North Dakota voters to decide on abolishing property tax [Archive] - Glock Talk

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Ruble Noon
06-12-2012, 13:17
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-11/north-dakota-property-tax/55533784/1

JBnTX
06-12-2012, 13:26
The article doesn't tell you that these are rich, very rich people who are smart enough to realize that once their oil boom vanishes they'll be hit with a property tax anyway, or lose community benefits like parks, schools, roads, sewer and trash services.

Nobody likes the property tax, but nobody wants to go without community services either.

If you want a school for your kids, want your trash picked up, want to drive on pothole free roads and drink clean water, then pay the tax.

But property taxes are too high, especially in Texas.

Ruble Noon
06-12-2012, 13:37
The article doesn't tell you that these are rich, very rich people who are smart enough to realize that once their oil boom vanishes they'll be hit with a property tax anyway, or lose community benefits like parks, schools, roads, sewer and trash services.

Nobody likes the property tax, but nobody wants to go without community services either.

If you want a school for your kids, want your trash picked up, want to drive on pothole free roads and drink clean water, then pay the tax.

But property taxes are too high, especially in Texas.

If we had any private schools I would send my son to one, I pay for my trash service, my roads are full of washboards, I get my water from a well and from what I have seen our property taxes are higher than comparable properties in Texas.

cowboy1964
06-12-2012, 13:53
So every person in N. Dakota is "very rich"?

G17Jake
06-12-2012, 17:03
I know people up there and have asked several about it and none of them thought it was a good idea.

How would you fund local schools without taxing the people in the school district? If state funds are used to fund schools and other local expenses, how do the cities and school districts make a budget? Would they have to ask the state for permission to build a new school building? Just asking....

If they have these things worked out, good for them. Not paying property tax would be great. I would have bought a larger house if that were the case.

Cavalry Doc
06-12-2012, 17:05
I had heard on the radio the other day that the measure is not expected to pass.

Any poll results?

BassCatcher
06-12-2012, 20:03
If this ever appeared on a ballot here I would vote for it in a heartbeat.

Our community just built a brand spanking new high school. Three gyms, two large parking lots and a pool. The football stadium would put some colleges to shame. Note that this is a rural area. There was nothing wrong with the old school whatsoever. I might also add that attendance for this school has declined each year since it was built.

Cavalry Doc
06-12-2012, 20:06
If this ever appeared on a ballot here I would vote for it in a heartbeat.

Our community just built a brand spanking new high school. Three gyms, two large parking lots and a pool. The football stadium would put some colleges to shame. Note that this is a rural area. There was nothing wrong with the old school whatsoever. I might also add that attendance for this school has declined each year since it was built.

I have noticed this trend too. The teachers, and their masters, the PRINCIPLES deserve a place to work on par with Notre Dam. They are the best, and they deserve to work in eye pleasing surroundings.

No kidding, I've been in high schools in the Dallas area that reminded me of palaces that I visited in Europe.

callihan_44
06-12-2012, 20:07
made a trip to protest my property taxes, housing market down taxes go up? fortunately they agreed to cut me some slack...the joys of renting from government

Ruble Noon
06-12-2012, 20:16
If this ever appeared on a ballot here I would vote for it in a heartbeat.

Our community just built a brand spanking new high school. Three gyms, two large parking lots and a pool. The football stadium would put some colleges to shame. Note that this is a rural area. There was nothing wrong with the old school whatsoever. I might also add that attendance for this school has declined each year since it was built.

What's the deal with all the damn parking lots? One school district passed a bond issue and they covered their playgrounds with concrete and remodeled all their buildings then they excused the kids on friday's at noon because they didn't have enough money to keep the kids in class.

Now my school district passed a bond issue and they want to build more parking lots, even at the elementary schools. Are elementary school kids driving their own cars to school nowadays?

Fed Five Oh
06-12-2012, 20:25
Letting the people decide what best for them instead of a politician. Whoever would of thunk our freedom lovers would have a problem with that?

Ruble Noon
06-12-2012, 20:28
Letting the people decide what best for them instead of a politician. Whoever would of thunk our freedom lovers would have a problem with that?

I don't think JB qualifies as a freedom lover.

Fed Five Oh
06-12-2012, 21:31
I don't think JB qualifies as a freedom lover.I didn't see where he had a problem with people deciding for themselves. Maybe I missed it. Show me.

JBnTX
06-12-2012, 22:00
I didn't see where he had a problem with people deciding for themselves. Maybe I missed it. Show me.

What he means to say is that since I'm not a Ron Paul supporter, I'm forever tarnished in his mind as a constitution hating, statist neocon who wouldn't know true freedom and liberty if someone shoved a bucket load of it up my ass.

:laughabove:

..

Chronos
06-12-2012, 22:59
People are slowly waking up to the unpleasant reality that they don't and can't own property -- they can only rent it from the government. As long as you have a decent income stream it doesn't seem such a threat, but without it you can literally lose your house to the government. This measure may not pass the first time it comes up for a vote, but the liberty movement is still in its infancy.

As for "teh schools," the whole concept is an incredible racket now that any kid can access all the knowledge in the world along with detailed lesson plans and computerized courses for free -- especially when you look at the product the government is delivering in return for being your permanent, lifelong landlord.

Chronos
06-12-2012, 23:09
I have noticed this trend too. The teachers, and their masters, the PRINCIPLES deserve a place to work on par with Notre Dam. They are the best, and they deserve to work in eye pleasing surroundings.


Yeah, it hasn't been about the kids for quite a while now -- but only recently has it become so transparently obvious and brazen about being a guaranteed government job program for the most useless college degrees.

callihan_44
06-13-2012, 06:13
People are slowly waking up to the unpleasant reality that they don't and can't own property -- they can only rent it from the government.

True indeed, I know someone who was trying to stay afloat after losing a job in this **** economy and pushed off paying a $1500.00 prop tax bill. He almost lost it but came up with the money, now he's selling the house.

