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Paul7
05-30-2012, 20:05
Somalia is second only to North Korea as the world's worst persecutor of Christians. Somalis who are discovered to be Christians face almost certain death, not only in their own country but also in neighboring countries where many Somalis flee as refugees. "In Somalia, they kill you if they just find a piece of literature," said VOM's regional director.

For more than two decades, Somalia has suffered from civil war. Unsuccessful treaties and resolutions among various warring factions have rendered the nation a "failed state" in the eyes of the international community. Ninety-nine percent of the population is Sunni Muslim, and Christians are targeted by all of the factions fighting for control. The most dangerous of these groups is the militant Islamic group known as al-Shabab, which controls much of southern and central Somalia.

Al-Shabab, which means "The Youth" in Arabic, has sword to rid Somalia of Christians and impose its strict interpretation of Sharia law. In February 2012, al-Shabab leaders announced that the group had joined al-Qaeda.

Somalia's tiny community of Muslim-background believers (MBBs) is estimated at fewer than 200 people, and all are viewed as apostates by the Muslim majority. Every church building in the country has been destroyed during the civil war, so believers meet for fellowship in small home groups. When Christians are discovered by al-Shabab, they are sometimes beheaded on the spot, as occurred with a 17-year-old boy last year in Mogadishu. Al-Shabab agents have also murdered Christians after following them to refugee campls in Ethiopia and Kenya.

Voice of the Martyrs, June 2012

juggy4711
05-30-2012, 20:48
Not surprised when anything about Africa is bad, whether it be Somalia or any other country there. Africa is the most jacked up continent on the planet.

Paul7
05-30-2012, 21:00
Not surprised when anything about Africa is bad, whether it be Somalia or any other country there. Africa is the most jacked up continent on the planet.

Do you really not see the Muslim slant here? These crimes aren't happening all over Africa.

Gunhaver
05-30-2012, 21:55
Well, I'm an atheist. If they found my copy of "The God Delusion" I guess I'd be good to go. Nobody would call Dawkins Christian literature.

juggy4711
05-30-2012, 22:03
Do you really not see the Muslim slant here? These crimes aren't happening all over Africa.

Of course I saw it what is your point?. You have such a hard on for Islam you can't even discern when someone else realizes Islam is a problem. Check my posting history. You won't find me making excuses for the problems Islam has.

Could it be that all you remember is that I find Christianity to be ridiculous to believe in, get all butt hurt and decide I'm a Islamic apologist like you accuse atheists of being?

Find a nation in Africa where jacked up things are not happening. Yes Islam is a factor, doesn't make belief in Christianity any less absurd.

I'll concede that modern belief in Christianity is not a threat the way Islam is, but it in no way shape or form means that Christianity isn't a completely preposterous notion.

"My ridiculous belief in a religion is superior than some other ridiculous belief in a religion because my religion is more benign to the world". That's just plain weak.

Akil8290
05-30-2012, 23:34
Do you really not see the Muslim slant here? These crimes aren't happening all over Africa.

Yet Africa has what? 19, 20 of its countries that are majority Muslim and none of them operate like Somalia. Somalia is known for female circumcisions, murdering of Christians and piracy; all of which are un-Islamic. There is not Islamic justification for murdering ANYONE.

Its Somalia that's screwed up; not Islam.

void *
05-30-2012, 23:47
SNinety-nine percent of the population is Sunni Muslim, and Christians are targeted by all of the factions fighting for control.

Do you have a cite for that? I went looking, and I see a *lot* of al-Shabaab, to the point where googling 'somalia christians' I'm not seeing articles that *don't* mention al-Shabaab. (I'm not saying that al-Shabaab is the only faction doing so - I am saying that I am not finding support for 'all the factions do so', but lots of support for 'al-Shabaab does so')

English
05-31-2012, 03:17
Well, I'm an atheist. If they found my copy of "The God Delusion" I guess I'd be good to go. Nobody would call Dawkins Christian literature.

I am not sure if you are being ironic. Islam considers Atheists to be worse than Chistians. We would not last long before having our heads cut off with a long knife.

English

English
05-31-2012, 03:27
Do you really not see the Muslim slant here? These crimes aren't happening all over Africa.

These crimes are happening all over the world where there are Mulsims in enough numbers. All that varies is the rate at which murder, rape and disposession occure. In a large majority without government control they set out to eliminate any non-Muslim. With lower numbers they intimidate with individual or group murder, rape and arson as part of the process of driving non-Muslims out of those areas. With lower numbers still, as in Europe, they gather in their own communities where they demand to control with their own laws. outside those communities they rape, rob, burn cars attack anti-Muslim organisations (as they see them) such as newspapers, and use this diffuse intimidation as a means to gain concessions on the basis that they are a persecuted religious minority.

Incidentally, the "rebels" in Syria are siezing the chance to murder their non-Muslim neighbours. Assad is bad but they are probably worse.

We in the West just see the most dramatic examples of this process because the Media feed on drama and at the same time give extra allowance to Muslims because they are, guess what, a persecuted religious ethnic minority!!!

English

Gunhaver
05-31-2012, 05:07
I am not sure if you are being ironic. Islam considers Atheists to be worse than Chistians. We would not last long before having our heads cut off with a long knife.

English

I was kind of hoping Paul would point that out so I'd have him right where I want him. He likes to play the Christian martyr.

Paul7
05-31-2012, 12:36
Well, I'm an atheist. If they found my copy of "The God Delusion" I guess I'd be good to go. Nobody would call Dawkins Christian literature.

I wouldn't bet your life on that.

Paul7
05-31-2012, 12:38
Of course I saw it what is your point?. You have such a hard on for Islam you can't even discern when someone else realizes Islam is a problem. Check my posting history. You won't find me making excuses for the problems Islam has.

