I had a AD yesterday evening. [Archive] - Glock Talk

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blastfact
05-20-2012, 10:39
I went to the range yesterday. Had a great day shooting my new M&P 9mm and working with my new Super Tuck and Serpa holsters. Put 500 rounds through the pistol with no issues at all. I only took the M&P 9mm and it's holsters. I wanted to practice and drill with only it. A full focus range session so to speak on one weapon and two holster systems. Using my own reloads, being the ammo I will carry in this pistol. I was running 124gn XTP's over 5.9gn of Power Pistol, Fed primers with new Winchester brass I got for dirt cheap.

I got home and the wife and I decided to go to a local street Art Festival and enjoy some street food and people watching. I told the wife. "let me clean up the M&P 9mm real quick" Then I changed my mind about cleaning it up. I told her "never mind it's been running great, it should be fine". I'll load it up and we will be off.

I put one round in a empty mag to chamber one and BANG she went off.

My view from my desk.
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/ad1.jpg

The pistol fired and locked the slide back. I dropped the mag and rolled the pistol over to inspect. And found the striker poking out the breech. I was then so thankful that I had not loaded a full mag. That could have been ugly. Real Ugly!!!

The round went through my monitor, inner window trim, king studs, outer window trim and lodged in one of my pecan trees 6' outside my window about 20' off the ground.

Once I had figured out the trajectory of the bullet and it was proven secure. I detail stripped the pistol. Focusing hard on the striker and striker channel I found very heavy brass shavings packed in the striker channel. I then went through the new brass I shot and inspected each piece. I found a extractor wear mark on almost all of it. I then pulled the extractor and sure enough it had a burr that matched the mark on the brass. The little burr cleaned right up. I refitted it and took the pistol to the range early this morning. It did great. Came home and striped it back down. No big brass flakes in the striker channel and no marks on the 100 rounds of brass I fired this am.

Now that the pistol is fixed and the malfunction understood. I have to fix myself. I have always chambered and dry fired my weapons in this room at my desk with them pointed at the floor or my wrist on the edge of the desk surface with the pistol pointed just like it was with this AD. No more desk top loading or dry firing! Yeah the monitor, house frame, trim and tree did there job. I didn't do mine. From now on the weapon will always be pointed at the floor. With a crawl space, dirt and foundation stone to stop the bullet.

In slightly over 40 years of shooting and handling guns. This is my first AD and I hope my last. I really freaked the wife out big time. I'm ok and nobody else was hurt or even close to being hurt. My ears and eye's are fine. I think I will leave the bullet hole in the trim to remind me of my mistake.

Be careful folks.

El_Ron1
05-20-2012, 10:49
A grim reminder. :beer:

bac1023
05-20-2012, 10:52
:wow:

Glad you're OK

Highspeedlane
05-20-2012, 10:53
Wow.

Glad everything worked out though.

WiskyT
05-20-2012, 11:06
A grim reminder. :beer:

:rofl:

FL Airedale
05-20-2012, 11:09
I'm glad no one was hurt.

aircarver
05-20-2012, 11:09
Sand Bucket.

.

faawrenchbndr
05-20-2012, 11:09
That would be a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE!

Could have ended much worse,.......:faint:

aircarver
05-20-2012, 11:12
No it was accidental cuz the gun caused it, tho he should have been pointed at something he didn't care if he destroyed, and should have caught the brass chips earlier than he did.

.

Just1More
05-20-2012, 12:15
I'd never carry an M&P. I've heard too many stories about them going off all by themselves.

carloglock19
05-20-2012, 12:32
I have to do some research on the M&P, I didn't realize there was a problem with them firing on their own. I own one and would hate to have an AD/ND with it even when practicing proper gun safety and handling. Glad no one was hurt things could have been worse. If there is a problem with them firing on their own then out the door the M&P might go (I hate selling my guns though).

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Sechott
05-20-2012, 12:39
I'm not familiar with the M&Ps, but I am wondering how can brass filings from the extractor get into striker channel? Also, if the starker was protruding wouldn't keep a round from clambering? I hope my buddy takes his to range today and I will check his out. I am not doubting you, just curious. Glad to hear no one was hurt. I would call S&W and let them know what happened, if there are others with similar issues they will need to do a recall.

carloglock19
05-20-2012, 12:47
OP let us know what S&W says when you call them (if you do). I don't like they idea of having a firearm that will fire on its own. I will do research this evening and see if there are more cases of this happening. I keep mine loaded and ready at all times (not my CCW though) and would hate for it to go off like that or if Im handling/reloading after cleaning or range session.

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deputy tom
05-20-2012, 12:51
I'm glad no one was hurt.

^^ This. tom.:wow:

rilkil23
05-20-2012, 12:55
Thanks for sharing.


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TN.Frank
05-20-2012, 13:14
Wow, glad no one got hurt, property can be replaced. I'd for sure call up S&W and let them know what happened. Something just wasn't fit right from the factory for it to shave off brass like that and lock up the striker so it'd cause a discharge when you dropped the slide.
The way I am about stuff I'd probably send the gun back to S&W to have it replaced/repaired then sell it and buy something else. I'm real bad about not trusting something once I have one go bad on me.
If you do keep the gun I'd be cleaning out the striker channel on a regular basis so this would not happen again. Still, like I said, I don't know if I could ever trust that gun again.

ColdSteelNail
05-20-2012, 13:20
Thanks for reminding me that one can't be too careful.

AA#5
05-20-2012, 13:28
I have to do some research on the M&P, I didn't realize there was a problem with them firing on their own. I own one and would hate to have an AD/ND with it even when practicing proper gun safety and handling. Glad no one was hurt things could have been worse. If there is a problem with them firing on their own then out the door the M&P might go (I hate selling my guns though).

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Well, the OP explained that the FP was stuck in the forward position due to brass shavings wedged in the FP channel. Any gun would slam fire in that situation. However, if the burr on the extractor was causing the brass shavings, it would be S&W's fault for sloppy quality control. It's also possible the opening around the FP was too large, creating free space for brass & fouling to enter.

