy-charged-with-multiple-felonies/


Bad Christians, bad.

Pretty much your raison d'ętre here, isn't it?

A thousand times more Muslim stories like this and you find this. That says a lot.

What teaching of Jesus were they following?

Animal Mother
05-18-2012, 22:30
Pretty much your raison d'ętre here, isn't it? What is that exactly?
A thousand times more Muslim stories like this and you find this. That says a lot. Only the actions by those you dislike should be discussed?
What teaching of Jesus were they following?You'd have to ask the pastor I suppose, though he doesn't seem to be granting interviews.

snowbird
05-19-2012, 12:53
The article said the subject did not require hospitalization, but, okay, so you've managed to find ONE (non-fatal) terrorist act by bad Christians.

Now you just have to find 18,907 more and Christianity and Islam will be at numerical (but not fatality) parity regarding terrorist attacks since 9/11. But you'd better hurry...Islam, unlike Christianity, keeps adding to its total daily. That's because Islam endorses terrorism, while Christianity does not. But you knew that.

Kingarthurhk
05-19-2012, 13:42
What is that exactly?
Only the actions by those you dislike should be discussed?
You'd have to ask the pastor I suppose, though he doesn't seem to be granting interviews.

So, you are alleging that Christ taught people to do this sort of thing. Please point out anything that Jesus said that would advocate this.

:upeyes:

Alizard
05-19-2012, 14:40
What teaching of Jesus were they following?That is the crime of this generation: the millions who claim to be christians yet have no clue what Christ's teachings are or what his commandments were on how we are to act.

Christ warned us not to be deceived because "many will come in My name". But they are just liars teaching their own doctrines.

juggy4711
05-19-2012, 20:03
That is the crime of this generation: the millions who claim to be christians yet have no clue what Christ's teachings are or what his commandments were on how we are to act.

Christ warned us not to be deceived because "many will come in My name". But they are just liars teaching their own doctrines.

Hardly matters. The problem is that they take their religion so seriously that they would use such tactics on anyone in order to persuade/encourage them act as they believe their religion requires. It a legitimate example of the inherit danger of any moral doctrine one believes is delivered from a infallible supernatural being or force.

countrygun
05-19-2012, 21:17
It a legitimate example of the inherit danger of any moral doctrine one believes is delivered from a infallible supernatural being or force.


Would you like to discuss the dangers of having no moral doctrine?

Would you like to point out a consistant, codified moral doctrine that the large majority of those, who don't believe in you know they do.supreme being, adhere to. When did they ratify this code and where is it written down?

I ask this as an atheist who is bloody well tired of hearing other atheists shift their moral compass when ever it suits them and yet crow about their superiority to the Christians I know. Frankly I don't see it. In as much as religion has provided a basis for legal and moral codes in societies,I would like to know what consistent principles are going to replace religion and exactly how is that going to be ingrained in the populace in a consistent manner?

Animal Mother
05-19-2012, 21:17
So, you are alleging that Christ taught people to do this sort of thing. I am? Where did I say that?

Alizard
05-19-2012, 21:28
Hardly matters. Of course it matters. You can't see it because you think everybody who believes in Christ is a religious lunatic.

The problem is that they take their religion so seriously that they would use such tactics on anyone in order to persuade/encourage them act as they believe their religion requires.The problem is they think they are empowered to "judge others" and enforce their beliefs on them.... which is eaxctly the OPPOSITE of what Christ taught. Don't call these nuts christians because it just shows abject ignorance.

It (sic) a legitimate example of the inherit (sic) danger of any moral doctrine one believes is delivered from a infallible supernatural being or force.

Whatever.

Blast
05-19-2012, 22:26
This is just another example of the disturbed mental and emotional state of most of the atheists in this forum.
The EVIDENCE is clear.:rofl:

Must be a very sad and boring life to have to go into a forum and spew hate day after day. The desperation continues.:upeyes:

And once again, there is absolutely nothing you atheists can do to change people's beliefs.
When does the violence start, atheists? When will you start beating up Christians and Jews? When will the burning of churches and synagogues begin? I ask because that is your only recourse and is in line with the hateful attitude you seem to enjoy. Even then you will fail. As you always do.

On the other hand, seeing shallow minded fools squirm is rather funny.:rofl:

Kingarthurhk
05-19-2012, 22:38
I am? Where did I say that?


Bad Christians, bad.

You are implying Christians are bad. If Christians are actually followers of Christ, as they should be, you are inferring that Jesus taught them to do these things are you not? And if you are inferring such a thing, I would like to know where you think Jesus taught such a thing.

Animal Mother
05-19-2012, 23:23
You are implying Christians are bad. No, I'm outright stating that these Christians are bad. Do you disagree?
If Christians are actually followers of Christ, as they should be, you are inferring that Jesus taught them to do these things are you not? I don't infer, you infer.
And if you are inferring such a thing, I would like to know where you think Jesus taught such a thing.And I'll repeat, you'll have to ask the pastor, though he doesn't seem to be giving interviews.

juggy4711
05-19-2012, 23:43
Would you like to discuss the dangers of having no moral doctrine?

Would you like to point out a consistant, codified moral doctrine that the large majority of those, who don't believe in you know they do.supreme being, adhere to. When did they ratify this code and where is it written down?

I ask this as an atheist who is bloody well tired of hearing other atheists shift their moral compass when ever it suits them and yet crow about their superiority to the Christians I know. Frankly I don't see it. In as much as religion has provided a basis for legal and moral codes in societies,I would like to know what consistent principles are going to replace religion and exactly how is that going to be ingrained in the populace in a consistent manner?

Sure. Would you like to discuss the fact the belief in religion is not necessary for one to have a moral doctrine? Your second paragraph is unintelligible so I'm not sure how to respond to that.

If your coming from where I think you area I would respond as Aristotle did. "I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law"

I do not need law God's or Man's to tell me what is right. I do what I think is right because I think it is right.

As far as a replacement for religion regarding consistent morality, the fact that religion is so needed I see as a negative. That something such as religion may be needed to do so says a lot about human nature.

As far as how we might ingrain those principles into people consistently, I guess it will only be with the threat of punishment of some kind. God forbid we do something because we think it is the right thing to do.

juggy4711
05-19-2012, 23:56
Of course it matters. You can't see it because you think everybody who believes in Christ is a religious lunatic.

The problem is they think they are empowered to "judge others" and enforce their beliefs on them.... which is eaxctly the OPPOSITE of what Christ taught. Don't call these nuts christians because it just shows abject ignorance.

Whatever.

I'm sure you would give the same deference to believers of Mohamed.

And for the record I think anyone that believes in any religion is a religious lunatic.

The problem is you think you are empowered to judge. Muslims claim the same. Don't call Islamic terrorists Muslims because it just shows abject ignorance.

Yeah whatever.

Kingarthurhk
05-20-2012, 00:42
No, I'm outright stating that these Christians are bad. Do you disagree?
I don't infer, you infer.
And I'll repeat, you'll have to ask the pastor, though he doesn't seem to be giving interviews.

These people aren't followers of Christ if they think their actions were acceptable. Further, I am not asking a random paster, I am asking you.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 01:54
Sure. Would you like to discuss the fact the belief in religion is not necessary for one to have a moral doctrine? Your second paragraph is unintelligible so I'm not sure how to respond to that.

I will type slowly for you.
A society needs a common set of moral values, it is what we base both our laws and our behaviors on. Where is there a written set of "Atheist values" that will replace the Christian morals in our society?

If your coming from where I think you area I would respond as Aristotle did. "I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law"

You have a great opinion of yourself but unfortunately, and I will give you the benefit of the doubt, there are others that need guidance.

I do not need law God's or Man's to tell me what is right. I do what I think is right because I think it is right

That is what I am afraid of. an entire society of people doing whatever they think is right with no common foundation.

As far as a replacement for religion regarding consistent morality, the fact that religion is so needed I see as a negative. That something such as religion may be needed to do so says a lot about human nature.

