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FCoulter
05-25-2012, 18:37
As the sun will be setting soon I want to wish you all a Happy Sabbath, as the Sabbath ends Sat. Night another Sabbath will begin, this Sabbath is one of Gods annual Sabbaths. Pentecost.

Enjoy

Kingarthurhk
05-25-2012, 18:55
Acts 2:

" When the day of Pentecost <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26951A))'></sup> came, they were all together <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26951B))'></sup> in one place. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26952C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26954D))'></sup> and began to speak in other tongues<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26954a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26954a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26954E))'></sup> as the Spirit enabled them.
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26955F))'></sup> Jews from every nation under heaven. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Utterly amazed, <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26957G))'></sup> they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26957H))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26959I))'></sup> Pontus <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26959J))'></sup> and Asia,<sup class="footnote" value=''></sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26959K))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Phrygia <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26960L))'></sup> and Pamphylia, <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26960M))'></sup> Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26960N))'></sup> visitors from Rome <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>(both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Some, however, made fun of them and said, “They have had too much wine.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26963O))'></sup>

Peter Addresses the Crowd

<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26965P))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26967Q))'></sup>
Your sons and daughters will prophesy, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26967R))'></sup>
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy. <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26968S))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26969T))'></sup>
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26970U))'></sup>
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
<sup class="versenum">21 </sup>And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26971V))'></sup> will be saved.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26971c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26971c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26971W))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26972X))'></sup> was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26972Y))'></sup> which God did among you through him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26972Z))'></sup> as you yourselves know. <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26973AA))'></sup> and you, with the help of wicked men,<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26973d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26973d)]</sup> put him to death by nailing him to the cross. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26973AB))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>But God raised him from the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26974AC))'></sup> freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26974AD))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
<sup class="versenum">26 </sup>Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26977AE))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’<sup class="footnote" value='[e (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26978e)]'>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26978e)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26978AF))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">29 </sup>“Fellow Israelites, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26979AG))'></sup> I can tell you confidently that the patriarch <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26979AH))'></sup> David died and was buried, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26979AI))'></sup> and his tomb is here <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26979AJ))'></sup> to this day. <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26980AK))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26981AL))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">32 </sup>God has raised this Jesus to life, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26982AM))'></sup> and we are all witnesses <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26982AN))'></sup> of it. <sup class="versenum">33 </sup>Exalted <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26983AO))'></sup> to the right hand of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26983AP))'></sup> he has received from the Father <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26983AQ))'></sup> the promised Holy Spirit <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26983AR))'></sup> and has poured out <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26983AS))'></sup> what you now see and hear. <sup class="versenum">34 </sup>For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
<sup class="versenum">35 </sup>until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet.”’<sup class="footnote" value='[f (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26985f)]'>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26985f)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26985AT))'></sup>


<sup class="versenum">36 </sup>“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26986AU))'></sup> and Messiah.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26986AV))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">37 </sup>When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26987AW))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">38 </sup>Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26988AX))'></sup> every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26988AY))'></sup> And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26988AZ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">39 </sup>The promise is for you and your children <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26989BA))'></sup> and for all who are far off <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26989BB))'></sup> —for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

<sup class="versenum">40 </sup>With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(BC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26990BC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">41 </sup>Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number <sup class="crossreference" value='(BD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26991BD))'></sup> that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers

<sup class="versenum">42 </sup>They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching <sup class="crossreference" value='(BE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26992BE))'></sup> and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26992BF))'></sup> and to prayer. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26992BG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">43 </sup>Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26993BH))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">44 </sup>All the believers were together and had everything in common. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26994BI))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">45 </sup>They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26995BJ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">46 </sup>Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26996BK))'></sup> They broke bread <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26996BL))'></sup> in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, <sup class="versenum">47 </sup>praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26997BM))'></sup> And the Lord added to their number <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26997BN))'></sup> daily those who were being saved."

This action was fulfilled in Acts 2 as predicted by Jesus:

John 14:15-25, "If you love me, keep my commands. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26684V))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26685W))'></sup> to help you and be with you forever— <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>the Spirit of truth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26686X))'></sup> The world cannot accept him, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26686Y))'></sup> because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-26686c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=NIV#fen-NIV-26686c)]</sup> in you. <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>I will not leave you as orphans; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26687Z))'></sup> I will come to you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26687AA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26688AB))'></sup> Because I live, you also will live. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26688AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>On that day <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26689AD))'></sup> you will realize that I am in my Father, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26689AE))'></sup> and you are in me, and I am in you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26689AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26690AG))'></sup> The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26690AH))'></sup> and I too will love them and show myself to them.”
<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>Then Judas <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26691AI))'></sup> (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26691AJ))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">23 </sup>Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26692AK))'></sup> My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26692AL))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26693AM))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>“[B]All this I have spoken while still with you.<sup class="versenum">26 </sup>But the Advocate, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AN))'></sup> the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AO))'></sup> will teach you all things <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AP))'></sup> and will remind you of everything I have said to you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26695AQ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26696AR))'></sup> I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26696AS))'></sup> and do not be afraid."

John 15:26, "When the Advocate <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26726AL))'></sup> comes, whom I will send to you from the Father <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26726AM))'></sup> —the Spirit of truth <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26726AN))'></sup> who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26726AO))'></sup> [B]<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>And you also must testify, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26727AP))'></sup> for you have been with me from the beginning."

John 16:7, "But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26734K))'></sup> will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you."

So, you are right about the weekly Sabbath arriving, but you missed Pentecost's fulfillment nearly 2,000 years ago.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 08:26
I hope everyone is having. Blessed Pentecost.

Brasso
05-27-2012, 08:58
Well, I for one am eagerly awaiting the latter rains.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 09:43
Well, I for one am eagerly awaiting the latter rains.

So do you keep Pentecost now?

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 11:14
http://www.cbcg.org/Video/20120527PentecostDay50.htm

Brasso
05-27-2012, 12:17
So do you keep Pentecost now?

Absolutely.

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.

Jer 5:24 ‘And they do not say in their heart, “Let us now fear יהוה our Elohim, who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He guards for us the appointed weeks of the harvest.”

Hos 6:2 ‘After two days He shall revive us, on the third day He shall raise us up, so that we live before Him.
Hos 6:3 ‘So let us know, let us pursue to know יהוה. His going forth is as certain as the morning. And He comes to us like the rain, like the latter rain watering the earth.’

Kingarthurhk
05-27-2012, 12:43
Absolutely.

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –


Out of curiousity, why do you judge those of us harshly who do not?

Brasso
05-27-2012, 13:19
I don't.

But that doesn't mean I won't tell you you're wrong.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 13:40
What I dont understand is they keep the 10 commandments fro ex. 20 and stop reading there. Ifbthey would continue to readvthe conv. They would see in ex.23 along with the 10 commandments God says to keep the other Sabbaths ie. Holy Days.

Picking and choosing at its best.

Kingarthurhk
05-27-2012, 14:46
What I dont understand is they keep the 10 commandments fro ex. 20 and stop reading there. Ifbthey would continue to readvthe conv. They would see in ex.23 along with the 10 commandments God says to keep the other Sabbaths ie. Holy Days.

Picking and choosing at its best.

Well, what I don't understand, if if you feel that way, why aren't making a sin offering, and taking your criminal disputes to the Elders outside your city gates?

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 15:21
Well, what I don't understand, if if you feel that way, why aren't making a sin offering, and taking your criminal disputes to the Elders outside your city gates?

Have you read exodus chapter 19-24?

rgregoryb
05-27-2012, 15:39
Well, I for one am eagerly awaiting the latter rains.

Me too, my grass is dying. I'd settle for some early rains.

Kingarthurhk
05-27-2012, 15:51
Have you read exodus chapter 19-24?

Yes, my point is that you are cherry picking, while demanding to know why everyone else is cherry picking. Clearly, there is a disntiction between the moral law, ceremonial law, and civil law.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 16:20
Yes, my point is that you are cherry picking, while demanding to know why everyone else is cherry picking. Clearly, there is a disntiction between the moral law, ceremonial law, and civil law.

Let me explain what you keep choosing to ignore. It starts in ex. 19 God starts talking about his cov. With His people Israel. In ex.20 He gives the 10 commandments for Israel to follow. In ex.21 He give His commands that ate tied with the 10 as a standard of living. These commands are to be governed by judges. In chapter 23 we see how God views His Sabbaths as equal. He mentions the weekly Sabbath along with the annual Sabbath, He repeats this in lev.23. The sda church ignores this.

Ex.23: 12*Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

13*And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

14*Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.

15*Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)

16*And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

17*Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God.

18*Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.

19*The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Kingarthurhk
05-27-2012, 16:28
Let me explain what you keep choosing to ignore. It starts in ex. 19 God starts talking about his cov. With His people Israel. In ex.20 He gives the 10 commandments for Israel to follow. In ex.21 He give His commands that ate tied with the 10 as a standard of living. These commands are to be governed by judges. In chapter 23 we see how God views His Sabbaths as equal. He mentions the weekly Sabbath along with the annual Sabbath, He repeats this in lev.23. The sda church ignores this.

Ex.23: 12*Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

13*And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

14*Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.

15*Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)

16*And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.

17*Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God.

18*Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread; neither shall the fat of my sacrifice remain until the morning.

19*The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Try again, the bold references the ceremonial/sacrificial system, which is completely different from the moral law:

Deuteronomy 5

Exodus 34:28, "Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-2525A))'></sup> without eating bread or drinking water. <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-2525B))'></sup> And he wrote on the tablets <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-2525C))'></sup> the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. "

Deuteronomy 10:4, "The Lord wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-5191A))'></sup> he had proclaimed <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-5191B))'></sup> to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-5191C))'></sup> And the Lord gave them to me."

Clearly there is a distinct difference.

Tilley
05-27-2012, 16:29
What I dont understand is they keep the 10 commandments fro ex. 20 and stop reading there. Ifbthey would continue to readvthe conv. They would see in ex.23 along with the 10 commandments God says to keep the other Sabbaths ie. Holy Days.

Picking and choosing at its best.

My salvation is from faith in Jesus, not a day ending in "Y"...perhaps you should read Colossians 2:16.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 16:58
Try again, the bold references the ceremonial/sacrificial system, which is completely different from the moral law:

Deuteronomy 5

Exodus 34:28, "Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-2525A))'></sup> without eating bread or drinking water. <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-2525B))'></sup> And he wrote on the tablets <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-2525C))'></sup> the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. "

Deuteronomy 10:4, "The Lord wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-5191A))'></sup> he had proclaimed <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-5191B))'></sup> to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV1984-5191C))'></sup> And the Lord gave them to me."

Clearly there is a distinct difference.


God is clear in verse 12 He mentions the 4 th commandment verse 13 He mentions the 2 nd and 3 rd commandment, then verse 14 He mentions His annual Sabbaths. God does not make a distinction in these commands. You however do.

Either show me a distinction between verse 13 and 14 or else stop picking and choosing.

rgregoryb
05-27-2012, 17:05
My salvation is from faith in Jesus, not a day ending in "Y"...perhaps you should read Colossians 2:16.

Oh, that's not nearly enough.....you got to have works and observe certain days....where you been? Oh yea, if your church isn't called "church of god" you're toast (literally) . well, except some of the groups did away with hell............:whistling:

Brasso
05-27-2012, 17:25
Clearly, there is a disntiction between the moral law, ceremonial law, and civil law.

Clearly, there is not. Where in the Bible can this distinction be found?

The only thing that is mentioned as temporary is the Levitical Priesthood, and those commandments that pertain. And even this isn't gone forever.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 19:36
My salvation is from faith in Jesus, not a day ending in "Y"...perhaps you should read Colossians 2:16.

Perhaps you should re-read it and if you like we can have a discussion on it since you dont have a clue now what is being said.

Brasso
05-27-2012, 19:44
My salvation is from faith in Jesus, not a day ending in "Y"...perhaps you should read Colossians 2:16.

By that logic, why not just lie, cheat, steal, murder, and lust. Your salvation obviously isn't based on obedience. Your religion sounds pretty cool.

FCoulter
05-27-2012, 20:57
http://www.cbcg.org/should_keep_holydays.htm

Kingarthurhk
05-27-2012, 21:08
Clearly, there is not. Where in the Bible can this distinction be found?

The only thing that is mentioned as temporary is the Levitical Priesthood, and those commandments that pertain. And even this isn't gone forever.

Well, in that case when and where are you going to offer your offerings to? Also, where are you going to bring yur civil disagreements? What you are trying to tell me is that all things are still in place. If that is the case, there is no room for Jesus in your religion, as the sacrificial/ceremeonial system clearly points to Him. Further, you are in a quandry on what to do with civil matters as there are no Elders sitting at the city gates to arbiter your disputes, stone the guilty party, or beat you with a rod.

FCoulter
05-28-2012, 02:54
Well, in that case when and where are you going to offer your offerings to? Also, where are you going to bring yur civil disagreements? What you are trying to tell me is that all things are still in place. If that is the case, there is no room for Jesus in your religion, as the sacrificial/ceremeonial system clearly points to Him. Further, you are in a quandry on what to do with civil matters as there are no Elders sitting at the city gates to arbiter your disputes, stone the guilty party, or beat you with a rod.

Typical dancing around and not answering the questions asked. You made a claim there was a clear distinction in the laws. I and Brasso asked to show it. You have not. Again I ask why in ex. 23 do you pick out verse 12 and 13, then stop and make a distinction on verse 14 on. God makes no distinction, only Whitites do. God even repeats this in lev. 23 with no distinction,but Whitites reject Gods word again.

Pretty pathetic!

RON in PA
05-28-2012, 03:12
You mean Shavuot.

Brasso
05-28-2012, 07:36
Well, in that case when and where are you going to offer your offerings to? Also, where are you going to bring yur civil disagreements? What you are trying to tell me is that all things are still in place. If that is the case, there is no room for Jesus in your religion, as the sacrificial/ceremeonial system clearly points to Him. Further, you are in a quandry on what to do with civil matters as there are no Elders sitting at the city gates to arbiter your disputes, stone the guilty party, or beat you with a rod.

Now that is a strawman argument.

We do not live in that time or place. That government does not currently exist. But we can apply the principle to our lives where applicable. And you keep bringing up these offerings....Where should I take them?

Don't worry, the Kindgdom is coming. Then you can argue with God directly about how He's running things all wrong.

Vic Hays
05-28-2012, 08:07
Now that is a strawman argument.

We do not live in that time or place. That government does not currently exist. But we can apply the principle to our lives where applicable. And you keep bringing up these offerings....Where should I take them?

Don't worry, the Kindgdom is coming. Then you can argue with God directly about how He's running things all wrong.

You finally got it. "We do not live in that time or place."

Those things are no longer applicable.

Brasso
05-28-2012, 10:40
Those things are no longer applicable.

No. Those things are not currently applicable in the time and place we are right now. All else, if applicable, is still His Way. And all will be His Way when the Kingdom is restored.

rgregoryb
05-28-2012, 14:51
No. Those things are not currently applicable in the time and place we are right now. All else, if applicable, is still His Way. And all will be His Way when the Kingdom is restored.

so, according to your statement, YWHW's way can not overcome all situations....he's just waiting for favorable conditions?

Brasso
05-28-2012, 16:51
so, according to your statement, YWHW's way can not overcome all situations....he's just waiting for favorable conditions?

You have read the Bible? 6000 years of man's way. 1000 years of His Way. He's not waiting for favorable conditions. He's giving us time to repent before He pulls out the big fly swatter.

rgregoryb
05-28-2012, 18:29
only 6000 years?

Kingarthurhk
05-28-2012, 19:53
Typical dancing around and not answering the questions asked. You made a claim there was a clear distinction in the laws. I and Brasso asked to show it. You have not. Again I ask why in ex. 23 do you pick out verse 12 and 13, then stop and make a distinction on verse 14 on. God makes no distinction, only Whitites do. God even repeats this in lev. 23 with no distinction,but Whitites reject Gods word again.

Pretty pathetic!

I am not dancing. You are claiming that everyone should keep every edict in all of Exodus and Deuteronomy, yet somehow you manage to surf around the ceremonial and civil portions of the law. What I am telling you, is you are inconsistant.

Brasso
05-28-2012, 21:36
It's illegal for a stockbroker to use inside knowledge for personal gain. I'm not a stockbroker and don't own any stock. Law does not apply to me. Doesn't mean the law doesn't exist.

Neither would I help my neighbor get his ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath. Know why? My neighbor doesn't have an ox and there aren't any ditches near me.

Neither would I stone an adulterer. Know why? It's illegal in the United States of America to stone people. Stoning isn't method of capital punishment and adultery isn't a capital offense. And it takes more than one person to judge someone. I'd be a murderer. Doesn't mean God's Law doesn't exist.

An Israelite from the tribe of Gad didn't have to immerse himself in a mikvah before entering the Holy Place. Know why? He's not a Priest and wasn't allowed into the Holy Place.

I obey the laws that apply to me, where I am, and in whatever circumstance they apply.

Tilley
05-28-2012, 21:54
Perhaps you should re-read it and if you like we can have a discussion on it since you dont have a clue now what is being said.

No thanks. I understand scripture very well thanks to the Holy Spirit. Anyone who relies on the law for salvation and not Christ is an Antichrist.

Get behind me Fred.:upeyes:

Tilley
05-28-2012, 22:03
By that logic, why not just lie, cheat, steal, murder, and lust. Your salvation obviously isn't based on obedience. Your religion sounds pretty cool.

What logic? That is from the word of God.

When I believed, I became a new man, the old man is dead, behold, all things have become new...

Does that ring a bell?

The Holy Spirit lives in me and I live in Christ. I DO NOT WANT TO SIN!

I still do sin, but I have an advocate who pleads for me at the right hand of God, and a spirit who is helping me to be more like Jesus.

RON in PA
05-29-2012, 00:41
Why are Christians arguing about Jewish law that does not apply to them? If you are so anxious to follow the Law given at Mt. Sinai to Moses and Israel denounce Paul, realize that Joshua bar Joseph is not the Messiah, but a Jew murdered by idolators (Rome) who followed the Law and accept circumcision and the oneness of God.

