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snerd
05-19-2012, 08:33
Hmmmm......
Trayvon Martin (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Trayvon+Martin)'s death was “avoidable.”

That’s the conclusion of a new police report on the unarmed teen’s killing at the hands of George Zimmerman (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/George+Zimmerman) in Sanford, Fla.

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern," the document by Sanford, Fla. Police said.

"There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/trayvon-martin-death-ultimately-avoidable-florida-police-report-article-1.1080493

RustyShackelford
05-19-2012, 08:37
I bet almost any death (outside of illness, and sometimes then also) ultimately avoidable, lol.

Cavalry Doc
05-19-2012, 08:44
Everybody dies at least once. Sometimes earlier than necessary due to personal choices, or the choices of others.

I agree that trayvon could still be alive. Either Zimmerman or Trayvon, or possibly both are responsible for the way things turned out.

Gunboat1
05-19-2012, 08:45
Highly biased opinion in that piece of trash report. How do they know that Zimmerman didn't intend to simply converse with Martin, identify himself as neighborhood watch and ask him what he was doing? There's no evidence that any such conversation took place, though. First contact appears to have been when Trayvon instigated a beating of Zimmerman.

Bottom line: neighborhood watch has a right to exist. That neighborhood had been having burglary problems, perpetrated by black males. Zimmerman had a right to follow Trayvon, to observe his actions, and if he felt like it, to approach him and ask him if he belonged in the neighborhood. That is all completely legal and proper.

A suggestion "we don't need you to do that" (follow him) by a 911 dispatcher is not a binding order by any legal authority. Zimmerman would have been breaking no law if he had continued to follow Trayvon. Even so, the 911 tape seems to indicate that Zimmerman broke off his pursuit at that point anyway, and Martin circled back to attack HIM.

Thuglet Trayvon, on the other hand, did NOT have the right to attack Zimmerman for watching him, nor even for approaching him and asking him any questions (which the 911 tape shows no evidence of Zimmerman having done.) What the evidence seems to show is that Trayvon (complete with THC in his bloodstream indicating illegal drug use) took exception to a smaller lighter-skinned guy watching him, decided to feloniously assault him to register his displeasure, and got what he deserved when Zimmerman legally and properly defended himself with lethal force. There would be fewer violent crimes by predatory criminals if this happened a bit more often, frankly. You attack people, you get shot - period.

I think Zimmerman was totally justified. I hope he walks, and then sues numerous people and news organizations for millions.

Ruble Noon
05-19-2012, 08:47
Yes, if guns were outlawed Trayvon would still be alive.

redbrd
05-19-2012, 08:50
Yes, if guns were outlawed Trayvon would still be alive.

Maybe but a lot of other folks wouldn't be, to include possibly Zimmerman.

countrygun
05-19-2012, 09:59
That is a perfect example of how screwy this Country has become and how standards have slipped.

In my day, my shift commander would have hung me to a wall if I included such a blatant personal opinion in an official police report. It simply was not done. "just the facts, officer" and like it or not, someone, even a police officers opinion, is not a FACT. That is an officer making a judgement that is first up to the DA to decide should be made, and for a Court to make.

On top of that it is not an opinion based on the LAW but a moral opinion, it is sad that people cannot tell the difference anymore because we have so blurred the line between legal issues handled in criminal court and civil issues handled in civil court.

It is no wonder we have such a litiguous society when we have garbage like that interjected in police reports. That is also a reason that "stand your ground" laws have become popular. It is very simple "If you criminally assaul someone and they respond with deadly force, then you or your survivors can't make a penny in civil court, so don't go around assaulting people."


If I had ever handled a case that got this big and I had put a personal opinion like that in a report, my Chief would have flayed me alive and my skin would still be on the locker room wall as a warning to all. And the Sgt's skin would be there too for letting the report pass.

SPIN2010
05-19-2012, 10:08
What! A police report that is biased? Say it ain't so Martha!

:rofl: First one to call the COPS wins!

Ruble Noon
05-19-2012, 10:10
Maybe but a lot of other folks wouldn't be, to include possibly Zimmerman.

Yes, the point is that the report is nothing more than opinion. Police could look at any wreck in this country and state the opinion that if one of the drivers had left 30 seconds later the accident could have been avoided. The report is nothing more than an exercise in what if.
What if Trayvon didn't have the munchies and stayed home instead of going to the 711?

Lethaltxn
05-19-2012, 10:16
Death is ultimately avoidable if you aren't born.

Ruble Noon
05-19-2012, 10:24
If democrats weren't allowed to carry guns, Trayvon would still be alive.

ModGlock17
05-19-2012, 10:29
Shakespearian response: Fate, is unavoidable.

A report should be a detailed collection of facts in chronological order. An editorial is an opinionated piece. The investigative officer forgot his training.

