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Paul7
05-23-2012, 14:08
http://questionevolution.blogspot.com/2012/05/internet-atheism-and-skepticism-thrill.html

Note every day there are 83,000 more professing Christians and 300 fewer atheists in the world.

ColdSteelNail
05-23-2012, 14:13
Consider the source.

Paul7
05-23-2012, 15:27
You mean this?

"Here are some web traffic graphs from leading atheists websites taken from the leading website web traffic companies of Alexa, Quantcast and Compete"

void *
05-23-2012, 15:42
Yeah, about that ... It's interesting that they don't show data for comparable pro-creationism sites.

Sarge1400
05-23-2012, 18:17
"....which indicated that each day there are now 800 less atheists in world, 1,100 less non-religious (agnostics) in the world and 83,000 additional people professing to be Christians."

Why is it that those "professing" to be christians only count when you are trying to show strength in numbers? If someone who professes to be a christian does something very un-christianlike, your standard response is that they aren't a 'true christian'.

countrygun
05-23-2012, 18:39
"....which indicated that each day there are now 800 less atheists in world, 1,100 less non-religious (agnostics) in the world and 83,000 additional people professing to be Christians."

Why is it that those "professing" to be christians only count when you are trying to show strength in numbers? If someone who professes to be a christian does something very un-christianlike, your standard response is that they aren't a 'true christian'.


Well it's nice to know if an atheist commits a heinous crime that you will be the first to say "that was very atheist of him"

void *
05-23-2012, 18:53
Well it's nice to know if an atheist commits a heinous crime that you will be the first to say "that was very atheist of him"

First, you're assuming that "law abiding" is in the set of attributes of theists and not in the set of attributes of atheists. Which is demonstrably not true (That is not an attribute locked to whether or not someone is a theist or an atheist). For proof of this, consider that for both theists and atheists, there have been people who committed and were arrested and convicted of crimes, and people who haven't.

Second, your comment misses the point entirely (although this wouldn't be the first time someone has thrown a verbal jab rather than an actual considered response), the point is that there's a double standard: When it's good to have more people be Christian for a particular argument, everybody who professes to be Christian gets counted, when it's bad to have a particular person count as a Christian, the claim is made that they're not "true Christians".

In other words, either count them all, or don't, don't do it one way when it's convenient and another when it's not.

creaky
05-23-2012, 19:18
First, you're assuming that "law abiding" is in the set of attributes of theists and not in the set of attributes of atheists. Which is demonstrably not true (That is not an attribute locked to whether or not someone is a theist or an atheist). For proof of this, consider that for both theists and atheists, there have been people who committed and were arrested and convicted of crimes, and people who haven't.

Second, your comment misses the point entirely (although this wouldn't be the first time someone has thrown a verbal jab rather than an actual considered response), the point is that there's a double standard: When it's good to have more people be Christian for a particular argument, everybody who professes to be Christian gets counted, when it's bad to have a particular person count as a Christian, the claim is made that they're not "true Christians".

In other words, either count them all, or don't, don't do it one way when it's convenient and another when it's not.

So, I take it you'll be counting uncle Joe Stalin as one of your own from now on?

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void *
05-23-2012, 19:27
So, I take it you'll be counting uncle Joe Stalin as one of your own from now on?

If he actually didn't believe in deities, then he actually didn't believe in deities.

That does not mean that taking his actions and saying that all atheists would do so is any more justifiable than taking the actions of a single member of any group (Christians included) and alleging that they will all act like that one member (Without justification. For instance, I don't think it's unreasonable to guage a higher probability of prayer for Christians vs. atheists. That doesn't mean that anyone should claim a higher probability of criminal acts from atheists, especially given that data suggests otherwise).

countrygun
05-23-2012, 19:28
So, I take it you'll be counting uncle Joe Stalin as one of your own from now on?

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Beat me to it.

If a socialist suddenly wins a bundle of money, doesn't share with anyone and establishes a capitalist business enterprise and votes a Republican ticket, is he still a socialist?

void *
05-23-2012, 19:33
Then this entire thread is meaningless, as there's no point in claiming that anyone can state that 83,000 people are suddenly becoming "true Christians". There's absolutely no way to measure that, by the criteria you are stating.

countrygun
05-23-2012, 19:41
Then this entire thread is meaningless, as there's no point in claiming that anyone can state that 83,000 people are suddenly becoming "true Christians". There's absolutely no way to measure that, by the criteria you are stating.


The heck of it is I agree with this point.

I was responding to Sarge1400's post. I wouldn't have entered the argument until I saw someone not making sense merely because they got a chance to bash Christians.

I wish Sarge would answer the question I posed in my last post in this thread.

void *
05-23-2012, 19:51
I wouldn't have entered the argument until I saw someone not making sense merely because they got a chance to bash Christians.


I don't see his post as 'merely because they got a chance to bash Christians'.

He was stating that the standard changes based on whether or not it's convenient for professors of Christianity to be counted.

Paul7, for instance, posted this thread, yet he also made this post:

Not this again. Is it possible for one to claim to be a Christian (or Democrat, or American, or American Indian, etc.) and not really be one?

