Why Does The U.S. Military Choose Hammer Fired Sidearms? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Restless28
05-25-2012, 08:30
Why does the military choose hammer fired sidearms over striker fired ones? From the 1911 to the M9, and before that, revolvers, it seems that the hammer guns are preferred.

On the flip side, it seems that most LE agencies choose striker fire sidearms.

Fred Hansen
05-25-2012, 08:36
Because of the nonsense idea of "re-strike" capability.

Restless28
05-25-2012, 08:39
After 100 years, they still believe in "nonsense"? I don't get it.

faawrenchbndr
05-25-2012, 08:44
What nonsense? :dunno:

Line Rider
05-25-2012, 08:44
The Glock did not meet the specification of the M9 trails back in the early 80's if I remember correctly.

Why do most Law Enforcement agencies use Glock? The Price. $357.00 each before trading in the departments old guns. After trade in of about $200.00 to $225.00 the department price is about $150.00 per gun.

Kyle M.
05-25-2012, 08:48
My local pd issues the S&W 4006 even though it is discontinued. They also have a list if approved sidearms you can carry. I personally have no idea what is on the list.

FLIPPER 348
05-25-2012, 08:53
Because of the nonsense idea of "re-strike" capability.



In a combat situation it is far from nonsense

faawrenchbndr
05-25-2012, 08:58
Military weapon speculation from a civilian,.........sounds like a Politician. :faint:

Bob Hafler
05-25-2012, 09:07
I would say because it is a proven fact that there safe and it works, and has been doing so for a long time. We are not the only military that uses hammer fired pistols. Many Leo's and military in Europe use CZ's,Beretta's and other hammer fired pistols. I had no objection to the 1911 when I served. I'm not in the military anymore and I don't claim to think I know more than they do about what works best for them. So whatever they choose is fine with me. Just so long as it's not a piece of crap like the original M16.

faawrenchbndr
05-25-2012, 09:38
?..... Just so long as it's not a piece of crap like the original M16.

The original M16 design was solid. The Politicians & bean counters
are what screwed it up. Not to mention the Army not properly
training & equipping Soldiers with cleaning kits.

Bruce M
05-25-2012, 09:52
Why does the military choose hammer fired sidearms over striker fired ones? From the 1911 to the M9, and before that, revolvers, it seems that the hammer guns are preferred.

....
I do not know wy they pick what they choose now, but I am guessing when they picked revolvers with hammers it was because there was a relative scarcity of striker-fired revolvers.

countrygun
05-25-2012, 09:59
Why does the military choose hammer fired sidearms over striker fired ones? From the 1911 to the M9, and before that, revolvers, it seems that the hammer guns are preferred.

On the flip side, it seems that most LE agencies choose striker fire sidearms.

This is a joke, right?

Do your research. There were no striker fired revolvers to compete against t he SAA and still none when they used the DAs

There were IIR 2 striker fired Autos in the trials that led to the adoption of the 1911. Both eeither failed, or were too expensive or both.

Look at the Small arms program that led to the M-9, How many striker-fired pistols were in the program and how any completed the trials? There was a lean "preference expressed" for a hammer fired but not just for second strike but also as a safety factor and the ability to see from across an arms room that someone had a cocked weapon for instance. But none the less the Bretta design finished best in the tests.

Striker fired guns weren't that common even when the M-9 was chosen and unlike LEA and civillians the military doesn't jump on every new and shiny bandwagon that comes along. That would the really gain of use to a large program by changing platforms to shoot the same round they are shooting now?

CAcop
05-25-2012, 10:41
I had always thought hammer fired guns can pop hard primers more frequently.

hsprincipal
05-25-2012, 11:13
Why does it matter? They test them and choose what they think is best. We are still undefeated, so our weapons must be working. Right? God Bless the USA.....

TxGun
05-25-2012, 11:16
Why do most Law Enforcement agencies use Glock? The Price. $357.00 each before trading in the departments old guns. After trade in of about $200.00 to $225.00 the department price is about $150.00 per gun.

IME, and I participated in an RFI/RFP/Purchasing decision for a major PD as an outside consultant, competitors will come in within $25-$50 per pistol of each other and, at least in our case, training (both officers and armorers) and other after-buy support capabilities and commitment (spares, factory repair, parts, etc.) are the primary separators among the finalists who meet all the other criteria (reliability testing; man-weapon interface, i.e., ease-of-use; range tests, officer input, corrosion resistance, etc.).

Most departments are going to try to get at least 3-4 manufacturers into the competition initially to satisfy oversite committees (and paid consultants :thumbsup:).

countrygun
05-25-2012, 11:20
After 100 years, they still believe in "nonsense"? I don't get it.


You are aware that our guns have to be able to use all NATO spec ammo from other countries and that other Countries tend to use harder primers because of their use of submachine gunes? AFAIK even the vaunted Glock has not received NATO approval yet while hammer fired CZs have.

Your standard of "nonesense" doesn't seem to apply to the rest of the world.

TSAX
05-25-2012, 11:48
When I was in I never got into the whole debate/discussion, I watched many people argue this. I will say the M9 is a solid gun and the M11 (Sig P228) was great. They made a good choice, whatever the reason was and this is coming from a guy who is not a fan of the Beretta, that I carried for several years on duty and as an armorer. Would I have liked to see a Glock as the primary, sure but if I saw an M&P, HK, XD/XDM I would be happy as well.

And at least it wasn't a Taurus :whistling:







:50cal:

TxGun
05-25-2012, 12:05
AFAIK even the vaunted Glock has not received NATO approval yet while hammer fired CZs have.

Glock G17s (1005/17/144/3969) and G19s (1005/66/132/7731) both have carried NATO stock numbers for quite some time and are standard issue for several NATO militaries.

SPIN2010
05-25-2012, 12:16
In a combat situation it is far from nonsense


Fact, right there. :cool:

fnfalman
05-25-2012, 12:36
The HK P7M13 was made to compete in the XM9 trial (second trial). It was and is a striker fired handgun.

FLIPPER 348
05-25-2012, 13:51
It also has a 2nd/multiple strike capability.



Unless you have had to deal with muddy and/or frozen ammo your striker fired pistols will do you just fine at the pistol range.

countrygun
05-25-2012, 13:58
The HK P7M13 was made to compete in the XM9 trial (second trial). It was and is a striker fired handgun.


Didn't win, did it?

banger
05-25-2012, 14:07
A question to the O.P..

In what way have hammer fired pistols failed?

1911, Beretta 92, TT30/33, Walther P-38, Browning Hi-Powers, and many more, are counted among the best and most reliable pistols ever used in military service in virtually every environment.

Environments from the Arctic to the Sahara, to the jungles of Southeast Asia, the woods and fields of Europe, even to the windswept islands of the Falklands.

If it ain't broke....Ahhhh....you know the rest.

I have always had a soft spot in my heart for hose guys that buy a pistol, (maybe 10), proceed to fire several thousand rounds, (maybe 20k) and think they know better than the "Big Green Machine".

The "machine" that buys 100's of thousands of pistols, and fires countless BILLIONS of rounds.

A "machine" that uses it's equipment for DECADES.

A "machine" that tests and USES it's equipment in every environment on Earth.

A "machine" that by the time it's done with it's pistols has placed them into the hands of MILLIONS of users.

countrygun
05-25-2012, 14:12
A question to the O.P..

In what way have hammer fired pistols failed?

1911, Beretta 92, TT30/33, Walther P-38, Browning Hi-Powers, and many more, are counted among the best and most reliable pistols ever used in military service in virtually every environment.

Environments from the Arctic to the Sahara, to the jungles of Southeast Asia, the woods and fields of Europe, even to the windswept islands of the Falklands.

If it ain't broke....Ahhhh....you know the rest.


But all the "cool" kids have striker fired pistols

Glockdude1
05-25-2012, 14:17
The HK P7M13 was made to compete in the XM9 trial (second trial). It was and is a striker fired handgun.

The only down side the the HK P7's is heat. They heat up more than other pistols due to the gas system used. Other than that, they are very accurate, reliable, easy to carry handguns.

:cool:

Fred Hansen
05-25-2012, 14:21
In a combat situation it is far from nonsenseA person can re-strike on an empty chamber all day long, and the pistol will never make that funny 'bang' noise. In the confusion of battle, a regular soldier* won't have any way to know if the hammer fell on an empty chamber (forgot to rack the slide in the first place), a slide out of battery, or an empty chamber due to failure to lock back on an empty mag. Tap/rack/bang is very fast and effective.

Somewhere there is a bean-counter's report on the tiny fraction of a % of enemy soldiers killed with a handgun during combat; somewhere in that tome is a sidebar reporting the microscopic fraction of a % of enemy soldiers killed with a handgun during combat with re-strike. It likely sits right next to the bean-counter's report on the many thousands of rounds that go downrange in ratio to the number of enemy soldiers killed.

*Super soldiers can employ x-ray vision to determine the chamber's condition.

barth
05-25-2012, 14:32
The only down side the the HK P7's is heat. They heat up more than other pistols due to the gas system used. Other than that, they are very accurate, reliable, easy to carry handguns.

:cool:

I considered an HK P7 at one time.
It's weakness IMHO was that due to it's unique gas operation it needed to be really clean to function properly.
Not good in a military handgun.

Plus it's rather expensive to produce and repair.

fnfalman
05-25-2012, 14:35
I considered an HK P7 at one time.
It's weakness IMHO was that due to it's unique gas operation it needed to be really clean to function properly.
Not good in a military handgun.

Plus it's rather expensive to produce and repair.

It's a delayed blowback system that used a gas piston to help delay the blowback. It's not a gas operated pistol. As far as I can tell the only modern pistol that's gas operated was/is the Desert Eagle.

As far as it's expensive to produce...psst...it was one of the cheapest pistols in the 1980s Wundernine market.

fnfalman
05-25-2012, 14:36
Didn't win, did it?

I didn't say whether or not it won. I just said that it was a striker fired pistol meant for the second XM9 trial, ergo the wives' tales that a hammer is a must for the US Board of Ordnance's requirement is bunk.

countrygun
05-25-2012, 14:47
I didn't say whether or not it won. I just said that it was a striker fired pistol meant for the second XM9 trial, ergo the wives' tales that a hammer is a must for the US Board of Ordnance's requirement is bunk.

Ah, indeed. striker fired was tried in the 1911 trials as well.

People just don't seem to understand that the military doesn't paw over every issue of "Combat Handguns" and obsolete what they have everytime something new comes along. It is probably a good thing because we would jump all over them for wasting tax dollars.


It is a huge undertaking to replace the sidearm. as far as I can see, at this point, it is almost a "golden era" for units with special weapons needs as far as getting something else. Funny thing most of the units who are allowed to spec out something other than the M-9 are picking a hammer fired pistol:whistling:

Check my Gat
05-25-2012, 15:35
The P7 didn't win because its an unusual pistol with lousy capacity for a combat handgun in the year 1985.

CAcop
05-25-2012, 16:06
I considered an HK P7 at one time.
It's weakness IMHO was that due to it's unique gas operation it needed to be really clean to function properly.
Not good in a military handgun.

Plus it's rather expensive to produce and repair.

I had one. I never cleaned the gas system.

