Radial statement on Gun Manual Safeties... [Archive] - Glock Talk

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DaBurna
05-24-2012, 22:54
I heard a guy say, "Safeties on guns are nothing but devices that are designed to get u Killed!" I was pretty taken aback at his statement. But, I didn't wanna get into a pissing match with him either. I myself am not a HUGE fan of manual safeties, but I recognize their significance on certain plaforms (i.e. 1911). I was more appalled by his ignorance.... Wow!!!:wow:

Lior
05-24-2012, 22:58
Let me guess - you heard this in a gunshop?

samurairabbi
05-24-2012, 23:03
He's a shock jock; Jerry and Maury have made a bundle with that kind of material.

If you drop MANY (not ALL) autoloader pistols on a hard surface with the applied safety OFF, they will discharge often enough from the impact to make that safety desirable. THAT function, not the "safe while handling" function, is the original reason applied safeties were put on early autoloaders.

Nakanokalronin
05-25-2012, 02:16
People that don't like manual safeties either don't want to put in the time/practice to make them second nature and/or act like it's one the most difficult devices to use that has ever been invented.

Bottom line, train to use it or buy something without one, but don't act like it's a death sentence, magic trick or as hard to learn as quantum physics when people prefer them.

cluznar
05-25-2012, 02:39
I agree, I am so tired of hearing people act like having a manual safety on a gun is a death sentence. If you want to be a cowboy buy a six-shooter and wear it on your hip.
I like a manual safety, it allows me to be sure the gun is safe when wearing it at home or other crowded places. I practice drawing and flipping the safety off as I bring my gun up and have no problem doing that. Stop acting like a safety is something awful, they are very good to have and will not bother you if you take a little time and learn how to use them.

People act like bad guys know you are carrying and are gonna challenge you to a duel out in the street. If you don't have the fraction of a second to flip off your safety as you draw your gun then he must have already shot.
Learn to use a safety and quit acting like a Hollywood movie character.

:tongueout:

Bob Hafler
05-25-2012, 07:12
I heard a guy say, "Safeties on guns are nothing but devices that are designed to get u Killed!" I was pretty taken aback at his statement. But, I didn't wanna get into a pissing match with him either. I myself am not a HUGE fan of manual safeties, but I recognize their significance on certain plaforms (i.e. 1911). I was more appalled by his ignorance.... Wow!!!:wow:

Glad you decided not to reply to that blanket statement.
Lifes to short to dance with stupid people.

poodleplumber
05-25-2012, 08:03
Lots of us own pistols with and without thumb safeties and use both safely and effectively.

It doesn't matter whether you are talking thumb safeties or calibers, or cars or politics - there are people pronounce anyone who doesn't agree with them to be an idiot. It never seems to occur to them that such pronouncements betray them to be close minded, closer to idiocy than those who are able to consider both sides of a given question, and would-be dictators.

cluznar
05-25-2012, 08:30
People who wish to not have a manual safety are fine with me, after all if they screw up they will pay either with Glock leg or for accidentally shooting someone.

If you are comfortable without a safety then so be it. But some people like manual safeties and can handle a safety in a defense situation.

:cool:

Bruce M
05-25-2012, 09:57
I wonder how many people who dislike them have attempted to carry a pistol with the manual safety off and not touch it. I wonder how many times in a decent holster a safety gets knocked into the on position.

ithaca_deerslayer
05-25-2012, 10:13
I dislike manual safeties on a carry gun.

That's my personal preference. I don't mind if others use them :)

IDPA is not self-defense training, but if it was, I think it clearly shows that having no manual safety allows the shooter to be faster and more accurate.