FCoulter
05-29-2012, 06:32
What logic? That is from the word of God.

When I believed, I became a new man, the old man is dead, behold, all things have become new...

Does that ring a bell?

The Holy Spirit lives in me and I live in Christ. I DO NOT WANT TO SIN!

I still do sin, but I have an advocate who pleads for me at the right hand of God, and a spirit who is helping me to be more like Jesus.

You can not sin unless you transgress Gods laws. Without Gods laws there is no sin...silly huh?

1 john 3:4 sin is the transgression of the LAW.

Brasso
05-29-2012, 06:52
I still do sin, but I have an advocate who pleads for me at the right hand of God, and a spirit who is helping me to be more like Jesus.

Great. He was sinless. Know why? He kept the Torah.


Here's the problem with what you have been taught. No one has to do anything to accept Yeshua's blood to cover their sins. Nothing. He takes us where we are. This has always been the case with God's grace. If you have to be perfect first, no one would be saved. That is obvious. This is what the entire discussion at the Jerusalem Council in the Book of Acts was about. Except in their case the defining thing wasn't baptism (getting "saved") but circumcision for the purpose of Temple Service (Works of the Law). In the most ironic thing to occur in the Body is that it went from "can gentiles be saved" to "can Jews be saved". The problem is that Christianity has muddled their definitions and meanings. What you are calling "saved" is really the point that you see your sins and accept His sacrifice on your behalf. You say, "They are saved". Fine. No problem. But now what? What do you do now? Continue in sin? As Paul said, "God forbid!". "How can we who are dead to sin continue to live in it." "Sin is transgression of the Torah."

No one here is saying that you have to keep the commandments to get "saved". But once we take on His Spirit, why would you toss the very thing that defines sin. The very thing that He kept perfectly and called us to repent back to? And no, we don't have to keep it perfectly. As you said, "He is our advocate".

Despite the fact that due to bad programming you are probably having trouble wrapping your mind around this idea, you won't find anything in the Bible, Old or New Testatment, that says otherwise.

"We establish the Torah!"

Vic Hays
05-29-2012, 09:51
You can not sin unless you transgress Gods laws. Without Gods laws there is no sin...silly huh?

1 john 3:4 sin is the transgression of the LAW.

Sin is the transgression of the moral law. Sin deals with morals not rituals.

The Covenant Law of Ten Commandments define sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Schabesbert
05-29-2012, 13:20
Great. He was sinless. Know why? He kept the Torah.
Know why? He was born under the Law.


Ga 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Brasso, don't you want to be redeemed from the law? Don't you wish to recieve adoption as a son of God?

Ro 7:6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Brasso
05-29-2012, 13:40
Know why? He was born under the Law.

We were all born under the Law. Everyone who has ever been or will ever be.

We are all born under the jurisdiction of the Law. The soul that sins wil die. That is the Law. This is why Paul says, "Why should we who have died to sin continue to live in it" "We establish the Law".

We are freed from this death penalty by Messiah. Has nothing to do with being born under some imagined Mosaic dispensation.

You continue to contradict yourself and destroy the Scripture. Sin is violation of the Law. Sin IS violation of the Torah. We are not supposed to keep sinning. Or are you redefiing sin for us? Do you know better than God what sin is? Not one jot or tittle..... That includes EVERYTHING. Get over it. You have inhertied lies and falsehood.

Brasso
05-29-2012, 13:47
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
__________________



Great, now all we have to do is not covet. Murder is fine. I'm so tired of these same ridiculous attempts to avoid obedience.

Schabesbert
05-29-2012, 13:48
We were all born under the Law. Everyone who has ever been or will ever be.

We are all born under the jurisdiction of the Law. The soul that sins wil die. That is the Law. This is why Paul says, "Why should we who have died to sin continue to live in it" "We establish the Law".

We are freed from this death penalty by Messiah. Has nothing to do with being born under some imagined Mosaic dispensation.

You continue to contradict yourself and destroy the Scripture. Sin is violation of the Law. Sin IS violation of the Torah. We are not supposed to keep sinning. Or are you redefiing sin for us? Do you know better than God what sin is?
Perhaps you didn't read the cite I provided from Romans. It contradicts most of what you've said above.

Brasso
05-29-2012, 13:58
Perhaps you didn't read the cite I provided from Romans. It contradicts most of what you've said above.


Yes I did and it doesn't contradict anything I wrote. We are free from the jurisdiction of the Law. But it's still the definition of sin. You are so confused. What about this:

Romans 6
King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Try to make your assertions harmonize at least a little. At least within the same Book.

Schabesbert
05-29-2012, 14:05
Yes I did and it doesn't contradict anything I wrote. We are free from the jurisdiction of the Law. But it's still the definition of sin. You are so confused.
Nope; it's not I that am confused. Know why? I don't keep adding words into the scriptures as do you. St. Paul didn't use the word "jurisdiction" anywhere in the text. Don't try to re-write St. Paul; he doesn't need your help.

What about this:

Romans 6
King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Try to make your assertions harmonize at least a little. At least within the same Book.
Ahhh, so now you're going to try to pit scripture against scripture? Sorry, it doesn't work.

No, those of us who are adopted as sons & daughters are dead to the OLD law. However, we need to follow the Law of Christ, which is in many ways the same, only amplified, as the law delivered to Moses.

Brasso
05-29-2012, 15:47
Nope; it's not I that am confused. Know why? I don't keep adding words into the scriptures as do you. St. Paul didn't use the word "jurisdiction" anywhere in the text. Don't try to re-write St. Paul; he doesn't need your help.

Then you tell me what "Under the Law" means please.

Ahhh, so now you're going to try to pit scripture against scripture? Sorry, it doesn't work.

LOL. Man!!!! I posted the Bible passage that contradicts you interpretation, and you say I'm pitting Scripture against Scripture? I was showing you that your beliefs are contradictory. LOL They harmonize just fine to me because I actually understand them.

No, those of us who are adopted as sons & daughters are dead to the OLD law. However, we need to follow the Law of Christ, which is in many ways the same, only amplified, as the law delivered to Moses.

Perhaps you can give us this list of commandments. What Book and Chapter? When He told us not one jot or tittle of the Torah was done away with, I just assumed He was telling the Truth. I guess I was wrong. Please tell me where to find this Law of Christ.

I'm assuming that it was compiled sometime after He died, otherwise He would be guilty of sin by teaching against the Torah and couldn't be the Messiah. So who compiled this Law of Christ and when did He tell them about it?

Come to think about it, it couldn't be before Pentecost either, because as you know, Pentacost in Hebrew is Shavuot and is one of the 7 Feast Days of YHWH. If the Torah was done away He certainly wouldn't have sent them His Spirit for keeping it.

This is fascinating. I'm on the edge of my seat in anticipation of this new revelation.

FCoulter
05-29-2012, 17:46
I am not dancing. You are claiming that everyone should keep every edict in all of Exodus and Deuteronomy, yet somehow you manage to surf around the ceremonial and civil portions of the law. What I am telling you, is you are inconsistant.

Yes you are, you still have not shown me the distinction in ex.23 between verse 12 and 14.

I understand why you avoid this. When I was baptized I recieved the Holy Spirit. When a sda is baptized they get a "Certificate of Profession of Faith" And Sign a 13 point statement called " My Commitment".

Kingarthurhk
05-29-2012, 18:05
Yes you are, you still have not shown me the distinction in ex.23 between verse 12 and 14.

I understand why you avoid this. When I was baptized I recieved the Holy Spirit. When a sda is baptized they get a "Certificate of Profession of Faith" And Sign a 13 point statement called " My Commitment".

So. did I. Also, if you are familiar with the Holy Spirit, you will see that it was manifested as promised by Jesus at Pentecost already. You are still desperately looking for the former rain, while everyone else is waiting on the later rain.

IhRedrider
05-29-2012, 18:25
I have a suggestion to anyone who wishes for a little more help on the concept of Law as it pertains to the Creator. Obviously the source of understanding is God. His primary mode of transmittal is the Bible and the Holy Spirit. He does also use men who have listened to him. There are many such men. One of them is a fellow by the name of: Howard B Rand LL.B. He wrote " The digest of Divine Law". Get it and read it, I think it has the potential to some light for some people. I highly recommend it.

FCoulter
05-29-2012, 18:35
So. did I. Also, if you are familiar with the Holy Spirit, you will see that it was manifested as promised by Jesus at Pentecost already. You are still desperately looking for the former rain, while everyone else is waiting on the later rain.

Still avoiding the distinction question I see.

This sums it up pretty much.

Seventh-Day Adventists get around keeping all the points of the Law by claiming some are "ceremonial" and don't require strict observance, but in their understanding the Sabbath does require strict observance. Leviticus, chapter 23 lists several "holy convocations." The first mentioned is the Sabbath. The chapter goes on to list other "holy convocations," namely the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened bread, the Wave offering, the Feast of Booths, etc. All are identified as "holy convocations." Why then claim that the first one mentioned, namely the Sabbath, is NOT "ceremonial," but ALL OTHERS listed are! Let's interpret the Bible honestly, and in context!

Vic Hays
05-29-2012, 22:49
Still avoiding the distinction question I see.

This sums it up pretty much.

Seventh-Day Adventists get around keeping all the points of the Law by claiming some are "ceremonial" and don't require strict observance, but in their understanding the Sabbath does require strict observance. Leviticus, chapter 23 lists several "holy convocations." The first mentioned is the Sabbath. The chapter goes on to list other "holy convocations," namely the Passover, the Feast of Unleavened bread, the Wave offering, the Feast of Booths, etc. All are identified as "holy convocations." Why then claim that the first one mentioned, namely the Sabbath, is NOT "ceremonial," but ALL OTHERS listed are! Let's interpret the Bible honestly, and in context!

It is you who has avoided the distinction. I have posted several times the distinction and you avoided it. It is pretty plain that the only law in the Arc of the Covenant was the Ten Commandments because they are the Covenant.

According to the Bible every thing else is distinct from the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


I Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

FCoulter
05-30-2012, 05:45
It is you who has avoided the distinction. I have posted several times the distinction and you avoided it. It is pretty plain that the only law in the Arc of the Covenant was the Ten Commandments because they are the Covenant.

According to the Bible every thing else is distinct from the Ten Commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.


I Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

You keep avoiding what I ask. In the verse I posted God makes NO distinction,you however claim He does. I ask prove it!

1 thess.5:21 prove all things

Seventh-Day Adventists strive to keep "THE LAW" of the Old Testament. They place emphasis on the Ten Commandments as "the Law," when in fact the Ten Commandments form only a small part of the entire Law.

SDA's have a habit of thinking "Ten Commandments" or "Sabbath" every time the Bible mentions "The Law." This is simply not true. The word "Law" occurs over 400 times in Scripture, and refers to the entire Law, comprising ceremonial feasts, special days, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, cleansings etc. The term never applies solely to either the Ten Commandments or the Sabbath alone.

Realistically speaking, no Seventh-Day Adventist TRULY keeps "The Law." Where are their blood sacrifices? Do they heat their houses on Saturday? They are all Law-breakers if they carefully and honestly examine their lives in light of the entire Law. The Bible makes no distinction regarding the Law – that some parts are "ceremonial" as the SDA's claim, a claim designed to avoid truly keeping the Law in its entirety.

Kingarthurhk
05-30-2012, 08:06
You keep avoiding what I ask. In the verse I posted God makes NO distinction,you however claim He does. I ask prove it!

1 thess.5:21 prove all things

Seventh-Day Adventists strive to keep "THE LAW" of the Old Testament. They place emphasis on the Ten Commandments as "the Law," when in fact the Ten Commandments form only a small part of the entire Law.

SDA's have a habit of thinking "Ten Commandments" or "Sabbath" every time the Bible mentions "The Law." This is simply not true. The word "Law" occurs over 400 times in Scripture, and refers to the entire Law, comprising ceremonial feasts, special days, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, cleansings etc. The term never applies solely to either the Ten Commandments or the Sabbath alone.

Realistically speaking, no Seventh-Day Adventist TRULY keeps "The Law." Where are their blood sacrifices? Do they heat their houses on Saturday? They are all Law-breakers if they carefully and honestly examine their lives in light of the entire Law. The Bible makes no distinction regarding the Law – that some parts are "ceremonial" as the SDA's claim, a claim designed to avoid truly keeping the Law in its entirety.

Matthew 23

Vic Hays
05-30-2012, 09:02
You keep avoiding what I ask. In the verse I posted God makes NO distinction,you however claim He does. I ask prove it!

1 thess.5:21 prove all things

Seventh-Day Adventists strive to keep "THE LAW" of the Old Testament. They place emphasis on the Ten Commandments as "the Law," when in fact the Ten Commandments form only a small part of the entire Law.

SDA's have a habit of thinking "Ten Commandments" or "Sabbath" every time the Bible mentions "The Law." This is simply not true. The word "Law" occurs over 400 times in Scripture, and refers to the entire Law, comprising ceremonial feasts, special days, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, cleansings etc. The term never applies solely to either the Ten Commandments or the Sabbath alone.

Realistically speaking, no Seventh-Day Adventist TRULY keeps "The Law." Where are their blood sacrifices? Do they heat their houses on Saturday? They are all Law-breakers if they carefully and honestly examine their lives in light of the entire Law. The Bible makes no distinction regarding the Law – that some parts are "ceremonial" as the SDA's claim, a claim designed to avoid truly keeping the Law in its entirety.

Why was the Ten Commandments the only law in the Ark of the Covenant?

You keep refusing to even acknowledge that God set it apart as the Covenant.

Seventh-day Adventists do not advocate circumcision and the
Ceremonial law that was written by Moses for the nation of Israel.

Some may attempt to keep the feast days, but the requirement was for able bodied men to go to Jerusalem for those feast days. How many comply with that?

Are you posting from Jerusalem FC?

Deuteronomy 14:23 And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of your corn, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herds and of your flocks; that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
14:24 And if the way be too long for you, so that you are not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from you, which the LORD your God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD your God has blessed you:
14:25 Then shall you turn it into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go to the place which the LORD your God shall choose:

Brasso
05-30-2012, 09:35
edited for clarity

The Book of the Covenant, which Moses sanctifies in Exodus chapter 20 contained approximately 90 commandments. Not 10. And is eventually added to and and expanded to 613.

God give Moses a covenant in chapter 34, yet the tablets in both instances are the same.

The Mosaic Covenant cannot be just what was written on the tablets.

The tablets contained the 10 components of the Tabernacle, which provided atonement for breaking the Torah. The atonement could only be accessed, and mercy given, through the Book of the Covenant, ie the Torah.

To the Torah and the Testimony....

The complete covenant has two parts. Our part, the Torah. And God's part, the Testimony or atonement. The tablets of the testimony concerned God's part. The Tabernacle and the way to atonement. The Book of the Law, or Torah, was our part and the only way to access the atonement. Mercy is only applied to a repentent heart. And to repent, is to turn back to YHWH and His instructions.

The Testimony, the Tabernacle and it's sacrifices, is what was written on the tablets, which was written on our hearts by the blood of Messiah. This is why the veil was torn when He died. This is why the Ark will never be used again, even though these tablets were inside of it. Because the tablets dealt with the Testimony which is now fulfilled in Messiah. But our part of the covenant, the Torah, hasn't changed. That's why God tells Israel they are forever. This is why Messiah says the same thing in Mathew 5:17-21. This is what was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, as Abraham already knew the Torah.

Vic Hays
05-30-2012, 15:21
edited for clarity

The Book of the Covenant, which Moses sanctifies in Exodus chapter 20 contained approximately 90 commandments. Not 10. And is eventually added to and and expanded to 613.



Either you are very sick or the Bible was mistranslated 10 instead of 90.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

FCoulter
05-30-2012, 16:55
Either you are very sick or the Bible was mistranslated 10 instead of 90.

Deuteronomy 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

Guess you dont notice the word EVEN.....
It does not say only ten commandments...you really love adding to Gods word to justify whitism's twisted belief system.

Kingarthurhk
05-30-2012, 17:45
Guess you dont notice the word EVEN.....
It does not say only ten commandments...you really love adding to Gods word to justify whitism's twisted belief system.

Deuteronomy 4:13, "He declared to you his covenant, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5018AG))'></sup> the Ten Commandments, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5018AH))'></sup> which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets."

The NIV makes is pretty plain.

Brasso
05-30-2012, 18:02
This is exactly my point.

By the time we get to these traditional 10 commandments, God has in fact already given them a total of about 90. And He continues on with Moses for many more. Moses sanctifies this covenant and people agree to it, and it contains way more than 10 commandments.

My point being again, that what you are calling the 10 commandments is NOT what you think it is. The only thing God told Moses on the mountain were the instructions for the Tabernacle. Everything else was spoken and written down by Moses before he ever went up the mountain.

Roering
05-30-2012, 18:07
Had a great Pentecostal celebration last weekend thanks.

:wavey:

FCoulter
05-30-2012, 18:51
Deuteronomy 4:13, "He declared to you his covenant, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5018AG))'></sup> the Ten Commandments, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-5018AH))'></sup> which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets."

The NIV makes is pretty plain.

Well that makes sense, pick a translation that omits words to back up your claim.

Funny how your brother vic posted it correctly with the word Even that niv omitted.

Vic Hays
05-30-2012, 22:10
Well that makes sense, pick a translation that omits words to back up your claim.

Funny how your brother vic posted it correctly with the word Even that niv omitted.

All you have to do to prove me wrong is find the verse that says the Book of the Law was the Covenant or part of the Covenant.

The old usage of the word even means specifically. So the Covenant was specifically the Ten Commandments.

Here is another text from the King James:

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Vic Hays
05-30-2012, 22:13
This is exactly my point.

By the time we get to these traditional 10 commandments, God has in fact already given them a total of about 90. And He continues on with Moses for many more. Moses sanctifies this covenant and people agree to it, and it contains way more than 10 commandments.