The big thing I had against it was the fact it heated up. Back when I had it 9mm was dirt cheap so I shot a lot in one session. I think it worked better as a duty gun for rank and file cops. They were not likely to heat the thing up too much without at least giving it a break.

If HK had insulated the gas system better it would have been perfect.

G26S239
05-25-2012, 16:12
The P7 didn't win because its an unusual pistol with lousy capacity for a combat handgun in the year 1985.
fnfalman was referring to the M13 variant. 13 + 1 is not a lousy capacity. For that matter neither is 8 +1.

Check my Gat
05-25-2012, 16:31
fnfalman was referring to the M13 variant. 13 + 1 is not a lousy capacity. For that matter neither is 8 +1.

I had no idea that they entered the P7M13. That being said, there are a ton of 8+1 P7s floating around The United States so I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you think the only variants are the 13 and the 10. I don't know.

Oh, I misread your post, you were saying 8+1 isn't lousy capacity.

For a combat handgun when there are 17+1 options out there in weapons that are a similar size and weight, it really is.

FLIPPER 348
05-25-2012, 17:56
A person can re-strike on an empty chamber all day long, and the pistol will never make that funny 'bang' noise.

*Super soldiers can employ x-ray vision to determine the chamber's condition.

hmmm, interesting concept I guess. But the 2nd strike capability has nothing to do with pulling the trigger on an empty chamber.

Check my Gat
05-25-2012, 18:05
hmmm, interesting concept I guess. But the 2nd strike capability has nothing to do with pulling the trigger on an empty chamber.

You're missing the main thrust of their argument entirely. 2nd strike is stupid and can get you killed if you're just pulling on an empty chamber or a dud primer. The best answer is always to cycle the weapon and pull again, not sit there fingerbanging a double action trigger all day.

Sendarr
05-25-2012, 18:10
You're missing the main thrust of their argument entirely. 2nd strike is stupid and can get you killed if you're just pulling on an empty chamber or a dud primer. The best answer is always to cycle the weapon and pull again, not sit there fingerbanging a double action trigger all day.

All day? I'd think "second" strike means two. After that I would tap and rack lol

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Check my Gat
05-25-2012, 18:12
All day? I'd think "second" strike means two. After that I would tap and rack lol

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine
Even the second pull on the same chamber state is a waste of time. Cycling the weapon has a much higher probability of fixing whatever the issue was.

barth
05-25-2012, 18:12
It's a delayed blowback system that used a gas piston to help delay the blowback. It's not a gas operated pistol. As far as I can tell the only modern pistol that's gas operated was/is the Desert Eagle.

As far as it's expensive to produce...psst...it was one of the cheapest pistols in the 1980s Wundernine market.

They tend to malfunction when dirty.
That's no military pistol by any standard.

HK doesn't even make them anymore right?
The gun was discontinued for a reason.

I don't foresee Sig stopping production of P220s anytime soon

Restless28
05-25-2012, 18:16
Did the CZ75 compete in the trials that the Beretta won?

countrygun
05-25-2012, 18:19
Did the CZ75 compete in the trials that the Beretta won?


We didn't invite bids from Russian satellite Countries at that time.

FLIPPER 348
05-25-2012, 18:57
All day? I'd think "second" strike means two. After that I would tap and rack




Easy there with the logic and reasoning. The striker pistol folks can't relate and are a bit butt-hurt that their favorite pistol will never be considered for US Military service (for good reason)

Restless28
05-25-2012, 19:09
Easy there with the logic and reasoning. The striker pistol folks can't relate and are a bit butt-hurt that their favorite pistol will never be considered for US Military service (for good reason)

Sir, you just crapped in a lot of fanboys corn flakes.
















Well done sir. :supergrin:

Jason D
05-25-2012, 19:25
The original M16 design was solid. The Politicians & bean counters
are what screwed it up. Not to mention the Army not properly
training & equipping Soldiers with cleaning kits.

Yep.

Non chrome lining the barrel and changing the powder go right in there too. Someone wanted to see the M16 fail big time. I wonder how many Troops had to die because someone had a hardon against the M16.


Striker fired pistols have been around a very long time. Much longer than Glock has been touting them.

arclight610
05-25-2012, 19:26
We didn't invite bids from Russian satellite Countries at that time.

Maybe Iraq will enter the Tabuk for the next carbine trials :whistling:

Sgt_Gold
05-25-2012, 20:12
As far as it's expensive to produce...psst...it was one of the cheapest pistols in the 1980s Wundernine market.

The P7 was over $700 in the mid 1980's, hardly one of the cheapest on the market.

jeager
05-25-2012, 20:45
The P7 was over $700 in the mid 1980's, hardly one of the cheapest on the market.

Only person I knew who had one of those things,
says it "Bit Him"

ChuteTheMall
05-25-2012, 21:05
... not just for second strike but also as a safety factor and the ability to see from across an arms room that someone had a cocked weapon for instance.

I agree that may be a factor, but why only with pistols?
Why not the post-'97 Winchester shotguns, and why not every rifle within a century?
I don't see very many cocked hammers.


Tap/rack/bang is very fast and effective.


One response, solving multiple problems.
Works for LEOs, should work for GIs too.

best answer is always to cycle the weapon and pull again, not sit there fingerbanging a double action trigger all day.

One cure, for many diseases.:rofl:

Good enough for cops & NATO, someday the right palms will get greased and Glocks will become good enough for our military.
Right now we need bases in Italy more than in Austria.:tinfoil:

FLIPPER 348
05-25-2012, 21:13
One response, solving multiple problems.
Works for LEOs, should work for GIs too.


:rofl:

Good enough for cops & NATO, someday the right palms will get greased and Glocks will become good enough for our military.


:tinfoil:

two very different environments

majette
05-25-2012, 22:17
Didn't win, did it?

the p7m13 beat the m9 handily in the first round of testing. it was not selected to proceed to the second round.

Check my Gat
05-25-2012, 22:25
Easy there with the logic and reasoning. The striker pistol folks can't relate and are a bit butt-hurt that their favorite pistol will never be considered for US Military service (for good reason)
Glock declined DoD's invite to the XM9 trials. You don't know what you're talking about.

As a side note, CAG has Glocks. Team guys and mainline guys who have COC approval (or can get away with it) also frequently carry them and one of the weapons a lot of team guys qual on is the G19. I don't know what you did in the military, but you're making the common mistake a lot of guys do which is get in the following mindset.

I AM ALL THAT IS THE US ARMY.

Normally, I only see this attitude in junior enlistedmen, so bravo to you.

Check my Gat
05-25-2012, 22:35
the p7m13 beat the m9 handily in the first round of testing. it was not selected to proceed to the second round.

Weapons that are unconventional relative to what the Army already has in operation or appearance have a tendency of being ****canned for no real reason unless they are being developed on contract.

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 01:35
The P7 was over $700 in the mid 1980's, hardly one of the cheapest on the market.

I don't know where you were shopping from but the P7 and P9 were in the $400 range and the SIG Sauer P22X and Beretta 92 were in the $600 range.

Quiet
05-26-2012, 04:58
Easy there with the logic and reasoning. The striker pistol folks can't relate and are a bit butt-hurt that their favorite pistol will never be considered for US Military service (for good reason)

US SOCOM uses all sorts of pistols, including Glocks.

Pics from the United States Army Special Operations Command’s Capabilities Exercise in April 2012.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2882ezq.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/capex20121878u8w.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/capex201217isuxm.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/wt6lq1.jpghttp://i49.tinypic.com/11ca15i.jpg

Notice the FDE Glock magazines.
Glock made them several years ago per request by CAG (when they switched from .45ACP 1911s to .40S&W Glock 22s), so they don't accidently mix 9x19mm Glock magazines with .40S&W Glock magazines.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/762minigun/040.jpg

Foxtrotx1
05-26-2012, 05:37
One thing to consider...

In a freezing environment, its much easier to un stick a frozen hammer than a striker channel.

Bob Hafler
05-26-2012, 05:38
The US military likes what they like when it comes to pistols. There the last line of defense and they have a lot more things to be concerned about. Plus that, what is exactly wrong with the hammer fired pistol that they should be all worried about?

Foxtrotx1
05-26-2012, 05:41
The US military likes what they like when it comes to pistols. There the last line of defense and they have a lot more things to be concerned about. Plus that, what is exactly wrong with the hammer fired pistol that they should be all worried about?

The Fanboys are trying to distract from the ejection issues their pistols are having ATM.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 07:50
US SOCOM uses all sorts of pistols, including Glocks.





That has nothing to do with the service pistol selection criteria.

Andrewsky
05-26-2012, 09:03
The logical thing to do would just have been to adopt and produce an FN Hi Power locally. The safety system works the same as an M16. It has a very strong ignition system.

I don't believe in attempting second strikes, based on my experience with light primer strikes. It's better to try a different round. I've had several where it took more than two pulls of the trigger to get the gun to fire.

S&WShooter
05-26-2012, 09:27
Sir, you just crapped in a lot of fanboys corn flakes.



Well done sir. :supergrin:

I think it just made him sound like a fan boy...

TalkToTheGlock
05-26-2012, 09:37
Sig/Beretta/HK/CZ/FN > Glock.

jeremy1
05-26-2012, 10:02
In a combat situation it is far from nonsense

How many service rifles have a second strike capability?

Restless28
05-26-2012, 10:26
Sig/Beretta > Glock.

You forgot CZ and HK.:wavey:

TalkToTheGlock
05-26-2012, 10:42
You forgot CZ and HK.:wavey:

Edited my post for ya!

arclight610
05-26-2012, 10:57
How many service rifles have a second strike capability?

Double action trigger isn't really conducive to good long-range accuracy, which is the purpose of a rifle.

countrygun
05-26-2012, 11:04
How many service rifles have a second strike capability?


In use the service rifle uses both hands, ergo both are available to recycle the action.

The Pistol is issued to folks who are supposed to be doing something else with some other tool. The pistol is an "oh split" weapon. Often it is deployed with one hand, at close range, while the other hand is ocupied. While double strike gives you a slim chance of making a loud noise out of a dud, with only one hand, striker fired gives you no chance.

jeremy1
05-26-2012, 11:06
Double action trigger isn't really conducive to good long-range accuracy, which is the purpose of a rifle.

I agree, however I don't see second strike as a critical feature for any weapon system.

faawrenchbndr
05-26-2012, 11:25
How many posting in this thread have actually been in the military?!

Restless28
05-26-2012, 11:28
How many posting in this thread have actually been in the military?!

I have, but it was Navy.

arclight610
05-26-2012, 11:52
Probably alot of folks in this thread have been in the military.

Boats
05-26-2012, 12:59
the p7m13 beat the m9 handily in the first round of testing. it was not selected to proceed to the second round.

That is patently false. In all versions of the XM9 trial except the first Army trial in which every 9mm entrant was "flunked," the Beretta 92, 92SB, and finally the 92F, which became the FS, was a technically acceptable finalist.

The HKP7M13 didn't outlast the S&W 459. The HK was kicked from the trials for substandard reliability.

Boats
05-26-2012, 13:02
US SOCOM uses all sorts of pistols, including Glocks.