The standard low-liability CYA response from all 911 operators would be "Wait for the police." They would never say anything otherwise. The problem is that Reginal Denny never got help from the police soon enough... the mob got disinterested and left.

Cavalry Doc
05-19-2012, 10:40
Yes, the point is that the report is nothing more than opinion. Police could look at any wreck in this country and state the opinion that if one of the drivers had left 30 seconds later the accident could have been avoided. The report is nothing more than an exercise in what if.
What if Trayvon didn't have the munchies and stayed home instead of going to the 711?

Wait, but that would make marijuana the root cause. Impossible, as I've been told here many times that marijuana is completely harmless, and most likely beneficial.

oldman11
05-19-2012, 10:43
Yes, if guns were outlawed Trayvon would still be alive.
Yep, that is what all the criminals are saying.

Snowman92D
05-19-2012, 10:49
In my day, my shift commander would have hung me to a wall if I included such a blatant personal opinion in an official police report. It simply was not done. "just the facts, officer" and like it or not, someone, even a police officers opinion, is not a FACT.

If I had ever handled a case that got this big and I had put a personal opinion like that in a report, my Chief would have flayed me alive and my skin would still be on the locker room wall as a warning to all. And the Sgt's skin would be there too for letting the report pass.

:agree:

G29Reload
05-19-2012, 12:14
Not engaged in any criminal activity?

Drugs are legal in FL now? What?

TDC20
05-19-2012, 12:22
I see zero difference between all of those saying "...if Zimmerman had just stayed in his car...." and "She deserved to be raped. Just look at the way she was dressed!"

Haven't we gotten past that as a society? Of course TM had every right to be in the neighborhood and wasn't breaking any laws. Of course GZ had every right to step out of his car and find out who TM was and what he was doing there, and wasn't breaking any laws. Up until the physical confrontation, there was no law broken on either party's behalf.

Stupid, illogical, irrational thinking. Can anyone still think rationally in this country? They obviously don't teach people how to do that in school anymore.

Mister_Beefy
05-19-2012, 14:14
It is no wonder we have such a litiguous society when we have garbage like that interjected in police reports. That is also a reason that "stand your ground" laws have become popular.



also the reason why filming police has become more popular.

cowboy1964
05-19-2012, 14:50
I'm really getting tired of this crap. Did Zimmerman approach Martin or did Martin approach Zimmerman? Pretty sure all the evidence is pointing to the latter. But regardless, who started the assault? Answer that question logically, and based on the evidence so far, and this case is over.

CAcop
05-19-2012, 14:51
It was probably the report that was used to secure the warrant. Our reports for those puposes only can have officer's opinions in them. Typically it is a detective reviewing all of the reports and evidence collected and writing it up. The DA will often be consulted before writing this kind of report. It essentially bridges the gap between the more traditional, objective reports and the DA's filings in court.

DOC44
05-19-2012, 14:51
If TM's father had stayed home and monitored his punk drugie son's behavior and had him on restriction because of his school suspension this would have not have happened.... wonder why we haven't seen or heard from Trayvon's daddy's girl friend?

Doc44

Alizard
05-19-2012, 14:54
Highly biased opinion in that piece of trash report. How do they know that Zimmerman didn't intend to simply converse with Martin, identify himself as neighborhood watch and ask him what he was doing? There's no evidence that any such conversation took place, though. First contact appears to have been when Trayvon instigated a beating of Zimmerman.Exactly: the current media narrative which has always been peddled (without any support of evidence) is that Zimmerman went up to Martin and was belligerent and confrontational, starting the fight. Nobody even acknowledges the possibility that Martin (who may have been stoned on weed) went up to Zimm and got in his face because Zimm was following him.

CAcop
05-19-2012, 14:54
I'm really getting tired of this crap. Did Zimmerman approach Martin or did Martin approach Zimmerman? Pretty sure all the evidence is pointing to the latter. But regardless, who started the assault? Answer that question logically, and based on the evidence so far, and this case is over.

I honestly think they don't know for sure. I know of no witnesses that saw them make initial contact. The closest is an ear witness on the phone with Trayvon.

Realistically there are quite a few ways they may have made intial contact.

I really wish Trayvon was alive because then we would have his side of things. If we would have gotten even a basic statement before family or lawyers got involved we might have a better idea of what happened. Even if it was a bull**** story not supported by the evidence or witness statements we would have more than we have now.

Cavalry Doc
05-19-2012, 14:57
I'm really getting tired of this crap. Did Zimmerman approach Martin or did Martin approach Zimmerman? Pretty sure all the evidence is pointing to the latter. But regardless, who started the assault? Answer that question logically, and based on the evidence so far, and this case is over.

I'm pretty sure, only Zimmerman has offered a version of events that go along fairly close with, He lost sight of Martin, He got out to get an address, was on the way back to his vehicle when he was grabbed and spun around by Martin, Martin asked if he had a problem with him, Zimmerman said no, and Martin punched him in the nose, knocking him down, and then jumped on top of him continuing to assault him.