I don't consider Paul7's behavior to mean that all people who profess to be Christians will behave as he does. However, I do see that as direct evidence that criticizing "Count 'em if they say they are when it's good for us, claim they're not really if it's bad for us" is valid. It's not that all Christians do it. It's that some people who profess to be Christian right here on this board do it. (Edited to add: Note that Sarge's post clearly says "you", and "your standard response" and Paul7 is the OP. I don't view that as indicting Christians. I view that as responding to Paul7. Perhaps Sarge1400 will clarify his intent, but I don't see it as being unclear in the first place)

Sarge1400
05-23-2012, 19:58
The heck of it is I agree with this point.

Then that makes three of us that agree.

I was responding to Sarge1400's post. I wouldn't have entered the argument until I saw someone not making sense merely because they got a chance to bash Christians.

I wasn't bashing christians, I was bashing Paul7's habit of counting someone as a christian only when it suits his agenda.

I wish Sarge would answer the question I posed in my last post in this thread.

My answer is "I don't know." Same as with christians, what is the true measurement? Can one simply profess, or are other metrics required?

countrygun
05-23-2012, 20:17
Then that makes three of us that agree.



I wasn't bashing christians, I was bashing Paul7's habit of counting someone as a christian only when it suits his agenda.



My answer is "I don't know." Same as with christians, what is the true measurement? Can one simply profess, or are other metrics required?


Thanks for the response.

My answer to the last would be (FWIW) with a lot of things in this world 'you are until you aren't"

For instance, fraternal organizations, I'll make one up so as not to offend. "The Fraternal Order of Porcupines" (FOPs) If you pledge to be honest, and you are caught embezzling from your business partner, it is fair to say that you WERE a FOP, but you are no longer a "good" FOP, and may be kicked out. It truly is to be expected, tho unwanted to be sure, that people will fall astray from rules.


I just see a lot of folks bashing Christian for their religion and Christians themselves not being perfect, but I never met a Christian who claimed to be.

Nothing is perfect and as long as I don't see Christians crashing planes into buildings, or beheading folks on the internet, I'll not bother them.

G26S239
05-23-2012, 21:12
You mean this?

"Here are some web traffic graphs from leading atheists websites taken from the leading website web traffic companies of Alexa, Quantcast and Compete"
What does that have to do with being atheist? Because someone no longer visits such websites they are no longer atheist? I suppose that logic(?) makes sense if god as a Dr Doolittle who makes donkeys talk makes sense. :tongueout: I have never visited an atheist website. That does not mean I am not an atheist. I just don't need anyone else to verify my beliefs.

JBnTX
05-23-2012, 22:17
There's only two kinds of people.
Those who believe in God, and those who will.

Animal Mother
05-24-2012, 02:04
Yeah, about that ... It's interesting that they don't show data for comparable pro-creationism sites. or for Christian sites in general.

Vic Hays
05-24-2012, 07:43
Then this entire thread is meaningless, as there's no point in claiming that anyone can state that 83,000 people are suddenly becoming "true Christians". There's absolutely no way to measure that, by the criteria you are stating.

First off the article says professing , not true.

Secondly, the existence of God is not determined by how many followers He accumulates or how many atheists scoff.

Third, the article shows that for some reason Christianity is more attractive than atheism.

Fourth, Christianity meets needs that I have that atheism does not even address. Perhaps that is why so many people are coming to a realization that they need God in their lives.

Jesus loves you void.

Animal Mother
05-24-2012, 07:46
First off the article says professing , not true.

Secondly, the existence of God is not determined by how many followers He accumulates or how many atheists scoff.

Third, the article shows that for some reason Christianity is more attractive than atheism.

Fourth, Christianity meets needs that I have that atheism does not even address. Perhaps that is why so many people are coming to a realization that they need God in their lives.

Jesus loves you void.God exists because you need him to exist?

void *
05-24-2012, 09:04
First off the article says professing , not true.

Why do you think this goes against anything I've said? This also underscores the point that Paul7 likes to have it one way when it's convenient, and another when it's not.

Secondly, the existence of God is not determined by how many followers He accumulates or how many atheists scoff.

I challenge you to find a single post by me anywhere that suggests that the truth rests on how many believers there are, how many atheists there are, or how many atheists are scoffing. In fact, I would be surprised if any atheist here on the board has ever really alleged that it's a numbers game.

Syclone538
05-24-2012, 09:33
...
Secondly, the existence of God is not determined by how many followers He accumulates or how many atheists scoff.
...

Some theists argue otherwise.

...
Third, the article shows that for some reason Christianity is more attractive than atheism.

Fourth, Christianity meets needs that I have that atheism does not even address. Perhaps that is why so many people are coming to a realization that they need God in their lives.
...

A placebo might be attractive and fill needs. Heroin could also be attractive and fill needs for some people.

Being attractive and filling needs does not mean it's true.

Paul7
05-24-2012, 10:57
Why do you think this goes against anything I've said? This also underscores the point that Paul7 likes to have it one way when it's convenient, and another when it's not.



You mean like when you guys say Stalin & Co. weren't really atheists?

Read the OP, the 83,000 figure was those professing to be Christians. If you want to switch gears and say some people who claim to be Christians (or atheists) really aren't, that's another topic.

G26S239
05-24-2012, 11:15
There's only two kinds of people.
Those who believe in God, and those who will.
Those who will believe when? The end times are coming when? Jesus will return when? It is all just a centuries long Polish come along joke.