Could it be that all you remember is that I find Christianity to be ridiculous to believe in, get all butt hurt and decide I'm a Islamic apologist like you accuse atheists of being?

Find a nation in Africa where jacked up things are not happening.

There is tribalism in Africa, this on the other hand is religious cleansing as is found too often in the Muslim world.

I'll concede that modern belief in Christianity is not a threat the way Islam is,

Do you agree with this, Akil?

"My ridiculous belief in a religion is superior than some other ridiculous belief in a religion because my religion is more benign to the world". That's just plain weak.

This post wasn't about the truth of Christianity vs. Islam, but about the ongoing severe persecution of Christians by Islam that the MSM ignores.

Paul7
05-31-2012, 12:42
I was kind of hoping Paul would point that out so I'd have him right where I want him. He likes to play the Christian martyr.

I'm not being persecuted, lots of Christians are. It bothers me when anyone, Christian or atheist, gets this treatment. You, on the other hand, don't seem to have a problem as long as it's Christians getting beheaded.

Paul7
05-31-2012, 12:43
Yet Africa has what? 19, 20 of its countries that are majority Muslim and none of them operate like Somalia. Somalia is known for female circumcisions, murdering of Christians and piracy; all of which are un-Islamic. There is not Islamic justification for murdering ANYONE.

Its Somalia that's screwed up; not Islam.

This extremist group isn't Muslim?

I understand you disapprove of these crimes as much as I do, but you seem to have a pollyanish view of Islam as it is practiced in many places.

English
05-31-2012, 13:26
Yet Africa has what? 19, 20 of its countries that are majority Muslim and none of them operate like Somalia. Somalia is known for female circumcisions, murdering of Christians and piracy; all of which are un-Islamic. There is not Islamic justification for murdering ANYONE.

Its Somalia that's screwed up; not Islam.

The Koran and the Hadith give justification for murdering non-Muslims and make it a praiseworthy act.

The Mediterranean Sea was virtually unpassable except for heavily armed flotillas for hundreds of years because of Muslim piracy - mainly from the Barbary coast. The same innocent Muslims enslaved the Europeans and made concubines and sex slaves of European women. The Ottoman Empire also enslaved captured Europeans. Whether this has been part of Islamic teaching of not it has been a remarkably widespread practice in larg, successful Islamic countries.

You need to recognize that Islamic laws against murder apply to Muslims murdering other Muslims. Non-Muslims have always been murdered and raped by Muslims without religious sanction.

English

Paul7
05-31-2012, 13:49
The Koran and the Hadith give justification for murdering non-Muslims and make it a praiseworthy act.

The Mediterranean Sea was virtually unpassable except for heavily armed flotillas for hundreds of years because of Muslim piracy - mainly from the Barbary coast. The same innocent Muslims enslaved the Europeans and made concubines and sex slaves of European women. The Ottoman Empire also enslaved captured Europeans. Whether this has been part of Islamic teaching of not it has been a remarkably widespread practice in larg, successful Islamic countries.

You need to recognize that Islamic laws against murder apply to Muslims murdering other Muslims. Non-Muslims have always been murdered and raped by Muslims without religious sanction.

English

Perhaps this is because Allah has no love for non-believers, as the Christian God does.

Akil8290
05-31-2012, 18:33
This extremist group isn't Muslim?

I understand you disapprove of these crimes as much as I do, but you seem to have a pollyanish view of Islam as it is practiced in many places.

If they're Muslim, then would you consider The Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda to be Christian? You know who Joseph Kony is, right?

I guess that's a nice way of telling me that I have a naive view of Islam, that I view the world through rose colored glasses. You're wrong.

Just because people call themselves "Muslims" does not mean they are. Hunting and killing people because they do not subscribe to some backwards, sick ideology is not Islam; it is murder and its a sin.

I think its funny that you tell me what Islam is about when you've never even read the Qur'an and you get your information from Robert Spencer and thereligionofpeace.com; that's like learning about multiculturalism from Neo-Nazis and stormfront.org.

Akil8290
05-31-2012, 18:47
The Koran and the Hadith give justification for murdering non-Muslims and make it a praiseworthy act.

Nope. The Qur'an does not give justification for murdering anybody. There are specific provisions which God gives for dealing with unbelievers in war. God hates war, but does not expect anyone to allow themselves to be victimized; that is why, in Islam, war is only allowed as a defensive act. The Qur'an also instructs us to cease combat when the enemy has retreated and to protect them if they are captured, no matter who they are. Murder is not a "praiseworthy act"; it is a sin.

The Mediterranean Sea was virtually unpassable except for heavily armed flotillas for hundreds of years because of Muslim piracy - mainly from the Barbary coast. The same innocent Muslims enslaved the Europeans and made concubines and sex slaves of European women. The Ottoman Empire also enslaved captured Europeans. Whether this has been part of Islamic teaching of not it has been a remarkably widespread practice in larg, successful Islamic countries.

European societies also had slaves and victimized the Jewish population. America also had slaves, too. Yet these were considered to be "Christian" societies. None of these acts are Christian or Islamic; they are wrong in any society in which they are practiced.

You need to recognize that Islamic laws against murder apply to Muslims murdering other Muslims. Non-Muslims have always been murdered and raped by Muslims without religious sanction.

English

Not true and I want to see where exactly you got that from. Its laughable that you're preaching to me, a Muslim, what Islamic laws are, but go ahead and humor me.

Akil8290
05-31-2012, 18:49
Perhaps this is because Allah has no love for non-believers, as the Christian God does.

Its the same God, the God of The Prophet Abraham (PBUH).

juggy4711
05-31-2012, 19:38
...

