How many rounds do you fire before trusting? [Archive] - Glock Talk

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faawrenchbndr
06-03-2012, 12:46
Doesn't matter if it's a Glock, 1911, or revolver.
How many rounds do you fire before you will trust a handgun?

I think 200-300
Some say 1000. Others say 500. One thinks 14.

What are YOUR thoughts?

Darkangel1846
06-03-2012, 12:47
couple hundred.

Wil Ufgood
06-03-2012, 12:49
:rofl:

Function Check, Done! 14rds that costs money.

BOM
06-03-2012, 13:06
500 FMJs and 200 of what I'm going to carry.

Motor City Glocker
06-03-2012, 13:11
In a Glock or Beretta, 200 will do for me. In a 1911, I like to throw in 40-50 of whatever hollow point rounds I will carry in it.

ronin.45
06-03-2012, 13:20
A box or so. If its going to jam it'll be right away. Otherwise it'll most likely be a part break and that could happen at round 1 or 1000.

shadowman024
06-03-2012, 13:22
200 fmj in a row without failure 100 jhp without failure if i get a failure 200 fmj agian.
Jhp are easy they either feed or they don't so if you get 50 rnds of jhp down without a problem youre probably good

deputy tom
06-03-2012, 13:24
I'm usually good for 150 rds. However I read that Kahr pistols needed to have 200 rds thru them for break-in. I did that without any failures so it's GTG.tom.:dunno:

byf43
06-03-2012, 13:39
250 rounds IF I'm going to carry the firearm.

The weapon must perform 100%. No hiccups of any kind, for me to trust it with my life.

It must digest at least 100 rounds of the ammo that I want to carry, without one hiccup before I trust it.

Angry Fist
06-03-2012, 13:41
I say 1000, cuz you might as well get a good degree of proficiency while you're at it.

Andrewsky
06-03-2012, 13:49
I do not trust any firearms. I always try to have back-up weapons on me or nearby.

hogship
06-03-2012, 13:50
200 for automatics........50 for a revolver

ooc

paulbow
06-03-2012, 13:52
2-300 plus a couple boxes of carry ammo.

Glockdude1
06-03-2012, 13:53
1.

:supergrin:

I carry a GLOCK after all!!

GRT45
06-03-2012, 14:00
150 rounds fired of the JHP carry ammo, without a failure, is what I decided was sufficiently trustworthy operation to use a NIB Glock 45ACP pistol for CCW.

However, I always fire the full mag of JHP ammo I carried the past week as the first drill of each range practice session to verify proper functioning of pistol, CCW mag, and JHP ammo.

"Trust, but verify" was a favorite maxim that one of my heroes liked to recite when dealing with the former Soviet Union, and it's a good policy today for a weapon that may save your life one day.

Trust but verify: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As6y5eI01XE

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 14:01
If it's a new gun then 100 rounds should let you know if you've bought something decent or a POS. For a used gun that's already had a few hundred rounds through it a couple mags should let you know if it's going to run or not.
For Civilians you'll expend 3 or 4 rounds in a "Gun Fight" so if you can run a mag through your gun and not have any malfunctions then you've ran more ammo through it then you'll fire in a Life and Death situation.
Most Problem Guns do so right out of the box at which point they need to be sent back to the manufacture for repair or replacement. Any quality firearm of proper design should run right out of the box, 100%, NO exceptions. If you need to break the gun in or have to put 500 rounds through it before you'll trust it then you need to find a different gun to carry.
My Glock G26 4th Gen ran 100% right out of the box, the used Beretta 92F Compact I bought ran 100%, PX4 Storm 40cal ran 100%, The ATI 1911 was 100% once I got decent mags for it, my current XD45 is 100% and my PK380 has been 100%. I really don't see the need to waste ammo trying to "prove" that my gun is going to run, I know it'll run because it has been running 100% and as long as I feed it quality ammo and keep it clean it should continue to run 100%.

ctfireman
06-03-2012, 14:04
I'm pretty trusting with my guns. I'll carry a new gun after 100 rounds, sometimes less. I seem to be an exception in this case but i guess its bc i've been fortunate to never get a lemon of a firearm. I mean after all they are built to shoot.

Nestor
06-03-2012, 14:40
I'm going to repeat what I already said in the other thread, that was closed.
You may say that any failure at 500 rounds is immaterial because you will never shoot it that much in real life or maybe because you can't afford the ammo or maybe because the previous owner did it for You already (really?).
Now consider this: the gun that is riding around your butt in its holster for a while may in fact be a lot closer in terms of operational condition to that of 500 rounds mark than you might believe. If You are too busy posting all over the internet how remarkably wonderful your gun is and you have no time to clean your pistol every few days it may be even worse, especially under dusty, hot or humid conditions.
It's exposed to all the crap out there. By the end of the day my revolver is usually very dirty - that's because I'm living on the prairies - lot of dust in the air and it's everywhere...no way to hide from it.
This is exactly why it's important to test your self defense gun thoroughly, and yes - that means a days where you shoot 500 or more rounds through it without cleaning or otherwise pumping up that thing.
It's not to prove that the gun will shoot 500 rounds without any malfunctions.
It's simply the best way to determine whether the gun will function in the non so pristine condition in which it probably always exists.
The goal should be zero malfunctions, because that's what's necessary when your life is on the line.
Firing few rounds and call it a day is a joke.

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 14:54
It's exposed to all the crap out there. By the end of the day my revolver is usually very dirty - that's because I'm living on the prairies - lot of dust in the air and it's everywhere...no way to hide from it.


So maybe instead of burning up 500 rounds you can run 20 thought the gun to confirm it's function then dip it in a bucket of mud/dirt/sand and run another 20 through it to see how it'll function under the extreme contritions you'll experience? IF it won't run then you need to find a different design that will work under those conditions.
Having actually worked for a Firearms Manufacture I can say, from experience, that we would do a function and accuracy test on all the guns we build before they left the factory. If they didn't pass they'd be returned to the gunsmith to be worked on and adjusted until they would pass all the tests. Any quality firearms manufacture will actually test their guns before they box them up and ship them out the door. There is also a lot of testing with any new design for what is called "Proof of Concept" to make sure that any gun that will be manufactured will actually work in the Real World BEFORE the manufacture tools up to produce it. They do many, many Thousands of rounds of testing before production then a function and accuracy test before the gun is boxed up and leaves the factory. All we're really doing when we run 100 rounds through a new gun is checking to see if the sights are set for us and so we can get use to the trigger and controls on the new gun.

barth
06-03-2012, 14:55
Doesn't matter if it's a Glock, 1911, or revolver.
How many rounds do you fire before you will trust a handgun?

I think 200-300
Some say 1000. Others say 500. One thinks 14.

What are YOUR thoughts?

200 rounds has always been the rule for me.
Specifically with the carry ammo and mags.

If I change ammo or get new mags it's back to the range - LOL!
Isn't that one a heart breaker.

Makes me want to switch SD ammo or get some new mags just because...

Wil Ufgood
06-03-2012, 15:14
Frank if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.

mad.gunsmith
06-03-2012, 15:17
1.

:supergrin:

I carry a GLOCK after all!!

+1 :wavey:

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 15:18
Frank if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.

I thought we were talking about function testing a handgun here, not learning how to shoot a handgun. If a person has fired many rounds at all through handguns over the years then it should be fairly easy to adapt to a new handgun if it's of similar design. Even LEO's who went from revolvers to Glocks didn't fire 500 rounds through them to get use to the new guns.

Bruce M
06-03-2012, 15:20
I like to test a new gun by shooting at the drywall in my garage. I am happy that the gun is good to go when either it is time for a new piece of drywall or they come to arrest me....

GRT45
06-03-2012, 15:48
I like to test a new gun by shooting at the drywall in my garage. I am happy that the gun is good to go when either it is time for a new piece of drywall or they come to arrest me....

:animlol:
It's best to first yell, "Hold my beer, and watch this!" to follow the test protocol exactly. Har!

dnuggett
06-03-2012, 15:51
Even LEO's who went from revolvers to Glocks didn't fire 500 rounds through them to get use to the new guns.

Even LEOs? Bad example. In general, they don't shoot much at all.

dnuggett
06-03-2012, 15:55
If I am going to carry it or depend on it for self defense:

300 range loads
150 defense loads

It can't fail once in those 450 rounds. If it does I diagnose the problem, fix it and start the count over. I usually don't have the patience to go through the exercise more than twice.

RWBlue
06-03-2012, 15:58
It depends on the gun.

After having several Glocks, when I bought a new one I put a loaded mag into it and was good to go. (After several hundred rounds in this gun, I know I was correct in my thinking.)

With my PM9, I found an issue in the first mag so it took a while to get comfortable.

With revolvers, I think I could work the action unloaded. Load it. And feel like it was ready to go.

With a 1911, I never really got comfortable.

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 16:00
Even LEOs? Bad example. In general, they don't shoot much at all.

And yet they depend on their sidearm to defend their life and the life of others. Go Figure.

Nestor
06-03-2012, 16:10
Frank if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.

I burned 2500 rounds before I felt like my model 10 was part of my hand. I was reading somewhere that it takes 3000 repetitions to actually learn your muscles...things...and I believe it's true. Since then I ran probably another 1500 rounds thru that gun. It still looks pretty good to me...not that I'm going to post bunch of pictures anytime soon, but still :whistling:

Nestor
06-03-2012, 16:21
So maybe instead of burning up 500 rounds you can run 20 thought the gun to confirm it's function then dip it in a bucket of mud/dirt/sand and run another 20 through it to see how it'll function under the extreme contritions you'll experience?

20 sounds bit excessive...but You are right, mud sticks.

NDCent
06-03-2012, 16:29
A box or so. If its going to jam it'll be right away. Otherwise it'll most likely be a part break and that could happen at round 1 or 1000.

I pretty much agree. I usually won't buy weapons that require a breakin period.

Wil Ufgood
06-03-2012, 16:36
Hey whatever floats your boat. But if you don't test fire all you mags filled to capacity and test that they function during a speed reload and slide lock reload you're doing yourself a disservice.

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 17:17
Of course everything posted in this thread is Opinion. I have mine, you have yours, some one else has theirs, no one is right or wrong, just different.
Some are quick learners and can get the hang of a new gun in a few rounds, other's take more and still other's can shoot a lifetime and never really get it.
Best thing is to agree to disagree and get on with our lives. Not seen anything written in stone as to how many rounds you "need" to run through a new gun before you trust it, it's all up to the person that owns that gun as to when they trust it, if ever.

AA#5
06-03-2012, 17:28
500-1,000 for an auto.

recycooler
06-03-2012, 17:46
One, The other 999 I shot Saturday were for giggles.

Wil Ufgood
06-03-2012, 17:54
Of course everything posted in this thread is Opinion. I have mine, you have yours, some one else has theirs, no one is right or wrong, just different.
Some are quick learners and can get the hang of a new gun in a few rounds, other's take more and still other's can shoot a lifetime and never really get it.
Best thing is to agree to disagree and get on with our lives. Not seen anything written in stone as to how many rounds you "need" to run through a new gun before you trust it, it's all up to the person that owns that gun as to when they trust it, if ever.

Frank, there's an old saying. "Train the way you fight, fight the way you train" from your posts it's clear you've never draw a gun in a life and death situation.

Take that anyway you want

BTW, even people who've never been in that situation, that are responsible about carrying a gun have that "warrior" mindset.

Soapbox out!

southernshooter
06-03-2012, 18:28
I say 1000, cuz you might as well get a good degree of proficiency while you're at it.

With a new Kel tec. "1000 rounds, works great. But now it's worn out" I kid

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 18:42
from your posts it's clear you've never draw a gun in a life and death situation.

And I hope I never have to either. I'm sure most of the folks on the forum hope to never draw their gun in a Live and Death Situation too.