BassCatcher
06-13-2012, 06:34
What's the deal with all the damn parking lots? One school district passed a bond issue and they covered their playgrounds with concrete and remodeled all their buildings then they excused the kids on friday's at noon because they didn't have enough money to keep the kids in class.

Now my school district passed a bond issue and they want to build more parking lots, even at the elementary schools. Are elementary school kids driving their own cars to school nowadays?

I can't explain the parking lot thing except to say that it seems most kids are driving nowadays. Two huge lots which could easily accommodate several hundred cars. I wonder, have they ever considered charging the students for the privilege of driving to school?

Nah.

Cavalry Doc
06-13-2012, 06:40
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/13/pf/north-dakota-property-tax/

So much for that.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 07:08
Any time the people end a tax is a good thing.

JBnTX
06-13-2012, 07:31
Any time the people end a tax is a good thing.


That's true of most taxes, but some taxes serve a purpose.

Like the property tax, which provides for schools, garbage collection and paved roads.

You just have to decide where your priorities are.

The people of North Dakota made the right decision.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 10:05
That's true of most taxes, but some taxes serve a purpose.

Like the property tax, which provides for schools, garbage collection and paved roads.

You just have to decide where your priorities are.

The people of North Dakota made the right decision.

It is about principles, JB. You wouldn't understand.

HarlDane
06-13-2012, 10:06
The people of North Dakota made the right decision.Right or wrong, agree or disagree, the important part is that the people of ND made the choice for themselves, based on their own priorities.

IMO, I'd rather pay a state tax than a federal tax and I'd rather pay a local tax than a state tax.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 10:08
IMO, I'd rather pay a state tax than a federal tax and I'd rather pay a local tax than a state tax.

Agreed 100%

JBnTX
06-13-2012, 13:26
It is about principles, JB. You wouldn't understand.


I guess the people of North Dakota don't understand either?

Looks like you're all alone with those so called principles.:rofl:

lancesorbenson
06-13-2012, 13:40
I guess the people of North Dakota don't understand either?

Looks like you're all alone with those so called principles.:rofl:

Do you believe in private property ownership or not? If you do then you should abhor the property tax regardless of what government services for which it provides. Property tax, similar to a feudal serfdom or the first plank of the communist manifest, means ultimately the government owns your property.

LibertyPatriot
06-13-2012, 13:45
I wonder, have they ever considered charging the students for the privilege of driving to school?

Our district charges the kids for a parking pass if they want to drive to school.

JBnTX
06-13-2012, 13:56
Do you believe in private property ownership or not? If you do then you should abhor the property tax regardless of what government services for which it provides. Property tax, similar to a feudal serfdom or the first plank of the communist manifest, means ultimately the government owns your property.


It's not about me or what I believe in, it's about the people of North Dakota deciding they'd rather keep paying their property taxes.

That's the correct decision for them.

I think it's great that we live in a free country where people are able to decide these things for themselves.

I don't like paying my property tax, but I want to keep receiving the benefits it brings so I cough up the money each year.

You anarchists need to understand that the government isn't out to get you and not all government is evil and part of some communist plot to take everything you own.

..

lancesorbenson
06-13-2012, 14:22
It's not about me or what I believe in, it's about the people of North Dakota deciding they'd rather keep paying their property taxes.

That's the correct decision for them.

I think it's great that we live in a free country where people are able to decide these things for themselves.

I don't like paying my property tax, but I want to keep receiving the benefits it brings so I cough up the money each year.

You anarchists need to understand that the government isn't out to get you and not all government is evil and part of some communist plot to take everything you own.

..

Do you think it's wrong for the government to seize a home that's bought and paid for because the owner did not pay their property tax?

JBnTX
06-13-2012, 14:48
Do you think it's wrong for the government to seize a home that's bought and paid for because the owner did not pay their property tax?


Yes, it's very wrong.

Chronos
06-13-2012, 15:01
I think it's great that we live in a free country where people are able to decide these things for themselves.

Cool -- so I get to decide for myself, now? Or do my two renters still get to outvote me on who ultimately owns my property?

Brucev
06-13-2012, 16:17
Re: Property taxes and voting on such taxes. ND made the right decision. Paying taxes is part of property ownership. If you can't afford the cost, you can't afford the cost. As to voting, that is the right and responsibility of all citizens, not just a small segment. Such voting is not qualified by property ownership. It is no different than voters deciding any other ballot issue.

lancesorbenson
06-13-2012, 16:32
Re: Property taxes and voting on such taxes. ND made the right decision. Paying taxes is part of property ownership. If you can't afford the cost, you can't afford the cost. As to voting, that is the right and responsibility of all citizens, not just a small segment. Such voting is not qualified by property ownership. It is no different than voters deciding any other ballot issue.

So you don't believe in private property ownership? Because you can't actually own something if the government can steal it if you don't pay what they say you owe. That's not ownership by any stretch.

HarlDane
06-13-2012, 16:44
So you don't believe in private property ownership? Because you can't actually own something if the government can steal it if you don't pay what they say you owe. That's not ownership by any stretch.Most assets you own can be seized to settle a debt, provided the debtee wants to go through the legal process. That doesn't mean you don't hold legal title to the asset.

I'd also argue that being penalized for failing to comply with a duly passed law, after you are given due process is hardly stealing. In fact, categorizing it as such implies you are either extremely misguided or are being purposely misleading to further your argument.

G17Jake
06-13-2012, 17:22
http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/364019/


Although oil and gas revenues are gushing, many officials said it would be a mistake for governments to rely too heavily on such a volatile revenue source, which fluctuates with oil booms and busts.



Measure 2 would amend the North Dakota Constitution to eliminate the property tax and leave it to the Legislature to replace the revenues a formula for chaos and centralized decision-making, opponents argued.

Walt_NC
06-13-2012, 17:31
Sweet Jesus. I actually agree with something JB said. And I'm even impressed that he didn't bite on the troll nonsense. Well played, sir.

Chronos
06-13-2012, 17:49
Most assets you own can be seized to settle a debt, provided the debtee wants to go through the legal process. That doesn't mean you don't hold legal title to the asset.

