Attack of the Water Jugs!!! [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Taterhead
06-11-2012, 00:27
...they kept coming, but I kept putting them down!

I had some fun today blasting about 40 water-filled gallon milk containers. Got a little wet. Drenched the place. My Glock 20 provided the firepower. Thought I would share some of the results.

1st Up: 200 gr XTP vs. 200 gr WFNGC Hardcast. Both loaded to 1200 fps.

Scenario: Douglas fir 2X4, then patch of leather from a work glove, followed by 4 layers of denim. All backed up by gallon milk jugs filled with water.

EDIT: Re-checked my notes on the following XTP result. Change in italics.

The XTP punched throught the stud, leather, and denim. Stopped in the 3rd. No expansion. Not a particularly impressive displacement of water. The board looked a little splintered with a smallish hole. 100% weight retention. 2nd from left in photo.

The WFNGC was far more impressive. Big hole in the board. These bullets are said to "drill through the target" and this was true in this situation. It was a big clean hole through the 2X4. The hole in the leather and denim were noticeably bigger than the XTP. The bullet completely blasted through 5 jugs and kept on going. I did not recover the bullet. Dang it. Wood fragments were found in jug 3.

Verdict: WFNGC is the clear winner. Bigger destruction, better penetration.

200 gr XTP @ 1200 through leather and 4 layers of denim. No wood. Penetrated 3 milk jugs and stopped in the 4th. Text book expansion with 187 grains of weight retention. 3rd from left in photo.

200 gr XTP @ 1150 fps: No leather this time. 4 layers of denim only. Nearly went through 5 jugs. Penetrated the far wall of the 5th and stopped inside the 5th jug. Text book expansion. 100% weight retention. 4th from left in photo.

The next two were shot through 1 layer of leather and 4 layers of denim.

Factory Win 175 gr STHP (1150 ave velocity from my G20): Punched a hole in the far side of the 3rd jug and stopped in the third. The 1st two jugs were absolutely destroyed. 100% weight retention. The jacket was just starting to peal away from the core (see photo below). This shows that you don't need huge velocities to wreak some havoc. 5th from left in photo.

165 gr GDHP @ 1335 fps: Blamo! Jugs 1 & 2 were destroyed. The bullet punctured the far side of jug 3 and the near side of jug 4 before stopping in the 4th. Perfect mushroom. 100% weight retention. It looks like the petals probably reached max expansion and then were folding back toward the shank. .7 - .8" ending expansion. 4th from right in photo.

The next two were shot through 4 layers of denim but no leather.

155 gr GDHP @ 1335 fps: Big splash. 2 jugs were blasted big time. Puntured the wall of the 3rd jug but stopped in the 2nd. Huge expansion. Minimum expansion 0.8". Max 1.2". Lost about 5 grains due to shedding a petal. I feel more confident with the 165 grain version at this velocity. 3rd from right in photo.

155 gr XTP @ 1400 fps: Blasted the first two jugs. Almost penetrated the third before stopping. Classic XTP mushroom. Very flat with almost no shank left. Lost about 15 grains of weight. 2nd from right in photo.

I had 3 jugs left so for the heck of it I sent a 180 grain Power Bond @ 1150 fps. Easily went through all three. I did not recover this bullet. No photo.

What did I learn (or add to my previous experiences)?

200 gr WFNGC hardcast bullets are nasty. A 165 grain Gold Dot is a nice bullet. Factory Silvertips are probably all that's needed for SD. Controllable, with pretty darned impressive effect on target. Denim does not prevent XTPs from expanding, but wood does.

Sorry for the poor smartphone quality photo.


225808

Climbhard
06-11-2012, 06:52
Nice. Thank you. My home defense gun is a G20 with 175 gr Win ST and when I go to the woods it's a couple 200xtp on top of 200 WFNGC bullets.

txgunguy
06-11-2012, 08:55
Thanks for the test! Are those Silvertips new production?

Dexters
06-11-2012, 09:05
gallon milk containers.