Frank if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.

Frank, there's an old saying. "Train the way you fight, fight the way you train"
I still we were talking Reliability Testing. So, now we've switched gears to Training? I wish you could make up your mind as to what we're talking about here because Reliability Testing is not the same as Training.

Wil Ufgood
06-03-2012, 18:46
And I hope I never have to either. I'm sure most of the folks on the forum hope to never draw their gun in a Live and Death Situation too.
That being said I still thought we were talking Reliability Testing. So, now we've switched gears to Training? I wish you could make up your mind as to what we're talking about here because Reliability Testing is not the same as Training.

Forget it Frank, do what you want with your guns.

Training wasn't the issue, it's your attitude.

I sure hope you never have to use them to save yourself or someone else.

collim1
06-03-2012, 18:47
250rds of varied brand FMJ making sure to use each magazine that I have for the gun.

After that a mag or two of my JHP load. JHP ammo is expensive, I cant afford to shoot 200+ rds of JHP through my carry guns.

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 18:48
Forget it Frank, do what you want with your guns.

I sure hope you never have to use them to save yourself or someone else.

So do I, I'd hate to have to kill someone, that would be awful. Still, if it ever comes down to it I'm sure I'm more then up to the task to place rounds on "target" and get the job done.

Pepiot
06-03-2012, 19:05
100 rounds fmj and 1 mag of whatever I plan to carry.

Stevekozak
06-03-2012, 19:06
Forget it Frank, do what you want with your guns.

Training wasn't the issue, it's your attitude.

I sure hope you never have to use them to save yourself or someone else.
Watching you and Nestor beat on Frank was a hell of a lot of fun for awhile, but now it is just getting kind of boring.

As to OP. I usually run at least 300 flawless rounds through a newly aquired gun before I carry it. Some take longer to meet that criteria than others. Glock was good on the 300th round through it. Kimber was not there until about the 550th round (but has not missed a beat since!). Sig was there on 300th round.

Wil Ufgood
06-03-2012, 19:13
Watching you and Nestor beat on Frank was a hell of a lot of fun for awhile, but now it is just getting kind of boring.



I agree completely, here's something more entertaining :wavey:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zfai0H7c8io/TBFZNVAfDOI/AAAAAAAADmM/Fy5x9zNZ8vw/s1600/Gun+girl+SB+1070+rally+in+Phoenix.jpg

GlockinNJ
06-03-2012, 19:16
I bought a NIB Gen 3 G22 last year and put about 8k rounds through it using a variety of factory ammo. I've had maybe 12-15 malfunctions of different types spread over the course of the last year. That's too many for me and I don't really trust the gun.

Stevekozak
06-03-2012, 19:16
I agree completely, here's something more entertaining :wavey:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zfai0H7c8io/TBFZNVAfDOI/AAAAAAAADmM/Fy5x9zNZ8vw/s1600/Gun+girl+SB+1070+rally+in+Phoenix.jpg
You are definately right about that!!!! :wow: :cool:

GlockinNJ
06-03-2012, 19:17
I agree completely, here's something more entertaining :wavey:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zfai0H7c8io/TBFZNVAfDOI/AAAAAAAADmM/Fy5x9zNZ8vw/s1600/Gun+girl+SB+1070+rally+in+Phoenix.jpg

Is that a Montecristo logo on her hat? I'm in love...

HAIL CAESAR
06-03-2012, 20:07
If it's a new gun then 100 rounds should let you know if you've bought something decent or a POS. For a used gun that's already had a few hundred rounds through it a couple mags should let you know if it's going to run or not.
For Civilians you'll expend 3 or 4 rounds in a "Gun Fight" so if you can run a mag through your gun and not have any malfunctions then you've ran more ammo through it then you'll fire in a Life and Death situation.
Most Problem Guns do so right out of the box at which point they need to be sent back to the manufacture for repair or replacement. Any quality firearm of proper design should run right out of the box, 100%, NO exceptions. If you need to break the gun in or have to put 500 rounds through it before you'll trust it then you need to find a different gun to carry.
My Glock G26 4th Gen ran 100% right out of the box, the used Beretta 92F Compact I bought ran 100%, PX4 Storm 40cal ran 100%, The ATI 1911 was 100% once I got decent mags for it, my current XD45 is 100% and my PK380 has been 100%. I really don't see the need to waste ammo trying to "prove" that my gun is going to run, I know it'll run because it has been running 100% and as long as I feed it quality ammo and keep it clean it should continue to run 100%.

Anyone that reads the above.....totally disregard it. Total BS!

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 20:09
Anyone that reads the above.....totally disregard it. Total BS!

So, where's YOUR proof that it's B.S.? It's MY Opinion, same as you have YOUR Opinion and they're worth exactly what someone pays for them, ZERO.

HAIL CAESAR
06-03-2012, 20:18
So, where's YOUR proof that it's B.S.? It's MY Opinion, same as you have YOUR Opinion and they're worth exactly what someone pays for them, ZERO.

I was a LE trainer and range master for a decade or two. What you said above strikes in the face of any and all of my experience and anyone I can remember talking too with a hint of experience.

Total uninformed BS.

Deaf Smith
06-03-2012, 20:18
Doesn't matter if it's a Glock, 1911, or revolver.
How many rounds do you fire before you will trust a handgun?



With a good revolver, S&W, Ruger, Colt... maybe 30 rounds. I can usually tell if a wheelgun will go bang by checking the action, hammer and return spring power.

With well known simi-autos like Glocks, S&W M&P, Sigs, 1911s made by such as Brown, Nastoff, or Heinie, maybe 50 to 100 total.

All others at least 6 mags full from EACH mag one is gonna used in the gun for carry.

Deaf

dnuggett
06-03-2012, 20:27
And yet they depend on their sidearm to defend their life and the life of others. Go Figure.

I know. Personally I feel the shooting qualification should be much more stringent than it is in most departments. That's for a different thread I suppose.

GLOCK17DB9
06-03-2012, 20:29
250:dunno:

TN.Frank
06-03-2012, 20:31
I was a LE trainer and range master for a decade or two. What you said above strikes in the face of any and all of my experience and anyone I can remember talking too with a hint of experience.

Total uninformed BS.

Well, my experience as a firearms owner has taught me that any quality handgun should run 100% right out of the box and that 100 rounds should tell you if you've got a peach or a dud.
I know of no hard, fast rule that says you MUST run "X" number of rounds through a handgun before you deem it Carry Worthy.
It's like saying that you have to start your car/truck 100 times in a row before you trust it enough to drive it out of the garage. Either it'll start or it won't, either a handgun will run or it won't. No amount of testing will change that. You either have a quality, well built handgun that's designed from the factory to work or you've got junk that won't work in a million rounds of "break in".
If your Opinion is that you won't trust a handgun until you've ran 500 or 1000 rounds through it that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion but I'm also entitled to my opinion and it looks like from some of the posts to this thread that there are a few others that feel as I do, that the first 100 or so rounds will let you know if it's a keeper of if it's back to the factory for repair or replacement.


I know. Personally I feel the shooting qualification should be much more stringent than it is in most departments. That's for a different thread I suppose.

It's not only Law Enforcement but Security and Armored Car Companies too. When I shot the Certification Course for Well & Fargo Armored Division in Phoenix, AZ. in the early 90's the course of fire was three rounds of 50 shots each from 3 yards to 15 yards. My first round of fire I was in a hurry and had not shot my S&W M13 DA before. I made a score of 92% for that round. My second round of fire I slowed down and took time to place my shots and got a 96% score and on the third round of fire I was more use to the DA pull of the revolver and ended that round with a 98% score. Myself and one other guy in the class of around 20 guys were the only two to be in the 90's with our scores. He was an Ex-Military MP so I figured he'd been taught to shoot. Most of the other guys were in the 70's and low 80's. As Armored Car Messengers/Drivers/Guards I feel that we were actually in more harms way then LEO's because we regularly carried very large sums of cash into and out of Banks. To think that most probably couldn't hit a "Bad Guy" in a stress situation and may in fact hit an innocent by standard makes you think that training should have been more extensive but it was what it was.

GoBigOrange
06-03-2012, 20:35
200-300 FMJ. 100 or so JHP.

Frailer
06-03-2012, 20:55
I don't have a specific number.

But I'm much more likely to trust a gun than I am its magazines.

NeverMore1701
06-03-2012, 21:04
When I get a new pistol I'll run 200-250 rounds of range fodder and 50 Gold Dots through it (preferably all in one session) before I'll carry it. I also try to use at least 3 different mags each range session to make sure I don't have any duds.

Reb 56
06-03-2012, 21:10
1.

:supergrin:

I carry a GLOCK after all!!

As long as it's not a gen 4 9mm.

RYNOCG201
06-03-2012, 21:10
When I get a new pistol I'll run 200-250 rounds of range fodder and 50 Gold Dots through it (preferably all in one session) before I'll carry it. I also try to use at least 3 different mags each range session to make sure I don't have any duds.

I do something pretty similar to this, 250-300 as soon as I get it throw in some PD ammo with different mags and call it good. With my 27 the day after I got it I put 300 (mix of federal fmj, ranger fmj/jhp, GDHP) through as fast as I cold with zero malfunctions. Good enough for me.

nastytrigger
06-03-2012, 21:18
Before I carry a pistol, I'll shoot a couple hundred rounds. No set number, but I'll shoot 3-4 boxes of practice, FMJ, and at least one box of carry ammo before carrying (for function and POA).

Berto
06-03-2012, 21:23
After a few hundred rounds, I usually have a decent idea if the pistol is 'right' or not. The funny thing is, there's pistols out there now that specify break-in periods lasting nearly the service life of their recoil springs.:upeyes:
The ammo can be a big variable too; you can't expect the gun is fine with all jhps because it worked with one type. Or primer hardness in the tiny pistols (little hammers, little firing pins, etc)
The big thing with revolvers for me is making sure the gun runs fine when hot. I had one that would be Ok shooting low pressure ammo at a moderate pace, then bind when fed magnums and shot faster. The bbl/cyl gap was too tight, gun expanded from heat enough to rub.

faawrenchbndr
06-04-2012, 04:28
Tons of great opinions, then there is TNFrank's..............:faint:

Poster child for what NOT to do.

Nestor
06-04-2012, 04:56
Establishing confidence in the absolute reliability of gun over those few rounds is the hard part to anyone who doesn't need to rationalize. Otherwise it's very easy.

awoodpd13
06-04-2012, 05:02
Semi-autos: 100 malfunction-free carry rounds PER MAGAZINE.

Bob Hafler
06-04-2012, 05:05
I don't rely on a specific number of rounds. If the gun feels right and fires flawlessly on FMJ and HP's after an initial break in and a rapid fire session then I'm good with it. Different pistols take a diifernt round count before I'm comfortable with it.
I do break my pistols in slowly though cleaning and lubing and inspecting for unusual wear as I go. In the begining I might only put 50 rounds through the pistol each session.
Most of the pistols I've bought have worked 100% straight out of the box using this method . Might not be what everyone does, but it's worked fine for me.

Lowjiber
06-04-2012, 06:31
I'm a 200 round (no failures) guy.

However, I carry a Glock and would trust one right outta the box.

TN.Frank
06-04-2012, 07:00
Tons of great opinions, then there is TNFrank's..............:faint:

Poster child for what NOT to do.

Umm, if you wake up and actually read some of the posts you'll see others are saying the same thing that I am. 100 rounds for a new gun.
If it's a new gun then 100 rounds should let you know if you've bought something decent or a POS.

A box or so. If its going to jam it'll be right away. Otherwise it'll most likely be a part break and that could happen at round 1 or 1000.
I'm pretty trusting with my guns. I'll carry a new gun after 100 rounds, sometimes less. I seem to be an exception in this case but i guess its bc i've been fortunate to never get a lemon of a firearm. I mean after all they are built to shoot.
100 rounds fmj and 1 mag of whatever I plan to carry.


