Anti-gay rant from pastor Whorley and one of his brilliant supporters [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Gunhaver
05-24-2012, 19:34
The last 15 seconds are so telling. I don't get upset about guys kissing because I don't think about it. It doesn't weigh on my mind to the point that it bugs the hell out of me every minute of every day. I prefer to think about women.

Local Pastor Calls For Death of 'Queers & Homosexuals' - YouTube

And support from one of his staunch followers who just doesn't understand why everyone doesn't understand her point.

Bigoted Church Member Defends Pastor Worley - YouTube

juggy4711
05-24-2012, 21:12
Leave it to the religious to do more harm and make greater fools of themselves than anyone else ever could.

SIGlock
05-24-2012, 22:17
I don't get upset about guys kissing because I don't think about it. It doesn't weigh on my mind to the point that it bugs the hell out of me every minute of every day. I prefer to think about women. [/url]

Just to remind you that they do more than just kissing. You know what I mean? Don't try to make them look too innocent.:supergrin:

The real issue here is: Your moral standard is obviously not the same as the one given in the Bible. So, it's not about what you don't or do think constantly....that gives rise to the problem. Let's be fair now....you are not the only one to think about women all the time. Many of us men do. And probably more than you!!! But our moral standards are not the same as yours. That's the real issue.:whistling:

SIGlock
05-24-2012, 22:21
Leave it to the religious to do more harm and make greater fools of themselves than anyone else ever could.

Why are all the "religious" always have to be....from christanity? I can read you mind.

Other religions in the world (hindu, muslim, buddism, etc.).....are fine. I guess. Not much criticism from the media that I know of. Think about it

Gunhaver
05-24-2012, 22:42
Why are all the "religious" always have to be....from christanity? I can read you mind.

Other religions in the world (hindu, muslim, buddism, etc.).....are fine. I guess. Not much criticism from the media that I know of. Think about it

We've been over all this before. 1st, pointing out the faults of others when confronted is the poorest defense. Why resort to diversionary tactics? 2nd, when Muslims or Hindus are the predominant religion in this country causing most of the problems we'll shift attention to them.

Gunhaver
05-24-2012, 23:12
Just to remind you that they do more than just kissing. You know what I mean? Don't try to make them look too innocent.:supergrin:

The real issue here is: Your moral standard is obviously not the same as the one given in the Bible. So, it's not about what you don't or do think constantly....that gives rise to the problem. Let's be fair now....you are not the only one to think about women all the time. Many of us men do. And probably more than you!!! But our moral standards are not the same as yours. That's the real issue.:whistling:

Yeah, I don't think about anything gay people do. I'm just not that obsessed with it. That's my whole point. You don't see people railing against shellfish or mixed fiber clothing because nobody thinks constantly about those things while feeling tremendous guilt for it.
My moral standard is that it's none of my business what two grown ass adults do between themselves. That's not the same as other's moral standard that they can use ancient text or conjure up fake reasons to control someone's behavior. That's the real issue.

Animal Mother
05-24-2012, 23:25
Just to remind you that they do more than just kissing. You know what I mean? Don't try to make them look too innocent.:supergrin:

The real issue here is: Your moral standard is obviously not the same as the one given in the Bible. So, it's not about what you don't or do think constantly....that gives rise to the problem. Let's be fair now....you are not the only one to think about women all the time. Many of us men do. And probably more than you!!! But our moral standards are not the same as yours. That's the real issue.:whistling:Absolutely true, Gunhaver probably opposes slavery, including selling one's daughter and I dare say he doesn't think the victim of rape shouldn't be punished along with the perpetrator. I don't know how he feels about paying a father 30 pieces of silver and taking his daughter as a wife after raping her, maybe he can comment on that one for us.

Blast
05-24-2012, 23:31
We've been over all this before. 1st, pointing out the faults of others when confronted is the poorest defense. Why resort to diversionary tactics? 2nd, when Muslims or Hindus are the predominant religion in this country causing most of the problems we'll shift attention to them.
The real issue is mentally disturbed atheists who have no life other than to criticize good people for their beliefs on an internet forum.
There is help out there in the form of psychotropic drugs and counciling.
This country has done very well living by the Christian ethic for the past 236 years. Don't like it? Leave.
I know a lot of atheists, some are friends, who don't give a rat's ass what people believe. They have more important issues in life.
Miserable lives you folks must have.

Tilley
05-25-2012, 02:09
My moral standard is that it's none of my business what two grown ass adults do between themselves.

So it wouldn't bother you if your son or daughter came up to you and told you they were gay?

Or were maybe thinking about trying it?

Gunhaver
05-25-2012, 02:20
So it wouldn't bother you if your son or daughter came up to you and told you they were gay?

Or were maybe thinking about trying it?

I honestly wouldn't care. Can you imagine that?!
No real problems with it at all. Totally up to them.

My only real concern would be the harassment they would have to endure from people that couldn't wrap their tiny brains around the fact that my theoretical son or daughter's sexuality is none of their business. But hey, they might have to take crap from some other idiot for some other idiot reason. Nobody's fault but the idiots, you know?

Gunhaver
05-25-2012, 02:42
Absolutely true, Gunhaver probably opposes slavery, including selling one's daughter and I dare say he doesn't think the victim of rape shouldn't be punished along with the perpetrator. I don't know how he feels about paying a father 30 pieces of silver and taking his daughter as a wife after raping her, maybe he can comment on that one for us.