Pics from the United States Army Special Operations Command’s Capabilities Exercise in April 2012.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2882ezq.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/capex20121878u8w.jpg
http://www.abload.de/img/capex201217isuxm.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/wt6lq1.jpghttp://i49.tinypic.com/11ca15i.jpg

Notice the FDE Glock magazines.
Glock made them several years ago per request by CAG (when they switched from .45ACP 1911s to .40S&W Glock 22s), so they don't accidently mix 9x19mm Glock magazines with .40S&W Glock magazines.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y51/762minigun/040.jpg

The only way I'd fire a Gen 4 Glock repeatedly is while wearing a helmet and goggles.

Andy W
05-26-2012, 13:27
Wait, didn't the Sig Sauer P226 actually come in first in the XM9 trial while Beretta was a close second? As I understand it though, Beretta got the contract because they were able to offer a better deal.

Speaking of which, why do the Navy SEAL teams use the P226 instead of the Beretta? For that matter, why does the military use the Sig Sauer P228 when Beretta made a compact version of the 92 that would have done the same thing?

ReyFufuRulesAll
05-26-2012, 13:35
Military weapon speculation from a civilian,.........sounds like a Politician. :faint:

+1 :thumbsup:






that'd be more funny if it weren't so true :crying:

Boats
05-26-2012, 13:57
Wait, didn't the Sig Sauer P226 actually come in first in the XM9 trial while Beretta was a close second? As I understand it though, Beretta got the contract because they were able to offer a better deal.

Speaking of which, why do the Navy SEAL teams use the P226 instead of the Beretta? For that matter, why does the military use the Sig Sauer P228 when Beretta made a compact version of the 92 that would have done the same thing?

Both the Beretta and the SIG P226 finished the trials as "technically acceptable." The SIG beat the Beretta in some tests, but infamously, an entire test section had to be thrown out after the SIG examples all failed the dried mud test that the Beretta examples passed.

The SEALS use the P226 because they broke some M9 pistol slides in testing early on when to meet demand the delivered pistols were using French sourced overrun slides that contained a trace element in the steel which made them unintentionally brittle. Though the metallurgical problem was ultimately identified, a permanent modification was made to the pistol going forward, namely an oversized hammer pin to prevent the slide from flying of the frame backwards during a catastrophic failure. The commercial designation went from 92F to 92FS as a result.

The 228 is in service as a sop to the XM9 runner up. Had the 226 won the trial the 92 Compact would be the alternate pistol.

hogship
05-26-2012, 14:01
:cool:The original M16 design was solid. The Politicians & bean counters
are what screwed it up. Not to mention the Army not properly
training & equipping Soldiers with cleaning kits.

Agreed.........

I have a hard time believing anyone who is issued a personal weapon isn't also issued a cleaning kit.

It would not be a stretch to think that blaming the firearm, or cleaning kit is a convenient excuse for overlooking their own procrastination, or lack of military discipline/standards.........:shocked:

You give some people the best equipment, best training, .......and, the blame for malfunctions will never be with the real cause......themselves! :whistling:

I was issued one of the original M16s, and never had a problem with it. It was clean, and ready for use at all times. 99% of everyone else did their basic maintenance as well......but, there will always be some who never will.

.....a solid platform........yep! :supergrin:

I'd be willing to bet money that if we took a little trip to today's war zones, we'd still find some people who depend on their weapons for their own survival.......who do not keep it clean and/or maintained.

These boys work in a dirty environment, whether it's water, mud, sand, humidity, dryness, dust......or, whatever........most of them make damn sure they do whatever they can to make sure their weapons do not fail......and some of them never will!

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL431/781008/1773175/26178419.jpg

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 14:02
How many service rifles have a second strike capability?

About a many service rifles that are pistols.

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 14:04
The Fanboys are trying to distract from the ejection issues their pistols are having ATM.

Ass to Mouth?

I don't get it?

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 14:04
I agree, however I don't see second strike as a critical feature for any weapon system.


How much time have you spent in the field or in the Military?? (not the air force or navy)

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 14:04
How many service rifles have a second strike capability?

How many service rifles don't have hammers?

hogship
05-26-2012, 14:09
How much time have you spent in the field or in the Military?? (not the air force or navy)

I have spent some time in a combat zone, as one of the trigger pullers.

I don't recall ever having a misfire. Are we having this problem these days? Even if we did have some misfires with current ammo, I'd think the best way to train for it would be the "tap, rack, bang"......not to keep pulling the trigger.

ooc

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 14:17
I was not asking you btw.

Training is a great thing. Where dies this 'keep pulling the trigger 'nonsense come from?? It has nothing to do with the fact that the US Military will be sticking with hammer fired pistols.

hogship
05-26-2012, 14:25
I was not asking you btw.

Training is a great thing. Where dies this 'keep pulling the trigger 'nonsense come from?? It has nothing to do with the fact that the US Military will be sticking with hammer fired pistols.

Yeah, I know Flipper......but, I decided to respond anyway! :wavey:

I would think "keep pulling the trigger" is pretty much the same thing as "second strike capability". In either case, I have no idea if that's the reason why our military has chosen to go with hammer fired pistols. In any case, it really doesn't matter, does it? Some people believe that, and that's the thought behind my comment.......not that the military required it for that reason, or not.

ooc.........:supergrin:

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 14:32
Yeah, I know Flipper......but, I decided to respond anyway! :wavey:

I would think "keep pulling the trigger" is pretty much the same thing as "second strike capability". In either case, I have no idea if that's the reason why our military has chosen to go with hammer fired pistols. In any case, it really doesn't matter, does it? Some people believe that, and that's the thought behind my comment.......not that the military required it for that reason, or not.

ooc.........:supergrin:

Probably because during the XM9 second trial, the HK P7M13 was the only striker fired gun that had second strike capability and it didn't win.

I think that the US Board of Ordnance wanted second strike capability and not hammer fired. If that's the case then HK wouldn't have modified the P7 into the P7M13, of which they did specifically for the second XM9 trial.

Restless28
05-26-2012, 14:39
Ass to Mouth?

I don't get it?

At the moment?

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 14:41
At the moment?

Teehee.:embarassed:

hogship
05-26-2012, 14:52
Probably because during the XM9 second trial, the HK P7M13 was the only striker fired gun that had second strike capability and it didn't win.

I think that the US Board of Ordnance wanted second strike capability and not hammer fired. If that's the case then HK wouldn't have modified the P7 into the P7M13, of which they did specifically for the second XM9 trial.

Hello fnfalman.......

That would seem to make some sense.......it's not about the hammer, but it is certainly about the second strike capability.

To me, this requirement doesn't make a lot of sense, considering I've never seen a primer failure. Those who make the final decision on the specifications, are probably not experienced in combat......but, I would imagine there are those are combat savvy, and do advise these people.

I am a little puzzled as to why the second strike capability would be so important that it would disqualify everything else without that specific ability.......:dunno:

When I was in the military, the 1911a1 was still the issue sidearm.......so, the procedure to clear a malfunction is the same as for a Glock, Smith M&P, XD, etc.

ooc

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 16:20
How many posting in this thread have actually been in the military?!
Current. Army.

For example, I found out about the Glocks in CAG from SOAR's S-3 who has a Battalion command now. I am not riding the internet wave. Okay, now that we got that out there.

countrygun
05-26-2012, 16:27
I still think, at this moment, it all boils down to the fact that there is no need to replace the M-9 simply because other designs have come along.

NEOH212
05-26-2012, 16:35
Apparently because they are in line with what the Military wants in a side are I suppose.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 16:51
I still think, at this moment, it all boils down to the fact that there is no need to replace the M-9 simply because other designs have come along.
Well, it is the same old story every time.

The initial testing for the procurement was all ****ed up or mired in potential ineptitude/minor corruption and now we're stuck with mediocre equipment that would be expensive to replace.

WorrGlock
05-26-2012, 16:55
In a combat situation it is far from nonsense






I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

:whistling:

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 17:01
I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

:whistling:
Whether or not that's what the procurement guys thought was awesome when we were getting the weapon, I can tell you now that no end user in the Army values double banging the chamber. I've never seen you had a malfunction so pull the trigger again taught. Cycle the weapon and try again only. Malfunctions are serious and you don't rely on chance to remedy them.

You always go with the highest probability of resolution if time permits.

So yes, second strike is nonsense.

countrygun
05-26-2012, 17:15
Well, it is the same old story every time.

The initial testing for the procurement was all ****ed up or mired in potential ineptitude/minor corruption and now we're stuck with mediocre equipment that would be expensive to replace.


Yah, the M-1 Garand is sure an example of the "everytime theory". So was the 1911 come to think of it.

Restless28
05-26-2012, 17:20
Well, it is the same old story every time.

The initial testing for the procurement was all ****ed up or mired in potential ineptitude/minor corruption and now we're stuck with mediocre equipment that would be expensive to replace.


What's mediocre about the M9 other than your opinion on it?

Restless28
05-26-2012, 17:21
I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

:whistling:

What branch did you serve in?

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 17:39
What's mediocre about the M9 other than your opinion on it?

Stands up to high volume use very poorly. I've seen M9s that are all over a human silhouette, fired from a rest, because they've got a pretty unimpressive but high for the type round count. This is unacceptable in a military issue pistol with the amount of rounds we fire in pre-deployment training.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 17:43
Yah, the M-1 Garand is sure an example of the "everytime theory". So was the 1911 come to think of it.

You're demonstrating a profound lack of reading comprehension and critical thought here demonstrated by the following.

1)Failing to recognize clearly hyperbolic language.

2)When did we adopt the Garand and 1911? Oh, 8 and 10 decades ago respectively. That is not reflective of contemporary procurement procedures.

I was also unimpressed with the use of sarcasm in its lowest form, it is very passive aggressive and the kind of the thing that will get you a death stare in a briefing room. I welcome you to dismiss my statements, just do it straightforwardly.

hogship
05-26-2012, 17:44
What's mediocre about the M9 other than your opinion on it?

In my opinion, the Beretta is a superior platform over the 1911......but, the 9mm cartridge is inferior to the 45acp, especially for the ball ammo our soldiers are required to use.

Even so, I believe I'd choose the M9 over the 1911, if I had to make that choice. This is because the Beretta has other positive things that (imho) outweigh the drawbacks of the 9mm cartridge........:supergrin:

ooc

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 17:50
In my opinion, the Beretta is a superior platform over the 1911......but, the 9mm cartridge is inferior to the 45acp, especially for the ball ammo our soldiers are required to use.

Even so, I believe I'd choose the M9 over the 1911, if I had to make that choice. This is because the Beretta has other positive things that (imho) outweigh the drawbacks of the 9mm cartridge........:supergrin:

ooc

I like the M9 better at round 1. At round 50k, I will take the 1911.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 17:53
Stands up to high volume use very poorly. I've seen M9s that are all over a human silhouette, fired from a rest, because they've got a pretty unimpressive but high for the type round count. This is unacceptable in a military issue pistol with the amount of rounds we fire in pre-deployment training.
Just because the shooter was using a rest doesnt mean there is no human error. I have a 92fs (the exact same thing as the m9) At 15 - 20 yards if I do my part I still get palm sized groups and I have small hands. I have personally put just a hair under 20,000 rounds through... I bought it used. Another shooter by the name of ben stoger has well over 100,000 rounds through a couple different 92s/varients. Funny thing is they still group fine.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:06
Just because the shooter was using a rest doesnt mean there is no human error. I have a 92fs (the exact same thing as the m9) At 15 - 20 yards if I do my part I still get palm sized groups and I have small hands. I have personally put just a hair under 20,000 rounds through... I bought it used. Another shooter by the name of ben stoger has well over 100,000 rounds through a couple different 92s/varients. Funny thing is they still group fine.