Yes it does and maybe that should tell you that your argument is with the reality of human nature, not with that which it needs to improve and restrain itself.

As far as how we might ingrain those principles into people consistently, I guess it will only be with the threat of punishment of some kind. God forbid we do something because we think it is the right thing to do.

But how do we agree on those principles since the ones we have come from a common religion?



.


I hear many people who use Islamic fanaticism, sucide bombings, honor killings and such, to show the dangers of religion. Why? how do we know that those things are wrong? (assuming you do) You "Believe" they are wrong because you were raised in a Christian society that told you things like that were wrong. If you had been raised in a fundamentalist Muslim society you wouldn't think so. Unless you want to try and claim that you, and we, are somehow genetically superior, the only real conclusion is "there, but for the grace of God, go I ".

Again. I say this as an atheist who has strong respect for the Christian heritage and all it has given us, but not a person with a belief in the story of creation or in the certain knowledge of heaven. I am tired of what I see has a bunch of full grown juveniles rebelling against the ways of their parents and unwilling to admit that their parents ways kept them in shelter, warmth and food. Fine to go out in the world on your own path but remember to be grateful to what as brought you to the point of decision.

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 02:05
These people aren't followers of Christ if they think their actions were acceptable. No True Scotsman rides again!!
Further, I am not asking a random paster, I am asking you. I neither committed the acts nor am I attempting to justify them. I'm the wrong person to ask.

Kingarthurhk
05-20-2012, 08:52
No True Scotsman rides again!!
I neither committed the acts nor am I attempting to justify them. I'm the wrong person to ask.

Obviously you presented the threat with an agenda in mind. What is your particular agenda? You are the right person to ask since the OP is yours.

Paul7
05-20-2012, 08:53
This is just another example of the disturbed mental and emotional state of most of the atheists in this forum.
The EVIDENCE is clear.:rofl:

Must be a very sad and boring life to have to go into a forum and spew hate day after day. The desperation continues.:upeyes:

And once again, there is absolutely nothing you atheists can do to change people's beliefs.
When does the violence start, atheists? When will you start beating up Christians and Jews? When will the burning of churches and synagogues begin? I ask because that is your only recourse and is in line with the hateful attitude you seem to enjoy. Even then you will fail. As you always do.

On the other hand, seeing shallow minded fools squirm is rather funny.:rofl:

Well said. I just had an atheist on another religion form tell me that removing religion from the public square was one of the greatest accomplishments of the USSR. Scary, isn't it? And they pretend it's about tolerance.

Paul7
05-20-2012, 08:54
No True Scotsman rides again!!


Not this again. Is it possible for one to claim to be a Christian (or Democrat, or American, or American Indian, etc.) and not really be one?

The funny thing is your side regularly say Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. weren't really atheists.

whmaxwell
05-20-2012, 09:13
Is this the trolling forum? OP seems to think so! :)

ksg0245
05-20-2012, 09:29
Not this again. Is it possible for one to claim to be a Christian (or Democrat, or American, or American Indian, etc.) and not really be one?

Sure. Is it possible for "true Christians" to be motivated by their religion to do bad things?

The funny thing is your side regularly say Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. weren't really atheists.

No, "our side" regularly say atheism wasn't the motivation for their crimes.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 10:13
Sure. Is it possible for "true Christians" to be motivated by their religion to do bad things?



No, "our side" regularly say atheism wasn't the motivation for their crimes.


David Berkowitz, the .44 killer "Son of Sam" in NYC said he received commands to kill from his dog. Does that mean that dog owners are responsible for his crimes, or that dogs cause crime?

kirgi08
05-20-2012, 10:19
tagged.

snowbird
05-20-2012, 10:27
No, "our side" regularly say atheism wasn't the motivation for their crimes.

And yet far more people were killed in the name of false diety such as 'Scientific Socialism' in the 20th century, than were killed in the name of the God of Abraham between the conversion of Constantine and today.:upeyes:

The OP suggests that he wasn't attacking Christianity (and thereby supporting Islam -the enemy of my enemy is my friend, etc), yet he only utters "Bad Christian", while Muslims in Pakistan, Egypt, etc are kidnapping, raping, converting then forcing marriage with the rapist on numerous young Christian (and Hindu, Buddhist, etc) girls, typically aged between 10 and 15. This atrocious behavior is allowed, even ordered, in Islam. Jesus, OTOH, said about he who harms any of these little ones, it would be better if a millstone were tied around his neck and he were cast into the sea. A line in a hymn at church today reminded me of this thread's OP, "Jesus saves, while Hell raves".

Incidently, the OP missed his chance to try to find 18,907 other Christian acts of terror to prove parity with Islam, because now, today, that total of Islamic terror attacks has climbed to 18,915, while Christianity's total remains stuck at 1. Darned luck! It's like trying to run to the horizon -it keeps receding on you.

P.S. Thanks from this Christian to Countrygun for his attempts to be reasonable with "full-grown juveniles" who seem to be rebelling against the faith of our fathers.

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 17:13
Obviously you presented the threat with an agenda in mind. What is your particular agenda? You are the right person to ask since the OP is yours. I was simply attempting to balance out the impression some here attempt to convey that Christians are exempt from doing wrong in the name of their religon.

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 17:15
Not this again. Is it possible for one to claim to be a Christian (or Democrat, or American, or American Indian, etc.) and not really be one? Sure, and it's also possible to do the same with Islam. Why are you so quick to reach this conclusion in one case and not the other?
The funny thing is your side regularly say Stalin, Pol Pot, etc. weren't really atheists.Who says this? On the other hand many say, correctly, that their actions were not in pursuit of atheism as a philosophy or belief system.

Paul7
05-20-2012, 17:47
I was simply attempting to balance out the impression some here attempt to convey that Christians are exempt from doing wrong in the name of their religon.

Who has said that?

Paul7
05-20-2012, 17:49
Sure, and it's also possible to do the same with Islam. Why are you so quick to reach this conclusion in one case and not the other?


Because the 'prophet' by word and deed advocated violence, pedophilia, etc., Jesus harmed nobody. Probably why Christians almost never do such crimes.

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 17:49
Who has said that?you, for one, starting with post 3 of this thread.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 17:54
you, for one, starting with post 3 of this thread.


I'll call you on that.


"Pretty much your raison d'ętre here, isn't it?

A thousand times more Muslim stories like this and you find this. That says a lot.

What teaching of Jesus were they following? "




I don't see what you are claiming in there.

Kingarthurhk
05-20-2012, 18:28
I was simply attempting to balance out the impression some here attempt to convey that Christians are exempt from doing wrong in the name of their religon.

Well, on that we can agree. People claiming to be Christians have done horrible things in the name of religion. The Crusades,Inquisition, and Malleus Maleficarum come readily to mind.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 18:34
Well, on that we can agree. People claiming to be Christians have done horrible things in the name of religion. The Crusades,Inquisition, and Malleus Maleficarum come readily to mind.

I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the Crusades in toto until I knew a little about the Islamic invasion of Europe.

DonGlock26
05-20-2012, 19:03
http://www.swrnn.com/2012/04/04/trio-accused-of-torturing-boy-charged-with-multiple-felonies/


Bad Christians, bad.

Oh, I thought it was going to be a Muslim-style acid in the face trick.

They were idiots and deserved to be punished, but they are hardly up to Islamic standards of brutality.


_

creaky
05-20-2012, 19:03
I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the Crusades in toto until I knew a little about the Islamic invasion of Europe.

You have to understand, KA's hatred of Catholics will trump any sort of reason you can offer.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 21:27
I'll call you on that.


"Pretty much your raison d'ętre here, isn't it?

A thousand times more Muslim stories like this and you find this. That says a lot.

What teaching of Jesus were they following? "




I don't see what you are claiming in there.The last line carries the implication that if these acts can't be found in the teaching of Jesus, and only in the teaching of Jesus, no one who does these kinds of things is a "real" Christian. Perhaps I misunderstood Paul7's intent and he's no longer making that argument after all these years.