It is also amusing to watch some people at IDPA stumble with their safety, either forgetting to swipe it off, or ineffectively swipping it off. Or if they have some other problem, they go back to the safey to see if it is the problem, and sometimes even swipe it back on and then try to shoot again :rofl:

Having said that, I carefully look my Glock back into my holster. More careful than if it had a manual safety, more careful than with my Beretta 92. Other people have other priorities, other preferences, so they might do things differently :)

cluznar
05-25-2012, 10:15
Part of good conceal carry is to have a good holster. Before you carry a gun in any holster you need to wear that holster at home for a couple weeks and practice drawing and reholstering. Then you can see if your safety is accidentally flipped on when drawing.

Usually it is easier to flip the safety off than on. I have never had a manual safety problem when drawing my SR9c, but then I use an excellent holster.

Manual safety should not scare you away from a good gun. You can always leave it off if you wish.

:dunno:

Shipwreck-The-Sequel
05-25-2012, 11:25
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/trolls.gifhttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/trolls.gif

English
05-25-2012, 11:53
I dislike manual safeties on a carry gun.

That's my personal preference. I don't mind if others use them :)

IDPA is not self-defense training, but if it was, I think it clearly shows that having no manual safety allows the shooter to be faster and more accurate.

It is also amusing to watch some people at IDPA stumble with their safety, either forgetting to swipe it off, or ineffectively swipping it off. Or if they have some other problem, they go back to the safey to see if it is the problem, and sometimes even swipe it back on and then try to shoot again :rofl:

Having said that, I carefully look my Glock back into my holster. More careful than if it had a manual safety, more careful than with my Beretta 92. Other people have other priorities, other preferences, so they might do things differently :)

Well said! plenty of highly skilled and practiced shooters occasionally fumble the safety just under the stress of competition. Being shot at is more stressful than that and the great majority of people carrying for self defence are less skilled and practiced than the high level gun gamers so how sure can they be that they won't fumble the safety when they need to defend themselves? What they do then is keep on pulling the trigger without producing bangs rather than thinking that they have missed the safety.

What else is wrong with safeties? It makes people think the pistol is safe, but if they have forgotten to put it on safe but think they have done so it is very dangererous indeed. The main risk of this is after the bullets have stopped flying and the surviving guy re-holsters. Stress makes him forget the safety but he reholsters as normal with a strong risk of shooting himself in the process. This is not the only risk of this type.

So what are optional safties good for? The sad answer is not much!

What do we need instead? Properly designed backstrap grip safeties that, with a modification of the way the pistol is gripped as it is drawn and re-holstered, will keep the pistol on safe in the region of the holster. The 1911 design is not good because it is pivoted at the wrong end. Incidentally, the middle finger grip safety on the old S&W .35 auto is useless for this purpose - it must be on the backstrap.

English

Caver 60
05-25-2012, 12:05
As said above, depends on the platform. Long guns are another subject. We're talking pistols here.

I own lots of different pistols and revolvers, but my only carry guns are either DAO pistols or on rare occasion a modern revolver. For instance I own and enjoy shooting several 1911's, but will not carry one of them. That's just my preference.

fwm
05-25-2012, 12:40
I agree, I am so tired of hearing people act like having a manual safety on a gun is a death sentence. If you want to be a cowboy buy a six-shooter and wear it on your hip.
I like a manual safety, it allows me to be sure the gun is safe when wearing it at home or other crowded places. I practice drawing and flipping the safety off as I bring my gun up and have no problem doing that. Stop acting like a safety is something awful, they are very good to have and will not bother you if you take a little time and learn how to use them.

People act like bad guys know you are carrying and are gonna challenge you to a duel out in the street. If you don't have the fraction of a second to flip off your safety as you draw your gun then he must have already shot.
Learn to use a safety and quit acting like a Hollywood movie character.

:tongueout:

There are guns that don't require a safety to be safe. Those I buy.
There are guns that require a safety to be safe. Those I do not buy.

My first 40 years was with pistols. Now I shoot semi-autos that don't need safeties and I don't need to re-learn how to shoot. My choice. Yours may vary.

(I do not consider a 100 year old design to be safe compared to guns designed with today's technological advances)

TSAX
05-25-2012, 12:47
Let me guess - you heard this in a gunshop?