I love the way you can single me out and hack on me when others have said the exact same thing that I did. How about you pick on them too so you'll at least stay consistent with your abuse. Face it, you and Nestor and a few others don't like me and I'd be wrong no matter what I'd say.
You know what they say, Half the People you Hate don't know and the other Half Don't Care. I'm in the Second Half, I really don't CARE what you think about me or my opinions so you can do us all a favor and just stop being such a jerk about things.

SigFTW
06-04-2012, 07:23
When I bought a Kimber Solo (my 24/7 carry) I shot 300+ rounds of assorted reloads and store bought ammo to make sure it would preform. The gun ran flawless with reloads and HP, 115 and 124gr. Now I know and trust my Solo.

TN.Frank
06-04-2012, 07:33
I think 99% of all handguns manufactured by quality companies turn out a gun that's as close to 100% reliable as you can get with a machine. It's just we, as humans, tend to have a lack of trust and need proof before we give that trust.
The number of rounds before we trust is more a reflection on US then it is the gun.
Having actually worked in the Firearms Industry I know what goes on behind the scenes and how new guns are actually tested before they leave the factory so I think I probably tend to trust sooner then others would. I recently saw a piece about the new Sig P224(kind of a cut down P229) and after they prototyped the gun they ran countless thousands of rounds through it to make sure it was a good design that would work properly. Then once they started to manufacture it they pull a few guns off of the line and ran a few thousand rounds through each to test for reliability. The Manufacture does all the Reliability Testing for us, once we get the gun we just need to clean it, load it and shoot it enough to get familiar with the controls and sight picture then we're "good to go". There's really no need to run 500 or 1000 rounds through a gun since it won't MAKE the gun any more reliable then when you took it out of the box. It's either a good design and will function or it's not, more rounds down range isn't going to change that. You can't take a Lemon and run ammo through it and magically turn it into a reliable gun anymore then you can take a reliable gun and make it into a Lemon by running 1000 rounds through it. They'll either work or they won't.

Bob Hafler
06-04-2012, 07:39
I think it's pretty bad that we've come to the point that to reply to a post to get your opinion across we have to result to insults and flaming. Bottom line is if your satisfied with the way the gun works and your comfortable with it then it's a go. There is not a set pattern of rounds that must or should be fired to break in a gun. No two guns are the same,even if there the same brand and model. Once your happy with the gun and the mags your going to put in it for SD. My advice is before you carry any gun for SD is to personally inspect every round before you put in the mag. One slightly deformed round and all the breaking in,in the world won't mean a thing if it doesn't chamber because of the round.

NeverMore1701
06-04-2012, 10:28
I think 99% of all handguns manufactured by quality companies turn out a gun that's as close to 100% reliable as you can get with a machine. It's just we, as humans, tend to have a lack of trust and need proof before we give that trust.
The number of rounds before we trust is more a reflection on US then it is the gun.
Having actually worked in the Firearms Industry I know what goes on behind the scenes and how new guns are actually tested before they leave the factory so I think I probably tend to trust sooner then others would. I recently saw a piece about the new Sig P224(kind of a cut down P229) and after they prototyped the gun they ran countless thousands of rounds through it to make sure it was a good design that would work properly. Then once they started to manufacture it they pull a few guns off of the line and ran a few thousand rounds through each to test for reliability. The Manufacture does all the Reliability Testing for us, once we get the gun we just need to clean it, load it and shoot it enough to get familiar with the controls and sight picture then we're "good to go". There's really no need to run 500 or 1000 rounds through a gun since it won't MAKE the gun any more reliable then when you took it out of the box. It's either a good design and will function or it's not, more rounds down range isn't going to change that. You can't take a Lemon and run ammo through it and magically turn it into a reliable gun anymore then you can take a reliable gun and make it into a Lemon by running 1000 rounds through it. They'll either work or they won't.

Oh HELL no!


:faint:

Wil Ufgood
06-04-2012, 10:35
Frank, what firearms company did you work for?

TN.Frank
06-04-2012, 10:52
Frank, what firearms company did you work for?

McMillian Arms, 7th Ave and Deer Valley Rd., Phoenix, AZ. Jan. 1989 to Jan. 1990. If a gun we built didn't function it didn't leave the factory.

Wil Ufgood
06-04-2012, 11:09
McMillian Arms, 7th Ave and Deer Valley Rd., Phoenix, AZ. Jan. 1989 to Jan. 1990. If a gun we built didn't function it didn't leave the factory.

Seems like a cool place to work, why did you leave?

TN.Frank
06-04-2012, 11:35
Seems like a cool place to work, why did you leave?

Wes Harris was in the process of buying Gale and Rock out of the Firearms side of the company. Kelly ran the Stock part of the company over at 14th Ave so that wasn't going anywhere. I'd been there for almost a year driving form South Tempe, AZ. to N.Phoenix without the hit of a raise. I ask Rock about it and he said I'd have to talk to Wes. I talked to Wes and a couple weeks went by and I heard nothing form him. I ask him again and still nothing so, being young and foolish I quit.
It was a heck of a cool place to work. I ran the CNC Mill making receivers and other parts for the rifles. I ran the cut saw where we'd cut blocks of metal to proper length for receivers then we'd send them out to be heat treated BEFORE we'd machine them, that helped to keep tolerances tight but it played hell on the 3/8" end mills we'd use to machine them with in the CNC mill. I was changing end mills about every 6 or 8 receivers. I also ran the glass bead blaster, deep hole drill for the barrels and was learning how to run the button rifling machine. Also got to acid etch the sn# on the guns and run errands taking parts to a place in S. Phoenix for Black Oxide coating. The FUN part of the job was when Steve and I got to take the M-88's to the range once a week to proof test, cycle test and sight them in at 100 yards. We'd take 24-26 guns and a boat load of 50 BMG API stuff that the Navy provided for out testing and after running a proof round through the gun we'd check it for cracks or anything odd. If it looked ok then we'd function test it with 5 rounds of 50BMG as fast as we could fire it and we'd do that 3 times for a total of 15 rounds. Another look over and we'd settle in to dial the rifles in at 100 yards.
You'd come in at the end of the day beat to death from all that 50cal API you'd shot but it sure was fun.
Once a month we'd hit Ben Avery just North of Phoenix for some 600 yard testing. Steve(about 5'8" and all of 125lbs soaking wet) did most of the shooting at 600 yards but I did actually get to do it once and it was a real hoot.
I actually was able to cut a 10" group for 5 shots at that range. Those M-88's sure could shoot.
It's one of the few jobs that I'll never forget. I got to meet Gale McMillian and get to know him a bit, got to build and shoot guns that our SEALs used in combat and got to know a few pretty cool guys that I worked with.

12131
06-04-2012, 11:35
How many rounds do you fire before trusting?
For me, 500 without a single malfunction, before I can trust it to depend my life on. Of course, you can never predict when Mr. Murphy will rear his ugly head, but that's my general rule of thumb.

faawrenchbndr
06-04-2012, 11:54
Seems like a cool place to work, why did you leave?


:whistling:

TN.Frank
06-04-2012, 12:12
:whistling:

And just what is that suppose to mean? For God sake, I was 28 years old at the time and not as accountable for my life as I should have been. Hind sight is always 20/20.

faawrenchbndr
06-04-2012, 12:35
Does it have to mean anything? :dunno:

Wil Ufgood
06-04-2012, 13:30
Does it have to mean anything? :dunno:

:whistling:

Nestor
06-04-2012, 13:44
The Manufacture does all the Reliability Testing for us, once we get the gun we just need to clean it, load it and shoot it enough to get familiar with the controls and sight picture then we're "good to go".

If that's what You believe in Frank...fine.
You also said that You feel safe about particular firearm that You are going to use for self defense purpose because You read good things about it in the newspapers.

From all I've read these guns will eat just about anything so I'm not really worried about it.

Well, no wonder as the newspapers which are living off the manufacturer's commercials are very objective in their testing procedures...but if I can remember well, You also said that You feel safe about particular firearm that You are going to use for self defense purpose because someone owned it before You and did all the reliability tests for You...just like the newspapers and manufacturers.
Well at least he said so when he was selling the firearm to You.

Plus however many hundreds of rounds the guy that owned it before me put through it. Gun was made in 2006 so I'm sure it's had more then a few rounds run down the bore.

Excellent.
Sounds like anything, but common sense.
You see, believe in whatever You want, but don't be surprised with people calling You BS on such statements.
Is it about the sympathy or the lack of it as You were trying to suggest here?
Is it about stalking as You were trying to suggest to the moderators?
I truly don't think so...what I can see is that some of us are trying to warn the potential readers that such philosophy of gun ownership may lead them straight to 6 feet under.

faawrenchbndr
06-04-2012, 13:51
No man made product is perfect.
Manufacturers, pistol smiths & craftsmen do try to achieve a
perfect product line. I for one, will not trust MY family's lives
to the word of a seller, gun shop or manufacturer.

Opinions areother other side of the coin that does not get much
attention. I thank most for theirs, many match up with what I
was thinking, a few do not.

Looks like 200-300 is the average here,.........:whistling:

themighty9mm
06-04-2012, 17:21
1000 before I trust my life to it

Wil Ufgood
06-04-2012, 17:53
Well I never really answered so here's what I do.

I'll use my G22 as an example

I always have six go to mags.

Each mag is filled to capacity and slow fired; this let's me get a pretty good feel for the pistol. Trigger pull, POA/POI etc.

Mags are filled to capacity and rapid fired, allows me to check trigger reset, feeding and cycling.

Mags filled again slow fire strong hand, repeat support hand.

I'll then do reload drills, speed reload, mag exchange, slide lock reload and disabled reload drills.

I do this not only to test magazines and the pistol's mechanical reliability but MY reliabilty using that particular pistol.

If I have one arm disabled, will the weapon cycle for ME shooting one handed?

Can I reload this weapon one handed?

Just some examples of my thought process when I test a new gun. Again only my opinion.

jprj
06-04-2012, 18:00
Most people that I know just uses a hundred. Dont know the practical reason for the count.

TN.Frank
06-04-2012, 18:32
I think it's mostly people getting use to the gun rather then shooting it to test reliability. Most manufactures have they're crap together these days and actually turn out a pretty good product. I think Glock, H&K, Sig, Beretta, Walther, Springfield, et al turn out some pretty good guns. We're living in the Golden Age here folks, never before have we has so many quality handguns to choose from for self defense.

HAIL CAESAR
06-04-2012, 20:20
If it's a new gun then 100 rounds should let you know if you've bought something decent or a POS. For a used gun that's already had a few hundred rounds through it a couple mags should let you know if it's going to run or not.
For Civilians you'll expend 3 or 4 rounds in a "Gun Fight" so if you can run a mag through your gun and not have any malfunctions then you've ran more ammo through it then you'll fire in a Life and Death situation.
Most Problem Guns do so right out of the box at which point they need to be sent back to the manufacture for repair or replacement. Any quality firearm of proper design should run right out of the box, 100%, NO exceptions. If you need to break the gun in or have to put 500 rounds through it before you'll trust it then you need to find a different gun to carry.


The bold above is BS. I have seen many guns that would choke a couple rounds then run fine for a couple mags then choke again. So if you run just a couple of mags YOU WILL NEVER know this.

If it chokes once every fifth mag....do you have a 1 in 5 chance in a fight that the gun will malfunction?? Is that OK for you??

2. I have seen your posts before. you usually post " Yeah, I ran 5 (8,12, or 17) rounds through this little beauty and she runs like a top. I am carrying her now." I have never seen any posts of yours were you actually shot the damn gun much before selling it.