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 21:30
I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the Crusades in toto until I knew a little about the Islamic invasion of Europe.Another example of "Christians did it, so it must be justified".

countrygun
05-20-2012, 21:46
The last line carries the implication that if these acts can't be found in the teaching of Jesus, and only in the teaching of Jesus, no one who does these kinds of things is a "real" Christian. Perhaps I misunderstood Paul7's intent and he's no longer making that argument after all these years.


Well if you guys have been going at it for years, far be it from me to spoil the fun.

As an observer I cannot find the part of the sentence "and only in the teachings of Jesus" that you were able to find. That's a heck of a set of eyes you have.

But, just for kicks, could you inform an ignoran,t and unschooled in such matters, fella like me where those people were following the teachings of Jesus?

By the way to reprise and rephrase a question I asked earlier, the "Son of Sam" killer claimed his dog told him to kill people. Does this mean that all of the members of the AKC made excuses for him, or are guilty themselves of being killers at the commands of their dogs?

I have yet to see anyone here excusing the actions of the people in the news report that opened this thread. Is this, again, something only you can see?

Kingarthurhk
05-20-2012, 21:59
I wouldn't be so quick to condemn the Crusades in toto until I knew a little about the Islamic invasion of Europe.

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/children.html

Ah, yes, the Children's Crusade of 1212. Sending thousands of children to their deaths, that showed the Moore's what for.:upeyes:

Kingarthurhk
05-20-2012, 22:01
You have to understand, KA's hatred of Catholics will trump any sort of reason you can offer.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

No. The only hate I have seen lately has been from you more often than not. I abhore your doctrines, I abore the innocent blood your Church has slain brutally in the name of those false doctrines. But, as for you, your relationship is between you and God.

What is wrong is wrong. If I have to be John the Baptists crying out in the wilderness about it, I will.

juggy4711
05-20-2012, 22:08
I hear many people who use Islamic fanaticism, sucide bombings, honor killings and such, to show the dangers of religion. Why? how do we know that those things are wrong? (assuming you do) You "Believe" they are wrong because you were raised in a Christian society that told you things like that were wrong. If you had been raised in a fundamentalist Muslim society you wouldn't think so. Unless you want to try and claim that you, and we, are somehow genetically superior, the only real conclusion is "there, but for the grace of God, go I ".

Well I was lucky enough to born in a place where I got to decide for myself what was wrong and right. If I had been raised somewhere that wasn't possible I most likely would have reached the same conclusion and not have been able to express it. Unless you believe that humans existed for 100k years or so without knowing what was right and wrong until Christians laid it out for us your premise is nonsense. I don't need God or another man, or any text to tell me rape is wrong, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong.

If you could not have come to that conclusion without the grace/word of God, there is something wrong with you. I have never encountered a person that thought any of that was ok. I have known people that did those things despite knowing it wasn't right. People do things they know are not right and it has nothing to do with if they were raised in a Christian society or not.

Again. I say this as an atheist who has strong respect for the Christian heritage and all it has given us, but not a person with a belief in the story of creation or in the certain knowledge of heaven. I am tired of what I see has a bunch of full grown juveniles rebelling against the ways of their parents and unwilling to admit that their parents ways kept them in shelter, warmth and food. Fine to go out in the world on your own path but remember to be grateful to what as brought you to the point of decision.

I have my opinions as a Deist with a strong respect for the Judeo/Christian roots of our society. I will agree though, that I grow tired of the certain anti Christian mentalities. It's not happy holidays it's merry Christmas. But to claim that without them we would be incapable of knowing right from wrong is just plain stupid.

juggy4711
05-20-2012, 22:13
What is wrong is wrong. If I have to be John the Baptists crying out in the wilderness about it, I will.

Posts like this is where I sort of get the whole Jesus thing. You identify as martyrs. What I do not get it the need to be a victim.

Animal Mother
05-20-2012, 22:18
Well if you guys have been going at it for years, far be it from me to spoil the fun.

As an observer I cannot find the part of the sentence "and only in the teachings of Jesus" that you were able to find. That's a heck of a set of eyes you have.

But, just for kicks, could you inform an ignoran,t and unschooled in such matters, fella like me where those people were following the teachings of Jesus? As I've answered repeatedly, that would be a question to direct towards the pastor, not me. I'm not advocating this sort of behavior, just sharing it.
By the way to reprise and rephrase a question I asked earlier, the "Son of Sam" killer claimed his dog told him to kill people. Does this mean that all of the members of the AKC made excuses for him, or are guilty themselves of being killers at the commands of their dogs? Did the members of the AKC make excuses for him? I must have missed that, perhaps you could share some of those news accounts.
I have yet to see anyone here excusing the actions of the people in the news report that opened this thread. Is this, again, something only you can see?You're correct, in this case, the chosen course of action has been to deny that they're really Christians, despite their apparent adherence to all the core beliefs of Christianity. Thus the reference to No True Scotsman.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 22:32
Well I was lucky enough to born in a place where I got to decide for myself what was wrong and right. If I had been raised somewhere that wasn't possible I most likely would have reached the same conclusion and not have been able to express it. Unless you believe that humans existed for 100k years or so without knowing what was right and wrong until Christians laid it out for us your premise is nonsense. I don't need God or another man, or any text to tell me rape is wrong, murder is wrong, stealing is wrong.

But in some other cultures those things are not wrong, unless you believe some divine power instills a sense of right and wrong in us at, or before, birth. That whole societies that don't agree with our sense of right and wrong are some how suffering from some "mass defect". It is your culture, not your genetics, that establish your sense of right from wrong. You are completely blind to the fact that,by circumstances of culture, there are people who will murder members of their own families, their own children, over "Honor" and they and their culture don't think it is "wrong". either they are someway born differently or they learned their morals from their culture. if you think what they do is "wrong" you learned it from the Christian values of your culture.

As to "stealing" many Native American tribes and clans never thought of what we call "stealing" as wrong. It was merely re apportioning wealth.


If you could not have come to that conclusion without the grace/word of God, there is something wrong with you. I have never encountered a person that thought any of that was ok.

Did you see the people in the middle east dancing in the streets after 9/11?

I have known people that did those things despite knowing it wasn't right. People do things they know are not right and it has nothing to do with if they were raised in a Christian society or not.

You really need to learn more about where yo come from.



I have my opinions as a Deist with a strong respect for the Judeo/Christian roots of our society. I will agree though, that I grow tired of the certain anti Christian mentalities. It's not happy holidays it's merry Christmas. But to claim that without them we would be incapable of knowing right from wrong is just plain stupid.


I am old enough that I could share with you something my Great, Great grandfather passed down, in the family from his experience in the Civil War, and that information helped my Father and was reenforced by his experiences in WWII, but I am afraid It would be a waste of my time.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 23:26
As I've answered repeatedly, that would be a question to direct towards the pastor, not me. I'm not advocating this sort of behavior, just sharing it.

So the statement "and only in the teachings of Jesus" doesn't exist, wasn't said in this thread. You just invented it. I Got it.



Did the members of the AKC make excuses for him? I must have missed that, perhaps you could share some of those news accounts.

A soon as you show me someone saying in this thread "what those people, in the article, di was alright because they were Christians"


You're correct, in this case, the chosen course of action has been to deny that they're really Christians, despite their apparent adherence to all the core beliefs of Christianity. Thus the reference to No True Scotsman.


That could almost pass as funny. You are trying to say what they did was in "apparent adherence to all the core values of Christianity". Even as an atheist I know better.
And you are so perfect that you have never been a part of any organization where any member has broken the rules. You have never, even by faintest connection.



I have serious problems with the idea that "Accepting Jesus" absolves one. That Hitler and and Stallin and Pol Pot could have gotten into some "heaven" by such action, but unless they did likewise, Ghandi, the Dali Lama, most of my family and a lot of fine people I have known, can't.