My point being again, that what you are calling the 10 commandments is NOT what you think it is. The only thing God told Moses on the mountain were the instructions for the Tabernacle. Everything else was spoken and written down by Moses before he ever went up the mountain.

The Bible says the Ten Commandments are the Covenant. I am really surprised that you do exactly as you condemn Bert for which is ignore the Bible.

The Bible speaks about these other commandments in the next verse.

Deuteronomy 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 04:54
Well that makes sense, pick a translation that omits words to back up your claim.

Funny how your brother vic posted it correctly with the word Even that niv omitted.

Yes, my bible was poured over by experts, not by some guy named Fred.

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 08:24
All you have to do to prove me wrong is find the verse that says the Book of the Law was the Covenant or part of the Covenant.

The old usage of the word even means specifically. So the Covenant was specifically the Ten Commandments.

Here is another text from the King James:

Exodus 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Your reasoning makes no sense. According to you the 10 commandments only were paced inside the ark.

Now picture this nobody could touch or open the ark. How could the Israelites be taught from something they could never see or read.

The truth is the 10 commandments were placed inside the ark. Then the book of the cov. And the 10 commandments were placed outside of the ark.


This is what they could read and were taught from.

Break away from the EW / Miller teachings it is filled with so many errors that have been exposed many times over.

Vic Hays
05-31-2012, 13:54
The truth is the 10 commandments were placed inside the ark. Then the book of the cov. And the 10 commandments were placed outside of the ark.


OK there is your distinction. Even a child can see that the Ten Commandments were special enough to go inside the Ark of the Covenant alone.

The Book of the Law was temporary according to the Bible. It was added and was to end when the Messiah came.

Galatians 3:19 Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

rgregoryb
05-31-2012, 15:47
Your reasoning makes no sense. According to you the 10 commandments only were paced inside the ark.

Now picture this nobody could touch or open the ark. How could the Israelites be taught from something they could never see or read.

The truth is the 10 commandments were placed inside the ark. Then the book of the cov. And the 10 commandments were placed outside of the ark.


This is what they could read and were taught from.

Break away from the EW / Miller teachings it is filled with so many errors that have been exposed many times over.

they xeroxed them.............

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 16:24
OK there is your distinction. Even a child can see that the Ten Commandments were special enough to go inside the Ark of the Covenant alone.

The Book of the Law was temporary according to the Bible. It was added and was to end when the Messiah came.

Galatians 3:19 Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

So you think he 10 commandments were placed in th ark alone?

This is your error because Hebrews tells us something different.


What happened when the Ark of the Covenant was no longer with Israel , the Book of the Law became their only source of the law. There is no justification to think the Israelites obeyed God by only 603 commands excluding the 10 or only the 10 without the other 603. The Israelites still needed to hear all His words. The only way they could do that is if someone read them from the Book. In Nehemiah 8 Ezra the priest assembled the people and brought the book of the law before them and read it from the morning to mid day. This must have included the 10 for instruction otherwise they could not be obedient OT all God said.

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 16:28
So you think he 10 commandments were placed in th ark alone?

This is your error because Hebrews tells us something different.


What happened when the Ark of the Covenant was no longer with Israel , the Book of the Law became their only source of the law. There is no justification to think the Israelites obeyed God by only 603 commands excluding the 10 or only the 10 without the other 603. The Israelites still needed to hear all His words. The only way they could do that is if someone read them from the Book. In Nehemiah 8 Ezra the priest assembled the people and brought the book of the law before them and read it from the morning to mid day. This must have included the 10 for instruction otherwise they could not be obedient OT all God said.

The actual Hebrews or the Fred version?

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 16:45
The actual Hebrews or the Fred version?

All version,except maybe niv.

Also please explain to me if only the 10 commandments wrre written to the 2 tablets did it fill up both sides of 2 tablets?

Because the whole cov. Was written on hem not just the 10. Again ex. 23 God makes no distinction in the cov., however whitites sure do. Without proof I might add.

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 16:54
Want to know what was placed inside he ark? Go to the Bible for the answers.


*Ex 25: 16 And you shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you.

Deut31: 24-26 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.*

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 16:59
Want to know what was placed inside he ark? Go to the Bible for the answers.


*Ex 25: 16 And you shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you.

Deut31: 24-26 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against you.*

You answered your own question.

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 17:23
You answered your own question.

Yes I did, since you and vic claim only the 10 commandment were placed in side the ark?

Notice it does Not say the book of the law was placed outside the ark

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 18:28
Yes I did, since you and vic claim only the 10 commandment were placed in side the ark?

Notice it does Not say the book of the law was placed outside the ark

It said on the side, not the inside. Attention to detail.

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 18:32
All version,except maybe niv.

That depends if you believe in unicorns or not.

Psalms 29:6, "He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn." KJV

Psalms 29:6, "He makes Lebanon leap <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14315A))'></sup> like a calf,
Sirion<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-14315a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%2029:6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14315a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14315B))'></sup> like a young wild ox."<sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14315C))'></sup> NIV

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 19:01
It said on the side, not the inside. Attention to detail.

No you better pay attention, it clearly says put it in the side, not on the side. Huge difference

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 19:04
That depends if you believe in unicorns or not.

Psalms 29:6, "He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn." KJV

Psalms 29:6, "He makes Lebanon leap <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14315A))'></sup> like a calf,
Sirion<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-14315a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms%2029:6&version=NIV#fen-NIV-14315a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14315B))'></sup> like a young wild ox."<sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-14315C))'></sup> NIV


So will you embrace my translation now? The Holy Bible in its Orginal Order states ...like a young wild ox.

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 19:52
So will you embrace my translation now? The Holy Bible in its Orginal Order states ...like a young wild ox.

No.

1. It is not your translation.

2. Fred is not qualified to make a translation.

FCoulter
05-31-2012, 19:54
No.

1. It is not your translation.

2. Fred is not qualified to make a translation.

So says king arthur

Funny how you and vic avoid answering alot...care to respond to post 77?

Kingarthurhk
05-31-2012, 20:40
So says king arthur

Funny how you and vic avoid answering alot...care to respond to post 77?

So says everyone but the church of Fred.

Vic Hays
05-31-2012, 21:31
So you think he 10 commandments were placed in th ark alone?

This is your error because Hebrews tells us something different.


What happened when the Ark of the Covenant was no longer with Israel , the Book of the Law became their only source of the law. There is no justification to think the Israelites obeyed God by only 603 commands excluding the 10 or only the 10 without the other 603. The Israelites still needed to hear all His words. The only way they could do that is if someone read them from the Book. In Nehemiah 8 Ezra the priest assembled the people and brought the book of the law before them and read it from the morning to mid day. This must have included the 10 for instruction otherwise they could not be obedient OT all God said.

I Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 34:28 He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

I know you have a vested interest in clinging to your philosophy, but the Bible is clear enough for a child to understand on this issue.

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 05:20
I Kings 8:9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 34:28 He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

I know you have a vested interest in clinging to your philosophy, but the Bible is clear enough for a child to understand on this issue.

Yes the Bible is plain,here is what is in the ark.

Hebrews 9:4*Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 05:26
So says everyone but the church of Fred.

You really are the villiage idiot. I have read the niv and just dont like the way it was translated. I would never say anyhing neg. about a translation thaI personally havent read.

Have you read the Holy Bible inits Orginal Order?

Have you even held it?

Bottom line it is Gods written word that you refuse to deal with because someone translated it that you dislike.

Do you know everything about whom translated the niv?

Vic Hays
06-01-2012, 09:12
You really are the villiage idiot. I have read the niv and just dont like the way it was translated. I would never say anyhing neg. about a translation thaI personally havent read.

Have you read the Holy Bible inits Orginal Order?

Have you even held it?

Bottom line it is Gods written word that you refuse to deal with because someone translated it that you dislike.

Do you know everything about whom translated the niv?

You have got to be joking. :wow:

You have a mailing list of about 3000 and you are beating your drum about your own personal version of the Bible as if you were the only person that can understand scripture.

Then you think that your version of the Bible is more inspired than all the other versions?

The Bible according to Fredric :shocked:

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 12:25
You have got to be joking. :wow:

You have a mailing list of about 3000 and you are beating your drum about your own personal version of the Bible as if you were the only person that can understand scripture.

Then you think that your version of the Bible is more inspired than all the other versions?

The Bible according to Fredric :shocked:

Everyone is free to use whatever version they like, my claim is that no other version has the books in the correct order.

Try reading it sometime you will see the difference is not as vast as you seem to think apart from other modern translations

FYI. It is the Bible according to God!

Vic Hays
06-01-2012, 15:00
FYI. It is the Bible according to God!

Do you think you are God?

Do you think you are smarter than the men that translated the King James version or the NIV?

Or, are you claiming special inspiration as a prophet?

You seem to think a lot of yourself.

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 15:10
Do you think you are God?

Do you think you are smarter than the men that translated the King James version or the NIV?

Or, are you claiming special inspiration as a prophet?

Do you have a clue how to translate a Bible?

The kjv is a good translation, it has some errors, the niv is a horrible translation.


The holy Bible in its orginal Order is not perfect, no translation is. What it does do that others failed to do is place the books in the order they were meant to be in.

Dont judge it until you have read it. You cast judgement and have never even seen it.

As for being a prophet, if you knew anything you would know There are no prophet needed today.....not even your dear Ellen.

She was a false prophet though, plenty of them floating around.


It seems king arthur has a buddy in the village idoit club.

Kingarthurhk
06-01-2012, 15:28
Do you have a clue how to translate a Bible?

No, and neither do you.


The kjv is a good translation, it has some errors, the niv is a horrible translation.


According to Fred Cult-er? Do you have an original thought he didn't give you?


The holy Bible in its orginal Order is not perfect, no translation is. What it does do that others failed to do is place the books in the order they were meant to be in.

If the Bible isn't inerrant, than you may as well tryin another fringe group based upon a singular personality, there are many to choose from.


Dont judge it until you have read it. You cast judgement and have never even seen it.

Actually, one of the first things I do every morning is ready my bible.


As for being a prophet, if you knew anything you would know There are no prophet needed today.....not even your dear Ellen.

If there were any alive today, I suspect you would be one of the first to pick up a stone.


She was a false prophet though, plenty of them floating around.

You mean, the Fred?


It seems king arthur has a buddy in the village idoit club.

If that means being seperate and apart from what you are selling, I will gladly endorse the epithet.

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 16:04
No, and neither do you.

[quote]
The kjv is a good translation, it has some errors, the niv is a horrible translation.[/qoute]

According to Fred Cult-er? Do you have an original thought he didn't give you?



If the Bible isn't inerrant, than you may as well tryin another fringe group based upon a singular personality, there are many to choose from.



Actually, one of the first things I do every morning is ready my bible.

[quote]
As for being a prophet, if you knew anything you would know There are no prophet needed today.....not even your dear Ellen.[/quoute]

If there were any alive today, I suspect you would be one of the first to pick up a stone.



You mean, the Fred?



If that means being seperate and apart from what you are selling, I will gladly endorse the epithet.


Funny how when you or vic cant address questions asked of you, you start attacking.

Thats ok though an attack from either of you is equal to an child sticking out their tongue and saying nanna nanna boo boo, im gonna tell my mommy (ellen) :tongueout:

Kingarthurhk
06-01-2012, 17:07
[quote=Kingarthurhk;19039746]No, and neither do you.

[quote]
The kjv is a good translation, it has some errors, the niv is a horrible translation.[/qoute]

According to Fred Cult-er? Do you have an original thought he didn't give you?



If the Bible isn't inerrant, than you may as well tryin another fringe group based upon a singular personality, there are many to choose from.



Actually, one of the first things I do every morning is ready my bible.




Funny how when you or vic cant address questions asked of you, you start attacking.

Thats ok though an attack from either of you is equal to an child sticking out their tongue and saying nanna nanna boo boo, im gonna tell my mommy (ellen) :tongueout:

Actually, you are the attacker, and also I can tell when you are irritated, beause you can't use the quote function properly.

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 17:31
[quote=FCoulter;19039876][quote=Kingarthurhk;19039746]No, and neither do you.



Actually, you are the attacker, and also I can tell when you are irritated, beause you can't use the quote function properly.

I am far from irritated, I actually am doing great preparing for the Sabbath. If you go back to post 89 you will see your quotes were messed up so when I quoted you it came across just as you think, scrambled.....:rofl:

Kingarthurhk
06-01-2012, 17:33
[quote=Kingarthurhk;19040098][quote=FCoulter;19039876]

I am far from irritated, I actually am doing great preparing for the Sabbath. If you go back to post 89 you will see your quotes were messed up so when I quoted you it came across just as you think, scrambled.....:rofl:

Messed it up again.

FCoulter
06-01-2012, 18:20
[quote=FCoulter;19040195][quote=Kingarthurhk;19040098]

Messed it up again.

Are you really that simple to see you are the one messing it up?

Anyways its all good I always let children play.

Kingarthurhk
06-01-2012, 18:48
Are you really that simple to see you are the one messing it up?

Anyways its all good I always let children play.

LOL, I am probably old enough to be your father.

Vic Hays
06-01-2012, 22:23
It seems king arthur has a buddy in the village idoit club.

Do I detect some malice there?

You claim to be a Bible translator yet you do not follow it.

I Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Have a blessed Sabbath Fredrik

Tilley
06-01-2012, 23:16
Do I detect some malice there?

You claim to be a Bible translator yet you do not follow it.


Fred reminds of the guy who was on TV for a long time until he died a few years ago. He had a white beard and a straw hat...and he was always smoking cigars on stage. He was always translating the Bible from his knowledge of Greek.

He would take breaks while collecting offerings, and would show the TV audience videos of sexy women riding horseback. He eventually married a really sexy young woman, who to this day still carries on his ministry, except now she wears all black and has a "white-collar" like a priest. She still is really good looking.




The point I guess I am trying to make hear is just because you translate scripture does not make you holy. You usually translate to suite your own agenda, then you start having sexy women sit in the front row and jump up and down while wearing a mini-skirt.

Fred...you need an assistant?

FCoulter
06-02-2012, 07:21
I Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Have a blessed Sabbath Fredrik

How classic to use his verse then reject the true meaning it proves. Crazy indeed

Next time instead of ignoring as usual, try highlighting, therefore let us keep the feast.

Vic Hays
06-02-2012, 08:00
How classic to use his verse then reject the true meaning it proves. Crazy indeed

Next time instead of ignoring as usual, try highlighting, therefore let us keep the feast.

The true meaning is highlighted. God is into character not rituals. You keep ignoring the core values of Christianity.

Psalm 51:15 O Lord, open you my lips; and my mouth shall show forth your praise.
51:16 For you desire not sacrifice; else would I give it: you delight not in burnt offering.
51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Brasso
06-02-2012, 13:07
Give it up. I've been begging people to obey God for years.

If they don't believe Moses....

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 13:32
Give it up. I've been begging people to obey God for years.

If they don't believe Moses....

I believe in the I AM.

Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, “I am who I am.<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-1594c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1594c)]</sup> This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-1594AG))'></sup> has sent me to you.’”

John 8:58, "“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26440BU))'></sup> I am!”

FCoulter
06-02-2012, 13:51
I believe in the I AM.

Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, “I am who I am.<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-1594c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-1594c)]</sup> This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-1594AG))'></sup> has sent me to you.’”

John 8:58, "“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-26440BU))'></sup> I am!”


And yet you dont obey the I Am. Faith without works is DEAD.

rgregoryb
06-02-2012, 16:28
Hey King.....this you? :supergrin::supergrin:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2i6hpbc.jpg


happened in Texas......jes sayin'

rgregoryb
06-02-2012, 16:35
and now for a photo of Fred's church.....with the entire congregation.......:supergrin::supergrin:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w228/zilinfinite/me%20and%20friends/tinychurch.jpg

Vic Hays
06-02-2012, 16:43
Give it up. I've been begging people to obey God for years.

If they don't believe Moses....

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.
7:24 Therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, which built his house on a rock:
7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat on that house; and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.

A personal relationship with the Lord beats rituals every time.

rgregoryb
06-02-2012, 16:47
and one last shot before Sunday the official day of worship as declared by all of Christendom (well except for a few fringe groups)

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz252/sarapanpagibiblika/churchmoney.jpg


AND YES I KNOW IT IS THE "LOVE OF MONEY" but it is pretty spot on!

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 16:48
Hey King.....this you? :supergrin::supergrin:

http://i46.tinypic.com/2i6hpbc.jpg


happened in Texas......jes sayin'

Nah. No uniform for me, for 10 years or so. Also, I don't work for those guys. However, I have known someone who did that-TWICE.:rofl:

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 16:50
And yet you dont obey the I Am. Faith without works is DEAD.

What are you going on about?

FCoulter
06-02-2012, 17:00
What are you going on about?

Just stuff thats obviously over your head.

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 17:11
Just stuff thats obviously over your head.

Pharistical tradition?:dunno:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/bar/index.htm

Looks so familiar....Hmmm. This is what you and Brasso are going on about?

Brasso
06-02-2012, 18:21
A personal relationship with the Lord beats rituals every time.

Sin is violation of the Torah. Do you disagree with that statement? Do you think it's ritual to obey?

Might as well be talking to a wall.

Kingarthurhk
06-02-2012, 18:33
Sin is violation of the Torah. Do you disagree with that statement? Do you think it's ritual to obey?

Might as well be talking to a wall.

Col 2:16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths

:dunno:

rgregoryb
06-02-2012, 19:02
Sin is violation of the Torah. Do you disagree with that statement? Do you think it's ritual to obey?

Might as well be talking to a wall.

I thought you Jewish folks did that, or else leave a little note.

http://www.bibleplaces.com/images12/Men-praying-at-Western-Wall,-tb090705000-bibleplaces.jpg

Vic Hays
06-02-2012, 21:17
Sin is violation of the Torah. Do you disagree with that statement? Do you think it's ritual to obey?