Just because people call themselves "Muslims" does not mean they are. Hunting and killing people because they do not subscribe to some backwards, sick ideology is not Islam; it is murder and its a sin...

Yes there are but whatever. Let's say you right they're not Muslims. What is is about Islam that all theses non-Muslims find so easy to use as justification of their evil deeds?

What about all the folks partying in the streets after 9/11. None of them were Muslims right? Show me the Christians in the same proportions doing likewise when some nut does some crazy evil crap in the name of Christianity.

Islam is in the state it's in either because there is some intrinsic flaw, or that the majority of Muslims are too cowered, too willing to submit or too chicken s**t to eradicate the unwanted element.

I'm sick and tired of other religions being compared to Islam on some equal scale because they supported jacked up actions hundreds of years ago. There is no modern comparison. None.

I am not a fan of religion in general but there is only one major religion posing as great a threat to people the world over and it's Islam. Even satanism isn't a threat in the same way and they claim to worship Satan.

Own up. Admit Islam has issues that need to be addressed. Calling out Muslims that do things you do not think are Islamic is all well and good but don't pretend that they are not doing it out of the belief in it no matter how skewed that belief is to you.

Said it before will say it again. What you think of as good Muslims are going to have to die fighting the ones you do not like for there ever to be a change.

Living is the US practicing Islam in the peaceful fashion you agree with while simultaneously telling us the violent dangerous fashion it is practiced elsewhere is not Islam is the chicken s**t I was talking about.

You're going to compare radical Christians to radical Islam all while benefiting from the sacrifice of Christians dieing fighting other Christians to the point they figured out religious freedom was the way to do things? You wouldn't even be able to practice your benign version of Islam here if it were not for the Christians that were willing to kill each other with this end result. So take your LRA reference and shove it.

Paul7
05-31-2012, 19:58
Its the same God, the God of The Prophet Abraham (PBUH).

Nonsense, the Christian God is composed of the trinity, as seen as far back as Genesis. "Let US make man in OUR image."

More:

http://www.truthwatch.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=83


Meanwhile, here is the daily slaughter tally for your religion:

2012.05.31 (Kano, Nigeria) - A German engineer, kidnapped by al-Qaeda, is executed in handcuffs during a rescue attempt.
2012.05.31 (Amariyah, Iraq) - Children are among the casualties when sectarian Jihadis bomb two Sunni homes.
2012.05.31 (Baghdad, Iraq) - A Holy Warrior detonates a delivery truck packed with explosives near a restaurant, slaughtering at least nine.
2012.05.31 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - At least five local cops are blown to bits by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2012.05.30 (Mansehra, Pakistan) - Three brothers are shot in their sleep by the Taliban.
2012.05.30 (Galkayo, Somalia) - Six Somalis are sent to Allah by suspected al-Shabaab bombers.
2012.05.30 (Karachi, Pakistan) - Two Shiites are murdered by Sunni gunmen as they step off a bus.
2012.05.30 (Ghazni, Afghanistan) - A cleric is gunned down by Sunni rivals in his own mosque.


Got a similar list for any other religion from yesterday?

Altaris
05-31-2012, 20:10
I'm not being persecuted, lots of Christians are. It bothers me when anyone, Christian or atheist, gets this treatment. You, on the other hand, don't seem to have a problem as long as it's Christians getting beheaded.


I would disagree with that.
None of us want anyone beheaded(any non-violent people at least). We also pretty much all agree that at this current moment Islam is the most violent/dangerous entity(religion) on this planet. That however does not make Christianity correct, or free from guilt from what they have done over the past couple thousand years. That also doesn't mean it is a free for all on Christians heads. No one should have to worry about that.

Paul7
05-31-2012, 20:26
I would have to disagree with that.
None of us want anyone beheaded(any non-violent people at least). We also pretty much all agree that at this current moment Islam is the most violent/dangerous entity(religion) on this planet. That however does not make Christianity correct, or free from guilt from what they have done over the past couple thousand years.

You mean those things done contrary to Christ's teachings? Are you responsible for atheism's crimes last century?

That also doesn't mean it is a free for all on Christians heads. No one should have to worry about that.

That is exactly what is going on throughout the Muslim world.

Altaris
05-31-2012, 20:35
You mean those things done contrary to Christ's teachings? Are you responsible for atheism's crimes last century?


Contrary or not, they still get the crazy ideas in their head from the fictional book that people preach to them is real.

What atheist crimes? I don't know of any, and if someone did do something in the name of not believing in a god, I would denounce that in a heartbeat. And please don't tell me you were going to use the sad and tired examples of Mao, Hitler, etc... that have been proven wrong so many times already.



That is exactly what is going on throughout the Muslim world.

I wasn't saying that wasn't going on. I was meaning that doesn't give them the right or reason to do it.

Gunhaver
05-31-2012, 20:42
I wouldn't bet your life on that.

Nor would I, but if I were to believe that the Muslims were only out for Christian blood as you suggest I might. Why not title this thread, "When Non-Muslims are Hunted"? Biased much?

juggy4711
05-31-2012, 21:28
You mean those things done contrary to Christ's teachings? Are you responsible for atheism's crimes last century?

That is exactly what is going on throughout the Muslim world.

You sound just like Akil. Akil is not personally responsible for the actions of radical Muslims anymore than you are for Christians that do bad things in the name of Christianity. By the same token folks that do jacked up stuff in the name of Islam are still Muslims the same as those who do so with a Christian justification are still Christians.

Atheism's crimes? Atheism is not a belief system. It is a singular belief with no accompanying system. Aside from not believing in God/rejecting a belief in God, an atheist can subscribe to whatever they want.