I do not however, harbor any deep desire to persecute those who believe these things. I find no validation of my beliefs in the belittling of others. I am not in the least offended by displays of their religion and I fully credit the beliefs at the core of their faith, to be responsible for the culture I live in and my values.

It seems to be odd, for us, as a Country, to be engaging in hostilities with a viscious enemy who does so many things we call "wrong" and to apparently want to tear down the very institution that gave us the idea that our enemies are "wrong" .

Animal Mother
05-21-2012, 00:11
So the statement "and only in the teachings of Jesus" doesn't exist, wasn't said in this thread. You just invented it. I Got it. It's implicit within Paul7's response, based both on past experience and the fact that if he didn't intend that limitation, he would have asked not about Jesus' teaching exclusively but about the Bible as a whole.
A soon as you show me someone saying in this thread "what those people, in the article, di was alright because they were Christians" As I've already said, in this instance they've chosen the course of denying these individuals were "real" Christians.
That could almost pass as funny. You are trying to say what they did was in "apparent adherence to all the core values of Christianity". No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that in adhering to the core values of Christianity, they should rightly be classified as Christians. They also did these things. Therefore Christians did these things.
And you are so perfect that you have never been a part of any organization where any member has broken the rules. You have never, even by faintest connection. Where did I say that? Where did I blame all Christians for the actions of these particular Christians?
I have serious problems with the idea that "Accepting Jesus" absolves one. That Hitler and and Stallin and Pol Pot could have gotten into some "heaven" by such action, but unless they did likewise, Ghandi, the Dali Lama, most of my family and a lot of fine people I have known, can't.

I do not however, harbor any deep desire to persecute those who believe these things. I find no validation of my beliefs in the belittling of others. I am not in the least offended by displays of their religion and I fully credit the beliefs at the core of their faith, to be responsible for the culture I live in and my values. Do you harbor a deep desire to stop people from abusing children, regardless of their religious beliefs?

It seems to be odd, for us, as a Country, to be engaging in hostilities with a viscious enemy who does so many things we call "wrong" and to apparently want to tear down the very institution that gave us the idea that our enemies are "wrong" .You're claiming to be an atheist who supports the institution of Christianity? Can you describe the nature of this monolithic body and how it gave us these ideas?

countrygun
05-21-2012, 01:41
It's implicit within Paul7's response, based both on past experience and the fact that if he didn't intend that limitation, he would have asked not about Jesus' teaching exclusively but about the Bible as a whole.

So I am supposed to take it on your word what he "really meant"? OK, lets say I were to ignore that and not ask you how you know this information that is unavailable to me, let us address the second portion of your statement, about the teachings of Jesus. are you aware that the Old Testament is the "Parent Seed" of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity? OK I will assume you do. Then are you aware that "Christian" implies one who believes in the techings of Christ? Ok we will assume you understand that part. that would mean that the teachings of Christ are what seperates christianity from the other religions. So, then, how else is someone going to respond to a question about the behavior of someone calling themself a Christian if not by referencing it to the teachings of Christ?

As I've already said, in this instance they've chosen the course of denying these individuals were "real" Christians.

Let's see, if I knew someone who professed to be a vegetarian, and I saw them eating a steak, I might conclude that they are not a "real vegetarian"

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that in adhering to the core values of Christianity, they should rightly be classified as Christians.

Again, see my example above. I wouldn't call someone eating a steak "adhering to the core values of vegetarianism"



They also did these things. Therefore Christians did these things.

Again, my exaple ate a steak therefore a vegetarian ate a steak. Oxymoronic.

Where did I say that? Where did I blame all Christians for the actions of these particular Christians?

I can call myself I "pianist" I can go out and buy a piano, heck i can even call myself a "piano teacher" but do any of those things make me a pianist? If I perpetrate a crime and claim "the rock and roll music I played made me do it" would you blame pianists, or rock and roll music? would you be in music forums and chat forums blasting either one?



Do you harbor a deep desire to stop people from abusing children, regardless of their religious beliefs?

Well I am certainly not Muslim, I was raised in a Christian society so of course


You're claiming to be an atheist who supports the institution of Christianity?

Now there you go again. Putting words in other people's mouths. You make quite a habit of that. You seem to have a knack for it. Will you kindly show where I said I SUPPORTED the "institution of Christianity"? We obviously disagree on the classification of Christianity as an institution. I always thought of it as a belief system.You sure do claim to know a lot of things that are never said.

Can you describe the nature of this monolithic body and how it gave us these ideas?

You really think you are clever, (pity) You falsely say that I claim to be a supporter of an institution. which I never did, and you try to interject your belief that it is, or at least paint it as such, and then you want me to describe the "monolithic body". How can I describe, to you, something I feel you have invented? After all, "Institution" and "monolithic body" are your words, not mine.



Your irrational attacks, and creative ability, as far as quoting things that haven't been said, leaves you looking in the mirror to find someone who thinks you have credibility on the subject.

Smacktard
05-21-2012, 02:13
The boy got off easy! He could have been burned at the stake.


...

Animal Mother
05-21-2012, 03:33
So I am supposed to take it on your word what he "really meant"? You could, or you could review the conversations that have gone in this forum over the last couple of years.
OK, lets say I were to ignore that and not ask you how you know this information that is unavailable to me, It is available to you, if you care to look.
let us address the second portion of your statement, about the teachings of Jesus. Oh, lets.
are you aware that the Old Testament is the "Parent Seed" of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity? OK I will assume you do. Then are you aware that "Christian" implies one who believes in the techings of Christ? Does believing the teachings of Christ involve discarding the remainder of the Bible? If not, and we're looking for justification of these actions, we might cite Proverbs 13:24 or 23:13-15, we might point out Hebrews 12:11 or if we were feeling especially literal Deuteronomy 21:18-21.
Ok we will assume you understand that part. that would mean that the teachings of Christ are what seperates christianity from the other religions. So, then, how else is someone going to respond to a question about the behavior of someone calling themself a Christian if not by referencing it to the teachings of Christ? Do any of the teachings of Christ abrogate the passages I've listed? Do those directives continue to hold weight for Christians? Are they all included in the Christian Bible?

Let's see, if I knew someone who professed to be a vegetarian, and I saw them eating a steak, I might conclude that they are not a "real vegetarian" Not eating steak is a core component of being a vegetarian. Which core component of Christianity was violated by the actions of these men? On the off chance you're not familiar with those core components, let us defer to the wisdom of the great theological scholar Paul7:
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth:
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried:
He descended into hell;
The third day he rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The holy Catholick Church;
The Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting.
Amen.

A good tip [for what is not Christianity] is religions that don't believe Jesus Christ is divine. Which of these aspects did the men in this story violate? If you have other core components, could you share them?

Again, see my example above. I wouldn't call someone eating a steak "adhering to the core values of vegetarianism" Neither would I, but then these men were torturing (or they might say disciplining a child) not eating steak. For your analogy to be valid, you'll need to show where their actions violated the core values of Christianity.

I can call myself I "pianist" I can go out and buy a piano, heck i can even call myself a "piano teacher" but do any of those things make me a pianist? If I perpetrate a crime and claim "the rock and roll music I played made me do it" would you blame pianists, or rock and roll music? would you be in music forums and chat forums blasting either one? Sorry, you've completely lost me now, except to say that blaming rock and roll for people's actions does seem to be a common tactic so while I wouldn't do it myself, it is done.