I think that's pretty close, but that is only one person's version of events, and that person has a stake in this.

Now, granted, if there are no conflicting statements, that is all the evidence there is.

I don't know that anyone else saw them meet, or saw the first punch, or saw when zimmerman drew his weapon.

countrygun
05-19-2012, 15:02
It was probably the report that was used to secure the warrant. Our reports for those puposes only can have officer's opinions in them. Typically it is a detective reviewing all of the reports and evidence collected and writing it up. The DA will often be consulted before writing this kind of report. It essentially bridges the gap between the more traditional, objective reports and the DA's filings in court.


And this explains the lubricated incline we are now on when police have gone beyond being trained observers, gatherers of the facts, keepers of the peace and enforcers of the law.

They are rapidly becoming iterpreters of the law beyond what used to be called "discression" and are now issuing judgements on the street.

Actually, what that officer said had no bearing whatsoever on a criminal matter but was more in line with testimony in a civil trial. And that does not belong in a police report by my training and experience. It merely leads to more, mostly unneccessary civil litigation and has nothing to do with the job of keeping the peace and enforcing the law. Sticking to that used to be the sign of professionalism.

CAcop
05-19-2012, 15:03
I'm really getting tired of this crap. Did Zimmerman approach Martin or did Martin approach Zimmerman? Pretty sure all the evidence is pointing to the latter. But regardless, who started the assault? Answer that question logically, and based on the evidence so far, and this case is over.

I honestly think they don't know for sure. I know of no witnesses that saw them make initial contact. The closest is an ear witness on the phone with Trayvon.

Realistically there are quite a few ways they may have made intial contact.

I really wish Trayvon was alive because then we would have his side of things. If we would have gotten even a basic statement before family or lawyers got involved we might have a better idea of what happened. Even if it was a bull**** story not supported by the evidence or witness statements we would have more than we have now.

stevelyn
05-20-2012, 02:03
I don't know what kind of Mickey Mouse academy or standards they have down in FL for their police officers, but we are forbidden from reaching any opinionated conclusion in our reports. We report facts-hopefully in a coherent manner- and then send it to the DA so he can make a decision based on what we present with the evidence at hand.

Every chief and supervisor I know would not accept a report written in such a manner. No wonder a lot of the DSMFs hired up here as officers need deprogramming.

eracer
05-20-2012, 04:07
Highly biased opinion in that piece of trash report. How do they know that Zimmerman didn't intend to simply converse with Martin, identify himself as neighborhood watch and ask him what he was doing? There's no evidence that any such conversation took place, though. First contact appears to have been when Trayvon instigated a beating of Zimmerman.

Bottom line: neighborhood watch has a right to exist. That neighborhood had been having burglary problems, perpetrated by black males. Zimmerman had a right to follow Trayvon, to observe his actions, and if he felt like it, to approach him and ask him if he belonged in the neighborhood. That is all completely legal and proper.

A suggestion "we don't need you to do that" (follow him) by a 911 dispatcher is not a binding order by any legal authority. Zimmerman would have been breaking no law if he had continued to follow Trayvon. Even so, the 911 tape seems to indicate that Zimmerman broke off his pursuit at that point anyway, and Martin circled back to attack HIM.

Thuglet Trayvon, on the other hand, did NOT have the right to attack Zimmerman for watching him, nor even for approaching him and asking him any questions (which the 911 tape shows no evidence of Zimmerman having done.) What the evidence seems to show is that Trayvon (complete with THC in his bloodstream indicating illegal drug use) took exception to a smaller lighter-skinned guy watching him, decided to feloniously assault him to register his displeasure, and got what he deserved when Zimmerman legally and properly defended himself with lethal force. There would be fewer violent crimes by predatory criminals if this happened a bit more often, frankly. You attack people, you get shot - period.

I think Zimmerman was totally justified. I hope he walks, and then sues numerous people and news organizations for millions.

You criticize speculation, yet you speculate.

Gunboat1
05-20-2012, 06:10
You criticize speculation, yet you speculate.

I'm not an officer of the law - I am free to do so, when they are not by any professional standard of performance.

I draw a logical conclusion from matching Zimmerman's testimony with the available evidence (which nicely matches his version of events), contrasting with the BS version trumpeted by Martin's family and supporters, aided by the MSM machine.

It's fairly obvious what most likely happened, based upon this information. I conclude that Zimmerman was justified.

DOC44
05-20-2012, 06:20
dey knows what really happened


http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Frederica-Wilson-500x306.jpg

Doc44

cowboywannabe
05-20-2012, 06:22
that does it. fewer blacks would die if there were no more guns for: jews, latinos, and democrats. Zimmerman sews up the deal as all three and you see what happened dontcha?