20,000 rounds on a pistol is nothing. Privately owned weapons are maintained and used very very differently than issued pistols passed around different armories, hand receipts and end users.

We know well that the subcontracted magazines suck, the alloy parts wear quickly and minor parts break with unacceptable speed/frequency and stories about your private owner friends who skip under rainbows holding hands with their 92 doesn't change that reality.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 18:19
20,000 rounds on a pistol is nothing. Privately owned weapons are maintained and used very very differently than issued pistols passed around different armories, hand receipts and end users.

We know well that the subcontracted magazines suck, the alloy parts wear quickly and minor parts break with unacceptable speed/frequency and stories about your private owner friends who skip under rainbows holding hands with their 92 doesn't change that reality.

They are used differently? You guys dont shoot them? Are you using them a ladders? Hammer? Shoot them enough and place your mre on them to heat up the mre?
Or infact are you training with them, shooting them, and carrying them, maybe they get banged around on humvees and such but not a gigantic stretch from what most other people are doing with a handgun.

Are the GI's not issued cleaning kits? Are you just spitting on the rails and hoping for the best?
Or do you clean them after use/the days use, and report damages to the armorer much like you would with a m16/m4?

Subcontract mags you can not blame on the gun.

Alloy frames wear out quickly? 100,000 and still going strong rounds is quickly?

Minor parts break? Talking about springs and such? Every last gun will do that... Maybe someone should inform the armorer?

Boats
05-26-2012, 18:23
What I find amusing about the military is that everyone, in every branch, *****es about their equipment.

Had the SIG P226 become the M9, its reputation would have horribly suffered for it. Just look at all of the changes that took place on the pistol without being the front line pistol of a large Army that actually fights people.

The folded and stamped slide was ultimately a wear and tear no go.

The trigger bar spring used to be a watch area as it could chew its way across the grip frame towards the mag catch button hole until that area was beefed up in the milling program on later pistols.

The SIG series used to rust like crazy the moment you weren't looking directly at them.

The backup QB is always the most popular guy on the team because he is all about potential rather than the one out there taking the lumps.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:27
Are the GI's not issued cleaning kits?
The fact that you're calling soldiers "GI" communicates to me clearly that you are poorly informed

Subcontract mags you can not blame on the gun.
I didn't but it is an issue all the same

Alloy frames wear out quickly? 100,000 and still going strong rounds is quickly?
No offense but I smell bull****. Not even close in my experience. Or Beretta's. Go ahead and scroll down to expected durability of the frame.
http://www.berettausa.com/products/model-92a1/

Minor parts break? Talking about springs and such? Every last gun will do that... Maybe someone should inform the armorer?

They shouldn't break at this rate in the first place, and if they break when you need the weapon you're super ****ed. We've seen this happen. Fly off with your BS little civy, even Beretta's reps would probably tell you 100,000 rounds smells like a load.

banger
05-26-2012, 18:31
Hey guys....

I don't get it.:dunno:

I'm all for vibrant discourse but....Why are you feeding this troll.

I'll be you a shinny new Nickel he 15 years old and his "real word experience" comes from playing "World of Warcraft".

Restless28
05-26-2012, 18:35
Hey guys....

I don't get it.:dunno:

I'm all for vibrant discourse but....Why are you feeding this troll.

I'll be you a shinny new Nickel he 15 years old and his "real word experience" comes from playing "World of Warcraft".

For sport, of course.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:36
Hey guys....

I don't get it.:dunno:

I'm all for vibrant discourse but....Why are you feeding this troll.

I'll be you a shinny new Nickel he 15 years old and his "real word experience" comes from playing "World of Warcraft".
How dare these little whippersnapper officers in their 30s have more experience in the contemporary operational environment than me.

The internet is great in that in can bring out the most juvenile behavior in anyone.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:41
For sport, of course.
Are we in the presidential race or something? The discourse has gone something like this.

A)The Beretta's alloy parts cause it to have an inferior service life and excessive parts breakages.
B)Well I know a guy who claims he has fired more than that out of a very, very small sample size of weapons without issue.
A)Big deal, I've seen otherwise with a large sample size and Beretta's own claims don't disprove but also don't support yours.
B) (You, now) TROLL. YOU'RE 15 AND YOU'RE A BIG LIAR.

Seriously, you are very pathetic. Ciao.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 18:41
They shouldn't break at this rate in the first place, and if they break when you need the weapon you're super ****ed. We've seen this happen. Fly off with your BS little civy, even Beretta's reps would probably tell you 100,000 rounds smells like a load.
Yea I called em GI's. What of it? Its a 6 and half a dozen issue.

Then why even bring the mags up? You would get the same experience with any issued sidearm

Go ahead and reread it. That is when the testing stopped.

They shouldnt break in the first place??? Any hard use gun will reveal the same result. Its a machine with small parts. Like every other machine ever made, ever. Things will break. No miracle behind it.

As for "my friend" hes not my friend. He shoots IDPA I beleive. Hes a sponsored shooter. You can talk to him yourself over on the beretta forum? Want me to give you a link? He is also far from the only one that has very similar results.

Little civvy? What exactly do you do, what branch? Let me guess you are actually a civilian cooking meals for the guys in basic?

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 18:48
How dare these little whippersnapper officers in their 30s have more experience in the contemporary operational environment than me.

The internet is great in that in can bring out the most juvenile behavior in anyone.
Isnt it though? Your statement coming from a guy who just called me "little civvy" Cute right?

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:48
Yea I called em GI's. What of it? Its a 6 and half a dozen issue.

Then why even bring the mags up? You would get the same experience with any issued sidearm
I've been exposed to a few issued sidearms that are issued on a unit basis and no, they don't

Go ahead and reread it. That is when the testing stopped.

They shouldnt break in the first place??? Any hard use gun will reveal the same result. Its a machine with small parts. Like every other machine ever made, ever. Things will break. No miracle behind it.

Little civvy? Let me guess, your the cook?

Right now I'm the S-3 at an Infantry battalion. Not exactly as qualified as retirees from not-infantry and civilians to comment if I have a dissenting opinion though, apparently.

countrygun
05-26-2012, 18:48
You're demonstrating a profound lack of reading comprehension and critical thought here demonstrated by the following.

1)Failing to recognize clearly hyperbolic language.

2)When did we adopt the Garand and 1911? Oh, 8 and 10 decades ago respectively. That is not reflective of contemporary procurement procedures.

I was also unimpressed with the use of sarcasm in its lowest form, it is very passive aggressive and the kind of the thing that will get you a death stare in a briefing room. I welcome you to dismiss my statements, just do it straightforwardly.

OK. I dismiss your statement as either uneducated, or an unrecognizable attempt at making a an undecipherable point.

Happy now?

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:49
Isnt it though? Your statement coming from a guy who just caled me "little civvy" Cute right?

You're in Independence MO so I made a pretty solid guess based on good evidence you're a civilian. I was probably right too.

Sheepdog Scout
05-26-2012, 18:50
I see another decent thread has turned into a GT pissing match.:rofl:

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 18:50
Are we in the presidential race or something? The discourse has gone something like this.

A)The Beretta's alloy parts cause it to have an inferior service life and excessive parts breakages.
B)Well I know a guy who claims he has fired more than that out of a very, very small sample size of weapons without issue.
A)Big deal, I've seen otherwise with a large sample size and Beretta's own claims don't disprove but also don't support yours.
B) (You, now) TROLL. YOU'RE 15 AND YOU'RE A BIG LIAR.

Seriously, you are very pathetic. Ciao.
A) You still havnt showed them to have a inferior service life?
b) We know a guy who claims to be in the services, claims to have seem a large sample size
C) arnt you kinda trolling aswell? Hard to throw rocks when you live in a glass house?

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:51
OK. I dismiss yout statement as either uneducated, or an unrecognizable attempt at making a an undecipherable point.

Happy now?
Its uneducated because I should have said "But that one time way back when they did okay procuring the Garand and the 1911"?

Last I checked none of the guys involved in either process are still alive. Irrelevant.

hogship
05-26-2012, 18:51
Right now I'm the S-3 at an Infantry battalion. Not exactly as qualified as retirees from not-infantry and civilians to comment if I have a dissenting opinion though, apparently.

Right now, what you should do is calm down, and re-group your thoughts. These boys are eating you for lunch.

Your service to our country is appreciated.

ooc

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 18:52
You're in Independence MO so I made a pretty solid guess based on good evidence you're a civilian. I was probably right too.
Yea, cause whiteman AFB is so far away right? But if you were right, would it make a bit of difference? Not really

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:57
b) We know a guy who claims to be in the services

I should probably scan a copy of my CAC card, my DD-1 and a memo from my commander that my paperwork so you'll be satisfied. I'm sure if I wanted to cosign on your opinion that the M9 is wunderpar you'd cosign on me being a five star. Issue a dissenting opinion, you're a 15 year old Army cook who plays World of Warcraft.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 18:59
Yea, cause whiteman AFB is so far away right? But if you were right, would it make a bit of difference? Not really

Unless you are a combat controller or MP you're not shooting a lot of 9mm ammo.

And yes, it would make a difference. If you were a civilian, I'd value your opinion on whatever your profession was. If you were in the AF as you're insinuating, I'd value your opinion on whatever you do there.
Neither however give you any insight on the M9 in Military Service past what you hear on the History Channel.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 19:07
Unless you are a combat controller or MP you're not shooting a lot of 9mm ammo.
Even the MP's dont shoot alot. I diddnt say what I do for a living. Its irrelevant.

If one was in a branch of the service and publicly claiming it though. Then you would be representing that branch of service, and should take appropriate action as to not make that branch look like a bunch of jerk offs. Just throwing that out there for ya.
Randomly calling people "little civies" reguardless of if thy are or not doesnt exactly make you seem profesional after your other claims. It kinda gives the impression that you quite literally just came home off the plane from GA. If infact your are at all in the service. Again though. One way or the other it is irrelevant

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 19:10
Thanks for talking the finer points of professionalism with me AF. My posts don't have my name, rank or US Army sewn to them though so I think we're good.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 19:13
I should probably scan a copy of my CAC card, my DD-1 and a memo from my commander that my paperwork so you'll be satisfied. I'm sure if I wanted to cosign on your opinion that the M9 is wunderpar you'd cosign on me being a five star. Issue a dissenting opinion, you're a 15 year old Army cook who plays World of Warcraft.
And I could scan you a copy of my dd 214. Again though its irrelevant. I dont care one bit who you are or what you do. Does not change the issue at hand even in the slightest. I never said anythig about you playing world of warcraft. I just assume by how you act on the internet, that you are a line cook... "I bet I'm right" Similar to how you did me? It's cute aint it? Reguardless of what either one of us thinks the other does... It's irrelevant.