So I think your "a couple of mags and it's good" premise is BS.

AND I call BS that you actually shot "a couple of mags and it's good" before carrying it.

faawrenchbndr
06-04-2012, 20:26
I think it's mostly people getting use to the gun rather then shooting it to test reliability. Most manufactures have they're crap together these days and actually turn out a pretty good product. I think Glock, H&K, Sig, Beretta, Walther, Springfield, et al turn out some pretty good guns. We're living in the Golden Age here folks, never before have we has so many quality handguns to choose from for self defense.

Ain't got a clue,...........:faint:

Nakanokalronin
06-05-2012, 09:05
I think it's mostly people getting use to the gun rather then shooting it to test reliability. Most manufactures have they're crap together these days and actually turn out a pretty good product. I think Glock, H&K, Sig, Beretta, Walther, Springfield, et al turn out some pretty good guns. We're living in the Golden Age here folks, never before have we has so many quality handguns to choose from for self defense.

To be honest, I feel most manufactures today are using us as beta testers and then fix the most common problems they see the guns come back for. It's quite rare that a new gun comes out that dosn't have first run issues. The only one I can think of in awhile is the Shield. Beyond that, there are common issues that still randomly occur in guns that were introduced 6+ years ago.

No matter the brand, every time I buy a pistol I expect it to have a malfunction. When I go to the range the first time, I try and bring every variety of ammo I can just to see what it will and will not feed. Now 99% of the time the gun runs perfectly, but that dosn't mean anything since my fist time out is usually only 100-300 rounds.

We're at the golden age of having a very large selection of pistols to choose from for carry and home defense. We're at the guinea pig age of reliability and quality. Some are much better than others but I'd never trust a mass produced product to be perfect just because we have advanced so much in technology and are able to use materials for products we used to think were impossible.

Ever since polymer has been widely accepted, manufactures can swoosh guns out the door quick enough to satisfy the masses long enough to sit back, get feedback and take the appropriate actions to produce an actual final product. Even after they have all the "bugs" worked out, there is always a chance that a lot of pistols may have had a single machine bit just dull enough to alter the integrity of a part. It may go unnoticed until enough reports come back and then it's either silently taken care of or the company issues a recall.

Just because someone had no problems in a few hundred rounds with one gun or a similar model doesn't mean you won't. I had a DB380 that had the trigger break (no reset) after round 25. If I fired a mag or two through it I would have never found out what a POS it really was. I got rid of that thing ASAP after it came back from being "fixed".

My dad was someone who only put a few mags or a box through a gun at max and deemed in GTG. I had to teach him what could happen if you don't thoroughly test a gun before using it for defense. Now he at least puts 200-300rds in any gun he buys, new or used.

Bottom line, don't take the word of someone selling you a gun or that the manufacture obviously made everything perfect from the factory, thinking they sent it out only after someone sat with a handful of gauges checking every nook and cranny of the gun.

Lior
06-05-2012, 09:07
The average number of rounds I have fired through new guns before carrying them is zero.

TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 09:35
The average number of rounds I have fired through new guns before carrying them is zero.

Wow, I got yelled at for only putting 100 or so through a new gun, you'll carry with zero rounds through a new gun? You better duck and cover there pard, they're fixin' to stone you to death over that statement.

Nakanokalronin
06-05-2012, 09:39
The average number of rounds I have fired through new guns before carrying them is zero.

Is that because you clean them after you shoot them, load them and then carry, hence not shooting them and immediately putting them in a holster? If by new you mean bought and immediately stuffed in a holster, well.....

Lior
06-05-2012, 09:49
Sorry to sound heretic fellas. I usually fire new guns a week or two after purchasing them, once I can get in some serious range time. It's not like I'm recklessly endangering myself by carrying a gun that has only been proof fired at the factory.

How many times do people here test their airbags before driving their new vehicles?

SPECOPS72
06-05-2012, 09:50
a few magazines......

Nakanokalronin
06-05-2012, 10:07
Sorry to sound heretic fellas. I usually fire new guns a week or two after purchasing them, once I can get in some serious range time. It's not like I'm recklessly endangering myself by carrying a gun that has only been proof fired at the factory.

How many times do people here test their airbags before driving their new vehicles?

If the airbags were only $10-$30 each and I could easily test (without damage to the vehicle) and swap in a new one, I probably would. :tongueout:

There is also the seat belt that can actually be tested.

Not sure how you buy your guns or what the law is on the amount of guns you can own but if you have a few that can be carried, carry the one that is tested until you can shoot the new one.

byf43
06-05-2012, 10:11
I think 99% of all handguns manufactured by quality companies turn out a gun that's as close to 100% reliable as you can get with a machine. It's just we, as humans, tend to have a lack of trust and need proof before we give that trust.
The number of rounds before we trust is more a reflection on US then it is the gun.
Having actually worked in the Firearms Industry I know what goes on behind the scenes and how new guns are actually tested before they leave the factory so I think I probably tend to trust sooner then others would. I recently saw a piece about the new Sig P224(kind of a cut down P229) and after they prototyped the gun they ran countless thousands of rounds through it to make sure it was a good design that would work properly. Then once they started to manufacture it they pull a few guns off of the line and ran a few thousand rounds through each to test for reliability. The Manufacture does all the Reliability Testing for us, once we get the gun we just need to clean it, load it and shoot it enough to get familiar with the controls and sight picture then we're "good to go". There's really no need to run 500 or 1000 rounds through a gun since it won't MAKE the gun any more reliable then when you took it out of the box. It's either a good design and will function or it's not, more rounds down range isn't going to change that. You can't take a Lemon and run ammo through it and magically turn it into a reliable gun anymore then you can take a reliable gun and make it into a Lemon by running 1000 rounds through it. They'll either work or they won't.

Frank, I'm not going to 'hi-light' any of your text, but, I do want to shoot a few holes (pardon the pun) into some of the statements made.

First of all. . . .
Not 'every' firearm is tested (I mean REALLY tested), as you believe.
Yes, a DESIGN is tested thoroughly, BUT, not every firearm is tested and re-tested.

Case in point.
I know that S&W will 'test fire' revolvers, by firing every-other-chamber, in the cylinder.
Yes. . . . test fire.

Now, what happens when YOU (meaning 'whoever') buy that mdl 642 (just as an example - use any make/model you want) and find out that one or two chambers are 'tight' or 'small' and have hard/non-existent extraction????

I've seen it happen, first-hand. Granted, it was a Dan Wesson and not Smith & Wesson.
It was my 44VH-8. Two chambers were 'undersize' and extraction was difficult, at best.


Now, let's go back to S&W.
I bought a mdl 39-2, that was a "Jam-o-matic".
Two magazines full, and that POS went back to S&W.
They worked on it, and worked on it.
When I got it back, they had replaced magazines, altered the feedramp, and 'tuned' the extractor.

I didn't trust it, even though it 'ran'.
Sold it after a few rounds. Gone. Glad of it.


Now, let's look at the Gen4 Glock fiasco.
More issues with the Gen4 guns, than Glock will admit.
Granted, they are fixin' these guns (from what I've heard!), but, still. . .not 100% out of the box!!
At one point in time, Glock pistols 'ran' 100%. Now, are they REALLY trusted, after having extraction/ejection/FTF/FTF/FTE problems???
Not 100%. (That's why I shoot/practice with my G26, G19, G23. I want to make sure they're 100%.)

ANY pistol (or rifle) CAN have problems, or CAN run 100%.
I just know that I (yes, me!) won't trust my life (or my loved ones' lives) to a firearm that I (yes me!) haven't tested to PROVE that it's 100%!!!!!!!

Another example - Marlin.
Marlin HAD a GREAT reputation. Now. . . . not-so-much.
When Remington bought Marlin, they put the 'old guys' out to pasture, and also wanted to produce 2 guns every 130 seconds. (Or something like that. I forget exact quotas.)
I've personally seen some pretty BAD stuff come from Marlington/Remlin, since the buy-out.

I also only carry/use magazines that have been tested thoroughly.
Ever drop a magazine and have it get dented/damaged, and stops being 100%??? I have. Colt 1911 magazine. Dropped it on concrete, and bent a feed lip.

I honestly believe that you need to re-think your 'trust' in what could possibly save your life, or your loved ones' lives.

TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 10:11
The bold above is BS.
I think pretty much everything YOU post is B.S. so I guess that makes us even.


If it chokes once every fifth mag....do you have a 1 in 5 chance in a fight that the gun will malfunction?? Is that OK for you??
I wouldn't own a handgun that was that unreliable so it's a moot point as far as I'm concerned.



So I think your "a couple of mags and it's good" premise is BS.
Don't really care what you think.


AND I call BS that you actually shot "a couple of mags and it's good" before carrying it.
And again I say, pretty much everything YOU post is B.S. so have a nice day, I'm off to cast some bullets.

TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 10:14
If the airbags were only $10-$30 each and I could easily test (without damage to the vehicle) and swap in a new one, I probably would. :tongueout:


But then you'd have another new, untested air bag that you'd have to stake your life on, now wouldn't you. LOL

Nakanokalronin
06-05-2012, 10:19
But then you'd have another new, untested air bag that you'd have to stake your life on, now wouldn't you. LOL

At least I know the sensor worked though! The car/gun analogies never really work that well. Shooting bullets through a gun is not about replacing parts after every round fired like you would with an airbag every time it deployed.

A car analogy that can work is about breaking in a brand new motor. You run it slow for awhile to make sure everything wears in just right and then after so many miles, it's GTG. Doesn't mean it won't break down the line but I'm not going to buy a brand new car with 12 miles on it and immediately go on a cross country road trip. If I bought a used car, you better believe I would do a complete tune-up,inspection and adequate test drive before I dared an attempt at a long distance trip since I have no idea what the previous owner did or how they drove the car and I'm sure not taking their word for it.

CBennett
06-05-2012, 10:20
Much the same as many have said...around 200 "practice type rounds" and 2 boxes of what ever I decide to carry for CC to make sure they work..THEY are the ones that COUNT!

Wil Ufgood
06-05-2012, 11:24
And again I say, pretty much everything YOU post is B.S. so have a nice day, I'm off to cast some bullets.

http://pageofvomit.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/forrest_gump_all_i_have_to_say.png

faawrenchbndr
06-05-2012, 12:44
A man who fires 14 rounds and calls a weapon good,
is doubting a trained firearms instructor?! :dunno:

I for one respect Hail Caesar's opinions......... :thumbsup:

Bren
06-05-2012, 12:56
:rofl:

Function Check, Done! 14rds that costs money.

Same here. I like to check the sights and see how a used gun functions. On a new gun of decent quality? Load it and carry.

Rick305
06-05-2012, 13:00
The average number of rounds I have fired through new guns before carrying them is zero.

Same with me. I only buy quality firearms for carry. M&P , XD , and Glock. I take them all to the range ASAP , but do not hesitate to carry fresh out the box !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Bren
06-05-2012, 13:05
I was a LE trainer and range master for a decade or two. What you said above strikes in the face of any and all of my experience and anyone I can remember talking too with a hint of experience.

Total uninformed BS.

Beginning in 1991:
Ky. Dept. of Criminal Justice Training Police Firearms Instructor
Ky. Dept. of Corrections Pistol, Shotgun and Rifle Instructor
NRA LEAD Law Enforcement Firerarms Instructor
NRA basic Pistol/Personal Protection in the H9ome Instructor
TDSA Advanced Pistol Instructor
U.S. Army Drill Sergeant (BRM/ARM instructor)
and several more.

I'm with TN.Frank - 100 rounds is far more than I'd shoot to test even a duty gun.

A common thing I see on Glock Talk is people combining a poor knowledge of guns with a fear of nearly everything.

Rick305
06-05-2012, 13:10
Awesome post Bren !!!!! Classic .