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 06:30
Back to the title of the thread, at some point, death was unavoidable. Sucks, but that's the way it goes.

TX expat
05-20-2012, 06:55
if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern

Seriously? How can anyone in their right mind allow the police department to actually put out any sort of "report" that is basically pure speculation. I guess they are trying to set up the Trevon Martin™ camp for a wrongful death suit since they realize criminal charges will most likely end up dismissed. Jessie and Al gotta get paid somehow...

If they are willing to speculate on that possible scenario changer, why not drop a few more in there:

"If TM had stayed at home", "If TM had not made the effort to appear like a 'street thug'", "If TM had simply retreated to a safe location and called police" or how about "If TM had not chosen to confront and assault GZ".

It's utterly ridiculous that they would put any statement that is absolutely nothing more than a one sided guess, into anything that they allow to be called 'official'. It cheapens and destroys any credibility that they have.

greenman19
05-20-2012, 07:37
The word "if" has no place in a police report.

RustyShackelford
05-20-2012, 08:25
If democrats weren't allowed to carry guns, Trayvon would still be alive.

Geez, I think Zimmerman has already been through quite a bit already having fought and fatally shot Trayvon, the upcoming trial and death threats that he doesn't need to be labeled a Democrat on top of everything else. lol

Not engaged in any criminal activity?

Drugs are legal in FL now? What?

Not sure if serious...

Ruble Noon
05-20-2012, 09:05
Geez, I think Zimmerman has already been through quite a bit already having fought and fatally shot Trayvon, the upcoming trial and death threats that he doesn't need to be labeled a Democrat on top of everything else. lol



Not sure if serious...

But he is a democrat.

HexHead
05-20-2012, 09:20
This report was put out by the Sanford PD like it was on purpose, for damage control and to try and defuse a possible full on chimp out in the area.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 10:35
It was probably the report that was used to secure the warrant. Our reports for those puposes only can have officer's opinions in them. Typically it is a detective reviewing all of the reports and evidence collected and writing it up. The DA will often be consulted before writing this kind of report. It essentially bridges the gap between the more traditional, objective reports and the DA's filings in court.


Even in a report requesting a warrant of arrest, or search, if we prepared it it was the DA who presented it and the officer who gathered the information, or who directed other officers to gather the information, did not put opinions or draw conclusions from the facts, that was the job of the DA. The officer who signed the report went before the Judge and attested that the FACTS in the report were "true and accurate to the best of his knowledge". How he could attest that his opinion of what would or wouldn't happen if someone did or didn't do something, was a "true fact" I don't know. Having said that, it WAS very common for the Judge to, verbally, ask an officer's OPINION based on his experience, but that was for the Judge's edification and not comitted to papers that would be made available to the defense and/or could be made public.

harrygunner
05-20-2012, 12:06
I'll bet if Zimmerman had a "do over", he would stay in the truck.

janice6
05-20-2012, 12:13
Yes, if guns were outlawed Trayvon would still be alive.


No thug would fear death if citizens were prevented from defending themselves.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 12:21
I'll bet if Zimmerman had a "do over", he would stay in the truck.


If I had a "do over" I wouldn't have married my first wife.

If I had a "do over" I would have had a coat in the car the day I got a flat tire when a rainstorm came up.



What's your point?

concretefuzzynuts
05-20-2012, 12:25
dey knows what really happened


http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Frederica-Wilson-500x306.jpg

Doc44

Is that Weezy Jefferson on the right, wearing blue?

countrygun
05-20-2012, 12:37
dey knows what really happened


http://weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Frederica-Wilson-500x306.jpg

Doc44


And that was an elected lawmaker demostrating her breadth of knowledge and showing people just who (what) they elected, and will probably reelect.

God help the Republic.

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 12:54
I'll bet if Zimmerman had a "do over", he would stay in the truck.

Agree, but that does not make him wrong for getting out of it. Once something happens, it's hard to go back in time and change it.

Getting out of the truck did not cause the shooting. There was a fight, and Martin was evidently on top of Zimmerman pounding away. Something shortly after the two of them became aware of each other prompted that fight, and that would be the root cause.

Did Zimmerman try to apprehend Martin? Did Martin get pissed he was being followed and decide to pummel the guy for it? Did they have angry words prior to physical contact? Who initiated physical contact? I don't know the answer to those questions with any degree of certainty.

harrygunner
05-20-2012, 13:19
It's hindsight, but as 'countrygun' implied about his ex-wife and coat, mistakes become clear. My point is, now it should be clear to Zimmerman where he went wrong.

He went wrong in a way that all my CCW training repeatedly underlines and emphasizes: we are not cops. Zimmerman was in no physical danger and the police were on the way.

