10mm 200gr lead powder [Archive] - Glock Talk

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gofastman
05-28-2012, 11:53
I posted this over on the castboolets forum, but didn't get any responses, I figured I'd try here too.

I'd like to make up some range loads, I dont want them too hot, but definitely in 10mm territory, I'm thinking 1100-ish FPS

I have on hand:
Unique
Blue Dot
Longshot
Autocomp
AA#2

(Ill be getting some AA#9 soon, but im going to have to wait a few paychecks)

I know I could make anyone of them reach my goal, but is one of these powders decidedly more "lead friendly" than the others?
Id like them to be as clean as possible, and pleasant to shoot.

dm1906
05-28-2012, 14:07
Sounds like a good range/target load. Here's some book loads, mixed in with some personal loads:

1.260-1.265 C.O.L., firm taper (heavy lead will creep if you don't)

Standard primer, unless otherwise stated. If you use magnum primers, start the load over and work up. Don't just switch primers on the same load. Bad things can happen in a hurry.

As always, start about 15% under and work your way up. These are MY results. YMMV Watch for indications of excessive pressure, blah...blah...blah...

Unique (about the fastest powder you'll want to use with 200's)
6.2 gr. A little smoky when slower. Mostly clean at the upper end. 1025 (~6.0 gr) seems to be the most accurate, and cleanest. Really too fast for heavy lead, but can work out if you aren't asking too much, and take the time to dial it in. Very forgiving, up to a point. NO magnum primers! Most economical for target loads.

BD
9.5 gr. Nice load. About 1145 in a ~5" bbl. Add about 60 FPS with CCI350, with slightly happy brass with OEM bbl (very minor, if at all).

LS
8.0 gr. Less accurate. I didn't care much for this one.

AC
~7.0 gr. You'll have to work with this one. I couldn't get it to nail down. It was fairly dirty and smoky, so I just gave up. It didn't matter which primer I used, or the weather (didn't change or improve anything). Normally a good powder, but didn't seem to like 200 gr. lead TC's. I've heard of some folks who like this powder. Maybe I gave up too early. You might have better luck.

AA2
Too fast. You can't get there from here.
Great powder for 135 gr. target loads. Clean and economical (close to 231, but a little faster).

AA9
11.9 gr. Near 100% case fill. Standard primer. 11.2 gr. with CCI350 for similar velocity. Not very economical for targets, and not comparatively impressive.


And, just in case you get the notion (my favorite):

2400
11.6 gr. Near 100% case fill. Very nice. 1150-1220 (CCI 300-350). You can drop it a bit, but it starts getting dirty below 11.2 gr.
12 gr. Slightly compressed (~105%). CCI350. Pushing SAAMI pressure a bit. Tough green or blue lube recommended (or hot Alox dip, yuk). Not very economical, but a lot of fun. Not recommended for night. More loads, but shouldn't be discussed in the presence of women and children.

Heavier spring recommended for the warmer loads and heavier bullets. Not required, but will improve accuracy and ease up on the frame battering.

gofastman
05-28-2012, 14:20
thanks for the reply, Ill give Unique a whirl, I really dont like that powder (nor 2400)
but my experience with them is limited to 44spl/mag

Auto comp is a strange powder indeed, Its dirty, smokey, and stinky unless you push it, once you do get the pressures up, its great.
In my non profesional opinion, their data is WAY, WAY to light, I simply dont believe their pressure numbers.
one of my favorite loads for 165gr FMJ's is 9grs of AutoComp, and I have gone a lot higher than that too, just for experimental purposes.

dm1906
05-28-2012, 15:11
2400 is premo .44M stuff. Not so much with .44spl. I use mostly Unique for the spl's and smaller rounds, and 2400 or 296 for the mags. I have 6.5" and 8.5" barrels, so I can use more of the gas.

I'm working on 180 gr. loads for 3 handgun lengths and a 20-24" rifle (all need to work with the same load). Most powders run out of poop in the long barrel (BD barely makes it, with a heavy load), so I have to develop slow powder loads. What I'll probably have to do is choose the most load I can get with the handguns, and adjust the rifle barrel length to maximize efficiency. It'll never achieve 38-40 velocities, but I'm inching up close. I'd like to use 200+ gr. bullets, but they eat up too much case capacity. The energy trade-off isn't worth it. I may end up doing rifle/revolver only loads, and save the autos for the loads that work well with them. Then there's the no-lead necessity....Oy! Lofty goals, I fear. I use mostly BD for 10mm handgun rounds. Very versatile, and I always have some. I fiddle with others now and then, but always end up back here. A lot of folks like 800X, but too fast for me and I don't use it for anything else. I don't use much AA9, and hardly ever any more. It just doesn't perform for the magnum loads I do, compared to 2400/296. Or, maybe it's just me. I dunno. I'll try [almost] anything once, if I think it might work.