Might as well be talking to a wall.

Washing pots and cups and ceremonially washing hands is not important to God. If it is the moral law that is being broken that is sin.


Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things you do.
7:9 And he said to them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honor your father and your mother; and, Whoever curses father or mother, let him die the death:
7:11 But you say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me; he shall be free.
7:12 And you suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

Sorry Brasso, keeping Pentecost or not is not a moral issue unless you have been circumcised and vowed to keep the whole law.

Brasso
06-02-2012, 21:33
Washing pots and cups and ceremonially washing hands is not important to God. If it is the moral law that is being broken that is sin.

Is that in the Torah?

The just shall live by faith. This is why faith without works is dead.

I pray for the day that veil is lifted from your eyes.

Vic Hays
06-03-2012, 08:30
Is that in the Torah?

The just shall live by faith. This is why faith without works is dead.

I pray for the day that veil is lifted from your eyes.

I can pray the same for you.

II Corinthians 13 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil not taken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
3:15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away.
3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Brasso
06-04-2012, 08:12
I'm speaking of the Torah. You're still stuck on the Mosaic Covenant. Of course, neither of them are done away, but that's another subject. The point being that the Covenant and the Torah aren't the same thing. The New Covenant contains the Torah as well.

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

Vic Hays
06-04-2012, 14:27
I'm speaking of the Torah. You're still stuck on the Mosaic Covenant. Of course, neither of them are done away, but that's another subject. The point being that the Covenant and the Torah aren't the same thing. The New Covenant contains the Torah as well.

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

I see you use a rather unusual translation of the Bible to make your point. I doubt that your point is valid, however.

Brasso
06-04-2012, 15:02
I see you use a rather unusual translation of the Bible to make your point. I doubt that your point is valid, however.

I can use the heavily flawed KJV if you wish. It says the exact same thing.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You doubt many things. Particularly the hundreds of passages that
contradict your beliefs.

Vic Hays
06-04-2012, 20:51
I can use the heavily flawed KJV if you wish. It says the exact same thing.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You doubt many things. Particularly the hundreds of passages that
contradict your beliefs.

The King James does not say Torah, it says law. That is not exactly the same word.

When you say law you must determine which law. Is it the moral law of Ten Commandments, is it the law of Moses or what. Don't give me that there is no difference.

Brasso
06-05-2012, 10:00
The King James does not say Torah, it says law. That is not exactly the same word.

When you say law you must determine which law. Is it the moral law of Ten Commandments, is it the law of Moses or what. Don't give me that there is no difference.


There is no difference.

But the text in Hebrew says "Torah". Torah is the more correct translation than Law, as it is the actual word used.

What you don't seem to understand is that if the "cremonial laws" are gone, then you have no sin sacrifice. Messiah's blood was a wasste of time. You are not saved. Not that the Bible makes any such distinction. Israel agreed to a covenant made up of many more than 10 commandments, including commandments dealing with sacrifice, which were completely different than the Law of the Tabernacle or Levitical Priesthood. Melchizadok offered sacrifeces as well. And as Ezekiel and other prophets tell us, Messiah is Mechizadok Priest and will offer sacrifices in the Millenial Temple. It's quite detailed. It's a shame you don't believe it.

Vic Hays
06-05-2012, 12:07
What you don't seem to understand is that if the "cremonial laws" are gone, then you have no sin sacrifice. Messiah's blood was a wasste of time. You are not saved. Not that the Bible makes any such distinction. Israel agreed to a covenant made up of many more than 10 commandments, including commandments dealing with sacrifice, which were completely different than the Law of the Tabernacle or Levitical Priesthood. Melchizadok offered sacrifeces as well. And as Ezekiel and other prophets tell us, Messiah is Mechizadok Priest and will offer sacrifices in the Millenial Temple. It's quite detailed. It's a shame you don't believe it.

I see what you are saying. So this is the philosophy that is causing the problem.

Messiah is in the Temple now offering His sacrifice. It would be a step backwards to offer sacrifices in an earthly temple.

Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Before the Millennium comes the sin issue will be put away by Jesus. He will have dealt with it before His second coming.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.

Brasso
06-05-2012, 15:24
and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.

Amazingly, as you can see, this is future tense. So guess what......

"Till heaven and earth pass away..." "...not one jot or tittle..."

Ever wonder why He said that? He's only quoting Himself. See, He's not a liar.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Blessing and curse. Life and death. Why don't you believe Him? Why, being in life, do you continue in the ways of death?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Vic Hays
06-05-2012, 16:51
Amazingly, as you can see, this is future tense. So guess what......

"Till heaven and earth pass away..." "...not one jot or tittle..."

Ever wonder why He said that? He's only quoting Himself. See, He's not a liar.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Blessing and curse. Life and death. Why don't you believe Him? Why, being in life, do you continue in the ways of death?

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

And read the rest of the text:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.

This is talking about the second coming which is before the Millinium. There is no more atonement after the second coming so there will not be sacrifices being made.

Schabesbert
06-05-2012, 17:21
And read the rest of the text:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.

This is talking about the second coming which is before the Millinium. There is no more atonement after the second coming so there will not be sacrifices being made.
You mean the THIRD coming, don't you?
Didn't you and Brasso both claim that Jesus' ascended TWICE?

Oh, consistancy isn't your bag?

Brasso
06-05-2012, 17:43
Seriously?

Brasso
06-05-2012, 17:45
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and to them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin to salvation.

This is talking about the second coming which is before the Millinium. There is no more atonement after the second coming so there will not be sacrifices being made.

Yes, that is why I said it's future.

Why isn't there atonement after the second coming? He's going to gather the First Fruits. There is still another 1000 years of human history to go.

Kingarthurhk
06-05-2012, 19:23
Yes, that is why I said it's future.

Why isn't there atonement after the second coming? He's going to gather the First Fruits. There is still another 1000 years of human history to go.

1 Corinthians 15:20-25, "But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28739AI))'></sup> the firstfruits <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28739AJ))'></sup> of those who have fallen asleep. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28739AK))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>For since death came through a man, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28740AL))'></sup> the resurrection of the dead <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28740AM))'></sup> comes also through a man. <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28741AN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28742AO))'></sup> then, when he comes, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28742AP))'></sup> those who belong to him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28742AQ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28743AR))'></sup> to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28743AS))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>For he must reign <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28744AT))'></sup> until he has put all his enemies under his feet. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28744AU))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Jesus is the First Fruit. This is how He fufilled the feast of the First Fruit, btw.

2 Peter 3:10-13 "<sup class="versenum">10 </sup>But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30533S))'></sup> The heavens will disappear with a roar; <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30533T))'></sup> the elements will be destroyed by fire, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30533U))'></sup> and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>as you look forward <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30535W))'></sup> to the day of God and speed its coming.<sup class="footnote" value=''>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30535b)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30535X))'></sup> That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30535Y))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30536Z))'></sup> where righteousness dwells."

Revelation 20:1-6, "And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31040A))'></sup> having the key <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31040B))'></sup> to the Abyss <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31040C))'></sup> and holding in his hand a great chain. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>[B]He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31041D))'></sup> and bound him for a thousand years. <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31041E))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>He threw him into the Abyss, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31042F))'></sup> and locked and sealed <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31042G))'></sup> it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31042H))'></sup> anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>I saw thrones <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043I))'></sup> on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043J))'></sup> And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043K))'></sup> because of their testimony about Jesus <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043L))'></sup> and because of the word of God. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043M))'></sup> They<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-31043a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20&version=NIV#fen-NIV-31043a)]</sup> had not worshiped the beast <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043N))'></sup> or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043O))'></sup> They came to life and reigned <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31043P))'></sup> with Christ a thousand years. <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31044Q))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Blessed <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31045R))'></sup> and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31045S))'></sup> has no power over them, but they will be priests <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31045T))'></sup> of God and of Christ and will reign with him <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-31045U))'></sup> for a thousand years."

So, it is clear the earth is destroyed, and those of the first ressurection are with Christ in heaven.

Where are these other humans dwelling? In a destroyed earth where there is only the dead? The only humans in existance then are these:

1 Thessalonians 13-18, "Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29617W))'></sup> about those who sleep in death, <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29617X))'></sup> so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29617Y))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29618Z))'></sup> and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29618AA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29619AB))'></sup> will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29619AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29620AD))'></sup> with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29620AE))'></sup> and with the trumpet call of God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29620AF))'></sup> and the dead in Christ will rise first. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29620AG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>After that, we who are still alive and are left <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29621AH))'></sup> will be caught up together with them in the clouds <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29621AI))'></sup> to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29621AJ))'></sup> forever. <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>Therefore encourage one another <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29622AK))'></sup> with these words."







<sup class="versenum"></sup>

Brasso
06-06-2012, 06:22
Sorry. I read the front of the book.

I actually know what it says. And it don't say that.

Have you read Ezekiel? Jeremiah? Hosea? Malachai? Any of them?

There's no point of even discussing this if you haven't.

Vic Hays
06-06-2012, 10:20
Sorry. I read the front of the book.

I actually know what it says. And it don't say that.

Have you read Ezekiel? Jeremiah? Hosea? Malachai? Any of them?

There's no point of even discussing this if you haven't.

I read those also. I even read the end of the book.

It says, "Jesus is going to win", He already has, but He is waiting for and helping us.

Kingarthurhk
06-06-2012, 16:17
Sorry. I read the front of the book.

I actually know what it says. And it don't say that.

Have you read Ezekiel? Jeremiah? Hosea? Malachai? Any of them?

There's no point of even discussing this if you haven't.

Peter, you will have to go to the gentiles eventually you know.

Brasso
06-06-2012, 19:24
Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
Eze 47:14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
Eze 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
Eze 47:16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
Eze 47:17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
Eze 47:18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
Eze 47:19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
Eze 47:20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
Eze 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

When is this going to happen?

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

Is this just one of those things we're supposed to forget?

You do realize that the majority of the Bible is about this? You intend to throw it all out for Ellen White?

Kingarthurhk
06-06-2012, 20:38
Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
Eze 47:14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
Eze 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
Eze 47:16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
Eze 47:17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
Eze 47:18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
Eze 47:19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
Eze 47:20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
Eze 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

When is this going to happen?

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

Is this just one of those things we're supposed to forget?

You do realize that the majority of the Bible is about this? You intend to throw it all out for Ellen White?

There were several covenants in the bible. The first was in the Garden of Eden. I guess you may have missed that point while staying with the First Witness and not embracing both of them.

Revelation 11:3-10, "<sup> </sup>And I will appoint my two witnesses, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30876F))'></sup> and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30876G))'></sup> clothed in sackcloth.” <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30876H))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>They are “the two olive trees” <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30877I))'></sup>and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.”<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-30877a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+11&version=NIV#fen-NIV-30877a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30877J))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30878K))'></sup> This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30878L))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>They have power to shut up the heavens <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30879M))'></sup> so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30879N))'></sup> and they have power to turn the waters into blood <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30879O))'></sup> and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30880P))'></sup> that comes up from the Abyss <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30880Q))'></sup> will attack them, <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30880R))'></sup> and overpower and kill them. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30881S))'></sup> —which is figuratively called Sodom <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30881T))'></sup> and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30881U))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30882V))'></sup> will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30882W))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>The inhabitants of the earth <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30883X))'></sup> will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-30883Y))'></sup> because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth."

Vic Hays
06-06-2012, 23:07
Is this just one of those things we're supposed to forget?

You do realize that the majority of the Bible is about this? You intend to throw it all out for Ellen White?

The Bible says they broke the covenant. This required a change.

The prophecy is fulfilled in David's son.

Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up to them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.
13:23 Of this man’ seed has God according to his promise raised to Israel a Savior, Jesus:

Brasso
06-07-2012, 13:32
So the Covenant with Abraham is broken? Are you really going to go that far to cling to a failed theology?

Rom 11:28 Truly, as regards the Good News they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of Elohim are not to be repented of.

90% of the Bible is about the Promise to Abraham and his descendents to inherit the Land of Israel as an eternal possession. I can't believe you're saying this. I'm flabbergasted.

Brasso
06-07-2012, 14:38
Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up to them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my own heart, which shall fulfill all my will.
13:23 Of this man’ seed has God according to his promise raised to Israel a Savior, Jesus:

I hope that you're not saying the Gospel is new to the New Testament?

Vic Hays
06-07-2012, 16:12
I hope that you're not saying the Gospel is new to the New Testament?

No, even Abraham was looking for the heavenly Jerusalem not the earthly.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11:9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a [land] not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
11:10 for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Brasso
06-07-2012, 18:52
And the Land?

Vic Hays
06-08-2012, 10:01
And the Land?

The New Jerusalem will occupy that land.

Brasso
06-09-2012, 18:11
What Land? According to you the earth is going to be destroyed. How exactly is the Land of Israel going to fill the requirements that the prophets have given it if there is no Millenial Kingdom?

How?

Vic Hays
06-09-2012, 18:26
What Land? According to you the earth is going to be destroyed. How exactly is the Land of Israel going to fill the requirements that the prophets have given it if there is no Millenial Kingdom?

How?

God's promises are conditional. They will all be fulfilled, but His way.

The earth is going to be destroyed.

II Peter
3:10 and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
3:11 All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?
3:12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;
3:13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;
3:14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace,

Kingarthurhk
06-09-2012, 18:55
So the Covenant with Abraham is broken? Are you really going to go that far to cling to a failed theology?

Rom 11:28 Truly, as regards the Good News they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of Elohim are not to be repented of.

90% of the Bible is about the Promise to Abraham and his descendents to inherit the Land of Israel as an eternal possession. I can't believe you're saying this. I'm flabbergasted.

Out of curiousity, what version of the Bible are you using. I have noticed you inserting words stuch at Torah, etc. I have been observing this for sometime. I have bolded the top portion of your quote to try to understand what exactly you are doing. Yes, I understand who Elohim is, before your ask me. I first discovered that in a dream where I found myself repeating the Hebrew word and a few others I did not know, before I sought them out to understand them.

So, I don't need to know what Elohim is. I have had a very intimate experience with that word even before I knew what it was.

My question is, what version of the bible do you use where that word appears. I am unfamiliear with any that does.

FCoulter
06-09-2012, 20:23
God's promises are conditional. They will all be fulfilled, but His way.

The earth is going to be destroyed.

II Peter
3:10 and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.
3:11 All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts?
3:12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;
3:13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;
3:14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace,

You claim the erath is destroyed and the saints reign in heaven.

That is a EW teaching

Now what does the Bible actually teach?



Where will they reign? Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Here the Righteous Branch, is King Jesus, a descendant of King David. Notice he will reign, prosper, and judge in the earth.


Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

When the Lord returns who will be removed from the earth, the wicked or the righteous? Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Also see Matthew 13:49).

Proverbs 10:29-30 ¶ The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity. The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

Proverbs 2:21-22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (Also see Matthew 5:5, Psalms 115:16)

Vic Hays
06-09-2012, 21:05
You claim the erath is destroyed and the saints reign in heaven.

That is a EW teaching

Now what does the Bible actually teach?




I don't see how you can quote me quoting the Bible about the earth being destroyed and think you have some kind of credibility.

Have you taken your meds today?

II Peter
3:10 and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

The earth will be recreated.

II Peter 3:13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;
3:14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace

You asked for what the Bible teaches so here it is. You claim Ellen White is in harmony with this? Praise the Lord! :wavey:

FCoulter
06-10-2012, 06:07
I don't see how you can quote me quoting the Bible about the earth being destroyed and think you have some kind of credibility.

Have you taken your meds today?

II Peter
3:10 and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

The earth will be recreated.

II Peter 3:13 and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;
3:14 wherefore, beloved, these things waiting for, be diligent, spotless and unblameable, by Him to be found in peace

You asked for what the Bible teaches so here it is. You claim Ellen White is in harmony with this? Praise the Lord! :wavey:


Please provide Biblical proof your destroyed earth is during the 1000 yrs?

Please address my questions (since you never do ) about the saints reigning on EARTH?

Vic Hays
06-10-2012, 07:39
Please provide Biblical proof your destroyed earth is during the 1000 yrs?

Please address my questions (since you never do ) about the saints reigning on EARTH?

You have not shown that the saints reign on earth during the 1000 years. I have shown that they go with Jesus to the heavenly Jerusalem with Him during that time.

Only the saints are taken to the Father's house where Jesus has prepared a place for us at the first resurrection. The rest of the dead are not resurrected for 1000 years so there is no one to reign over on earth at that time.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

FCoulter
06-10-2012, 10:20
You have not shown that the saints reign on earth during the 1000 years. I have shown that they go with Jesus to the heavenly Jerusalem with Him during that time.

Only the saints are taken to the Father's house where Jesus has prepared a place for us at the first resurrection. The rest of the dead are not resurrected for 1000 years so there is no one to reign over on earth at that time.

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark on their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.





Vic lets examine what the Bible is actually saying and what you are leaving out.

I agree Christ return and the saints meet Him in the air.

I also agree the rest of the dead doesnt live u til the 1000 yrs are over.

Now here is what you ignore, what about all the millions on earth that are alive not dead when Christ return that are NOT the saints?

Those millions that are live are the ones thawill be reigned over on earth as the Biblie states.

Brasso
06-10-2012, 15:06
Most of the passages I quote come from the ISR Scriptures. Sometimes from the Aramaic Pes-hitta by Roth, but that's not on my computer.

The promise to Abraham, which is unconditional, specifies an area of land that has not yet been fulfilled. The same area is given by other prophets as well. You are "breaking" Scripture, which can't happen. ergo, you are wrong.

Vic Hays
06-10-2012, 15:30
Vic lets examine what the Bible is actually saying and what you are leaving out.

I agree Christ return and the saints meet Him in the air.

I also agree the rest of the dead doesnt live u til the 1000 yrs are over.

Now here is what you ignore, what about all the millions on earth that are alive not dead when Christ return that are NOT the saints?

Those millions that are live are the ones thawill be reigned over on earth as the Biblie states.