I find all that stuff pretty disgusting but I try to keep in mind that those people (not god) wrote that garbage because they were simpleton sheepherders and that was just the way they lived in a primitive society. Rape marriage, daughter slavery, homosexual lynching, superstitious breaking of dishes, food prohibitions, this is the middle east we're talking about. The area has been rife with the willfully ignorant since the dawn of man.

What really gets me is the people that actually defend that stuff in this day and age. What's their excuse? They grew up in a modern society and resent it while constantly making excuses for the actions of primitive cretins that they all wish we could be more like and they bemoan every progressive step away from their primitive dream world as the downfall of man. F--- 'em.

Foxtrotx1
05-25-2012, 02:58
You know what I found funny, regarding his "can't reproduce comment"....they can't reproduce because they are all CHICKS OR DUDES dumbass! nothing to do with Gay or straight. FFS.

void *
05-29-2012, 18:38
The real issue is mentally disturbed atheists who have no life other than to criticize good people for their beliefs on an internet forum.

The man suggested taking a bunch of people and depriving them of their liberty by putting them inside an area enclosed by an electrified fence, and forcing them to live in that area until they die.

That is 'good people' to you?

juggy4711
05-29-2012, 18:50
Why are all the "religious" always have to be....from christanity? I can read you mind.

Other religions in the world (hindu, muslim, buddism, etc.).....are fine. I guess. Not much criticism from the media that I know of. Think about it

Not from the media but from me for sure. Religious doesn't mean Christian it means religious. Other religions have folks that say and do things to make themselves look bad. Where ever you bought your mind powers from you should ask for a refund.

Geko45
05-29-2012, 18:51
You know what I found funny, regarding his "can't reproduce comment"....they can't reproduce because they are all CHICKS OR DUDES dumbass! nothing to do with Gay or straight. FFS.

And that they would eventually die out because of it?!?! Where does he think they come from now?!?! Not the sharpest crayon we've got here.

Geko45
05-29-2012, 18:56
Edit and correction: It was actually BruceV that demonstrated the early signs of psychopathic behavior in saying that it was ok to kill pets at the owner's whim. I had misremembered the exchange an accidentally attributed it to Blast.

My apologies Blast.

fowl intent
05-29-2012, 20:59
I would never have believed it if I hadn't read it myself. There are people in this world ( and apparantly on GT) that believe that if you don't believe in their god, you are mentally disturbed. This simply underscores the fact that you cannot have a rational, educated, reasoned discussion with someone who is not rational, educated or reasonable. Then again, maybe there are some psychotropic drugs that will make me believe in mythology. If so, I prefer the Olympus model. If one god is good, then multiple gods must be better.

juggy4711
05-29-2012, 21:23
...There are people in this world ( and apparantly on GT) that believe that if you don't believe in their god, you are mentally disturbed...If one god is good, then multiple gods must be better.

Eh it works both ways. Depending on how one believes in a God and to what degree it effects their acceptance of scientific reality, I think they are mentally disturbed.

As for one good, more better it's like Tylenol. If two works, 4 will work better. Hell that's the American way. :whistling:

muscogee
05-30-2012, 06:53
Just to remind you that they do more than just kissing. You know what I mean? Don't try to make them look too innocent.:supergrin:

The real issue here is: Your moral standard is obviously not the same as the one given in the Bible. So, it's not about what you don't or do think constantly....that gives rise to the problem. Let's be fair now....you are not the only one to think about women all the time. Many of us men do. And probably more than you!!! But our moral standards are not the same as yours. That's the real issue.:whistling:

According to Jesus, lusting is the same as committing adultery. That makes you as sinful as gay people.

fowl intent
05-30-2012, 07:32
There seems to be an inverse relationship between intelligence and religious intolerance. I would hazard a guess that this "preacher" had stepped out of line to smoke a cigarette when god was handing out the brains.

Gunhaver
05-31-2012, 07:52
This just in, the fence is to expensive.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/29/kansas-pastor/

Woofie
05-31-2012, 10:33
I would never have believed it if I hadn't read it myself. There are people in this world ( and apparantly on GT) that believe that if you don't believe in their god, you are mentally disturbed. This simply underscores the fact that you cannot have a rational, educated, reasoned discussion with someone who is not rational, educated or reasonable. Then again, maybe there are some psychotropic drugs that will make me believe in mythology. If so, I prefer the Olympus model. If one god is good, then multiple gods must be better.

Wait until you're told an atheist is nothing but an immature kid rebelling against his parents.

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 15:17
Christian Martyrs - 2005-2008 - YouTube


Hindu Attacks on Christians in India - YouTube


North Korea has the deadliest level of Christian persecution in the world - YouTube

Animal Mother
06-02-2012, 17:21
Christian Martyrs - 2005-2008 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id9pJkbAaX8&feature=related)


Hindu Attacks on Christians in India - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn7m3HsKN5c&feature=related)


North Korea has the deadliest level of Christian persecution in the world - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tczxrnc-9HA)
How does any of this mitigate or justify the actions of the Church in OP?

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 17:25
How does any of this mitigate or justify the actions of the Church in OP?


It doesn't. But, I thought you might use a doese of reality about what is actually going on in the world.

Animal Mother
06-02-2012, 17:27
It doesn't. But, I thought you might use a doese of reality about what is actually going on in the world.How do the videos you posted make the videos in the original post less of a reality? Does the oppression of Christians in North Korea somehow forgive anti-homosexual bigotry in the US? Is "We're better than people who attack Christians in other parts of the world?" really the argument you want to be making?