:rofl:, that couldn't be :supergrin:









:50cal:

fwm
05-25-2012, 12:48
What do we need instead? Properly designed backstrap grip safeties that, with a modification of the way the pistol is gripped as it is drawn and re-holstered, will keep the pistol on safe in the region of the holster. The 1911 design is not good because it is pivoted at the wrong end. Incidentally, the middle finger grip safety on the old S&W .35 auto is useless for this purpose - it must be on the backstrap.

English

How about just a non-cocked striker DA with a trigger activated firing pin block.
No problem with re holstering, dropping or getting run over by a truck. No grip safeties, lever safeties, middle finger safeties or button safeties needed.

Nakanokalronin
05-25-2012, 13:12
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/trolls.gifhttp://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g320/mistershipwreck/Smiley/trolls.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyium2H06w1rn95k2o1_400.gif

English
05-25-2012, 14:01
How about just a non-cocked striker DA with a trigger activated firing pin block.
No problem with re holstering, dropping or getting run over by a truck. No grip safeties, lever safeties, middle finger safeties or button safeties needed.

The majority of injuries cause by unintended discharges by Glocks happen when re-holstering. The happen because something, sometimes a finger but often some other random object, gets inside the trigger guard and pushes the trigger back as the pistol is holstered. A trigger activated firing pin block does not solve this problem and is no more, if well designed, than one of several drop safeties. Glock call theirs a trigger safety but it is in fact a drop safety situated on the trigger. It does not make the trigger safer.

To a degree, a heavier trigger action makes the pistol slightly less prone to inadvertent discharges but it will not prevent the pistol from being fired under stress with a severe startle response and it will not prevent a reholstering discharge because you are using the muscles of the arm rather than the finger to reholster. For these small gains the pistol looses a lot in practical accuracy and even speed of fire.

English

cowboy1964
05-25-2012, 14:32
And he probably likes FMJs and light triggers for self-defense.

DaBurna
05-25-2012, 15:10
What do u think about this??? Would a safety prevented this??
Man shoots himself - Tosh.0 - YouTube

:rofl:

Nakanokalronin
05-25-2012, 15:24
What do u think about this??? Would a safety prevented this??
Man shoots himself - Tosh.0 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ5OUPYXFcw&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

:rofl:

A safety does not come off nor does a finger go on the trigger until the gun is on target. He broke both rules but if he kept the safety on until the gun was on target, it would have prevented it.

To me though, a thumb safety works best when re-holstering incase the edge of a holster or anything else gets caught in the trigger guard area. Not likely to happen but it sure can.

oldman11
05-25-2012, 16:14
The majority of injuries cause by unintended discharges by Glocks happen when re-holstering. The happen because something, sometimes a finger but often some other random object, gets inside the trigger guard and pushes the trigger back as the pistol is holstered. A trigger activated firing pin block does not solve this problem and is no more, if well designed, than one of several drop safeties. Glock call theirs a trigger safety but it is in fact a drop safety situated on the trigger. It does not make the trigger safer.

To a degree, a heavier trigger action makes the pistol slightly less prone to inadvertent discharges but it will not prevent the pistol from being fired under stress with a severe startle response and it will not prevent a reholstering discharge because you are using the muscles of the arm rather than the finger to reholster. For these small gains the pistol looses a lot in practical accuracy and even speed of fire.

English
Your whole statement is untrue and unfounded. Sorry.

HKLovingIT
05-25-2012, 18:46
What about rifles? All my rifles have safeties and I never give it a second thought or get tripped up. Maybe because all of them have safeties so it's just ingrained. Rifle = flick safety off.

I guess if you go back and forth between handguns that have them or don't, you could tripped up more likely. I've not had a problem using mine, but then I've not been shot at while carrying one with or without. :dunno: I have seen plenty of YTube reviews of firearms that have a safety and the guy goes to shoot it and is like "Oh yeah the safety is on..."