Where is your text that says millions survive the Second Coming? How many survived Noah's flood?

Jesus in the Bible compares the second coming to Noah's flood and says:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In Noah's flood there were only the saved and the lost. There is no Bible verse that says there is a third class for the flood or the second coming.

FCoulter
06-10-2012, 16:57
Where is your text that says millions survive the Second Coming? How many survived Noah's flood?

Jesus in the Bible compares the second coming to Noah's flood and says:

Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In Noah's flood there were only the saved and the lost. There is no Bible verse that says there is a third class for the flood or the second coming.

You answered it yourself.

If one is taken,one is left.

24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

rgregoryb
06-10-2012, 19:00
Seems like a lot of contradiction in scripture, geez whoda thought?

Vic Hays
06-10-2012, 19:19
You answered it yourself.

If one is taken,one is left.

24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The secret rapturists are big on this text. One class goes with Jesus the other class is left on the earth for the birds to eat.

The disciples asked Jesus where they would be taken.

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed; the one will be taken, and the other will be left.
17:35 Two women will be grinding together; the one will be taken, and the other left.
17:36 Two men will be in the field; the one will be taken, and the other left.
17:37 And they answered and said to him, Where Lord? And he said to them, Wherever the body is, thither will the eagles be collected.

There are two suppers. One is the wedding supper of the Lamb. the other is the feast of the birds.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat on the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Brasso
06-11-2012, 06:00
The secret rapturists are big on this text. One class goes with Jesus the other class is left on the earth for the birds to eat.

Well it's a good thing it won't be a secret and that this isn't what the Bible says.

The ones taken are the ones being destroyed. It's the ones that are left that are the sons and daughters. Wheat and Tares.

“The reign of the heavens has become like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Mat 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went away.
Mat 13:26 “And when the blade sprouted and bore fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
Mat 13:27 “And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where then does it have the darnel?’
Mat 13:28 “And he said to them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ And the servants said to him, ‘Do you wish then, that we go and gather them up?’
Mat 13:29 “But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I shall say to the reapers, “First gather the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.” ’ ”

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Vic Hays
06-11-2012, 09:10
Well it's a good thing it won't be a secret and that this isn't what the Bible says.

The ones taken are the ones being destroyed. It's the ones that are left that are the sons and daughters. Wheat and Tares.

“The reign of the heavens has become like a man who sowed good seed in his field,
Mat 13:25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went away.
Mat 13:26 “And when the blade sprouted and bore fruit, then the darnel also appeared.
Mat 13:27 “And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? From where then does it have the darnel?’
Mat 13:28 “And he said to them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ And the servants said to him, ‘Do you wish then, that we go and gather them up?’
Mat 13:29 “But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also uproot the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 ‘Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I shall say to the reapers, “First gather the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.” ’ ”

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

:milestone: Brasso, you understand the second coming is the harvest. There are the saved and the lost. Those taken away by the flood died. Those left were saved in the Ark.

Jesus takes the saved to the New Jerusalem that He has prepared in heaven for the saved.

There is no one left alive on earth at that time.

FCoulter
06-11-2012, 09:13
There is no one left alive on earth at that time.

At this point I demand Biblical proof since you keep, to put it frankly keep lying.

Vic Hays
06-11-2012, 15:01
At this point I demand Biblical proof since you keep, to put it frankly keep lying.

You have no text that says there are people alive on earth during the thousand years and you demand proof from me?

I have shown several texts to you. The Bible attests to only 2 groups as in Noah's flood, the saved and the lost. You are the supposed Bible expert. Provide the texts that say there is a third group of people during the thousand years.

Jesus speaks of His second coming in Revelation. At the second coming each case has been decided.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

FCoulter
06-11-2012, 16:11
You have no text that says there are people alive on earth during the thousand years and you demand proof from me?

I have shown several texts to you. The Bible attests to only 2 groups as in Noah's flood, the saved and the lost. You are the supposed Bible expert. Provide the texts that say there is a third group of people during the thousand years.

Jesus speaks of His second coming in Revelation. At the second coming each case has been decided.

Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Ok, we know after Jesus has His saints the reign and rule with Him.

Lets see where and whom they rule, you claim all on earth is dead.

Lets see what the Bible says.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Notice NATIONS

Micah 4:1-4 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain [mountains represent kingdoms in prophecy] of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth [out] of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.* And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.* But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it.

Who is left?

“Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. (Isa 24:6)

If some survive, how can Christ’s return be compared to the day of Noah, where the flood destroyed all (Matthew 24:37-38)? With little doubt there will be great destruction upon the earth, and all those who have rejected Christ will perish, as in the days of the flood. Yet the Lord made a promise in Genesis 8:21 “Neither will I again smite anymore every thing living, as I have done.”

What the Lord was emphasizing when he was comparing his return to the day of Noah was the suddenness that it came upon the people, and how it caught them unaware.* He ended his discourse by saying: Matthew 24:42-44 “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”



Ezekiel Chapter 39 tells us that those who survive will burn for fire wood the weapons of those slain by the Lord for seven years (Ezekiel 39:9-10). It also tells us that it will take seven months to bury all the dead in the land of Israel (Ezekiel 39:11-15). Ezekiel 39:16-20 is describing the same event as Revelation 19:17-21.

Now notice right after the 1000 yrs are finished satan is released.
What does satan do upon being released?

He goes to deceive the nations?

How can this be is the earth was destroyed and all are dead?

Revelation 20:7-9* And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,* And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Brasso
06-11-2012, 18:25
It's not a Milestone. I've know this for years. It's fairly plain teaching if you believe what you read instead of pre-millenial rapture theory.

This still doesn't mean there won't be people here. I feel like a broken record, but Ezekiel has issues with your ideas.

Vic Hays
06-11-2012, 21:30
Now notice right after the 1000 yrs are finished satan is released.
What does satan do upon being released?

He goes to deceive the nations?

How can this be is the earth was destroyed and all are dead?

Revelation 20:7-9* And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,* And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Most of your texts refer to the Gospel going out.

The second resurrection occurs after the 1000 years. That is where the people come from for satan to decieve.

As far as Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron, that means breaking them to pieces.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Daniel 2 shows that the kingdoms of this earth do not co-exist
with God's kingdom.

Daniel 2:34 You saw till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image on his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

FCoulter
06-12-2012, 03:46
Most of your texts refer to the Gospel going out.

The second resurrection occurs after the 1000 years. That is where the people come from for satan to decieve.

As far as Jesus ruling the nations with a rod of iron, that means breaking them to pieces.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Daniel 2 shows that the kingdoms of this earth do not co-exist
with God's kingdom.

Daniel 2:34 You saw till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image on his feet that were of iron and clay, and broke them to pieces.
2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

“Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. (Isa 24:6)

If some survive, how can Christ’s return be compared to the day of Noah, where the flood destroyed all (Matthew 24:37-38)? With little doubt there will be great destruction upon the earth, and all those who have rejected Christ will perish, as in the days of the flood. Yet the Lord made a promise in Genesis 8:21 “Neither will I again smite anymore every thing living, as I have done.”

What the Lord was emphasizing when he was comparing his return to the day of Noah was the suddenness that it came upon the people, and how it caught them unaware.* He ended his discourse by saying: Matthew 24:42-44 “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Brasso
06-12-2012, 07:46
The kingdoms of the earth are gone because during the Millenium, only Israel is left. They will be entire nations now, instead of tribes.

Vic Hays
06-12-2012, 08:30
“Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. (Isa 24:6)

If some survive, how can Christ’s return be compared to the day of Noah, where the flood destroyed all (Matthew 24:37-38)? With little doubt there will be great destruction upon the earth, and all those who have rejected Christ will perish, as in the days of the flood. Yet the Lord made a promise in Genesis 8:21 “Neither will I again smite anymore every thing living, as I have done.”

What the Lord was emphasizing when he was comparing his return to the day of Noah was the suddenness that it came upon the people, and how it caught them unaware.* He ended his discourse by saying: Matthew 24:42-44 “Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

The "few men left" refers to those saved from the earth not those left on earth otherwise it would have said few men left on the earth. Some are taken away (destroyed) and some are left (those that go with the Lord to the place He has prepared). The curse has devoured the earth.

There is no further need of teaching or spreading the Gospel because it will have gone to the whole world. Every person will have made their decision.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

FCoulter
06-12-2012, 12:16
The "few men left" refers to those saved from the earth not those left on earth otherwise it would have said few men left on the earth. Some are taken away (destroyed) and some are left (those that go with the Lord to the place He has prepared). The curse has devoured the earth.

There is no further need of teaching or spreading the Gospel because it will have gone to the whole world. Every person will have made their decision.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Nope they are left on earth,you should have read the whole chapter.

Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. (Isa. 24:1)

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. (Isa. 24:6)

Vic Hays
06-12-2012, 13:37
Nope they are left on earth,you should have read the whole chapter.

Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. (Isa. 24:1)

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate; therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left. (Isa. 24:6)

You can't have it both ways Fred. Few men is not the nations of Gog and Magog.

This text also does not say that there will be men left on earth nor the time period of 1000 years.

You have yet to show a third class of people at the second coming.

FCoulter
06-12-2012, 15:07
You can't have it both ways Fred. Few men is not the nations of Gog and Magog.

This text also does not say that there will be men left on earth nor the time period of 1000 years.

You have yet to show a third class of people at the second coming.

Ok have it your way, inore the real prophets and keep believing a false prophet.

Just because EW had a vision that the everyone on e earth was dead is nuts...she has been proven wrong how many times?

Vic Hays
06-12-2012, 15:57
Ok have it your way, inore the real prophets and keep believing a false prophet.

Just because EW had a vision that the everyone on e earth was dead is nuts...she has been proven wrong how many times?

An inference which directly denies other scripture has not made your point.

Accusations surely do not make your point.

How many times has Ellen White been proven wrong? None as far as I can tell. Accusations based on biased and incomplete evidence are just satans way of influencing people away from the Truth.

Do you still continue Armstrong's philosophy that the gospel of the kingdom is only about the kingdom and not about the sacrifice of Jesus?

FCoulter
06-12-2012, 16:50
An inference which directly denies other scripture has not made your point.

Accusations surely do not make your point.

How many times has Ellen White been proven wrong? None as far as I can tell.


[Moderator] Are our sins blotted out when we repent?

ELLEN ANSWERS: [NO]* “The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins [which did not begin until 1844-GC88 485.2] is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. . . . When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be.* {FLB 213.2}

[Moderator] We now pose the same question to the Bible.

THE BIBLE: [YES]* Acts 3:19** Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, (RSV)

Acts 2:38* And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


[Moderator] DOES GOD KEEP RECORDS OF FORGIVEN SINS?

ELLEN:* [YES] “All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be [sometime after 1844] blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. . . .* {FLB 212.3}

THE BIBLE: Hebrews 8:12* For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


http://www.babylonforsaken.com/investigative.html

Vic this can go on all day long. If you would like more from numerous sources I will gladly provide.

Vic Hays
06-12-2012, 22:08
[Moderator] Are our sins blotted out when we repent?

ELLEN ANSWERS: [NO]* “The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins [which did not begin until 1844-GC88 485.2] is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord. Since the dead are to be judged out of the things written in the books, it is impossible that the sins of men should be blotted out until after the judgment at which their cases are to be investigated. . . . When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be.* {FLB 213.2}


Vic this can go on all day long. If you would like more from numerous sources I will gladly provide.

I could post some of the hate sites running you down also. Do you think that would be productive?

Did you actually read what she wrote here?

This is an example of a false accusation. There is a record of sins.

The Old sanctuary service is a type of the heavenly sanctuary. At this time Jesus is high priest according to the book of Hebrews.

The earthly sanctuary had a yearly cycle of service. The heavenly sanctuary has only one cycle of service.

Sins were transferred to the earthly sanctuary until the day of atonement when the sins were put onto the scapegoat. So, yes, there was a record of those sins all year until the day of atonement. That day will be reached one day in the heavenly sanctuary. The Bible has this to say about it:

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The Bible says that Jesus bore the sins of many. After the anti typical day of atonement He will no longer be bearing them. So, until that time there is a record of sins.

Brasso
06-14-2012, 09:07
You have yet to address the myriad prophecies about the eventual size of Israel. These are not conditional. The promise to Abraham is not conditional. You are breaking Scripture. You are wrong.

Vic Hays
06-14-2012, 11:50
You have yet to address the myriad prophecies about the eventual size of Israel. These are not conditional. The promise to Abraham is not conditional. You are breaking Scripture. You are wrong.

Of course the promises are conditional. Here is the condition.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Rejecting Christ is the same as rejecting the promises. Jesus said so Himself.

John 8:43 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
8:47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Brasso
06-15-2012, 09:06
It is NOT conditional.

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

He said He will do it, and He will do it.

Vic Hays
06-15-2012, 11:15
It is NOT conditional.



God has to do it your way? :upeyes:

Are there no conditions to God's promises?

Here is a condition, seeking God's kingdom and righteousness (the condition) and God will take care of you (the promise).

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Now lets see if the patriarchs had conditions to the promise. Take Jacob for example:

Genesis 32:9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham, and God of my father Isaac, O Jehovah, who saidst unto me, Return unto thy country, and to thy kindred, and I will do thee good:

There it is, condition and promise. You will find this everywhere in the Bible. There are no promises without conditions.

Brasso
06-16-2012, 08:13
Abraham was called the Father of the Faithful because he believed the promise God made to him. There were no conditions in the covenant God made with Abraham. Abraham didn't even participate in the covenant process. The smoking oven and burning brand performed the ceremony of the pieces. It was an unconditional promise. A promise that has yet to be fulfilled. It WILL happen.



Eze 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
Eze 20:34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
Eze 20:35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
Eze 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
Eze 20:38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 20:39 As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord GOD; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.
Eze 20:40 For in mine holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them in the land, serve me: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the firstfruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.
Eze 20:41 I will accept you with your sweet savour, when I bring you out from the people, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you before the heathen.
Eze 20:42 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for the which I lifted up mine hand to give it to your fathers.
Eze 20:43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.
Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 08:33
Abraham was called the Father of the Faithful because he believed the promise God made to him. There were no conditions in the covenant God made with Abraham.

There were, however, very much conditions made with Israel.

Leviticus 18:24-28, "<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>“‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3276AF))'></sup> became defiled. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3276AG))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>Even the land was defiled; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3277AH))'></sup> so I punished it for its sin, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3277AI))'></sup> and the land vomited out its inhabitants. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3277AJ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>But you must keep my decrees and my laws. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3278AK))'></sup> The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>And if you defile the land, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3280AL))'></sup> it will vomit you out <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-3280AM))'></sup> as it vomited out the nations that were before you."

Ezekiel 23:
"The word of the Lord came to me: <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>“Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother. <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21010A))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>They became prostitutes in Egypt, <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21011B))'></sup> engaging in prostitution <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21011C))'></sup> from their youth. <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21011D))'></sup> In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21011E))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem. <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21012F))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>“Oholah engaged in prostitution while she was still mine; and she lusted after her lovers, the Assyrians <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21013G))'></sup> —warriors <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21013H))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen. <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after. <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21015I))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21016J))'></sup> when during her youth men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her. <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21016K))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>“Therefore I delivered her into the hands <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21017L))'></sup> of her lovers, <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21017M))'></sup> the Assyrians, for whom she lusted. <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21017N))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>They stripped <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21018O))'></sup> her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword. She became a byword among women, <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21018P))'></sup> and punishment was inflicted <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21018Q))'></sup> on her. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21018R))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>“Her sister Oholibah saw this, <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21019S))'></sup> yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister. <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21019T))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>She too lusted after the Assyrians—governors and commanders, warriors in full dress, mounted horsemen, all handsome young men. <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21020U))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>I saw that she too defiled herself; both of them went the same way. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21021V))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>“But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21022W))'></sup> figures of Chaldeans<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21022a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21022a)]</sup> portrayed in red, <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21022X))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>with belts <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21023Y))'></sup> around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea.<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21023b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21023b)]</sup> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21024Z))'></sup> to them in Chaldea. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21024AA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>Then the Babylonians <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21025AB))'></sup> came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21025AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her naked body, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21026AD))'></sup> I turned away <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21026AE))'></sup> from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21026AF))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. <sup class="versenum">21 </sup>So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21029c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21029c)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21029AG))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>“Therefore, Oholibah, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will stir up your lovers <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21030AH))'></sup> against you, those you turned away from in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21030AI))'></sup> — <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>the Babylonians <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21031AJ))'></sup> and all the Chaldeans, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21031AK))'></sup> the men of Pekod <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21031AL))'></sup> and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, all of them governors and commanders, chariot officers and men of high rank, all mounted on horses. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21031AM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">24 </sup>They will come against you with weapons,<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-21032d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-21032d)]</sup> chariots and wagons <sup class="crossreference" value='(AN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21032AN))'></sup> and with a throng of people; they will take up positions against you on every side with large and small shields and with helmets. I will turn you over to them for punishment, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21032AO))'></sup> and they will punish you according to their standards. <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>I will direct my jealous anger <sup class="crossreference" value='(AP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21033AP))'></sup> against you, and they will deal with you in fury. They will cut off your noses and your ears, and those of you who are left will fall by the sword. They will take away your sons and daughters, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21033AQ))'></sup> and those of you who are left will be consumed by fire. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21033AR))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>They will also strip <sup class="crossreference" value='(AS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21034AS))'></sup> you of your clothes and take your fine jewelry. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21034AT))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>So I will put a stop <sup class="crossreference" value='(AU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21035AU))'></sup> to the lewdness and prostitution you began in Egypt. You will not look on these things with longing or remember Egypt anymore.