Now that we have had our little pissing match, I beleive the real issue at hand was why does one think the Department of Defence chose a sidearm with a hammer? I beleive at the time the specs were written its what, whoever, knew worked. Maybe a seconed trigger pull is a bonus in some cases such as when you are at touching distance and would not have time to do a tap rack and pull. It is also known for the longest time military training is many years behind the curb. Though in recent years it seems they are catching up.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 19:16
Thanks for talking the finer points of professionalism with me AF. My posts don't have my name, rank or US Army sewn to them though so I think we're good.
I diddnt say I was AF. You assumed it. Like you assumed I was a "little civvy". And your posts shouldnt have to have any of that. If you are claiming it, and you have a screen name at all. If you have any integrity at all. Act the part

countrygun
05-26-2012, 19:18
Its uneducated because I should have said "But that one time way back when they did okay procuring the Garand and the 1911"?

Last I checked none of the guys involved in either process are still alive. Irrelevant.


I guess you didn't understand that YOUR use of the word "always" sort of implied..well....."Always".

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 19:24
I guess you didn't understand that YOUR use of the word "always" sort of implied..well....."Always".

hy·per·bo·le   [hahy-pur-buh-lee]
noun Rhetoric .
1.
obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.
an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

It is not my fault you read poorly.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 19:28
I diddnt say I was AF. You assumed it. Like you assumed I was a "little civvy". And your posts shouldnt have to have any of that. If you are claiming it, and you have a screen name at all. If you have any integrity at all. Act the part

Mighty (and nonsensical, if you have a screen name at all? lol) accusations.... I don't really care enough to reply to this comprehensively. If I have any integrity at all? Because I was mean to you on the internet? Grow up, people are rude to each other (you to me and me to you), especially on the internet. Ya'll must get your feelers hurt easy in not-infantry. Have a good day.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 19:37
Mighty (and nonsensical, if you have a screen name at all? lol) accusations.... I don't really care enough to reply to this comprehensively. If I have any integrity at all? Because I was mean to you on the internet? Grow up, people are rude to each other (you to me and me to you), especially on the internet. Ya'll must get your feelers hurt easy in not-infantry. Have a good day.
My feeling arnt hurt in the least. Seems I have won the argument. You cant begin to back up a claim you have made. You childlishly call people names, and make false accusations, and poke fun where it does not need to be. Both to me and most other members in this thread. I am aware people are rude to each other and I'm fine with that. As far as that little peice you quoted, get all of it next time. If you have a screen name and are makng a claim you are in a branch. Act the part. Then again you also have no integrity. This however, again. Is all irrelevant.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 19:40
.

So yes, second strike is nonsense.



...or not

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 19:46
My feeling arnt hurt in the least. Seems I have won the argument. You cant begin to back up a claim you have made.
With what, a sworn statement by every single person in the Army that the M9 has a short service life? Apparently statistical evidence from Beretta itself isn't good enough for you. Based on your own standard of winning an argument by "backing it up" (presumably with evidence, although mine from the manufacturer wasn't good enough lolz), what have you done? You've provided nothing but hearsay.
You childlishly call people names, and make false accusations, and poke fun where it does not need to be.
Actually we both did
Then again you also have no integrity.
Haha, because I was mean to you on the interwebs where as you said I could be anyone and my uniform/name/rank are not on display? The reputation of the US Army has suffered another blow due to this guy on Glocktalk? Rofls. What are they feeding you airmen these days?

Good times. I need to get a beer. Cool story bro.

countrygun
05-26-2012, 19:48
hy·per·bo·le   [hahy-pur-buh-lee]
noun Rhetoric .
1.
obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.
an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”

It is not my fault you read poorly.


I would suggest you stay away from what you think is clever hyperbole. The way you communicate it isn't obvious when you are deliberately saying things that don't make sense.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 19:50
I would suggest you stay away from what you think is clever hyperbole. The way you communicate it isn't obvious when you are deliberately saying things that don't make sense.
There was nothing cleverly obscure about it. It was very standard hyperbole and a very standard misunderstanding by you. You must be a very difficult man to communicate in real life with everyone being mindful to express their thoughts in a completely literal manner.

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 20:01
Good times. I need to get a beer. Cool story bro.
You gave no evidence what so ever. You showed where on berettas web page they stated the testing stopped. Not frame failures. Simply they saw no more reason to continue the testing. You diddn show squat.

I diddnt say I was perfect myself. Nor have I claimed to be anything or anyone of any signifigance. I have no clue what they feed airmen these days. Not sure why you continue to think I am or ever was AF. Those silly assumptions and accusation at work again? Either way, not sure why you continue to worry about what I do, or did for a living... It is, and always will be (as far as this thread goes) Irrelevant

I have provided my own experience, and anothers experience that is greater than mine. You havnt even given a personal experience on the subject at all. Might be that integrity thing? The only thing you did was bring up a meaningless webpage, that said othing about frame failures.

Again as I stated before you being rude on the internet, doesnt effect me one bit. You simly lack integrity. And acting like a child on the internet while claiming to be in the services only helps to support my claim that you lack integrity. And yes it does make the army look bad. Not saying they are all like you, but it gets the ball rolling with that mindset. So show some respect for yourself and all of armed services, and act like a big boy. Are you ready to get back on topic? Or would you like to continue pissng in the wind?

TalkToTheGlock
05-26-2012, 20:11
The call of duty forums are invading Glocktalk. Nooooo!


BY the way FnFal. You're ATM commen made me laugh real good. Lol

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 20:19
Mighty9mm, bravo to you. I see it is effortlessness to craft an argument and slander another person when you throw around words relating to concepts you dont understand while giving your own evidence the highest level of credibility. Because you say so it is true.

Also, big boys are rude all the time as you are being now. Not quite as passive aggressively as you though. That is left for children and cowards.

I am hard pressed to think of anything that would have less impact on my professional integrity than reciprocating your poor treatment of me here. If you spoke to me like that in a bar my CO would think I was remiss to not chew you out or hit you. Clear? Thanks bye.

G31
05-26-2012, 20:25
Even the second pull on the same chamber state is a waste of time. Cycling the weapon has a much higher probability of fixing whatever the issue was.

Got back from the range today with my SIG P229. One single round of 357 did not fire on the first strike, so I hit it again and it went off. Not such a waste of time if it works. That said, I've had some that were just dead, so...

themighty9mm
05-26-2012, 20:29
Mighty9mm, bravo to you. I see it is effortlessness to craft an argument and slander another person when you throw around words relating to concepts you dont understand while giving your own evidence the highest level of credibility. Because you say so it is true.

Also, big boys are rude all the time as you are being now. Not quite as passive aggressively as you though. That is left for children and cowards.

I am hard pressed to think of anything that would have less impact on my professional integrity than reciprocating your poor treatment of me here. If you spoke to me like that in a bar my CO would think I was remiss to not chew you out or hit you. Clear? Thanks bye.

Slander? Not hardly. What dont I understand? And yes I will take my own real life experience over the guy who has shown he has no integrity on the internet. Once again I am aware people are rude. You continue to bring it up as though its a new thought. So are you the child or the coward?
Now you are making threats to a guy over the internet? Cute. My poor treatment of you? What about your poor treatment of everyone on this thread? You talk a big talk but cant back a single thing up. You talk down to everyone who has anything to say that does not coincide with your thoughts. And now you are apparently trying to play the part of the victim? As though I attacked you? Not so much, good sir.

WoodenPlank
05-26-2012, 20:32
Once again, a GT thread turns into a pissing match. Great.

arclight610
05-26-2012, 20:41
Got back from the range today with my SIG P229. One single round of 357 did not fire on the first strike, so I hit it again and it went off. Not such a waste of time if it works. That said, I've had some that were just dead, so...

I get it sometimes with revolvers. I'll get a dud, but I'll go around the cylinder and strike it again and it will go off.

Sheepdog Scout
05-26-2012, 20:41
Once again, a GT thread turns into a pissing match. Great.

Cmon man. I said that back in post #115.:tongueout:






:supergrin:

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 21:22
Slander? Not hardly. What dont I understand? And yes I will take my own real life experience over the guy who has shown he has no integrity on the internet.
You've thrown this word around a ton without demonstrating you understand the concept of personal integrity or why I don't have it. Good work, like a politician. You're dumb enough to be one.

Once again I am aware people are rude. You continue to bring it up as though its a new thought. So are you the child or the coward?
Being rude in passive aggressive manner is what I said children and cowards do, you are very challenged at reading apparently.

Now you are making threats to a guy over the internet?
If you thought that was a threat you're dumber than I supposed.

I'd recommend you private message me if you are really that interested in repeating the same nonsensical sentiments over and over.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 21:58
Once again, a GT thread turns into a pissing match. Great.


it happenes.....

I went out to the BLM with some friends and shot a few handguns that I would happily take into combat before any 'striker fired' pistol. The better 1/2 is working a shift in the ER so I came back to GT and see that the 'usual' has come to pass!

TalkToTheGlock
05-26-2012, 21:59
I'd recommend you private message me if you are really that interested in repeating the same nonsensical sentiments over and over.

Can't we all just chill. Life is good. This weekend is about celebrating Veterans and servicemen men and women, not about bs.

I don't care what platoon or unit anyone is from. I am grateful that you guys have balls enough to stand up for my rights and fight the fight.

Thanks to all who are serving or who have served. I love you all.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 22:05
it happenes.....

I went out to the BLM with some friends and shot a few handguns that I would happily take into combat before any 'striker fired' pistol. The better 1/2 is working a shift in the ER so I came back to GT and see that the 'usual' has come to pass!

A bunch of killers more professional than you, me and the rest of the armed professional community combined ditched one of the guns in your picture in favor of Glock less than a decade ago.

If you think you know better than them, good for you.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 22:09
If you think you know better than them, good for you.



very good for me, thanks!

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 22:12
very good for me, thanks!

I'm glad you think you're better than CAG. Stay classy Guard.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 22:18
Glocks are for kids and cops.



....guard??

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 22:25
Glocks are for kids and cops.
....guard??
I'd put money on you being in the Oregon National Guard or a GS for them. You're standing in front of a Chinook and I know the Army Guard has them there.

Either way, your credentials have nothing on 1SFOD. If you think your experience as a mechanic gives you a better insight into combat, killing people and small arms than the Army's representatives at JSOC then... wow.

Words can't describe the lack of humility and wrong going on there.

maxmanta
05-26-2012, 22:27
Hammer fired guns whack the primer harder than striker-fired guns (IOW, more reliable ignition). Military primers tend to be harder than "civilian" primers. At least they used to be.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 22:34
I'd put money on you being in the Oregon National Guard or a GS for them.



You should not bet as that is a photo of me at Simmons AAF circa 1985. Google it, I''ll wait.


But do continue ass-u-ming! (....why stop now??)

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 22:44
You should not bet as that is a photo of me at Simmons AAF circa 1985. Google it, I''ll wait.
But do continue ass-u-ming! (....why stop now??)

So instead of being a current mechanic in the Oregon Guard, you're some ex-active mechanic from back when the Army was only semi-pro.

Looks like assuming actually worked out pretty well for me. A has-been soldier (with no combat training) instead of a wanna-be soldier (with no combat training).