I seriously do not get the "see your belief structure (which isn't a belief structure) is a stupid as you think mine is" argument.

Akil8290
06-01-2012, 01:10
Yes there are but whatever. Let's say you right they're not Muslims. What is is about Islam that all theses non-Muslims find so easy to use as justification of their evil deeds?

Nothing, they use their own political and totalitarian goals. Show me where in the Qur'an these things are justified; you can't.

What about all the folks partying in the streets after 9/11. None of them were Muslims right? Show me the Christians in the same proportions doing likewise when some nut does some crazy evil crap in the name of Christianity.

You're confusing Islam with hate towards the West, which is rooted in political ideology. Show me where in the Qur'an it says to hate those who reside on the other side of the world.

Islam is in the state it's in either because there is some intrinsic flaw, or that the majority of Muslims are too cowered, too willing to submit or too chicken s**t to eradicate the unwanted element.

You act like there are no Muslims who are against extremism. You need to look again.

I'm sick and tired of other religions being compared to Islam on some equal scale because they supported jacked up actions hundreds of years ago. There is no modern comparison. None.


Atheism. Atheist communists killed far more people than Islam and Christianity combined.


I am not a fan of religion in general but there is only one major religion posing as great a threat to people the world over and it's Islam. Even satanism isn't a threat in the same way and they claim to worship Satan.

Not true. There are 1.5 billion of us worldwide and there is a very small, very vocal minority which is causing problems of which people believe represents the overall face of Islam; it doesn't.

Own up. Admit Islam has issues that need to be addressed. Calling out Muslims that do things you do not think are Islamic is all well and good but don't pretend that they are not doing it out of the belief in it no matter how skewed that belief is to you.

I've already said this here before. I said that Islam in reform phase; every religion has to go through one and this ours. You're trying to call me out and you don't even know the facts. Please.

Said it before will say it again. What you think of as good Muslims are going to have to die fighting the ones you do not like for there ever to be a change.

Pretty poorly constructed sentence, but I've got the gist of it.

Living is the US practicing Islam in the peaceful fashion you agree with while simultaneously telling us the violent dangerous fashion it is practiced elsewhere is not Islam is the chicken s**t I was talking about.

This right here tells me you really don't know your a-- from third base. There is no 'dangerous' Islam versus 'peaceful' Islam; there is just Islam. Once people, no matter how they attempt to justify it, start committing acts if violence and try to pass it off as Islamic, they have stepped out of Islam. And for the record, I'm not chickens--t; I've got no problems stepping in your a-- or an extremist's a--. Islam is Islam and I will defend it.

You're going to compare radical Christians to radical Islam all while benefiting from the sacrifice of Christians dieing fighting other Christians to the point they figured out religious freedom was the way to do things? You wouldn't even be able to practice your benign version of Islam here if it were not for the Christians that were willing to kill each other with this end result. So take your LRA reference and shove it.

I could address this, too; however you're such a beligerent a--, its not even worth it.

Paul7
06-01-2012, 06:31
Contrary or not, they still get the crazy ideas in their head from the fictional book that people preach to them is real.

You're entitled to your opinion, IMHO the crazy idea is that there is no God, and that nothing times nobody equals everything. Akil and I agree on that.

What atheist crimes? I don't know of any, and if someone did do something in the name of not believing in a god, I would denounce that in a heartbeat. And please don't tell me you were going to use the sad and tired examples of Mao, Hitler, etc... that have been proven wrong so many times already.

LOL, now you're going to tell me Mao and Stalin weren't really atheists, right?

Paul7
06-01-2012, 06:33
You sound just like Akil. Akil is not personally responsible for the actions of radical Muslims

I never said he was.

anymore than you are for Christians that do bad things in the name of Christianity. By the same token folks that do jacked up stuff in the name of Islam are still Muslims the same as those who do so with a Christian justification are still Christians.

Atheism's crimes? Atheism is not a belief system. It is a singular belief with no accompanying system. Aside from not believing in God/rejecting a belief in God, an atheist can subscribe to whatever they want.

And when you have no moral restraints, it certainly facilitates the Gulag and the killing of 100 million.

I seriously do not get the "see your belief structure (which isn't a belief structure) is a stupid as you think mine is" argument.

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

juggy4711
06-01-2012, 21:46
I could address this, too; however you're such a beligerent a--, its not even worth it.

Chicken s**t. You misconstrue all of my arguments to avoid the reality that Islam is the only major religion inspiring such actions in modern society. If its in the middle of reforming I wish your side all the luck in the world. Which only proves my point. It is need of a reformation. Why is it the last of the major religions to need one? Why is it Islam is so easily used as justification for jacked up stuff by far more folks than any other religion?

Gunhaver
06-01-2012, 22:51
And when you have no moral restraints, it certainly facilitates the Gulag and the killing of 100 million.





True, but moral restraints are hardly exclusive to the religious.

Paul7
06-02-2012, 09:35
True, but moral restraints are hardly exclusive to the religious.

I didn't say they were, but they certainly are more prevalent with the religious. Even atheists have God's law written on their hearts, whether they acknowledge it or not.

English
06-02-2012, 09:41
Akil and Paul,
You have a major problem in your understanding of atheism and I am not sure that I can explain it so that you will understand.

Fundamentally, there are three types of atheist and the fact that they are all called atheists but have totally different characteristics causes ongoing confusion which allows people to say, "What about Mao and Stalin then?"