In a hypothetical scenario, we'd all be chanting the standard quotes: "Don't go somewhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without one."; "Don't escalate a situation"; "CCW holders are held to a higher standard"; "We are not cops."; "Walk away from confrontation" and on and on.

In this case, for some reason, Zimmerman's folly is being supported.

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 13:33
It's hindsight, but as 'countrygun' implied about his ex-wife and coat, mistakes become clear. My point is, now it should be clear to Zimmerman where he went wrong.

He went wrong in a way that all my CCW training repeatedly underlines and emphasizes: we are not cops. Zimmerman was in no physical danger and the police were on the way.

In a hypothetical scenario, we'd all be chanting the standard quotes: "Don't go somewhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without one."; "Don't escalate a situation"; "CCW holders are held to a higher standard"; "We are not cops."; "Walk away from confrontation" and on and on.

In this case, for some reason, Zimmerman's folly is being supported.

I could hypothetically imagine a scenario where Zimmerman see's Martin coming toward him, draws his gun, and says, "not one more step buddy, head on home while you still can", and he does. The possibilities are almost infinite.

If I had all the details, I could offer an opinion on where one or both of them missed opportunities to avoid this. What happened, happened. If the truth is ever fully and reliably known, then pointing to mistakes might make sense. Right now, there are still some very crucial missing details as far as I know.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 13:36
It's hindsight, but as 'countrygun' implied about his ex-wife and coat, mistakes become clear. My point is, now it should be clear to Zimmerman where he went wrong.

He went wrong in a way that all my CCW training repeatedly underlines and emphasizes: we are not cops. Zimmerman was in no physical danger and the police were on the way.

In a hypothetical scenario, we'd all be chanting the standard quotes: "Don't go somewhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without one."; "Don't escalate a situation"; "CCW holders are held to a higher standard"; "We are not cops."; "Walk away from confrontation" and on and on.

In this case, for some reason, Zimmerman's folly is being supported.

That line of thinking bugs the beejeebers out of me on a number of levels.

It implies that "If you feel safe somewhere, you don't need to bring a gun at all ergo you don't need to carry"

There are places, when I lived in the big city, that I had to go, and wnet armed out of common sense. Being armed allowed me to go into those places with a degree of safety.

That phrase, is the mouthings of the smugs and self-righteous to me. The kind of people who look at a situation after it's over and say "Well, I wouldn't have done THAT"

I do smile when I think of the unpredictable nature of life, and know that if those smug folks fins themselves "taking their turn in the barrel" there will be folks,just like them, pointing at them saying "Well, I wouldn't have done THAT"

harrygunner
05-20-2012, 13:39
If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, all the "infinite" possibilities reduce to one: Martin lives and Zimmerman's life would not be trashed.

harrygunner
05-20-2012, 13:49
'countrygun' I'll explain "Don't go somewhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without one." for you. It addresses the bravo some might feel just because they are armed. It has nothing to do with your concerns. Instead it's sage advice, one of the three "Stupid" rules: "Don't go to stupid places, do stupid things or hang with stupid people". Some people think a gun is a magic talisman and go to stupid places.

In the Zimmerman case, would he have approached a stranger if he wasn't armed? Would he have waited for the police instead?

Any responsible CCW holder has plenty of information to have the foresight to avoid the mistake Zimmerman is learning about in hindsight.

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 13:56
If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, all the "infinite" possibilities reduce to one: Martin lives and Zimmerman's life would not be trashed.

Zimmerman could have left, and been in the wrong place as a full dump truck ran a red light and killed him.

That's the thing about possibilities, there are so darn many of them. We could speculate almost infinitely on what could have happened if he AND Martin had made different choices that day, and/or days weeks and months before. What if Z had never purchased a gun? Would that have made things better or worse??? No way to really be sure. It would require one to resort to speculation in order to state an opinion on that.

What happened happened. Too late to change any of it. One or both may have done something against the rules. That is now going to get hashed out in court. I hope the outcome is just and proper.

Brucev
05-20-2012, 14:00
No thug would fear death if citizens were prevented from defending themselves.

A BMW carrying candy and a drink is just a BMW carrying candy and a drink. The thugs are the ones who go around killing innocent people.

Brucev
05-20-2012, 14:03
If Zimmerman had stayed in his truck, all the "infinite" possibilities reduce to one: Martin lives and Zimmerman's life would not be trashed.

Bingo! He hits it right out of the park. Perfect. No trying to weasel around reality. Just confront it head on. The shooter stays in his car... he doesn't end up the shooter, and a innocent man does not end up getting shot and killed by a faux-cop.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 14:04
'countrygun' I'll explain "Don't go somewhere with a gun that you wouldn't go without one." for you. It addresses the bravo some might feel just because they are armed. It has nothing to do with your concerns. Instead it's sage advice, one of the there "Stupid" rules: "Don't go to stupid places, do stupid things or hang with stupid people". Some people think a gun is a magic talisman and go to stupid places.