I believe Mas had in one of his books a study by Illinois State Police (might nor remember the agency correctly) where they couldn't find an incident where carrying on safe led to officer injury or death. They did note that carrying on safe helped to prevent officers getting shot during some gun grabs. Again....:dunno:

Anyway, I think the old-timer's wisdom of train like the dickens with whatever action type and safety / or non safety equipped firearm you intend to carry, is true.

English
05-26-2012, 03:12
Your whole statement is untrue and unfounded. Sorry.

Just not good enough!

Of course I can be wrong, or even totally wrong, but the function of discussion is to say why that is so. Don't appologise, just say why! if you don't have time to do that, wait until you do.

English

English
05-26-2012, 03:38
A safety does not come off nor does a finger go on the trigger until the gun is on target. He broke both rules but if he kept the safety on until the gun was on target, it would have prevented it.
To be more related to actuality, the safety does not come off until the the gun is well on its way to the target. But unless the safety can be opperated without any change of grip, that slows down the first shot and that could get you killed.

To me though, a thumb safety works best when re-holstering incase the edge of a holster or anything else gets caught in the trigger guard area. Not likely to happen but it sure can.
Yes, it works well for that when you remember to put it on safe. On those rare occasions, often following severe levels of stress, when you forget to put it on safe, you are likely to have no fall back habits that protect you from an accidental discharge.

There is no nice answer to this but optional safeties, as on the 1911, can lead to a false level of confidence which is not always justified. A properly designed backstrap safety would solve all these problems if combined with a slight change of technique so that the grip safety is not depressed as the pistol is re-holstered. Unfortunately, such a pistol is not made (with the half exception of the XD which I don't know well enough to make a proper comment). Why is this? Because the 1911 grip safety proved in practice to have problems to such an extent that many had it pinned off safe. The result is that manufacturers, as prone to fashion as others, stopped designing grip safeties into their pistols.

English

PS If you read what the man had to say, he had been practicing with a different holster which needed a thumb sweep to unlock it. Then he changed over to a Serpa which needed a trigger finger depression to unlock it. The thumb sweep took the pistol off safe and as the trigger finger did not properly unlock the Serpa he was trying to draw against unexpected resistance with his finger in the trigger guard. BANG! One moral of his experience is not to mix critical training habits. The other, for me and many others, is don't use a Serpa.

English

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 04:36
Depends on the safety. If it's conveniently located and operated like the M1911, CZ75, Browning Hi Power, then I'll use them. If it's something like SW or Beretta slide mounted hammer drop lever, then I'd use them to drop the hammer then flip them back up to the "Fire" position again. What's the point of leaving them in the "Safe" position in this case?

Ford302Glock21
05-26-2012, 04:56
Its a free country so do whatever you want either way, however, use some sound reasoning in your arguements.

I have come to a similar conclusion that I don't like safeties on my pistols. I am not a professional marksmen, leo, soldier, or secret agent that is paid to train heavily with firearms on a regular basis and can perfect a safety routine. In the unlikely and unexpected event of needing to draw my carry piece for defense, the less variables, the more likely my success. I have carried the 1911 in condition 1, and it is not near as comforting to quickly draw compared to a glock, sig, hk etc.

There are pistols that would not be considered safe to carry without a manual safety because they were designed that way. Nobody is forcing us to carry them.

I don't hear of anyone shooting themselves with glocks while reholstering. What is there to catch on in a holster? Anything can happen but this sounds like internet speculation. What is the ratio of this occurrence to the millions of glocks( XDs, sigs, hks, s&w,etc) out there?

Just because a safety lever is a good idea for some police officers does not make it good for a ccw citizen. Criminals can see the officer's weapon and try to grab. They don't know we have one until we draw from under a shirt. Don't tell me its safer because they might take it out of your hand and not know how to make it hot. If you have not removed the safety by that time, how were you planning to fire it?

How many revolvers have safety levers? Yes pretty much every long gun has a safety lever. Exactly when will you need to quickly pull a rifle out of a holster from under your shirt to protect your life?



Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

English
05-26-2012, 08:01
Ford302Glock21 - another good post.

English

CBennett
05-26-2012, 08:14
I LIKE them(manuAl sAfeties) but I don't think all guns need or require them nor do I have any predisposition to either types(manual or non) but I'm also not one of the idiots that says/does the...I'd be interested in that gun but it has a manual safety crap. My 2 favorite manual safeties are the ones on the XD line and the HKP7 squeezer.

My least favorite ones (thumb safeties)are on guns that either have long heavier da type trigger(that really don't need a thumb safety cause of the trigger essentially acting as one)..that said if it has one I don't care its all in the training

vafish
05-26-2012, 08:53
...
I like a manual safety, it allows me to be sure the gun is safe when wearing it at home or other crowded places. .....

A manual safety doesn't do that. Only your actions will ensure that your gun is safe at home or in crowed places.

Relying on a mechanical device to provide safety is just inviting an accident.

The best safety for a gun is found between the ears of the user.

maestrogustav
05-26-2012, 17:54
Two word answer:

Pee

Seven

hogship
05-26-2012, 18:30
I don't hear of anyone shooting themselves with glocks while reholstering. What is there to catch on in a holster? Anything can happen but this sounds like internet speculation. What is the ratio of this occurrence to the millions of glocks( XDs, sigs, hks, s&w,etc) out there?



I haven't seen it, but I have heard of it. I believe the specific example I heard of involved a holster retention strap that caught up in the trigger guard.

"Look your Glock into the holster"......that's good advice.

ooc

Boats
05-26-2012, 18:37
Best of all possible "solutions" is a constant action hammer fired pistol.

No manual safeties and you can cover the hammer with your thumb upon reholstering.

Veedubklown
05-27-2012, 19:01
I dislike manual safeties on a carry gun.

That's my personal preference. I don't mind if others use them :)

IDPA is not self-defense training, but if it was, I think it clearly shows that having no manual safety allows the shooter to be faster and more accurate.

It is also amusing to watch some people at IDPA stumble with their safety, either forgetting to swipe it off, or ineffectively swipping it off. Or if they have some other problem, they go back to the safey to see if it is the problem, and sometimes even swipe it back on and then try to shoot again :rofl:

Having said that, I carefully look my Glock back into my holster. More careful than if it had a manual safety, more careful than with my Beretta 92. Other people have other priorities, other preferences, so they might do things differently :)

Alot of it boils down to personal preference. The dude the OP is talking about, is obviously a moron, and we're past that.

I have a glock 26 that was the first handgun I owned. Never had an ND with it. I also have a double-stack 1911 I shoot IDPA ESP with, and I don't have an issue with the safety selector. Mine's extended, though. It has definitely not reduced my over-all times, believe me they've gotten MUCH better. I account this to mostly the difference between a 3" barrel and a 5", and the accompanying sight radius, but the safety switch is definitely not detrimental.

It's all in how you practice. The 1911 safety is very intuitive, and I didn't really have to incorporate any further muscle movement to my draw, because your thumb sweeps there anyway. I rest my thumb over the safety, and it makes a real nice rest. I have no issues in switching back and forth between my 1911 and glock. I shoot them both well, and alot. The 1911 is just funner.

Again, personal preference, like boxers or briefs.

concretefuzzynuts
05-27-2012, 19:15
Does anybody else wonder if "DaBurna" is "Cluznar" since he corrected "Radial" to "Radical" in all three of his posts? Me thinks me smell a troll.

You can't change the title of a thread. If I misspelled the title of a thread it would bother me, like it bothered Daburna enough to post three "reply" posts to correct his/her misspelling.

Just wondering.

CAcop
05-27-2012, 19:24
I have used both on and off duty. They both work as intended with training. And it really doesn't take much time to learn.

Andrewsky
05-28-2012, 00:32
The systems in common usage are all perfectly acceptable. It doesn't matter if the gun works like a revolver, BHP, M9, Sig, or Glock.