Of course this centuries long joke does serve a purpose. Hal Lindsey and Carole C. Carlson made lots of money hawking end days books. David Koresh got to screw other men's wives and underage daughters hawking tribulations. Lots of others before and after them have done, or will do, the same.

"Verily I say unto to you, THIS GENERATION shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Matthew 24:34 The greatest Polish come along joke ever told.

G26S239
05-24-2012, 11:17
You mean like when you guys say Stalin & Co. weren't really atheists?

Read the OP, the 83,000 figure was those professing to be Christians. If you want to switch gears and say some people who claim to be Christians (or atheists) really aren't, that's another topic.
Yeah Stalin was atheist. Do you extrapolate from that that all atheists are mass murdering communists?

Paul7
05-24-2012, 11:20
Those who will believe when? The end times are coming when? Jesus will return when? It is all just a centuries long Polish come along joke.

You sound like the people who mocked Noah, right before they were drowned.

"Verily I say unto to you, THIS GENERATION shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Matthew 24:34 The greatest Polish come along joke ever told.

This could be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words. Or it could indicate the Jewish people as a race, who were promised existence to the very end. Odd, isn't it, that they among so many other ancient peoples have survived to the present?

Paul7
05-24-2012, 11:22
Yeah Stalin was atheist.

Thank you, you're more honest than some here.

Do you extrapolate from that that all atheists are mass murdering communists?

I don't know, to you extrapolate from your above post all Christians are about selling books and screwing women?

If you are going to hold us accountable for bad things done by Christians, then you are responsible for Stalin.

Vic Hays
05-24-2012, 11:26
Why do you think this goes against anything I've said? This also underscores the point that Paul7 likes to have it one way when it's convenient, and another when it's not.



I challenge you to find a single post by me anywhere that suggests that the truth rests on how many believers there are, how many atheists there are, or how many atheists are scoffing. In fact, I would be surprised if any atheist here on the board has ever really alleged that it's a numbers game.

I was only commenting on your comment; "
Second, your comment misses the point entirely (although this wouldn't be the first time someone has thrown a verbal jab rather than an actual considered response), the point is that there's a double standard: When it's good to have more people be Christian for a particular argument, everybody who professes to be Christian gets counted, when it's bad to have a particular person count as a Christian, the claim is made that they're not "true Christians"."

You were apparently making the comment that the data is not accurate unless people can be classified as professing only or true Christians.

Syclone538
05-24-2012, 11:31
Thank you, you're more honest than some here.



I don't know, to you extrapolate from your above post all Christians are about selling books and screwing women?

If you are going to hold us accountable for bad things done by Christians, then you are responsible for Stalin.

Many people think they should do things for their god, not all of them good.

You can't do things for gods that you don't believe exists.

G26S239
05-24-2012, 11:56
I don't know, to you extrapolate from your above post all Christians are about selling books and screwing women?No. My point is that this imminent tribulation merde from the Bible has left many followers gullible enough to make the doomsayers wealthy at the expense of their own well being.
Example http://www.opposingviews.com/i/nyc-man-spends-retirement-savings-on-may-21-2011-rapture-ads

If you are going to hold us accountable for bad things done by Christians, then you are responsible for Stalin.
That ^^^ answer is disingenuous. I am not responsible for the crimes committed by Joe Stalin and his henchmen whether you believe I am or not. I am not a communist and never have been.

You refusing to answer yes or no, and clearly implying that any answer you give is dependent on whether I hold you responsible for the actions of Koresh or Westboro Baptist, is lame in the extreme Paul.

I asked you a question and you treat it like a negotiation instead of answering honestly. I do not conclude from that that other christians are as dishonest as you are but I do conclude that you are dishonest in how you chose to duck that question. You should have been a diplomat Paul.

G26S239
05-24-2012, 12:23
You sound like the people who mocked Noah, right before they were drowned.
You can enjoy a good laugh at my expense should tribulation ever happen in your lifetime.



This could be a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem, which occurred about 40 years after Jesus spoke these words. Or it could indicate the Jewish people as a race, who were promised existence to the very end. Odd, isn't it, that they among so many other ancient peoples have survived to the present?
The destruction of Jerusalem doesn't cut it because one city destroyed is hardly more of a tribulation than had ever been. "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of this world to this time, no, nor shall ever be." Matthew 24:21.

I do not find it odd that Jews have kept their old traditions.. As recent as the 19th century people from New Guinea were getting kuru from eating other people's brains. The Hindu religion is still going strong and Mazda Ahura is still worshipped as well. Nothing odd about any of that.

void *
05-24-2012, 12:32
You were apparently making the comment that the data is not accurate unless people can be classified as professing only or true Christians.

Apparently, you've decided to read whatever you want into the words I write. The point I was making in the text you just quoted has nothing to do with the accuracy of the data and everything to do with changing the standard whenever it happens to be convenient.

void *
05-24-2012, 12:41
If you are going to hold us accountable for bad things done by Christians, then you are responsible for Stalin.

Who is trying to hold you accountable for bad things done by Christians who are not you?

I'm already of the mind that you can't hold all Christians responsible for the acts of a few. You let me know when you're willing to apply that standard to non-Christians, as well, because right now, by your actions, you appear to be behaving as if you don't apply the same standard to non-Christians.

Paul7
05-24-2012, 14:14
Who is trying to hold you accountable for bad things done by Christians who are not you?