Anyway, find something that works best for you, and stick with it. What works for me won't work for everyone.

dm1906
05-28-2012, 15:50
Also keep in mind....
Faster (hotter) powders with heavier lead bullets (non-gas check) results in increased chances of leading. I shoot a LOT of lead bullets in nearly every caliber/velocity, and leading is not tolerated. If I get leading, I fix it. It usually requires slowing down (cooling off) the powder, or changing lube formulas or methods. When around transonic velocities and higher, it may require both. Gas checks are one answer, but an easy (and expensive) way around an otherwise workable solution. IMO, they should be limited to the fastest of fast handgun rounds (454+) and rifles. I've always been able to work it out, so far. COW is not an option with limited case capacity, but may work with fast powders filling less than 85%.

Yondering
05-28-2012, 18:45
Both of you guys, what 200gr lead bullets are you talking about? I'm guessing 200gr TC commercial cast stuff, since that's the most common? Obviously different bullet designs can make a difference in what powder works best.

dm1906, something's odd about your AA9 and 2400 loads. The AA9 load is a bit low, but the 2400 load, in my experience, is pretty compressed, and gives much lower velocity that what you list. I've never gotten great velocity from 2400 in the 10mm, but AA9 is one of the top performers, both in velocity and accuracy, especially with heavy 200-220gr bullets. Usually it runs out of case capacity before reaching max pressure though, depending on the bullet design.

Gofastman, if your bullet length will permit it, get some AA9 and work up to about 13gr. (If you're using a long bullet, you'll run out of case capacity before you get there.) I'm using 13.2gr with my 220gr bullet for 1300 fps from my 6.6" barrel, but that bullet is designed to maximize case capacity, and acts more like a 200gr bullet. I could only get about 1100fps using the same bullet with 2400, before running out of case capacity.

Short answer - AA9 is the most lead-friendly heavy bullet powder I've found for the 10mm. If you're having leading issues that you can't resolve with lead hardness and lube adjustments (you have that TAC#1 lube, not much room for improvement there), I may have an easy plain base gas check solution for you soon; I found a source for some specially made, pretty cheap too, but am waiting on the order.

dm1906
05-28-2012, 22:29
Well, If you were right, or I were right, we wouldn't need all these powders. You stopped short on 2400, perhaps I did on AA9. If our objectives were the same, we'd probably end up in the same park. 2400 gave me the best results, AA9 didn't. They are similar in burn rate and flame temp, but not interchangeable. Probably a LOT closer than some comparisons I've seen. I may revisit at some time, but not now with what I'm working with.

The bullets were several. I tried many commercial hard cast varieties, but settled on my own cast. My alloy recipe. My lube recipe. It's a short TC (truncated cone) with a wide meplate, similar to a WFN, but with straight sides vs. the WFN radiused. It had a specific name, but I forget. I've abandoned the 200 gr cast bullets in favor of 180's. I've pretty much done the same for jacketed. I like heavy bullets, but they eat up too much case capacity, and there's just not much to work with in 10mm. The end result is less bullet energy (by a lot) in a slower bullet. The objective was a round suitable for serious hunting, that's practical and manageable in a handgun. The non-lead necessity changed all the rules.

Yondering
05-29-2012, 00:35
You stopped short on 2400, perhaps I did on AA9. If our objectives were the same, we'd probably end up in the same park. 2400 gave me the best results, AA9 didn't. They are similar in burn rate and flame temp, but not interchangeable..

I stopped with 2400 when I hit max case capacity and couldn't compress it any more without bullets backing out of the case. It is more bulky and slower than AA9; I've never been able to match AA9 velocity with 2400 in any 10mm load. Maybe your 2400 is different than mine? Are you using some really old powder? Mine is about 10 years old, but in the round plastic jug that Alliant powders are sold in now.

I do get decent accuracy with 2400, but generally 100-200 fps less than other powders.

dm1906
05-29-2012, 02:23
I stopped with 2400 when I hit max case capacity and couldn't compress it any more without bullets backing out of the case. It is more bulky and slower than AA9; I've never been able to match AA9 velocity with 2400 in any 10mm load. Maybe your 2400 is different than mine? Are you using some really old powder? Mine is about 10 years old, but in the round plastic jug that Alliant powders are sold in now.

I do get decent accuracy with 2400, but generally 100-200 fps less than other powders.

No, it was new, about 3 years ago. I've had to compress and pre-compress, almost to the point of making pellets (which works really well). My problem with AA9 was lack of performance and consistency, compressed or not. All my full power loads (within SAAMI pressure, or close) are slow powders at full case capacity or greater, which is where the consistency arrives. (you shouldn't be compressing powder more than very lightly with the bullet... compress the powder like you would seat a bullet) Free space kills consistency. If you have/had 10 year old powder, it may have been a factor. Alliant has made a lot of changes in the last few years, including taking BD off the menu for a lot of my previously favorite rounds. They were perfectly fine before. Who know what they've done with the others. Looking at old books compared to new, almost all of the mfg's list different powder charges with the same pressures. Were they lying then, or are they lying now? Or are they just guessing? When reliable bullet mfg tables are vastly different from the powder mfg's tables, it isn't worth trusting either of them when working on the edge. Any specialty load I do starts from scratch, and gets built from there, for that very reason.