Wyoming
05-20-2012, 13:31
Glad you are OK.

Sorry about the monitor. Everything else easy fix. Fortunately pecan tree was planted in a good place.

Bruce M
05-20-2012, 13:32
Glad to hear it wasn't worse.

ReyFufuRulesAll
05-20-2012, 13:35
Thanks for reminding me that one can't be too careful.

^this. :wow:

TN.Frank
05-20-2012, 13:49
However, if the burr on the extractor was causing the brass shavings, it would be S&W's fault for sloppy quality control. It's also possible the opening around the FP was too large, creating free space for brass & fouling to enter.

Ditto, I'd still not trust this gun again, I'm just funny that way. I don't know how "in love" you are with your M&P but I'd have it fixed then sell/trade it for something else like a Glock, XD, Sig or an H&K(if funds allow). You just can't be 100% sure now that it'll not happen again, even after you get it fixed.

Nakanokalronin
05-20-2012, 14:05
Glad your okay OP. Lesson learned about pointing the gun in a safe direction.

This is one of the reasons I always clean a pistol after a range session. You get to clean and re-lube while looking for something that may become a future problem like a crack in a part or odd wear mark. I'll usually go further by detail cleaning the gun as well depending how much I've shot it that day. Some may say it's excessive but it let's you see everything in the frame and slide.

As a side note,I've had brass like shavings from certain brands of FMJ ammo in different guns. Keep in mind that you loaded your own ammo which is something S&W will take into consideration if you decide to send the gun in or call them about the burr.

blastfact
05-20-2012, 14:08
Well,,,, I won't be calling Smith or sending the pistol in. It's fixed and I do have a new spare extractor if this one gives me anymore issues. Heck I have spare extractors for all my weapons. How the extractor got the burr I haven't a clue. It's a simple mechanical part that can take a beating at times.

The striker and hole are fine and fit up very well. The pistol has had of today 2600 rounds through it 200 retail brass, 100 retail steel case, 2300 of my reloads. It had a detail strip and full inspection before I took it to the range for the first time, after purchase. And one other 1k rounds ago to see how it was wearing in. All looked good. The 100 Herter's Steel was the last thing shot in it before the last 500 round range trip.

The thing that tugs at my core is: Just a few days ago I was going through the manual that came with the pistol. And right there in the manual is a warning about a protruding firing pin. With a picture on page 13. I've never had a slam fire with any weapon. When I saw that warning it was a good reminder. And I heeded the warning yesterday when I was at the range going through the 500 rounds shot yesterday. I didn't heed the warning in whole at home of all places. :( I did intend to carry the pistol last night with only one mag and 17+1. Instead of loading a full mag in the pistol, chambering a round then dropping the mag and topping off. I had started night before last to load one round in a otherwise empty mag. Chamber that round and then put a full mag in to avoid a run away fire event in the event of a stuck striker. My failing was not looking at the breech face before I chambered that darn round. My fault!

TSAX
05-20-2012, 14:26
Glad no one was hurt, do you have to report that to your local pd/sheriffs office :dunno:








:50cal:

BBSRQ
05-20-2012, 14:28
Geez...this shows me I still have a helluva lot to learn before I'm as safe as I think I am. Thanks for the post...it taught me something that could save a life one day.

blastfact
05-20-2012, 14:39
Glad no one was hurt, do you have to report that to your local pd/sheriffs office :dunno:
:50cal:

TSA: Since I have been able to account for the bullet. I'm not going to report it. And it has not caught anybody's attention. So I'm not going to report it.

glock2740
05-20-2012, 14:52
That would be a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE!

This is correct, as there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Glad no one was hurt.

Foxtrotx1
05-20-2012, 17:03
I think you pulled the trigger.

Flame suite on.

WiskyT
05-20-2012, 17:21
I think you pulled the trigger.

Flame suite on.

Me too. I don't see how the FP could potrude since it catches on what would be called the "cruciform" on a Glock pistol. Then you add in all that dicking around with loading it and unloading it etc and it seems like a bit of a stretch.

ETA: As far as I can tell it's called a sear on an M&P

VictorLouis
05-20-2012, 17:47
This is correct, as there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Glad no one was hurt.


B.S., that WAS an A/D, pure and simple.:shocked: Yeah, you can chastize the poor chap about muzzle discipline and Rule-2 if you'd like. :whistling:

However, I'm just glad all's good and he's got a handle on the cause of it.

PlasticGuy
05-20-2012, 19:52
Thanks for sharing. This is a good reminder for all of us.

Foxtrotx1
05-20-2012, 20:03
Glad to see everyone is so gullible.

Wurger
05-20-2012, 20:06
This is correct, as there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Glad no one was hurt.

This always drives me nuts.

By your definition there is never a car accident.

I get to see the results of accidents every day in the OR. MVA's (Motor Vehicle Accidents), Chain saw accidents. Table saw accidents. ATV accidents. Farm accidents........

Please read a dictionary once in a while and don't just go on feelings or what the latest gun guru says.

Accidental Discharges are often negligent in nature but they are still 'unexpected/undesigned'.

From Websters:

Acīci`dent

n.1.Literally (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/Literally), a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) befalling (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/befalling); an (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/an) event (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/event) that (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/that) takes (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/takes) place (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/place) without (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/without) one (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/one)'s (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/s) foresight (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/foresight) or (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/or) expectation (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/expectation); an (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/an) undesigned (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/undesigned), sudden (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/sudden), and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) unexpected (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/unexpected) event (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/event); chance (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/chance); contingency (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/contingency); often (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/often), an (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/an) undesigned (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/undesigned) and (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/and) unforeseen (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/unforeseen) occurrence (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/occurrence) of (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/of) an (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/an) afflictive (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/afflictive) or (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/or) unfortunate (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/unfortunate) character (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/character); a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) casualty (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/casualty); a (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/a) mishap (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/mishap); as (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/as), to (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/to) die (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/die) by (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/by) an (http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/an) accident.

hoghunter82
05-20-2012, 20:11
Thanks for sharing. Most would never mention a word of it, so I for one appreciate your post.