Were they skim, 1%, 2% or regular milk jugs?

txgunguy
06-11-2012, 10:16
Nice. Thank you. My home defense gun is a G20 with 175 gr Win ST and when I go to the woods it's a couple 200xtp on top of 200 WFNGC bullets.

Right now the 165gr gold dots from underwood are in mine. I've debated putting silvertips in it. The gold dots are pretty controllable to me though.

WeeWilly
06-11-2012, 11:33
I guess I am not going to be able to hold out any longer, going to go buy some of those 200gr WFNGC bullets.

Thanks for the report.

Taterhead
06-11-2012, 12:08
Thanks for the test! Are those Silvertips new production?

They are a couple of years old, but they are the newer variety that don't meet the box flap velocity claims. My understanding is that they were loaded to higher velocities back in the 90s.

Taterhead
06-11-2012, 12:11
I guess I am not going to be able to hold out any longer, going to go buy some of those 200gr WFNGC bullets.

Thanks for the report.

Yep. That would be a great idea! I have shot various things with them over the years, and they do some work. No doubt.

nickE10mm
06-11-2012, 12:52
Excellent data, Taterhead... THANKS!!! I agree, there ain't much that those WFNGC bullets won't do. I'm currently working on a WFNGC load that is very fast... but the load that is most accurate. Once I find that, I will probably never hunt with another 10mm bullet.

For defense, I agree... you don't need all that much to have a great 10mm load.

Yondering
06-11-2012, 13:06
Cool stuff. Couple questions - why did you shoot the 200 WFN through a 2x4 first? Did you do the same test without the wood for this bullet?

Why did you use a layer of leather? Was it supposed to simulate something?

nickE10mm
06-11-2012, 13:08
Cool stuff. Couple questions - why did you shoot the 200 WFN through a 2x4 first? Did you do the same test without the wood for this bullet?

Why did you use a layer of leather? Was it supposed to simulate something?

Obviously I'm not Taterhead and don't his his reasoning... but I really consider leather to be a good SKIN simulant. Its pretty common for expanded bullets to get caught on the last layer of skin in an animal... I don't see why it wouldn't work on the front of the target media, too, if it was thin enough.

deadandgone
06-11-2012, 14:32
Excellent work...now I want some WFNGC in my arsenal for woods issues...BB and DT not high on my list....Mr. Underwood....when will it be? Hopefully before hunting season rolls around again...I'll get some somewhere

Yondering
06-11-2012, 14:38
Obviously I'm not Taterhead and don't his his reasoning... but I really consider leather to be a good SKIN simulant. Its pretty common for expanded bullets to get caught on the last layer of skin in an animal... I don't see why it wouldn't work on the front of the target media, too, if it was thin enough.

That's what I wondered, but leather doesn't simulate skin well at all. It's like comparing a green sapling (skin) to dried firewood (leather). Skin stretches, and contains fluid, so it behaves quite differently than leather, which is much tougher than skin and also much harder. Of course, there's lots of different grades of leather too.

nickE10mm
06-11-2012, 14:52
Skin stretches, and contains fluid, so it behaves quite differently than leather, which is much tougher than skin and also much harder. Of course, there's lots of different grades of leather too.

True... I was thinking some kind of light leather or "pleather"... but who knows what he had in mind. Probably the standard "human wearing a jacket" test.... (Or 70's human wearing lots of fashionable denim, lol)

_The_Shadow
06-11-2012, 17:47
Great report Taterhead! Thanks!

CanyonMan
06-12-2012, 12:46
...they kept coming, but I kept putting them down!

I had some fun today blasting about 40 water-filled gallon milk containers. Got a little wet. Drenched the place. My Glock 20 provided the firepower. Thought I would share some of the results.

1st Up: 200 gr XTP vs. 200 gr WFNGC Hardcast. Both loaded to 1200 fps.

Scenario: Douglas fir 2X4, then patch of leather from a work glove, followed by 4 layers of denim. All backed up by gallon milk jugs filled with water.