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 17:48
How do the videos you posted make the videos in the original post less of a reality? Does the oppression of Christians in North Korea somehow forgive anti-homosexual bigotry in the US? Is "We're better than people who attack Christians in other parts of the world?" really the argument you want to be making?

No. But, I can't help but notice you cherry pick every "Christian" organization you can fid to justify your own disdain for theists, when in truth, the theists are the ones who primarly are facing presecution world wide.

Animal Mother
06-02-2012, 17:54
No. But, I can't help but notice you cherry pick every "Christian" organization you can fid to justify your own disdain for theists, when in truth, the theists are the ones who primarly are facing presecution world wide."Hindu attacks on Christians in India" Pretty sure Hindu is a theology also. I'm not denying such attacks occur, I just don't see the relevance in this particular thread.

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 17:57
"Hindu attacks on Christians in India" Pretty sure Hindu is a theology also. I'm not denying such attacks occur, I just don't see the relevance in this particular thread.

My point is, you don't see the relevance at all. If I posted videos of Islam beheading Christians in Turkey, you would be irate that I was picking on Islam. Like I said, you cherry pick your agenda.

Gunhaver
06-02-2012, 19:04
My point is, you don't see the relevance at all. If I posted videos of Islam beheading Christians in Turkey, you would be irate that I was picking on Islam. Like I said, you cherry pick your agenda.

Everyone cherry picks their agenda. Whatever you choose to fight against there will always be some twit there to point out that you should be more concerned with something else. It's usually the battle cry of the people you're agenda goes against when they can't defend what you've pointed out.

I say it all the time. I don't like atheists that feel like they have to take down white crosses on the highway or rally to have "In God We Trust" taken off all the money. It's absurd. Nobody gets up and goes to church because the money says so. If someone wants to argue that I should be Christian because it's on the money then they can just take their retarded logic elsewhere. If you posted a link to atheists pulling that "Let's cleanse religion from this earth" crap I'd be right there with you agreeing that this is not cool. It would be nice if, when I posted a video of people advocating the rounding up and extermination of ANYBODY, you could see that for what it is and disassociate yourself from those people.

You might be better served to just admit that these are not the kind of hate spreading Christians that you identify with rather than try to misdirect to something you find more abhorrent.

Animal Mother
06-02-2012, 22:04
My point is, you don't see the relevance at all. If I posted videos of Islam beheading Christians in Turkey, you would be irate that I was picking on Islam. Like I said, you cherry pick your agenda.If you post a video of Islam doing anything, I'll be amazed since Islam is a belief system not a person.

In the case of the video in the OP, you'll note that the condemnation is directed at a specific Pastor and his congregants, not Christians as a whole.

Kingarthurhk
06-03-2012, 03:12
If you post a video of Islam doing anything, I'll be amazed since Islam is a belief system not a person.

In the case of the video in the OP, you'll note that the condemnation is directed at a specific Pastor and his congregants, not Christians as a whole.

Interesting. Considering that seems to be the favorite target here.

So, if I started a thread with:

Malaysia: Muslim Persecution of Christians - YouTube


The shocking video Muslims don't want you to see!! - YouTube


You wouldn't object then?

High-Gear
06-03-2012, 04:12
The real issue is mentally disturbed atheists who have no life other than to criticize good people for their beliefs on an internet forum.
There is help out there in the form of psychotropic drugs and counciling.
This country has done very well living by the Christian ethic for the past 236 years. Don't like it? Leave.
I know a lot of atheists, some are friends, who don't give a rat's ass what people believe. They have more important issues in life.
Miserable lives you folks must have.

What Christian ethic has this country lived by?

This country was founded as a secular nation where people are free to believe, or not, as long as it does not infringe on others rights.

The USA is not, and never has been a Christian Nation. We rebelled against a Theocracy!

If you don't like it, you leave!

Paul7
06-03-2012, 06:30
Interesting. Considering that seems to be the favorite target here.

So, if I started a thread with:

Malaysia: Muslim Persecution of Christians - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TUC4RVy9Hk)


The shocking video Muslims don't want you to see!! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gzyeo1Z1I4&feature=related)


You wouldn't object then?

Amazing, in 'moderate' Malaysia the high court rules a man can't leave Islam, and the lawyer defending him gets death threats. Yet to the dhimmis here, a buffoon pastor who never hurt a fly is a greater problem.

Paul7
06-03-2012, 06:33
What Christian ethic has this country lived by?

This country was founded as a secular nation where people are free to believe, or not, as long as it does not infringe on others rights.

The USA is not, and never has been a Christian Nation. We rebelled against a Theocracy!

If you don't like it, you leave!

Nonsense, many early states had established churches, the Founders didn't want a Federal state church. We are a de facto Christian nation, but not by law.

This is from Joseph Story, Supreme Court justice appointed by James Madison, the 'Founder of the Constitution':

§ 1868. Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.


We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.