I'm already of the mind that you can't hold all Christians responsible for the acts of a few. You let me know when you're willing to apply that standard to non-Christians, as well, because right now, by your actions, you appear to be behaving as if you don't apply the same standard to non-Christians.

I don't think we disagree.

Paul7
05-24-2012, 14:19
No. My point is that this imminent tribulation merde from the Bible has left many followers gullible enough to make the doomsayers wealthy at the expense of their own well being.
Example http://www.opposingviews.com/i/nyc-man-spends-retirement-savings-on-may-21-2011-rapture-ads

What does that have to do with God's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ, the point of Christianity.

That ^^^ answer is disingenuous. I am not responsible for the crimes committed by Joe Stalin and his henchmen whether you believe I am or not. I am not a communist and never have been.

You refusing to answer yes or no, and clearly implying that any answer you give is dependent on whether I hold you responsible for the actions of Koresh or Westboro Baptist, is lame in the extreme Paul.

I asked you a question and you treat it like a negotiation instead of answering honestly. I do not conclude from that that other christians are as dishonest as you are but I do conclude that you are dishonest in how you chose to duck that question. You should have been a diplomat Paul.

Right to the name calling, huh? I don't even know what question you're talking about.

What teaching of Jesus was Koresh following?

BTW, Westboro Baptists haven't hurt a fly, and are guilty of nothing more than being idiots. Is that all you've got?

G26S239
05-24-2012, 15:36
Yeah Stalin was atheist. Do you extrapolate from that that all atheists are mass murdering communists?


Right to the name calling, huh? I don't even know what question you're talking about.
I asked you a simple question. You talked around it instead of answering it. That is dishonest. Do you see the bolded sentence above? That is the question I directed at you. It is apparent that it is a question because I placed a question mark at the end of the sentence.

What teaching of Jesus was Koresh following?
I don't believe in the Invisible Friend in the sky so I will leave the argument of what constitutes a proper christian to those of you who do. He did what he did while playing on the gullibility of people who are willing to believe fantastic claims. Why would his claims be considered outlandish to anyone who believes that Balaam's donkey talked to him?

I don't tell self identified christians whether they are christian or not. I also don't claim that bin Laden and company are not muslim. Their self identification is enough for me.

BTW, Westboro Baptists haven't hurt a fly, and are guilty of nothing more than being idiots. Is that all you've got?
Yeah. Just harmless fun in Jesus name. :upeyes:

http://i45.tinypic.com/2f06auv.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2vlnvo9.jpg

void *
05-24-2012, 16:11
I don't think we disagree.

About what the standard should be, or that you're not actually applying that standard to people who aren't Christian, or both?

Paul7
05-24-2012, 17:02
About what the standard should be, or that you're not actually applying that standard to people who aren't Christian, or both?

That atheist and Christians aren't to be held responsible for what others do, as is tried in the post above yours.

Paul7
05-24-2012, 17:06
I asked you a simple question. You talked around it instead of answering it. That is dishonest. Do you see the bolded sentence above? That is the question I directed at you. It is apparent that it is a question because I placed a question mark at the end of the sentence.

Didn't know you want answers to rhetorical questions, of course I don't think all atheists are a risk for Stalin-like behavior. You might want to explain yourself better rather than name-call.

I don't believe in the Invisible Friend in the sky so I will leave the argument of what constitutes a proper christian to those of you who do.

You're dodging my question.

He did what he did while playing on the gullibility of people who are willing to believe fantastic claims. Why would his claims be considered outlandish to anyone who believes that Balaam's donkey talked to him?

It's pretty simple, his views are outlandish because they contradict what Jesus taught.

I don't tell self identified christians whether they are christian or not. I also don't claim that bin Laden and company are not muslim. Their self identification is enough for me.

That's a whole nother topic. IMHO Bin Laden was following the word and deed of the 'prophet'. Jesus harmed nobody.

Yeah. Just harmless fun in Jesus name. :upeyes:

You really can't compare idiotic free speech with a mass murdering atheist.

void *
05-24-2012, 17:11
That atheist and Christians aren't to be held responsible for what others do

So you'll stop bringing up Stalin every third thread, right?

as is tried in the post above yours.

I don't see him trying to hold all Christians responsible for what Westboro does. I see him rebutting your claim that it's just a matter of them being idiots and not hurting a fly. Unless you'd like to allege that attempting to get other people to think like they do, and sometimes succeeding, isn't harm and can't lead to harmful consequences.

Given that, you're erecting a strawman here, and when are you going to get that when people say they think you're dishonest, it's because you do stuff like that?

G26S239
05-24-2012, 18:16
What teaching of Jesus was Koresh following?



You're dodging my question.
That ^^^ one there? It is a ridiculous question to ask an atheist because Koresh self identified as christian, he had several hundred followers that accepted that he was the newest prophet and was opening 7 seals about the time he fried. They were ready to kill and die for their sect and many of them did die. As I mentioned earlier self identification is good enough for me except in rare circumstances like Bill Clinton suddenly not being seen anywhere w/o a bible when he was in deep doo doo. That appeared too contrived for me to accept it at face value.


It's pretty simple, his views are outlandish because they contradict what Jesus taught.
So what? What does that change? "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9. And what do the Catholics address their Priests as? And what is the largest CHRISTIAN denomination in the world?