<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>“For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to deliver you into the hands <sup class="crossreference" value='(AV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21036AV))'></sup> of those you hate, to those you turned away from in disgust. <sup class="versenum">29 </sup>They will deal with you in hatred and take away everything you have worked for. They will leave you stark naked, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21037AW))'></sup> and the shame of your prostitution will be exposed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21037AX))'></sup> Your lewdness <sup class="crossreference" value='(AY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21037AY))'></sup> and promiscuity <sup class="crossreference" value='(AZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21037AZ))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">30 </sup>have brought this on you, because you lusted after the nations and defiled yourself with their idols. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21038BA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">31 </sup>You have gone the way of your sister; so I will put her cup <sup class="crossreference" value='(BB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21039BB))'></sup> into your hand. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21039BC))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">32 </sup>“This is what the Sovereign Lord says:
“You will drink your sister’s cup,
a cup large and deep;
it will bring scorn and derision, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21040BD))'></sup>
for it holds so much. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21040BE))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">33 </sup>You will be filled with drunkenness and sorrow,
the cup of ruin and desolation,
the cup of your sister Samaria. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21041BF))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">34 </sup>You will drink it <sup class="crossreference" value='(BG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21042BG))'></sup> and drain it dry
and chew on its pieces—
and you will tear your breasts.

I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21042BH))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">35 </sup>“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Since you have forgotten <sup class="crossreference" value='(BI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21043BI))'></sup> me and turned your back on me, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21043BJ))'></sup> you must bear <sup class="crossreference" value='(BK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21043BK))'></sup> the consequences of your lewdness and prostitution.”

<sup class="versenum">36 </sup>The Lord said to me: “Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Then confront <sup class="crossreference" value='(BL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21044BL))'></sup> them with their detestable practices, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21044BM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">37 </sup>for they have committed adultery and blood is on their hands. They committed adultery with their idols; they even sacrificed their children, whom they bore to me, as food for them. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21045BN))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">38 </sup>They have also done this to me: At that same time they defiled my sanctuary <sup class="crossreference" value='(BO (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21046BO))'></sup> and desecrated my Sabbaths. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BP (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21046BP))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">39 </sup>On the very day they sacrificed their children to their idols, they entered my sanctuary and desecrated <sup class="crossreference" value='(BQ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21047BQ))'></sup> it. That is what they did in my house. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BR (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21047BR))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">40 </sup>“They even sent messengers for men who came from far away, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BS (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21048BS))'></sup> and when they arrived you bathed yourself for them, applied eye makeup <sup class="crossreference" value='(BT (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21048BT))'></sup> and put on your jewelry. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BU (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21048BU))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">41 </sup>You sat on an elegant couch, <sup class="crossreference" value='(BV (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21049BV))'></sup> with a table <sup class="crossreference" value='(BW (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21049BW))'></sup> spread before it on which you had placed the incense <sup class="crossreference" value='(BX (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21049BX))'></sup> and olive oil that belonged to me. <sup class="crossreference" value='(BY (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21049BY))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">42 </sup>“The noise of a carefree <sup class="crossreference" value='(BZ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21050BZ))'></sup> crowd was around her; drunkards <sup class="crossreference" value='(CA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21050CA))'></sup> were brought from the desert along with men from the rabble, and they put bracelets <sup class="crossreference" value='(CB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21050CB))'></sup> on the wrists of the woman and her sister and beautiful crowns on their heads. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21050CC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">43 </sup>Then I said about the one worn out by adultery, ‘Now let them use her as a prostitute, <sup class="crossreference" value='(CD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21051CD))'></sup> for that is all she is.’ <sup class="versenum">44 </sup>And they slept with her. As men sleep with a prostitute, so they slept with those lewd women, Oholah and Oholibah. <sup class="versenum">45 </sup>But righteous judges will sentence them to the punishment of women who commit adultery and shed blood, <sup class="crossreference" value='(CE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21053CE))'></sup> because they are adulterous and blood is on their hands. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21053CF))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">46 </sup>“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Bring a mob <sup class="crossreference" value='(CG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21054CG))'></sup> against them and give them over to terror and plunder. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21054CH))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">47 </sup>The mob will stone them and cut them down with their swords; they will kill their sons and daughters <sup class="crossreference" value='(CI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21055CI))'></sup> and burn <sup class="crossreference" value='(CJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21055CJ))'></sup> down their houses. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21055CK))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">48 </sup>“So I will put an end <sup class="crossreference" value='(CL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21056CL))'></sup> to lewdness in the land, that all women may take warning and not imitate you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CM (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21056CM))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">49 </sup>You will suffer the penalty for your lewdness and bear the consequences of your sins of idolatry. <sup class="crossreference" value='(CN (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-21057CN))'></sup> Then you will know that I am the Sovereign Lord.”

Brasso
06-16-2012, 14:54
Has nothing to do with the promise to Abraham. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

Israel WILL inhabit the Land. The Land WILL encompass the boundries given to Abraham.

Unless you dispute God's promise to Abraham it will happen. There will be a Millenial Reign on this earth, from this Jerusalem, by the people of Israel.

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 15:41
Has nothing to do with the promise to Abraham. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

Israel WILL inhabit the Land. The Land WILL encompass the boundries given to Abraham.

Unless you dispute God's promise to Abraham it will happen. There will be a Millenial Reign on this earth, from this Jerusalem, by the people of Israel.

Here is the promise of Abraham:

Galations 3:15-22, "<sup> </sup>Brothers and sisters, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29118Z))'></sup> let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29119AA))'></sup> Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”<sup class="footnote" value='[i (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29119i)]'>[i (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29119i)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29119AB))'></sup> meaning one person, who is Christ. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29120AC))'></sup> later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. <sup class="versenum">18</sup>For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29121AD))'></sup> but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29122AE))'></sup> until the Seed <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29122AF))'></sup> to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29122AG))'></sup> and entrusted to a mediator. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29122AH))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>A mediator, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29123AI))'></sup> however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

<sup class="versenum">21</sup>Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! <sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29124AJ))'></sup> For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AK (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29124AK))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">22 </sup>But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AL (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29125AL))'></sup> so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe."

Brasso
06-16-2012, 15:58
What in the world does all that have to do with the promise to Abraham? All you have managed to say is that the Levitical Priesthood doesn't annul the promise to Abraham. Great. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The promise to Abraham is NOT conditional. It WILL happen. Why do keep trying to go against Scripture just to uphold the view of a false prophet?

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 16:22
What in the world does all that have to do with the promise to Abraham? All you have managed to say is that the Levitical Priesthood doesn't annul the promise to Abraham. Great. Has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The promise to Abraham is NOT conditional. It WILL happen. Why do keep trying to go against Scripture just to uphold the view of a false prophet?

It did happen. The seed and promise of Abraham is Jesus.

Brasso
06-16-2012, 19:15
It did happen. The seed and promise of Abraham is Jesus.

When has this happened?

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

It hasn't. But it WILL. And according to what you just posted, it will happen with Messiah as the King. Thankyou.

Vic Hays
06-16-2012, 20:05
When has this happened?

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

It hasn't. But it WILL. And according to what you just posted, it will happen with Messiah as the King. Thankyou.

After the Millinium Jesus prepares a place for the Holy City.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

After Jesus has prepared a place for the Holy City it descends from heaven. The lost receive their final judgment. The earth is remade new.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

FCoulter
06-16-2012, 20:56
After the Millinium Jesus prepares a place for the Holy City.

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

After Jesus has prepared a place for the Holy City it descends from heaven. The lost receive their final judgment. The earth is remade new.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Vic, what Biblical proof do you have proving Zech 14 is after the millennum?



[This verse is not speaking of something that happens after the thousand year reign, if you continue reading the chapter you will see that there are still plagues that fall on the rebellious inhabitants of the earth. Some people will point out that the bible says “We meet him in the air, not on the mount”. And no doubt we do meet him in the air, but we do not remain in the air forever, and never does the bible say we stay in the air for one thousand years! But rather as we have seen, we reign on earth with Christ for those thousand years]

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 20:59
When has this happened?

Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.

It hasn't. But it WILL. And according to what you just posted, it will happen with Messiah as the King. Thankyou.

If you are looking for the promise of the Messiah, you missed Him a little over 2k years ago.

FCoulter
06-16-2012, 20:59
Isaiah 24:21-23 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here it is promised that the Lord will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem, at his coming he will punish the wicked and place them in prison, that is the pit, or the grave; where they are reserved until the day of judgment to be punished, which comes 1000 years later (see 2nd Peter 2:9, Revelation 20:5).

FCoulter
06-16-2012, 21:00
If you are looking for the promise of the Messiah, you missed Him a little over 2k years ago.
Yours came in the mid 1800's

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 21:01
Vic, what Biblical proof do you have proving Zech 14 is after the millennum?



[This verse is not speaking of something that happens after the thousand year reign, if you continue reading the chapter you will see that there are still plagues that fall on the rebellious inhabitants of the earth. Some people will point out that the bible says “We meet him in the air, not on the mount”. And no doubt we do meet him in the air, but we do not remain in the air forever, and never does the bible say we stay in the air for one thousand years! But rather as we have seen, we reign on earth with Christ for those thousand years]

Where did the bold text come from?

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 21:02
Isaiah 24:21-23 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here it is promised that the Lord will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem, at his coming he will punish the wicked and place them in prison, that is the pit, or the grave; where they are reserved until the day of judgment to be punished, which comes 1000 years later (see 2nd Peter 2:9, Revelation 20:5).

These are clearly not your words. Where did you get them from?

Kingarthurhk
06-16-2012, 21:03
Yours came in the mid 1800's

That doesn't even make sense.

WhiskeyUnicorn
06-16-2012, 21:06
Religion...as bad as politics

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

Vic Hays
06-16-2012, 21:06
Vic, what Biblical proof do you have proving Zech 14 is after the millennum?



[This verse is not speaking of something that happens after the thousand year reign, if you continue reading the chapter you will see that there are still plagues that fall on the rebellious inhabitants of the earth. Some people will point out that the bible says “We meet him in the air, not on the mount”. And no doubt we do meet him in the air, but we do not remain in the air forever, and never does the bible say we stay in the air for one thousand years! But rather as we have seen, we reign on earth with Christ for those thousand years]

Jesus does not touch the earth at His second coming. The saints meet Him in the air and go to the heavenly Jerusalem.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father’ house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And, no we have not seen that the saints rule on the earth during the thousand years. What we have seen is that all who do not go with Jesus in the first resurrection are included in the second resurrection which does not occur until the end of the 1000 years when they are resurrected to judgment.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus only speaks of two classes, the saved and the lost.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

And, no, no one survives the second coming without Christ. They all die because they are killed by Jesus. There are only two feasts, the wedding supper of the Lamb and the feast of the birds.

Revelation 19:21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 06:11
Jesus does not touch the earth at His second coming. The saints meet Him in the air and go to the heavenly Jerusalem.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father’ house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

I Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

And, no we have not seen that the saints rule on the earth during the thousand years. What we have seen is that all who do not go with Jesus in the first resurrection are included in the second resurrection which does not occur until the end of the 1000 years when they are resurrected to judgment.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Jesus only speaks of two classes, the saved and the lost.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

And, no, no one survives the second coming without Christ. They all die because they are killed by Jesus. There are only two feasts, the wedding supper of the Lamb and the feast of the birds.

Revelation 19:21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.



So, let me get this straight. You actually believe Jesus comes 3 times?


Is tha Biblical?

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 06:14
These are clearly not your words. Where did you get them from?
I am sorry simple simon, since I have already posted from this same site I didnt think I needed to keep posting it. However for your simple needs here you go jr.
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/millennium.html





Now how about you resond to what what actually was posted.

Vic Hays
06-17-2012, 07:37
So, let me get this straight. You actually believe Jesus comes 3 times?


Is tha Biblical?

Did I quote from anything other than the Bible.

Where is yours?

You have not proven your point from the Bible.

Denial and opinion is not proof.

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 08:21
Did I quote from anything other than the Bible.

Where is yours?

You have not proven your point from the Bible.

Denial and opinion is not proof.

You quoted from the Bible then injected your EW teaching on it.


So I ask, please give Biblical support that this period in Zech. Is post millennium?

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 08:44
I am sorry simple simon, since I have already posted from this same site I didnt think I needed to keep posting it. However for your simple needs here you go jr.
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/millennium.html





Now how about you resond to what what actually was posted.

So, Fred propheied all these things. I guess, given what scripture has to say that would make him a false prophet.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 08:45
You quoted from the Bible then injected your EW teaching on it.


So I ask, please give Biblical support that this period in Zech. Is post millennium?

And all you do is repost prophesies by Fred Coulter. Why is that?

Brasso
06-17-2012, 09:04
His second coming is depicted in typical Hebrew fashion. Just as He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, the entire city went out to meet Him. This is how a King was greeted. All the people would meet Him from outside the city gate and all the way in.

In like manner, His people will greet Him in the air, and then come with Him to earth. There are no passages anywhere in the Bible that say we will go to heaven.

Furthermore, after the 1000 years the earth will be cleansed with a heat so great the elements melt away. The earth as we know it will no longer exist. No seas. No mountains. The boundries given to Abraham and Ezekiel will be meaningless.

Obviously you prefer to cling to false teaching despite the fact that almost 1/4 of the Bible speaks directly of His coming Kingdom. So I won't attempt to persuade you any longer.

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 09:11
So, Fred propheied all these things. I guess, given what scripture has to say that would make him a false prophet.
To stand as an accuser you must have proof.

First prove "Fred" made any prophecy of himeself.


2nd, to be a false prophet one must fail the test of a prophet according to scripture, prove this?


I have shown I can do both concerning EW and you got a sore butt. I am sorry you have been mislead by her teachings.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 09:21
His second coming is depicted in typical Hebrew fashion. Just as He rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, the entire city went out to meet Him. This is how a King was greeted. All the people would meet Him from outside the city gate and all the way in.

In like manner, His people will greet Him in the air, and then come with Him to earth. There are no passages anywhere in the Bible that say we will go to heaven.

Furthermore, after the 1000 years the earth will be cleansed with a heat so great the elements melt away. The earth as we know it will no longer exist. No seas. No mountains. The boundries given to Abraham and Ezekiel will be meaningless.

Obviously you prefer to cling to false teaching despite the fact that almost 1/4 of the Bible speaks directly of His coming Kingdom. So I won't attempt to persuade you any longer.

Why bother to meet Him in the air then? Why not wait for the New Jerusalem and go out with palm branches declaring Hosanna?

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 09:23
To stand as an accuser you must have proof.

First prove "Fred" made any prophecy of himeself.


2nd, to be a false prophet one must fail the test of a prophet according to scripture, prove this?


I have shown I can do both concerning EW and you got a sore butt. I am sorry you have been mislead by her teachings.

Certainly, he is prophesying, through your copy pastes elements that are not found is scripture and he has prophesied that transhumanism will happen before the return of Christ. So, you are using his predictions, which cannot be cross checked by scripture and his teaching alone rather than what scripture says. That is dangerous ground.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 09:45
To stand as an accuser you must have proof.

First prove "Fred" made any prophecy of himeself.


2nd, to be a false prophet one must fail the test of a prophet according to scripture, prove this?


I have shown I can do both concerning EW and you got a sore butt. I am sorry you have been mislead by her teachings.

I can tell you to stop following one man until I am blue in the face. I can warn you until I am out of air. But, there is one man I can point you to. Sometimes, songs reach out better:

Believer - Kutless (w/ Lyrics) **NEW** - YouTube

I don't know who taught you Jesus was this angry spiteful figure. But, He is not. He would warn, and be plain, but He came here to save us not to condemn us.

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 09:51
Certainly, he is prophesying, through your copy pastes elements that are not found is scripture and he has prophesied that transhumanism will happen before the return of Christ. So, you are using his predictions, which cannot be cross checked by scripture and his teaching alone rather than what scripture says. That is dangerous ground.
See here is where you lack understanding, "Fred" has always when projecting his person ideas ALWAYS rings a cow bell stating this is just his opinion, not a prophecy.

You really need to grow up and do research before making false accusations.


Also you claime he was a false prophet, can you prove anything he said hasnt happened?




I am sorry EW was such a confused soul, and even more sorry there are people such as you that buy into her confusion, after she HAS been proven a FALSE Prophet.

Vic Hays
06-17-2012, 10:37
In like manner, His people will greet Him in the air, and then come with Him to earth. There are no passages anywhere in the Bible that say we will go to heaven.


Where is Jesus going to prepare a place for us? In His Father's house. Where is that?


John 14:2 In my Father’ house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 10:50
Where is Jesus going to prepare a place for us? In His Father's house. Where is that?


John 14:2 In my Father’ house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
Ok show me 1 verse that says during the millennium the saints will reign with Christ. A. From heaven, or B. from those many mansions.

If you like I will show you where the saints and Christ actually reign from. That is if you actually accept scripture and not man made doctrine.

If you cant then you are preaching a false doctrine. I realize this is common for Whitites, but come on.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 11:22
Ok show me 1 verse that says during the millennium the saints will reign with Christ. A. From heaven, or B. from those many mansions.

If you like I will show you where the saints and Christ actually reign from. That is if you actually accept scripture and not man made doctrine.

If you cant then you are preaching a false doctrine. I realize this is common for Whitites, but come on.

Whatever happens, if Fred says you need to move with him to a ranch in New Mexico, don't do it!

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 11:38
Whatever happens, if Fred says you need to move with him to a ranch in New Mexico, don't do it!
See more foolishness from you.

Why do you even respond its obvious you cant think on your own and provide sound answers.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 12:16
See more foolishness from you.

Why do you even respond its obvious you cant think on your own and provide sound answers.

I am concerned about you, now that Jesus has shown me that I must love you. You have angry responses, think Jesus is a hateful angry God, and follow only the writtings of but one man.

I exhort you to the following:

1 Corinthians 10:1-17, "<sup> </sup>I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28374a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28374a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28374T))'></sup> in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28374U))'></sup> but that you be perfectly united <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28374V))'></sup> in mind and thought. <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28375W))'></sup> have informed me that there are quarrels among you. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376X))'></sup>another, “I follow Apollos”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376Y))'></sup>another, “I follow Cephas<sup class="footnote" value='[b (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28376b)]'>[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28376b)]</sup>”; <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376Z))'></sup>still another, “I follow Christ.”
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28377AA))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28378AB))'></sup> and Gaius, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28378AC))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>(Yes, I also baptized the household <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28380AD))'></sup> of Stephanas; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28380AE))'></sup> beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For Christ did not send me to baptize, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28381AF))'></sup> but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28381AG))'></sup> and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

From everything I have seen, you say, "I follow Fred!"