Animal Mother
06-03-2012, 07:03
Nonsense, many early states had established churches, the Founders didn't want a Federal state church. We are a de facto Christian nation, but not by law. No, we aren't. The previous post asked, "What Christian ethic has this country lived by? ". I'd add the modifier uniquely to Christian and ask that you answer the question.
This is from Joseph Story, Supreme Court justice appointed by James Madison, the 'Founder of the Constitution': You really need to stop depending on Barton.
We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.Is anyone denying the right of anyone to practice whatever faith they hold?

muscogee
06-03-2012, 07:13
It's interesting that Gay bashing and Muslim bashing have come together on the same thread. I guess it's only natural since they both rely on stereotyping and stereotyping relies on ignorance. How many of you bashing Gay people have Gay friends or close relatives? Would you admit it if you did? How many of you have Muslim friends? It's easy to assume you're an authority on things you know very little about. I grew up with people stereotyping Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, Catholics, other Protestants, and on and on. The I went to college and met some of these people. What I had been told about them was not true. Most groups of people are all alike. I met some in every group that I liked and respected and some I didn't. As oxymoronic as it may seem, the only group I have a problem with are bigots. Live and let live, unless you're a bigot.

Kingarthurhk
06-03-2012, 08:27
It's interesting that Gay bashing and Muslim bashing have come together on the same thread. I guess it's only natural since they both rely on stereotyping and stereotyping relies on ignorance. How many of you bashing Gay people have Gay friends or close relatives? Would you admit it if you did? How many of you have Muslim friends? It's easy to assume you're an authority on things you know very little about. I grew up with people stereotyping Blacks, Mexicans, Jews, Catholics, other Protestants, and on and on. The I went to college and met some of these people. What I had been told about them was not true. Most groups of people are all alike. I met some in every group that I liked and respected and some I didn't. As oxymoronic as it may seem, the only group I have a problem with are bigots. Live and let live, unless you're a bigot.

Interesting. Christian bashing is acceptable all day every day. The minute anything else is posted, it is instant biggotry. Ironic. The point of what I posted? Is that you can't see the forest from the trees.

High-Gear
06-03-2012, 08:32
So it wouldn't bother you if your son or daughter came up to you and told you they were gay?

Or were maybe thinking about trying it?

You seem to think being gay is a choice?

I remember the day I made the choice to be straight. I had to weigh all of the pros and cons, both seemed so apealing. I really could have gone either way but in the end the straight group had the better dental plan.

Oh wait, I never made the choice between being straight and being gay. Did you? No? Neither did any gay people. People fall on a scale as to the sexuality some are very heterosexual, some very homosexual, and some inbetween.

I hope your children never have to make the choice between being happy and facing the bigotry of their father.

High-Gear
06-03-2012, 08:39
Nonsense, many early states had established churches, the Founders didn't want a Federal state church. We are a de facto Christian nation, but not by law.

This is from Joseph Story, Supreme Court justice appointed by James Madison, the 'Founder of the Constitution':

§ 1868. Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.


We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.

Thats funny! I bet if a judge has an opposing view you and Fox news would call him an "activist judge"! One guys opinion does not mean squat. Judges back then were ruling that slavery should remain legal, do you agree with them?

James Madison's nickname was not the founder but "father of the Constitution", and even he disavowed the nickname. 72 of the positions he supported were ratified, and he was defeated on 40. He was just one of many men who took part in the constitutional convention, and just because he later appointed a person to a post, who happened to have an opinion you agree with, does not make it factual.

Have you ever read the Treaty of Tripoli, written by the President and ratified by a unanimous vot in Congress?


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION! - caps added for emphasis not yelling.

muscogee
06-03-2012, 17:26
Interesting. Christian bashing is acceptable all day every day. The minute anything else is posted, it is instant biggotry. Ironic. The point of what I posted? Is that you can't see the forest from the trees.

I know quite a bit about Christianity, and it's not Christianity that bothers me. It's using Christianity to justify bigotry and other hateful hurtful behavior that bothers me. How many Muslim friends do you have? How many Gay friends do you have?

Kingarthurhk
06-03-2012, 17:49
I know quite a bit about Christianity, and it's not Christianity that bothers me. It's using Christianity to justify bigotry and other hateful hurtful behavior that bothers me. How many Muslim friends do you have? How many Gay friends do you have?

Not relevant. How many "fundamentalist" friends do you have?

muscogee
06-03-2012, 20:14
Not relevant. Of course it's relevant. You're answer is none. Therefore, you can't make an informed decision about either group. All you have to go on is a stereotype. Stereotypes are nearly always flawed and tell you nothing about the individual.

How many "fundamentalist" friends do you have?

I have an entire family full of fundamentalists. I usually spend Christmas with them and frequently talk with them on the phone. Therefore, I'm capable of making in informed decision about them. They're not all like Paul7 or snowbird, or many others on this forum.

Tilley
06-03-2012, 20:31
You seem to think being gay is a choice?.

I'm not gay by choice...God made me this way!

I'm not a pedophile by choice...God made me this way!

I'm not a killer by choice...God made me this way!


Take responsibility for your life! If you want a steak instead of chicken, that is your choice. if you want to have sex with another guy, that is your choice as well. Don't be upset if someone seeing you eat meat calls you a carnivore.

If someone sees you kissing another guy, don't be upset if the majority of human beings on this Earth think you are a pervert.

Take responsibility for your actions!!!

Geko45
06-03-2012, 20:43
I'm not gay by choice...God made me this way!

I'm not a pedophile by choice...God made me this way!

I'm not a killer by choice...God made me this way!

Two of those are crimes with victims. The other is private between consenting adults. Can you really not see the difference?

Tilley
06-03-2012, 20:59
Two of those are crimes with victims. The other is private between consenting adults. Can you really not see the difference?

Sodomy is still a crime in some places too...so I guess that is three out of three.

Can't you see what I was getting at? I truly gave you enough credit for that. The point here is that you cannot use the excuse "I was born this way" to justify deviant behavior. Just because they are two consenting adults does not justify abnormal behavior.