In the Zimmerman case, would he have approached a stranger if he wasn't armed? Would he have waited for the police instead?

Any responsible CCW holder has plenty of information to have the foresight to avoid the mistake Zimmerman is learning about in hindsight.

Let me explain to you that there were times in my business I had to go into neighborhoods that were crime ridden, I might have gone in to another business, but that wasn't in the cards.

I have seen folks of the type you are portraying. They like to tell themselves they are "special" or part of an "Elite" and have "Different rules" that is a form of self amusement at best. The permit does not make you anything "special". You carry a gun? Big deal so do half the thugs in the world. You have a tool that is capable of inflicting death? Big deal so does every sixteen-year-old behinnd the wheel of a car. That little card doesn't make you any more "special" that the sticker in your car window proclaiming you are a fan of a certain football team. You are just another tool bearing animal with another tool in your kit. Guns are not mythical instruments that convey great power. The power and capability of a man is measured by what is between his ears not on his hip.

Going about everyday life isn't "bravo". Setting yourself up to think you are "different" form others and have to live by different rules is a sign of elitism, un earned elitism at that.

M1AG30
05-20-2012, 14:12
No matter what your opinion is now.... this was avoidable as the OP posted.... no matter the circumstances that provoked or induced the ultimate outcome.... Had Zimmerman done his job as a neighborhood WATCH and notified the POLICE who have the RIGHT and AUTORITY to question individuals.... none of this would ever have happened! It is and Undeniable fact!

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 14:17
A BMW carrying candy and a drink is just a BMW carrying candy and a drink. The thugs are the ones who go around killing innocent people.

The thing is, you don't really know if one or both are guilty or innocent. You have chosen to believe what you believe. It does show a certain bias though. Illustrative. :wavey:

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 14:18
Bingo! He hits it right out of the park. Perfect. No trying to weasel around reality. Just confront it head on. The shooter stays in his car... he doesn't end up the shooter, and a innocent man does not end up getting shot and killed by a faux-cop.

Again, how do you know he was innocent? You don't. Neither do I.


How do you define innocent by the way? Seems he was a youth that found his way into trouble more than once.

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 14:20
No matter what your opinion is now.... this was avoidable as the OP posted.... no matter the circumstances that provoked or induced the ultimate outcome.... Had Zimmerman done his job as a neighborhood WATCH and notified the POLICE who have the RIGHT and AUTORITY to question individuals.... none of this would ever have happened! It is and Undeniable fact!

Do you know if Zimmerman approached or questioned Martin?



This thread is full of contrarian trolls. Short on facts, long on opinion. Humorous.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 14:21
Bingo! He hits it right out of the park. Perfect. No trying to weasel around reality. Just confront it head on. The shooter stays in his car... he doesn't end up the shooter, and a innocent man does not end up getting shot and killed by a faux-cop.


What you are trying to do is blame the victim of an assault for being on the spot where the assault occurred.

If Martin had come up to the car and broken the window and assaulted Zimmerman you could just as well blame Zimmerman for not having driven away. It is all a continuum and to say in hindsight and not being there, "THIS, in my perfect judgement, is where he should have stopped" is merely a form of internet self-gratification.

Fred Hansen
05-20-2012, 14:23
A BMW carrying candy and a drink is just a BMW carrying candy and a drink. The thugs are the ones who go around killing innocent people.http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gfXupHOEhH0/S-xf_MvKzOI/AAAAAAAAREk/GYu196dF4e0/s1600/BMW+S1000RR+Girl.jpg

Cup holder must be on the far side.

harrygunner
05-20-2012, 14:38
'countrygun' Your work requires you to go to certain places. You'd have to go there whether you had a gun or not. I didn't post that to address you and your life.

Like you, I live my life and a gun, watch, wallet, pants, etc. come with me.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 14:44
'countrygun' Your work requires you to go to certain places. You'd have to go there whether you had a gun or not. I didn't post that to address you and your life.

Like you, I live my life and a gun, watch, wallet, pants, etc. come with me.


Not that it's about me at all. but I was a contractor at the time and I suppose I could have descriminated against people because they lived in "the wrong neighborhood" but I just didn't think that was right.

Ruble Noon
05-20-2012, 15:11
Do you know if Zimmerman approached or questioned Martin?



This thread is full of contrarian trolls. Short on facts, long on opinion. Humorous.

Seems like a lot of people are offering their opinions up as facts. Reading this thread makes a guy wonder if Zimmerman wouldn't be better off going in front of a judge instead of a jury if in fact he does go to trial.

Naelbis
05-20-2012, 15:16
"Avoidable" is not a proper basis for prosecution. Every death that is not of natural causes is avoidable on some level, might as well put everyone in jail.