(Actually, I forgot a NG unit at least used to drill out there, so you may just be an ex-wannabe)

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 22:46
I was 'in combat' when you were learning how to use diapers.



........but we were not as 'professional' then!

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 22:55
I was 'in combat' when you were learning how to use diapers.

I didn't realize we were engaged in many wars in 1981.

The next thing I know you will claim that you're ex Delta and you got left behind during Operation Eagle Claw and you spent the next five years in a game of cat and mouse with the Ayatollah so you were in fact in combat in 1981.

Claim whatever you'd like, I can't prove or disprove it. Maybe you're a Vietnam veteran which would make me feel like an ass, most likely not though.

Also, ask anyone who's been around long enough to comment on how the Army has changed since the 80s, a one or two star will usually suffice. They'll tell you it is a night and day difference.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 23:00
I didn't realize we were engaged in many wars in 1981.





You 'don't realize' lots of things it seems. You are a Glock fanboi, have fun.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 23:03
You 'don't realize' lots of things it seems. You are a Glock fanboi, have fun.
Oh. Then what war were we fighting in 1981? Where did you see combat, what MOS, with what battalion in 1981? I didn't realize helo mechanics saw a lot dangerous action... in 1981.

I sincerely hope you were on an ODA or something, otherwise you're just a liar of the worst sort. Done here.

Also, if I'm a Glock Fanboi, I'm in good company (JSOC). I think the only big military fans of the 1911 that are left are MARSOC... the guys who got sent home from their first deployment in 07 for dusting too many innocents.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 23:11
I was in High School in 1981.

....keep ass-uming

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 23:17
I was in High School in 1981.

....keep ass-uming

I didn't assume anything. You told me you were in combat when I was in diapers. In 1981. I inform you there was no war in 1981. You tell me I don't know a lot of things.

So what war was on in 1981?

What war did you make contact with the enemy in?

Oh, none. You are a liar. I love the internet. Some ne'er do well enlisted helo mechanic of two decades ago can insinuate to have made contact with the enemy in an unknown 80s war and tout their superiority to contemporary professionals in the Army's premier unit CAG.

I'll not let the door hit my ass on the way out of this discussion. All I can say is don't make such a stupid and obviously false boast at a bar in Fayetteville.

LawScholar
05-26-2012, 23:21
So instead of being a current mechanic in the Oregon Guard, you're some ex-active mechanic from back when the Army was only semi-pro.

Looks like assuming actually worked out pretty well for me. A has-been soldier (with no combat training) instead of a wanna-be soldier (with no combat training).

(Actually, I forgot a NG unit at least used to drill out there, so you may just be an ex-wannabe)

As someone who hasn't posted in this thread once and just read the whole thing, because I'm bored and have no life, you should know you're coming off as a [self-deleted to avoid infraction].

A very close friend of mine served for four tours as a Marine, two as a sniper after attending Marine sniper school. He is an excellent shot and a stand-up human being.

Even after four combat tours using firearms to kill, he knows very little about them. I need to correct him here and there all the time. He didn't know his Springfield XD wasn't made in the U.S., or the difference between DI and piston ARs.

Know what he does when I correct him, despite being a pasty academic who is just really into guns?

He doesn't call me a civvie.

He doesn't mock me.

He doesn't tell me what a hardcore infantryman he is (despite being very much so).

He thanks me. And we go on being pals.

Your elitism pours off of what you write, S-3. This civvie is not impressed. Have facts? Present them as you will. You shouldn't be called a 15-year-old WoW player for having a dissenting opinion, you're 100% right about that. But you're not better than anyone else, and you don't automatically know more about combat firearms because you use them for a living. Sorry to break it to you, but there are rotten civvies who could - and have, here - run you through the ringer on firearms knowledge.

Keep your opinion, but try to lose some of the 'tude.

Feel free to insult or dismiss me, now, if you will. I won't be back to play.

FLIPPER 348
05-26-2012, 23:21
There have not been any real wars since 1945. We were quite busy on the Choluteca River back in the mid 80s (Google, I'll wait ....again)

Son, I was only in the Army for 7 years but I have had plenty of fun since then. btw- You will be happy to know that my firearm of choice for 'fun' is a Glock 30

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 23:30
There have not been any real wars since 1945.
I forgot that when we don't declare a war it makes our fallen less dead.
We were quite busy on the Choluteca River back in the mid 80s (Google, I'll wait ....again)

You did an oversea deployment in Honduras.... that's your "combat when I was in diapers"?

That was a field trip. I've read about it. No shots fired. Especially not inside the wire. Good job telling the legend on that one, though.

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 23:32
I was with Delta Force in 1980 when we stormed Prince's Gate. My Hi-Power's hammer didn't fire at the first drop, so I simply DA pulled it again. It fired and I smoked the terr (we didn't call'em tangos back then.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 23:42
I was with Delta Force in 1980 when we stormed Prince's Gate. My Hi-Power's hammer didn't fire at the first drop, so I simply DA pulled it again. It fired and I smoked the terr (we didn't call'em tangos back then.

I'll cosign on this expert witness testimony.

fnfalman
05-26-2012, 23:45
I'll cosign on this expert witness testimony.

It shows how little you know. Me and Charlie Beckwith were like this. We taught the Brits a thing or two.

Check my Gat
05-26-2012, 23:51
It shows how little you know

I'll assign merit to it based on your expert recommendation, but the experts that succeeded you are using weapons with no second strike capability and rely on tap/rack/bang. In other words, they've discarded no bang/pull again.

I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but I don't know nothing either. Obviously, that method worked for you guys, but it has evolved into something else now.

Andrewsky
05-27-2012, 00:20
Is there any proof that Delta uses all Glocks now?

It doesn't really matter who uses what. Just because Delta uses a pistol doesn't mean the matter is decided.

Let's have a technical discussion...7 pages and hardly anyone has talked about whether the technical differences between hammer and striker-fired pistols.

Sheepdog Scout
05-27-2012, 01:48
So to sum up: There's one fellow in this thread that knows everything and insults everyone. Whether they are lowly civies. Or his former or current brothers in arms. Air Force and National Guard suck for lack of a better term and he's the greatest, toughest, most hard charging S-3 the infantry has ever seen.

Also, fnfalman is punking you. Unless he was 13 (going by his profile info) when he was chargin' the Prince's gate with Col. Beckwith in 1980.

This thread is kinda sad.

Oso
05-27-2012, 02:30
I would look at whoever actually uses a handgun more often in combat/defensive situation. Law enforcement or military. My guess would be law enforcement. Most soldiers, marines, airmen, etc. never even handle a handgun, let alone carry one.

Now, if we were talking service rifles, the military would get my vote.

I wonder how much real world data the military has regarding handgun usage. Trials are kind of like gelatin ballistic tests. They are decent guides, but until you have real world data, you are just speculating.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 03:25
I'd recommend you private message me if you are really that interested in repeating the same nonsensical sentiments over and over.
Integrity, meaning your kinda a liar and not so much of a stand up guy. But you already knew that. Its kind of a big deal in your job. You cant back anything you say up, with written facts or even personal experience so instead you turn to insults, threats, and assumptions. You speak of my reading comprehension after your own "facts" you yourself could not comprehend. But I'm the idiot? lol

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 05:16
Also, fnfalman is punking you. Unless he was 13 (going by his profile info) when he was chargin' the Prince's gate with Col. Beckwith in 1980.

No, really, the guy who has enough spare time for 40,000 posts and the scooter as a profile picture?

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 05:22
Integrity, meaning your kinda a liar
About what, prove it?
You cant back anything you say up, with written facts or even personal experience
Actually that is practically all I talked about when I initially dogged the M9. Every unit I've been to has had undue issues with the M9s. I've never seen a major operating component on a weapon crack but an M9s frame. Regardless, if you are willfully lying about not seeing it or ignorant of that, you're not worth having a conversation with

As far as turning to personal insults go, you went there all post every post, throwing around the word integrity as if I'm ****ting on my commission because I reciprocated rude comments back towards you.

Integrity isn't "don't be a dick on an internet forum because people there know you may be in the military". Get over it. Obviously, your feelers are hurt. I'm sorry you're that delicate.



I wonder how much real world data the military has regarding handgun usage. Trials are kind of like gelatin ballistic tests. They are decent guides, but until you have real world data, you are just speculating.

Practically no useful data is gathered on small arms use in actual combat as far as I can tell, except post deployment surveys which surprisingly usually yield useful information on soldier's experiences with their small arms.

KennyFSU
05-27-2012, 05:23
Attacking the arguer and not the argument is a logical fallacy. You have just lost all creditability.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 05:31
he's the greatest, toughest, most hard charging S-3 the infantry has ever seen.

Go ahead and find where I said or insinuated anything of the sort.
(I noticed afterwards that you have a Beretta in your profile picture, I guess that's why I'm such a dick. If I had been one of these other guys, insulting me, I'd have been fine because it was in support of the M9. Go figure).

So to sum up: There's one fellow in this thread that knows everything and insults everyone.... Or his former or current brothers in arms.

You mean the one who insinuated he had seen serious combat in a non-existent war in 1981, then backpedaled and admitted it was just Honduras which is really nothing more than a hardship tour. Performing some unnamed task, most likely behind the wire. In other words, the guy lying about being a big time trigger puller in wars I haven't even heard of.


Anyways, on the other hand, do I think it makes my opinion on M9s in military service more valuable than most others? Yes.

Would I tell an E-8 RA Army Vet from Vietnam his business about the original M16 he had been issued because I have a replica and I think its the greatest? No, I would sit down and shut up because I know he has the experience that I don't.

arclight610
05-27-2012, 09:08
No, really, the guy who has enough spare time for 40,000 posts and the scooter as a profile picture?

I forget again. Maybe you mentioned it prior, but I missed it. What exactly are your military credentials again?

Restless28
05-27-2012, 09:17
Looks like the new guy has managed to alienate a good percentage of vets here in one thread. Not a good start to a GT career.

FLIPPER 348
05-27-2012, 09:22
he is cute when all butthurt

fnfalman
05-27-2012, 09:25
No, really, the guy who has enough spare time for 40,000 posts and the scooter as a profile picture?

Better than some S3 REMF pencil pusher.

arclight610
05-27-2012, 09:30
Better than some S3 REMF pencil pusher.

Wait. So this guy is S3, and he's trying to act all hardcore? That's priceless.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a193/Teamcompound/Untitled.jpg

fnfalman
05-27-2012, 09:36
Wait. So this guy is S3, and he's trying to act all hardcore? That's priceless.


How dare these little whippersnapper officers in their 30s have more experience in the contemporary operational environment than me.


The dude probably went on one patrol so that he can get his CIB/CAB for his OER. Hell, I'll bet that he even got a Bronze Medal with V Device too.

Andrewsky
05-27-2012, 10:19
Things DID get pretty serious in Central America in the 80s. We helped the Contras set Nicaragua alight. So I wouldn't assume there was no experience to be had there.

FLIPPER 348
05-27-2012, 10:39
It was mostly door gunning but the environment of the zone was my point. Getting lost or a deep E&E situation might bring about the worst case scenario ammo & equipment wise. A 2nd strike pistol would be a good thing. We were still issued revolvers at the time.