Are you able to think for yourself and do you not have an actual bible (not one written by Fred)?

Have anyone of us copied and pasted White for you? Or have I only answered you from scripture. I give you scripture, you give me Fred.

1 Timothy 4:1-15, "The Spirit <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29749A))'></sup> clearly says that in later times <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29749B))'></sup> some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29749C))'></sup> and things taught by demons. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29750D))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>They forbid people to marry <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751E))'></sup> and order them to abstain from certain foods, <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751F))'></sup> which God created <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751G))'></sup> to be received with thanksgiving <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751H))'></sup> by those who believe and who know the truth. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>For everything God created is good, <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29752I))'></sup> and nothing is to be rejected <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29752J))'></sup> if it is received with thanksgiving, <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>because it is consecrated by the word of God <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29753K))'></sup> and prayer.
<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,<sup class="footnote" value='[a (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29754a)]'>[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29754a)]</sup> you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29754L))'></sup> and of the good teaching that you have followed. <sup class="crossreference" value='(M (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29754M))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; <sup class="crossreference" value='(N (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29755N))'></sup> rather, train yourself to be godly. <sup class="crossreference" value='(O (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29755O))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, <sup class="crossreference" value='(P (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29756P))'></sup> holding promise for both the present life <sup class="crossreference" value='(Q (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29756Q))'></sup> and the life to come. <sup class="crossreference" value='(R (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29756R))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>This is a trustworthy saying <sup class="crossreference" value='(S (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29757S))'></sup> that deserves full acceptance. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, <sup class="crossreference" value='(T (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29758T))'></sup> who is the Savior of all people, <sup class="crossreference" value='(U (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29758U))'></sup> and especially of those who believe.

<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Command and teach these things. <sup class="crossreference" value='(V (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29759V))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Don’t let anyone look down on you <sup class="crossreference" value='(W (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29760W))'></sup> because you are young, but set an example <sup class="crossreference" value='(X (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29760X))'></sup> for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith <sup class="crossreference" value='(Y (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29760Y))'></sup> and in purity. <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Until I come, <sup class="crossreference" value='(Z (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29761Z))'></sup> devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, <sup class="crossreference" value='(AA (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29761AA))'></sup> to preaching and to teaching. <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy <sup class="crossreference" value='(AB (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29762AB))'></sup> when the body of elders <sup class="crossreference" value='(AC (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29762AC))'></sup> laid their hands on you. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AD (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29762AD))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29764AE))'></sup> both yourself and your hearers."

1 Timothy 4:1-5, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value='(A (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29872A))'></sup> and in view of his appearing <sup class="crossreference" value='(B (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29872B))'></sup> and his kingdom, I give you this charge: <sup class="crossreference" value='(C (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29872C))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Preach <sup class="crossreference" value='(D (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873D))'></sup> the word; <sup class="crossreference" value='(E (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873E))'></sup> be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke <sup class="crossreference" value='(F (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873F))'></sup> and encourage <sup class="crossreference" value='(G (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873G))'></sup> —with great patience and careful instruction. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. <sup class="crossreference" value='(H (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29874H))'></sup> Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. <sup class="crossreference" value='(I (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29874I))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. <sup class="crossreference" value='(J (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29875J))'></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, <sup class="crossreference" value='(K (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29876K))'></sup> do the work of an evangelist, <sup class="crossreference" value='(L (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29876L))'></sup> discharge all the duties of your ministry."

FCoulter
06-17-2012, 12:24
I am concerned about you, now that Jesus has shown me that I must love you. You have angry responses, think Jesus is a hateful angry God, and follow only the writtings of but one man.

I exhort you to the following:

1 Corinthians 10:1-17, "<sup> </sup>I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28374a&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>a</a>]">[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28374a)]</sup> <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28374T&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>T</a>)"></sup> in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28374U&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>U</a>)"></sup> but that you be perfectly united <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28374V&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>V</a>)"></sup> in mind and thought. <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28375W&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>W</a>)"></sup> have informed me that there are quarrels among you. <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376X&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>X</a>)"></sup>another, “I follow Apollos”; <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376Y&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>Y</a>)"></sup>another, “I follow Cephas<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-28376b&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>b</a>]">[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+1&version=NIV#fen-NIV-28376b)]</sup>”; <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28376Z&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>Z</a>)"></sup>still another, “I follow Christ.”
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28377AA&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AA</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28378AB&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AB</a>)"></sup> and Gaius, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28378AC&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AC</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>(Yes, I also baptized the household <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28380AD&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AD</a>)"></sup> of Stephanas; <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28380AE&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AE</a>)"></sup> beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>For Christ did not send me to baptize, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28381AF&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AF</a>)"></sup> but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-28381AG&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AG</a>)"></sup> and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power."

From everything I have seen, you say, "I follow Fred!"

Are you able to think for yourself and do you not have an actual bible (not one written by Fred)?

Have anyone of us copied and pasted White for you? Or have I only answered you from scripture. I give you scripture, you give me Fred.

1 Timothy 4:1-15, "The Spirit <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29749A&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>A</a>)"></sup> clearly says that in later times <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29749B&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>B</a>)"></sup> some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29749C&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>C</a>)"></sup> and things taught by demons. <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29750D&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>D</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>They forbid people to marry <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751E&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>E</a>)"></sup> and order them to abstain from certain foods, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751F&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>F</a>)"></sup> which God created <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751G&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>G</a>)"></sup> to be received with thanksgiving <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29751H&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>H</a>)"></sup> by those who believe and who know the truth. <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>For everything God created is good, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29752I&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>I</a>)"></sup> and nothing is to be rejected <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29752J&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>J</a>)"></sup> if it is received with thanksgiving, <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>because it is consecrated by the word of God <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29753K&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>K</a>)"></sup> and prayer.
<sup class="versenum">6 </sup>If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-29754a&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>a</a>]">[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+4&version=NIV#fen-NIV-29754a)]</sup> you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29754L&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>L</a>)"></sup> and of the good teaching that you have followed. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29754M&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>M</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29755N&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>N</a>)"></sup> rather, train yourself to be godly. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29755O&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>O</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29756P&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>P</a>)"></sup> holding promise for both the present life <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29756Q&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>Q</a>)"></sup> and the life to come. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29756R&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>R</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>This is a trustworthy saying <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29757S&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>S</a>)"></sup> that deserves full acceptance. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29758T&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>T</a>)"></sup> who is the Savior of all people, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29758U&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>U</a>)"></sup> and especially of those who believe.

<sup class="versenum">11 </sup>Command and teach these things. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29759V&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>V</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Don’t let anyone look down on you <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29760W&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>W</a>)"></sup> because you are young, but set an example <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29760X&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>X</a>)"></sup> for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29760Y&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>Y</a>)"></sup> and in purity. <sup class="versenum">13 </sup>Until I come, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29761Z&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>Z</a>)"></sup> devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29761AA&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AA</a>)"></sup> to preaching and to teaching. <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29762AB&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AB</a>)"></sup> when the body of elders <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29762AC&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AC</a>)"></sup> laid their hands on you. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29762AD&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AD</a>)"></sup>

<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29764AE&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>AE</a>)"></sup> both yourself and your hearers."

1 Timothy 4:1-5, "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29872A&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>A</a>)"></sup> and in view of his appearing <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29872B&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>B</a>)"></sup> and his kingdom, I give you this charge: <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29872C&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>C</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>Preach <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873D&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>D</a>)"></sup> the word; <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873E&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>E</a>)"></sup> be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873F&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>F</a>)"></sup> and encourage <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29873G&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>G</a>)"></sup> —with great patience and careful instruction. <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29874H&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>H</a>)"></sup> Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29874I&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>I</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29875J&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>J</a>)"></sup> <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29876K&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>K</a>)"></sup> do the work of an evangelist, <sup class="crossreference" value="(<a href=&quot;http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-29876L&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot;>L</a>)"></sup> discharge all the duties of your ministry."

Come on get real, "Fred" never wrote a Bible he merely translated the new test greek into a modern translation.

You really need to do research before you speak.


If you want to say you never copy from sda websites go ahead and lie. Its not me you have to answer too.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 13:09
Come on get real, "Fred" never wrote a Bible he merely translated the new test greek into a modern translation.

You really need to do research before you speak.


If you want to say you never copy from sda websites go ahead and lie. Its not me you have to answer too.

I am off to do Father's Day activities. It is an activity that requires being old enough to shave before you can get there.:supergrin:

Vic Hays
06-17-2012, 15:10
Ok show me 1 verse that says during the millennium the saints will reign with Christ. A. From heaven, or B. from those many mansions.

If you like I will show you where the saints and Christ actually reign from. That is if you actually accept scripture and not man made doctrine.

If you cant then you are preaching a false doctrine. I realize this is common for Whitites, but come on.

Do you think that the place prepared by Jesus in His Father's house is for an overnight visit? It is ours forever.

The City eventually comes back to this earth after the Millennium.

You must show the scripture that says during the Millennium the saints reign on the earth.

If you can't, by your own judgment you are preaching false doctrine.

Brasso
06-17-2012, 18:06
John 14:2 In my Father’ house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Figure of speech. The Jerusalem above is also called our mother.

You are taking a couple of passages from the N.T., that are figurative in nature, and pitting them against the hundreds of other passages that speak directly to the Kingdom that will be on this earth. Ezekiel, which you might as well rip out of your Bible because you seem to think it's all "conditional" and will never happen. Most of the Book of Hosea is also made meaningless. Micah, don't need it. Jeremiah, obsolete. It's almost funny.

Kingarthurhk
06-17-2012, 18:21
John 14:2 In my Father’ house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

Figure of speech. The Jerusalem above is also called our mother.

You are taking a couple of passages from the N.T., that are figurative in nature, and pitting them against the hundreds of other passages that speak directly to the Kingdom that will be on this earth. Ezekiel, which you might as well rip out of your Bible because you seem to think it's all "conditional" and will never happen. Most of the Book of Hosea is also made meaningless. Micah, don't need it. Jeremiah, obsolete. It's almost funny.

Romans 3:4, "Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

FCoulter
06-18-2012, 06:43
Do you think that the place prepared by Jesus in His Father's house is for an overnight visit? It is ours forever.

The City eventually comes back to this earth after the Millennium.

You must show the scripture that says during the Millennium the saints reign on the earth.

If you can't, by your own judgment you are preaching false doctrine.
I realize this is hard for you Vic, But I ask please pay attenion to what I post and you will have the answers to what you ask.

The mansions that Jesus prepared are presumably inside the beautiful city, the New Jerusalem, that will descend upon the new earth at the end of the Millennium. As the New Jerusalem descends upon the new earth, John hears a voice say:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev. 21:2-3)

John describes the New Jerusalem as a "bride adorned for her husband", indicating a pristine and "virgin" city, not one that the saints are about to re-occupy after having already lived there for 1,000 years! If the saints had already been living up in heaven in their mansions in the New Jerusalem for 1,000 years, this could hardly be the special event John is describing.

This verse also announces a new era for mankind. The Father will be physically with them. They will live together in the same city. Think this through: This announcement, that God will now be dwelling with men, would not make any sense if the righteous had already been dwelling with God in heaven for the past 1,000 years!

FCoulter
06-18-2012, 06:57
The City eventually comes back to this earth after the Millennium.

.

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God. (Job 19:25,26)

Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)

What was the "manner" of Jesus being taken up into heaven?

Mountain ==> Air ==> Clouds ==> Heaven


He was standing upon a "mountain" (Matt. 28:16)
He ascended up into the "air" [atmosphere] (Acts 1:9)
He went up into the "clouds" (Acts 1:9)
He disappeared from sight and ascended into "heaven" (Acts 1:11)
Think this through. If He is going to return "in like manner", then what is the reverse of this process?

Heaven ==> Clouds ==> Air ==> Mountain


He descends from "heaven" (1 Thes. 4:16)
He appears in the "clouds" (1 Thes. 4:17)
He descends through the "air" [atmosphere] (1 Thes. 4:17)
He will stand upon a "mountain" (Zech 14:4)
The Bible clearly teaches that in the "day of the Lord",

his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives... (Zech. 14:1,4)


Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)

Where will they reign?

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Rev. 5:10)

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh ... Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations... And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem ... And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem... And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. ... (Zec 14:1,3,8,9)

Adventistis claim that since the Father's throne is in heaven, the saints will be occupying the throne in heaven, not upon earth (Rev. 15:2). However, Rev. 20:6 says we will be reigning with Christ. Christ's throne is not in heaven, for He sits on the right hand of the throne of God, taking the position of a prince. The Bible teaches that Christ's throne is this earth:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of his father David and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His Kingdom there shall be no end" (Luke 1:32, 33).

Jesus is coming back to inherit David’s throne, as king over the Jews and all those who have been grafted in during the Christian era. That is an earthly throne. Notice how God promises a king will reign on the earth:

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch [a descendent from David], and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth." (Jeremiah 23:5).

Isaiah 11 describes the coming king who will slay the wicked and reign over the earth during an era of peace, when even the animals will be at peace:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him... But with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth and He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked ... The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. ... (Isaiah 11:1,2,4,6)


Now Vic, I understand EW wasnt able to unstand or doubt she eveer read the OT. However the TRUE prophets of God wrote about what actually is going to happen.

Now the choice is yours either contiue to believe a lie, or repent and embrace the truth God delivered.

Vic Hays
06-18-2012, 10:48
I realize this is hard for you Vic, But I ask please pay attenion to what I post and you will have the answers to what you ask.

The mansions that Jesus prepared are presumably inside the beautiful city, the New Jerusalem, that will descend upon the new earth at the end of the Millennium. As the New Jerusalem descends upon the new earth, John hears a voice say:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Rev. 21:2-3)

John describes the New Jerusalem as a "bride adorned for her husband", indicating a pristine and "virgin" city, not one that the saints are about to re-occupy after having already lived there for 1,000 years! If the saints had already been living up in heaven in their mansions in the New Jerusalem for 1,000 years, this could hardly be the special event John is describing.

This verse also announces a new era for mankind. The Father will be physically with them. They will live together in the same city. Think this through: This announcement, that God will now be dwelling with men, would not make any sense if the righteous had already been dwelling with God in heaven for the past 1,000 years!

So this is what you give me instead of a text that says the saints reign on the earth for 1000 years?

Nice philosophy Frederic, but wrong answer. :upeyes:

Vic Hays
06-18-2012, 11:04
Adventistis claim that since the Father's throne is in heaven, the saints will be occupying the throne in heaven, not upon earth (Rev. 15:2). However, Rev. 20:6 says we will be reigning with Christ. Christ's throne is not in heaven, for He sits on the right hand of the throne of God, taking the position of a prince. The Bible teaches that Christ's throne is this earth:

"He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of his father David and He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of His Kingdom there shall be no end" (Luke 1:32, 33).


Isaiah 11 describes the coming king who will slay the wicked and reign over the earth during an era of peace, when even the animals will be at peace:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him... But with righteousness shall He judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth and He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked ... The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. ... (Isaiah 11:1,2,4,6)


Now Vic, I understand EW wasnt able to unstand or doubt she eveer read the OT. However the TRUE prophets of God wrote about what actually is going to happen.

Now the choice is yours either contiue to believe a lie, or repent and embrace the truth God delivered.

Fred, sorry you can't see your contradictory statements.

Look at the text you posted and repent yourself.

"He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked ."

This happens at the start of the millenium.

I already showed that this text is fulfilled at the second coming when the birds eat the flesh of the lost.

I have already shown that there are only two classes at the second coming. You insist on a third even though there is no hint of this in the Bible'

By your own words you will be judged.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

BTW Ellen White did not establish the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church so you are bearing false witness there also. The doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church were arrived at through careful Bible study and prayer.

FCoulter
06-18-2012, 12:12
Fred, sorry you can't see your contradictory statements.

Look at the text you posted and repent yourself.

"He shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips shall He slay the wicked ."

This happens at the start of the millenium.

I already showed that this text is fulfilled at the second coming when the birds eat the flesh of the lost.

I have already shown that there are only two classes at the second coming. You insist on a third even though there is no hint of this in the Bible'

By your own words you will be judged.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

BTW Ellen White did not establish the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church so you are bearing false witness there also. The doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church were arrived at through careful Bible study and prayer.

Vic over and over I have given scripture tha answers everything you state here. You quote only have verses and ignore whole verses because it contradicts your teachings.


As for adventists picking and choosing from EW works I agree they do this alot. Read this.
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/picking.html

EW was very confused, she was borderline nuts, she claimed to be much more than a prophet, yet she knew nothing from the OT she Said in vision she saw enoch on another planet.




She stated Noah taught enoch, however Enoch was translated 70yrs before noah was born...see how nuts she was?

Vic Hays
06-18-2012, 13:52
Vic over and over I have given scripture tha answers everything you state here. You quote only have verses and ignore whole verses because it contradicts your teachings.


As for adventists picking and choosing from EW works I agree they do this alot. Read this.
http://www.babylonforsaken.com/picking.html

EW was very confused, she was borderline nuts, she claimed to be much more than a prophet, yet she knew nothing from the OT she Said in vision she saw enoch on another planet.


She stated Noah taught enoch, however Enoch was translated 70yrs before noah was born...see how nuts she was?

Do you suppose Jesus will miss a few when He comes again?

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the middle of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together to the supper of the great God;
19:18 That you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat on the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

You seem so desperate and you seem to be obsessed with EW. I have only been quoting from the Bible.

Fred, what I have been ignoring are the ravings of someone who is desperate to prove a point that is not true from a Biblical perspective. You have lost any credibility you might have had when you began posting here.