Cavalry Doc
05-20-2012, 15:35
Seems like a lot of people are offering their opinions up as facts. Reading this thread makes a guy wonder if Zimmerman wouldn't be better off going in front of a judge instead of a jury if in fact he does go to trial.

Is that a choice in Florida?

I don't know. 50/50 chance with only one person. You only need 1/12 to hang a jury.

Lot's of people are very solidly decided about who is at fault, and it's funny to see the holes in the story Spackled with their imagination and bias.

Gunnut 45/454
05-20-2012, 15:53
Yep totally aviodable_ Trayvon should have kept walking to Daddy's house! But being a thug he thought it would be fun to go beat up on the white guy! Oppose! He got shot nobodies fault but his own!:steamed:

countrygun
05-20-2012, 16:05
Yep totally aviodable_ Trayvon should have kept walking to Daddy's house! But being a thug he thought it would be fun to go beat up on the white guy! Oppose! He got shot nobodies fault but his own!:steamed:


Oh, no, you don't "understand". Trayvon was a young Black man. We don't try and make him responsible for anything. He can't be held responsible for HIS choices. It is the guy with the lighter skin that was described as "White" who was obviously the responsible party because well...Trayvon was.....well... 'You Know"

Fred Hansen
05-20-2012, 16:28
Stay in school kiddies! Don't end up like T-Ray.

coastal4974
05-20-2012, 16:38
If the Martin didn't attack Zimmerman he wouldn't have been shot, so I guess his death was avoidable. We can say that about any individual who end up dead while commiting a crime.

cowboywannabe
05-20-2012, 19:28
if Trayvon would not have attacked Zimmerman he'd still be alive.

if Trayvon had called the police with his government cell phone instead of attacking Zimmerman he'd still be alive.

if Trayvon had not been in possession of buglary tools in school he'd still be in school or at his own home instead of attacking Zimmerman.

if Trayvon hadnt smoked dope and use poor judgement by attacking Zimmerman he'd still be alive.

if if if. if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

cowboywannabe
05-20-2012, 19:32
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gfXupHOEhH0/S-xf_MvKzOI/AAAAAAAAREk/GYu196dF4e0/s1600/BMW+S1000RR+Girl.jpg

Cup holder must be on the far side.

i gotcha! and i agree.

Brucev
05-20-2012, 20:30
What you are trying to do is blame the victim of an assault for being on the spot where the assault occurred.

If Martin had come up to the car and broken the window and assaulted Zimmerman you could just as well blame Zimmerman for not having driven away. It is all a continuum and to say in hindsight and not being there, "THIS, in my perfect judgement, is where he should have stopped" is merely a form of internet self-gratification.

The only victim in this incident is dead. The killer is alive because he shot and killed a unarmed man. If the killer had not stalked the man and then gotten out of his car and went after the man, the killer would not now be facing murder charges. It is just that simple.

countrygun
05-20-2012, 20:53
The only victim in this incident is dead. The killer is alive because he shot and killed a unarmed man. If the killer had not stalked the man and then gotten out of his car and went after the man, the killer would not now be facing murder charges. It is just that simple.


Oh, it's you.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/likeadog.png


Didn't recognize you without the hat.

Cavalry Doc
05-21-2012, 04:38
The only victim in this incident is dead. The killer is alive because he shot and killed a unarmed man. If the killer had not stalked the man and then gotten out of his car and went after the man, the killer would not now be facing murder charges. It is just that simple.

So, what's the plan here? So far, you show up, spout far left inflammatory rhetorhic and bypass questions.

It's been pointed out repeatedly that your opinion is based on your own imagined details filling in the gaps of the story.

Your minds made up on the case. Good for you. But I've seen your kind of behavior before, and I know what you're up to. Dermatobia Hominis. Once identified, not that effective.

TX expat
05-21-2012, 08:02
So, what's the plan here? So far, you show up, spout far left inflammatory rhetorhic and bypass questions.

It's been pointed out repeatedly that your opinion is based on your own imagined details filling in the gaps of the story.

Your minds made up on the case. Good for you. But I've seen your kind of behavior before, and I know what you're up to. Dermatobia Hominis. Once identified, not that effective.

http://clouddragon.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/troll.jpg?w=510

The troll needs no plan!

ModGlock17
05-21-2012, 08:02
Oh, it's you.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/likeadog.png


Didn't recognize you without the hat.

LOL

LOL

You're good!

You can have a hundred MLK speeches and holidays, but people are still not free. They are slaves to their perception of their skin color. They put fences around themselves. Freedom begins between the ears and in the heart.

marchboom
05-21-2012, 17:36
The Sanford PD was completely out of line to put their OPINION in their report. Police reports are made to document facts, not opinion. Let the courts deal with opinions.

This dept should be preparing for the upcoming "civil unrest" that will occur when this case is thrown out or Zimmerman is found not guilty.