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Bro KV
05-20-2012, 20:17
Doesn't make sense to me. I would not trust it to be carried if that's what happened.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-20-2012, 20:59
Good post OP. Glad it ended ok.

Berto
05-20-2012, 21:21
I had a Glock 21 slam fire for the same reason at a range.
Glad nobody was hurt.

Metal Angel
05-20-2012, 21:39
Accidents happen because of negligence. So N/D and A/D are different names for the same thing. Sometimes it is such a small amount of negligence that you can hardly blame the guy, which seems to be the case here. Had he been super OCD about his gun, he may have noticed the burr before it caused a problem, but who can blame him for not noticing it?

The direction of the bullet on the other hand, well, cheap lesson. Not saying I am above ever pointing the gun where it shouldn't be pointed, but I would still consider that a significant amount of negligence.

Glad you didn't have the mag loaded... That thing would have been a bullet hose.

Did you pull the trigger like some have suggested? I, for one, doubt it. Sound like you have a lot of experience with guns- and even with my limited experience, I have no trouble keeping my finger off the trigger, even when I am dicking around loading it up. That said, I don't top off because it adds steps that have to be done after your gun is hot. I jack a round in and slip it straight into my holster. No extra actions once the gun's mode has been switched over to dangerous.

cowboy1964
05-20-2012, 21:47
I'd never carry an M&P. I've heard too many stories about them going off all by themselves.

Hmm. I've heard far more horror stories about Glocks. This is the first I've heard of an M&P doing it.

maverick9614
05-20-2012, 22:18
Accidents happen because of negligence. So N/D and A/D are different names for the same thing. Sometimes it is such a small amount of negligence that you can hardly blame the guy, which seems to be the case here. Had he been super OCD about his gun, he may have noticed the burr before it caused a problem, but who can blame him for not noticing it?

The direction of the bullet on the other hand, well, cheap lesson. Not saying I am above ever pointing the gun where it shouldn't be pointed, but I would still consider that a significant amount of negligence.

Glad you didn't have the mag loaded... That thing would have been a bullet hose.


I'd have to disagree. Bad design on another person's fault shouldn't be put on the shoulders of the end user. I feel one of the major drawbacks of the striker fired design is a lack of return spring for the striker. This may have prevented the AD if the channel hadn't been too clogged.

As for the OP, glad no one was hurt. I have had the exact same AD with a Glock 22. Thankfully, all I shot was the corner of my suitcase and one of my in-law's floorboards.

I have since been able to replicate the AD and know I need a new frame.

CBennett
05-20-2012, 22:24
That would be a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE!

Could have ended much worse,.......:faint:

meh, 99% of the time I agree but this time it was one of those 1% times when this WOULD have happened next time a round got chambered no matter what ....Essentially this time it was a gun malfunction not user error...that gun as it was was going off next time a round chambered due to a GUN malfunction..luckily no one was hurt ..this wasn't user error it was a true and rare ACCIDENTAL discharge caused by a GUN malfunction not the user....:shocked:

CBennett
05-20-2012, 22:26
Sand Bucket.

.

true, but then it would have STILL been a weapons related discharge into a clearing barrel/can.

CBennett
05-20-2012, 22:33
This is correct, as there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Glad no one was hurt.

100% DISAGREE there is VERY seldom a true AD they are almost always ND's UNLESS its a faulty gun/gun part..in this case that's just what it was..the USER didn't make the gun discharge the gun having a faulty/broken part in this case did.

Folsom_Prison
05-20-2012, 23:03
Glad nobody was hurt OP!

Caver 60
05-20-2012, 23:06
I think I'll save this thread for the next time I see someone posting that if they thought they would ever have a ND/AD they never would carry a pistol again. And I've seen post like that around here before.

It does happen. It can happen to anyone.

Keep that muzzle pointed in a safe direction, as has already been said.

unit1069
05-20-2012, 23:07
I had a AD yesterday evening.

As time passes and I read these personal confessions the less I handle my firearms.

I'm at the point where I am perfectly comfortable in handling them and I fear that's the real danger. Something like this always happens to the other guy, eh?

I'm glad to read nobody was injured in the event, OP.

Metal Angel
05-20-2012, 23:58
I think I'll save this thread for the next time I see someone posting that if they thought they would ever have a ND/AD they never would carry a pistol again. And I've seen post like that around here before.

It does happen. It can happen to anyone.

Keep that muzzle pointed in a safe direction, as has already been said.

Yup. I almost expect to have one sometime. I hope I never do because I swear I will crap my pants if I do, but I do my very best to make sure if I ever do have an N/A/D, the crapstreak down the back of my pants will be the worst of the damage.

Cole125
05-21-2012, 00:05
Lesson to be learned here: ALWAYS keep a gun pointed in a VERY safe direction when chambering a round. No excuses.


OP, glad your okay, could have been worse.

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 03:34
Could someone please address the fact that the firing pin has to be caught by the sear? Basically, what the OP says happened is virtually impossible. Even if it did happen the way he said it did, there would have to be a significant defect in the tail of the FP or the sear, which means it can happen again.

If you superglued the FP in the forward position, the gun can't slam fire.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-21-2012, 04:30
I feel one of the major drawbacks of the striker fired design is a lack of return spring for the striker.

Interesting point.

checkyoursix
05-21-2012, 05:36
I have a strict routine for dry firing, which involves having no ammo anywhere around, and an old unique looking metal tin around which works as a 'everything is clear, good to go' sign. No tin out, no dry fire.

I was at a friend once who laughed at the idea of the tin. He told me he dry fired all time never had an issue. Once I went to his place, and his brand new TV was gone. He blushed, told me he had shot it. Classic episode of dry firing for a while, slamming a magazine back in, then deciding to go back to dry firing.


The best part is that he described it as an 'accident' to other friends. Priceless.

eracer
05-21-2012, 05:43
A violation of any of the Four Rules of Gun Safety is negligent.