Lets try another one Paul. "For in the ressurection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30. That seems to work for most denominations but there is one headquartered in SLC Utah whose prophet "corrected" Jesus' misapprehension about celestial marriage and that sect has over 14 million members according to one link I can provide if you need to look.

Right there two separate churches which, with their offshoots, have combined memberships in the high hundreds of millions that appear to be contradicting part of what Jesus is credited with saying.

And how about "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy." How many churches keep the switch over to Sunday because of inertia? When did Yahweh say "Okay forget that Sabbath, start observing Sunday instead."


IMHO Bin Laden was following the word and deed of the 'prophet'. I agree, Islam is clearly vile.



You really can't compare idiotic free speech with a mass murdering atheist.
I was not comparing WBCs vile free speech with mass murder. I was commenting on you not answering a question. Furthermore Stalin was mass murdering people for the communist ideal not for atheism. If I wanted to point out christian mass murders I would have picked an example like Jim Jones, Thomas de Torquemada, Armand Amalric or Matthew Hopkins.

Paul7
05-24-2012, 18:43
That ^^^ one there? It is a ridiculous question to ask an atheist because Koresh self identified as christian,

Which means he was really a Christian? The serial adultery gives the answer away.

he had several hundred followers that accepted that he was the newest prophet and was opening 7 seals about the time he fried. They were ready to kill and die for their sect and many of them did die.

Yes, people who acted contrary to Jesus' teachings. You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse.

As I mentioned earlier self identification is good enough for me except in rare circumstances like Bill Clinton suddenly not being seen anywhere w/o a bible when he was in deep doo doo. That appeared too contrived for me to accept it at face value.

Very possible.

So what? What does that change? "And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9. And what do the Catholics address their Priests as? And what is the largest CHRISTIAN denomination in the world?

I'm not a Catholic, but this seems to be a warning against seeking titles of honor to foster pride. Obviously, we should avoid unreasonable literalism in applying such commands.

Lets try another one Paul. "For in the ressurection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matthew 22:30. That seems to work for most denominations but there is one headquartered in SLC Utah whose prophet "corrected" Jesus' misapprehension about celestial marriage and that sect has over 14 million members according to one link I can provide if you need to look.

Not a Christian group, but a cult. They reject the creeds, which 90+ of Christians agree on.

Right there two separate churches which, with their offshoots, have combined memberships in the high hundreds of millions that appear to be contradicting part of what Jesus is credited with saying.

Minor issues if you're trying to equate with Koresh.

And how about "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy." How many churches keep the switch over to Sunday because of inertia? When did Yahweh say "Okay forget that Sabbath, start observing Sunday instead."

At the time of the New Covenant, see Galatians. The principle still stands, take a day a week to rest and worship. The day was changed to commemorate Jesus' resurrection on Sunday.

I was not comparing WBCs vile free speech with mass murder.

I stand corrected.

I was commenting on you not answering a question. Furthermore Stalin was mass murdering people for the communist ideal not for atheism.

And Koresh wasn't screwing women for Christianity.

If I wanted to point out christian mass murders I would have picked an example like Jim Jones, Thomas de Torquemada, Armand Amalric or Matthew Hopkins.

Never heard of two of them, I suspect they don't quite measure up to Stalin's 38,000 victims a week (at one time) standard.

Your side red herrings have nothing to do with God's offer of salvation through Jesus Christ.

BTW, Jim Jones was closer to you than me.

"By the early 1970s, Jones began deriding traditional Christianity as "fly away religion," rejecting the Bible as being white men’s justification to subordinate women and subjugate people of color and stating that it spoke of a "Sky God" who was no God at all.[12] Jones authored a booklet titled "The Letter Killeth," criticizing the King James Bible.[38] Jones also began preaching that he was the reincarnation of Jesus of Nazareth, Mahatma Gandhi, Buddha, Vladimir Lenin, and Father Divine. In the documentary Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple, former Temple member Hue Fortson, Jr. quoted Jones as saying, "What you need to believe in is what you can see ... If you see me as your friend, I'll be your friend. As you see me as your father, I'll be your father, for those of you that don't have a father ... If you see me as your savior, I'll be your savior. If you see me as your God, I'll be your God."[6]
By the spring of 1976, Jones began openly admitting even to outsiders that he was an atheist.[39] Despite the Temple's fear that the IRS was investigating its religious tax exemption, by 1977 Marceline Jones admitted to the New York Times that, as early as age 18 when he watched his then idol Mao Zedong overthrow the Chinese government, Jim Jones realized that the way to achieve social change through Marxism in the United States was to mobilize people through religion.[35] She stated that "Jim used religion to try to get some people out of the opiate of religion," and had slammed the Bible on the table yelling "I've got to destroy this paper idol!"[35] In one sermon, Jones said that, "You're gonna help yourself, or you'll get no help! There's only one hope of glory; that's within you! Nobody's gonna come out of the sky! There's no heaven up there! We'll have to make heaven down here!"[6]

Wikipedia

G26S239
05-24-2012, 19:58
That No True Christian fallacy regarding Koresh is ridiculous. So anyone that you don't want to be christian is no longer to be considered christian. :upeyes: Do you accept that line of thinking when Muzzie apologists use it to explain why al Qaeda or al Shabaab aren't really muslim?

So I guess next time someone starts explaining to me how Lenin, Stalin, Mengistu or some other murderous dictator is not a true communist I am supposed to accept that excuse?
Forget that Paul. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and so forth, than it is a duck.

So the bible is not to be taken literally? Okay Paul. I guess that gets back to what the meaning of the word is is. On that note I guess the 4th Commandment doesn't really mean keep the sabbath day. Any old day will do apparently.

How do you know Koresh wasn't screwing women and young girls for christianity Paul? Because no true christian would?

And Jim Jones was not a church leader who's followers helped him murder/force suicide on the less zealous of the flock? Funny how that works. At the beginning of this thread simply professing christianity was enough. Now it appears you want to qualify that standard to suit your own worldview.

Paul7
05-24-2012, 20:58
That No True Christian fallacy regarding Koresh is ridiculous. So anyone that you don't want to be christian is no longer to be considered christian.

Jesus said His followers are those who do His will. Was Koresh?

Do you accept that line of thinking when Muzzie apologists use it to explain why al Qaeda or al Shabaab aren't really muslim?

Except they follow the word and deed of the 'prophet'. Jesus harmed nobody. You should drop that PC myth that all religions and cultures are the same.

So the bible is not to be taken literally?

It's meant to be taken in context.

Okay Paul. I guess that gets back to what the meaning of the word is is. On that note I guess the 4th Commandment doesn't really mean keep the sabbath day. Any old day will do apparently.

"Behold, I do a new thing."

How do you know Koresh wasn't screwing women and young girls for christianity Paul? Because no true christian would?

Get back to us when you can show the NT saying that is OK. It says the opposite. Again, it's pretty simple.

And Jim Jones was not a church leader who's followers helped him murder/force suicide on the less zealous of the flock?

He said he was an atheist. I believe him.

Gunhaver
05-24-2012, 21:29
Thank you, you're more honest than some here.



I don't know, to you extrapolate from your above post all Christians are about selling books and screwing women?

If you are going to hold us accountable for bad things done by Christians, then you are responsible for Stalin.

Really? Lets take a closer look at that analogy.

What did Stalin do that so many people find offensive? Killed 20 million people. How many people have the average atheist killed? Far less than 1. How many atheists that do commit murder do so in the name of atheism? How often do you see atheists piling into meeting centers to plot their next mass murders and going door to door and screaming from the street corners about how everybody else should join their murderous cause or else? I'd have to say that if any of that was going on then Bill O'reilly would have surely let us know about it.

Now, what do the Christians that are typically met with opposition do? They fight against the civil rights of women, minorities and homosexuals and impose their beliefs and "values" on other people against their will. How often does the average Christian do this? Frequently. How often do you see them pile into meeting centers to plot their anti-civil rights agenda and going door to door and screaming from the street corners that everyone better join their rights trashing cause or else? Every damn Saturday and Sunday.

Now Stalin was able to do what he did because he was in power. He didn't have the clout to just go out and starting shooting people and then starving them when the bullets got too expensive at first. He had to work his way up and nobody stopped him along the way.

Christians are able to do what they do because they are the majority in this country and they have power. The government still lets them vote on the degree of freedom of others and they revel in it. That's changing now because some people are trying to stop them along the way.

So you actually have more in common with Stalin than any atheist. You spread your will against the will of others, using legislation instead of force. Judging by the insane rants of a lot of Christians and the deafening silence of the majority of the rest you're on the verge of rounding up or killing most of the opposition to establish your version of a perfect society and the only thing stopping you is the opposition.

G26S239
05-24-2012, 21:48
Jesus said His followers are those who do His will. Was Koresh? He was all about scripture.

Except they follow the word and deed of the 'prophet'. Jesus harmed nobody.
Your argument is a fallacy.

You should drop that PC myth that all religions and cultures are the same.
You should stop making crap up as you go along. I have never stated any such thing.

It's meant to be taken in context.
Sure it is. Donkeys talk. Sabbath means sabbath until it means Sunday. This generation might mean this generation or it might mean a few thousand generations away.


"Behold, I do a new thing."
"Oops I stepped on my *&$^"


Get back to us when you can show the NT saying that is OK. It says the opposite. Again, it's pretty simple.
Get back to me when you can show that the buggery of the Catholic church is okay. Or Jimmy Swaggart hiring prostitutes is okay.


He said he was an atheist. I believe him.
So you accept that wiki Quotation at face value but refuse to accept Koresh's stated beliefs and recognize that he could be christian but flawed? So much for those bumper stickers that say Christians Aren't Perfect, Just Forgiven."

Paul7
05-25-2012, 09:07
He was all about scripture.

Nonsense,he openly violated scripture.

Sure it is. Donkeys talk.

IF God exists, miracles are no big deal, and you can't prove He doesn't exist or that His is powerless to act in His creation.

Sabbath means sabbath until it means Sunday.

Now you think He is incapable of changing a day of worship? Strange....

This generation might mean this generation or it might mean a few thousand generations away.

That is a passage I am agnostic on. I suspect that for you, like Mark Twain, it isn't the parts of the Bible you don't understand that bother you, it's the parts you do understand.

Get back to me when you can show that the buggery of the Catholic church is okay. Or Jimmy Swaggart hiring prostitutes is okay.

Why would I do that, and what's your point? Jesus predicted such wolves in sheep's clothing.

Paul7
05-25-2012, 09:11
Really? Lets take a closer look at that analogy.