EDIT: Re-checked my notes on the following XTP result. Change in italics.

The XTP punched throught the stud, leather, and denim. Stopped in the 3rd. No expansion. Not a particularly impressive displacement of water. The board looked a little splintered with a smallish hole. 100% weight retention. 2nd from left in photo.

The WFNGC was far more impressive. Big hole in the board. These bullets are said to "drill through the target" and this was true in this situation. It was a big clean hole through the 2X4. The hole in the leather and denim were noticeably bigger than the XTP. The bullet completely blasted through 5 jugs and kept on going. I did not recover the bullet. Dang it. Wood fragments were found in jug 3.

Verdict: WFNGC is the clear winner. Bigger destruction, better penetration.

200 gr XTP @ 1200 through leather and 4 layers of denim. No wood. Penetrated 3 milk jugs and stopped in the 4th. Text book expansion with 187 grains of weight retention. 3rd from left in photo.

200 gr XTP @ 1150 fps: No leather this time. 4 layers of denim only. Nearly went through 5 jugs. Penetrated the far wall of the 5th and stopped inside the 5th jug. Text book expansion. 100% weight retention. 4th from left in photo.

The next two were shot through 1 layer of leather and 4 layers of denim.

Factory Win 175 gr STHP (1150 ave velocity from my G20): Punched a hole in the far side of the 3rd jug and stopped in the third. The 1st two jugs were absolutely destroyed. 100% weight retention. The jacket was just starting to peal away from the core (see photo below). This shows that you don't need huge velocities to wreak some havoc. 5th from left in photo.

165 gr GDHP @ 1335 fps: Blamo! Jugs 1 & 2 were destroyed. The bullet punctured the far side of jug 3 and the near side of jug 4 before stopping in the 4th. Perfect mushroom. 100% weight retention. It looks like the petals probably reached max expansion and then were folding back toward the shank. .7 - .8" ending expansion. 4th from right in photo.

The next two were shot through 4 layers of denim but no leather.

155 gr GDHP @ 1335 fps: Big splash. 2 jugs were blasted big time. Puntured the wall of the 3rd jug but stopped in the 2nd. Huge expansion. Minimum expansion 0.8". Max 1.2". Lost about 5 grains due to shedding a petal. I feel more confident with the 165 grain version at this velocity. 3rd from right in photo.

155 gr XTP @ 1400 fps: Blasted the first two jugs. Almost penetrated the third before stopping. Classic XTP mushroom. Very flat with almost no shank left. Lost about 15 grains of weight. 2nd from right in photo.

I had 3 jugs left so for the heck of it I sent a 180 grain Power Bond @ 1150 fps. Easily went through all three. I did not recover this bullet. No photo.

What did I learn (or add to my previous experiences)?

200 gr WFNGC hardcast bullets are nasty. A 165 grain Gold Dot is a nice bullet. Factory Silvertips are probably all that's needed for SD. Controllable, with pretty darned impressive effect on target. Denim does not prevent XTPs from expanding, but wood does.

Sorry for the poor smartphone quality photo.


225808




Very good report Tater. It sure is fun ain't it ? Love the HC, but no one probably knew that uh ? haha.


Good job amigo !







CM

Taterhead
06-12-2012, 13:39
Cool stuff. Couple questions - why did you shoot the 200 WFN through a 2x4 first? Did you do the same test without the wood for this bullet?

Why did you use a layer of leather? Was it supposed to simulate something?

No reason in particular other than it was a combination of things to shoot through that I hadn't tried before. Nothing scientific at all. I have shot the WFNGC through other stuff previously. Example, through straight water, it will go through at least 7 jugs. I never seem to have enough jugs to back them up. They plow though and keep going.

Leather was kind of thought of as a leather jacket, followed by clothing (denim). So with the 2X4 I guess you could think it was concealment barrier, followed by clothing, etc. I did not put a whole lot of thought into it. I just throw different things at different bullets now and then to see what happens. The XTPs give mixed results through hard barriers. WFNGCs behave the same way every time: deep penetration, and nice destruction. Really the test was sort of rigged. I knew what the hardcast bullet would do, and I was pretty sure what the XTP would do.