Hope that clears it up.

Rally Vincent
05-21-2012, 05:54
This is correct, as there is no such thing as an "accidental discharge". Glad no one was hurt.

Watched a guy chamber a round in his M16-A4, went off as soon as the bolt drove the round into the chamber. His finger was no where near the trigger, and would not have been. It was a mechanical failure. AD. Not due to negligence.

H&K 4 LIFE
05-21-2012, 09:40
If the unintentional discharge happened exactly as you stated and that were my gun, it'd be going right back to S&W ASAP for a full inspection. It also might not remain as being my gun for very long thereafter either.

M&P15T
05-21-2012, 09:52
Shoot enough and be around firearms enough in your lifetime, you will have an AD/ND.

I had one, a few years back, and hopefully that's it for me.

Glad to hear everything is OK OP.

Keyhole
05-21-2012, 10:04
Well, the OP explained that the FP was stuck in the forward position due to brass shavings wedged in the FP channel. Any gun would slam fire in that situation. However, if the burr on the extractor was causing the brass shavings, it would be S&W's fault for sloppy quality control. It's also possible the opening around the FP was too large, creating free space for brass & fouling to enter.

+1. Exactly!

ChicagoZman
05-21-2012, 10:20
Still trying to understand how this could have occurred if the sear and striker were properly engaging, but I'm no engineer.

carloglock19
05-21-2012, 10:20
If the unintentional discharge happened exactly as you stated and that were my gun, it'd be going right back to S&W ASAP for a full inspection. It also might not remain as being my gun for very long thereafter either.

+1 even if the OP fixed it I would want to get it looked at by S&W. Who is to say that it might not happen again with less than favorable results. I didn't see much on my search as to other cases of this happening with an M&P if anyone has a link please post. The reason for my concern is that I own an M&P and would hate for this to happen to me.

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hoghunter82
05-21-2012, 10:59
S&W has the easiest return policy/procedure that I've ever dealt with. I would absolutely send it back and let them take a look. If in fact the scenario was as described, that M&P9 could have gone full auto with a packed mag. Even if you have the muzzle pointed in a safe direction that would scare the ***** out of me- especially if it had 17 in the mag.


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Captain Steinbrenner
05-21-2012, 11:09
I think you're making a big mistake by not calling S&W and letting them know about this AD, can you imagine if that bullet God forbids hits a human or a pet? :wow:
If I have to check the face of the bolt of my guns every time I load them I think I'd rather carry a rock in my pocket for PD or you can buy yourself a H&K....:whistling:

CBennett
05-21-2012, 11:20
If the unintentional discharge happened exactly as you stated and that were my gun, it'd be going right back to S&W ASAP for a full inspection. It also might not remain as being my gun for very long thereafter either.

^ good advice i agree with 100% what happens if it does it again for some reason...id want it checked out and made sure it was right.

CBennett
05-21-2012, 11:23
Watched a guy chamber a round in his M16-A4, went off as soon as the bolt drove the round into the chamber. His finger was no where near the trigger, and would not have been. It was a mechanical failure. AD. Not due to negligence.

Agreed, seen this happen also when I was in on the range. A true AD VERY SELDOM actually happens its ALMOST ALWAYS a ND...but when its a broken part,mechanical failure in the gun its self..thats a true AD.

faawrenchbndr
05-21-2012, 11:28
meh, 99% of the time I agree but this time it was one of those 1% times when this WOULD have happened next time a round got chambered no matter what ....Essentially this time it was a gun malfunction not user error...that gun as it was was going off next time a round chambered due to a GUN malfunction..luckily no one was hurt ..this wasn't user error it was a true and rare ACCIDENTAL discharge caused by a GUN malfunction not the user....:shocked:

OP was negligent in the manner go muzzle control.
He was damn ass lucky........

CBennett
05-21-2012, 11:35
OP was negligent in the manner go muzzle control.
He was damn ass lucky........

Agreed, but that IS NOT what caused to gun to go off...the actuall DISCHARGE was a accidental one caused by the guns malfunction..where the Bullet went is on the user,,,even if he had had it in a approved clearing barrel it still would have discharged and still would have been accidental..But i gotta 100% agree on where the muzzle was :shocked:

so id agree negligent in muzzle control NOT negligent on the discharge

Tsx
05-21-2012, 12:12
I would send the gun back to S&W, because if it can happen once what's to keep it from happening again (if it's the guns fault). If it is a faulty gun from the factory I'd have S&W buy me a new computer and repair the dry wall.

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 14:39
Agreed, but that IS NOT what caused to gun to go off...the actuall DISCHARGE was a accidental one caused by the guns malfunction..where the Bullet went is on the user,,,even if he had had it in a approved clearing barrel it still would have discharged and still would have been accidental..But i gotta 100% agree on where the muzzle was :shocked:

so id agree negligent in muzzle control NOT negligent on the discharge

The malfunction he claims, and you subscribe to, basically can't happen. Even if it did happen, his sear would have to be broken. The tail of the firing pin catches on the sear, and not by a little bit. The cruciform on Glocks does the same thing.

What is not basically impossible is that the OP was finger banging the thing. It's his carry gun yet he's loading it. Why wouldn't it have been loaded in the first place? One round in this mag, 17 in another, slide open, slide closed, all of this adds up to a high risk environment for computer monitors, walls, wives, trees and neighbors.

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 14:42
Watched a guy chamber a round in his M16-A4, went off as soon as the bolt drove the round into the chamber. His finger was no where near the trigger, and would not have been. It was a mechanical failure. AD. Not due to negligence.

M16's have a free floating firing pin. M&P's don't. The firing pin on the M&P engages the sear and is held there until the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear.

Foxtrotx1
05-21-2012, 14:45
Could someone please address the fact that the firing pin has to be caught by the sear? Basically, what the OP says happened is virtually impossible. Even if it did happen the way he said it did, there would have to be a significant defect in the tail of the FP or the sear, which means it can happen again.