What did Stalin do that so many people find offensive? Killed 20 million people. How many people have the average atheist killed? Far less than 1. How many atheists that do commit murder do so in the name of atheism? How often do you see atheists piling into meeting centers to plot their next mass murders and going door to door and screaming from the street corners about how everybody else should join their murderous cause or else? I'd have to say that if any of that was going on then Bill O'reilly would have surely let us know about it.

Now, what do the Christians that are typically met with opposition do? They fight against the civil rights of women, minorities and homosexuals and impose their beliefs and "values" on other people against their will. How often does the average Christian do this? Frequently. How often do you see them pile into meeting centers to plot their anti-civil rights agenda and going door to door and screaming from the street corners that everyone better join their rights trashing cause or else? Every damn Saturday and Sunday.

Now Stalin was able to do what he did because he was in power. He didn't have the clout to just go out and starting shooting people and then starving them when the bullets got too expensive at first. He had to work his way up and nobody stopped him along the way.

Christians are able to do what they do because they are the majority in this country and they have power. The government still lets them vote on the degree of freedom of others and they revel in it. That's changing now because some people are trying to stop them along the way.

So you actually have more in common with Stalin than any atheist. You spread your will against the will of others, using legislation instead of force. Judging by the insane rants of a lot of Christians and the deafening silence of the majority of the rest you're on the verge of rounding up or killing most of the opposition to establish your version of a perfect society and the only thing stopping you is the opposition.

What a load of baloney. Stalin did what he did because he didn't believe in God, and had no restraints. This is from Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, imprisoned by atheists for his beliefs:

"The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The Communist torturers often said, 'There is no God, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish.' I have heard one torturer even say, 'I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart.' He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflicted on prisoners."

FYI, it was exactly Christians who stopped the British slave trade, not secular humanists, and many Christians were behind the civil rights movements. As far as gays, there is no constitutional right for people with same-sex feelings to marry, as even Elena Kagan says.

ALL laws are an imposition of morality, and Christians have as much right to influence public policy as you do.

Gunhaver
05-25-2012, 14:33
What a load of baloney. Stalin did what he did because he didn't believe in God, and had no restraints. This is from Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, imprisoned by atheists for his beliefs:

"The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The Communist torturers often said, 'There is no God, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish.' I have heard one torturer even say, 'I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart.' He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflicted on prisoners."

FYI, it was exactly Christians who stopped the British slave trade, not secular humanists, and many Christians were behind the civil rights movements. As far as gays, there is no constitutional right for people with same-sex feelings to marry, as even Elena Kagan says.

ALL laws are an imposition of morality, and Christians have as much right to influence public policy as you do.

Come on now Paul, is it your tactic to be so dense that nobody wants to argue with you? How many secular humanists or atheists were around during the slave trade to stop anything? Nearly everybody in Europe or America was Christian so Christians were responsible for everything that went on, good or bad. I'd link you back to the intellectual dishonesty thread but I really think the concept is lost on you.

It was also certainly Christians who held up the bible as defense of slavery on this side of the pond.

And again I ask you since you so conveniently ignored my points, where are the congregations of atheists plotting and committing murders and gang rapes and all other manner of ill s--t simply because they don't believe they have anyone to answer to? You accuse atheists of crimes they don't commit. I accuse many Christians of violating the rights of others and you're response is that they never had those rights in the first place??? :rofl:

But remember that one mean old atheist mass murderer that killed millions because he was atheist? What about that other guy that was Christian and still killed millions? What about the Crusades and the Spanish inquisition and every other instance where somebody wiped out millions in the name of god? That's all cool because they believed in god but if you don't believe in god then killing millions is just wrong.

Did women and blacks not have a constitutional right to be treated as equals? Because it was certainly Christians that raised hell about those movements as well.

427
05-25-2012, 15:15
Clearly, Martin Luther was following the teachings of Christ when he wrote the anti-semetic On the Jews and Their Lies and Of the Unknowable Name and the Generations of Christ.

In On the Jews and Their lies Luther that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness, afforded no legal protection, and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them".

Didn't something like this happen in Germany 70 years ago?

Was Luther also following Christ's teachings when he railed against the Catholics? They weren't "true" christians, according to him. We all know about the animosity between Protestants and Catholics that goes on to this day. We even see it on some of the posts on this very forum.

G26S239
05-25-2012, 15:39
Nonsense,he openly violated scripture.So did Jimmy Swaggart with his whores and the current Pope by covering up fot child molesters.



IF God exists, miracles are no big deal, and you can't prove He doesn't exist or that His is powerless to act in His creation.The burden of proof is on your side. Donkeys talk? Prove it. Shrek doesn't count.



Now you think He is incapable of changing a day of worship? Strange....It is indeed strange that the commandments are flexible.



That is a passage I am agnostic on. I suspect that for you, like Mark Twain, it isn't the parts of the Bible you don't understand that bother you, it's the parts you do understand. Moving the goal posts? Great tactic. Not going to do it. This Generation either means This Generation or it is meaningless drivel. You trying to worm out of that one brings to mind Billy Jeff Clinton's infamous "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is."

What a load of baloney. Stalin did what he did because he didn't believe in God, and had no restraints. This is from Pastor Richard Wurmbrand, imprisoned by atheists for his beliefs:

"The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The Communist torturers often said, 'There is no God, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish.' I have heard one torturer even say, 'I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart.' He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflicted on prisoners."
That ^^^ is a bunch of bs right there. He was imprisoned by Communists who were practicing Communist methods of keeping the population in check. You are dishonest in the extreme Paul. I asked you before if you thought all atheists are mass murdering communists. When you finally answered, after trying to wiggle out of answering, you answered "of course I don't believe all atheists are at risk of Stalin like behavior" and now you are back to the same crap.