I'd also argue that being penalized for failing to comply with a duly passed law, after you are given due process is hardly stealing. In fact, categorizing it as such implies you are either extremely misguided or are being purposely misleading to further your argument.

No, it simply means he recognizes what the government does without a bunch of euphemisms to disguise the actual content and its moral implications.

You can call it a "duly passed law" or "settling a debt" but ultimately it comes down to strangers showing up on land your ancestors may have owned for generations and demanding money because you live there, or else they take it from you and throw you out on the street. And the entirety of the moral justification amounts to some other strangers having "voted on it."

You can label it however you want, but it doesn't change the bare reality and moral status of such acts.

JBnTX
06-13-2012, 17:52
Sweet Jesus. I actually agree with something JB said. And I'm even impressed that he didn't bite on the troll nonsense. Well played, sir.


I'm learning, but it is sometimes difficult to restrain myself.

Glock30Eric
06-13-2012, 19:00
It's not about me or what I believe in, it's about the people of North Dakota deciding they'd rather keep paying their property taxes.

That's the correct decision for them.

I think it's great that we live in a free country where people are able to decide these things for themselves.

I don't like paying my property tax, but I want to keep receiving the benefits it brings so I cough up the money each year.

You anarchists need to understand that the government isn't out to get you and not all government is evil and part of some communist plot to take everything you own.

..

Why don't you donate some of your money to IRS? They are accepting a donation.

Outdoor Hub mobile, the outdoor information engine

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 19:22
I guess the people of North Dakota don't understand either?

Looks like you're all alone with those so called principles.:rofl:

Not alone, JB, but definitely in the minority.

Enjoy the comfort of your majority in the socialist paradise you long for. Folks like me will just slowly fade away.

Like in Greece

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 19:27
It's not about me or what I believe in, it's about the people of North Dakota deciding they'd rather keep paying their property taxes.



..

No, its about a majority imposing its will on a minority. Tyranny.

That's the correct decision for them.



Not according to the citizens who voted against it.

I think it's great that we live in a free country where people are able to decide these things for themselves.



The didn't decide for themselves. A majority imposed its will to steal the money of a minority to suit its needs.

If the people decided for themselves, the tax would be voluntary.

Think about that, JB. What is wrong with a voluntary property tax?

Brucev
06-13-2012, 19:29
So you don't believe in private property ownership? Because you can't actually own something if the government can steal it if you don't pay what they say you owe. That's not ownership by any stretch.

Ownership of property is not at issue. The taxing of property is at issue. The majority of voters in ND affirmed tax on property as a means of generating necessary revenue to fund those programs they deem worthwhile. Those who disagree of course can use any particular phrasing they wish to use to try to cast the issue in whatever light they think will best serve their purpose.

Reality is that no one gets to live their lives exactly as they please without having to take into account the interest of others. In any structured society, decisions as to the whole of society will necessarily require individuals to accept their reasonable portion of the cost of implementing those decisions.

There is no difference in property tax, sales tax, payroll tax, etc. Just as there is no difference in those who complain about such taxes... or the supposed injustice of having to pay taxes for community services, etc. They suppose that they should only pay for what directly benefits them... or what they particularly want to support. They resent reality... that they are part of society and are not free to ignore their own obligations to society.

lancesorbenson
06-13-2012, 19:30
Most assets you own can be seized to settle a debt, provided the debtee wants to go through the legal process. That doesn't mean you don't hold legal title to the asset.

Apples and oranges. If I borrow money and don't pay it back i.e. debt, then my creditors have every right to recompense. Property tax is hardly the same thing.

I'd also argue that being penalized for failing to comply with a duly passed law, after you are given due process is hardly stealing. In fact, categorizing it as such implies you are either extremely misguided or are being purposely misleading to further your argument.

If I own a piece of property and enough people get together and say I have to pay them just for the right to retain my property that is coercion. If I don't pay and they forcibly take my land, it is theft. You can throw around due process and duly passed law all you want, it is the forcible taking of property plain and simple. Property tax, like so much of government, is simply protection money.

lancesorbenson
06-13-2012, 19:34
Ownership of property is not at issue. The taxing of property is at issue. The majority of voters in ND affirmed tax on property as a means of generating necessary revenue to fund those programs they deem worthwhile. Those who disagree of course can use any particular phrasing they wish to use to try to cast the issue in whatever light they think will best serve their purpose.

Reality is that no one gets to live their lives exactly as they please without having to take into account the interest of others. In any structured society, decisions as to the whole of society will necessarily require individuals to accept their reasonable portion of the cost of implementing those decisions.

There is no difference in property tax, sales tax, payroll tax, etc. Just as there is no difference in those who complain about such taxes... or the supposed injustice of having to pay taxes for community services, etc. They suppose that they should only pay for what directly benefits them... or what they particularly want to support. They resent reality... that they are part of society and are not free to ignore their own obligations to society.

So you don't believe in private property ownership? Got it. You may as well have quoted the first plank comrade.

chickenwing
06-13-2012, 19:37
Apples and oranges. If I borrow money and don't pay it back i.e. debt, then my creditors have every right to recompense. Property tax is hardly the same thing.



If I own a piece of property and enough people get together and say I have to pay them just for the right to retain my property that is coercion. If I don't pay and they forcibly take my land, it is theft. You can throw around due process and duly passed law all you want, it is the forcible taking of property plain and simple. Property tax, like so much of government, is simply protection money.

Well said.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 19:46
Ownership of property is not at issue. The taxing of property is at issue. The majority of voters in ND affirmed tax on property as a means of generating necessary revenue to fund those programs they deem worthwhile. Those who disagree of course can use any particular phrasing they wish to use to try to cast the issue in whatever light they think will best serve their purpose.

Reality is that no one gets to live their lives exactly as they please without having to take into account the interest of others. In any structured society, decisions as to the whole of society will necessarily require individuals to accept their reasonable portion of the cost of implementing those decisions.



REASONABLE. A favorite qualifier of the Progressives. You really don't miss a beat.