If you superglued the FP in the forward position, the gun can't slam fire.

Nobody came here for the facts. :whistling:

I have already posted twice calling out the lie and nobody even responds. too busy arguing semantics.

modestglock26
05-21-2012, 14:45
Thanks for the post OP and glad no one was hurt.

CBennett
05-21-2012, 14:49
The malfunction he claims, and you subscribe to, basically can't happen. Even if it did happen, his sear would have to be broken. The tail of the firing pin catches on the sear, and not by a little bit. The cruciform on Glocks does the same thing.

What is not basically impossible is that the OP was finger banging the thing. It's his carry gun yet he's loading it. Why wouldn't it have been loaded in the first place? One round in this mag, 17 in another, slide open, slide closed, all of this adds up to a high risk environment for computer monitors, walls, wives, trees and neighbors.


I dont know I wasnt there and im taking the OP word for what happened. I dont know nor do i care why he had to reload it. Sometimes even if I have not shot in a while i will unload dis assemble and wipe down my gun then re assemble it and then I have to chamber a new round..I dont know why nor do I care why he had his out/no round in it.

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 15:01
I dont know I wasnt there and im taking the OP word for what happened. I dont know nor do i care why he had to reload it. Sometimes even if I have not shot in a while i will unload dis assemble and wipe down my gun then re assemble it and then I have to chamber a new round..I dont know why nor do I care why he had his out/no round in it.

By taking the OP's word for it, you're throwing S&W under the bus as they take great care to ensure their gun can not fire unless the trigger is drawn to the rear.

Rally Vincent
05-21-2012, 15:01
M16's have a free floating firing pin. M&P's don't. The firing pin on the M&P engages the sear and is held there until the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear.


I think you missed the point I was trying to make. :/

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 15:02
Nobody came here for the facts. :whistling:

I have already posted twice calling out the lie and nobody even responds. too busy arguing semantics.

:supergrin:

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 15:07
I think you missed the point I was trying to make. :/

I get it, that a gun can have a mechanical failure due to no fault of the user. Yes, it can happen. That's why we have Rule II.

My point was that the M&P pistol would need to have a serious mechanical failure that would be evident to a trained, and even untrained eye.

To your point, the OP violated Rule II.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-21-2012, 15:51
If you superglued the FP in the forward position, the gun can't slam fire.

I don't know the answer so let me ask. What would happen if you super glued the FP foward and then slingshotted the slide closed on a live round?

Would something prevent the slide from slamming home?

Arc Angel
05-21-2012, 15:52
....... In slightly over 40 years of shooting and handling guns. This is my first AD and I hope my last. I really freaked the wife out big time. I'm ok and nobody else was hurt or even close to being hurt. My ears and eye's are fine. I think I will leave the bullet hole in the trim to remind me of my mistake.

Be careful folks.

:thumbsup: That's a terrific story!

As far as I'm concerned it's also another good reason, 'Why' I refuse to carry any semiautomatic pistol in C-1 around my wife and family. Not once in my long, too often dangerous, life have I ever been required to quickdraw the other guy to death. I know; I know. After such a glaring internet gun forum admission, I'm now going to have to turn in my official Glockeroo cowboy chaps. :crying:

(It's just an afterthought, of course, but has the thought occurred to you that the most dangerous thing you encountered that evening is ........ your own C-1 pistol!) ;)

Nakanokalronin
05-21-2012, 16:06
Interesting point.

Looking down through my M&P FS 9mm chamber indicator hole with an empty chamber and a flashlight down through the muzzle shows the striker does indeed pull back after being fired with the trigger held back and without any movement of the slide. I did this several times so it seems not all striker fired guns act the same.

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 16:17
I don't know the answer so let me ask. What would happen if you super glued the FP foward and then slingshotted the slide closed on a live round?

Would something prevent the slide from slamming home?

Yes, the sear. Either the sear would break, the superglue would let go, or the tail of the firing pin would break, or the slide would hang up.

You can look at exploded views online, but they are a little hard to sort out. If you have a Glock or are familiar with them, then the cruciform as Glock calls it, does the same thing.

Sure, anything CAN happen, but you have to look at the likelihood of these things. What is more likely, that brass shavings defeated the built in safety systems of a gun designed and sold in a litigious society to be used by the masses, or that one of those masses, who was engaged in dubious gun handling, made a mistake?

BBSRQ
05-21-2012, 16:46
:thumbsup: That's a terrific story!

As far as I'm concerned it's also another good reason, 'Why' I refuse to carry any semiautomatic pistol in C-1 around my wife and family. Not once in my long, too often dangerous, life have I ever been required to quickdraw the other guy to death.

Yeah but what if you had the same situation as the OP and you found yourself in a spot requiring a mossad draw. You'd unload your entire mag before you had a chance to get on target! :shocked::faint:

Foxtrotx1
05-21-2012, 17:46
:thumbsup: That's a terrific story!

As far as I'm concerned it's also another good reason, 'Why' I refuse to carry any semiautomatic pistol in C-1 around my wife and family. Not once in my long, too often dangerous, life have I ever been required to quickdraw the other guy to death. I know; I know. After such a glaring internet gun forum admission, I'm now going to have to turn in my official Glockeroo cowboy chaps. :crying:

(It's just an afterthought, of course, but has the thought occurred to you that the most dangerous thing you encountered that evening is ........ your own C-1 pistol!) ;)

:faint:

ithaca_deerslayer
05-21-2012, 17:59
Yes, the sear. Either the sear would break, the superglue would let go, or the tail of the firing pin would break, or the slide would hang up.

You can look at exploded views online, but they are a little hard to sort out. If you have a Glock or are familiar with them, then the cruciform as Glock calls it, does the same thing.

Sure, anything CAN happen, but you have to look at the likelihood of these things. What is more likely, that brass shavings defeated the built in safety systems of a gun designed and sold in a litigious society to be used by the masses, or that one of those masses, who was engaged in dubious gun handling, made a mistake?