Andrewsky
05-27-2012, 10:53
There's a guy on M1911forum that shot two VC in Vietnam with his M1911 after his M16 malfunctioned. He really likes M1911's, as you might guess.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 11:17
As far as turning to personal insults go, you went there all post every post, throwing around the word integrity as if I'm ****ting on my commission because I reciprocated rude comments back towards you.

Integrity isn't "don't be a dick on an internet forum because people there know you may be in the military". Get over it. Obviously, your feelers are hurt. I'm sorry you're that delicate.


Everything you said has been a lie, you have not brought one bit of truth to any part of this. All you fact have either been and assumptin or some guy you knows experience. If those are you facts. Than my very own personal experience has way more credibility, than "I saw a guy 9 lanes down have some sort of issue". Also it only reinforces Ben stogers experince. I can still provide you to a link if you would like?

As far as the insults go, lets not forget who started this. Theres that intergrity thing again.
I'm not going to take a insult without dishing one back. Blow for blow, word for word. I can keep up with the youngest of em kiddo.

You are the only one here to continues to think intergrity has anything about being rude. So I will go ahead and do you similar to how you did countrygun. Since you apparently have no clue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 11:31
It was mostly door gunning but the environment of the zone was my point. Getting lost or a deep E&E situation might bring about the worst case scenario ammo & equipment wise. A 2nd strike pistol would be a good thing. We were still issued revolvers at the time.

I qualified with the 38,.......loved shooting it!

There sure is a lot of smack talking from a rookie in this one.
He must br from ARFcom

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 13:22
The dude probably went on one patrol so that he can get his CIB/CAB for his OER. Hell, I'll bet that he even got a Bronze Medal with V Device too.

This post is moderately retarded. You must not know a lot about the military. Do you think they kick battalion staff out of a factory at your current rank? I was a platoon leader twice and a company commander. I've made contact and every deployment I've been on (4 and a half-one as an adviser). That reminds me, what have you done?

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 13:31
Everything you said has been a lie Really, what did I lie abuout it? Prove it
you have not brought one bit of truth to any part of this. All you fact have either been and assumptin or some guy you knows experience.
Irony. This is actually an assumption. Find where I said anything of the sort. I never even went into the specifics for you to judge who had the experience. Ever broken a locking block in Sadr City? No, okay, I have.

You keep saying the same things over and over again. I keep pointing out that I either didn't say those things or that you're creating a new truth. You ignore it and make a nearly identical post after. It is kind of hard to argue with someone retarded. (As demonstrated by the awful grammar)

By the way, congratulations on linking me to integrity, I don't see not being rude on there. That was my point. It is not inconsistent with my values to be a dick when someone was a dick to me. As a side note, I reciprocated your insults, you might want to scroll back a few.

Roger G23
05-27-2012, 13:39
Well, i just got my brand new 92FS. Seems like it's gonna be a sweet shooter. All my other handguns are striker fired except the incredible CZ 75 SP-01 Shadow.

arclight610
05-27-2012, 14:05
This post is moderately retarded. You must not know a lot about the military. Do you think they kick battalion staff out of a factory at your current rank? I was a platoon leader twice and a company commander. I've made contact and every deployment I've been on (4 and a half-one as an adviser). That reminds me, what have you done?

I don't believe this at all.

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:09
I don't believe this at all.
Go ahead and don't believe it, that's your prerogative, but don't assume something stupid like field grade officers have never made contact or had a job that sent them outside the wire. Today's junior field grades were company grades a decade ago and there was a war on.

I'm done here as it became clear a few pages ago no discussion of firearms is likely to be had, but insinuating people holding the ranks of captain/major/Lt Col in the infantry today aren't combat veterans? Well, I will let you go to a battalion training meeting and let you see how that one plays. Have a good day.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 14:12
You keep saying the same things over and over again. I keep pointing out that I either didn't say those things or that you're creating a new truth. You ignore it and make a nearly identical post after. It is kind of hard to argue with someone retarded. (As demonstrated by the awful grammar)

By the way, congratulations on linking me to integrity, I don't see not being rude on there. That was my point. It is not inconsistent with my values to be a dick when someone was a dick to me. As a side note, I reciprocated your insults, you might want to scroll back a few.

I keep repeating myself as you yourself lack any and all reading comprehension. Just more insults, thats all you have. You have nothing. You couldnt even understand your own written facts from berettas wed site. Go ahead and read back. You are a liar. Plain and simple. You have no integrity. You have nothing of relevance. And continue to repeat that I am somehow hurt that you are retarded. You make false assumptions of my background and others. The only thing you had of any relavence even in the most vuage form. Is one time you watched a guy who could not shoot to save his life. So go ahead and scroll back. Stop, trying to play the victim card, stop assuming and making things up. I bet you are a fine cook or pencil pusher or whatever you claim to be. But this is not your strong suite. So put the spatula, or pen, or designer outfits or whatever it is you claim to do down (its all irrelevant but you seemed pretty worried about it earlier). Then maybe try getting some range time, so you will have your own experience.

And you claim to have broken a locking block. Big deal. Yes parts will have to be replaced. You said so like its some sort of shocking new. I then explained o you how anything mechanical or made by man can and will break. Then I went on to inform you, that you have a armorer. You could say very similar about absolutly every single gun ever made, ever.

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:18
I keep repeating myself as you yourself lack any and all reading comprehension Just more insults,I would look at the body of this post if you are interested in a lack of substance and an abundance of insults thats all you have. You have nothing. Go ahead and read back. You are a liar. Plain and simple.I've invited you to prove it. About what? As if I'm the only person on the planet who's broken an M9 locking block so I must be lying? You have no integrity. You have nothing of relevance. And continue to repeat that I am somehow hurt that you are retarded. You make false assumptions of my background and others. Actually, they were pretty accurate, especially in regards to the guy who saw serious combat when I was in diapers/then it was just Honduras/then he admits he never made contact (which is fine, you can serve your country without doing so, but the insinuation was something wholly different). You are not interested in owning up to your background, which is fine, but it seems I hit the nail pretty close to the head. The only thing you had of any relavence even in the most vuage form. Not true. Provided specific examples even. You're just not acknowledging it
Good day "sir".

arclight610
05-27-2012, 14:21
Go ahead and don't believe it, that's your prerogative, but don't assume something stupid like field grade officers have never made contact or had a job that sent them outside the wire. Today's junior field grades were company grades a decade ago and there was a war on.

I'm done here as it became clear a few pages ago no discussion of firearms is likely to be had, but insinuating people holding the ranks of captain/major/Lt Col in the infantry today aren't combat veterans? Well, I will let you go to a battalion training meeting and let you see how that one plays. Have a good day.

I don't believe you are a field grade officer or a combat vet. If you are, then you are a piss poor excuse for one by the action of your previous replies.

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:21
You could say very similar about absolutly every single gun ever made, ever.
As a blanket statement, yes. I've seen catastrophic parts failures in all kinds of weapons. I couldn't say the same about firearms that had just visited a 91F and had all their major internal components replaced however.


I don't believe you are a field grade officer or a combat vet. If you are, then you are a piss poor excuse for one by the action of your previous replies.
Good for you, you're entitled to that opinion. I'm fine with that, that's your opinion. When people want to lie about why I said, literally on this forum, that's what I'm not okay with.

Novocaine
05-27-2012, 14:22
1. These threads are always messy, “striker-fired” became synonymous with “SAO striker-fired ala Glock”. Probably because most of the modern striker fired guns are built in Glock image. It’s not the same thing, there are double action striker fired guns and there are hammer-fired guns that are not repeat strike capable. How can we discuss things when terms are ill-defined?

US military obviously doesn’t have problem with strikers but wants repeat strike capability. I happen to agree but to each his own. In a grand scheme of things it’s non-issue. U.S military is more concerned with sleeping bags than with pistols, as it should. My gf just got issued new Kevlar and some other pieces of gear and it’s awesome. Kevlar alone probably costs more than two or three Berettas and this is precisely how I’d want the money spent.

2. I really don’t understand all this dick waiving. Since when did serving in the military makes one an expert on handguns?

3. P7M13 didn’t win the trials. But I will take it over Beretta any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

4. Anyone using words “little civvy” needs to reassess his role and place in this Universe.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 14:26
Good day "sir".
Still playing the victim card? Cute. You started of my first post in this thread by insulting me. Take you own advice and read back. All I have to do to prove it is tell, give you the same advice you did me... read back a few pages.

According to your "first hand experience" the guy was all over a target from a rest. Now they are pretty accurate. Which one is it? If you are going to lie, at least stick with your lie.

You havnt provided one specific example. While I have only provided my own first hand experiencem and the word of another whom has shown time and time again to have integrity.
You have only provided your own misread from berettas website. Oh, and you saw a guy who cant shoot well

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 14:28
Goon posting Novovaine,.....FAIL is strong in this thread!

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 14:31
Good for you, you're entitled to that opinion. I'm fine with that, that's your opinion. When people want to lie about why I said, literally on this forum, that's what I'm not okay with.
If one guy calls you a donkey brush it off, if everyone does, buy a saddle...

Or in this case if one guy calls you out, ignore it. If they all do, shut up and try to learn.

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:31
According to your "first hand experience" the guy was all over a target from a rest. Now they are pretty accurate. Which one is it? If you are going to lie, at least stick with your lie.
This is a major fail. I said my assumptions about you and your friend were pretty accurate.
You havnt provided one specific example. While I have only provided my own first hand experiencem and the word of another whom has shown time and time again to have integrity.
Keep saying this, eventually others will believe it is true.
You have only provided your own misread from berettas website. Oh, and you saw a guy who cant shoot wellNo, it was being fired from a good solid rest. All over the paper.
And no, I didn't misread it. The expected life of the weapon for the slide and frame as has been quoted to me by the armorers is 40k. 5k more than Beretta's website.

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 14:42
Dude,........get the **** back to pushing papers & get off the computer!

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 14:44
And no, I didn't misread it. The expected life of the weapon for the slide and frame as has been quoted to me by the armorers is 40k. 5k more than Beretta's website.
Berettas website said only that the test stopped after 35K. You did misread it... Sad, I know.

You said the m9 was all over the place from a rest, now you say they are accurate. How is that a fail on my part? A few posts agao they are all over, now they are accurate again. Pick one and go with it.

It will remain true weather or not anyone says it. I will continue to remind you though if it helps.

Just remember you are in a safe place now, and we are here for you... If you try and can get over you little integrity problem... You just have to really want it.

Wernt you leaving?

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:50
You said the m9 was all over the place from a rest, now you say they are accurate. How is that a fail on my part? A few posts agao they are all over, now they are accurate again. Pick one and go with it.


The exact body of the post you're describing. My reply is in bold

"You make false assumptions of my background and others. Actually, they were pretty accurate."

I wasn't discussing the M9. That would be clear if you had your head screwed on. You've been making things up like that this whole thread.

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 14:51
'9mm...........if ya quit feeding a troll, he WILL leave on his own!

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:52
'9mm...........if ya quit feeding a troll, he WILL leave on his own!
I'm glad you didn't bother to actually read anything here.

arclight610
05-27-2012, 14:53
'9mm...........if ya quit feeding a troll, he WILL leave on his own!

