Korean War Machine Gun Bring Back...Legal or No? [Archive] - Glock Talk

PDA

View Full Version : Korean War Machine Gun Bring Back...Legal or No?


Nalapombu
05-23-2012, 21:19
Hey all,

Just had a buddy call and ask my opinion on the legality of a full auto arm. Turns out a buddy of his, I don't know who, had an uncle that died and he was his sole heir. The guy had a lot of guns and in his safe was what was described to me as a "Korean War souvenir full auto rifle." Have no idea what it is.

My friend wanted to know if there was a way that this bring back could be transferred to his nephew and be legal today. I told him that if it had not been registered in the 1968 amnesty and was "off the records" until his death then it COULD NOT be transferred to an individual for ownership. Am I right? Or is there a way that his heir, his nephew, can own this souvenir and have it remain operational?

If he can't have it transferred to his name and own it, can he sell it to a Class 3 dealer or an SOT?

What can he do with it....turn it in?

Thanks for the help.

Nalajr

ChiefWPD
05-23-2012, 21:22
I don't know of any way this type of firearm can be made legal to possess now. If you think it has historical value perhaps it can be donated to a legitimate military museum.

Cole125
05-23-2012, 21:27
Just tell him to shut up about it. Keep it, don't tell anyone. Don't take it anywhere and get busted with it.

Wyoming
05-23-2012, 21:35
If you want Internet advice I'm game.

Need to contact a Lawyer.

This will give you protection from prosecutions until it is determined if firearm was ever papered. The ATF will do the search and if it is detriment that it is legal to own it can be transfered to heir.

If it was never papered then the Lawyer will have to surrender firearm and no one goes to jail.

If your buddy keeps firearm that is full auto and is caught with it someday he will have to hire a lawyer. It will cost a lot more and hopefully be able to plead guilty to a felony and maybe get probation.

427
05-23-2012, 21:58
As Wyoming susggested, get a lawyer, a cut out, when dealing with something like this.

No matter what happens, it would be in your "buddy's" best interest to keep his mouth shut.

Nalapombu
05-23-2012, 23:22
Thanks all for the advice. I figured as much and told him so. All but the lawyer part.

The only thing I do not know is whether he could legally sell it to a Class 3 dealer or some other legal entity like a manufacturer or such.

Nalajr

427
05-23-2012, 23:41
Demil the receiver, then it's just a parts kit.

MajorD
05-24-2012, 00:01
if it is indeed an unregistered full auto it is illegal and there is no mechanism to make legal anymore. It needs to be surrendered or big trouble is possilbe.

MrMurphy
05-24-2012, 00:19
Having dealt with the ATF involving a superlowserial number Thompson that a law firm confiscated along with the rest of a guy's belongings in a case (something to do with unpaid fees, and they seized all his assets?) I reassembled the Thompson, determined yes, it did have a fully functional group therapy option, and immediately told them to contact the ATF.

ATF contacted me on specifics of the piece, which was one of the best condition Thompsons i've ever seen (serial was four digit.....and started with 1), a classic vertical front foregrip M1928 Colt. Turned out to be unregistered and unpapered, etc from what they told me, though I never did find out the ending to the story.

He needs to talk to a law firm and the ATF immediately, they DON'T play around.

Nalapombu
05-24-2012, 02:25
I stressed to him that in this day of terrorsism and ner-do-wells behind every rock and people getting busted all the time for "plotting" violence against the government and its people, that the FEDS would DEFINITELY NOT play around with him if he got caught on a range somewhere shooting it and he would certainly be looking at jail time.

I don't know the guy that has the firearms, but the guy that called me, I have been best friends with him for over 30 years and he calls me all the time with gun questions. He wanted to know because the guy that inherited it and the rest of the guns is wanting to sell them. The guy offered it to my buddy for $1,700 cash. I told him my personal opinion was to stay clear. One reason is that I have already helped him 4 times go through NFA processes to get his 4 suppressors. Someone that is already on the books, so to say, with NFA items that are totally legit has no business putting himself and his family in the position of financial ruin and a felony record with jail time. It's just way too chancy to even consider for me.
At the end of the conversation he told me he was going to pass, but I can't control what he does, just give him my personal warnings and advice should he proceed with buying it. I don't think he will buy it, but my feeling is that the guy that inherited it is a country guy and doesn't know much about the law and will either keep it or sell it to some other redneck.