The first type believes that for practical purposes there can be no God and does so for precisely the same reasons that he or she disbelieves bull**** of any kind. That is, he can accept things with reasonable evidence or reasonable expectation of evidence in the future but not things that are obviously nonsensical. The second type does not believe there is a God because that would conflict with something else that he is committed to believing, such as Communism or Socialism. As far as the first category of atheist is concerned, the second category is just as much a believer in some Bull**** explanation of the world, life and everything as are the believers in religions with gods. They are just as irrational and just as incapable of conducting a rational argument which conflicts with their basic belief in their ideology, whether it has a god or not. The third type has no belief in a god, or any ideology because they are too dumb or too uninterested in anything outside their own satisfaction to care.

At least some of the first type will claim that Communism and Socialism are effectively religions without a god. In fact these ideologies correspond in almost all respects except for the belief in a god. They have their own hierarchies, their own moral codes, their own explanation of the past and the future and their own preachers of the meaning of the Word. In some parts of their knowledge system they will agree with type 1 atheists about things where there is no conflict, such as the Big Bang. In some cases some they will disagree, as with the earlier denial of Darwinian evolution under Stalin becaue he wanted striving for personal and political improvement by one generation to produce genetically superior individuals in the next. What we see there is precisely the ability to believe in bull**** regardless of evidence within type 2 atheists.

We can now split those who have opinions as those who can believe nonsense when it supports their ideology and those who cannot believe without reasonable evidence in support.

It is entirely possible that some type 1 atheists could reach a conclusion which would result in their committing what would be thought to be attrocities. The difference between that and type 2 atheism, and all religions, is that the tendency to commit attrocities in built in to the structure of all those ideologies because an ideology sets up an us and them relationship between its believers and all others. This is not something equivalent to me thinking that I am morally and intellectually superior to individual X but something that is applied on a mass scale across large proportions of believers in a particular ideology. And so, with the support of his ideology and followers who believed the same, Communist, ideology, Pol Pot could murder a third of his countriy's population - adults and children. As a technical explanation of how this was possible, the people were first disarmed and then the people of selected families or villages were gathered up and taken one by one into the jungle and clubbed to death because the government could not afford to buy enough ammunition. They became very skilled and one blow was usually enough. it took many people believing in the virtue of what they were doing to carry out such a program and we should wonder why.

This mind set of an ideology relative to those outside the ideology has a spectum of intensity which goes something like;
the world would be a better place if everyone believed as I do, to,
the world would be a better place if everyone believed as I do but as they don't they should all contribute to the cost of the things that would make it a better place, to,
as above but they should be forced via the tax system and democracy to make an equal contribution, to,
those who do not believe as I do are lacking in virtue and should be forced to contribute a greater share of the costs of making the world a better place, to,
those who don't believe as I do are less that properly human, to,
those who don't believe as I do are less than human, to,
those who don't believe as I do are sub-human and deserve no human compassion, to,
those who do not believe as I do and cannot be persuaded to do so should be killed or enslaved as they are a stain on true humanity.

All ideologies, whether they believe in a god or not, teach their followers that they are unique and superior in some way. How far they take the above progression varies from one ideology to another and within each ideology from one preacher to another, and how far it is absorbed and made a core component of their personality varies from individual to individual. As a result we can find examples of terrorism and what are known as crimes against humanity committed by all religious groups, including the Bhudists. if we look at their frequency in the last century, the Jews and the Chrisians come down at the bottom, and the Muslims and the Communists come up at the top. We can put the Nazis up at the top as well but it would probably be unfair to put the Fascists there as a whole since the other major Fascists, the Italians from the 1930s to the end of WW2 seem not to have committed anywhere near the scale of attrocities as the Germans over the same period. This seems true at least relative to their own people but I don't know enough about Italy's behaviour in Abyssinia to comment on that.

Akil asks for references from the Koran or Hadith praising the murder of non-Muslims. Unfortunately, I am away from home and cannot find references here but if we concern behaviour rather than origins, there were polls conducted of Muslim opinions in the UK and Canada after, respectively, the Tube Train bombings in London and the attempt to behead the Canadian Prime Minister. There was a remarkable similarity in both. In both, 13% approved of the terrorists' intent. In both, about 50% had sympathy for the intent of the terrorists.

I very much doubt that any other large scale ideological group in the West could come within 10% of those numbers. To be clear, that is, I don't think they could reach 1.3% and 5% respectively. Hard to say of course, because the only comparable act we have seen from no-Muslims is Breivik and I have not seen any kind of poll of attitudes to his action.

The poll figures would in any case appear to under report the support levels amongst the Muslims polled because one of the compulsions on Muslims is to say nothing that would bring Islam into disrespect. Even common sense would stop most people agreeing that they had any sympathy for the terrorists but in this case they would have been going against a religious requirement as well. So perhaps the only honest answers came from the dumbest hals of the sample polled.

What else can we say about the undesireability of religious attitutes taught to Muslims. They are taught that Jihad must never cease. Jihad means "struggle" and this can be interpreted, quite fairly, to mean the struggle to make oneself a better individual, to work harder for your family and community, and so on. It also means the strugle to convert others to Islam. And fairly again, this can mean by setting a good example to your non-Muslim neighbours by leading a good and respectable life. (One of the Tube Bombers was a highly respected teacher of small children!) It can also mean by discussion and argument. Unfortunately it can also mean conversion by warfare. The phenomenal rate of early expansion of the Muslim Empire was achived by attacking successive neighbouring countries which posed a threat so that the action was entirely justified by self defence. It might be coincidental that each time they conquered one country, the countries on its other borders became threats as well.

Enough for now.

English

ksg0245
06-03-2012, 10:03
And when you have no moral restraints, it certainly facilitates the Gulag and the killing of 100 million.