FCoulter
06-18-2012, 15:15
Do you suppose Jesus will miss a few when He comes again?

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the middle of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together to the supper of the great God;
19:18 That you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat on the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

You seem so desperate and you seem to be obsessed with EW. I have only been quoting from the Bible.

Fred, what I have been ignoring are the ravings of someone who is desperate to prove a point that is not true from a Biblical perspective. You have lost any credibility you might have had when you began posting here.
Yes Victor you quote from scripture, the problem is that you skip chapter to chapter and use a verse that is pre mill. Then add a post mill. Verse and try to make the different chapter prove your point.

Problem is you never seem to do it.




What you ignore is about 90% of questions asked of you by not only me but everyone.




This makes sense though since adventists only have about 10% truth.

Vic Hays
06-18-2012, 16:00
Yes Victor you quote from scripture, the problem is that you skip chapter to chapter and use a verse that is pre mill. Then add a post mill. Verse and try to make the different chapter prove your point.

Problem is you never seem to do it.

What you ignore is about 90% of questions asked of you by not only me but everyone.



You are projecting now.

You continue to ignore the question for a text that says there are 3 classes at the second coming. The Bible only speaks of two.

When does Jesus slay men with the sword of His mouth and their flesh eaten by the birds? After the millennium the lost are burned up as they receive the second death.

You have not provided the text for the saints ruling over the earth during the millennium. So once again your own words judge you.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.

FCoulter
06-19-2012, 06:29
You are projecting now.

You continue to ignore the question for a text that says there are 3 classes at the second coming. The Bible only speaks of two.

When does Jesus slay men with the sword of His mouth and their flesh eaten by the birds? After the millennium the lost are burned up as they receive the second death.

You have not provided the text for the saints ruling over the earth during the millennium. So once again your own words judge you.

Matthew 12:37 For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned.
Victor, I am not projecting at all.

Do you have an ear, if so as the Bible says let them hear.


The Bible is specific how long the saint REIGN with Christ.


Revelation 20:4,6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years



Now where is the place these Saints REIGN?


Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



Do you Victor reject Jesus own words given to John?

Brasso
06-19-2012, 06:55
It's impossible to read any of the Prophets and come to any other conclusion but that there will be an earthly kingdom. Unless of course you are able to string together enough out of context pearls to render them all meaningless, conditional, what-if's.

I would love to post some passages, but there are just too many. Just read the Prophets. Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Micah, Amos. It's all there.

Kingarthurhk
06-19-2012, 07:11
It's impossible to read any of the Prophets and come to any other conclusion but that there will be an earthly kingdom. Unless of course you are able to string together enough out of context pearls to render them all meaningless, conditional, what-if's.

I would love to post some passages, but there are just too many. Just read the Prophets. Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Hosea, Micah, Amos. It's all there.

I think the disciples had the same problem when they kept trying to make Jesus a poltical figure to overthrow Roman opression. They missed the point, as you do.

FCoulter
06-19-2012, 07:18
I think the disciples had the same problem when they kept trying to make Jesus a poltical figure to overthrow Roman opression. They missed the point, as you do.
Thank you for admitting that you think the disciples and TRUE prophets were wrong.

Carry on to the white estate.

FCoulter
06-19-2012, 07:40
BTW Ellen White did not establish the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church so you are bearing false witness there also. The doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church were arrived at through careful Bible study and prayer.
Lets let dear Ellen G White answer this in her own words. She states if you reject the testimonies(her writings)

#1 If you reject the testimonies God is slighted and insulted 5T 234-5
#2 God is rejected by rejecting the testimonies 5T 623, 688
#3 Christ is rejected by rejecting the testimonies 5T 688
#4 The Spirit is insulted by rejecting the testimonies 5T 64
#5 God rejects the rejecters of the testimonies 5T 72
#6 Those who neglect the testimonies will have agony during time of trouble 1SM 40
#7 Blindness and fearful deception results from hatred for the testimonies 3T 255, 266
#8 The testimonies cannot be rejected or lightly treated without peril of infinite loss LS 324-5
#9 Efforts to lessen force of testimonies must be met in judgment 5T 19, 677
#10 God's blessing withdrawn when the testimonies are not heeded 5T 719
#11 Rejecting the instruction given in testimonies results in failure 1SM 41
#12 Lack of faith in testimonies results in backsliding 5T 675
#13 Disregarding the testimonies leads to a lack of purity and devotion 5T 217
#14 Loss of confidence in testimonies results in drifting away from Bible truth 5T 98, 674
#15 Loss of faith in the testimonies leads to doubt of Scriptures 4T 211
#16 Loss of faith in the testimonies leads to skepticism concerning vital points of faith 4T 211
#17 Neglect of testimonies will be felt in time of trouble 1SM 40
#18 It is dangerous to openly reject the testimonies 5T 680
#19 There is peril in not heeding the testimonies 5T 436
#20 Persons rejecting the testimonies cannot see or hear aright 4aSG 37
#21 Rejection of testimonies shuts out light of heaven 5T 660
#22 Rejection of testimonies shuts out Spirit from soul 1SM 46
#23 Those who despise the testimonies are left in blindness 3T 257-60; 5T 682
#24 Unbelief of testimonies shuts away light from God's people 3T 255; 5T 674
#25 Rejection of warnings found in testimonies result in blindness and self-deception 5T 682
#26 The wrong attitude toward testimonies insults the Spirit 1SM 27

Kingarthurhk
06-19-2012, 07:55
Thank you for admitting that you think the disciples and TRUE prophets were wrong.

Carry on to the white estate.

You make it hard to love you, Pharisee. At any rate, they disciples were seeking to put Christ in a secular authority over Rome.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/29670.htm

Not by and Adventist, not by a Fredist. It is plain that the disciples were desperate for a secular Messiah as you are.

FCoulter
06-19-2012, 08:47
You make it hard to love you, Pharisee. At any rate, they disciples were seeking to put Christ in a secular authority over Rome.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/29670.htm

Not by and Adventist, not by a Fredist. It is plain that the disciples were desperate for a secular Messiah as you are.
I expected no less from you.

Kingarthurhk
06-19-2012, 08:54
I expected no less from you.

God tests me quite a bit. From now on I think I will call you Test.

Vic Hays
06-19-2012, 08:55
Victor, I am not projecting at all.

Do you have an ear, if so as the Bible says let them hear.


The Bible is specific how long the saint REIGN with Christ.


Revelation 20:4,6 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years



Now where is the place these Saints REIGN?


Revelation 5:9-10 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



Do you Victor reject Jesus own words given to John?

Fred, You produced two texts. You infer that they they take place at the same time. One says that the saints will reign with Christ for a thousand years before the second resurrection. This text does not say where that reign will be.

Of course eventually the saints will reign on the earth after the Holy City comes down from heaven. This text does not say the saints reign on earth during the thousand years.

What the Bible does say is that after the thousand years the nations that satan is allowed to deceive attack the Holy City and fire comes down from heaven and devours them.

What the Bible does not say is that these wicked are reigned over on earth by the saints during the thousand years. The Bible says they are dead. They are resurrected to final judgment.

Malachi 4:3 And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, said the LORD of hosts.

You are the one rejecting the words given to John.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat on the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It really is simple. The lost are killed when Christ comes the second time and eaten by the birds. The lost are raised to judgment and then they are burned up. Just simple Bible. These are two different events.

Brasso
06-19-2012, 11:34
I think the disciples had the same problem when they kept trying to make Jesus a poltical figure to overthrow Roman opression. They missed the point, as you do.


Someone wake up all these dead Bible guys and tell them they are false prophets. Fred, quit being a Pharisee. And while you're waking up the other prophets to tell them they're wrong, tell Paul he wasn't supposed to be a Pharisee either. It all ended in 1844.

Kingarthurhk
06-19-2012, 12:24
Someone wake up all these dead Bible guys and tell them they are false prophets. Fred, quit being a Pharisee. And while you're waking up the other prophets to tell them they're wrong, tell Paul he wasn't supposed to be a Pharisee either. It all ended in 1844.

What are you blathering about? Jesus had to remind the disciples that he was here to die, something they could not accept. They clearly hoped he was the Messiah to overthrow Roman occupation. They soon learned otherwise.

This is not difficult concept. You aren't reading a book that was "translated" and "ordered" to fit a particular religious leader's agenda, I can understand your confusion. You aren't a Fredist too, are you?

Brasso
06-19-2012, 14:16
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


You're calling us pharisees, yet Messiah agreed with 99% of the pharisees teachings. He told the people to listen to what the pharisees said about the Torah. Paul was a pharisee. Just saying, you don't know what you're talking about.

And you don't know what you're talking about concerning the Kingdom either. You are blatantly ignoring entire Books of the Bible.

I could quote them, but you don't care.

So neither do I.

Brasso
06-19-2012, 15:10
Is this conditional?

Isa 11:1 And a Rod shall come forth from the stump of Yishai, and a Sprout from his roots shall bear fruit.
Isa 11:2 The Spirit of יהוה shall rest upon Him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of יהוה,
Isa 11:3 and shall make Him breathe in the fear of יהוה. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears.
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with straightness for the meek ones of the earth, and shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and slay the wrong with the breath of His lips.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and trustworthiness the girdle of His waist.
Isa 11:6 And a wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and a leopard lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child leads them.
Isa 11:7 And cow and bear shall feed, their young ones lie down together, and a lion eat straw like an ox.
Isa 11:8 And the nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the adder’s den.
Isa 11:9 They do no evil nor destroy in all My set-apart mountain, for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of יהוה as the waters cover the sea1. Footnote: 1Hab. 2:14.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a Root of Yishai, standing as a banner to the people. Unto Him the gentiles1 shall seek, and His rest shall be esteem. Footnote: 1Or nations.
Isa 11:11 And it shall be in that day that יהוה sets His hand again a second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left, from Ashshur and from Mitsrayim, from Pathros and from Kush, from Ěylam and from Shinʽar, from Ḥamath and from the islands of the sea.
Isa 11:12 And He shall raise a banner for the nations, and gather the outcasts of Yisra’ĕl, and assemble the dispersed of Yehuḏah from the four corners of the earth.
Isa 11:13 And the envy of Ephrayim shall turn aside, and the adversaries of Yehuḏah be cut off. Ephrayim shall not envy Yehuḏah, and Yehuḏah not trouble Ephrayim.
Isa 11:14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west; together they plunder the people of the east, their hand stretching forth on Eḏom and Mo’aḇ, and the children of Ammon shall be subject to them.
Isa 11:15 And יהוה shall put under the ban the tongue of the Sea of Mitsrayim, and He shall wave His hand over the River with the might of His Spirit, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and shall cause men to tread it in sandals.
Isa 11:16 And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, those left from Ashshur, as it was for Yisra’ĕl in the day when he came up from the land of Mitsrayim.

Tilley
06-19-2012, 18:34
God tests me quite a bit. From now on I think I will call you Pest.

You had a typo...fixed it for ya! :wavey:

Vic Hays
06-19-2012, 19:03
Is this conditional?


Isa 11:4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with straightness for the meek ones of the earth, and shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and slay the wrong with the breath of His lips.



This is conditional, but it was conditioned on the success of Christ laying down His life for us.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat on the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Kingarthurhk
06-19-2012, 19:44
You had a typo...fixed it for ya! :wavey:

:rofl:That struck my funny bone. I needed that. Thank you.

Brasso
06-19-2012, 20:05
I give up.

FCoulter
06-20-2012, 05:22
I give up.
WHen dealing with children, sometimes its best to just let them play. Their tune will change one day.

Look at the dim side, how sweet that the sdventists and the catholics are joking together...they might as well since it is mother,daughter bonding.

Vic Hays
06-20-2012, 08:44
WHen dealing with children, sometimes its best to just let them play. Their tune will change one day.

Look at the dim side, how sweet that the sdventists and the catholics are joking together...they might as well since it is mother,daughter bonding.


Which do you hate the most? :wow:

Jesus spoke of perfection. Your words show you have far to go. You seem to be lacking even the most fundamental Christian qualities.

Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Kingarthurhk
06-20-2012, 17:19
WHen dealing with children, sometimes its best to just let them play. Their tune will change one day.

Look at the dim side, how sweet that the sdventists and the catholics are joking together...they might as well since it is mother,daughter bonding.

I guess you'd be really put out by one of my good friends at work. He is Catholic. And frankly, I find him to be more of a quiet Christian man than I am. In life, despite my best efforts, I am son of thunder. He claims to be the same way, though he says he keeps it to himself.

I do know one thing, he emulates Christ more than I have seen from you.

Tilley
06-20-2012, 22:03
WHen dealing with children, sometimes its best to just let them play. Their tune will change one day.

Look at the dim side, how sweet that the sdventists and the catholics are joking together...they might as well since it is mother,daughter bonding.

I joke about you to see what you are all about. I saw your website and your responses here. I will continue to tweak your nose from time to time because I like to tease people in a good natured way.

The truth is I see you as a person so obsessed with your religious views as to being a zealot. You have no relationship with Christ because you are more concerned with pounding people over the head with your interpretation of the bible than allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you. I don't see any joy or love in what you write, but bitterness and hatred. You are like an old woman who poisons stray cats to watch them die.

Throw away your religious philosophys which are contrary to the love of Christ...


...and for Pete's sake...leave those cats alone!!!

FCoulter
06-21-2012, 06:00
Which do you hate the most? :wow:

Jesus spoke of perfection. Your words show you have far to go. You seem to be lacking even the most fundamental Christian qualities.

Matthew 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
You have me all wrong Victor, I hate no one, however I hate religion. Modern religion has a lawless grace that is a heresy to God.


I dont just salute the brethern only, I pray daily for the rest of you, twice a day for those like king.

Brasso
06-21-2012, 07:20
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity (lawlessness, without Torah)



If they don't believe Moses, what makes you think they will believe Messiah? I used to think that if you just show people the facts they will say, "Oh yeah". But traditions are just as strong today as back then. Messiah would be hung back up on a stake today by these same "saved by grace" christians calling us Pharisees. They'd call Him a legalist too.

Vic Hays
06-21-2012, 07:42
You have me all wrong Victor, I hate no one, however I hate religion. Modern religion has a lawless grace that is a heresy to God.


I dont just salute the brethern only, I pray daily for the rest of you, twice a day for those like king.

There is a dimension that you seemed to have missed.

God is not looking for perfectionism (straining out the gnats) or obsessive compulsive behavior from us. He is looking for those who appreciate the more important aspects of the law.

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
23:24 You blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Brasso
06-21-2012, 07:49
And yet, you not only leave the other undone, but teach that it's a sin to keep them.


Shame on you.


I really wish that you had an historical understanding of what that passage regarding gnats and camels was referring to. Hindsight is not always 20/20. Especially when you make it up as you go. But for kicks, I'll give you a history lesson.

The above saying is in regards to honoring your parents. At that time, it was taught that it was more important to pay the tithe at the Temple than to take financial care of your parents. So the greedy, would leave their parents in squalor by citing the need to give to the Temple. They abrogated a greater commandment for a smaller one because of greed. They should have been doing both. This is one of the main reasons for the saying. It is not, as Christians gleefully attempt to insinuate, that God is all about "love man, love" in place of obedience. Grace is not at odds with Torah.

FCoulter
06-21-2012, 08:54
There is a dimension that you seemed to have missed.

God is not looking for perfectionism (straining out the gnats) or obsessive compulsive behavior from us. He is looking for those who appreciate the more important aspects of the law.

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
23:24 You blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Yet you ignore commands God stated are FOREVER.
You cant pick and choose which of Gods laws to keep to fit the EW doctrines.


This is the conversation tha will take place when you and fellow whities stand before Jesus.


Matt.7:<sup class="versenum" style="font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; ">21 </sup>Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
<sup class="versenum" style="font-family: 'Charis SIL'; font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; ">22 </sup>Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
<sup class="versenum" style="font-family: 'Charis SIL'; font-size: 0.75em; line-height: normal; font-weight: bold; vertical-align: top; ">23 </sup>And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ( lawlessness)

Vic Hays
06-21-2012, 12:45
Yet you ignore commands God stated are FOREVER.
You cant pick and choose which of Gods laws to keep to fit the EW doctrines.


"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. ]

Have you prophesied in Jesus name and performed all kinds of works and yet do not know Him?

FCoulter
06-21-2012, 17:18
Have you prophesied in Jesus name and performed all kinds of works and yet do not know Him?
Not at all,if you think I have then by all means provide proof.

I obey ALL His laws and commands I dont teach a lawless grace.

Kingarthurhk
06-21-2012, 18:32
Not at all,if you think I have then by all means provide proof.

I obey ALL His laws and commands I dont teach a lawless grace.

Really?

Luke 10:25-28, "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25389AF))'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">26 </sup>“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

<sup class="versenum">27 </sup>He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’<sup class="footnote" value='[c (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-25391c)]'>[c (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-25391c)]</sup>; <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25391AG))'></sup> and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’<sup class="footnote" value='[d (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#fen-NIV-25391d)]'>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+10&version=NIV#fen-NIV-25391d)]</sup>” <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/#cen-NIV-25391AH))'></sup>

<sup class="versenum">28 </sup>“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

Both you and I clearly need to work on element number two. I want to live, I suspect you do too. Jesus made it pretty clear we must do that in order to live.

Vic Hays
06-21-2012, 23:04
Not at all,if you think I have then by all means provide proof.

I obey ALL His laws and commands I dont teach a lawless grace.

You really didn't read the text did you?

Jesus didn't say " obey Me", He said, "know Me."

"then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This is relationship not slavery.

John 8:35 Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever: the son abides for ever.
8:36 If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free.

FCoulter
06-22-2012, 04:56
You really didn't read the text did you?

Jesus didn't say " obey Me", He said, "know Me."

"then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

This is relationship not slavery.

John 8:35 Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever: the son abides for ever.
8:36 If therefore the Son shall set you free, ye shall be really free.
You didnt read it all either I see.

Vic, what does iniquity mean?