Nestor
06-05-2012, 13:29
Sorry to sound heretic fellas. I usually fire new guns a week or two after purchasing them, once I can get in some serious range time. It's not like I'm recklessly endangering myself by carrying a gun that has only been proof fired at the factory.

How many times do people here test their airbags before driving their new vehicles?

Hey Lior!
Did your government set any limit on the number of ammo purchased/per year for each firearm that You own?

Nestor
06-05-2012, 13:47
Same with me. I only buy quality firearms for carry. M&P , XD , and Glock. I take them all to the range ASAP , but do not hesitate to carry fresh out the box !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

No mechanical device can ever be made perfect...Sig P250 or Glock Gen4 story comes to mind as the examples.
Also no pistol can be called reliable if its magazine has a faulty spring.
Without conducting such test on your own your needs may not be satisfied.
Determining your needs is where your efforts should be focused.

TheExplorer
06-05-2012, 13:53
At least 100 rounds of target and 100 rounds of self defense.

Wil Ufgood
06-05-2012, 13:54
Oh boy, this is gonna be good :rofl:

Nestor
06-05-2012, 14:11
Don't really care what you think.

Hey How About A Nice Big Cup Of I Don't Care What You Think?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Admon/mug.jpg

faawrenchbndr
06-05-2012, 14:20
Beginning in 1991:
Ky. Dept. of Criminal Justice Training Police Firearms Instructor
Ky. Dept. of Corrections Pistol, Shotgun and Rifle Instructor
NRA LEAD Law Enforcement Firerarms Instructor
NRA basic Pistol/Personal Protection in the H9ome Instructor
TDSA Advanced Pistol Instructor
U.S. Army Drill Sergeant (BRM/ARM instructor)
and several more.

I'm with TN.Frank - 100 rounds is far more than I'd shoot to test even a duty gun.

A common thing I see on Glock Talk is people combining a poor knowledge of guns with a fear of nearly everything.


Hmmmmmm, nice resume. Can't say I agree with your beliefs though.
Guess I'm just unqualified............:dunno:

Wil Ufgood
06-05-2012, 14:35
I'm qualified, I've seen every episode of Top Shot, TWICE!

faawrenchbndr
06-05-2012, 14:46
I'm qualified, I've seen every episode of Top Shot, TWICE!

Over twenty years in the military can not compare to a Prison Guard. :whistling:

TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 15:36
So, others hold the same opinion as I do and get NO flack from the local GlockTalk big mouths but I get a damn ear full. Something just ain't right here. So, how about beating up on the other guys in this thread that feel the same way that I feel or do you guys only pick on little ol' me?
Also, let's say you do your 500 round test and all goes well. What's stopping the gun from messing up on say round number 501? So, you going to start running 600 through it now?
Firearms are machines, if they're well designed machines they'll run and work right out of the box. All a body is doing by running a few rounds through the gun when they get it is seeing where the sights are adjusted and where it's going to hit, how the trigger feels and if it's going to run and like many here have said(as I have) 100 rounds is more then enough to tell if you've got a keeper or a lemon that needs to be sent back to the factory.
I guess some folks here have money to blow on "test" ammo but many of us here don't but then again we normally buy a quality gun that'll run right out of the box to start with.

HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 15:43
Sorry to sound heretic fellas. I usually fire new guns a week or two after purchasing them, once I can get in some serious range time. It's not like I'm recklessly endangering myself by carrying a gun that has only been proof fired at the factory.

How many times do people here test their airbags before driving their new vehicles?

Not all guns are test fired at the factory. Actually very few are.

HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 15:49
Beginning in 1991:
Ky. Dept. of Criminal Justice Training Police Firearms Instructor
Ky. Dept. of Corrections Pistol, Shotgun and Rifle Instructor
NRA LEAD Law Enforcement Firerarms Instructor
NRA basic Pistol/Personal Protection in the H9ome Instructor
TDSA Advanced Pistol Instructor
U.S. Army Drill Sergeant (BRM/ARM instructor)
and several more.

I'm with TN.Frank - 100 rounds is far more than I'd shoot to test even a duty gun.

A common thing I see on Glock Talk is people combining a poor knowledge of guns with a fear of nearly everything.

100 rounds in a revolver??? Yep, I'd be good with that.

100 rounds in an auto loader??? Ehhh..I'd like to shoot it a bit more.

Problem is this guy posted "a couple of mags will do". Even if "a couple" is 3 and the mags hold 17 rounds each....that is 51. So that is not exactly the 100 he is touting.

TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 15:50
Not all guns are test fired at the factory. Actually very few are.

So where to they get the spent cases that are suppose to be with each and every new handgun produced over the last few years? I guess the "Case Fairy" just magically puts those cases in the little envelope and in the gun box before they're shipped out. Nope, sorry, you're wrong about the factory not test firing each and every new gun they produce. You have to run a proof round through the gun, that's how it gets it's "Proof Marks" and you have to function test each and every new gun before it's sent out, that's why 99.9% of new guns are dirty right from the factory, they've been test fired.


Problem is this guy posted "a couple of mags will do". Even if "a couple" is 3 and the mags hold 17 rounds each....that is 51. So that is not exactly the 100 he is touting.

Read what I wrote again, I said a coupe mags for a USED semi, NOT a new one. You figure most used semis have had at least 100 rounds run through them.

HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 15:53
And most morons buy the cheapest ball ammo to "test" a auto and one box of the good stuff to carry. They shoot the ball and never fire one round of the good JHP as "that stuff is expensive!!".:upeyes:

oldman11
06-05-2012, 15:55
A full load for each mag in a pistol, and 2 cylinder loads in a revolver.

uglyblackguns
06-05-2012, 15:57
Beginning in 1991:
Ky. Dept. of Criminal Justice Training Police Firearms Instructor
Ky. Dept. of Corrections Pistol, Shotgun and Rifle Instructor
NRA LEAD Law Enforcement Firerarms Instructor
NRA basic Pistol/Personal Protection in the H9ome Instructor
TDSA Advanced Pistol Instructor
U.S. Army Drill Sergeant (BRM/ARM instructor)
and several more.

I'm with TN.Frank - 100 rounds is far more than I'd shoot to test even a duty gun.

A common thing I see on Glock Talk is people combining a poor knowledge of guns with a fear of nearly everything.

+1
I have a new G19 and only put 100 rnds through it before I started carrying it. Damn I better go get 10000 rounds so I can make sure this thing will work ok before I head out and get into a gun battle around the corner.

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HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 15:57
Over twenty years in the military can not compare to a Prison Guard. :whistling:

In all fairness I have shot with some folks in Corrections. The States of NY, Cali, Illinois, NV, and Florida have great trainers and Special Teams. The Feds do too. (I know I have missed a few so no insult to omitted.)

But in fairness again; the States without HUGE gang issues in prison tend to be a bunch of friends that get together and shoot or a bunch of political suck asses.

Arc Angel
06-05-2012, 16:02
For, 'verification' on a metal frame pistol? One or two hundred rounds is sufficient. On a polymer frame pistol? Three to five hundred rounds get run through a polymer frame before I'll feel safe carrying it. (I've gone as high as one thousand rounds, each, on two polymer frame G-21's; but this was with a pair of sporadically defective, problem Glocks.)



NOTE: I believe it was, 'PJ Helmer' (?) who once reported that the Illinois State Police ran 750 rounds through each of their new G-22's before releasing them for field service.

uglyblackguns
06-05-2012, 16:06
And like many of you here I have trusted my life on firearms I was unable to test. Such as a 240b that I was given in country got to fire two bursts from and called good. Then carried that right out of the wire relying on that gun to save me and my guys.

I think more should be spent on training so you will know how to react in a gun fight. Not worrying if your gun will go boom when you pull the trigger. Because guess what no gun will go boom every single time. Knowing what to do when that happens will save you or you can just stand there and say "but I put 1000 rounds of fmj and 250 rnds of jhp, this isn't supposed to happen."

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TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 16:10
I think more should be spent on training so you will know how to react in a gun fight. Not worrying if your gun will go boom when you pull the trigger. Because guess what no gun will go boom every single time. Knowing what to do when that happens will save you or you can just stand there and say "but I put 1000 rounds of fmj and 250 rnds of jhp, this isn't supposed to happen."


Finally, we get a piece of advice that we all can actually take to heart and use. Thank You.

HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 16:12
So where to they get the spent cases that are suppose to be with each and every new handgun produced over the last few years? I guess the "Case Fairy" just magically puts those cases in the little envelope and in the gun box before they're shipped out. Nope, sorry, you're wrong about the factory not test firing each and every new gun they produce. You have to run a proof round through the gun, that's how it gets it's "Proof Marks" and you have to function test each and every new gun before it's sent out, that's why 99.9% of new guns are dirty right from the factory, they've been test fired.



Read what I wrote again, I said a coupe mags for a USED semi, NOT a new one. You figure most used semis have had at least 100 rounds run through them.


IF it is used...do you know and trust the guy selling it? Is it a known gun to you?? Or are you just taking his/her word it is a reliable gun??

Again, how in the heck would you know it is reliable unless YOU do the shooting? How would you know the "used" gun had a couple hundred fired through it? Most buyers buy a a gun and shoot half a box of ammo and call it good. (Especially true the higher caliber guns or ones that have more recoil. Not so true with .22 LR.)

To the fired cases;

Wow, were do I start. Not all companies do it as only a handful of states require it.

The companies that do just shoot two rounds and throw them in an envelope. Wow, two rounds. Heck of a reliability test.

To that end; I once bought a expensive handgun that came with a big Zip-Lock baggy full of "test-fired" brass that was shot through the gun at the factory to prove reliability. So it was much to my surprise to find the barrel was short chambered (i.e. chamber never cut). You couldn't have beat a round in it with a hammer, but somehow the gun fired at the factory and made all those fired casings.:upeyes:

faawrenchbndr
06-05-2012, 16:24
Never mind............this is just getting retarded.:faint:

HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 16:53
Never mind............this is just getting retarded.:faint:

I agree! It's guys like this one that makes me rethink "SHALL ISSUE, period" to "shall issue after we test the heck out of you".:rofl:

faawrenchbndr
06-05-2012, 16:54
Sad part is,........I started this disaster! :faint:

Some people just don't get it,........

HAIL CAESAR
06-05-2012, 17:00
Sad part is,........I started this disaster! :faint:

Some people just don't get it,........

Huh...I thought the shell fairy started it??:rofl:


Sorry but I lost it at post 119. The guy is so very much misinformed.

TN.Frank
06-05-2012, 17:04
IF it is used...do you know and trust the guy selling it? Is it a known gun to you?? Or are you just taking his/her word it is a reliable gun??


That's exactly why I run a full mag of ammo through the gun with each mag that the gun has with it. That way I can verify the sights and make sure it'll run with the ammo I'm using.
I'd never trust that a used gun is just going to run until I shoot it myself. In fact, I'd be more inclined to trust a new gun to run then a used one because you just can't say how the used gun has been taken care of.
Shoot as many rounds through a new or used handgun as you can afford, if that's a box of 50 that's good, if you want to run 1000 through it and can afford it that's good too but it gets to a point where you're just wasting ammo beyond a certain number of rounds. Either it's going to work or it's not and even if it's working you never can tell when it'll malfunction so even after all your "Test Rounds" the one that stops the gun from running might be the one you fired after you've tested it and deemed it Carry Worthy.
To date I've ran 26 rounds through the PK380 that I picked up. The first 8 ran perfect, if I'd have had to use the gun to defend my life it'd have worked and I'd have put all rounds on target. The second 8+1 ran perfect, same deal, if I'd have had to pull the gun and defend my life with it there would have been zero problems. Same deal for the last 8+1 I ran through it, zero malfunctions, all the rounds in the 10 ring at 7 yards. Now since I've never had to pull a gun to defend my life and since I've pulled the PK380 a total of 3 times for a "Function" check and since it's ran perfectly each and every time I feel fine knowing that if I ever did have to pull it and defend my life with it that it'd work. I don't have to beat it to death with a 500 round torture test to Prove anything, the gun runs and should keep running if it's ever called upon.