Note: The only time an officer may state his opinion in a police report is when writing a DUI arrest report. He may then document his opinion as to the driver's intoxication.

Flintlocker
05-21-2012, 18:31
Tough guys take note. If you get chased in the dark by a hispanic male then the only thing you can do is run away. If you do anything else then you deserve to be shot and killed.

countrygun
05-21-2012, 18:52
Tough guys take note. If you get chased in the dark by a hispanic male then the only thing you can do is run away. If you do anything else then you deserve to be shot and killed.


Is there somereason you chose to single out the Hispanic race?

Latent racism in the snark there?

Flintlocker
05-21-2012, 19:09
Is there somereason you chose to single out the Hispanic race?

Latent racism in the snark there?

You've got to be kidding me. For all the hay that's been made about Zimmerman's race on this forum, this is the time to take exception to it? *facepalm*

countrygun
05-21-2012, 19:18
You've got to be kidding me. For all the hay that's been made about Zimmerman's race on this forum, this is the time to take exception to it? *facepalm*


You never noticed that the mention of Zimmerman's "race" was in response to all of the knee-jerk claims of "racial motivation" because Martin was Black?

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/doublefacepalm.png

Arc Angel
05-21-2012, 19:39
What! A police report that is biased? Say it ain't so Martha! First one to call the COPS wins!

:upeyes: Is it just me or is this starting to look like a lynching? In my considered opinion the problem really began when George Zimmerman decided to become an unpaid, (and equally unendorsed) 'neighborhood watch captain'.

We could also use a, 'watch captain' around here in our neighborhood too. The only problem is finding someone stupid enough to actually take the job. If we're going to deal in farfetched probabilities, I also have no doubt that Trayvon Martin would still be alive today if he'd had either the good fortune or common sense to stay in bed on February 26th.

Yesterday, after listening to Trayvon's former girlfriend's most recent blow-by-blow account of what happened that night, I realized that it's really starting to get deep for Zimmerman. Hope he's got a good lawyer, cause otherwise .......

Flintlocker
05-21-2012, 19:44
You never noticed that the mention of Zimmerman's "race" was in response to all of the knee-jerk claims of "racial motivation" because Martin was Black?


You're right. If anybody chases you in to the dark, whether they be white, black, asian, middle eastern or hispanic, your only is option is to run away. If you do anything else then you deserve to be shot and killed.

Cavalry Doc
05-21-2012, 19:54
Tough guys take note. If you get chased in the dark by a hispanic male then the only thing you can do is run away. If you do anything else then you deserve to be shot and killed.

Had to give Brucev a break??


http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p158/CavalryDoc/vent.jpg
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p158/CavalryDoc/rofllarge.gif

Cavalry Doc
05-21-2012, 19:58
You never noticed that the mention of Zimmerman's "race" was in response to all of the knee-jerk claims of "racial motivation" because Martin was Black?

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee518/CountryG/doublefacepalm.png

gah....ZING!!

Flintlocker
05-21-2012, 20:21
Had to give Brucev a break??


http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p158/CavalryDoc/vent.jpg


Sweet, I knew there was a photo out there of the 2011 GTPI Conference/Circlejerk. You guys look so cute together.

Cavalry Doc
05-22-2012, 03:52
Sweet, I knew there was a photo out there of the 2011 GTPI Conference/Circlejerk. You guys look so cute together.

Caught, and trying to get the thread closed with sexual references. That's my gurl alright.

DOC44
05-22-2012, 06:58
Caught, and trying to get the thread closed with sexual references. That's my gurl alright.

She/It has tried that at least 1200 times.:wavey:

Doc44

Flintlocker
05-22-2012, 08:58
Caught, and trying to get the thread closed with sexual references. That's my gurl alright.

Your girl calls you a circlejerker too? Don't tell me she calls you a paranoid fool as well...

Cavalry Doc
05-22-2012, 09:02
Your girl calls you a circlejerker too? Don't tell me she calls you a paranoid fool as well...

Awww. Don't go away mad.....

Flintlocker
05-22-2012, 09:12
Awww. Don't go away mad.....

Projecting again?

Your paranoid fantasies are your own and don't bother me except to the degree that what you're doing is tantamount to calling me a liar every time you accuse me of being someone I'm not. But whatever, you seem fixated on your delusion.

Cavalry Doc
05-22-2012, 09:27
Projecting again?

Your paranoid fantasies are your own and don't bother me except to the degree that what you're doing is tantamount to calling me a liar every time you accuse me of being someone I'm not. But whatever, you seem fixated on your delusion.

I'm ok with it. You just keep being you, Mmkay?

Gunboat1
05-22-2012, 10:00
Ah....Winnie the Troll returns yet again. Pathetic.

Fred Hansen
05-23-2012, 00:04
She/It has tried that at least 1200 times.:wavey:

Doc44http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=225376&stc=1&d=1337753038