There is no difference in property tax, sales tax, payroll tax, etc. Very ignorant statement

Just as there is no difference in those who complain about such taxes... or the supposed injustice of having to pay taxes for community services, etc. They suppose that they should only pay for what directly benefits them... or what they particularly want to support. They resent reality... that they are part of society and are not free to ignore their own obligations to society. What obligation?

The only obligation a free man should have is to live his life in pursuit of his own interests and not interfere with another's pursuit of his.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 19:48
So you don't believe in private property ownership? Got it. You may as well have quoted the first plank comrade.

The Fabian Socialist is strong with him.

G-19
06-13-2012, 20:04
No, its about a majority imposing its will on a minority. Tyranny.



Not according to the citizens who voted against it.



The didn't decide for themselves. A majority imposed its will to steal the money of a minority to suit its needs.

If the people decided for themselves, the tax would be voluntary.

Think about that, JB. What is wrong with a voluntary property tax?

Well, ain't that the LP platform? State rights and all. I guess those people who are against it are free to move to a state without property tax.

G17Jake
06-13-2012, 20:10
If the people decided for themselves, the tax would be voluntary.

Think about that, JB. What is wrong with a voluntary property tax?

The people of ND weren't voting on a voluntary tax.

From what I read (and posted) it sounds like a vote to replace property tax revenue with TBD later.... and they didn't like the unknown.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 20:15
Well, ain't that the LP platform? State rights and all. I guess those people who are against it are free to move to a state without property tax.

Not the brightest reply possible. I don't see where states rights has anything to do with this.

But you are correct. They are free to move to another state without a property tax.

G-19
06-13-2012, 20:27
Not the brightest reply possible. I don't see where states rights has anything to do with this.

But you are correct. They are free to move to another state without a property tax.

Let's see:

On one hand you LPers scream about the Fed. Govt. should not be taxing people, they should not make laws that affect the states, the people of each state should decide the laws they want.

On the other, when the people of a state make a law for them you then complain about it it and say how wrong they are.

Well, you don't live in that state, so why do you care what they do? Don't they have the right to decide for themselves? Or should they just pass laws you approve of?

This is one reasons the LP platform is doomed to failure. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You are hypocrites.

OBTW, the little insult is quite funny coming from such a little, irrelevant "man".

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 20:34
Let's see:

On one hand you LPers scream about the Fed. Govt. should not be taxing people, they should not make laws that affect the states, the people of each state should decide the laws they want.

On the other, when the people of a state make a law for them you then complain about it it and say how wrong they are.

Well, you don't live in that state, so why do you care what they do? Don't they have the right to decide for themselves? Or should they just pass laws you approve of?

This is one reasons the LP platform is doomed to failure. You talk out of both sides of your mouth. You are hypocrites.

OBTW, the little insult is quite funny coming from such a little, irrelevant "man".

You get all the prisoner poop cleaned up yet?

What the people in North Dakota did was the topic of the thread, genius.

Perhaps you missed my first post in the thread about principles?

Strange to see a person who relies on taxes to eat, coming to a thread to defend taxes.

G-19
06-13-2012, 20:37
You anarchists need to understand that the government isn't out to get you and not all government is evil and part of some communist plot to take everything you own.

..

You just don't understand, Alex Jones says the Govt..is out to get us. Haven't you seen the FEMA death camps? Hey, what about the conclave, the Bilderbergers, and the Illuminate?

G-19
06-13-2012, 20:40
You get all the prisoner poop cleaned up yet?

What the people in North Dakota did was the topic of the thread, genius.

Perhaps you missed my first post in the thread about principles?

Strange to see a person who relies on taxes to eat, coming to a thread to defend taxes.

Man, you guys sure get defensive when someone proves how silly the Libertarian Party is.


BTW, My post was regarding the OP ( the one you posted under your other screen name). I was just asking why you are complaining about something another state decided for themselves.

Defending taxes, no. Defending ND's rights to do as they see fit, absolutely.

Ruble Noon
06-13-2012, 20:40
You get all the prisoner poop cleaned up yet?

What the people in North Dakota did was the topic of the thread, genius.

Perhaps you missed my first post in the thread about principles?

Strange to see a person who relies on taxes to eat, coming to a thread to defend taxes.

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Cavalry Doc
06-13-2012, 20:54
This bat you keep using to bash honest working people over the head is getting rather flaccid.

Face it, there are employers out there, they advertise, and people show up to apply and work. To us, it really doesn't matter that much whether it is Mr. John Doe, the local rich dude, or Uncle Sam. It's a job. We do things that need to get done, for the most part at least. I can't speak for everyone, but I earn less than my colleagues in the private sector locally. But I get to take care of some pretty neat folks, that are actually a little bit better than the average citizen today.'

I still do pretty well, I make about 2.8 times the median income in my county. That's less than the going rate, so, I don't mind. Figure that makes me a bargain for the tax payer.

And yes, I pay taxes. My paying taxes might not be a net increase to the treasury, but Ruble is working on fixing that for all of us. (keep in touch)

If you Don't like the job I am doing, go ahead and fire me, you'll just increase my standard of living.

I guess what I am trying to say, is don't be so quick to pass judgement. There are heroes and zeros in every group, including those that are employed by the private sector. Generally speaking, generalizing is a bad thing.

stevelyn
06-13-2012, 20:58
That's true of most taxes, but some taxes serve a purpose.

Like the property tax, which provides for schools, garbage collection and paved roads.

You just have to decide where your priorities are.

The people of North Dakota made the right decision.

Property taxes are an abomination and in direct opposition to the concept of private property and private property rights and in most cases, places a heavy disproportional amount of the burden on property owners.

If you feel the need to pay more, you can always pull a "Buffet" and write out a bigger check come tax time.

Naelbis
06-13-2012, 21:00
I find it funny that so many people who don't live here have such strong opinions on our tax structure. Property taxes were written into the state constitution when it was first ratified so they are part of ND constitutional law. We considered getting rid of them, but since the measure was poorly written and extremely vague about how the state was to replace the local revenues 80% of voters rejected it. I expect to see the supporters learn from that mistake and come back with something more defined and thought out soon. BTW, you have to be three years in arrears on your taxes and have a court hearing prior to the Sheriff being able to seize your property for unpaid taxes so its not like there isn't plenty of due process.