And since I am venting here on you, in California, all the pro-gay laws that have been voted against overwhelmingly by California voters, but have been overturned by a handful of gay judges. Apparently the voice of the people and the power of the ballot box means nothing.

Geko45
06-03-2012, 21:33
Sodomy is still a crime in some places too...so I guess that is three out of three.

But it shouldn't be as there is no victim.

Can't you see what I was getting at? I truly gave you enough credit for that.

Homophobic bigotry? Yeah, I got that.

The point here is that you cannot use the excuse "I was born this way" to justify deviant behavior. Just because they are two consenting adults does not justify abnormal behavior.

The only reason you consider it such is your silly book of fairy tales tells you too.

And since I am venting here on you, in California, all the pro-gay laws that have been voted against overwhelmingly by California voters, but have been overturned by a handful of gay judges. Apparently the voice of the people and the power of the ballot box means nothing.

Good. As we live in a democratic republic and not a pure democracy, that is the way it should be. This means that certain basic rights should not be up for popular vote. Do you think the second amendment should be a matter of popular vote?

Tilley
06-03-2012, 21:54
But it shouldn't be as there is no victim.
Homophobic bigotry? Yeah, I got that.
The only reason you consider it such is your silly book of fairy tales tells you too.
Good. As we live in a democratic republic and not a pure democracy, that is the way it should be. This means that certain basic rights should not be up for popular vote. Do you think the second amendment should be a matter of popular vote?

Everyone says prostitution is a victimless crime too. BS.

Because I believe homosexuality is deviant does not make me a homophobe anymore than you being an atheist makes you a bigot.


As far as the rest of your opinions...well comrade, you should be glad you live in a free society where even communists can openly express their opinions. since when does the opinion homosexual judge override the opinions of millions of voters. That is a dictatorship.

Paul7
06-03-2012, 21:58
This means that certain basic rights should not be up for popular vote. Do you think the second amendment should be a matter of popular vote?

No, it is part of our Bill or Rights. Is the right of two people with same-sex feelings to get married in there?

Animal Mother
06-03-2012, 21:59
Sodomy is still a crime in some places too...so I guess that is three out of three. Where exactly?

Paul7
06-03-2012, 21:59
Of course it's relevant. You're answer is none. Therefore, you can't make an informed decision about either group. All you have to go on is a stereotype. Stereotypes are nearly always flawed and tell you nothing about the individual.


You do nothing but stereotype Bible-believers here.

Paul7
06-03-2012, 22:00
How many Gay friends do you have?

My cousin. The guy he left his family for just dumped him.

Paul7
06-03-2012, 22:04
Thats funny! I bet if a judge has an opposing view you and Fox news would call him an "activist judge"! One guys opinion does not mean squat.

But an atheist internet warrior's does?

Judges back then were ruling that slavery should remain legal, do you agree with them?

No, red herring. By that silly reasoning we should disregard all the Founders said.

James Madison's nickname was not the founder but "father of the Constitution",

Right.

and even he disavowed the nickname. 72 of the positions he supported were ratified, and he was defeated on 40. He was just one of many men who took part in the constitutional convention, and just because he later appointed a person to a post, who happened to have an opinion you agree with, does not make it factual.

Lot's of dancing around Story's description of the attitude toward my religion at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Do you think Story just made that up?

Have you ever read the Treaty of Tripoli, written by the President and ratified by a unanimous vot in Congress?


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION! - caps added for emphasis not yelling.

You're really reaching when you bring up the Treaty of Tripoli. All that is saying is the Federal government did not have a state church like the UK. Many states did at the time, though. Can you guess what religion?

Animal Mother
06-03-2012, 22:07
No, it is part of our Bill or Rights. Is the right of two people with same-sex feelings to get married in there?No, it isn't. It's in the 14th Amendment, the same one that invalidated the miscegenation laws of a variety of states.

Paul7
06-03-2012, 22:14
No, we aren't. The previous post asked, "What Christian ethic has this country lived by? ". I'd add the modifier uniquely to Christian and ask that you answer the question.


I'm glad you asked. This is what Eisenhower said:

"all men are endowed by their Creator." In other words, our form of government has no sense unless it is founded in a deeply felt religious faith, and I don't care what it is. With us of course it is the Judeo-Christian concept, but it must be a religion with all men created equal."

This is de Tocqueville's observation, from Wikipedia:

Nineteenth century historians wrote extensively on the United States of America having a distinctively Protestant character in its outlook and founding political philosophy.
The notion of a distinctive religious basis for American democracy and culture was first described and popularized by Alexis de Tocqueville in the 1840s, in his influential book, Democracy in America. In the second chapter, de Tocqueville describes America's unique religious heritage from the Puritans. His analysis showed the Puritans as providing the foundational values of America, based on their strong Hebrew Bible view of the world, which included fighting for earthly political justice, an emphasis on laws and education, and the "chosenness" which the Puritans identified with, giving them a sense of moral mission in founding America. As de Tocqueville observed, the Puritan's biblical outlook gave America a moral dimension which the Old World lacked. De Tocqueville believed these biblical values led to America's unique institutions of religious tolerance, public education, egalitarianism, and democracy.
The principles of New England…now extend their influence beyond its limits, over the whole American world. The civilization of New England has been like a beacon lit upon a hill. […] Puritanism was not merely a religious doctrine, but corresponded in many points with the most absolute democratic and republican theories. […] Nathaniel Morton, the historian of the first years of the settlement, thus opens his subject: "we may not hide from our children, showing to the generations to come the praises of the Lord; that especially the seed of Abraham his servant, and the children of Jacob his chosen (Psalm cv. 5, 6), may remember his marvellous works in the beginning…" […] The general principles which are the groundwork of modern constitutions, principles…were all recognized and established by the laws of New England: the intervention of the people in public affairs, the free voting of taxes, the responsibility of the agents of power, personal liberty, and trial by jury were all positively established without discussion. […] In the bosom of this obscure democracy…the following fine definition of liberty: "There is a twofold liberty, natural…and civil or federal. The first is common to man with beasts and other creatures. By this, man, as he stands in relation to man simply, hath liberty to do what he lists; it is a liberty to evil as well as to good. […] The exercise and maintaining of this liberty makes men grow more evil, and in time to be worse than brute beasts: […] The other kind of liberty I call civil or federal; it may also be termed moral, in reference to the covenant between God and man, in the moral law, and the politic covenants and constitutions, among men themselves. […] This liberty you are to stand for, with the hazard not only of your goods, but of your lives, if need be." I have said enough to put the character of Anglo-American civilization in its true light. It is the result (and this should be constantly kept in mind) of two distinct elements, which in other places have been in frequent disagreement, but which the Americans have succeeded in incorporating to some extent one with the other and combining admirably. I allude to the spirit of religion and the spirit of liberty.[44]


The US is more Christian than India is Hindu or Egypt is Muslim. Are you going to deny also that India lives by a Hindu ethic or Egypt by a Muslim one?

Paul7
06-03-2012, 22:16
No, it isn't. It's in the 14th Amendment, the same one that invalidated the miscegenation laws of a variety of states.

Until you can produce a Supreme Court opinion like that, it is nothing more than your opinion.

Geko45
06-03-2012, 22:27
No, it is part of our Bill or Rights. Is the right of two people with same-sex feelings to get married in there?

Here are some important questions. Is the Bill of Rights an exhaustive list of all our rights or does it simply enumerate certain important ones? What about anything not specifically mentioned? Is there a clause that covers those?

Animal Mother
06-03-2012, 22:27
You're really reaching when you bring up the Treaty of Tripoli. All that is saying is the Federal government did not have a state church like the UK. Many states did at the time, though. Can you guess what religion?Those states no longer have state churches, why is that?

Animal Mother
06-03-2012, 22:30
Until you can produce a Supreme Court opinion like that, it is nothing more than your opinion.I can. Loving v. Virginia, just replace the racial separations with sexual orientation. It isn't just my opinion, it's the opinion of any number of Constitutional scholars.

Animal Mother
06-03-2012, 22:39
I'm glad you asked. This is what Eisenhower said:

"all men are endowed by their Creator." In other words, our form of government has no sense unless it is founded in a deeply felt religious faith, and I don't care what it is. With us of course it is the Judeo-Christian concept, but it must be a religion with all men created equal." How can you argue that the founders truly believed that "all men were created equal" while allowing for slavery and the expulsion of the Native Americans?
The US is more Christian than India is Hindu or Egypt is Muslim. Are you going to deny also that India lives by a Hindu ethic or Egypt by a Muslim one?India and Egypt are explicitly religious nations, the US is explicitly not a religious nation.

Kingarthurhk
06-04-2012, 04:31
Of course it's relevant. You're answer is none. Therefore, you can't make an informed decision about either group. All you have to go on is a stereotype. Stereotypes are nearly always flawed and tell you nothing about the individual.

I can't? Why do you assume that? Also, you said none based on an assumption of my reponse of not relevant. I have known plenty of gay people. Usually, it was the people that cut my hair. Did I say, I can't stand a gay guy touching my hair? No. You assume that because we believe a life style is wrong, that it automatically equales "hate". I think yours is wrong, but I don't hate you. I have an Atheists friend. I don't hate or stereotype him either. I have a Catholic friend, I don't hate or steroteype him either. I disagree completely with his doctrines, but because of that does that require me to "hate" him? No. I've had plenty of mof Mormon friends. I completely disagree with their doctrines, but am I required to "hate" them too? No. You are awefully quick to assume a state of being that doesn't exist.


I have an entire family full of fundamentalists. I usually spend Christmas with them and frequently talk with them on the phone. Therefore, I'm capable of making in informed decision about them. They're not all like Paul7 or snowbird, or many others on this forum.

So, that allows you the right to discriminate then? All those murdered Christians were known by non-Christians, so that means their murders were acceptable??

muscogee
06-04-2012, 07:53
You do nothing but stereotype Bible-believers here.

There you go again. This keeps going over your head. I don't stereotype Bible believers. When I write about Christians I have know, I'm writing from personal experience. I know what I'm talking about. People like you reinforce my perceptions. You and others here have opinions you're not entitled to because you don't know enough to have an informed opinion. I have never accused all Christians of being one way because they're not. Many of them are thoughtful people. They don't all bash Muslims and Gays. They don't all hide behind scriptures to justify unjustifiable behavior. Many of them honestly adopt 1 Corinthians as a lifestyle (e.g., "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal."). I do my best to adopt that belief system as well. That makes me a selective Bible believer like most Christians. The difference is that I'm honest. The only people Jesus ever bashed were the hypocrites so if I stereotype them, I'm in good company.