I agree! It's guys like this one that makes me rethink "SHALL ISSUE, period" to "shall issue after we test the heck out of you".:rofl:

Think you need to add a few more guys to your list and not just single me out. Remember, there's quite a few here that believe just as I do. As far as packin' a firearm, I've done it since the age of 18, I'll be 51 in a couple days, that's 33 years without incident. I think that's a pretty good record for safety and NOT having to kill someone with the gun I'm carrying.

faawrenchbndr
06-05-2012, 17:15
Think you need to add a few more guys to your list and not just single me out. Remember, there's quite a few here that believe just as I do.......


Five to about fifty,........hmmmmm.:whistling:

Wil Ufgood
06-05-2012, 18:56
500 round "torture" test, Bahahahahahahahaha!

Lior
06-05-2012, 21:21
Hey Lior!
Did your government set any limit on the number of ammo purchased/per year for each firearm that You own?

Hi Adam.
The average Joe (if there is such a thing) is allowed to own and carry a grand total of 50 rounds with a private gun license.

Fortunately, IPSC shooters are not limited in ammo, as long as they buy rounds annually from their shooting club.

MrGlock21
06-05-2012, 21:34
"Trusting" is an ongoing progress, and I shoot what I carry on a regular basis. Potential troublemakers will be singled out.

A newly aquired gun usually gets a range session with 300 FMJ and 100 HP rounds.
There are always exceptions, however, a couple of months ago I packed a new G27 after shooting 3 mags, and an LC9 after 40 rounds.

Jack23
06-05-2012, 21:45
Years ago I settled on the number 1000. Maybe that is way more than necessary but after a thousand rounds I have total confidence in a fire arm. If a problem is going to present itself it will most likely do it well before you have fired 1000 rounds through it. Also I have become extremely familiar with it and know it's limitations and capabilities which also adds to my confidence in it.

carbuncle
06-05-2012, 21:50
Depends on the gun and the source: a Glock I'd toss in a holster and carry after a function check. I well-used, multiple-owner 3rd Gen Smith or similar pistol I'd be looking at 200 rounds minimum. 1911, new, probably a few hundred. Revolver, a few cylinders.

Posted from my phone, with a baby in the other hand.

brisk21
06-05-2012, 22:04
Has anyone read about a single incident where a person with a CCW tried to defend their life and the gun jammed, which caused them to get killed? Is this really something to worry about? Has anyone actually thought about the odds of getting attacked, then computed that with the odds of their gun of choice actually malfunctioning in the first 5-15 rounds they fire? It just seems like there is alot more worry about reliablilty than whats really necessary. Me, I'll put a few magazines through the gun. If it runs, im good.

Schaffer
06-06-2012, 00:22
Frank if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.

Add a zero to that.

Nestor
06-06-2012, 05:02
Hi Adam.
The average Joe (if there is such a thing) is allowed to own and carry a grand total of 50 rounds with a private gun license.

Fortunately, IPSC shooters are not limited in ammo, as long as they buy rounds annually from their shooting club.

Thanks!

TN.Frank
06-06-2012, 07:09
Depends on the gun and the source: a Glock I'd toss in a holster and carry after a function check.

Watch out, you're walking on thin ice there pard but then you're user name isn't "TN.Frank" so you'll not get any flack over what you just posted.
I find it "funny" that a question is ask then when I give an answer, one that's not much different(or any different in some cases) I get poked fun at and ridiculed for it but NO ONE else, with the same answer gets a word spoken to them.
Does anyone else find that kind of odd?
Also, the question is about Trusting the handgun to function but a couple here go off on the tangent of "Muscle Memory" and other Training Issues, not firearms functions issues simply to try and make their point that I'm wrong about the number of rounds I put through a handgun before I feel it's reliable.

I've ask the question before and never got an answer, I'll ask again. If you're putting 500 rounds through a handgun before you'll trust it then what's stopping that handgun from having a malfunction at round number 501? I think all you're little tests really just give you a false sense of security because there's no guarantees that any bugs will show up after just 500 rounds. So, are you now going to put 700 rounds through your handgun before you'll trust it, how about 1000, maybe 1500 just to be sure?
A quality handgun from a well known manufacture who's used a good design should be able to produce a product that will function as close to 100% as is humanly possible Right Out of The Box. If the handguns you're buying won't do that then you need to buy different handguns.

Now, all you Internet Bullies, beat me up a little more for posting stuff that others have also said, since you don't have the guts to go after anyone else but me.

faawrenchbndr
06-06-2012, 07:13
Seriously.........?! :dunno:


You got issues.....:rofl:

TN.Frank
06-06-2012, 07:21
Seriously.........?! :dunno:


You got issues.....:rofl:

Really, you say I have issues. You're the one who asked a question then proceeded to gang up on me with a few of your GT buddies and slam me about how "wrong" I was when many others here held the same exact view point as I did.
You're the one with Issues, not me. Don't ask the question if you can't accept the answer and don't tell me I'm wrong because my view isn't in lock step with yours. Both my XD and PK have run 100%, I see no need to run 500 rounds through them to prove anything to anyone about how they run, I'm perfectly happy with the amount of ammo I've ran through them and I'm 99.9% sure that if/when they'd be called on to defend my life they'll work.

faawrenchbndr
06-06-2012, 07:32
Nice avatar,........bye bye 'Frank! :wavey:

Nestor
06-06-2012, 09:03
Is it time for a dating advice now?

professorpinki
06-06-2012, 09:13
I clean and inspect, then burn however many mags that the weapon comes with through,then two rounds per mag of carry ammo to make sure the last round bolt holds open and that it's feeding, inspect again, and load up. After that I shoot however much I can whenever I can - which has, lately, been about a box per week. I don't much trust the firearm anyway, though, which is why I train with other things.

Wil Ufgood
06-06-2012, 11:53
Now, all you Internet Bullies, beat me up a little more for posting stuff that others have also said, since you don't have the guts to go after anyone else but me.

To all posters who agree with Frank

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv314/1911canebrake/icons/I_Fart_In_Your_General_Direction.jpg

Bren
06-06-2012, 11:57
+1
I have a new G19 and only put 100 rnds through it before I started carrying it. Damn I better go get 10000 rounds so I can make sure this thing will work ok before I head out and get into a gun battle around the corner.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

These days, I often test new guns by shooting them for the first time in competition. I don't have a lot of spare time and if I couldn't tell the gun was going to work before I got to the range, I'd consider myself a newb and get a grown-up to help me.

M&P Shooter
06-06-2012, 12:22
200 perfect rounds through any gun before I trust her:cool:

M&P Shooter
06-06-2012, 12:24
Now, all you Internet Bullies, beat me up a little more for posting stuff that others have also said, since you don't have the guts to go after anyone else but me.
Bruce Lee - Greatest Kick - YouTube

fastbolt
06-06-2012, 13:04
This is one of those perennial topics that never really generates a definitive answer that pleases everybody.

Seemingly no small amount of disagreement, though (as has been evident thus far). :whistling:

Come on folks. Even the manufacturers and their major LE/Gov clients haven't ever really reached a definitive consensus on this subject. Even the criteria used for T&E by LE/Gov customer agencies and testing agencies seems to vary.

I've been working as a LE firearms instructor since '90, and for much of that time I've also served as an armorer for various firearms commonly found in LE/Gov work. I've attended classes (including recerts) that number in the high teens, and have listened to the opinions and experiences of a fair number of reps, repair techs, armorer instructors, engineers, etc.

I've formed my own opinions based upon what I've learned, observed and have experienced.

As long as it involves a new, modern pistol - made by one of the major makers who provide pistols to LE/Gov - I have a simple preference.

I clean & lubricate the pistol, examining it for any obvious defects/damage or debris left over from production. This includes some common bench-checks for operation & function.

If everything looks normal, I take it to the firing line and run 25-50 rounds through each of the magazines that are going to be used with that particular pistol. (Each new magazine purchased gets the same inspection & live-fire testing at some point.)

I prefer to use whatever duty/carry loads are going to be used with that gun & mags. I may use some FMJ (if available for range ammo) but that's usually supplemental to the duty/carry loads. I want to know if that gun & its mags run with that ammo, right?

That usually means I'm running at least 75-150+ rounds through a gun (presuming 3 mags, but I'll sometimes be checking more mags than that, too). Sure, I don't mind running more rounds through a gun & its mags. Just depends how much time I have available.

If I repair a gun, I typically like to run 2-3 mag loads through it before retuning it to service (meaning a normal carry load-out).

If it's a duty gun being carried by someone else, and that user is available, I like to have them shoot the gun, too. I may have this supervised by another instructor (if I'm busy at the bench with something else), or I'll do it myself (especially if I suspect there may also be some potential "shooter influences" involved ;) ). I want folks to feel confident in their issued duty guns as they leave the range. (As long as they don't have some weirdly unrealistic expectations, of course.)

I've often emphasized the point that I won't return a weapon to service unless I'd be confident to carry it, myself. There's been a few times when I've offered to trade them my issued weapon for theirs (with proper inventory paperwork), just in case they think mine is somehow "pampered", "tuned" or "better". (I've actually turned mine in so someone else could have it issued to them, and taken another one, or whatever they were carrying. The longer I've been an instructor & armorer, the less fussy I've become. No big deal.)

"Used" guns? Depends. Some folks just can't seem to resist screwing around with guns, so I'd take even more time to make a careful inspection, replacing any worn, defective or questionable parts/assemblies as may be necessary. I might run more rounds through one, too.

Now, all this is just related to guns that are going to be carried as dedicated defensive weapons.

Other folks can suit themselves.

Other firearms instructors and armorers can suit themselves (or work within their own existing policies ;) ).

None of this is worth arguing about, though, is it?

Wil Ufgood
06-06-2012, 13:08
This is one of those perennial topics that never really generates a definitive answer that pleases everybody.

Seemingly no small amount of disagreement, though (as has been evident thus far). :whistling:

Come on folks. Even the manufacturers and their major LE/Gov clients haven't ever really reached a definitive consensus on this subject. Even the criteria used for T&E by LE/Gov customer agencies and testing agencies seems to vary.

I've been working as a LE firearms instructor since '90, and for much of that time I've also served as an armorer for various firearms commonly found in LE/Gov work. I've attended classes (including recerts) that number in the high teens, and have listened to the opinions and experiences of a fair number of reps, repair techs, armorer instructors, engineers, etc.

I've formed my own opinions based upon what I've learned, observed and have experienced.

As long as it involves a new, modern pistol - made by one of the major makers who provide pistols to LE/Gov - I have a simple preference.

I clean & lubricate the pistol, examining it for any obvious defects/damage or debris left over from production. This includes some common bench-checks for operation & function.

If everything looks normal, I take it to the firing line and run 25-50 rounds through each of the magazines that are going to be used with that particular pistol. (Each new magazine purchased gets the same inspection & live-fire testing at some point.)

I prefer to use whatever duty/carry loads are going to be used with that gun & mags. I may use some FMJ (if available for range ammo) but that's usually supplemental to the duty/carry loads. I want to know if that gun & its mags run with that ammo, right?

That usually means I'm running at least 75-150+ rounds through a gun (presuming 3 mags, but I'll sometimes be checking more mags than that, too). Sure, I don't mind running more rounds through a gun & its mags. Just depends how much time I have available.

If I repair a gun, I typically like to run 2-3 mag loads through it before retuning it to service (meaning a normal carry load-out).