OhioGlockMan
05-29-2012, 13:21
My favorite load with the Oregon Trail flat point 200 gr hard cast is 9.3 grains Blue Dot W a winchester WLP primer, 1.255 OAL and firm crimp. This does about 1225 in my 6 inch LW barrel, I would estimate around 1100 ish in the 5 or 4.6 inch. Just an FYI Oregon Trail discontinued this bullet (they have a flat point 180 now), but I have thousands of them stockpiled up and I would estimate this would give similar velocities in other hardcast 200 grainers

gofastman
05-29-2012, 20:45
Short answer - AA9 is the most lead-friendly heavy bullet powder I've found for the 10mm.
thanks, ill give AA#9 a try when I get around to picking some up.
I think I have to give Power Pistol a try, Im not sure how it will work with 10mm heavies, but I keep hearing great things about it
I'm going to have to work with Longshot a BD too, I really like both those powders!
BD is just plain fun, and LS is the 10mm heavyweight velocity champion for jacketed bullets, IMO

Yondering, this will be for that Lyman 401633 (http://www.montanabulletworks.com/images/p10mm_200_lym_trnbb_105x105.jpg) design

Jitterbug
05-30-2012, 07:40
I'm getting 1131 fps with the 200 gr. Bear Tooth Bullet over 8.2 gr. of 800x with a CCI-300 from my 4.25" Commander barrel, this was at about 7500+ foot elevation which no doubt helped the velocity a bit. I'd like to get an honest 1150 fps and figure I could with 8.4 gr. or so to get there...maybe.

I've fired about 150 of these loads with both the Double Tap 200 gr. WFNGC and the BTB without issue, and both are quite accurate and hit point of aim at 12.5 yards, I'm just not real comfortable with 800x and going over book with it, even if it's just slightly over, but have done so since so many on the forum have gone WAY beyond 8.2 grains with 200 grain bullets, mostly XTP's.

Next up is AA9 and I've been considering Longshot, I haven't considered using 2400 which I have a good supply of, if I can get an honest 1150 fps with the 4.25" barrel with decent accuracy I'll be happy. I wonder if N110 could get there with "book" loads. Robert had some interesting data with VV powders, but was over book IIRC.

Maybe a 180 gr-190 gr. WFN would be a better choice if someone made them to get the velocity up there.

I have a couple of 20 year old pounds of AA9 and Hercules 2400, in the .44 Mag 20.0 grains of the H2400 gave me 1284 fps from a 4" 629 with a 260 gr. BTB, 20.0 gr. of new A2400 gave me 1215 fps, so the old stuff was a tad warmer.

I haven't compared the new AA9 yet, but from the velocity I achieved with the old stuff I'm guessing it's warmer too.

Yondering
05-30-2012, 09:42
I'm getting 1131 fps with the 200 gr. Bear Tooth Bullet over 8.2 gr. of 800x with a CCI-300 from my 4.25" Commander barrel, this was at about 7500+ foot elevation which no doubt helped the velocity a bit. I'd like to get an honest 1150 fps and figure I could with 8.4 gr. or so to get there...maybe.



You should be able to hit 1200 fps with Blue Dot, and maybe Longshot and AA9.

BTW, compare your 200gr bullet length to a 200gr XTP (since there's lots of load data for those). If your bullet is the same length or shorter, you should be able to hit a little higher velocity than the XTP with the right loads, because of the reduced bore friction of lead.

Taterhead
05-30-2012, 19:15
Jitterbug

My experience is with the DT 200 WFNGC rather than Beartooth, but they are nearly identical in shape. In fact, Mike McNett told me that it was identical, FWIW.

8.5 grains of 800-X with a CCI 300 yielded 1150 average from my 4.6" Glock barrel. Brass expansion around the pressure ring is close to maxed out.

With 13.8 grains of A9 (the stuff made a few years ago in Belgium), average velocities surpass 1200 fps. CCI 350 for that. The brass looks less stressed with that load than did the 800-X load. I haven't re-tested with the powder that is now produced in the USA. It is a bit different, less lofty, and might run slower velocities from what I have seen in my limited chrony time. So... more to be discovered on that. Your batch of older A9 might be made in Israel? I need to re-test with the newer lots of A9 to see how much, if anything, has changed.

Long story short, A9 ran pretty well behind the WFNGC 200 grainer. I liked it better than the 800-X load.