Trigger finger is statistically more likely. OP should indeed call S&W if there could be a problem with the gun.

I've seen my Glock FP stick out and then retract upon slide closure as you decribe. Thanks :)

Arc Angel
05-21-2012, 18:59
Yeah but what if you had the same situation as the OP and you found yourself in a spot requiring a mossad draw. You'd unload your entire mag before you had a chance to get on target! :shocked::faint:

:faint:

Like I said: I knew I'd have to turn in my Glockeroo cowboy chaps on this one. :supergrin:

On the other hand, I didn't get to be my present age by being either stupid or tending to miss whatever I've had to pull a gun on. Neither would I charge a semiautomatic pistol inside my own home until AFTER I'm certain that I need to use it. (Not even on the night our next door neighbor took five rounds into his chest right across the road from our bedroom window. The fight was between him and one of his drug-sucking rivals; and I left it that way.)

So, enough of the internet gun forum bravado - OK. I'm talking about the real world not one of your imaginary cyberspace gunfighting scenarios; and, in my world, my family's safety always comes first. There never has been an AD/ND inside my home; and I intend to keep things that way. ;)

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 19:05
Like I said: I knew I'd have to turn in my Glockeroo cowboy chaps on this one. :supergrin:

On the other hand, I didn't get to be my present age by being either stupid or tending to miss whatever I've had to pull a gun on. Neither would I charge a semiautomatic pistol inside my own home until AFTER I'm certain that I need to use it. (Not even on the night our next door neighbor took five rounds into his chest right across the road from our bedroom window. The fight was between him and one of his drug-sucking rivals; and I left it that way.)

So, enough of the internet gun forum bravado - OK. I'm talking about the real world not one of your imaginary cyberspace gunfighting scenarios; and, in my world, my family's safety always comes first. There never has been an AD/ND inside my home; and I intend to keep things that way. ;)

I'm sure glad there isn't any bravado offered in your post:faint:

Arc Angel
05-21-2012, 19:10
If the shoe fits, wear it, WiskyT. If you don't like reading my reply why not save the unwarranted sarcasm and just ignore: it, me, or both. (You'd come across as soo ..... much smarter that way - Understand?) ;)

WiskyT
05-21-2012, 19:32
If the shoe fits, wear it, WiskyT. If you don't like reading my reply why not save the unwarranted sarcasm and just ignore: it, me, or both. (You'd come across as soo ..... much smarter that way - Understand?) ;)

:faint:

redrick
05-21-2012, 19:35
:thumbsup: That's a terrific story!

As far as I'm concerned it's also another good reason, 'Why' I refuse to carry any semiautomatic pistol in C-1 around my wife and family. Not once in my long, too often dangerous, life have I ever been required to quickdraw the other guy to death. I know; I know. After such a glaring internet gun forum admission, I'm now going to have to turn in my official Glockeroo cowboy chaps. :crying:

(It's just an afterthought, of course, but has the thought occurred to you that the most dangerous thing you encountered that evening is ........ your own C-1 pistol!) ;)

To each his own, but if I felt like that I would carry a revolver with the hammer on a empty chamber, the cowboy way.

Foxtrotx1
05-21-2012, 20:41
Like I said: I knew I'd have to turn in my Glockeroo cowboy chaps on this one. :supergrin:

On the other hand, I didn't get to be my present age by being either stupid or tending to miss whatever I've had to pull a gun on. Neither would I charge a semiautomatic pistol inside my own home until AFTER I'm certain that I need to use it. (Not even on the night our next door neighbor took five rounds into his chest right across the road from our bedroom window. The fight was between him and one of his drug-sucking rivals; and I left it that way.)

So, enough of the internet gun forum bravado - OK. I'm talking about the real world not one of your imaginary cyberspace gunfighting scenarios; and, in my world, my family's safety always comes first. There never has been an AD/ND inside my home; and I intend to keep things that way. ;)

No modern semi automatic firearm of any quality will discharge without a trigger pull unless you the operator are negligent in it's use.

You are just making up for your lack of confidence in your own abilities with poor decision making. But hey, not my kids that might get hurt cause a bad guy got the jump on you.

BBSRQ
05-21-2012, 20:58
No modern semi automatic firearm of any quality will discharge without a trigger pull unless you the operator are negligent in it's use.

You are just making up for your lack of confidence in your own abilities with poor decision making. But hey, not my kids that might get hurt cause a bad guy got the jump on you.

FWIW, I was actually not questioning the choice to keep an empty chamber, only pointing out how something could go wrong no matter how you carry. But, to be honest about it, I don't think I'll ever be as comfortable with a chambered round in a pistol as I am with a revolver. I know its the same thing in essence but still, I'm with Arc Angel. Besides, there's not alot of time wasted. Check this out: Modified Israeli Mossad Draw (IMD) - YouTube

mongo356
05-21-2012, 22:42
OP were you wearing a Serpa at the time I have heard they will cause an AD/ND-lol. Which ever you call it-end result can be the same.

Learning event, life is full of them,no harm (the important part) next case.

faawrenchbndr
05-21-2012, 23:15
Agreed, but that IS NOT what caused to gun to go off........


Yes,.........I did read that. I still see it as negligence, even though the discharge was due to a malfunction.

Rally Vincent
05-22-2012, 00:50
FWIW, I was actually not questioning the choice to keep an empty chamber, only pointing out how something could go wrong no matter how you carry. But, to be honest about it, I don't think I'll ever be as comfortable with a chambered round in a pistol as I am with a revolver. I know its the same thing in essence but still, I'm with Arc Angel. Besides, there's not alot of time wasted. Check this out: Modified Israeli Mossad Draw (IMD) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g)


True Operator. Just look at his gut. :P

Good video though. Just shows that with practice it can be effective.

Foxtrotx1
05-22-2012, 01:04
So what if you are using your other hand to fight off an Attacker? rack the slide on jeans? Iffy at best.

H&K 4 LIFE
05-22-2012, 08:40
This thread is quickly turning into a debate on chamber empty vs. chamber loaded carry. However, this does not have one iota of relevance to the topic at hand.