Atheism != "no moral restraints."

juggy4711
06-03-2012, 20:28
This thread in summary:

Atheists: Religions are bad!
Theists: Atheism is a religion too!
Christians: Christians that do bad things are not Christians!
Muslims: Muslims that do bad things are not Muslims!
Christians: Muslims that do bad thing are Muslims!
Muslims: Christians that do bad things are Christians!
Theists: Atheists that do bad things are atheists!
Atheists: WTF does that have to do with being an atheist?

Akil8290
06-03-2012, 22:56
This thread in summary:

Atheists: Religions are bad!
Theists: Atheism is a religion too!
Christians: Christians that do bad things are not Christians!
Muslims: Muslims that do bad things are not Muslims!
Christians: Muslims that do bad thing are Muslims!
Muslims: Christians that do bad things are Christians!
Theists: Atheists that do bad things are atheists!
Atheists: WTF does that have to do with being an atheist?

Being that I'm the only Muslim posting on here, I want to know exactly when I said that Christians doing bad things are Christians; terrorism and oppression are not the teachings of either Christianity or Islam.

Or you can just be an obnoxious a-- again and say, "Chickensh-t!"

Akil8290
06-03-2012, 23:07
Akil and Paul,
You have a major problem in your understanding of atheism and I am not sure that I can explain it so that you will understand.

Gee, that's really helpful in supporting your position, isn't it? Translation: I can't explain my belief system to you.

Fundamentally, there are three types of atheist and the fact that they are all called atheists but have totally different characteristics causes ongoing confusion which allows people to say, "What about Mao and Stalin then?"

The first type believes that for practical purposes there can be no God and does so for precisely the same reasons that he or she disbelieves bull**** of any kind. That is, he can accept things with reasonable evidence or reasonable expectation of evidence in the future but not things that are obviously nonsensical. The second type does not believe there is a God because that would conflict with something else that he is committed to believing, such as Communism or Socialism. As far as the first category of atheist is concerned, the second category is just as much a believer in some Bull**** explanation of the world, life and everything as are the believers in religions with gods. They are just as irrational and just as incapable of conducting a rational argument which conflicts with their basic belief in their ideology, whether it has a god or not. The third type has no belief in a god, or any ideology because they are too dumb or too uninterested in anything outside their own satisfaction to care.

At least some of the first type will claim that Communism and Socialism are effectively religions without a god. In fact these ideologies correspond in almost all respects except for the belief in a god. They have their own hierarchies, their own moral codes, their own explanation of the past and the future and their own preachers of the meaning of the Word. In some parts of their knowledge system they will agree with type 1 atheists about things where there is no conflict, such as the Big Bang. In some cases some they will disagree, as with the earlier denial of Darwinian evolution under Stalin becaue he wanted striving for personal and political improvement by one generation to produce genetically superior individuals in the next. What we see there is precisely the ability to believe in bull**** regardless of evidence within type 2 atheists.

We can now split those who have opinions as those who can believe nonsense when it supports their ideology and those who cannot believe without reasonable evidence in support.

It is entirely possible that some type 1 atheists could reach a conclusion which would result in their committing what would be thought to be attrocities. The difference between that and type 2 atheism, and all religions, is that the tendency to commit attrocities in built in to the structure of all those ideologies because an ideology sets up an us and them relationship between its believers and all others. This is not something equivalent to me thinking that I am morally and intellectually superior to individual X but something that is applied on a mass scale across large proportions of believers in a particular ideology. And so, with the support of his ideology and followers who believed the same, Communist, ideology, Pol Pot could murder a third of his countriy's population - adults and children. As a technical explanation of how this was possible, the people were first disarmed and then the people of selected families or villages were gathered up and taken one by one into the jungle and clubbed to death because the government could not afford to buy enough ammunition. They became very skilled and one blow was usually enough. it took many people believing in the virtue of what they were doing to carry out such a program and we should wonder why.

This mind set of an ideology relative to those outside the ideology has a spectum of intensity which goes something like;
the world would be a better place if everyone believed as I do, to,
the world would be a better place if everyone believed as I do but as they don't they should all contribute to the cost of the things that would make it a better place, to,
as above but they should be forced via the tax system and democracy to make an equal contribution, to,
those who do not believe as I do are lacking in virtue and should be forced to contribute a greater share of the costs of making the world a better place, to,
those who don't believe as I do are less that properly human, to,
those who don't believe as I do are less than human, to,
those who don't believe as I do are sub-human and deserve no human compassion, to,
those who do not believe as I do and cannot be persuaded to do so should be killed or enslaved as they are a stain on true humanity.

All ideologies, whether they believe in a god or not, teach their followers that they are unique and superior in some way. How far they take the above progression varies from one ideology to another and within each ideology from one preacher to another, and how far it is absorbed and made a core component of their personality varies from individual to individual. As a result we can find examples of terrorism and what are known as crimes against humanity committed by all religious groups, including the Bhudists. if we look at their frequency in the last century, the Jews and the Chrisians come down at the bottom, and the Muslims and the Communists come up at the top. We can put the Nazis up at the top as well but it would probably be unfair to put the Fascists there as a whole since the other major Fascists, the Italians from the 1930s to the end of WW2 seem not to have committed anywhere near the scale of attrocities as the Germans over the same period. This seems true at least relative to their own people but I don't know enough about Italy's behaviour in Abyssinia to comment on that.

Akil asks for references from the Koran or Hadith praising the murder of non-Muslims. Unfortunately, I am away from home and cannot find references here but if we concern behaviour rather than origins, there were polls conducted of Muslim opinions in the UK and Canada after, respectively, the Tube Train bombings in London and the attempt to behead the Canadian Prime Minister. There was a remarkable similarity in both. In both, 13% approved of the terrorists' intent. In both, about 50% had sympathy for the intent of the terrorists.