Cavalry Doc
06-13-2012, 21:01
Property taxes are an abomination and in direct opposition to the concept of private property and private property rights and in most cases, places a heavy disproportional amount of the burden on property owners.

If you feel the need to pay more, you can always pull a "Buffet" and write out a bigger check come tax time.

I'm with you on property taxes. Once paid for, it should be yours free and clear.

Local governments would be more fair with a consumption tax. I'd prefer no tax, but that's a pipe dream.

Chronos
06-13-2012, 21:13
I'm with you on property taxes. Once paid for, it should be yours free and clear.

Local governments would be more fair with a consumption tax. I'd prefer no tax, but that's a pipe dream.

There is definitely a heirarchy of evil when it comes to taxes, with property taxes and personal income taxes pretty near the top, and consumption taxes paid via corporations (who owe their shield of "corporate personhood" directly to the government) near the bottom.

It's not even so much the amount you end up paying -- it's the assumption that the government owns your person (in personal income tax) and that you can't own property (in property tax) and the implied punishment for disagreement that is the really, really objectionable part.

stevelyn
06-13-2012, 21:18
I'm with you on property taxes. Once paid for, it should be yours free and clear.

Local governments would be more fair with a consumption tax. I'd prefer no tax, but that's a pipe dream.

I have no problem with a consumption tax.

G17Jake
06-13-2012, 21:23
Some people I have come across on other political forums aren't happy just taxing your property, they want a tax on your net worth, in addition to property tax.

G17Jake
06-13-2012, 21:26
I find it funny that so many people who don't live here have such strong opinions on our tax structure. Property taxes were written into the state constitution when it was first ratified so they are part of ND constitutional law. We considered getting rid of them, but since the measure was poorly written and extremely vague about how the state was to replace the local revenues 80% of voters rejected it. I expect to see the supporters learn from that mistake and come back with something more defined and thought out soon. BTW, you have to be three years in arrears on your taxes and have a court hearing prior to the Sheriff being able to seize your property for unpaid taxes so its not like there isn't plenty of due process.

That agrees with what I read in the online Fargo Forum.

lancesorbenson
06-13-2012, 21:36
I find it funny that so many people who don't live here have such strong opinions on our tax structure. Property taxes were written into the state constitution when it was first ratified so they are part of ND constitutional law.

I think the conversation has moved on to the principle of property tax in general. I for one believe the people in ND or any other state can knock themselves out voting for or against property tax. On the general principle however, the property tax is arguably the most egregious tax there is.

BTW, you have to be three years in arrears on your taxes and have a court hearing prior to the Sheriff being able to seize your property for unpaid taxes so its not like there isn't plenty of due process.

Well if you can't afford to pay, due process doesn't mean squat. Even if you supposedly own it outright the government can take it from you for not giving them a cut. Due process in this case is sort of like a rapist being nice enough to give his victim a little foreplay before the action starts.

SDDL-UP
06-13-2012, 21:46
Property tax SHOULD be abolished everywhere! It is nothing more than "renting" from the government, plain and simple. There are plenty of ways of collecting taxes without forcing all landowners to become renters...

Walt_NC
06-13-2012, 21:55
No, its about a majority imposing its will on a minority. Tyranny.

So is all democracy tyranny or just when you disagree with the outcome?

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 22:05
So is all democracy tyranny or just when you disagree with the outcome?

Real nice false dichotomy

Walt_NC
06-13-2012, 22:20
Real nice false dichotomy

Really? The the people of ND decided, by popular vote, not to repeal the state property tax and you claimed the act to be that of a government exercising absolute power without regard tothe will of the public (ie; tyranny)...and I'm the one committing logical fallacies? Hi Pot, I'm Kettle.

G19G20
06-13-2012, 22:27
Most assets you own can be seized to settle a debt, provided the debtee wants to go through the legal process. That doesn't mean you don't hold legal title to the asset.

What a terrible example. Someone suing someone else for damages (debt repayment, in your example) is very different than the government taking your property for not paying an imposed tax. What harm can the government prove it suffered? They didn't give me anything nor did I take anything from them. Sounds like you've swallowed the notion that government owns everything and only allows you to keep what it decides you should have, whether it's your income, your home, etc. When you sue someone you have to show the exact damages you suffered. Government apparently gets a pass. Your example is terrible.


I'd also argue that being penalized for failing to comply with a duly passed law, after you are given due process is hardly stealing. In fact, categorizing it as such implies you are either extremely misguided or are being purposely misleading to further your argument.

Even though it's the government itself that decides what the "value" of your property is at any given time and bills you accordingly?

My area has been HAMMERED by the property tax revaluation process. House appraisals (the formulas which were naturally devised by the government itself) DOUBLED and TRIPLED from several years ago. These houses would not sell for anywhere near what the gov't is claiming their value is but gov't is still in the bubble mentality. The "due process" to challenge their assessments is so screwed up that local councilmen are running on it as a campaign platform. They're winning too. The "due process" you speak of is basically a gov't employee deciding to cut you a break or not and that person's decision is final.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 22:28
Really? The the people of ND decided, by popular vote, not to repeal the state property tax and you claimed the act to be that of a government exercising absolute power without regard tothe will of the public (ie; tyranny)...and I'm the one committing logical fallacies? Hi Pot, I'm Kettle.

Tyranny

of a

Majority

Brucev
06-13-2012, 22:35
So you don't believe in private property ownership? Got it. You may as well have quoted the first plank comrade.