The worst is a DAO auto (unnecessary on an auto) or a pistol like a Nambu with a safety that is difficult to reach with the firing hand.

Sgt127
05-28-2012, 00:46
I carried a 1911, and shot IPSC for the first 15 years of my cop career. About 15 years ago, they took away our personally owned weapons (mine was a Wilson Master Grade .45)

To this day, every once in awhile, when I really get in a hurry, my thumb still sweeps off an imaginary safety on my Glock. Its particularly noticable if they are using a PACT timer...something about that "beep" trips some primordial trigger in my sub conscious.

Its wierd. As soon as I do it, I know its pointless.

I was as fast with a cocked and locked gun as I am with a Glock. It became part of the trigger stroke. NOT the draw.

Now, I would probably miss the safety, I'm too used to a "point and click" trigger.

Nakanokalronin
05-28-2012, 01:03
To be more related to actuality, the safety does not come off until the the gun is well on its way to the target. But unless the safety can be opperated without any change of grip, that slows down the first shot and that could get you killed.

Thumbing off a safety like a 1911, M&P, CZ-82, P238, BHP etc is easily achived as part of the gripping technique and draw. I grip all pistols without a manual safety the same way, with a thumbs forward grip while sweeping the area where a thumb safety would be. The first shot is not slowed down in the slightest.

Yes, it works well for that when you remember to put it on safe. On those rare occasions, often following severe levels of stress, when you forget to put it on safe, you are likely to have no fall back habits that protect you from an accidental discharge.

Just because one prefers a manual safety on a pistol does not mean they rely on it. I don't flick on a safety and then jam it any old way back into a holster.

There is no nice answer to this but optional safeties, as on the 1911, can lead to a false level of confidence which is not always justified. A properly designed backstrap safety would solve all these problems if combined with a slight change of technique so that the grip safety is not depressed as the pistol is re-holstered. Unfortunately, such a pistol is not made (with the half exception of the XD which I don't know well enough to make a proper comment). Why is this? Because the 1911 grip safety proved in practice to have problems to such an extent that many had it pinned off safe. The result is that manufacturers, as prone to fashion as others, stopped designing grip safeties into their pistols.

I have no problems with grip safeties, but some do because of hand size or grip technique which is why you see people complaining about them so much. In reality, they only block the trigger so if you don't want it, pin it, buy "the answer" or buy a gun without one. The thumb safety alone is enough. There is a reason why 1911s aren't for everyone so it's great that we have so many different pistols to choose from.

The XD grip safety blocks the sear which in turn blocks the slide. It simply does exactly what the thumb safety does on a 1911 only in a passive way. To reholster without touching it, you put your thumb on the back of the slide and grip the rest of the fingers normally.

English

PS If you read what the man had to say, he had been practicing with a different holster which needed a thumb sweep to unlock it. Then he changed over to a Serpa which needed a trigger finger depression to unlock it. The thumb sweep took the pistol off safe and as the trigger finger did not properly unlock the Serpa he was trying to draw against unexpected resistance with his finger in the trigger guard. BANG! One moral of his experience is not to mix critical training habits. The other, for me and many others, is don't use a Serpa.

Many people poke their finger into the Serpa release button which does indeed promote a higher chance of the finger going into the trigger guard. If you keep your finger straight out and push in the release button that way, it's along the frame like it's suppose to be. Myself and many others draw from a holster that way no matter what brand or type it is. I have no doubt the Serpa is banned from many LE agencies and training facilites since we're talking about beginners or those that don't train as much as they should. Many cops see their gun as another piece of equipment so as long as it's with them, the minimum range time needed seems good enough.

English

Like I've said before, if you don't want to train with a thumb safety to be like second nature, then get a gun without one. Proper technique and training is what counts and the fact that nobody should rely on a mechanical device to keep a gun safe is true with any pistol. My above statements pertain to many people out there and if someone thinks a trigger tab is enough, then that's fine.