The ONLY thing I did tell him on a positive side was that he could shut his mouth, keep it, and hope that another amnesty comes about, which is VERY SLIM hopes considering that the last and only one was in 1968. Even then the ATF would be bound to question whose possession it was in for the last many years until that pie in the sky amnesty occurred.

If I was close to my Uncle or family member and were in the same situation, it would kill my soul to have it destroyed. I think I would have it demilled and try to keep it.....or keep my trap shut about it for the rest of my life.

Thanks all for the REAL info.

Glad I told him right.

What a resource GT is and always has been.

Nalajr

DFin
05-24-2012, 06:38
He could consider hiring a lawyer to contact the ATF to see if it was ever registered.

nbkky71
05-24-2012, 12:16
If the gun is lawfully registered as an NFA firearm then it is possible for a legal heir to take ownership.

If it's not a legal gun, then I believe there is little recourse but to surrender it.

Zombie Steve
05-24-2012, 12:48
Craigslist.



:whistling:

Adjuster
05-24-2012, 17:44
My first step would be to confirm it is full auto capable. The average non gun person looks at an AK and assumes its a machine gun.



/

Decguns
05-24-2012, 18:08
9.5.3.3 Uncertainty about the registration status of decedents’ firearms. In some cases, anexecutor or administrator of an estate may be uncertain whether the decedent’s firearms are registered to the decedent in the NFRTR. Perhaps the executor or administrator is unable tolocate the decedent’s registration documents. As discussed in
Section 9.2, if the decedent’s firearms are not registered to him/her in the NFRTR, the firearms are contraband and may not be lawfully possessed or transferred. If the executor or administrator cannot locate the decedent’s registration documents, he/she should contact the NFA Branch in writing and inquire about the firearms’ registration status. This inquiry should be accompanied by documents showing the executor’s or administrator’s authority under State law to represent the decedent and dispose of
the decedent’s firearms. Although ATF is generally prohibited from disclosing tax information, including the identity of persons to whom NFA firearms are registered, ATF may disclose such information to persons lawfully representing registrants of NFA firearms.


9.5.3.4 Unregistered estate firearms. Should an estate contain NFA firearms not registered to the decedent, these firearms are contraband that may not be lawfully possessed or transferred. Where these are found within an estate, the executor or administrator should contact his/her local ATF office and arrange for their disposal.

WiskyT
05-24-2012, 19:39
The newest American Rifleman I just got (online) tells about a water cooled machine gun found in a library's storage area. It was one of the ones captured by Sgt. Alvin York. the library had no idea of what to do with it since it couldn't be transfered and had to be destroyed. Ultimately, they were able to donate it to a museum in TN as that was the only acceptable place for it to go other than to destroy it.

WoodenPlank
05-24-2012, 19:44
if it is indeed an unregistered full auto it is illegal and there is no mechanism to make legal anymore. It needs to be surrendered or big trouble is possilbe.

Surrendered or rendered inoperable per ATF procedures for that specific weapon. As someone else mentioned, if it's rare, or otherwise of historical significance, it could possibly be donated to a museum.

The Hughes amendment really needs to be ****ing repealed.

mboylan
05-24-2012, 19:58
If it's part of an estate, most likely someone knows about it. If someone knows about it, they could talk. It's not worth several years in prison.

See if it has bring back papers or is amnesty registered. Get a lawyer yesterday.

armedcitizen
05-25-2012, 06:21
It can be done if the gun was registered by the person that brought it back. A friend of mine did so with a Chinese burp-gun that her father brought back and had registered. She just sold it for $12000.00.

The_Gun_Guru
05-25-2012, 06:40
My "holy grail" is a Vietnam War Amnesty AK-47 bring-back:wow:

I have only seen one for sale in the past 25 years and it was $15,000!!!!:faint:If I ever win the lottery it will be one of the first things I buy!


My quest continues......



TGG

Sniperfox
05-26-2012, 20:59
Tell him to give it to me. I'll carry the burden.:supergrin:

Markasaurus
05-27-2012, 00:25
I think the best easiest course would be to demill the receiver and sell the parts.
The advice about needing lawyers is certainly correct. When you deal with lawyers i'd be amazed if you get out of the deal for anything less then $2000. Unless the weapon is going to sell for big money, i'm talking at least 5 figures, that would be an obstacle, to me. Because as soon as it gets out that someone possesses a full auto weapon, legal status unknown, a lot of people are going to take an interest in them and not in the good way. Handle a deal like that wrong and you can wind up in a federal pen, and they will take away your right to own a gun FOR LIFE.