I do not consider that your idea of private property ownership is anything other than your effort to pretend that you can live in society without any responsibility to society. Of course, you can pretend all you want to. Knock yourself out. Children play all sorts of pretend games. You can act like a child and play silly games. But, there comes a time when you have to put your childish ways aside and conduct yourself like an adult. That is reality. Reality is that adults acting in society must pay the cost of maintaining the structures of their society. If you are not happy about that, then you must grow up and learn to accept your adult responsibilities. Your problem is not that you are concerned about property taxes. You just don't want to pay for what you don't like... or what doesn't benefit you directly. If you don't like it, organize and act politically to effect the sort of change you think best. Get others to support your position. Or, learn how you can work with others to accomplish what your consider best. But whining about how the govt. is stealing yours or someone else's property is simply the empty rambling of a simpleton.

Brucev
06-13-2012, 22:45
[QUOTE=certifiedfunds;19086761]REASONABLE. A favorite qualifier of the Progressives. You really don't miss a beat.

You can always be counted upon to advocate for that position that is not reasonable, the sure sign of the irrational. Such people are commonly found wandering around making all sorts of odd noises.

Very ignorant statement. The truth is often inconvenient.

What obligation? The only obligation a free man should have is to live his life in pursuit of his own interests and not interfere with another's pursuit of his.

A man in society is not free to do as he pleases. That would be anarchy. A man within society is free within the law as established by society. It is that simple. If you are afraid of society... you can get help. There are doctors who can help you overcome your problem. You don't have to live in such mindless fear. You can live better than that. Contact your local mental health professional.

G19G20
06-13-2012, 22:48
I do not consider that your idea of private property ownership is anything other than your effort to pretend that you can live in society without any responsibility to society. Of course, you can pretend all you want to. Knock yourself out. Children play all sorts of pretend games. You can act like a child and play silly games. But, there comes a time when you have to put your childish ways aside and conduct yourself like an adult. That is reality. Reality is that adults acting in society must pay the cost of maintaining the structures of their society. If you are not happy about that, then you must grow up and learn to accept your adult responsibilities. Your problem is not that you are concerned about property taxes. You just don't want to pay for what you don't like... or what doesn't benefit you directly. If you don't like it, organize and act politically to effect the sort of change you think best. Get others to support your position. Or, learn how you can work with others to accomplish what your consider best. But whining about how the govt. is stealing yours or someone else's property is simply the empty rambling of a simpleton.

Congrats on creating the most condescending and pompous post I've read all day. As if "be an adult and pay up" is some sort of logical argument. You must be a gov't employee. As an individual, why should I be forced to pay for someone else's conveniences or desires? Are you suggesting roads wouldn't get built if there's no government pointing a gun at me? Or fires wouldn't get put out if my local government run fire station didn't exist? Does Engine #4 have exclusive rights to water? The lack of self sufficiency and "gov't will do it" mentality in this country is one of the things that's killing it softly. Nevermind that gov't is notoriously inefficient at pretty much everything and wastes more than it contributes...

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 22:48
[QUOTE=certifiedfunds;19086761]REASONABLE. A favorite qualifier of the Progressives. You really don't miss a beat.

You can always be counted upon to advocate for that position that is not reasonable, the sure sign of the irrational. Such people are commonly found wandering around making all sorts of odd noises.

Very ignorant statement. The truth is often inconvenient.

What obligation? The only obligation a free man should have is to live his life in pursuit of his own interests and not interfere with another's pursuit of his.

A man in society is not free to do as he pleases. That would be anarchy. A man within society is free within the law as established by society. It is that simple. If you are afraid of society... you can get help. There are doctors who can help you overcome your problem. You don't have to live in such mindless fear. You can live better than that. Contact your local mental health professional.

Fabian

Socialist

(so smart but can't figure out the tricky quote function)

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 22:50
Congrats on creating the most condescending and pompous post I've read all day. As if "be an adult and pay up" is some sort of logical argument. You must be a gov't employee. As an individual, why should I be forced to pay for someone else's conveniences or desires? Are you suggesting roads wouldn't get built if there's no government pointing a gun at me? Or fires wouldn't get put out if my local government run fire station didn't exist? Does Engine #4 have exclusive rights to water? The lack of self sufficiency and "gov't will do it" mentality in this country is one of the things that's killing it softly. Nevermind that gov't is notoriously inefficient at pretty much everything and wastes more than it contributes...

Of all the delicious irony, some time back he posted that he runs a non-profit.

It was amidst some nonsense where he claims that running a non-profit is the same as running a business for profit.

G19G20
06-13-2012, 22:53
Lemme guess, his non-profit is funded mainly by government largesse yet his non-profit pays no taxes back in. Irony indeed.

Walt_NC
06-13-2012, 22:54
Tyranny

of a

Majority

I'll bite. What makes this specific vote tyranny of the majority and not democracy in action?

To keep you intellectually honest (and pre-empt any "all taxes are oppression" nonsense), I'll remind you that the legislation put to vote was poorly worded, dictating that the loss of property tax revenue was to be replaced by a yet-to-be-determined source.

I'm going to call it a night but look forward to reading your response in the morning.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 22:59
I'll bite. What makes this specific vote tyranny of the majority and not democracy in action?

To keep you intellectually honest (and pre-empt any "all taxes are oppression" nonsense), I'll remind you that the legislation put to vote was poorly worded, dictating that the loss of property tax revenue was to be replaced by a yet-to-be-determined source.

I'm going to call it a night but look forward to reading your response in the morning.

Another false dichotomy. You're really good at this!

Democracy in action can be tyranny of a majority.

A good example is when a majority votes to seize the property of a minority under threat of fine or imprisonment.

certifiedfunds
06-13-2012, 23:00
Lemme guess, his non-profit is funded mainly by government largesse yet his non-profit pays no taxes back in. Irony indeed.

I suspect he runs a church.

Chronos
06-13-2012, 23:03
I do not consider that your idea of private property ownership is anything other than your effort to pretend that you can live in society without any responsibility to society. Of course, you can pretend all you want to. Knock yourself out. Children play all sorts of pretend games. You can act like a child and play silly games. But, there comes a time when you have to put your childish ways aside and conduct yourself like an adult. That is reality. Reality is that adults acting in society must pay the cost of maintaining the structures of their society. If you are not happy about that, then you must grow up and learn to accept your adult responsibilities. Your problem is not that you are concerned about property taxes. You just don't want to pay for what you don't like... or what doesn't benefit you directly. If you don't like it, organize and act politically to effect the sort of change you think best. Get others to support your position. Or, learn how you can work with others to accomplish what your consider best. But whining about how the govt. is stealing yours or someone else's property is simply the empty rambling of a simpleton.