Well I am certainly not Muslim, I was raised in a Christian society so of course If you wish to prevent the abuse of children, shouldn't that abuse, when it happens, be brought forth, regardless of the religion of the perpetrators?
Now there you go again. Putting words in other people's mouths. You make quite a habit of that. You seem to have a knack for it. Will you kindly show where I said I SUPPORTED the "institution of Christianity"? When you wrote, "...tear down the very institution that gave us the idea that our enemies are "wrong" . " what institution did you mean?
We obviously disagree on the classification of Christianity as an institution. I always thought of it as a belief system. Perhaps you have a different understanding of the word institution than I do. But I'm sure you'll make that clear when you respond.
You sure do claim to know a lot of things that are never said. I apologize if I misunderstood your intent and do so eagerly await your clarification.
Your irrational attacks, and creative ability, as far as quoting things that haven't been said, leaves you looking in the mirror to find someone who thinks you have credibility on the subject.Reduced to ad hominem this quickly? That's disappointing.

snowbird
05-21-2012, 08:20
... If you wish to prevent the abuse of children, shouldn't that abuse, when it happens, be brought forth, regardless of the religion of the perpetrators?

Good question.

So how is it that you come up with threads such as this one, trying to direct everyone's energy towards the imagined dire threat of the dreaded "bad Christian", while ignoring and giving a pass to the clear and present danger of Islam? Our survival of the current jihad demands realistic priorities, certainly not leftist airy-fairy political correctness.

Remember, today's total of deadly (that means KILLED; and the subject you bally-hoo so extensively wasn't even hospitalized) Muslim attacks since 9/11 has now reached 18,918.

Included in those 18,918 attacks were egregious examples of the "child abuse" that AM callously and cynically ignores when done by Muslims (Christians simply are not doing these ungodly acts):

-yesterday, in Tirin Kot, Afghanistan, 2 children were among 4 people torn to shreds by a Religion of Peace suicide bomber

-the day before yesterday, in Khost, Afghanistan, 2 children were among at least 10 civilians wiped out by a Taliban suicide attack on a meeting between police and locals

-on May 18, in Baghdad, Iraq, a family of 5, including 3 young children, were murdered in their own home by Muslim 'insurgents'

-and on the same day, in Kunar, Afghanistan, 2 women and a child were crushed in their own home by a Sunni mortar round

What's it going to be, AM? Are you serious about preventing such child abuse, or not?

snowbird
05-21-2012, 10:21
One more case of child abuse for you, AM:

-Shafilea Ahmed, 17, was honor-killed (murdered) by her parents in front of her younger sister in the UK, because she had become "Westernised".

Of course, in dhimmi collaborator eyes, even noticing such stuff makes one a "bigot".:upeyes:

creaky
05-21-2012, 11:42
You could, or you could review the conversations that have gone in this forum over the last couple of years.
It is available to you, if you care to look.
Oh, lets.
Does believing the teachings of Christ involve discarding the remainder of the Bible? If not, and we're looking for justification of these actions, we might cite Proverbs 13:24 or 23:13-15, we might point out Hebrews 12:11 or if we were feeling especially literal Deuteronomy 21:18-21.
Do any of the teachings of Christ abrogate the passages I've listed? Do those directives continue to hold weight for Christians? Are they all included in the Christian Bible?
Not eating steak is a core component of being a vegetarian. Which core component of Christianity was violated by the actions of these men? On the off chance you're not familiar with those core components, let us defer to the wisdom of the great theological scholar Paul7: Which of these aspects did the men in this story violate? If you have other core components, could you share them?
Neither would I, but then these men were torturing (or they might say disciplining a child) not eating steak. For your analogy to be valid, you'll need to show where their actions violated the core values of Christianity.
Sorry, you've completely lost me now, except to say that blaming rock and roll for people's actions does seem to be a common tactic so while I wouldn't do it myself, it is done.
If you wish to prevent the abuse of children, shouldn't that abuse, when it happens, be brought forth, regardless of the religion of the perpetrators?
When you wrote, "...tear down the very institution that gave us the idea that our enemies are "wrong" . " what institution did you mean?
Perhaps you have a different understanding of the word institution than I do. But I'm sure you'll make that clear when you respond.
I apologize if I misunderstood your intent and do so eagerly await your clarification.
Reduced to ad hominem this quickly? That's disappointing.

Even fellow atheists see through your disingenuous baloney...

Your kung fu continues to be on the weak side, grasshopper.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Paul7
05-21-2012, 18:54
Remember, today's total of deadly (that means KILLED; and the subject you bally-hoo so extensively wasn't even hospitalized) Muslim attacks since 9/11 has now reached 18,918.

Exactly. If you tallied the number Muslims merely slapped around in their intimidation efforts, it would probably be 250,000+ since 9/11.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 07:45
Would you like to discuss the dangers of having no moral doctrine?
What is morality?

Would you like to point out a consistant, codified moral doctrine that the large majority of those, who don't believe in you know they do.supreme being, adhere to.

I believe that's the most indecipherable sentence I have ever read.

In as much as religion has provided a basis for legal and moral codes in societies,I would like to know what consistent principles are going to replace religion and exactly how is that going to be ingrained in the populace in a consistent manner?

Religion didn't create morality. Religion hijacked it.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 07:59
I'm sure you would give the same deference to believers of Mohamed.

And for the record I think anyone that believes in any religion is a religious lunatic.

The problem is you think you are empowered to judge. Muslims claim the same. Don't call Islamic terrorists Muslims because it just shows abject ignorance.

Yeah whatever.

You beat me to it, buy why stop with the Muslims? Would he give the same deference to communist, Nazis, liberals (gasp) and so on? If I were to say that communism was not the reason the Soviet Union collapsed because the Soviets were not true communist, would the Christians here find fault with my logic? I'm certain they would do a 180.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 08:09
I hear many people who use Islamic fanaticism, sucide bombings, honor killings and such, to show the dangers of religion. Why? how do we know that those things are wrong? (assuming you do) You "Believe" they are wrong because you were raised in a Christian society that told you things like that were wrong. I Right, only the Christian societies believe it's wrong to kill.

I am tired of what I see has a bunch of full grown juveniles rebelling against the ways of their parents and unwilling to admit that their parents ways kept them in shelter, warmth and food.

Thank you Dr. Freud. Sounds like you're having problems with your children.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 08:16
David Berkowitz, the .44 killer "Son of Sam" in NYC said he received commands to kill from his dog. Does that mean that dog owners are responsible for his crimes, or that dogs cause crime?

It means people who believe in God are responsible. If he hadn't believed in God then God could not have talked to him through his neighbor's dog.

snowbird
05-23-2012, 09:34
What is morality?

You sound like Pontius Pilate, who asked, "What is truth?"

Today's left is confused and trying to confuse everybody else. Thus their multiculturalist lie that all cultures are equal, that communism wasn't so bad, and that Christianity is just as bad as Islam.

scccdoc
05-23-2012, 09:55
It has been said by some on this board that I am a hypocrite, I slander posters, and that I am a poor example of Christianity.

If I were to do what these people did (allegedly),would you post this as a"Christian" who tortured this child or a hypocrite who did not follow Jesus?

Paul7
05-23-2012, 10:01
You sound like Pontius Pilate, who asked, "What is truth?"

Today's left is confused and trying to confuse everybody else. Thus their multiculturalist lie that all cultures are equal, that communism wasn't so bad, and that Christianity is just as bad as Islam.

Getting harder for them to hang on to that fiction, isn't it?

countrygun
05-23-2012, 10:03
It means people who believe in God are responsible. If he hadn't believed in God then God could not have talked to him through his neighbor's dog.


Or, People who own guns, because he couldn't have shot people, as per the dog's instructions, without a gun.

What would you do, have the word "God" removed from all text because someone might believe in a God"

That was a truly ridiculpus post, be proud of your logic:upeyes:

Paul7
05-23-2012, 11:24
It means people who believe in God are responsible. If he hadn't believed in God then God could not have talked to him through his neighbor's dog.

If you're a hammer, every problem is a nail......

scccdoc
05-23-2012, 11:52
Or, People who own guns, because he couldn't have shot people, as per the dog's instructions, without a gun.

What would you do, have the word "God" removed from all text because someone might believe in a God"

That was a truly ridiculpus post, be proud of your logic:upeyes:

:rofl:

countrygun
05-23-2012, 12:26
Right, only the Christian societies believe it's wrong to kill.