High-Gear
06-04-2012, 08:08
I'm glad you asked. This is what Eisenhower said:

"all men are endowed by their Creator." In other words, our form of government has no sense unless it is founded in a deeply felt religious faith, and I don't care what it is. With us of course it is the Judeo-Christian concept, but it must be a religion with all men created equal."

He's quoting the Declaration of Independance, which was a statement that all men are born with certain human rights. The founders were primarily deists, and used the term as an eloquent way of expressing the above statement. If god was so important, why is he not mentioned in the Constitution?

This is de Tocqueville's observation, from Wikipedia:

Nineteenth century historians wrote extensively on the United States of America having a distinctively Protestant character in its outlook and founding political philosophy.
The notion of a distinctive religious basis for American democracy and culture was first described and popularized by Alexis de Tocqueville in the 1840s, in his influential book, Democracy in America. In the second chapter, de Tocqueville describes America's unique religious heritage from the Puritans.

Including burning witches, and branding adulterous people? Im glad that Puritan Christian idea went out the window.

His analysis showed the Puritans as providing the foundational values of America, based on their strong Hebrew Bible view of the world, which included fighting for earthly political justice, an emphasis on laws and education, and the "chosenness" which the Puritans identified with, giving them a sense of moral mission in founding America. As de Tocqueville observed, the Puritan's biblical outlook gave America a moral dimension which the Old World lacked.

No there was plenty of Old World persecution in Mass.

The US is more Christian than India is Hindu or Egypt is Muslim. Are you going to deny also that India lives by a Hindu ethic or Egypt by a Muslim one?

You are confusing culture and the structure of the government

See above red text

muscogee
06-04-2012, 08:17
I can't? Why do you assume that? Also, you said none based on an assumption of my reponse of not relevant. I have known plenty of gay people. Usually, it was the people that cut my hair. Did I say, I can't stand a gay guy touching my hair? No. You assume that because we believe a life style is wrong, that it automatically equales "hate". I think yours is wrong, but I don't hate you. I have an Atheists friend. I don't hate or stereotype him either. I have a Catholic friend, I don't hate or steroteype him either. I disagree completely with his doctrines, but because of that does that require me to "hate" him? No. I've had plenty of mof Mormon friends. I completely disagree with their doctrines, but am I required to "hate" them too? No. You are awefully quick to assume a state of being that doesn't exist.
They why didn't you give a straight answer rather than dodging the question? Were you baiting me?

Having a Gay barber is not the same as having Gay friends. Have you ever been to his house? Has your family ever had a gay couple over for dinner or gone to a gay couples house for dinner? Do you let gay couples' children spend the night at your house or their house with your children?

So, that allows you the right to discriminate then? First, tell me what you mean by discriminate. I think you're misusing the word, so I can't respond until I'm sure what you mean. Discrimination is frequently justifiable. We discriminate against drunk drivers all the time.

All those murdered Christians were known by non-Christians, so that means their murders were acceptable??

Complete non sequitur. Where did that come from? Non Christians murder each other more than they murder Christians, but you give that a pass. Have you been following what's happening in Syria? How about Libya? There are lot of angry people in the World. There are a lot of ignorant people in the World who think the solution to their anger is to persecute those who disagree with them. It's unfortunate when Christians do that because it's the opposite of what the New Testament commands.

Paul7
06-04-2012, 09:06
I have never accused all Christians of being one way because they're not. Many of them are thoughtful people. They don't all bash Muslims

And not all atheists have their head in the sand when it comes to radical Islam like you do, Christopher Hitchens being a shining example. Do you think he was a bigot too?

Many of them honestly adopt 1 Corinthians as a lifestyle (e.g., "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal."). I do my best to adopt that belief system as well. That makes me a selective Bible believer like most Christians. The difference is that I'm honest.

No you're not, and your good works won't save you. The Bible says our best efforts are like filthy rags, literally, menstrual cloths.

Paul7
06-04-2012, 09:08
See above red text

I've never said the structure of the government was not secular. I'm saying they were in no way hostile to Christianity like today's God-haters.

The Founders weren't deists, who believe God has nothing to do with the affairs of men. Even Jefferson and Franklin thought God was involved in the events of our beginnings.

Burning witches isn't a principle of Christianity. You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse. Anyway, it is a red herring, and doesn't change the accuracy of de Tocqueville's observation.

Shadyscott69
06-04-2012, 09:59
Tagged

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

High-Gear
06-04-2012, 10:56
I've never said the structure of the government was not secular. I'm saying they were in no way hostile to Christianity like today's God-haters.

The Founders weren't deists, who believe God has nothing to do with the affairs of men. Even Jefferson and Franklin thought God was involved in the events of our beginnings.

Burning witches isn't a principle of Christianity. You don't judge a philosophy by it's misuse. Anyway, it is a red herring, and doesn't change the accuracy of de Tocqueville's observation.

Funny, ive seen many quotes from e founding fathers which were hostile toward religion.
http://www.ecis.com/~alizard/founding-fathers-xtianity.html
Several were also atheists, Jefferson went so far as to rewrite the bible taking out all of the mystical stuff.

You dont get to pick and choose which parts of Christianity are used. If you say we are organized on a sense of fair play, doing good will to others, and the golden rule, that is one thing. However these are common traits to many cultures / religions. You cant claim 1 basis and ignore all of the dirty parts of it. That is unless you are an Alacarte Christian.

Paul7
06-04-2012, 11:01
Funny, ive seen many quotes from e founding fathers which were hostile toward religion. Several were also atheists, Jefferson went so far as to rewrite the bible taking out all of the mystical stuff.