If in doubt, i'd grind it into scrap, with no one the wiser.

ca survivor
05-27-2012, 07:44
can it be made semi auto ?

banger
05-27-2012, 08:14
can it be made semi auto ?

The LAW is....

Once a machine gun...always a machine gun.

That is why you can't buy M-2 carbines.

Receiver wise, there is no difference between the M-1 and the M-2.

It's a matter of law.

Glockdude1
05-27-2012, 08:43
The LAW is....

Once a machine gun...always a machine gun.

That is why you can't buy M-2 carbines.

Receiver wise, there is no difference between the M-1 and the M-2.It's a matter of law.

:agree:

WoodenPlank
05-27-2012, 08:52
The LAW is....

Once a machine gun...always a machine gun.

That is why you can't buy M-2 carbines.

Receiver wise, there is no difference between the M-1 and the M-2.

It's a matter of law.

Yep.

The only recourse is to strip the marts, and demil the receiver. If you could somehow find a semi-auto only receiver, and any other parts needed to make it a legal semi-only weapon (ex: In an AR/M16 platform, use of full auto trigger parts in a semi-only receiver can still land you in prison, but a full-auto bolt carrier group is legal), then you could keep it in that configuration. Otherwise, you're back to destroying the receiver per ATF requirements (usually cutting into 3+ parts at specific locations) and selling off the remaining parts.

Sgt_Gold
05-30-2012, 18:54
As most posters have said, contact a lawyer that specializes in gun law. This advice is not to be taken lightly. If your friend is ever caught with an unregistered class III firearm it's 100% that he'll end up a felon.

Now for the good news. You can DEWAT the gun and sell it for big bucks. For all who are confused, I'll explain. A few years back I was transfering a rifle into NY from out of state. The shipping FFL turned out to be a guy who specialized in buying DEWAT class III collections and remnaufacturing them into working dealer sample class III maching guns.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, here's how it's legal. As long as a nasty, illegal MG is subject to DEWAT, you get paperwork that allows you to legally own the parts that are now no longer a class III firearm. An FFL with a class III manufacturing license can buy a DEWAT firearn and return it to legal full auto status. The remanufactured firearm in not transferable to a private individual, but it is to a corporation or a trust corp set up for that purpose.

The reason this is legal is it's not manufacturing, it's restoring a DEWAT to operating condition with the proper ATF paperwork.

Adjuster
05-30-2012, 20:40
DEWAT??? You typed it 5 times in capitol letters so it must be important.



/

samurairabbi
05-30-2012, 20:52
DEWAT??? You typed it 5 times in capitol letters so it must be important.
/

DEWAT - DEactivated WAr Trophy

MstrPara
05-31-2012, 05:05
My first step would be to confirm it is full auto capable. The average non gun person looks at an AK and assumes its a machine gun.



/

Great advice on this thread. First step, though, is to confirm what you're dealing with.

Patchman
05-31-2012, 06:34
I'll second that you should first confirm what you got.

robotoid
05-31-2012, 20:32
fully functional group therapy option

I like this and will be adding it to my repertoire.

1gewehr
06-01-2012, 07:35
The LAW is....

Once a machine gun...always a machine gun.

It's a matter of law.

Bullcr@p
Show me the law. No such law anywhere.

Having said that. If it were me, I would take every legal meas to keep it from being destroyed. Any original C&R machine gun is probably worth at least $8,000 and possibly much higher. And it is a piece of history.
1) Have the family look VERY carefully to see if there is ANY documentation about the firearm. If so, get with a knowledgeable firearms attorney to make sure ATF knows it is legal. If not, then,
2) Have an attorney check to see if it's on the registry. If not, then,
3) Find a Federally recognized museum that is willing to accept it. If not,
4) It's a parts kit. ATF has the destruction guidelines on their website.
5) Weld it solid as a display model. Deep, solid welds of barrel to receiver, bolt to receiver, no gap between bolt and barrel.
6) Convert to semi-auto. Lots of info online for this.

Glockdude1
06-01-2012, 07:46
Exactly what kind of weapon is it???

:cool:

ak103k
06-01-2012, 08:02
You can DEWAT the gun and sell it for big bucks.
Are you sure about that? Its my understanding that "dewats" had to be registered during the 68 amnesty along with everything else, and also require a transfer. Anything not in the registry at that point, is now considered contraband, including dewats.