Admittedly, I was being stingy with the WFNGCs since I am down to my last mag again. I have been procrastinating placing an order for more, and want to keep a mag onhand. Otherwise, I would have repeated the leather-denim test to compare with the XTP. My bet is that it would just plow through everything and go through 7 jugs.

At any rate, sort of rambling. You can tell that this was mostly fun, but somewhat informative.

In a couple of months, I will save some more jugs. I will put out "feelers" for any ideas to test. I usually keep a pretty good variety of 10mm ammo and components on hand.

Opie 1 Kenopie
06-12-2012, 23:01
See how many jugs it'll pass through after penetrating an engine block.

Andrew Wiggin
06-13-2012, 12:28
Thanks for the good work. This is entirely consistent with my own results, despite the fact that I did not use denim. I loaded a 155gr GDHP over 10.5gr of 800X and got about 1,375 fps. That put the bullet solidly through the first two gallon jugs and into the third.

10mm 155gr GDHP hand load - YouTube

Taterhead
06-13-2012, 16:46
See how many jugs it'll pass through after penetrating an engine block.

Just 1?

V8, straight six, Cummins?

Hogpauls
06-13-2012, 17:24
So I can blame you for the rain and snow I got while camping at Stanley Lake last week. I'll pm you my camping schedule so that it doesn't coincide with your 10mm water jug tests. :supergrin:

Great info. Are those 200 gr. WFNGC Double Taps by chance?

Yondering
06-13-2012, 20:42
No reason in particular other than it was a combination of things to shoot through that I hadn't tried before. Nothing scientific at all. I have shot the WFNGC through other stuff previously. Example, through straight water, it will go through at least 7 jugs. I never seem to have enough jugs to back them up. They plow though and keep going.

Leather was kind of thought of as a leather jacket, followed by clothing (denim). So with the 2X4 I guess you could think it was concealment barrier, followed by clothing, etc. I did not put a whole lot of thought into it. I just throw different things at different bullets now and then to see what happens. The XTPs give mixed results through hard barriers. WFNGCs behave the same way every time: deep penetration, and nice destruction. Really the test was sort of rigged. I knew what the hardcast bullet would do, and I was pretty sure what the XTP would do.



That makes sense to me. It's fun shooting at different stuff. I have my wife save all our milk jugs (4 kids in the house so we use a lot) and I use them for these purposes too. I made a cool slow motion video doing this with a .45 Black Talon, where you can see the bullet pass through the milk jugs and stop in the 3rd one.

I've had the same problem recovering hard cast bullets from milk jugs. I've been doing this with my 220gr custom mold, and haven't recovered one (from milk jugs) yet; it's tricky to get enough milk jugs lined up to capture one of these.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to be critical of your report, just wondering what you were trying to do and why.

Taterhead
06-14-2012, 12:14
So I can blame you for the rain and snow I got while camping at Stanley Lake last week. I'll pm you my camping schedule so that it doesn't coincide with your 10mm water jug tests. :supergrin:

Great info. Are those 200 gr. WFNGC Double Taps by chance?

Sorry about the precipitation! Stanley Lake is a pretty beautiful spot to set up a camp. It is crazy how cold it can get in the Sawtooth Basin any time of year.

Yes, they were DT bullets. Hand loaded from DT components.

Hogpauls
06-14-2012, 23:27
Sorry about the precipitation! Stanley Lake is a pretty beautiful spot to set up a camp. It is crazy how cold it can get in the Sawtooth Basin any time of year.

Yes, they were DT bullets. Hand loaded from DT components.

A cold rainy day up there looking at McGowen Peak trumps a sunny day down here looking at Bogus.

Thanks for the info and work put into the post. I've only chronoed my DT 200grnrs, I should drag some lumber and jugs out the desert to see what they do.