Government is not "society."

Government is the opposite of civilized society -- every single thing it does is accomplished by force, violence, and threats.

If your idea of "society" cannot function without violence against innocent, productive 3rd parties, you are not civilized but are a savage by proxy.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 09:18
Congrats on creating the most condescending and pompous post I've read all day. As if "be an adult and pay up" is some sort of logical argument. You must be a gov't employee. As an individual, why should I be forced to pay for someone else's conveniences or desires? Are you suggesting roads wouldn't get built if there's no government pointing a gun at me? Or fires wouldn't get put out if my local government run fire station didn't exist? Does Engine #4 have exclusive rights to water? The lack of self sufficiency and "gov't will do it" mentality in this country is one of the things that's killing it softly. Nevermind that gov't is notoriously inefficient at pretty much everything and wastes more than it contributes... Govt. employee? No. When the govt. points a gun at you and demands that you do anything, please be sure to post the details so everyone can lament your sad experience. Your other wining is just about the same as children being required to share in cleaning up a play space, etc. It is no different. :wavey:

Brucev
06-14-2012, 09:19
[quote=Brucev;19087520]

Fabian

Socialist

(so smart but can't figure out the tricky quote function)

Smart? Rather intelligent, etc. As to the quote function... simply delight in providing you an opportunity to be annoyed.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 09:22
Of all the delicious irony, some time back he posted that he runs a non-profit.

It was amidst some nonsense where he claims that running a non-profit is the same as running a business for profit.

Profit/non-profit... both have to deal with the realities of the bottom line. Both have to satisfy a clientele. And... everyday... there are those that are effective and those that go out of business... everyday. If you can't satisfy your clientele, etc., you don't make it regardless of if you are a for profit or non-profit.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 09:24
Lemme guess, his non-profit is funded mainly by government largesse yet his non-profit pays no taxes back in. Irony indeed.

Government largess? That only goes to welfare programs... such as those administered by the dod, etc. :whistling:

Brucev
06-14-2012, 09:26
I'll bite. What makes this specific vote tyranny of the majority and not democracy in action?

To keep you intellectually honest (and pre-empt any "all taxes are oppression" nonsense), I'll remind you that the legislation put to vote was poorly worded, dictating that the loss of property tax revenue was to be replaced by a yet-to-be-determined source.

I'm going to call it a night but look forward to reading your response in the morning.

Be careful. You are taking a big risk. Because you are thinking. And... you are making the mistake of thinking that those who react with knee jerks are also thinking... instead of reacting with knee jerks.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 09:44
Government is not "society."

Government is the opposite of civilized society -- every single thing it does is accomplished by force, violence, and threats.

If your idea of "society" cannot function without violence against innocent, productive 3rd parties, you are not civilized but are a savage by proxy.

From hunter/gatherer, family clusters and tribalism forward to the modern nation state, people have organized themselves. The social structures that have developed are the result of many centuries. Govt. is simply a tool by which people organize and effect their shared will. If some do not fully agree with that will, fine. The majority acting in concert cannot be expected to sacrifice their "rights" on behalf of the convenience of the few. That would allow the minority to exercise tyranny over the majority... which is an obvious moral outrage.

A civilized society is variously defined. The term can be applied very accurately to diverse societies, the overwhelming vast majority of which have been societies which operated through the mechanism of government... demonstrated at the family, tribal, regional and national level. To suppose some sort of evil attaches to govt. and that some sort of purity attaches to individualism is nothing more than an assumption... perhaps rooted in idealism. To state otherwise is a demonstration of simple ignorance or willful deceit.

No society operates on the simply expectation that all persons will choose to be compliant. The facts are that all social structures demonstrate choices made by those in control (either the few or the majority) and enforce those choices by necessary means. In this the U.S. is not unique. It has been so every since Washington in the post-revolutionary era used armed troops to act against farmers who were protesting the taxation of whiskey etc. Opining about those styled innocent or characterized as third-party is just much ado about nothing.

Naelbis
06-14-2012, 10:56
Tyranny

of a

Majority
I'll just once again point out that property taxes are part of the ND State constitution and have been since it was initially adopted. We just rejected amending it because of the poor wording of the measure...:upeyes:

PawDog
06-14-2012, 11:13
No one enjoys paying property taxes on their real estate or homes, and we all abhor it, especially when our homes and real estate holdings are paid for as mine are. The largest portion I pay annually goes to the local school district, and I have no school age children, but I subsidize the communities childrens' educations, even those who are renters and pay no property tax. I even have to pay on my undeveloped real estate in other counties where I don't live.

Those here complaining about it, either you currently don't own real estate, or you refuse to pay property taxes for your property, contending it violates your freedoms. If so, I assume you have sued your taxing districts to overturn the taxes and are presently pending the outcome of the litigation. Or you've grieved the tax procedures to your local representatives to change the taxing regulations in your area or state, and are pending the outcome of your grievance.

Or, most likely, I suspect if you own real estate, you pay the taxes when due, or via your mortgage escrow account, and then simply grumble and complain about it here, without doing anything to actually challenge the constitutionality of the taxes, either via litigation or state/local grievance procedures.

Complaining about taxation on anonymous Internet forums accomplishes and proves nothing. Your time would be better spent challenging these things you don't agree with, or presenting alternate revenue raising procedures to your state or local representatives.

lancesorbenson
06-14-2012, 15:00
The largest portion I pay annually goes to the local school district, and I have no school age children, but I subsidize the communities childrens' educations, even those who are renters and pay no property tax.

My renters--as well as most renters I'd guess--pay property tax, whether they know it or not.