I'd like to know what Founder was an atheist, several of them didn't even think atheists were fit to hold public office. Jefferson was not an atheist, and he was one of the flakier ones when it came to religion. He did authorize the payment of Christian missionaries to Indians in the Northwest Territories, and the use of the Bible as a textbook in the DC schools.

You dont get to pick and choose which parts of Christianity are used. If you say we are organized on a sense of fair play, doing good will to others, and the golden rule, that is one thing. However these are common traits to many cultures / religions. You cant claim 1 basis and ignore all of the dirty parts of it. That is unless you are an Alacarte Christian.

If you could show me a command of Jesus to burn witches, you might have a point.

High-Gear
06-04-2012, 11:16
I'd like to know what Founder was an atheist, several of them didn't even think atheists were fit to hold public office. Jefferson was not an atheist, and he was one of the flakier ones when it came to religion. He did authorize the payment of Christian missionaries to Indians in the Northwest Territories, and the use of the Bible as a textbook in the DC schools.



If you could show me a command of Jesus to burn witches, you might have a point.

Thomas Paine would be the most obvious. Many others expressed in personal letters eir disdain for e church and religion in general.

Show me where Jesus was against Gays? You use the old book of Jewish Fairytales when it suits you, but ignore it when it does not.

Paul7
06-04-2012, 11:24
Show me where Jesus was against Gays? You use the old book of Jewish Fairytales when it suits you, but ignore it when it does not.

He condemned fornication, which includes all sex outside of marriage. Sodomy wasn't a big issue in His culture, had anyone been found guilty of it, they would have been stoned. Jesus would have said the same as He said to the repentant woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more."

Firebob2917
06-04-2012, 11:34
Love the sinner, Hate the Sin. A true Christan does not hate anyone. Did Christ. No. He who is without sin cast the first stone. Did Religion, the church, the pastor save me. NO. Jesus Christ did. I am a sinner saved by grace.

High-Gear
06-04-2012, 11:36
He condemned fornication, which includes all sex outside of marriage. Sodomy wasn't a big issue in His culture, had anyone been found guilty of it, they would have been stoned. Jesus would have said the same as He said to the repentant woman caught in adultery, "Go, and sin no more."

So what you are saying is Jesus didnt really care enough about gay sex to comment on the subject. Huh?

Thankfully he has you to speak for him, and what he would have said. Do you have a bat phone to god or something? I bet god has 5g.

Firebob2917
06-04-2012, 11:58
Think Paul has a few chosen words in Romans Chap 1 vs 24 to end of chapter about the subject.

Paul7
06-04-2012, 12:07
So what you are saying is Jesus didnt really care enough about gay sex to comment on the subject. Huh?

Thankfully he has you to speak for him, and what he would have said. Do you have a bat phone to god or something? I bet god has 5g.

In case you really want to educate yourself instead of ranting:

http://thebible.net/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=81&cat=9

Animal Mother
06-04-2012, 12:15
He condemned fornication, which includes all sex outside of marriage. The obvious solution then is to legalize same sex marriage.
Sodomy wasn't a big issue in His culture, had anyone been found guilty of it, they would have been stoned. Weren't you the one who claimed that since no one in the Bible was ever punished according to those laws, they weren't really important?

High-Gear
06-04-2012, 12:36
In case you really want to educate yourself instead of ranting:

http://thebible.net/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=81&cat=9

I'm not ranting, I'm trying to make Fun of your preocupation concerning what other people do in bed while naked. I guess Im not doing a good job.:cool:

I dont care to read your vacuous literature, any more than you would like to read other people's mythology. You see i dont give any credence to anything stated in your book of fairytales. I only care when people like you choose to use it as a license to force you will upon others, and as justification to spew hate.

You are no different than the radical muslim of whom you post incessantly. They are just a smidge more dedicated to their faith and put their hate into action rather than just words like you.

:tongueout:

Paul7
06-04-2012, 12:47
Weren't you the one who claimed that since no one in the Bible was ever punished according to those laws, they weren't really important?

You mean when we were talking about rebellious children?

Paul7
06-04-2012, 12:50
I'm not ranting, I'm trying to make Fun of your preocupation concerning what other people do in bed while naked.

You seem to have a preoccupation with what other people believe.

I dont care to read your vacuous literature, any more than you would like to read other people's mythology. You see i dont give any credence to anything stated in your book of fairytales.

Good, so we won't be hearing any more uninformed statements from you of what the Bible REALLY means?

I only care when people like you choose to use it as a license to force you will upon others,

But you can force your will on others? All laws are an imposition of somebody's morality.

and as justification to spew hate.

Right to the name-calling, out of arguments so soon?

You are no different than the radical muslim of whom you post incessantly. They are just a smidge more dedicated to their faith and put their hate into action rather than just words like you.


Wow, only a real hater of Christianity could say something so dumb. I haven't killed anyone, or advocated it.

muscogee
06-04-2012, 12:57
And not all atheists have their head in the sand when it comes to radical Islam like you do, Christopher Hitchens being a shining example. Do you think he was a bigot too?



No you're not, and your good works won't save you. The Bible says our best efforts are like filthy rags, literally, menstrual cloths.

Yes, I am honest about what I believe. I have no fantasy about being saved because I have no fantasy that there is anything to be saved from. I don't have any more use for Muslim fanatics than I do for Christians fanatics. The problem is fanaticism. What consenting adults do in private is not my business. When they take it to the street, it is.