They seem to have a lot more restrictions on it than a lot of folks. But then again atheists don't have any rules.


Thank you Dr. Freud. Sounds like you're having problems with your children.


Sorry for your paternal confusion, but I am reasonably sure I never met your mother.



Folks have been comitting horrible crimes for any number of reasons and blaming it on what ever is handy since someone mentioned that the crime was "bad".

People who run around prostlytizing atheism are generally insecure and "shot in the tail with it" very much like religious fanatics.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 12:44
You sound like Pontius Pilate, who asked, "What is truth?"

Today's left is confused and trying to confuse everybody else. Thus their multiculturalist lie that all cultures are equal, that communism wasn't so bad, and that Christianity is just as bad as Islam.

So what's your answer? What is morality? If you can't define it you can't carp about it. Well, you can, but no one is going to take you seriously.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 12:45
Or, People who own guns, because he couldn't have shot people, as per the dog's instructions, without a gun.

What would you do, have the word "God" removed from all text because someone might believe in a God"

That was a truly ridiculpus post, be proud of your logic:upeyes:

That was my point.

muscogee
05-23-2012, 12:46
Getting harder for them to hang on to that fiction, isn't it?

Exactly what is the fiction?

muscogee
05-23-2012, 12:54
Sorry for your paternal confusion, but I am reasonably sure I never met your mother.
You sound just like her. Do you ever wonder why so many people raised in the church grow up to have no respect for Christianity? Keep it up. People like you are great recruiters for atheism.


People who run around prostlytizing atheism are generally insecure and "shot in the tail with it" very much like religious fanatics.

Can you back this up with anything? How about the DSM-IV? Probably never heard of it.

countrygun
05-23-2012, 13:23
You sound just like her. Do you ever wonder why so many people raised in the church grow up to have no respect for Christianity? Keep it up. People like you are great recruiters for atheism.

You are showing your lack of cognative skills. I am an atheist. I just don't walk aroound with a chip on my shoulder, all insecure, trying to bash religion (specifically Christianity) at every opportunity.

Can you back this up with anything? How about the DSM-IV? Probably never heard of it

You are kidding. This very thread is an example. You are so blind that you can't see that your actions are just the same as a religious fanatic?

I guess I don't have to try to run around and prove I am superior to people of religion. I don't have to "preach" the case for atheism, nor "convert" the believers. I am glad for what the religion has brought this Country and I am tired of atheist acting like the Taliban, who destroyed centuries old Buddhist statues to try and wipe out traces of what has been there before them.


.


At least when I deal with a Christian I have a pretty good idea that no matter what sect, denomination, or church they come from they have a familiarity with the Ten Commandments. That at least give a basis for finding common ground. There is no common doctrine that I have can use to relate to an atheist.

Paul7
05-23-2012, 15:28
At least when I deal with a Christian I have a pretty good idea that no matter what sect, denomination, or church they come from they have a familiarity with the Ten Commandments. That at least give a basis for finding common ground. There is no common doctrine that I have can use to relate to an atheist.

Yes, it is often like trying to nail jello to a wall.

void *
05-23-2012, 17:17
There is no common doctrine that I have can use to relate to an atheist.

Why do you need "common doctrine"?

Why can't you just start with the fact that you're both people?

countrygun
05-23-2012, 17:54
Why do you need "common doctrine"?

Why can't you just start with the fact that you're both people?


Oh brother, it takes a heck of an effort to feign ignorance but you do your best.

As a general rule, I know a Christian has at least been told "Thou shalt not steal" That doesn't mean they might not, but I don't know that an atheist was ever taught that.

Man learns a set of values from somewhere, if he came out of the womb with them, that would qualify as a sign of "Divine Intervention" I am pretty sure where a Christian developed their ethos. There are no guidlines for an atheist. I have to trust their parents did the right thing. Funny though, the Ten Commandments, except for the religious piety(to non-believers) just happen to be a good set of rules to build a society around-what a coincidence.

I have met many fine people atheists, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Jew, etc. I have never felt a need to poke at their beliefs, i take them as the people they are, but I can study the religious works of many of their faiths and I have. (Several classes in philosophy in college) the problem with an atheist is there is no common doctrine for them to believe in since they don't commonly believe in anything.

All you have to do to be an "Atheist" is "not believe in anything". Great, yah OK. I am an atheist but I still follow about 8 of the Ten Commandments i can't say that about any othe atheists I meet.

ksg0245
05-23-2012, 18:29
Oh brother, it takes a heck of an effort to feign ignorance but you do your best.

As a general rule, I know a Christian has at least been told "Thou shalt not steal" That doesn't mean they might not, but I don't know that an atheist was ever taught that.

Man learns a set of values from somewhere, if he came out of the womb with them, that would qualify as a sign of "Divine Intervention" I am pretty sure where a Christian developed their ethos. There are no guidlines for an atheist. I have to trust their parents did the right thing. Funny though, the Ten Commandments, except for the religious piety(to non-believers) just happen to be a good set of rules to build a society around-what a coincidence.

I have met many fine people atheists, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Jew, etc. I have never felt a need to poke at their beliefs, i take them as the people they are, but I can study the religious works of many of their faiths and I have. (Several classes in philosophy in college) the problem with an atheist is there is no common doctrine for them to believe in since they don't commonly believe in anything.

All you have to do to be an "Atheist" is "not believe in anything". Great, yah OK. I am an atheist but I still follow about 8 of the Ten Commandments i can't say that about any othe atheists I meet.

How did you come to that observation? Have you met atheists who weren't taught not to steal, for example?

There are various versions of the Ten Commandments, but the first four are about God. Out of curiosity, which of those do you follow?

void *
05-23-2012, 18:31
Oh brother, it takes a heck of an effort to feign ignorance but you do your best.

As a general rule, I know a Christian has at least been told "Thou shalt not steal" That doesn't mean they might not, but I don't know that an atheist was ever taught that.

You don't know that they weren't, either, and you don't know whether they will or won't even if nobody told them (it's not impossible to figure out 'hey, I don't like it when people take my stuff, I shouldn't take their stuff either' on your own). My point here isn't 'feigning ignorance' but more a matter of, who cares what the doctrine they profess is, why not look at what they *do*?

For instance, I don't care if people are Christian, as long as they're good people. I don't care what people label themselves, you can tell if they're good people or bad people, ignoring how they self-label. You just look at what they *do*. What do you think the odds are that you know somebody who you think is a standup guy, who is actually an atheist, but you're assuming they're not?

It's fairly interesting that your initial response was an accusation of dishonesty, though.

countrygun
05-23-2012, 19:15
You don't know that they weren't, either, and you don't know whether they will or won't even if nobody told them (it's not impossible to figure out 'hey, I don't like it when people take my stuff, I shouldn't take their stuff either' on your own). .


Are you saying that you have "FAITH" that others know right from wrong?

void *
05-23-2012, 19:35
Are you saying that you have "FAITH" that others know right from wrong?

Are you saying that observing other people's actions and making an assessment based on that is "FAITH"?

As opposed to asking them what their doctrine is and trusting that they stick to it?

What you left *out* of your quote of my post, to even ask that question, speaks volumes.

countrygun
05-23-2012, 19:53
Are you saying that observing other people's actions and making an assessment based on that is "FAITH"?

As opposed to asking them what their doctrine is and trusting that they stick to it?

What you left *out* of your quote of my post, to even ask that question, speaks volumes.


I have always measured people by actions, but none the less, I know I have some common ground with a Christian because I understand the core of their faith.


Again you keep dodging something,

I KNOW that anyone who is a Christian, or professes to be and that I feel is being honest based on my experience and evaluation, is familiar with the Ten Commandments as a moral base.

Can you tell me one thing that ANYONE and EVERYONE who is an atheist has, besides not believing in a God, as a moral base that I know they are familiar with.

Sorry to reduce this to personal experience, but that is the only kind of experience I have. I have met "good" Christians and "bad" Christians as I have atheists. I find the Christians to be more consistent and I find atheists to be all over the map morally.

void *
05-23-2012, 20:25
Can you tell me one thing that ANYONE and EVERYONE who is an atheist has, besides not believing in a God, as a moral base that I know they are familiar with.

I would expect that most atheists grew up in societies in which the society actively prohibits things like murder, theft, etc.

However, my point is, again, *even if they don't*, why does that matter? If you know a guy is an atheist, and you see him, say, return things to people no matter what the value of that thing is, why would your 'common doctrine' matter to your assessment of whether or not he's an opportunistic thief?

If you know a guy that professes this "common doctrine" you're discussing, and you see him keep something of high value that came into his hands without attempting to find an owner, how does this 'common doctrine' matter to your assessment of whether or not he's an opportunistic thief?

Why do you even need the common doctrine? Why would you even need to know whether or not that person *shares* that common doctrine with you?

Edit:
There's a story that kind of fits my example above. I used to work in a little grocery store, and we were allowed to keep a tab as long as we kept that tab fairly low. Everything that was stock from that store, that came into my possession, I either paid cash for, or documented on my tab, and paid the tab later, which was usually on a payday. I'd forget to bring some cash and get like a sandwich or something for lunch, or whatever.

There was an older guy I worked with. The store got in a bit of money trouble, and my boss couldn't afford to pay both of us anymore, and since I was a strapping young lad with no responsibility, and the other guy had a wife and kids, I got let go. I had no problem with that decision.

A month or so later, I went into the store to buy something (I forget what), and my boss offered me the job back. It turned out that the other guy had been taking stuff, not paying for it, and not putting it on his tab, and he eventually got caught. So I started working there again.

I don't know if that other guy professed to be Christian or not. I don't know whether he professed to be an atheist. I don't know, I don't care, and I don't need to know to decide that what he did was not right. My question to you is, what effect would knowing that someone in the above situation "shared a common doctrine" with you would have on your assessment of whether or not what he did was right or wrong? If there is an effect, what justifies that?

countrygun
05-23-2012, 20:34
I would expect that most atheists grew up in societies in which the society actively prohibits things like murder, theft, etc.

However, my point is, again, *even if they don't*, why does that matter? If you know a guy is an atheist, and you see him, say, return things to people no matter what the value of that thing is, why would your 'common doctrine' matter to your assessment of whether or not he's an opportunistic thief?

If you know a guy that professes this "common doctrine" you're discussing, and you see him keep something of high value that came into his hands without attempting to find an owner, how does this 'common doctrine' matter to your assessment of whether or not he's an opportunistic thief?

Why do you even need the common doctrine? Why would you even need to know whether or not that person *shares* that common doctrine with you?


Why? because I like it that way. That simple.

muscogee
05-24-2012, 10:07
You are showing your lack of cognative skills.

I lack cognitive skills because you ramble and can't express yourself clearly.?

I am an atheist. I just don't walk aroound with a chip on my shoulder, all insecure, trying to bash religion (specifically Christianity) at every opportunity.

From your posts you appear quite insecure. Why else would make statements to get a rise out of people and then revert to personal attacks when you're logic won't hold? You appear to be an attention seeking troll. So far you've offered nothing but vitriol.

I guess I don't have to try to run around and prove I am superior to people of religion.
Then what are you trying to prove? You obviously feel you're superior to people who disagree with you. You're not above avoiding a conversation by reverting to personal insults. If you want to discuss cognitive dysfunction, insecurity, and feelings of superiority, let's start there. Of course you won't because you can't. You will just continue to hide behind baseless personal insults.

I don't have to "preach" the case for atheism, nor "convert" the believers.
Then what are you “preaching the case” for? You may not be a Christian, but you argue like one. You attack from one position. When someone nails you on you're position, you reverse yourself and claim to be the opposite of what you initially claimed. You're not trying to have a discussion. You're just seeking attention.

I am glad for what the religion has brought this Country and I am tired of atheist acting like the Taliban, who destroyed centuries old Buddhist statues to try and wipe out traces of what has been there before them.

One more time, religion didn't create morality. They hijacked it and claimed it was their exclusive creation and no one else has the right to. You really haven't thought very deeply about this.

At least when I deal with a Christian I have a pretty good idea that no matter what sect, denomination, or church they come from they have a familiarity with the Ten Commandments. That at least give a basis for finding common ground. There is no common doctrine that I have can use to relate to an atheist.
Most Christians can't name the Ten Commandments.

“Thou shalt have no other gods before me. “ What does that mean in today's culture? Does it mean there are multiple gods, but you only worship “I am”? What if I have other gods? What then? What does that mean to an alleged atheist like you? Why is that important to you for someone to know that?

How about, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: “ OK, so I can't have any kind of statue. That's right up there with killing and stealing. Important to have that codified and deified.

“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: “ We all do that, don't we? No football, on Saturday. No fire or police protection. That's a real practical commandment.

“Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. “ What if they're cruel and vicious? What if they're child molesters? Why would anyone want their days to be long under those conditions?

You're obviously not a deep thinker.

As far as acting like the Taliban, I'm not aware of anyone in this forum destroying any religious property. Where's your evidence for that? If your past posts are any indication, you response will be a personal attack because you lack the gray matter to give a thoughtful factual response.

Roering
05-24-2012, 10:19
Protestant Extremists

countrygun
05-24-2012, 14:01
Ah the amusement on a rainy day. Well 'muscogee" here it goes.

 

"I lack cognitive skills because you ramble and can't express yourself clearly.?"

 

It was obviously clear enough for you to respond to.



"From your posts you appear quite insecure. Why else would make statements to get a rise out of people and then revert to personal attacks when you're logic won't hold? You appear to be an attention seeking troll. So far you've offered nothing but vitriol."

 

Ah vitriol, it has become quite a buzzword hasn't it? Personal attacks? Add up all the ones you make in this little missive of yours. Funny. I state that people who have to bash the religion of others are insecure and in response I get "I know you are but what am I?"



"Then what are you trying to prove? You obviously feel you're superior to people who disagree with you. You're not above avoiding a conversation by reverting to personal insults. If you want to discuss cognitive dysfunction, insecurity, and feelings of superiority, let's start there. Of course you won't because you can't. You will just continue to hide behind baseless personal insults."

 

Your point as it relates to the topic? Oh, of course not you are too busy throwing personal insults. Dont' worry however, I will address my purpose or as you put it "what I am trying to prove" later.




"Then what are you "preaching the case" for? You may not be a Christian, but you argue like one. You attack from one position. When someone nails you on you're position, you reverse yourself and claim to be the opposite of what you initially claimed. You're not trying to have a discussion. You're just seeking attention"

.

I am not one of "you" therefore I must be one of "them" is that it?.

( BTW it is amusing that you use the term "nailed". While today it is most commonly associated with the term "Nailed to the wall" 100 years ago it was associated with the phrase "Nailed to the cross of his beliefs". Even as an Atheist I find it amusing when displays of Christian imagery crop up)


"One more time, religion didn't create morality. They hijacked it and claimed it was their exclusive creation and no one else has the right to. You really haven't thought very deeply about this."

 

You haven't read very deeply. I never claimed that religion created morality. If you truly are the deep thinker you fancy yourself then you must be aware of this and must be trying to put words in my mouth. I said that Christianity was the basis for our moral code. Just as American musicians didn't invent the twelve-note musical scale, their interpretation of it is responsible for most of the music listened to in this Country.


"Most Christians can't name the Ten Commandments."

 

You really should publish the results of your startling in-depth study



 

The specific Commandments you quoted are, obviously intended to promote obesience which would be expected if they were the basis for a code of conduct and indeed the forerunners of a legal system. (BTW since I don't make images of any dieties am in great shape on at least one)


"You're obviously not a deep thinker."""