The fact remains that the S&W M&P pistol is designed to be carried safely with a round in the chamber and loading a live round into the chamber should not cause the pistol to discharge.

A possible mechanical failure that caused the pistol to discharge unintentionally should be the extent of our focus here, and whatever any given persons opinion's are on what condition a pistol should be carried in is wholly irrelevant to this subject.

This is really simple folks. If (big if) their is something actually mechanically wrong with the pistol that caused it to discharge upon loading it needs to go back to S&W. Not doing so and instead carrying/using a handgun with a possible previously known safety issue falls directly under the category of unsafe, irresponsible, and negligent behavior.

carloglock19
05-22-2012, 10:54
This thread is quickly turning into a debate on chamber empty vs. chamber loaded carry. However, this does not have one iota of relevance to the topic at hand.

The fact remains that the S&W M&P pistol is designed to be carried safely with a round in the chamber and loading a live round into the chamber should not cause the pistol to discharge.

A possible mechanical failure that caused the pistol to discharge unintentionally should be the extent of our focus here, and whatever any given persons opinion's are on what condition a pistol should be carried in is wholly irrelevant to this subject.

This is really simple folks. If (big if) their is something actually mechanically wrong with the pistol that caused it to discharge upon loading it needs to go back to S&W. Not doing so and instead carrying/using a handgun with a possible previously known safety issue falls directly under the category of unsafe, irresponsible, and negligent behavior.

Good post. If it was my handgun and it fired on its own I would be sending that thing back to S&W ASAP. It just did it once and I cleaned or fixed it would not be a good enough answer for me. This thread is quickly turning into a one in the chamber vs not one in the chamber, accidental vs negligent discharge. There is a good read in the new NRA Shooting Illustrated magazine about the latter.

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truetopath
05-22-2012, 11:34
Tough way to learn a lesson, I'm glad for your sake that no one was hurt.

blastfact
05-25-2012, 20:37
The discharge I had. Had to be my fault! I had to have had my finger on the trigger when I racked the slide! I took the pistol to two gunsmiths I trust with my soul. Yeah the striker was stuck. But you had to of had the trigger pulled for it to fire. Whisky and Fox have been right all a long.... Props to the brothers!!!!!

There is no way in hell,,, stuck striker or not! That a M&P can slam fire unless the trigger is pulled. It is mechanically impossible without major mechanical damage. And my pistol does not have the damage needed to prove the point. It has no damage. And it's action measures out.

I screwed up.

My right hand anchor wear mark on my desk.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/desk.jpg

How my minds eye see's me holding the pistol at the time of the AD.

http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/638/medium/9mmd.jpg

What I have learned from this? I was to comphy. I blurred the line between bench work and live! I screwed up all the way around!

JuneyBooney
05-25-2012, 22:58
Glad you are ok. I think most of us make human errors some times in our lives. It is good that there were no serious injuries other than your pride.

carloglock19
05-26-2012, 02:48
That definitely sheds new light on this thread. I was really bummed about wanting to sell my M&P but I guess now after the final report back in the safe it goes. Glad no one was hurt and lessons learned. Thanks for the post and your honesty OP.

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WiskyT
05-26-2012, 05:46
The discharge I had. Had to be my fault! I had to have had my finger on the trigger when I racked the slide! I took the pistol to two gunsmiths I trust with my soul. Yeah the striker was stuck. But you had to of had the trigger pulled for it to fire. Whisky and Fox have been right all a long.... Props to the brothers!!!!!

There is no way in hell,,, stuck striker or not! That a M&P can slam fire unless the trigger is pulled. It is mechanically impossible without major mechanical damage. And my pistol does not have the damage needed to prove the point. It has no damage. And it's action measures out.

I screwed up.

My right hand anchor wear mark on my desk.

How my minds eye see's me holding the pistol at the time of the AD.

What I have learned from this? I was to comphy. I blurred the line between bench work and live! I screwed up all the way around!

There's a lot of personal responsibilty in there. Your parents did something right.:thumbsup:

Foxtrotx1
05-26-2012, 05:59
OP, good on you for admitting it.

Arc is oddly silent here....

Markasaurus
05-27-2012, 01:29
You mean this

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_03-15-2012.pdf


"Check the barrel chamber to verify it is unloaded and check
the bore visually for any obstructions (FIGURE 6). Examine
the breech face (FIGURE 7) to ensure that the firing pin is not
protruding. (FIGURES 7 & 8) If the firing pin is protruding, do
not attempt to load or fire the firearm. Bring it to a gunsmith
qualified to perform service on Smith & Wesson firearms."

I think this is a ND that never should have happened. They put it right in the owner's manual as if to tell you, you need to check for a protruding firing pin every time you load it up.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j169/marc780/SW_FkkUp.jpg
This is a design flaw that should have been rectified before they put the piece into production and sold it to the public. Since when should you have to check for a protruding firing pin every time you jack one in the chamber? Neither the AR rifles nor AK, which has to be one of the most crude firearms on the planet, have this problem and their design does not even have a return spring on the firing pin.

If the firing pin needs to be checked all the time after shooting it (does using it void the warranty?) this is not a gun that should have ever been sold to the public by a responsible manufacturer. Smith and Wesson oh how the mighty have fallen.

Dump it and get something else. ANYTHING else.

And i too am glad nobody got hurt! Shame on the designers of this death-trap.

Foxtrotx1
05-27-2012, 03:21
You mean this

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_03-15-2012.pdf


"Check the barrel chamber to verify it is unloaded and check
the bore visually for any obstructions (FIGURE 6). Examine
the breech face (FIGURE 7) to ensure that the firing pin is not
protruding. (FIGURES 7 & 8) If the firing pin is protruding, do
not attempt to load or fire the firearm. Bring it to a gunsmith
qualified to perform service on Smith & Wesson firearms."

I think this is a ND that never should have happened. They put it right in the owner's manual as if to tell you, you need to check for a protruding firing pin every time you load it up.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j169/marc780/SW_FkkUp.jpg
This is a design flaw that should have been rectified before they put the piece into production and sold it to the public. Since when should you have to check for a protruding firing pin every time you jack one in the chamber? Neither the AR rifles nor AK, which has to be one of the most crude firearms on the planet, have this problem and their design does not even have a return spring on the firing pin.

If the firing pin needs to be checked all the time after shooting it (does using it void the warranty?) this is not a gun that should have ever been sold to the public by a responsible manufacturer. Smith and Wesson oh how the mighty have fallen.

Dump it and get something else. ANYTHING else.

And i too am glad nobody got hurt! Shame on the designers of this death-trap.

.....:faint:Op admitted he pulled the trigger. And that thing you are talking about is a CYA statement in case the sear dosnt catch the FP.

WiskyT
05-27-2012, 07:59
.....:faint:Op admitted he pulled the trigger. And that thing you are talking about is a CYA statement in case the sear dosnt catch the FP.

Pretty much every gun I own has a warning that says, basically, "Don't Load This Gun Ever". All guns are negligent!

Restless28
05-27-2012, 08:10
Is the slam fire thing particular to striker fired handguns? Is a hammer fired gun immune?

WiskyT
05-27-2012, 08:19
Is the slam fire thing particular to striker fired handguns? Is a hammer fired gun immune?

I've seen a 1911 dump a mag when the slide as dropped and it had a hammer.

jellis11
05-27-2012, 08:20
Glad you and the wife are alright. Was she mad?
Thanks, like others have said, for reminding me to think about safe directions.

glock30user
05-27-2012, 08:28
Thanks for the post. Glad everyone is alright. Does make me reconsider the thought of buying an M&P though...

98LS-WON
05-27-2012, 11:04
Always good to get reminder from someone else's experience. Glad everyone is OK.

blastfact
05-28-2012, 09:48
You mean this

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson2/upload/other/M&P_Pistol_Manual_03-15-2012.pdf


"Check the barrel chamber to verify it is unloaded and check
the bore visually for any obstructions (FIGURE 6). Examine
the breech face (FIGURE 7) to ensure that the firing pin is not
protruding. (FIGURES 7 & 8) If the firing pin is protruding, do
not attempt to load or fire the firearm. Bring it to a gunsmith
qualified to perform service on Smith & Wesson firearms."

I think this is a ND that never should have happened. They put it right in the owner's manual as if to tell you, you need to check for a protruding firing pin every time you load it up.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j169/marc780/SW_FkkUp.jpg
This is a design flaw that should have been rectified before they put the piece into production and sold it to the public. Since when should you have to check for a protruding firing pin every time you jack one in the chamber? Neither the AR rifles nor AK, which has to be one of the most crude firearms on the planet, have this problem and their design does not even have a return spring on the firing pin.

If the firing pin needs to be checked all the time after shooting it (does using it void the warranty?) this is not a gun that should have ever been sold to the public by a responsible manufacturer. Smith and Wesson oh how the mighty have fallen.

Dump it and get something else. ANYTHING else.

And i too am glad nobody got hurt! Shame on the designers of this death-trap.

That is the page and picture in my manual.

But I think you have taken it way out of context. A striker / firing pin can have issues at any point. Mine did and I did not check and clean it like I should have. The resulting slam fire was on me. I had to of had my finger on the trigger. Thus allowing the slam fire to take place.

Thank God I only had one round in the mag.

If I had my finger OFF the trigger the pistol would have never went off!

I tested the weapon at old large quarry this Sat. with a fellow shooter and Smith I've known for 46 years. All live ammo! We used a industrial adhesive much like Super Glue to glue the striker in a forward position against return spring. We beat on it, dropped the slide, beat on it some more. Abused it every way we could think of, short of throwing it in the very bottom of the pit. Nothing would make it fire with one round chambered and empty mag in it. EXCEPT having the trigger pulled. Just like when I made it go off at my desk. All that was accomplished was a very slight wear mark on the sear. Thats it! It also will not HOSE a mag. I tried that several times. The trigger transfer bar is moved out from under the sear by the slide once it fires.

There is nothing wrong with the pistol or it's design. NOTHING!

The fault was ME! I blurred the line between bench time and a live pistol. I had to of had my finger on the trigger and not below the trigger guard like my minds eye see's it. I can still see the pistol going off in slow motion in my mind. And the very intensive focus of watching the slide going backwards and locking back. I can not see where my trigger finger is. But it's safe to say where it was at. On The Trigger. :(

blastfact
05-28-2012, 10:03
Glad you and the wife are alright. Was she mad?
Thanks, like others have said, for reminding me to think about safe directions.

No,,, the wife was not mad. She was scared. Once it was clear in her mind I had not shot myself and the bullet was accounted for, she relaxed.

She is still puzzled by the fact that I pulled the trigger. I am a finger off the trigger preacher and believer. And I of all people blew it. It saddens her that I blew it. But she knew I would get to the bottom of the issue. She knew I would set my pride and mind's eye aside and figure out what happened. And deal with it forth right.

Tru7h
05-28-2012, 22:23
Great thread. It's good to be occasionally reminded how quickly bad things can happen, and exactly how it's happened to others. THe OP's honesty and desire not to see this happen to someone else is extremely refreshing.

Is the slam fire thing particular to striker fired handguns? Is a hammer fired gun immune?

An SKS can have some major problems with this, especially if its not clean. The hammer drives a firing pin which rides in a channel and has a tapered surface to limit the firing pins travel. Unfortunately, the firing pin has a similar enough tapered surface that enough crud can act as a shim and morse taper seize the fp forward. Combine that with the fact that most 7.62x39 ammo is dirty anyway, and you have a good incenitve to keep that area clean and dry. Certainly not an issue that should cause the weapon to be discarded, but it deserves attention when operating one.

In a way, that's a striker fired system, however any device for setting off a primer which is jammed forward will cause a slam fire. Even a revolver (though I've never even heard of it happening)