You can at least provide a link to those polls; away from home or not, you obviously have access to the internet. How does one approve of intent and have sympathy for the intent? What's the difference?

I very much doubt that any other large scale ideological group in the West could come within 10% of those numbers. To be clear, that is, I don't think they could reach 1.3% and 5% respectively. Hard to say of course, because the only comparable act we have seen from no-Muslims is Breivik and I have not seen any kind of poll of attitudes to his action.

The poll figures would in any case appear to under report the support levels amongst the Muslims polled because one of the compulsions on Muslims is to say nothing that would bring Islam into disrespect. Even common sense would stop most people agreeing that they had any sympathy for the terrorists but in this case they would have been going against a religious requirement as well. So perhaps the only honest answers came from the dumbest hals of the sample polled.

Showing support for terrorism alone brings Islam into disrespect.

What else can we say about the undesireability of religious attitutes taught to Muslims. They are taught that Jihad must never cease. Jihad means "struggle" and this can be interpreted, quite fairly, to mean the struggle to make oneself a better individual, to work harder for your family and community, and so on. It also means the strugle to convert others to Islam. And fairly again, this can mean by setting a good example to your non-Muslim neighbours by leading a good and respectable life. (One of the Tube Bombers was a highly respected teacher of small children!) It can also mean by discussion and argument. Unfortunately it can also mean conversion by warfare. The phenomenal rate of early expansion of the Muslim Empire was achived by attacking successive neighbouring countries which posed a threat so that the action was entirely justified by self defence. It might be coincidental that each time they conquered one country, the countries on its other borders became threats as well.

Confusing violent expansionism with Dawah? Really? The two really are mutually exclusive.

Enough for now.

English

I can't wait to see your response.

Tilley
06-03-2012, 23:08
juggy is an obnoxious ant? :dunno:

Akil8290
06-03-2012, 23:17
juggy is an obnoxious ant? :dunno:

A-s-s. He's also a beligerent one, too. Just sayin'.

juggy4711
06-04-2012, 00:06
Being that I'm the only Muslim posting on here, I want to know exactly when I said that Christians doing bad things are Christians; terrorism and oppression are not the teachings of either Christianity or Islam.

Or you can just be an obnoxious a-- again and say, "Chickensh-t!"

Chicken-S**t. Happy? You might not have said it but your aren't the LRA Christians reference says it all. While your point may be that the LRA are not Christians by Paul or Snowbirds definition just as radical Muslims are not by yours, the point is that you are not in a position to tell them otherwise. The bad Muslims are in deed Muslims, the bad Christians are indeed Christians.

NO justification in the holy TEXTS! You both scream. Yes there is otherwise they would not be able to do so. However there is something in Islam that causes it to be a far greater threat than modern Christianity. My guess is that Christians are able to take things less literal.

cowboywannabe
06-04-2012, 02:44
does the kuran not say that a muslim must either convert a non muslim to islam, if no conversion then they make the non muslim their servant or kill them.

English
06-04-2012, 04:24
I can't wait to see your response.

If you want to see a response it would help if you give your response in a form which comes over as a quotation instead of making me jump back and forth copying bits.


Gee, that's really helpful in supporting your position, isn't it? Translation: I can't explain my belief system to you.

This is not a problem with the explanation, which I think is simple enough, but with the mind set of religious readers who seem determined to believe that all those who do not believe in a god fall into the same category as Mao and Stalin. It is very convenient for them to say all atheists are like Mao and Stalin, both of whom spent a lot of time dicussing atheism on religion forums.

You can at least provide a link to those polls; away from home or not, you obviously have access to the internet. How does one approve of intent and have sympathy for the intent? What's the difference?

I have tried to find them before and failed. Perhaps you could try.

I find that wording quite meaningfully different. If you approve of something you are cheering it on. If you just have sympathy you can understand the motivation but not approve of the action.

Showing support for terrorism alone brings Islam into disrespect.

Precisely my point. So Muslims who are bright enough to understand that would not admit their support or even sympathy for terrorism.

Confusing violent expansionism with Dawah? Really? The two really are mutually exclusive.

For those who don't already know, I will explain what you have not. Dawah translates as issuing an invitation - in this case to become Muslim by a process of reasoned argument and example. I was not confusing the two things at all, but saying that both are aspects of Jihad which have been practiced as part of Islam since its foundation.

In the early days when Islam could be said to be under development, Mohammed had been expelled from Medina for being a religious nuisance. He then made a successful living as a bandit chief with his religious followers as his henchmen. During this time he was based in a region which contained three different Jewish towns. For something like three years, if I remember correctly, he tried to persuade the people of those towns to join his new religion. This was Dawah! The only parts of the Koran which talk of peaceful co-exitence were created during this period. As he was a bandit chief they were wary about saying no but eventually they had to make a decision and said no. The relentless hatred of the Jews in the Koran started in the section created immediately after this. Mohammed and his fellow bandits then slaughtered all the men and boys and made the women and girls concubines and slaves. This was violent expansionism and the beginning of a period in which the Middle East and beyond was conquered and forced to submit to the submission that is Islam. The sodiers of Islam not only had the assurance of Paradise if they died in battle, but also had the spoils of war as a reward in life.

Within Islam, Mohammed is considered to be the perfect man or exemplar for proper behaviour. As a result the attempt at Dawah which fails to produce conversion can properly be followed by murder of those who have received the invitation but have refused it. As such Dawah and violent expansionism are merely aspects of the same thing, and that is the conversion of everyone to Islam or the death of those who have been given the opportunity to understand Islam but have rejected it.