If it's a duty gun being carried by someone else, and that user is available, I like to have them shoot the gun, too. I may have this supervised by another instructor (if I'm busy at the bench with something else), or I'll do it myself (especially if I suspect there may also be some potential "shooter influences" involved ;) ). I want folks to feel confident in their issued duty guns as they leave the range. (As long as they don't have some weirdly unrealistic expectations, of course.)

I've often emphasized the point that I won't return a weapon to service unless I'd be confident to carry it, myself. There's been a few times when I've offered to trade them my issued weapon for theirs (with proper inventory paperwork), just in case they think mine is somehow "pampered", "tuned" or "better". (I've actually turned mine in so someone else could have it issued to them, and taken another one, or whatever they were carrying. The longer I've been an instructor & armorer, the less fussy I've become. No big deal.)

"Used" guns? Depends. Some folks just can't seem to resist screwing around with guns, so I'd take even more time to make a careful inspection, replacing any worn, defective or questionable parts/assemblies as may be necessary. I might run more rounds through one, too.

Now, all this is just related to guns that are going to be carried as dedicated defensive weapons.

Other folks can suit themselves.

Other firearms instructors and armorers can suit themselves (or work within their own existing policies ;) ).

None of this is worth arguing about, though, is it?
http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f17/618088d1328219188-after-one-year-collecting-most-impressive-darth-vader.jpg

TN.Frank
06-06-2012, 13:37
None of this is worth arguing about, though, is it?

Nope, it's not. I've not argued with anyone about how many rounds they choose to run though a gun before THEY feel comfortable with it but quite a few want to argue with me about MY personal methods. That's where we come at odds with one another. I say 100 rounds is enough to let you know if a new gun is going to run or not, test those rounds through all the mags you'll be using in the gun because truth be told mags are more of a problem to function then the actual gun it's self.
I give my opinion and then I get this:
Frank if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.
Now we've gone from function testing to Training. Great.
Then I get this:
Frank, there's an old saying. "Train the way you fight, fight the way you train" from your posts it's clear you've never draw a gun in a life and death situation.
Take that anyway you want
BTW, even people who've never been in that situation, that are responsible about carrying a gun have that "warrior" mindset.
Soapbox out!
More Training talk.
Then there's this:
Anyone that reads the above.....totally disregard it. Total BS!
I simply answer a question and end up getting flack for my answer. I didn't think that there was some "right" or "wrong" way to answer the question or I'd have studied up before the "test".
And of course there's always this:
Tons of great opinions, then there is TNFrank's..............:faint:

Poster child for what NOT to do.
Like I said the question was ask, I gave my answer, didn't know I'd be graded on it.
And of course we can't forget this:
I agree! It's guys like this one that makes me rethink "SHALL ISSUE, period" to "shall issue after we test the heck out of you".:rofl:
Now we've moved from function testing a handgun to weather the 2nd Amend. applies to me or not. Never mind I shot a 96% average when I hired on to Wells & Fargo Armored during qualifications and also passed the Tennessee CCW course including the shoot portion of the test.

Wil Ufgood
06-06-2012, 13:39
http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq189/bigsam27/abby-normal.jpg

NeverMore1701
06-06-2012, 13:40
Nope, it's not. I've not argued with anyone about how many rounds they choose to run though a gun before THEY feel comfortable with it but quite a few want to argue with me about MY personal methods. That's where we come at odds with one another. I say 100 rounds is enough to let you know if a new gun is going to run or not, test those rounds through all the mags you'll be using in the gun because truth be told mags are more of a problem to function then the actual gun it's self.
I give my opinion and then I get this:

Now we've gone from function testing to Training. Great.
Then I get this:

More Training talk.
Then there's this:

I simply answer a question and end up getting flack for my answer. I didn't think that there was some "right" or "wrong" way to answer the question or I'd have studied up before the "test".
And of course there's always this:

Like I said the question was ask, I gave my answer, didn't know I'd be graded on it.
And of course we can't forget this:

Now we've moved from function testing a handgun to weather the 2nd Amend. applies to me or not. Never mind I shot a 96% average when I hired on to Wells & Fargo Armored during qualifications and also passed the Tennessee CCW course including the shoot portion of the test.

Can't argue with creds like that!


:whistling:

HKLovingIT
06-06-2012, 13:44
I clean it, lube it and off I go. I like to do 500 FMJ with equal rotation of my magazines. Then I do 100 carry. By then it should either be nice and settled in or any problems apparent.

If I have to change major parts or it's been back to the factory for any reason, I repeat the above.

I like to run at least 100 rounds through any new magazine before calling it good.

Dats it.

faawrenchbndr
06-06-2012, 14:30
"Most impressive,....I see you Schwartz is as big as mine......"

GlockFish
06-06-2012, 14:36
All guns that get carried or take on the home defense role get 250 rounds put through them after I take them home and clean and oil them up.

Nestor
06-06-2012, 15:02
Feeling Singled Out?
Buy yourself a confidence-boosting outfit and make an entrance your friends won't forget.
At some stage in your life, it's bound to crop up - the feeling that you're the last single person left on the planet.
Whether because of the all unanswered lies, plain BS, name calling, reverse snobbism or just not meeting the right person on the internet forum, being single can leave you feeling alienated and unhappy.
Pursue a passion where you're likely to meet like-minded folks. mynails.com may help, but most importantly - do not forget to get some life, don't spend your whole life looking for validation on every internet forum out there. The best way to find love is to take the pressure off!

Upppsss....please accept my sincerely apologies, since I think I just posted in the wrong forum. Triple click or something...
To reward You all for your lost time with this totally non-related post of mine I decided to post the picture of the gun that I made myself the other day. I totally love it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Admon/Grass-Gun_o_25010.jpg

popapeach
06-06-2012, 15:06
Funny doesn't seem like you guys ever find any bad ammo! I red somewhere you should run the first 39 rounds through the gun and carry the last 11 in the gun the idea being if the first 39 worked then the next 11 should be good to go, sounds right to me.

Nestor
06-06-2012, 15:10
Funny doesn't seem like you guys ever find any bad ammo! I red somewhere you should run the first 39 rounds through the gun and carry the last 11 in the gun the idea being if the first 39 worked then the next 11 should be good to go, sounds right to me.

It's because some of us will never fire 50 rounds out of one gun.
Personally I like to fire 1 round and carry the last 49. I feel like I'm playing real lottery then. So exciting!

pat701
06-06-2012, 17:12
350 to 500 rounds

Adamz04
06-06-2012, 18:06
my glocks usually around 100 fmj and at least a couple mags of whatever i would be carrying just to make sure they feed okay as well. My kahr has been flawless but just felt tighter from the beginning so i gave that one around 300 rds of fmj and a box of carry ammo before i carried it anywhere.

Dragoon189
06-06-2012, 18:33
i think you will only trust it 100% is after 1 round when it counts

M&P Shooter
06-07-2012, 00:16
None of this is worth arguing about, though, is it?
The 10mm is the ultimate killing machine isn't it:tongueout:

AK_Stick
06-07-2012, 00:21
I've carried some of mine before firing.


a full mag is generally enough to satisfy me.

soggy_spinout
06-07-2012, 07:15
For pistols 300 rounds of ball minimum, regardless of brand; for one that's going to be a carry/HD gun at least an additional 100-150 rounds of the exact defensive ammo that I plan on running with. For a defensive rifle...depends on the platform.

TN.Frank
06-07-2012, 07:22
I've carried some of mine before firing.
a full mag is generally enough to satisfy me.

Since I'm the only one that seems to get smart *** replies to statements like you just made(by the way, I totally agree with you) I'll simply quote what's been said to me and add YOUR name so you won't feel left out of all the snide remarks.
AK Stick if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.
I was a LE trainer and range master for a decade or two. What you said above strikes in the face of any and all of my experience and anyone I can remember talking too with a hint of experience.

Total uninformed BS.

Tons of great opinions, then there is AK Stick's..............:faint:

Poster child for what NOT to do.

Establishing confidence in the absolute reliability of gun over those few rounds is the hard part to anyone who doesn't need to rationalize. Otherwise it's very easy.


So I think your "a couple of mags and it's good" premise is BS.
AND I call BS that you actually shot "a couple of mags and it's good" before carrying it.
A man who fires 14 rounds and calls a weapon good,
is doubting a trained firearms instructor?! :dunno:

There ya' go AK Stick, now you can see what I've put up with by saying the same thing you did only the cowards don't have the guts to post stuff like this to anyone else buy me. Figured I'd pass along their "Love" to someone else. LOL

SigFTW
06-07-2012, 07:37
Can't we all just get along??:dunno:

TN.Frank
06-07-2012, 07:44
Can't we all just get along??:dunno:

LOL, I AM getting along. I just think we need to spread the "Love" that I get from a few folks around here to others.

faawrenchbndr
06-07-2012, 07:46
Seems you are doing a bit of "creative quoting", huh, 'Frank?!
So change what someone posted, quote it & start some ****?

Keep the lies and the BS stories straight old man!

faawrenchbndr
06-07-2012, 07:51
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick
I've carried some of mine before firing.
a full mag is generally enough to satisfy me.
Since I'm the only one that seems to get smart *** replies to statements like you just made(by the way, I totally agree with you) I'll simply quote what's been said to me and add YOUR name so you won't feel left out of all the snide remarks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAJ
AK Stick if you think 100rds will ingrain muscle memory, oh never mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAIL CAESAR
I was a LE trainer and range master for a decade or two. What you said above strikes in the face of any and all of my experience and anyone I can remember talking too with a hint of experience.

Total uninformed BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr
Tons of great opinions, then there is AK Stick's..............

Poster child for what NOT to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor
Establishing confidence in the absolute reliability of gun over those few rounds is the hard part to anyone who doesn't need to rationalize. Otherwise it's very easy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAIL CAESAR
So I think your "a couple of mags and it's good" premise is BS.
AND I call BS that you actually shot "a couple of mags and it's good" before carrying it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr
A man who fires 14 rounds and calls a weapon good,
is doubting a trained firearms instructor?!
There ya' go AK Stick, now you can see what I've put up with by saying the same thing you did only the cowards don't have the guts to post stuff like this to anyone else buy me. Figured I'd pass along their "Love" to someone else. LOL
Last edited by TN.Frank; Today at 08:23..


Tons of great opinions, then there is TNFrank's..............:faint:

Poster child for what NOT to do.

Here's my original post above, see post # 63 on page 3.
TnFrank is clearly an untrustworthy liar, wanting others
to believe that was posted about AK Stick.

Clearly you can see what kind of person 'Frank is.
Good job,.......hung yourself!

faawrenchbndr
06-07-2012, 07:54
LOL, I AM getting along. I just think we need to spread the "Love" that I get from a few folks around here to others.

Getting along as a liar! Changing posts & quoting them?!
Care to explain that one?

TN.Frank
06-07-2012, 08:03
Getting along as a liar! Changing posts & quoting them?!
Care to explain that one?

Since you didn't have the guts to say what you said to me to AK Stick I did it for ya'. You know dang good and well if I'd have said what he did you've have jumped all over my *** about it because I have said similar and got reamed by you and a few others here over my comments. I just think that it'd be more fair if you'd post the comments that you say to me to others as well. But then you'd don't have a "problem" with anyone else but me it seems.

faawrenchbndr
06-07-2012, 08:07
You are the only one here spreading BS and lies.
I feel sorry for you, you try to make people believe AK Stick
Posted some **** he didn't, then you try to justify it?
Are you freakin nuts? Seriously pathetic, even for the likes of you!

faawrenchbndr
06-07-2012, 08:10
Forgot to add,......I respect AK Stick's opinions and decisions.
He has the experience and trigger time to make those decisions.

You,.......not so much.