Those here complaining about it, either you currently don't own real estate, or you refuse to pay property taxes for your property, contending it violates your freedoms. If so, I assume you have sued your taxing districts to overturn the taxes and are presently pending the outcome of the litigation. Or you've grieved the tax procedures to your local representatives to change the taxing regulations in your area or state, and are pending the outcome of your grievance.

Or, most likely, I suspect if you own real estate, you pay the taxes when due, or via your mortgage escrow account, and then simply grumble and complain about it here, without doing anything to actually challenge the constitutionality of the taxes, either via litigation or state/local grievance procedures.

Complaining about taxation on anonymous Internet forums accomplishes and proves nothing. Your time would be better spent challenging these things you don't agree with, or presenting alternate revenue raising procedures to your state or local representatives.

Ever stop to consider that some of us seek legal and political change regarding the issues discussed here AND complain on anonymous message boards? What's with people trying to tell people to "quit your whining" on these boards? There's pretty much a thread whining about everything the libs do--rightfully so I'd add--and nobody thinks to say, "Quit your whining about Obama and the libtards and do something about it." GTPI is built on complaints, discussions, and even whining.

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 15:02
I'll just once again point out that property taxes are part of the ND State constitution and have been since it was initially adopted. We just rejected amending it because of the poor wording of the measure...:upeyes:

I'll accept that Naeblis. I think the discussion has gone beyond ND.

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 15:03
Profit/non-profit... both have to deal with the realities of the bottom line. Both have to satisfy a clientele. And... everyday... there are those that are effective and those that go out of business... everyday. If you can't satisfy your clientele, etc., you don't make it regardless of if you are a for profit or non-profit.

What blissful ignorance.

Tell us: Is your parsonage tax exempt?

lancesorbenson
06-14-2012, 15:04
empty rambling of a simpleton.

Right back at ya!

lancesorbenson
06-14-2012, 15:05
What blissful ignorance.

Tell us: Is your parsonage tax exempt?

I hope you've braced yourself for another collectivist screed.

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 15:16
I hope you've braced yourself for another collectivist screed.

Fabian

Socialist

Brucev
06-14-2012, 15:19
Another false dichotomy. You're really good at this!

Democracy in action can be tyranny of a majority.

A good example is when a majority votes to seize the property of a minority under threat of fine or imprisonment.

When it comes to democracy in action and the supposed tyranny of a majority experience trumps theory every time. Please do provide an example in U.S. history of when a majority of citizens have voted to seize the property of a minority of citizens under threat of fine or imprisonment.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 15:20
What blissful ignorance.

Tell us: Is your parsonage tax exempt?

I own my own home. I pay the normal property taxes, etc. associated with such ownership. I always have. Not only have I always paid the normal property taxes on my home, I have also paid the property taxes on the home of my parents and the home of my brother. As these taxes are due in October and November, it makes a nice Christmas present. Nothing like being able to send a Christmas card with a little receipt showing that their taxes are paid if full.

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 17:51
When it comes to democracy in action and the supposed tyranny of a majority experience trumps theory every time. Please do provide an example in U.S. history of when a majority of citizens have voted to seize the property of a minority of citizens under threat of fine or imprisonment.

Every state where a tax initiative is on ballot and passed.

Every day via their "democratically" elected representatives in the case of every welfare program including Social Security.

I understand your political ideology but surely you aren't ignorant of the facts.

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 17:53
I own my own home. I pay the normal property taxes, etc. associated with such ownership. I always have. Not only have I always paid the normal property taxes on my home, I have also paid the property taxes on the home of my parents and the home of my brother. As these taxes are due in October and November, it makes a nice Christmas present. Nothing like being able to send a Christmas card with a little receipt showing that their taxes are paid if full.

That is just bizarre.

The fact that you would associate tax payments with a Christmas present even more so.

lancesorbenson
06-14-2012, 18:04
That is just bizarre.

The fact that you would associate tax payments with a Christmas present even more so.

Paying property taxes as a Christmas present really captures the reason for the season doesn't it?

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 18:07
Paying property taxes as a Christmas present really captures the reason for the season doesn't it?

Perhaps to a Fabian Socialist.

I can see it now, sitting around a nice fire on Christmas Eve talking about their favorite government programs....smugly.....because their taxes are paid.

Ruble Noon
06-14-2012, 18:21
Fabian

Socialist


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Fabian_Forte_1959.JPG/220px-Fabian_Forte_1959.JPG

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQzg_ZJ-HtLxFDl55j_ZpcGD5tFnisuop1RYoPCBGNOLU-Kz7s

certifiedfunds
06-14-2012, 19:48
edited

Brucev
06-14-2012, 22:11
Every state where a tax initiative is on ballot and passed.

Every day via their "democratically" elected representatives in the case of every welfare program including Social Security.

I understand your political ideology but surely you aren't ignorant of the facts.

You have the right to your own opinion. Facts are hard things. You evidently find the facts to be to hard. Perhaps you will grow up enough to be able to handle the facts. Until then, you will have to struggle.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 22:19
Paying property taxes as a Christmas present really captures the reason for the season doesn't it? Giving is very much a part of Christian faith. It is always best to give good gifts rather than cheap trinkets. Would you choose a trinket over a substantial gift that would actually help your family? For my part, I will continue to give to my family by paying their property taxes. They then can use the money they save for the needs of their family and children. There is great joy in such giving... for everyone involved.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 22:22
Perhaps to a Fabian Socialist.

I can see it now, sitting around a nice fire on Christmas Eve talking about their favorite government programs....smugly.....because their taxes are paid.

We seldom sit around a fire on Christmas eve as we are at Christmas Eve Communion. Afterward we usually are on our way to the airport for a trip. As to taxes, they are paid the same way any other bill is paid... on time.

Brucev
06-14-2012, 22:22
That is just bizarre.

The fact that you would associate tax payments with a Christmas present even more so.

When I have paid the taxes on the home of my parents or brother, they have most certainly considered it a really good Christmas gift. From time to time I have also made house payments for my brothers. In fact we've been known to help each other with contracts to pay for vehicles, tuition, etc. I like to give good gifts to my family members. What you think of that practice is irrelevant.