Not very long after this, Mohammed went to war with a large tribe in the area, but was loosing. He then made a peace treaty with them, but rather than honour the treaty he used the time to increase the strength of his forces until he could win. He then attacked without warning at night and killed everyone. (Presumably some women and girls were saved for the same purpose as before.) This too became part of the exemplar of proper behaviour since, as Mohammed explained, Jihad must never cease, but in those times when it cannot prevail immediately it is correct to establish a peace treaty provided that the intent is to build up strenth until Jihad can be pursued directly again. We see this again and again as diplomats of Muslim countries agree peace treaties and break their word. After the Camp Davbid peace treaty agreed by Yasser Arafat he was heavily criticised by many of his followers. In a speech to them, given in Arabic which he expected would not be reported in the Western Media, he referred to this example of deceit as part of Jihad and asked the crowd if they thought he did not know it.

Can you deny any of the above with what Western or Christian cultures would consider honesty?

English

Kingarthurhk
06-04-2012, 04:46
I was kind of hoping Paul would point that out so I'd have him right where I want him. He likes to play the Christian martyr.

True, becaue it is trendy to pick at Christianity, but everyone else is sacrocint. Pick at a Christian, you are "enlightened" and you are merely showing them their knuckle dragging stupidity for their own good. Pick at anyone else and you are an instant "bigot". I am not seeing any logical or reasonable consistancy there.

What I have learned since my time here is that Atheism, by-and-large should be repackaged as Anti-Theism, but in the specific and not the general.

English
06-04-2012, 07:08
True, becaue it is trendy to pick at Christianity, but everyone else is sacrocint. Pick at a Christian, you are "enlightened" and you are merely showing them their knuckle dragging stupidity for their own good. Pick at anyone else and you are an instant "bigot". I am not seeing any logical or reasonable consistancy there.

What I have learned since my time here is that Atheism, by-and-large should be repackaged as Anti-Theism, but in the specific and not the general.

What you should understand, and I am not one of them, is that many type 1 atheists have escaped Christianity because they have had some very nasty experiences there which have left them understandably bitter as well as impassioned.

Personally, I am anti-theist and disapprove of any kind of religion, including Socialism and Communism as explained elsewhere, but my bad experiences with Christianity were limited to boredom at Sunday School. I am against all varieties of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and what have you. Some, Islam, Communism and Socialism in particular, are worse than others in their own ways, but all are bad.

Regardless of that, I see no way of removing the religious tendency from humanity and believe that it is essential that religious freedom more or less remains a right. That also means that I should not have religion imposed on me.

English

cowboywannabe
06-04-2012, 07:50
nobody has answered this so i will ask again.....

does the kuran not say that a muslim must either convert a non muslim to islam, if no conversion then they make the non muslim their servant or kill them.

Paul7
06-04-2012, 09:14
NO justification in the holy TEXTS! You both scream. Yes there is otherwise they would not be able to do so. However there is something in Islam that causes it to be a far greater threat than modern Christianity. My guess is that Christians are able to take things less literal.

So what are these violent words and deeds of Jesus Christ that we need to take less literally?

snowbird
06-04-2012, 09:25
does the kuran not say that a muslim must either convert a non muslim to islam, if no conversion then they make the non muslim their servant or kill them.

Yes, you are right, the Koran does say this.

cowboywannabe
06-04-2012, 10:51
Yes, you are right, the Koran does say this.

so why are "moderate" muslims denying these islamic rules?

can a muslim be muslim and see non muslims as their equal?

kirgi08
06-04-2012, 11:12
:tempted:

cowboywannabe
06-04-2012, 11:29
so why are "moderate" muslims denying these islamic rules?

can a muslim be muslim and see non muslims as their equal?

surely Akil8290 can answer this one.

English
06-04-2012, 11:31
so why are "moderate" muslims denying these islamic rules?
I don't know if you are asking this as a rhetorical question but the answer is simple. The rules which conflict with what the western cultures think honourable and right would bring Islam into ill repute if they were admitted to. Admitting to anything which would bring Islam into disrespect is something Muslims are not allowed to do, so they flannel around and say that islam is a religion of peace. That is good because they can quote verses which seem to support that. Unfortunately the claim is out of context because the verses are about peace between Muslims and not between Muslims and non-Muslims. There are very few verses about peace between Muslims and non-Muslims and they occured early in the creation of the Koran. In contrast there are many verses about warfare with non-Muslims in later parts of the Koran and the Koran also says that is there is conflict between verses then the later one supercedes the earlier one.

can a muslim be muslim and see non muslims as their equal?
No, and many Muslim preachers even tell their followers that they should keep themselves apart from non-Muslims and not make friends of them. This is not as bad as it might seem since many Christian sects say much the same. Thesimple fact is that Muslims see themselves as not just superior but on a different plane of being. They will be saved and others will not. Once again, many Christian sects claim the same thing and this is inherrent in just about all religions. It is hard for a religion to continue in existence unless it can tell its followers that they are the chosen people.

English

Akil8290
06-05-2012, 14:31
so why are "moderate" muslims denying these islamic rules?

Because they don't exist. The Qur'an tells us in Surah 2:256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion; show that truth stands clear from error." What this means is that religion is based on faith and free will and to induce it by force would be meaningless. The other part of Surah explains that God's plan is to lead us into the light and away from darkness. It is un-Islamic to kill a person for not accepting Islam. Plain and simple, no matter who attempts to justify it.

can a muslim be muslim and see non muslims as their equal?Yes, and in fact, the Qur'an instructs us to treat others with respect, regardless of faith. Particullarly, the People of The Book (Jews and Christians).

See above.

cowboywannabe
06-05-2012, 15:42
See above.

so the kuran makes no mention of converting non muslims and when non muslims do not convert they must be enslaved or made servants of in a way or killed? the kuran does not say this?