If you meant by dewat, removing the receiver and replacing it with a dummy, never mind. :)

Have an attorney check to see if it's on the registry.
This could be hit or miss, and its well known that the registry is a mess and is error ridden. If you have an NFA item, its very important you keep that paperwork safe, as it may be the only thing that proves youre legal.

Nalapombu
06-01-2012, 19:13
Very interesting stuff fellas. Since I posted what was asked of me and my advice, I have heard nothing more of it. I don't know who the man is my friend was talking about, I DO know what area of the country they both are from and if I were putting a bet on the outcome, I would bet that the heir to the gun will keep it. However, I would not be surprised at all if I heard one day that he sold it to someone back there.

One thing I noticed about reading all the advice and opinions on this case is that it's no wonder how well meaning people easily run afoul of the law with guns. There are so many laws and regulations that even gun experts, like you all, cannot fully agree on the meanings. Granted everyone knows that it would be an illegal weapon as is, but the minutia of it all and how it's interpreted is just amazing. I guess that's what courts and lawyers are for.

Thanks again all.

Nalajr

banger
06-01-2012, 19:39
Bullcr@p
Show me the law. No such law anywhere.

Having said that. If it were me, I would take every legal meas to keep it from being destroyed. Any original C&R machine gun is probably worth at least $8,000 and possibly much higher. And it is a piece of history.
1) Have the family look VERY carefully to see if there is ANY documentation about the firearm. If so, get with a knowledgeable firearms attorney to make sure ATF knows it is legal. If not, then,
2) Have an attorney check to see if it's on the registry. If not, then,
3) Find a Federally recognized museum that is willing to accept it. If not,
4) It's a parts kit. ATF has the destruction guidelines on their website.
5) Weld it solid as a display model. Deep, solid welds of barrel to receiver, bolt to receiver, no gap between bolt and barrel.
6) Convert to semi-auto. Lots of info online for this.


First...You are wrong and giving DANGEROUS advise.

Firstly, you CAN NOT take full auto receiver and make it into a LEGAL semi-auto firearm.

This is the reason that someone can not simply "grind off" the lug area of an M-14 rifle and make his own M-1A clone, or simply install a semi-auto trigger group into an M-16 receiver and remain legal.

Secondly, If the weapon is not currently on the B.A.T.F.E. books as a registered "machine gun", it CAN NOT be added now!

The number of LEGAL machine guns. in civilian hands were frozen in 1986. It is IMPOSSIBLE to add any weapons to the list as the law currently stands.

Lastly, Even "IF" the weapon is on the "C&R" list as a type. it still DOES NOT circumvent the restrictions on the registration of new/ unregistered full automatic weapons.

Glockdude1
06-02-2012, 05:15
Very interesting stuff fellas. Since I posted what was asked of me and my advice, I have heard nothing more of it. I don't know who the man is my friend was talking about, I DO know what area of the country they both are from and if I were putting a bet on the outcome, I would bet that the heir to the gun will keep it. However, I would not be surprised at all if I heard one day that he sold it to someone back there.

One thing I noticed about reading all the advice and opinions on this case is that it's no wonder how well meaning people easily run afoul of the law with guns. There are so many laws and regulations that even gun experts, like you all, cannot fully agree on the meanings. Granted everyone knows that it would be an illegal weapon as is, but the minutia of it all and how it's interpreted is just amazing. I guess that's what courts and lawyers are for.

Thanks again all.

Nalajr

Exactly what kind of weapon is it?

:cool:

Trebor
06-02-2012, 06:57
The only way to legally DEWAT an unregistered MG is to destroy the receiver to ATF specs. Basically, you strip off all the parts and torch cut the receiver in two (?) places.

If, and here's a big "if", someone is a legal MG manufacturer they could legally assemble the parts on a newly manufactured receiver as a "post sample" MG. That could be sold to a PD or another dealer (with the proper paperwork).

It's not really accurate to use the term DEWAT here though as "Deactivated War Trophies" was a pre-1968 term that really has no meaning today as today you are no longer allowed to simply plug the barrel or chamber to render a MG inoperable and turn it into a DEWAT. When that stopped being an option, you no longer had the ability to create a DEWAT. Today it's a matter of destroying the receiver and, if you are a MG manufacturer, building a complete new receiver.