 

Deep thinker? Hmm lets see here about an example of deep thought,

 

Quote:

<table dir="LTR" border="0" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="6" width="624"><tbody><tr><td vAlign="MIDDLE">Originally Posted by countrygun[/URL]
[URL="http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18989501/lpost18989501"] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18989501/lpost18989501)

David Berkowitz, the .44 killer "Son of Sam" in NYC said he received commands to kill from his dog. Does that mean that dog owners are responsible for his crimes, or that dogs cause crime?

</td></tr></tbody></table>
"It means people who believe in God are responsible. If he hadn't believed in God then God could not have talked to him through his neighbor's dog." (Your words)

 


Don't blame a mental abhorration which caused a man to think that a dog was talking to him in the first place no, that would be too deep. Blame a belief in God. Obviously no killing could possibly have a roots in anything else. Yes that is an example of real deep thinking alright

"As far as acting like the Taliban, I'm not aware of anyone in this forum destroying any religious property. Where's your evidence for that? If your past posts are any indication, you response will be a personal attack because you lack the gray matter to give a thoughtful factual response."
 

Atheists are following a pattern as old as we can reconstruct. 'Eliminate the trappings of the belief system that went before." We see attacks on the Ten Commandments on public buildings, complaints about the presence of crosses here and there. Funny that many of these trappings will be absorbed into the "new" belief system. Much of what we consider "bad" language, was once referred to as "cursing". Most amusing and a prime example is what was once a "pagan" holiday around the winter solstice, Christianity co-opted it for thier purposes and now it is slowly being re-named and co-opted from Christianity exactly as they acquired it.

 

 

Now, as far as what I am trying to prove. I would like to remind Christians that not everyone who doesn't believe, (Atheists) are out there trying to bash their religion and beliefs. That some of us are not dealing from any need to prove their is no God or ridicule those who believe there is.

 

I would also like to the the virulent anti-Christians know that they do not represent every Atheist, and hold up a small mirror for them, if they have the courage, to look into.

"Remove traces of what went before. Take down symbols of the "old" religion"

"Ridicule the Old religion wherever it is spoken of in public. Confine "them" to their houses of worship."

"Blame bad crops, famine, flood drought on the Old religion"

Absorb what must be kept but rename it and assimilate it

"Castigate those of our new faith who do not join in these efforts. Call them "Blasphemers" Showing respect to the old ways is a "sin".

"Promise people that peace will reign in the land if the New religion is adopted and the followers of the Old religion eliminated"

 

Frankly I don't see much difference between the Atheist zealots and the religious zealots.

 

 

muscogee
05-24-2012, 14:31
Ah the amusement on a rainy day. Well 'muscogee" here it goes.

 

"I lack cognitive skills because you ramble and can't express yourself clearly.?"

 

It was obviously clear enough for you to respond to.



"From your posts you appear quite insecure. Why else would make statements to get a rise out of people and then revert to personal attacks when you're logic won't hold? You appear to be an attention seeking troll. So far you've offered nothing but vitriol."

 

Ah vitriol, it has become quite a buzzword hasn't it? Personal attacks? Add up all the ones you make in this little missive of yours. Funny. I state that people who have to bash the religion of others are insecure and in response I get "I know you are but what am I?"



"Then what are you trying to prove? You obviously feel you're superior to people who disagree with you. You're not above avoiding a conversation by reverting to personal insults. If you want to discuss cognitive dysfunction, insecurity, and feelings of superiority, let's start there. Of course you won't because you can't. You will just continue to hide behind baseless personal insults."

 

Your point as it relates to the topic? Oh, of course not you are too busy throwing personal insults. Dont' worry however, I will address my purpose or as you put it "what I am trying to prove" later.




"Then what are you "preaching the case" for? You may not be a Christian, but you argue like one. You attack from one position. When someone nails you on you're position, you reverse yourself and claim to be the opposite of what you initially claimed. You're not trying to have a discussion. You're just seeking attention"

.

I am not one of "you" therefore I must be one of "them" is that it?.

( BTW it is amusing that you use the term "nailed". While today it is most commonly associated with the term "Nailed to the wall" 100 years ago it was associated with the phrase "Nailed to the cross of his beliefs". Even as an Atheist I find it amusing when displays of Christian imagery crop up)


"One more time, religion didn't create morality. They hijacked it and claimed it was their exclusive creation and no one else has the right to. You really haven't thought very deeply about this."

 

You haven't read very deeply. I never claimed that religion created morality. If you truly are the deep thinker you fancy yourself then you must be aware of this and must be trying to put words in my mouth. I said that Christianity was the basis for our moral code. Just as American musicians didn't invent the twelve-note musical scale, their interpretation of it is responsible for most of the music listened to in this Country.


"Most Christians can't name the Ten Commandments."

 

You really should publish the results of your startling in-depth study



 

The specific Commandments you quoted are, obviously intended to promote obesience which would be expected if they were the basis for a code of conduct and indeed the forerunners of a legal system. (BTW since I don't make images of any dieties am in great shape on at least one)


"You're obviously not a deep thinker."""

 

Deep thinker? Hmm lets see here about an example of deep thought,

 

Quote:

<table dir="LTR" border="0" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="6" width="624"><tbody><tr><td vAlign="MIDDLE">Originally Posted by countrygun[/URL]
[URL="http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18989501/lpost18989501"] (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18989501/lpost18989501)

David Berkowitz, the .44 killer "Son of Sam" in NYC said he received commands to kill from his dog. Does that mean that dog owners are responsible for his crimes, or that dogs cause crime?

</td></tr></tbody></table>
"It means people who believe in God are responsible. If he hadn't believed in God then God could not have talked to him through his neighbor's dog." (Your words)

 


Don't blame a mental abhorration which caused a man to think that a dog was talking to him in the first place no, that would be too deep. Blame a belief in God. Obviously no killing could possibly have a roots in anything else. Yes that is an example of real deep thinking alright

"As far as acting like the Taliban, I'm not aware of anyone in this forum destroying any religious property. Where's your evidence for that? If your past posts are any indication, you response will be a personal attack because you lack the gray matter to give a thoughtful factual response."
 

Atheists are following a pattern as old as we can reconstruct. 'Eliminate the trappings of the belief system that went before." We see attacks on the Ten Commandments on public buildings, complaints about the presence of crosses here and there. Funny that many of these trappings will be absorbed into the "new" belief system. Much of what we consider "bad" language, was once referred to as "cursing". Most amusing and a prime example is what was once a "pagan" holiday around the winter solstice, Christianity co-opted it for thier purposes and now it is slowly being re-named and co-opted from Christianity exactly as they acquired it.

 

 

Now, as far as what I am trying to prove. I would like to remind Christians that not everyone who doesn't believe, (Atheists) are out there trying to bash their religion and beliefs. That some of us are not dealing from any need to prove their is no God or ridicule those who believe there is.

 

I would also like to the the virulent anti-Christians know that they do not represent every Atheist, and hold up a small mirror for them, if they have the courage, to look into.

"Remove traces of what went before. Take down symbols of the "old" religion"

"Ridicule the Old religion wherever it is spoken of in public. Confine "them" to their houses of worship."

"Blame bad crops, famine, flood drought on the Old religion"

Absorb what must be kept but rename it and assimilate it

"Castigate those of our new faith who do not join in these efforts. Call them "Blasphemers" Showing respect to the old ways is a "sin".

"Promise people that peace will reign in the land if the New religion is adopted and the followers of the Old religion eliminated"

 

Frankly I don't see much difference between the Atheist zealots and the religious zealots.

 

 

Just what I expected. Shallow mindless rambling. You're not worthy of further comment.

countrygun
05-24-2012, 14:57
Just what I expected. Shallow mindless rambling. You're not worthy of further comment.



"sedit qui timuit ne non succederet"

Kingarthurhk
05-24-2012, 16:56
Protestant Extremists

Ironic.