Paul7
05-25-2012, 16:31
So did Jimmy Swaggart with his whores and the current Pope by covering up fot child molesters.

And so are you with your rebellion against God. You're no better.

What happened with Swaggart is a fulfillment of what Jesus said would happen. What's your point? You act like someone was claiming Christians are perfect.


The burden of proof is on your side. Donkeys talk? Prove it.

If a donkey really did talk 3,000 years ago, what evidence would you expect to see today other than what we have?

Moving the goal posts? Great tactic. Not going to do it. This Generation either means This Generation or it is meaningless drivel. You trying to worm out of that one brings to mind Billy Jeff Clinton's infamous "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is."

So the understanding of that passage is all that's keeping you from becoming a Christian? I don't understand every passage of the Bible, but it does contain all things needed for salvation.

That ^^^ is a bunch of bs right there. He was imprisoned by Communists who were practicing Communist methods of keeping the population in check. You are dishonest in the extreme Paul.

You've got nothing to bring here but namecalling and cheap shots. Impressive how you fly off the handle when the actions of your fellow atheists are brought up.

I asked you before if you thought all atheists are mass murdering communists. When you finally answered, after trying to wiggle out of answering, you answered "of course I don't believe all atheists are at risk of Stalin like behavior" and now you are back to the same crap.

I didn't answer at first because it was such a stupid question.

G26S239
05-25-2012, 18:58
And so are you with your rebellion against God. You're no better.
Rebellion against god? I don't even believe the invisible friend in the sky exists.

What happened with Swaggart is a fulfillment of what Jesus said would happen. What's your point? You act like someone was claiming Christians are perfect.
You conveniently leave out the Pope I mentioned. My point, that seems to be going right over your head* is that christianity is in good part, what its leaders and followers do. Just like Islam is known for its fruits, so is christianity. Of course their are people like Danny Thomas who balance that out on the good side to a great extent.
* Probably deliberate obtuseness on your part.


If a donkey really did talk 3,000 years ago, what evidence would you expect to see today other than what we have?
Claiming a donkey talked at all is ludicrous.


So the understanding of that passage is all that's keeping you from becoming a Christian? I don't understand every passage of the Bible, but it does contain all things needed for salvation.
There you go making unwarranted assumptions again. The entire concept of an invisible friend, or group of friends, in the sky who made the earth and all the plants, animals and people on it in 6 days is a ridiculous concept. The fact that the bible also claims that donkeys talk and and that Methuselah lived 969 years is just further evidence of how far removed from reality that belief system is.

You've got nothing to bring here but namecalling and cheap shots. Impressive how you fly off the handle when the actions of your fellow atheists are brought up.
Responding to the garbage you post is not flying off the handle. It is responding to your posts. I despise Stalin for his crimes. Will you condemn Yahweh for his? Or will you continue to worship the greatest genocidal maniac that you believe exists?

Stalin murdered 20 million or so and is rightly considered horrid for doing so. Your mythical boy Yahweh drowned all but 8 people on earth according to one of the fairy tales so you worship the greatest genocidal maniac there is, if the fairy tales are to be believed. You condemn Stalin for mass murder. Will you hold Yahweh to the same standard and condemn him for mass murder as well? I doubt that you will condemn Yahweh because it is fear of him that motivates you to do right. Just like most people in the USSR were too terrified to speak out against Stalin. Yahweh keeps you in line through fear and intimidation.


I didn't answer at first because it was such a stupid question.First you claimed that you thought it was a rhetorical question. Now you claim the reason you did not answer is because it is a stupid question. In answer to that question you said that you do not believe all atheists are at risk for Stalin like behavior and then you jump right back into claiming that Stalin being a mass murderer because of his atheism. What a load of merde.

Your boy David had Uriah murdered after coveting and then screwing Uriah's wife Bathsheba. Somehow David's status of being handpicked by Yahweh didn't prevent that scummy behavior.
Should I conclude that because David was a believer he committed murder and adultery? :upeyes:

In any case the reason I don't commit murder is because I believe it is wrong, not because some invisible entity is going to torture me for eternity. You might need that threat of punishment to keep you from stealing, raping, committing murder or other crimes. I don't.

Kingarthurhk
05-25-2012, 19:12
God exists because you need him to exist?

Actually, you have that backwards. We need God so that we might exist.

Animal Mother
05-25-2012, 21:22
Actually, you have that backwards. We need God so that we might exist. Why? If we can explain how we came into existence without resort to the supernatural, why would we need it? Especially considering the complete dearth of evidence that anything supernatural exists.

Animal Mother
05-25-2012, 21:27
If a donkey really did talk 3,000 years ago, what evidence would you expect to see today other than what we have? You keep bringing this kind of thing up, but apparently either don't realize or ignore that it would apply equally to any beliefs or myths from any religion, not just yours. If Muhammed rode Buraq to the farthest mosque in 621, what evidence would you expect to see today other than what we have? If Odin hung nine days on Yggdrasil, pierced by his own spear, what evidence would you expect to see today other than what we have?