Sometimes feeding the troll is more fun.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 14:56
Stands up to high volume use very poorly. I've seen M9s that are all over a human silhouette, fired from a rest, because they've got a pretty unimpressive but high for the type round count. This is unacceptable in a military issue pistol with the amount of rounds we fire in pre-deployment training.
So you were not discussing the M9 right here, and how the shoter was all over the place? Hmmm sure seemed like it, strange

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 14:58
So you were not discussing the M9 right here, and how the shoter was all over the place? Hmmm sure seemed like it, strange
Notice the word "rest" in there. Like the full on vice style one.

Now, go find where I said it was accurate too. Go. Run along. You know, prove it.

We both know you can't. Either your reading comprehension is that poor or you're a willful liar, I can't decide. I'll remember in the future that insinuating people who stay on the FOB know less than infantry about small arms in combat (this would seem like a no brainer) will have an irrational consensus opinion formed against you, because most people on the internet are probably in the former group.

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:00
I'm glad you didn't bother to actually read anything here.

I feel sorry for ya,.........go get a sammich elsewhere!

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 15:04
I feel sorry for ya,.........go get a sammich elsewhere!
Not as sorry as I feel for people who likely don't have the balls to be a dick anywhere but the internet.

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:09
Now that's funny!
You have no flipping clue rookie!

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 15:10
Now that's funny!
You have no flipping clue rookie!
I'm sure you're offline you're a torn up badass who don't take nobody's guff.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 15:11
'9mm...........if ya quit feeding a troll, he WILL leave on his own!
I, I just can't help myself. Its a disease I tell you lol. I will stop now though. Its gotten to the point where he is PM'ing me, while posting. lol He really wants the attention. Its cute. But I'm done. I'll sit back and watch this to continue to unfold. Kinda suprised it hasnt been blocked yet.

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 15:14
point where he is PM'ing me
You can be ruder in a PM. And who angrily PM'd me right back? Coincidentally, I think you may have finally realized that that-thing-you-thought-I said, I didn't actually say. Such is the nature of arguing on the the internet.

"Welp, looks like I was wrong about the words I was trying to cram down that guys throat. Time to bail."

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:17
I, I just can't help myself. Its a disease I tell you lol. I will stop now though. Its gotten to the point where he is PM'ing me, while posting. lol He really wants the attention. Its cute. But I'm done. I'll sit back and watch this to continue to unfold. Kinda suprised it hasnt been blocked yet.


Yep,..........he's pm'ing you?! He must really LOVE you! :rofl:
Be careful, he may just ask you out next.

Sheepdog Scout
05-27-2012, 15:19
Yep,..........he's pm'ing you?! He must really LOVE you! :rofl:
Be careful, he may just ask you out next.

Is this before or after the meating?

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 15:20
You can be ruder in a PM. And who angrily PM'd me right back? Coincidentally, I think you may have finally realized that that-thing-you-thought-I said, I didn't actually say. Such is the nature of arguing on the the internet.

"Welp, looks like I was wrong about the words I was trying to cram down that guys throat. Time to bail."
Tried to get out but you just really enjoy my dont ya. Kinda hard to be angry, when one is laughing. What kinda pencil do you use at work? I need to get some new ones

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 15:21
Yep,..........he's pm'ing you?! He must really LOVE you! :rofl:
Be careful, he may just ask you out next.
Seems he does have a thing for me

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:22
Complete message
I decided this would be better as a private message after I posted it.

Not as sorry as I feel for people who likely don't have the balls to be a dick anywhere but the internet - because they are fat old men who never did anything particularly hardcore in the military. Have a good day!


Awe crap,..........he LOVES me too! :faint:

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:24
Seems he does have a thing for me


He thinks you are more "hardcore" than me,......I'm old & fat! :rofl:

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 15:24
Awe crap,..........he LOVES me too! :faint:
Just remember keep clenched, and dont let him get behind you. I saw this movie once, It diddnt go well.

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 15:25
nevermind... lol

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:26
?.....What kinda pencil do you use at work? I need to get some new ones

Prolly has a flower on the end,........or it's pink.:whistling:

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:27
Just remember keep clenched, and dont let him get behind you. I saw this movie once, It diddnt go well.

Wow,.....you watched Brokeback Mountain?! :wow:

Check my Gat
05-27-2012, 15:29
I see a lot of thinly veiled butthurt.

Also, 9mm, I've never run into anyone more limited in reading comprehension than you. If I said it was raining cats and dogs, you'd think it was raining cats and dogs.

raven11
05-27-2012, 15:32
So about those hammer fired sidearms...

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:34
I see a lot of thinly veiled butthurt.


You don't have enough time on this earth to have gained the
experience to make me butthurt!

Also, keep in mind, private messages are NOT private. Mods &
admin can bust your balls over pm's as well. Justbavtip for your
rookie *** from an old "non-hardcore military old fat man". :whistling:

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 15:36
So about those hammer fired sidearms...

Yep,........1911 is King, Browning Hi Power is a close second,
with the Beretta in a close third. Ymmv.

countrygun
05-27-2012, 15:52
Yep,........1911 is King, Browning Hi Power is a close second,
with the Beretta in a close third. Ymmv.


Got to give a shout out to the CZ. That smooth trigger pull really gives the firing pin a good smack on the second strike.:whistling:

faawrenchbndr
05-27-2012, 16:04
Still need to try CZ, a local range has some as rentals.......

themighty9mm
05-27-2012, 16:58
Wow,.....you watched Brokeback Mountain?! :wow:
LMAO, no, deliverance.

fnfalman
05-27-2012, 17:15
This post is moderately retarded. You must not know a lot about the military. Do you think they kick battalion staff out of a factory at your current rank? I was a platoon leader twice and a company commander. I've made contact and every deployment I've been on (4 and a half-one as an adviser). That reminds me, what have you done?

Ain't that special? What do you want? A Medal of Honor?

What have I done? I jumped into Panama while you were in grade school. Got any star on your jump wing?

BTW, how many pistol rounds have you fired in combat that had worn out an M9 pistol?

Restless28
05-27-2012, 19:22
Still need to try CZ, a local range has some as rentals.......

I bought a CZ75BD. It should be here next week. I'm looking forward to it!

Sheepdog Scout
05-27-2012, 21:38
I bought a CZ75BD. It should be here next week. I'm looking forward to it!

You bought it. To that I say::supergrin: and :perfect10:and :dancingbanana::wave:
Don't forget pics and extra mags!

NIB
05-28-2012, 01:24
I'll take a tap rap bang over praying a second strike works anyday.

:whistling:

Awww hell, last time I was in they were still teaching that damn tea cup hold. Tap, Rack, and Bang was something we did at the Nudie places outside of Bragg.

NIB
05-28-2012, 01:53
Right now I'm the S-3 at an Infantry battalion. Not exactly as qualified as retirees from not-infantry and civilians to comment if I have a dissenting opinion though, apparently.

Big F'N deal, so you sit on your *** all day and make coffee for everyone!!!!

mixflip
05-28-2012, 02:13
In a combat situation it is far from nonsense

I carry a DA/SA weapon and in the last class I took (over 1000 rounds shot ) ...every time I had a malfunction I did a tap, rack, re-assess. Not a second trigger pull. Never. If it didnt go bang the first time...it gets replaced with a fresh round.

Second striking was never taught to me in the military or in the police academy or anywhere that I can think of in my 20 years pulling triggers???

The second strike is nonsense to me personally.

faawrenchbndr
05-28-2012, 04:48
Big F'N deal, so you sit on your *** all day and make coffee for everyone!!!!

Be careful! He's experienced! I'll bet he even has a Purple Heart........for a papercut! :rofl:

KennyFSU
05-28-2012, 05:14
Hey now, paper cuts are serious business; especially after some hand sanitizer!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shadyscott69
05-28-2012, 05:55
I was with Delta Force in 1980 when we stormed Prince's Gate. My Hi-Power's hammer didn't fire at the first drop, so I simply DA pulled it again. It fired and I smoked the terr (we didn't call'em tangos back then.


:rofl::rofl: You kill me, HT.

Shadyscott69
05-28-2012, 06:10
I just read 10 pages of BS that could have easily been summed up with a single "I know you are, but what am I?" Followed up with a "nan-a nan-a boo boo." :rofl:

Boxerglocker
05-28-2012, 10:20
AFAIK even the vaunted Glock has not received NATO approval yet while hammer fired CZs have.


Glock G17s (1005/17/144/3969) and G19s (1005/66/132/7731) both have carried NATO stock numbers for quite some time and are standard issue for several NATO militaries.

I was gonna say... the Norwegian Army along with the Swedes adopted the Glock about 2 years after the Austrians did.

Restless28
05-28-2012, 10:34
I just read 10 pages of BS that could have easily been summed up with a single "I know you are, but what am I?" Followed up with a "nan-a nan-a boo boo." :rofl:

It's been fun.

rjroberts
05-28-2012, 10:39
I carry a DA/SA weapon and in the last class I took (over 1000 rounds shot ) ...every time I had a malfunction I did a tap, rack, re-assess. Not a second trigger pull. Never. If it didnt go bang the first time...it gets replaced with a fresh round.

Second striking was never taught to me in the military or in the police academy or anywhere that I can think of in my 20 years pulling triggers???

The second strike is nonsense to me personally.

Exactly right! I don't care why the round failed, I want a fresh one: that's the standard malfunction drill.

In the military I carried a 1911 (yeah, a "while" ago) but carried with an empty chamber. So, for me, racking was the beginning anyway and was an instinct.

MrMurphy
05-28-2012, 10:48
We trained for taprackbang. That said, with the whole 90 rounds a year most got in 'training' (qualification) on pistols, it would not surprise me if some genius kept yanking the trigger instead of doing as trained.

Second strike isn't a bad option to have, but it's not something i'd go out of my way to really want.

Never had to fire my M9 at anything but paper, though i drew it a few times. Ours were worn and beat up, but generally reliable, and they filled the function they were designed for. I'd rather have a G17, but seeing some of the people with the abysmal 'training' given, they'd be better off with a sharp stick in some cases.

FLIPPER 348
05-28-2012, 11:00
Not as sorry as I feel for people who likely don't have the balls to be a dick anywhere but the internet.


You can't possibly be as big of a dick in real life.

themighty9mm
05-28-2012, 11:31
It's been fun.
It really has...

themighty9mm
05-28-2012, 11:33
You can't possibly be as big of a dick in real life.
Its only posible if he never ever for any reason leaves the comfort of his house.

Restless28
05-28-2012, 11:34
I guess the Gat had either surrendered, went back to General Glocking, or ARF.

themighty9mm
05-28-2012, 11:35
I guess the Gat had either surrendered, went back to General Glocking, or ARF.
WE WIN! lol:bunny:

pennlineman
05-28-2012, 11:42
I guess the Gat had either surrendered, went back to General Glocking, or ARF.

Maybe the copier jammed. Admin officers were always the most difficult to deal with in my experience. It must be very frustrating for them to be so close to being a real soldier yet not.

Shadyscott69
05-28-2012, 11:52
You can't possibly be as big of a dick in real life.

I bet he can. This display is has been one from a veteran dick. Skills such as his aren't learned overnight.