SigFTW
06-07-2012, 08:11
To reward You all for your lost time with this totally non-related post of mine I decided to post the picture of the gun that I made myself the other day. I totally love it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Admon/Grass-Gun_o_25010.jpg

That is some serious basket weaving!!! :wow:

TN.Frank
06-07-2012, 08:54
You are the only one here spreading BS and lies.
I feel sorry for you, you try to make people believe AK Stick
Posted some **** he didn't, then you try to justify it?
Are you freakin nuts? Seriously pathetic, even for the likes of you!

I was simply regurgitating the crap you and others posted to me with regard to AK Stick's post about putting a mag through a gun and calling it good. You know damn well if I'd have said that you'd have been all over my ***(fact is you and other were for the same thing) I never said AK Stick said those things, they were things you said to me that you didn't have the guts to say to him or many others who feel the same as I do, that a mag or two is fine for function testing a handgun.
I'm getting sick of this place, ya'll can go to hell, I'm going to Texas(or other forums) to many two face, back stabbers around here for my taste.

faawrenchbndr
06-07-2012, 10:50
It's all in black & white for all to see.

You lie, you then try to justify it with BS.

Nestor
06-07-2012, 15:20
Some people create their own storms, then get upset when it rains...

smitty704
06-07-2012, 20:03
After my jam-o-late model gen 3 G19 which had stovepipe after stovepipe, I will not trust a gun until I've ran at least 1000 flawless rounds through it. Then I will carry it or use it for home defense.

Wil Ufgood
06-07-2012, 22:08
I was simply regurgitating the crap you and others posted to me with regard to AK Stick's post about putting a mag through a gun and calling it good. You know damn well if I'd have said that you'd have been all over my ***(fact is you and other were for the same thing) I never said AK Stick said those things, they were things you said to me that you didn't have the guts to say to him or many others who feel the same as I do, that a mag or two is fine for function testing a handgun.
I'm getting sick of this place, ya'll can go to hell, I'm going to Texas(or other forums) to many two face, back stabbers around here for my taste.

:upeyes: Holy Drama Queen Batman!

Zombie Steve
06-07-2012, 22:24
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Don_Knotts_Jim_Nabors_Andy_Griffith_Show_1964.JPG/548px-Don_Knotts_Jim_Nabors_Andy_Griffith_Show_1964.JPG

Glockdude1
06-08-2012, 06:34
After my jam-o-late model gen 3 G19 which had stovepipe after stovepipe, I will not trust a gun until I've ran at least 1000 flawless rounds through it. Then I will carry it or use it for home defense.

Was the stock guide rod swapped out by chance? Just recently at my range, a shooter with a gen 3 G19 had the same stovepipe problem.

He had switched to a stainless guide rod. We removed the stainless and put the stock plastic one back in.

No more stovepipe jams.

:cool:

SigFTW
06-08-2012, 07:45
I think 200-300
Some say 1000. Others say 500. One thinks 14.


I had to go back to your original post because I forgot what we were talking about. Then I see One thinks 14. and had one of those Ahhhaaa moments. :rofl::rofl:

Just call me slow!

faawrenchbndr
06-08-2012, 08:29
I had to go back to your original post because I forgot what we were talking about. Then I see One thinks 14. and had one of those Ahhhaaa moments. :rofl::rofl:

Just call me slow!

Yep,.......it turned into a disastrous pissin match. :faint:

Any rate, averageed all posts. Seems like the concensus is 150
rounds fired, to trust a weapon.
Many more posted they would carry with little to no rounds fired
than I expected.

denn1911
06-08-2012, 13:52
Everyone is going to have a different comfort level, and I respect that. There is only one situation that doesn't sit well with me. It's the person who buys a new pistol and defensive ammo, then carries it daily without making sure that their new handgun is reliable with their chosen ammo selection. My personal threshold is at least 300 rounds of FMJ and JHP. I don't stand at the range and fire round after round in a static fashion. I work drills out of the holster, malfunction clearing, etc. A session or two of that will reach 300+ rounds easily. I trust quality firearms so I am confident in a particular defensive pistol after flawless functioning. I work my firearms hard and treat them as tools. If I have more funds available, I'm at the range putting more quality rounds downrange. That does cost money so I just sacrifice elsewhere.

TN.Frank
06-08-2012, 13:57
Then I see One thinks 14. and had one of those Ahhhaaa moments. :rofl::rofl:


Well, since I said 100 rounds for a new handgun I know for damn sure I'm NOT the one that said 14.

Metal Angel
06-08-2012, 14:17
I have fired just a hair less than 1000 rounds through my late model Gen3 Glock 19 and it has always ejected cases to the right with authority (well, for a Glock anyway) and has never had a single malfunction. Then last time I went shooting I had a case barely eject and hit my safety glasses. It made me think about the arbitrary numbers we designate to "prove" reliability with our guns. There are too many variables, and a gun can fail at any round count. Granted, if I had failures at every range trip (and really I'm not calling that backward ejection a failure, just an inconsistency) then I would not trust that gun. I think if you don't trust your gun, you are better off.

Singlestack Wonder
06-08-2012, 15:12
With a Glock, 250 rounds for me is GTG. For a 1911, 1000 is the minimum.

YMMV

3rdgen40
06-08-2012, 16:32
I shoot enough rounds through new guns to get the feel of it.That could be 50 rounds or 500 rounds.Depends on the gun and how well I shoot it.By the time i'm comfortable shooting it, I have enough rounds through it to know it will function reliably.

denn1911
06-08-2012, 18:13
With a Glock, 250 rounds for me is GTG. For a 1911, 1000 is the minimum.

YMMV

I'm a 1911 fan and have carried one daily for 10 years, up until 3 years ago. For a 1911 platform, I used the same minimum. For any new, striker fired pistols, 300 is where it usually falls.

pck50
06-08-2012, 21:03
Only one if its an H&K!



Doesn't matter if it's a Glock, 1911, or revolver.
How many rounds do you fire before you will trust a handgun?

I think 200-300
Some say 1000. Others say 500. One thinks 14.

What are YOUR thoughts?

AK_Stick
06-08-2012, 23:21
Since I've gotten a few PM's about why I say so little, I'll explain.


I shoot probably close to 6K pistol rounds a year, and roughly 10K to 15K rifle rounds, assorted through out my classes/play/hunting. So pretty much at some point everything I've owned has gone down. My AR-15 has more replacement parts in it than OEM, and everything has been replaced through straight attrition.


So while I may not fire that particular gun more than just a magazine, I'm already good with the manual of arms for it. Some guns take a little adjustment, or do this or that a little differently. But for the most part, I find most handguns to be fairly straightforward.

I own 3 1911's, 2 H&K's, a Sig, 3-4 revolvers, and 2 or 4 Glocks. So I've got most of the major makes MOA down. And I know how to perform immediate action on any platform I end up carrying. So as long as I know the firing pin will make contact with the primer, I really have no issues with carrying a gun.



This also may have something to do with being in the .mil and occasionally being required to take a new gun out, without a chance to test fire/check it before I leave the wire.

YtownGlock
06-09-2012, 01:21
When I got my Glock 23 Gen4 last year it was a month before I turned 21. I had put nearly 400+ rounds of FMJ and 100+ rounds of various JHP by the time i got my CHL a month and a half later. My primary carry ammo is Speer Gold Dot 165. I put 50 rounds of that through the first time I bought it and it has always gone bang for me.

When I recently got my Sig P229-1 I put a couple hundred rounds of FMJ through it and 15 rounds of carry ammo (Fed Hyrda-Shok). I dont have the insane amount of $ other people seem to have to blow on a case of FMJ and JHP to just blast through for reliability. Both guns go bang when I pull the trigger. That's all the assurance I need. I do frequent the range at least 2-3x a month though.

I cycle my defense ammo every 4-6 months, meaning the magazine in the gun and the round chambered, i fire that off and replace the mag with one of the other 2 I usually carry and load some fresh ammo in the spent mag.

I just put in an order for some 9mm Gold Dot for the Sig. I will prolly shoot 25 rounds of that.

faawrenchbndr
06-09-2012, 04:16
Well, since I said 100 rounds for a new handgun I know for damn sure I'm NOT the one that said 14.

:faint: The trail of BS never ends.

TN.Frank
06-09-2012, 05:48
:faint: The trail of BS never ends.

And it's ALL coming from YOU pard.

My Original first post to this thread.
If it's a new gun then 100 rounds should let you know if you've bought something decent or a POS. For a used gun that's already had a few hundred rounds through it a couple mags should let you know if it's going to run or not.
For Civilians you'll expend 3 or 4 rounds in a "Gun Fight" so if you can run a mag through your gun and not have any malfunctions then you've ran more ammo through it then you'll fire in a Life and Death situation.
Most Problem Guns do so right out of the box at which point they need to be sent back to the manufacture for repair or replacement. Any quality firearm of proper design should run right out of the box, 100%, NO exceptions. If you need to break the gun in or have to put 500 rounds through it before you'll trust it then you need to find a different gun to carry.
My Glock G26 4th Gen ran 100% right out of the box, the used Beretta 92F Compact I bought ran 100%, PX4 Storm 40cal ran 100%, The ATI 1911 was 100% once I got decent mags for it, my current XD45 is 100% and my PK380 has been 100%. I really don't see the need to waste ammo trying to "prove" that my gun is going to run, I know it'll run because it has been running 100% and as long as I feed it quality ammo and keep it clean it should continue to run 100%.

Show me where I said "14 rounds for a new gun".???

M&P15T
06-09-2012, 06:04
Many times I have loaded a newly purchased GLOCK pistol at the LGS, and carried it on my hip out the door.

Nestor
06-09-2012, 07:34
Show me where I said "14 rounds for a new gun".???

It's was new gun for You, pre-owned by God only knows who.
It was still new to YOU.
We know that.
Obviously for whatever reason You decided to ignore this, simple fact.
After next 8 rounds and few more, positive reviews coming from THE OTHERS you are starting to feel better about YOUR OWN pistol though (like there is any relation between those two facts).
Yes, we know that as well.
It's all cool.
Bottom line is that nobody can bring you peace but yourself.
Seeking approval from people will have you on an endless search for unnecessary validation.

faawrenchbndr
06-09-2012, 11:58
And it's ALL coming from YOU pard.
My Original first post to this thread.
Show me where I said "14 rounds for a new gun".???

Oh crap,.......I was off by THREE rounds!


..... I've only fired 17 rounds through it so far, still I"m not expecting any problems.
The gun I got the gun from had fired hundreds of rounds through it without any problems at all.

maxmanta
06-09-2012, 18:59
Trust in anything is never complete. Always be aware that something can go wrong.

pck50
06-09-2012, 20:06
Extremely very true.

Trust in anything is never complete. Always be aware that something can go wrong.

MrGlock21
06-09-2012, 21:13
Doesn't matter if it's a Glock, 1911, or revolver.


Actually, it does matter :tongueout:

GlockFish
06-09-2012, 22:53
Trust in anything is never complete. Always be aware that something can go wrong.

Trust in God.

Handguns? Only after 250 rounds.

Bob Hafler
06-10-2012, 05:15
Now that we have our guns broken in and found to be flawles ,should we Open carry or Conceal carry.:rofl:

2740dmx
06-10-2012, 05:47
For me, it's not a matter of how many rounds, but a matter of getting a feel for the specific weapon.

My recent G26 Gen4 had me worried for the first few hundred rounds, with stovepipe malfunctions and FTF....weak ejection, etc...

Now, after five or six range trips, a detail strip or two, and over 1300 rounds through it......

Perfection! Feeds and ejects everything without question.
(gratuitous pic):
http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t497/spec4towle/027.jpg

faawrenchbndr
06-10-2012, 12:30
Actually, it does matter :tongueout:

I see you barrel is sticking out,........excited?! :rofl: