ASP/Baton...any place in preps? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : ASP/Baton...any place in preps?


emt1581
05-21-2012, 20:34
Anyone have one as a citizen/civilian/non-LEO?

Where does it fit into your preps from EDC all the way to TEOTWAWKI....??

Thanks

-Emt1581

thesurefire
05-21-2012, 20:47
Anyone have one as a citizen/civilian/non-LEO?

Where does it fit into your preps from EDC all the way to TEOTWAWKI....??

Thanks

-Emt1581

I dont really see any value in it for SHTF. If the person isnt really dangerous but might be a threat, handcuffs and/or legcuffs should be enough. If they are dangerous you probably want either something lethal or at least something more effective than a small metal rod.

If you're walking around in a warzone what would you rather have, a stick or a gun? I see why police officers carry them, but I also see why our military sticks to firearms. I dont plan to ever play cop.

emt1581
05-21-2012, 20:52
I own one but only because I got it for 2 dollars at a garage sale.

I dont really see any value in it for SHTF. If the person isnt really dangerous but might be a threat, handcuffs and/or legcuffs should be enough. If they are dangerous you probably want either something lethal or at least something more effective than a small metal rod.

If you're walking around in a warzone what would you rather have, a stick or a gun? I see why police officers carry them, but I also see why our military sticks to firearms. I dont plan to ever play cop.

I wasn't implying anything about playing cop if it came across that way. I was thinking more along the lines of a quiet weapon with the potential to be used to disable or kill (lethal/non-lethal) quietly. It can also be used to gain leverage in certain situations (with objects not people). Good for smashing things (windows, etc.).

Again, just curious what use they may have and if anyone has tucked one away or carries one?

Thanks

-Emt1581

LongGun1
05-21-2012, 20:59
Anyone have one as a citizen/civilian/non-LEO?

Where does it fit into your preps from EDC all the way to TEOTWAWKI....??

Thanks

-Emt1581


Yes...I have several (expandable batons).

I like them because they are fairly quiet, compact, many applications (non-lethal to lethal), other uses as well.


Need to check possession/carry/use laws in your area..

..in untrained hands it can be considered a lethal weapon...IIRC!

thesurefire
05-21-2012, 21:00
I wasn't implying anything about playing cop if it came across that way.

Sorry, I didnt mean to imply that. What I meant was batons are most often used to disable or cause discomfort and not kill. I can see the value for breaking windows or prying things but I think a crowbar would more useful, and if worse comes to worse you can always use the crowbar as a weapon.

emt1581
05-21-2012, 21:09
Yes...I have several (expandable batons).

I like them because they are fairly quiet, compact, many applications (non-lethal to lethal), other uses as well.


Need to check possession/carry/use laws in your area..

..in untrained hands it can be considered a lethal weapon...IIRC!

Where do you order them from?

I'd like to pick one up and give it a try.

Thanks

-Emt1581

4Rules
05-21-2012, 21:11
As mentioned, issues that need to be considered include certified training in it's use and the legality of carrying it concealed. If you have obtained recent training, and it's legal for you to carry, it could add value, but...if improperly used, a baton can be lethal, and many states, in their CCW permitting, do not include weapons other than firearms.

emt1581
05-21-2012, 21:28
Opticsplanet has them.

I never realized there were so many different versions and exponentially more accessories for them. Yikes!!

Which to try which to try??

-Emt1581

lawman800
05-21-2012, 22:05
Useless for a lot of applications. If you want a short stick, use a short stick, if you want a baton, carry a baton. When SHTF, who cares if you have a full sized baton on you?

I carried an ASP when it first came out and was the fashionable stick to have as a cop, and then I used it... and went back to the good ole hickory stick.

Bushflyr
05-21-2012, 22:49
ASP's are crap. Obviously better than nothing, but a good jack is 100x better. You're going to get the same rap if you're caught with one, but an asp is a pain compliance tool. A jack will put someone in a home.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/bushflyr/IMAG0059.jpg

lawman800
05-21-2012, 22:52
ASP's are crap. Obviously better than nothing, but a good jack is 100x better. You're going to get the same rap if you're caught with one, but an asp is a pain compliance tool. A jack will put someone in a home.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/bushflyr/IMAG0059.jpg

The knife will put him in the morgue.

LongGun1
05-21-2012, 23:32
....., but an asp is a pain compliance tool. A jack will put someone in a home.




Yes...an ASP can be used as a pain compliance tool..

..or in your words "put someone in a home"..

..or enable someone to meet their maker! :shocked:


Dealer's Choice! :whistling:


It also can accomplish all of the above & more..

.. with a stand-off distance that a sap or knife does not!



YMMV

carbuncle
05-21-2012, 23:43
I got one as a present in the 90s, I carry it in my commuter bag as a prep but not for what one might think. We live in earthquake country, and on any given day there's a chance I'll have to walk 15 miles home as the crow flies after a major disaster (if I survive the initial quake). A few months ago I decided to start carrying the Asp baton as an all-purpose tool for rescue, leverage, emergency exit from public transportation...I can think of several scenarios it might be handier to have on me than sitting in the back of the safe. Not too many of them are self defense related, though: with the PPS and two knives on board the Asp is low on the go-to list for me.

Sent from my T-Mobile G2 using Tapatalk 2

9mm +p+
05-22-2012, 00:01
I've used them on duty as well as a civvie, ASP's are not junk. I've beat one that i"ve had for years on cars as well as walls and suspects as few times and it still works fine. I still carry a 26" nickled model daily, i have had to pull it on a few A holes in the last few years but no strike was needed.

Snaps
05-22-2012, 00:35
my $.02, I work in a prison, we have them... However I've never seen one used. Incase of fights they don't even get pulled out. People just fight the way you have your entire life vs trying to use something different.

So if you actually want one, IMO you'd have to get very accustomed to using it to the point where it was second nature.

barbedwiresmile
05-22-2012, 03:57
The asp and baton are tools of control and compliance. Tools of the state. No place in an individual preppers toolbox. Unless of course you were thinking of setting up your own state, complete with regulatory and tax regimes. Then you would need batons and a crew of guys to wield them.

emt1581
05-22-2012, 04:57
ASP's are crap. Obviously better than nothing, but a good jack is 100x better. You're going to get the same rap if you're caught with one, but an asp is a pain compliance tool. A jack will put someone in a home.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b65/bushflyr/IMAG0059.jpg

I've got the large model. That is easily a bone/skull crusher.

However, I think ASPs may be legal to carry in PA whereas blackjacks are not AFAIK.

-Emt1581

Pardoner
05-22-2012, 05:25
Useless for a lot of applications. If you want a short stick, use a short stick, if you want a baton, carry a baton. When SHTF, who cares if you have a full sized baton on you?

I carried an ASP when it first came out and was the fashionable stick to have as a cop, and then I used it... and went back to the good ole hickory stick.

+100

I have carried and used several types of expandable batons over the years. Most of the expandable batons are too light to cause any significant "discomfort". They don't come even close to the force you can deliver with a real fixed baton.

They are TERRIBLE for prying. You will end up bending it and then you have a crappy fixed baton.

emt1581
05-22-2012, 05:34
+100

I have carried and used several types of expandable batons over the years. Most of the expandable batons are too light to cause any significant "discomfort". They don't come even close to the force you can deliver with a real fixed baton.

They are TERRIBLE for prying. You will end up bending it and then you have a crappy fixed baton.

I've never carried one. But I do have a cheap one I paid $2 for at a flea market. That thing will break bone!

Saying these things will only cause discomfort makes them sound like toys to me. I can't speak for ASP's but the expandable one I have is good to go....just cheap and no frills.

-Emt1581

eracer
05-22-2012, 05:37
I've see too many videos where a LEO is beating some large drunken fool with an ASP, and the fool just stands there and laughs at the cop.

emt1581
05-22-2012, 05:39
I've see too many videos where a LEO is beating some large drunken fool with an ASP, and the fool just stands there and laughs at the cop.

Do you have any links?

Again, I can't speak to ASP's but I've never seen such a thing.

-Emt1581

bdcochran
05-22-2012, 05:40
1. You google the following words: "are asps legal in pennsylvania". Interesting threads on the subject.

2. You think about what people used before the concept of stocking asp dealers came about. Kids tore off radio antennas on cars.

3. Building on item no. 2. Think about getting hit by a car radio antenna. No, it isn't as cool, threatening and impressive as an $80 heavy piece of junk in your hand. However, it is extremely light weight.

4. The best "weapon" is your brain. Everything else is secondary. Bad guys in the hood carry old fashioned razors? Because they shave more frequently than people in the suburbs? Why do Hell's Angels carry 20 ounce ball peen hammers instead of AR15s? Why do the homeless carry sharpened screwdrivers? Why do old folks (I am almost there) carry a simple stick when they take a morning walk?

5. As the prison guard advised, if you carry a baton, spend the time and money to get very skilled. If you don't, someone is probably going to take it away from you.

lawman800
05-22-2012, 08:44
My buddy went toe to toe with an one-legged homeless dude and he used his ASP and he couldn't win the fight with it, so he just ended up kicking the one leg out from under the guy... it was a bad scene.

Glockdude1
05-22-2012, 08:53
Yes...I have several (expandable batons).

I like them because they are fairly quiet, compact, many applications (non-lethal to lethal), other uses as well.


:agree:

Glockdude1
05-22-2012, 08:54
My buddy went toe to toe with an one-legged homeless dude and he used his ASP and he couldn't win the fight with it, so he just ended up kicking the one leg out from under the guy... it was a bad scene.

:rofl:

I would love to see that video!!

kirgi08
05-22-2012, 09:46
I've see too many videos where a LEO is beating some large drunken fool with an ASP, and the fool just stands there and laughs at the cop.

Cops have strike rules.In a S/P not so much.'08.

quake
05-22-2012, 10:31
As mentioned before - watch legalities carefully. I carried a 21" asp on duty for years and with just a small amount of training (I'm no expert or ninja), it's a far cry from 'junk'.


Cops have strike rules.In a S/P not so much.'08.
This. Nothing allowable in our policy above the shoulder, which seriously (and intentionally) limits damage done.

Once opened, an asp is just a steel bar (never messed with the aluminum ones). In a full-on, no-rules fight, if a guy can't do some damage with a two-foot steel bar called an asp, then he can't do damage with a two-foot piece of rebar either; and if a guy isn't capable of doing some serious damage with a two-foot piece of rebar, then he's probably about helpless anyway.

sebecman
05-22-2012, 11:40
Once opened, an asp is just a steel bar (never messed with the aluminum ones). In a full-on, no-rules fight, if a guy can't do some damage with a two-foot steel bar called an asp, then he can't do damage with a two-foot piece of rebar either; and if a guy isn't capable of doing some serious damage with a two-foot piece of rebar, then he's probably about helpless anyway.

:rofl:That's sig material right there....(well, with a little editing to meet the 250 character limit)

syntaxerrorsix
05-22-2012, 11:56
Anyone have one as a citizen/civilian/non-LEO?

Where does it fit into your preps from EDC all the way to TEOTWAWKI....??

Thanks

-Emt1581

I've got one next to the front door.

G29Reload
05-22-2012, 12:25
I keep one in my console to bust out the glass if I'm ever trapped in an accident. No guarantee, but I'd rather have it than not.

Glockdude1
05-22-2012, 13:37
I keep one in my console to bust out the glass if I'm ever trapped in an accident. No guarantee, but I'd rather have it than not.

It is for that reason I have a ASP glass breaker on mine.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/alternateforce/asp-breakaway1.jpg

:cool:

LongGun1
05-22-2012, 15:16
Cops have strike rules.In a S/P not so much.'08.


Exactly! :thumbsup:

LongGun1
05-22-2012, 15:20
As mentioned before - watch legalities carefully. I carried a 21" asp on duty for years and with just a small amount of training (I'm no expert or ninja), it's a far cry from 'junk'.



This. Nothing allowable in our policy above the shoulder, which seriously (and intentionally) limits damage done.

Once opened, an asp is just a steel bar (never messed with the aluminum ones). In a full-on, no-rules fight, if a guy can't do some damage with a two-foot steel bar called an asp, then he can't do damage with a two-foot piece of rebar either; and if a guy isn't capable of doing some serious damage with a two-foot piece of rebar, then he's probably about helpless anyway.


Good One!! :thumbsup:


I was starting to wonder if some here were confusing the ASP..

..with a NERF Baton! :rofl:


My ASP in a full-on, defense of my life fight has two settings..

..hospital or morgue! :whistling:

Pardoner
05-22-2012, 15:42
I've never carried one. But I do have a cheap one I paid $2 for at a flea market. That thing will break bone!

Saying these things will only cause discomfort makes them sound like toys to me. I can't speak for ASP's but the expandable one I have is good to go....just cheap and no frills.

-Emt1581

Most of the expandable batons are easy to carry around on your duty belt (ie they are light). Remember force=mass*velocity.

Very few of them have the weight of the old school straight sticks.

You will see plenty of videos of officers swinging away with a baton using both hands to swing them because they are so light, you need to swing them really hard. With all the political correctness going on, an officer swinging away using both hands like he is trying to hit a home run looks really bad on video, but it rarely causes any serious injuries.

Saying that there are no off limit strike zones in SP uses, then why even mess with one to begin with. If your going to go straight to wacking someone in the head with one, then why not keep your distance and use a firearm? Seems a lot safer.

I have seen people use the cheap ones, they tend to bend, rust and break or don't stay open.

My baton got very little use compared to spray. You had to get a lot closer and if your using only one hand, I could never generate enough force once it came to striking to make a difference. You may have some ungodly massive arms and be able to swing one a lot harder than I ever could, but something heavier would work better, but then you loose the attraction of the ASP.

quake
05-22-2012, 17:05
First, before I thread-drift too bad, I really don't see a collapsible baton as a priority for an S&P item. Have one and it's legal for me to carry anywhere in the state, and I don't except when in uniform.

Additionally, another downside to asps that I haven't seen mentioned is that they rattle some; at least mine always has. The shorter, two-segment ones may not, but mine's a three-segment and the center segment free-floats inside when collapsed and does rattle in there somewhat. Not extremely loud, but not silent either.

That said...
Most of the expandable batons are easy to carry around on your duty belt (ie they are light). Remember force=mass*velocity.

Very few of them have the weight of the old school straight sticks.
I don't mean to come across as contentious, but they're so close weight-wise that I'm not following this.

My old 21" asp is 19.2 ounces and a 24" straight monadnock polymer weighs 20 oz. The 26" asp is 23.3 oz, and the 26" monadnock straight stick is 21.6 oz. Weight is basically identical between similar lengths of the two different types of baton.

Additionally, the weight of the asp is biased toward the head (striking) end, as the end held in the hand is hollow. With the same overall weight and the balance-point shifted more toward the striking end, the collapsible baton will actually deliver more force on impact for a given velocity.

I carried the asp because it was compact, not because it was light. It may be that you're used to the airweight (aluminum) asps; I never tried those as I always saw them as too light myself.


Saying that there are no off limit strike zones in SP uses, then why even mess with one to begin with. If your going to go straight to wacking someone in the head with one, then why not keep your distance and use a firearm? Seems a lot safer.
Agree completely.


My baton got very little use compared to spray...
I quit carrying spray nearly ten years ago. Not knocking it at all - it works great, but I'm one of those people that it just completely ruins. Some folks can take it, but not me. It tears me up something awful, to the point that it'd be like me using a hand grenade to stop a bad guy in my living room; it'll definitely stop him, but I'm just about as bad off as he is afterward.

I genuinely envy people who aren't torn up as bad by OC as I am, but it's something I just can't take. :dunno:

beatcop
05-22-2012, 17:15
The asp and baton are tools of control and compliance. Tools of the state. No place in an individual preppers toolbox. Unless of course you were thinking of setting up your own state, complete with regulatory and tax regimes. Then you would need batons and a crew of guys to wield them.

:whistling: Yeah, ok.....

beatcop
05-22-2012, 17:22
...anyway

They are "nice" to have for a "particular" situation. More than likely, you won't be in that situation. If that makes any sense.

I have used one in the course of business and wasn't impressed. That being said, I took textbook green zone swings and am not that strong. If you hit a red zone, your results will be different.

In our shtf fantasy, if you are at contact distance...things have gone wrong. You will not be able to get it out in time if you are rushed by someone up close....you can tell me you will, but I have been there.

emt1581
05-22-2012, 18:56
Now I just want to buy one to get a closer look at it and swing it to judge for myself.

-Emt1581

syntaxerrorsix
05-22-2012, 19:11
Now I just want to buy one to get a closer look at it and swing it to judge for myself.

-Emt1581

The re-bar analogy was accurate and if you have it out and ready to rock it is just as effective. I keep mine extended and hanging by the front door because I don't always carry a firearm at home.

Up close away from home I prefer an easily deployable knife as opposed to blunt trauma.

I always carry a knife unless I'm naked but I spend some quality time naked so I like to keep my options open :wavey:

Pardoner
05-22-2012, 19:43
First, before I thread-drift too bad, I really don't see a collapsible baton as a priority for an S&P item. Have one and it's legal for me to carry anywhere in the state, and I don't except when in uniform.

Additionally, another downside to asps that I haven't seen mentioned is that they rattle some; at least mine always has. The shorter, two-segment ones may not, but mine's a three-segment and the center segment free-floats inside when collapsed and does rattle in there somewhat. Not extremely loud, but not silent either.

That said...

I don't mean to come across as contentious, but they're so close weight-wise that I'm not following this.

My old 21" asp is 19.2 ounces and a 24" straight monadnock polymer weighs 20 oz. The 26" asp is 23.3 oz, and the 26" monadnock straight stick is 21.6 oz. Weight is basically identical between similar lengths of the two different types of baton.

I carried the asp because it was compact, not because it was light. It may be that you're used to the airweight (aluminum) asps; I never tried those as I always saw them as too light myself.

:dunno:


I carried the 21" Autolock on my belt. It rattled along with a bunch of other junk that rattled too. I also had easy access to a good wood baton when I figured things might need a thumping.

I guess I never directly compared the weight of the two. I found through experience that all the expandable did was leave welts unless you really went Babe Ruth on someone with it and I tried to avoid that if possible. I even had better results with a mag light when things got crazy.

Now the wood stick put them down when things got rough, in my experience. I even took the expandable off my belt because it never got used and it was one of the first pieces of gear I sold when I got out of the business without looking back.

Buy one if you want for SP, but I do not see any use for them in the civilian world. After carrying and using one for years, I wouldn't even consider buying another. There are too many other items that give you a lot more range and weigh a lot less.

AK_Stick
05-22-2012, 22:56
I wasn't implying anything about playing cop if it came across that way. I was thinking more along the lines of a quiet weapon with the potential to be used to disable or kill (lethal/non-lethal) quietly. It can also be used to gain leverage in certain situations (with objects not people). Good for smashing things (windows, etc.).

Again, just curious what use they may have and if anyone has tucked one away or carries one?

Thanks

-Emt1581

I don't really see anything "quiet" about using an ASP. If you use it right, its generally kinda noisy.


That said, "I" have and see no real use for an ASP in my Survival preps. I have two, and no idea where they are. I got them for work, and I've only ever used on one time.


SD speaking, you can't take an ASP anywhere you can't take a gun, so I don't see much of a real use for it.

wjv
05-22-2012, 23:06
I have an ASP, which is illegal to carry here, even with a concealed permit. Have a few other things that are illegal to carry (but not illegal to own).

If it's a major SHTF, I don't think most cops will be yelling: "Hey you with the Mini-14 and the Glock 19. Come over here and let me check you for a switchblade". . . .

lawman800
05-23-2012, 08:40
The ASP is a felony here if carried, and a loaded gun is a misdemeanor. Both will get you shot by the cops too if you have one in your hand and present a danger to the cop.

syntaxerrorsix
05-23-2012, 09:02
The ASP is a felony here if carried, and a loaded gun is a misdemeanor. Both will get you shot by the cops too if you have one in your hand and present a danger to the cop.

Well that makes perfect sense.

I'm glad I don't live where you do however I suspect cops anywhere will shoot you if you are a danger to them. Not really sure why you thought that was relevant.

ASP's and firearms are legal here and you can carry them concealed with a permit.

lawman800
05-23-2012, 09:09
Well that makes perfect sense.

I'm glad I don't live where you do however I suspect cops anywhere will shoot you if you are a danger to them. Not really sure why you thought that was relevant.

ASP's and firearms are legal here and you can carry them concealed with a permit.

Okay, let me expand on the thought:

FOR CIVILIANS:

ASP's are illegal to carry, felony to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

Knives are legal to carry, felony if you conceal a fixed blade knife, cannot be double edged (dirk or dagger), legal to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

Guns are illegal (misdemeanor) to carry without permit or exemptions, legal to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

Just trying to show that there is no logic to any of this that while a relatively useless blunt impact weapon is a felony to own and there are no exemptions, a sharp deadly knife is a felony to conceal but can be openly carried without limit, a gun is a misdemeanor without a permit but can be legal to conceal, and all will get you shot by the cops equally.

Glockdude1
05-23-2012, 09:12
Okay, let me expand on the thought:

FOR CIVILIANS:

ASP's are illegal to carry, felony to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

Knives are legal to carry, felony if you conceal a fixed blade knife, cannot be double edged (dirk or dagger), legal to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

Guns are illegal (misdemeanor) to carry without permit or exemptions, legal to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

Just trying to show that there is no logic to any of this that while a relatively useless blunt impact weapon is a felony to own and there are no exemptions, a sharp deadly knife is a felony to conceal but can be openly carried without limit, a gun is a misdemeanor without a permit but can be legal to conceal, and all will get you shot by the cops equally.

What state are you in? Just asking.

:cool:

Bushflyr
05-23-2012, 11:23
ASP's are illegal to carry, felony to own, and will get you shot as a deadly weapon.

That's insane. :shocked: And plenty of people where I am carry big old sticks when they're out walking the dogs. Hickory stick > ASP any day of the week.

actionshooter10
05-23-2012, 13:52
ASP (and any other club) is illegal to carry in TX.

mac66
05-23-2012, 14:02
I carry one on my bicycle. They are handy at warding off dogs or cars that come too close or idiots who try to jack with you on the trail. Pulled it out a number of times only used it once.

LongGun1
05-23-2012, 17:35
What state are you in? Just asking.

:cool:


He lives in the looney left(ist) coast state of California! :tongueout:

Lone Kimono
05-23-2012, 20:57
I'd love to find a good Baton. I have years of martial arts training though. It would be a lot more concealable than one of my sticks. I've read the OP ask a few times if anyone knew where to get one. I'd appreciate the help as well.

lawman800
05-24-2012, 01:01
He lives in the looney left(ist) coast state of California! :tongueout:

You're being very gracious in your description.:supergrin:

4Rules
06-04-2012, 11:16
...I've read the OP ask a few times if anyone knew where to get one. I'd appreciate the help as well.

Brownells (http://www.policestore.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=baton/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=baton)